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J-10
01-14-2008, 09:50 AM
http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/world/20080113TDY08001.htm
Francis Fukuyama Special to The Yomiuri Shimbun

One of the biggest questions concerning the future of East Asia will be the internal evolution of the Chinese political system. China is undergoing breakneck economic development and emerging as a global superpower under the leadership of an authoritarian Communist Party that cannot legitimate itself either democratically or on the basis of its own Marxist-Leninist ideology. Is this model sustainable in the future? Will China become unstable under the pressures of social change, or will it eventually evolve into something resembling a democracy? Any of these outcomes will have critical implications for China's neighbors and the world as a whole.

In the United States, there has been a longstanding belief--or perhaps more properly, a hope--that as China grows richer, its political system will evolve into a democracy. There are a number of reasons for expecting this. Historically, there has been a strong correlation between the level of economic development (measured by per capita gross domestic product) and democracy. The critical level is around 8,000-10,000 dollars in purchasing power parity (PPP) terms, at which point a society ceases to be predominantly agricultural and has a large, urban industrial workforce. Both South Korea and Taiwan made transitions to democracy when they reached approximately this level of development during the 1980s, a course that Japan of course traveled several decades earlier. One suspects that if Hong Kong were an independent country, it would be a democracy today. While there are rich societies like those in the Persian Gulf that are not democracies, they have got to that level on the basis of resource rents rather than through the development of the skills of their own people, and thus have bypassed the social transformations that encourage democracy.

But why should economic development lead to democracy? There are a number of theories regarding this. One is that people will demand greater political participation as they become better educated, and as a complex division of labor emerges through industrialization. New social classes emerge that want a voice in political decision-making and protection of their rights. This process was clearly visible in South Korea in the late 1980s, when the struggle against the military dictatorship was led by workers, students and members of a newly emergent civil society. The development of a middle class--that is, people who own real property, and hence who have a stake in their property rights--is held to be a particularly important condition for stable democracy.

Under this theory, China is not yet quite at a point in its development where it could sustain a democracy. The World Bank currently estimates its per capita GDP to be around 7,000 dollars in PPP terms, but these estimates are very unreliable, and the bank is reportedly going to lower this number by as much as 40 percent. So China is still some years away from the development threshold that Taiwan and South Korea experienced two decades ago.

And yet, there is no mechanical linkage between wealth and democracy. In particular, the role of the middle classes in promoting democratic political participation is not inevitable, and in the Chinese case works to frustrate the emergence of greater democracy. In 1989, the newly emergent middle classes (led by students in Beijing and other cities) led a protest movement that culminated in the Tienanmen Square demonstrations that were forcibly suppressed by the Chinese government. In the years since then, however, the Chinese middle class has been largely co-opted by the regime, which has allowed it to expand and get rich with extraordinary speed. Upwardly mobile Chinese, buying their first car or condominium, are above all interested in stability.

The communist regime has been good at protecting their gains; looking at the chaos that overtook Russia as it democratized in the 1990s, it focused on economic growth above all as the anchor of its legitimacy.

Ironically, what would threaten the new middle class' property today is precisely the emergence of a broader democracy. The reason for this is that China remains a hugely unequal society in which hundreds of millions of people have been left behind by the growth in the cities and coastal regions. This is evident from the statistics on inequality: China's Gini coefficient, a measure of inequality of income distribution, rose from 0.407 in 1994 to 0.473 in 2004, according to the Asian Development Bank, a substantially higher number than most developed countries, including the United States. China's richest 10 percent have almost 12 times the incomes as the poorest 10 percent. The social consequences of this are evident in the continuing acts of protest and violence by the poor--mostly peasants living in the country's interior--that occur on a weekly basis around the country.

Opposition to democracy by the middle class is actually a more widespread phenomenon than many people think. In 1992, the middle classes in Thailand supported a pro-democracy movement that pushed the Thai military back to their barracks. But in September 2006, this same sector of Thai society quietly supported the takeover of the country by the military. They did so because they were strongly opposed to Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his populist Thai Rak Thai party. While the middle class attacked Thaksin's corruption, they were equally upset with his redistributive policies that were aiding the rural poor at the expense of future economic growth.

Were China to democratize today, the political consequences would likely threaten middle-class prosperity, if not political stability in general.

There are huge unmet demands on the part of the poor for greater social services. China's particular route to modernization, using Township and Village Enterprises (TVEs), has created a whole class of wealthy local autocrats who are rightly perceived as corrupt and exploitative. Greater democracy in China would risk a populist explosion on a much greater scale than Thaksin's revolution in Thailand.

What this means, in my opinion, is that the prospects for a gradual, relatively peaceful transition to democracy, as occurred in Taiwan and South Korea, is unlikely to happen soon in China. Democracy will be potentially destabilizing until the large mass of rural poor in China come to share in the prosperity enjoyed by the elites and middle class.

There is a lot of evidence that the Chinese regime knows that it is sitting on top of a socially explosive situation. While it has been successful at putting down strikes and demonstrations by peasants and workers (ironic, for a communist regime), it knows that it has to do something much more substantial to defuse their anger. But it has been extremely slow to act, accumulating nearly 1.5 trillion dollars worth of foreign reserves even as enormous social needs go unmet.

But while the short-term prospects for democracy in China don't look good, in the longer run the need for greater democracy will remain. Today, there is only upward political accountability: If people have grievances, they can petition the emperor (aka the Chinese Communist Party) and hope that he will do something to meet their needs.

Over the past year, foreign consumers have rejected Chinese products because poor safety and health standards have led to people being poisoned or otherwise harmed. Chinese authorities have reacted to this vigorously by cracking down on their own regulators and companies. They don't want to lose foreign markets and are highly sensitive to foreign criticism.

However, these same Chinese companies have been poisoning domestic Chinese consumers and destroying the environment in China for many years without any consequences. The only way these sorts of problems can ultimately be solved is through greater downward political accountability. That is, Chinese officials have to answer not just to the higher Communist Party hierarchy, but to the people they supposedly serve. They will not feel accountable unless there is a free press that can uncover and report their wrongdoings and a civil society that pushes them to reform. This short route of downward accountabiity is what is otherwise known as democracy. Former Prime Minister Lee Kwan Yew of Singapore once argued that democracy was not compatible with the Confucian values common in Asia. But modern democracy exists not just as a matter of cultural values; it is also a functional mechanism for reconciling social conflicts and for making sure that rulers meet the needs of the ruled. The particular configuration of political interests in China today may not be conducive to a near-term transition to democracy. But in the end, democracy is a more reliable means of ensuring good governance than reliance on an authoritarian party, in China no less than in Western societies.

Fukuyama is professor of international political economy at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.

(Jan. 13, 2008)

MG 3
01-14-2008, 10:40 AM
Thats why they are successful compared to all others in their leauge.

gaijinsamurai
01-14-2008, 10:59 AM
I can respect this argument, and it is why I am less critical of Vladimir Putin than a lot of others, when it comes to Russia.

SOG
01-14-2008, 12:58 PM
IF china will ever become a democracy they have a long way to go. BUT i highly doubt they will ever become one. they simply cannot equally empower that many people considering jobs, education and pay. this will lead to rather large social classes being developed (similar to todays). they might beccome an india of sorts but that's about it. hardly an ideal or empowering democracy i think.

however i don't think china or even russia for that matter should be democracies. they should institute whatever works for them and their countries background.

I can't think of a name
01-14-2008, 01:00 PM
Fukuyama is up there with Kaplan with this theory.

Ordie
01-14-2008, 01:57 PM
When it comes to domestic issues, the Chinese government are too thin skinned and will throw money, people and resources at the problem. They execute the scapegoats without pointing the fingers at themselves for the lack of planning and policymaking.

In terms of socio-economic-environmental evolution, China is at the same stage as the US or Europe circa 1890-1910.

gregoralex
01-14-2008, 10:14 PM
J-10,Don't use others' reasearch to support your stupid thread title !Don't do it anymore

gaijinsamurai
01-14-2008, 10:41 PM
J-10,Don't use others' reasearch to support your stupid thread title !Don't do it anymore

Do we have a new moderator?!?!?!

KillerBD
01-14-2008, 11:51 PM
IF china will ever become a democracy they have a long way to go. BUT i highly doubt they will ever become one. they simply cannot equally empower that many people considering jobs, education and pay. this will lead to rather large social classes being developed (similar to todays). they might beccome an india of sorts but that's about it. hardly an ideal or empowering democracy i think.

however i don't think china or even russia for that matter should be democracies. they should institute whatever works for them and their countries background.

Pretty well put.. Almost exactly what I would say. Everyone seems to be so critical of other countries syle of governing. Sometimes they are right to be crticial of certain governments IMHO (North Korea, Syria, others). But other times they don't seem to know much about what they say. Democracy is good yes for many countries, but Democracy as we see it here in the U.S. doesn't work perfectly in all countries around the world (as we are lead to believe). The Russian Federation is a perfect example, especially in the early (earlier) years. Many people in the West liked the idea of the 'evil baby choking' USSR falling and democracy taking root there. Alot of Russians liked the idea at first too, but once democracy came.... It wasn't all happiness and rainbows as it was made to seem... Though the situation is improving.

But if China was to do as the USSR did and in a relative short peoriod of time replace its single party socialist government with popularly elected democratic officials and embrace capitalism... I doubt it would go well, sure we might smile here in the U.S. Hell they might smile over there for a little bit too... But I don't believe it would work well for them in the long run... Thats why they [seem/appear] to be doing this in a more gradual manner..

My 2 cents of rant, sorry.

gaijinsamurai
01-15-2008, 12:15 AM
Don't be sorry, Killer. It's one of the most intelligent posts I've seen in a long time, and echoes my thoughts. Well said, Sir!!!!

I can't think of a name
01-15-2008, 01:57 AM
Democracy in "China" wont work because the current boundaires of the state are a PRC creation.

Smaller states along more historically and ethnically correct lines would work out much better.

Tibet and East Turkestan would be their own states. (There is Historical Precedence for this)

Goungdong would love to be independent with its unprecedented economic power.

Inner Mongolia on its own

Manchuria part of Korea

etc....
I could go into more detail but those are the big ones


The current "China" is only defined by the PRC STATE, it is not a NATION.

The issue is that it is very much like the Balkans and former Soviet states, Instead of ethnic Serbs and Russians you have Ethnic Han Chinese flooding areas that are traditionally occupied by different ethnicities.

This practice is know as Internal Colonialism.

Mobydog
01-15-2008, 10:58 AM
In other words, breaking up china into many smaller manageable parts.. that has been the idea of the western league of nation since 1900s. Strangely before 1949, US has always regarded Tibet as part of China...that's why KMT HQ was in southeast Tibet where US suppklies was flying over the HUMP from Burma.

During the 19 century, one must remember, that the rule of the world was set by the Colonial West, and the Chinese has their own set of governing rules in the region. If Tibet were not part of China.. Why didn't the British took Tibet as their colony, since they invaded twice and sent the Lamas fleeing twice. Why is that ? They could easily do it.

and East Turkistan.. do you know that the slogan of this org is ? "Kill all Hui and wipe out Han".. even though the rule there only for 80 years, 1200 years ago, and commited genocide against mongols, Hui and hans who were there for thousands years.. and now claims it's their homeland ? Might as well, tell Turkey to give back Istanbul to the Greeks. A little fact here, in 1940s, the KMT was forced to fight the Ughurs who was killing han and hui, supported by Soviet communist. When CCP took over, the fight con't.

Please check out the history... not the version western media is portraying it out to be.

plato
01-15-2008, 12:19 PM
Do we have a new moderator?!?!?!
Yeah, I noticed it, too. Apparently it is ok to call a Southeastern Asian "monkey", (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2963605&postcount=119)now.

Ordie
01-15-2008, 01:11 PM
In other words, breaking up china into many smaller manageable parts.. that has been the idea of the western league of nation since 1900s.

Not really. The Chinese did it to themselves with the weak Qing governance and the emergence of warlords soon after the abdication of the Emperor.

Both the British Opium War and American Adm. Perry visit to Japan had the same goals to forcibly open both Chinese and Japanese trade and commerce. The Chinese resisted and lost. The Japanese embraced change and won.

Had the Qing court followed the Japanese Meji Period example in the modernization of China it could have been in a stronger position to avoid humiliation. Especially from Japan in 1895 with the Treaty of Shimonseki that gave away Taiwan.

In fact Sun Yat Sen, Chiang Kai Shek and other republicans viewed the Japanese modernzation efforts as a prime example of an independent Asian country. Many KMT military and political leaders were trained in Japan.

It was Sun Yat Sen's Northern Expedition in the 1920's that either convinced or forced the warlords to join the KMT. It took another 40 years of civil war to bring it together.

Mobydog and to the Chinese Nationalist who visits this site:

Question (not flamebaiting): In regards to China today, do you view China as a victor or victim?

SOG
01-15-2008, 03:29 PM
Pretty well put.. Almost exactly what I would say. Everyone seems to be so critical of other countries syle of governing. Sometimes they are right to be crticial of certain governments IMHO (North Korea, Syria, others). But other times they don't seem to know much about what they say. Democracy is good yes for many countries, but Democracy as we see it here in the U.S. doesn't work perfectly in all countries around the world (as we are lead to believe). The Russian Federation is a perfect example, especially in the early (earlier) years. Many people in the West liked the idea of the 'evil baby choking' USSR falling and democracy taking root there. Alot of Russians liked the idea at first too, but once democracy came.... It wasn't all happiness and rainbows as it was made to seem... Though the situation is improving.

But if China was to do as the USSR did and in a relative short peoriod of time replace its single party socialist government with popularly elected democratic officials and embrace capitalism... I doubt it would go well, sure we might smile here in the U.S. Hell they might smile over there for a little bit too... But I don't believe it would work well for them in the long run... Thats why they [seem/appear] to be doing this in a more gradual manner..

My 2 cents of rant, sorry.

thanks man, i totally agree. not sure what is with our attitude or government in bringing democracy to everybody. freedom yes, democracy no. you can have freedoms under any kind of rule. china might become a pseudo democracy but never a real one. i think the ruling caste will empower a small middle class that will in turn empower them. on the flip side you will still have untold millions living poor without any benefits whatsoever but they have been doing that forever so it's no big deal no matter what our empowered democracies say. basically i think china will build a social face and base to modernize itself with the world and then continue on as normal.

that's interesting, icanthinkofaname and mobydog. i wonder about the possibility of splitting china into "states" like the USA. it would almost make sense to seperate the new found wealth and developed china from the old. in a wierd way i almost see it as a north and south korea but not at war, just politically and socially split to maintain some form order and to keep strong civil unrest from developing.

china is going to have interesting issues with drug trade and also as they grow more powerful concerning their own politics and taking different sides, it is a real possibility they may face a civil war or splitting of sorts if the new china and old china cannot perfectly meld. as power and influence grow, so will ideological differences.

lenovo
01-15-2008, 09:59 PM
The problem is that under CCP, Chinese are becoming more and more united. As a Cantonese myself, though we are living in the richest province in China mainland and we have a democracy model Hongkonkg, we still regard ourselves as Chinese and are proud to be Chinese. China's 5000 years and hundreds of civil wars have proved that a seperated China will only do bad to ourselves.

We might not like CCP a lot, but we don't hate it much neither since the current strange type of economic and political system is working surprising well. I just read a poll result in a popular oversea Chinese forum and most people chose to vote CCP if one day national level election is implemented in China.


Democracy in "China" wont work because the current boundaires of the state are a PRC creation.

Smaller states along more historically and ethnically correct lines would work out much better.

Tibet and East Turkestan would be their own states. (There is Historical Precedence for this)

Goungdong would love to be independent with its unprecedented economic power.

Inner Mongolia on its own

Manchuria part of Korea

etc....
I could go into more detail but those are the big ones


The current "China" is only defined by the PRC STATE, it is not a NATION.

The issue is that it is very much like the Balkans and former Soviet states, Instead of ethnic Serbs and Russians you have Ethnic Han Chinese flooding areas that are traditionally occupied by different ethnicities.

This practice is know as Internal Colonialism.

gregoralex
01-15-2008, 10:13 PM
what a familiar voice up there.Here strong forum troop is in action

Mobydog
01-15-2008, 10:30 PM
Not really. The Chinese did it to themselves with the weak Qing governance and the emergence of warlords soon after the abdication of the Emperor.With the help of the two opium wars and 1900 league of nation. In fact, when the league of nation won the war, their intention was to spilt China and govern them as colony. But they realise that Chinese are typically one nation, not like Africa, thus unruleable.


Both the British Opium War and American Adm. Perry visit to Japan had the same goals to forcibly open both Chinese and Japanese trade and commerce. The Chinese resisted and lost. The Japanese embraced change and won. and sell opium....


Had the Qing court followed the Japanese Meji Period example in the modernization of China it could have been in a stronger position to avoid humiliation. Especially from Japan in 1895 with the Treaty of Shimonseki that gave away Taiwan.

In fact Sun Yat Sen, Chiang Kai Shek and other republicans viewed the Japanese modernzation efforts as a prime example of an independent Asian country. Many KMT military and political leaders were trained in Japan.

It was Sun Yat Sen's Northern Expedition in the 1920's that either convinced or forced the warlords to join the KMT. It took another 40 years of civil war to bring it together. Largely true, but what brought the warlords together with the invading Japanese and communist.


Mobydog and to the Chinese Nationalist who visits this site:Stop calling them Nationalist.. there is nothing wrong with being proud of their country and defending with criticism.. especially, some postings are over hyped and misleading. Plenty of other members does the same thing when you criticise their country.


Question (not flamebaiting): In regards to China today, do you view China as a victor or victim?What kind of question is that.. US is always the Victor and many times the aggressor, and one just can't ignore that the US Mass Media is obviously running an anti-china blitz.. when was the last time you hear anything good from them.. very seldom.

Ordie
01-15-2008, 10:35 PM
We might not like CCP a lot, but we don't hate it much neither since the current strange type of economic and political system is working surprising well. I just read a poll result in a popular oversea Chinese forum and most people chose to vote CCP if one day national level election is implemented in China.

But what will happen if the CCP cannot meet all of the expectations of the Chinese. What will happen if the CCP has a hands off approach to the currency, stock market and private property? Who will people blame if thier life savings is lost because a dip in stock prices? themselves? no the CCP.

As I said before the CCP will always be "soft faced" when it comes to issues of nationalism, the economy and society. Their answer will always be throw more money and people at the problem (execute a few corrupt party bosses) but never trust the locals.

As its stands now the majority of Chinese are no longer dependent of the iron rice bowl nor the government. Most work in the private sector and most have access to outside sources of information.

Sooner or later Beijing will need to recognize local control is the best method of dealing with local issues outside the CCP centralized infrastructure.

Sooner or later the government may need to put on a thick face with its own population.

Ordie
01-15-2008, 10:41 PM
What kind of question is that.. US is always the Victor and many times the aggressor, and one just can't ignore that the US Mass Media is obviously running an anti-china blitz.. when was the last time you hear anything good from them.. very seldom.

I did not ask about the US nor media.

My question is simple:

Do modern day Chinese view themselves (TODAY) as the victor or the victim?

I'm just curious:)

Mobydog
01-15-2008, 10:48 PM
I did not ask about the US nor media.

My question is simple:

Do modern day Chinese view themselves (TODAY) as the victor or the victim?

I'm just curious:)I don't know.. ask the Chinese themselves. But from many Chinese that I know.. they don't care less, as long money can be made. They do wish their country to be strong, but who doesn't.

Ordie
01-15-2008, 10:59 PM
I don't know.. ask the Chinese themselves. But from many Chinese that I know.. they don't care less, as long money can be made. They do wish their country to be strong, but who doesn't.

I did.

Some are fixated with two centuries of humlilitation and feel victims. They go crazy when I mention the bombing in Belgrade was a mistake. (I just say that to get a reaction)

The majority, like yourself, avoid talking politics at all cost.

Ironically none of them feels that China is victorious despite its accomplishments.

Solvent
01-16-2008, 03:47 AM
I did.

Some are fixated with two centuries of humlilitation and feel victims. They go crazy when I mention the bombing in Belgrade was a mistake. (I just say that to get a reaction)

The majority, like yourself, avoid talking politics at all cost.

Ironically none of them feels that China is victorious despite its accomplishments.

There is special reason for Chinese to avoid talking politics. Who wants to talk about empty and impractical topics?

And nothing wrong with feeling of victims.

There are two old Chinese idioms I like to share with you.

"Feel shame and then become fearless"

"Sad soldiers will win"

Mobydog
01-16-2008, 07:49 AM
I did.

Some are fixated with two centuries of humlilitation and feel victims. They go crazy when I mention the bombing in Belgrade was a mistake. (I just say that to get a reaction) Oh, come on. If I say that the invasion of Iraq was for the control of oil, or that the Iraq war was illegal since it's by deceit, or 9/11 was an inside job... the same thing would happen here.. and it did. BTW, I too, think that the Belgrade was intentional.


The majority, like yourself, avoid talking politics at all cost.

Ironically none of them feels that China is victorious despite its accomplishments.Come on (again). We have been talking about politics all along. And Chinese generally still thinks that they are a third world country...and they still are. Only the western media are saying they are a superpower.. and World threat. To the West, "Military Balance " means US and allies having military dominance over china, while china, modernising their military to match, is destablising their own region. Think about it..

Ordie
01-17-2008, 02:48 AM
And nothing wrong with feeling of victims.

There are two old Chinese idioms I like to share with you.

"Feel shame and then become fearless"

"Sad soldiers will win"

Here's another Chinese saying:

"A superior man is broadminded, where as a petty person is always resentful... Intolerence of minor insults will ruin great projects"
-Analects

Overall the way I view it, the Chinese nationalist are insecure about its "face" is being respected in the world. Hence a collective feeling of humiliation, victimhood that contributes the negative attitudes towards the outside world. More specifically towards the USA and Japan.

Partly the reason why is because the Chinese nationalist are too caught up in its own history and self pity, more specifically the last 200 years. The humiliation is so strong that the urge for revenge is great and gratifying. Hence the popular sometimes violent reaction in regards to the Belgrade Bombing, EP-3 incident and whenever a Japanese PM or MP visits the Yasukuni Shrine.

Eventhough US Bashing and China bashing might be enjoyible for some, the bottom line is that it is very dangerous path because it may end up as a zero sum game (Think Israel vs. PLO).

Americans are the opposite. They tend to look at themselves as victors and always looking towards the future. Sometimes to a fault since we forget our history and repeat the same mistakes of the past.

But we do not dwell on the British Sacking of Washington DC during the War of 1812 nor do we dwell on the Japanese treatment of American POW during the Bataan Death March.

In fact, I think we're the only country that saved and helped rebuild our former enemies and build closer ties for the sake of the common good.

But for what its worth, both China and the USA are joined at the hip and we need to earn each other's respect somehow.

KoTeMoRe
01-17-2008, 04:39 AM
Ahahah I like when Ordie embraces Anachronism, especially the change part with Japan. Next time when you'll see a permanent foreign army "occu"...heh "invited" by the Chinese government you call me.

This whole debate about victors and evicted is moot and could only be brought up by a western counscience. So typical of us (westerners).

KoTeMoRe
01-17-2008, 04:45 AM
The problem is that under CCP, Chinese are becoming more and more united. As a Cantonese myself, though we are living in the richest province in China mainland and we have a democracy model Hongkonkg, we still regard ourselves as Chinese and are proud to be Chinese. China's 5000 years and hundreds of civil wars have proved that a seperated China will only do bad to ourselves.

We might not like CCP a lot, but we don't hate it much neither since the current strange type of economic and political system is working surprising well. I just read a poll result in a popular oversea Chinese forum and most people chose to vote CCP if one day national level election is implemented in China.

Yes and given the current economical surge, I bet my forearm none of the ethnies cited by ICTON would want to get out of the bandwagon, simply because chances are the bonanza could affect them all.

Oh As for internal colonialism...welcome to 19th century statebuilding. With huge territories that is a must, in order to harden the overall structure.

Solvent
01-19-2008, 02:12 AM
Here's another Chinese saying:

"A superior man is broadminded, where as a petty person is always resentful... Intolerence of minor insults will ruin great projects"
-Analects

....

Well said, Ordie. Ancient Chinese said too much. You always can find some sentences to support your opinions. I think the saying you quoted makes sense as well, although its meaning is a little far from what I said.

As for the different attitude, American has almost opposite history as Chinese. Over one hundred years' miserable history left deep wounds, especially when grandparents and even some parents still can tell stories about that part of history.

Ordie
01-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Well said, Ordie. Ancient Chinese said too much. You always can find some sentences to support your opinions. I think the saying you quoted makes sense as well, although its meaning is a little far from what I said.

I found the quote in a fortune cookie.