Tragic racial shooting in South Africa

[Rudolph]

I find this very depressing. Many of you are aware of the crime in South Africa, and now a young white man has snappped and fired on innocent black residents, killing three and wounding many others. He's only 18-years-old, which means he wasn't even in primary school when apartheid ended.

Obviously this was a racial shooting, but it's also a very complicated matter. Although I'd like to start off by saying that since he is 18 I could only recommend the death sentence, if there still was one. A retired black policemen today spoke out against the claims of racism though, saying he knows the family well and that he wept along with the family over the incident. He said the boy always treated him with respect and called him "oupa", or granddad.

The man was heavily traumatized growing up, as he was attacked by a black man wielding a sickle at age 14, and when he was 15, seven black men attacked his brother on their farm. There were also two farm attacks in the area during the last week, one involving the attackers pumping gas into the room of a friend's house where his wife was sleeping with their three-week-old baby.

He used a .303 for the attack and calmly asked someone for more bullets later-on, remarking that he was busy attacking the township.

So things have now come full circle in this country. The innocent white youth killed because of the violence by the Africans, and the Africans attacked because of the conditions during apartheid. I can only now wonder whether there will be more incidents like these...

Some articles on the matter:

Link (http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=815457)
Link (http://www.24.com/news/?p=tsa&i=815598)
Link (http://www.thetimes.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=683199)

[Tokamak]

Sad story indeed. My wife has the idea to move to South Africa but so far I think that won't happen.

[dimasorokine]

Isn't South Africa the most dangerous place on earth to be white? Correct me if I'm wrong, that is what I've heard in a documentary I watched on Racism in highschool.

-Dima

[Masai]

being a white man in SA is possiby the worst situation you can be in.

[gaijinsamurai]

Sad news. I sincerely wish the best for the people in South Africa.

[Invisigoth]

Isn't South Africa the most dangerous place on earth to be white? Correct me if I'm wrong, that is what I've heard in a documentary I watched on Racism in highschool.

-Dima

Zimbabwe is probably not too safe either these days. Sad that someone would snap like that and even sadder that it cost the lives of innocent people.

[CMNot]

Zimbabwe is far worse.

It has moved into the capitalist age. Most folk don't have the proverbial pot to piss in. All wheels can be greased.

The problem is for that you need money.

Plenty of white folk about, and plenty of places where the black populace (and many ethnic white Africans) have been priced out by foreigners, mainly English, German, Dutch etc.

The cities, by and large, are iffy to say the least. Night time is a no-no. The northern border areas aren't good.

It will be interesting to see how the lame sods in Gov't will handle the WC. The big matches are in the big cities, which have big crime to complement them (not just murder - street robbery, rape, car jacking etc. etc.).

[Hollis]

Sad news. I sincerely wish the best for the people in South Africa.


I agree, Rest In Peace for the victims.

[Tokamak]

being a white man in SA is possiby the worst situation you can be in.

While being in South Africa I was told that if you are black and educated you will earn more than if you were white. That sound unfair but in a way understandable since I was told they had a shortage of well educated people and were trying to encourage black people to get a good education.

[Rudolph]

While being in South Africa I was told that if you are black and educated you will earn more than if you were white. That sound unfair but in a way understandable since I was told they had a shortage of well educated people and were trying to encourage black people to get a good education.

Lowest in the social order right now is a white Afrikaner male, like me. The government has institutionalised racism, and it is accepted by the international community, until 2015 it will be legal I believe. Although some bitter black politicians said it will last forever.

There are basically two aspects. Firstly you have BEE, Black Economic Empowerment, and then AA - Affirmative Action. The USA and UK also have AA, but now imagine you were not trying to help a minority but a majority. The only way to do that is to legally force companies to only hire a certain amount of white people. Thus, poverty amongst whites just about doubled. Same goes for study bursuries and university entry, whites may not fill classes anymore.

And you may think that's unfair, but at least everyone is now getting more equal -- wrong! The Institute for Race Relations made it very clear in a recent report that poverty and unemployment is exactly double what it was in 1994. BEE is suppose to award contracts to black owned companies, another aspect, if you are a white company owner you cannot get government contracts, or many others for that matter.... But because of all the corruption the rich blacks simply award each other the contracts, and therefore wealth distribution is now even much less equal than during apartheid.

We simply call it reverse discrimination.

[tyovan]

How difficult is it for white Saffies to get out? How many would be able to get a British passport or maybe even a Dutch one?

Whats the immigration/emigration rate like for whites in ZA?

[Tokamak]

Lowest in the social order right now is a white Afrikaner male, like me. The government has institutionalised racism, and it is accepted by the international community, until 2015 it will be legal I believe. Although some bitter black politicians said it will last forever.

There are basically two aspects. Firstly you have BEE, Black Economic Empowerment, and then AA - Affirmative Action. The USA and UK also have AA, but now imagine you were not trying to help a minority but a majority. The only way to do that is to legally force companies to only hire a certain amount of white people. Thus, poverty amongst whites just about doubled. Same goes for study bursuries and university entry, whites may not fill classes anymore.

And you may think that's unfair, but at least everyone is now getting more equal -- wrong! The Institute for Race Relations made it very clear in a recent report that poverty and unemployment is exactly double what it was in 1994. BEE is suppose to award contracts to black owned companies, another aspect, if you are a white company owner you cannot get government contracts, or many others for that matter.... But because of all the corruption the rich blacks simply award each other the contracts, and therefore wealth distribution is now even much less equal than during apartheid.

We simply call it reverse discrimination.

About companies having a limit on the amount of white people that they hire also raised some eyebrows in our conversation. Any particular reason why 2015?.

[Rudolph]

Maybe AA was started in 1995, and granted 20 years. I believe the USA also has a program that ends in 2015 by which time we are suppose to reach certain goals or else they will step in to "help".

When I went for an interview last year they also told me that they first had to find out from HQ whether they may hire another white person for the department. Came as no shock to hear that, and at least I got the job.

[Tokamak]

To help? what do you mean?.

If there is not enough qualified black people and white people are not hired due to limits imposed by the government, wouldn't this limit the progress of the country?.

[AlboSwe]

screwed up system is what they have

[dimasorokine]

Sounds almost like a system of "Payback"
-Dima

[Rudolph]

Sounds almost like a system of "Payback"
-Dima

Sure, and they will rather have the country fail than admit that all races are needed to make it a success. Guess they are doomed to repeat all the mistakes of the past...

[Serbelius]

Well I can talk from experience from my military days, as I was over looked for promotion due to the fact that I was white and not just me, my buddy as well and was he told sorry your white so no promotion for you.
Also as for courses only a certain amount of whites were accepted on courses and of our black members whom made up the majority, and while I was on a specialist weapons course met up with a member who were back for his 4th time on a different course (anti tank) as he could not even pass the safety exam, and were I since becoming a NCO nominated a staggering 15 times for the same course over a period of 6 years. That same period of time when on my course were also a mortars course and after 2 weeks and safety exams more than 50% of course were already dropped out from course and one member laughed and said “no worries will anyway be back for the next one”.
As for the idiot that wrote “Tragic racial shooting in South Africa” why all of a sudden is it tragic and not just “Fatal Shootings”…? Or is it only whites whom are racists when somebody is killed. When a black member kills people I suppose it was just a accident as his foot slip or something or he got scared and oops shot the home owner whom dare disturb him while robbing and stealing from the guy. When farm murders and robberies take place it is not written “Tragic racist farm murder or racist shooting of home owner” unless again it was a white farmer/member shooting somebody yes then it is again is racist but not when black members kill then it is just a small thing.

[dimasorokine]

Sure, and they will rather have the country fail than admit that all races are needed to make it a success. Guess they are doomed to repeat all the mistakes of the past...

I don't know much about South Africa's current situation other than the basic Apartheid, high crime rates and racist violence, but I get the impression this is what’s happening:

The black elite promote anti-White / pro-Black policies and social views, exploit the black population's painful memories from the past and steer them towards a racial conflict with the white population. They keep this distraction alive to stuff their own pockets (often by taking property and business from whites) and exploit the country as whole, while pointing the finger at the "white man" who according to them is to blame for everything that’s wrong with the country.

Is that right?
-Dima

[Rudolph]

I don't know much about South Africa's current situation other than the basic Apartheid, high crime rates and racist violence, but I get the impression this is what’s happening:

The black elite promote anti-White / pro-Black policies and social views, exploit the black population's painful memories from the past and steer them towards a racial conflict with the white population. They keep this distraction alive to stuff their own pockets (often by taking property and business from whites) and exploit the country as whole, while pointing the finger at the "white man" who according to them is to blame for everything that’s wrong with the country.

Is that right?
-Dima

Correct, glad you said it.

"The South African Institute of Race Relations has made the case (http://www.sairr.org.za/wsc/) that between 1996 and 2001 the number of South Africans living at less than a dollar/day rose from 1.9 million to 3.6 million. Ken Owen, Joel Net****enzhe, Frank Chikane, and a host of others have suggested that this is nonsense. But the dollar/day data does not exist in vacuum. It is a reflection of the fact that between the same years in which people living at this level of poverty doubled the number of unemployed South Africans rose from 2.0 million to 4.4 million. On the expanded definition of unemployment the figures are far greater."

These figures are almost 7 years old now, it is even greater now... Officially unemployment is around 25%, unofficially close to 50%.

"At the present day (http://www.mises.org/article.aspx?Id=1501&id=67), an estimated 42% or 8-million employable non-white South Africans are unemployed. The unemployment among this segment of the population is higher today than at any time during the apartheid era. During the mid-1970's, the United Nations revealed that despite apartheid and despite South Africa's disparity in wage rates, black people in South Africa earned a higher per capita annual income than black people living elsewhere in sub-Sahara Africa. During the 1980's and early 1990's, the anti-apartheid movement promoted the concept of "revolution before education," encouraging thousands of non-white students to abandon their formal schooling."

[dimasorokine]

Rudolph,

Thats sad, but not surprising...it really saddens me because South Africa is one of the places I would like to live / own a house one day. The whole continent in general fascinates me - there is till a romance about Africa unlike any other continet on Earth (despite the wars and trouble).

How is your life in Cape Town btw?

-Dima

[Rudolph]

Rudolph,

Thats sad, but not surprising...it really saddens me because South Africa is one of the places I would like to live / own a house one day. The whole continent in general fascinates me - there is till a romance about Africa unlike any other continet on Earth (despite the wars and trouble).

How is your life in Cape Town btw?

-Dima

Here's a list of things I can recall happening to friends and family in and around Cape Town:

- Friend living close by mugged 2 or 3 times near the train station
- Best friend awoke going to the bathroom, found black man with screwdriver in the hallway
- Other good friend hijacked just outside Cape Town city centre along with his girlfriend
- Classmate in school had a gun put to his head, but it jammed
- My dad's coloured friend along with a couple of people held at gunpoint in the street during
daylight. The criminals' guns jammed (regular occurrence) and fought back hand-hand
- My car broke into a week after being bought
- My brother's car windows smashed and radio stolen a few weeks earlier
- Two of my dad's cars stolen
- My niece's car stolen from my dad's house during a family dinner
- Gang shootout 5 minutes after I left a client during work
- Cash-in-transit van sprayed with bullets middle of the day close to another client about 2
months ago
- Attempted hijacking of fellow at the local shooting range, shot back killing & founding some
attackers, but being wounded himself
- Neighbour behind us woke and held at knifepoint one morning
- Attempted break-in at our house around 10am the morning
- Equipment stolen from backyard while we were sleeping
- Security company that picks up money robbed at the office where I worked on my off day
- My manager at my previous work disarmed, with his dad, 2 or 3 robbers and held them at gunpoint till the police arrived late one night
- When I was little my brother also once went outside with a hunting rifle after the police were searching the area for criminals who seemed to have jumped our fence in the escape
- My uncle has a farm in the Eastern Cape. He once had to tie up a drunk black cop who pulled his gun on them at the farm. He delivered him to the police station, and somehow my uncle was not arrested! They also hired Executive Outcomes in the area to help with farm attacks many years back. (He was called up for SADF duty '70-'71, '75-'76 and again in 1990)

So, in all fairness, I've had it easy. No raping, torturing, etc. has occurred. But I still would prefer not to accept this as normal or "easy" living.

Other than that Cape Town really is a beautiful city. Lots of nature and old Dutch architecture to enjoy, including the old castle.

[dimasorokine]

Sounds pretty bad, kinda like Russia in the 90's before my family left...I assume people invest in a lot of security for their home?

-Dima

[Razvodnik]

Have you ever thinked about to leave SA and move to Europe. A good friend of me has worked in Cape Town for a couple of years before Mandela took power. After Apartheid ended crime has started to become a problem. He decided to move back to Germany because he wanted to be safe!

Will the Goverment be able to control the situation until 2010? I would like to travel to the World Cup but i´m worried about my personal security.

[CMNot]

Sounds pretty bad, kinda like Russia in the 90's before my family left...I assume people invest in a lot of security for their home?

-Dima

The norm (for those who can afford it) is gated communities, or hiring armed security response/patrols for the neighbourhood. Of course, then you are at the mercy of the competence of the security team. My fathers estates security is run by a former SADF white guy who is mega switched on.

I will point out that gated communities are nothing new in South Africa. The first time I ever lived out there in the early 80s (safest place in the world for a white man then, rightly or wrongly) was in a gated community in Joey.

[Tokamak]

Here's a list of things I can recall happening to friends and family in and around Cape Town:

- Friend living close by mugged 2 or 3 times near the train station
- Best friend awoke going to the bathroom, found black man with screwdriver in the hallway
- Other good friend hijacked just outside Cape Town city centre along with his girlfriend
- Classmate in school had a gun put to his head, but it jammed
- My dad's coloured friend along with a couple of people held at gunpoint in the street during
daylight. The criminals' guns jammed (regular occurrence) and fought back hand-hand
- My car broke into a week after being bought
- My brother's car windows smashed and radio stolen a few weeks earlier
- Two of my dad's cars stolen
- My niece's car stolen from my dad's house during a family dinner
- Gang shootout 5 minutes after I left a client during work
- Cash-in-transit van sprayed with bullets middle of the day close to another client about 2
months ago
- Attempted hijacking of fellow at the local shooting range, shot back killing & founding some
attackers, but being wounded himself
- Neighbour behind us woke and held at knifepoint one morning
- Attempted break-in at our house around 10am the morning
- Equipment stolen from backyard while we were sleeping
- Security company that picks up money robbed at the office where I worked on my off day
- My manager at my previous work disarmed, with his dad, 2 or 3 robbers and held them at gunpoint till the police arrived late one night
- When I was little my brother also once went outside with a hunting rifle after the police were searching the area for criminals who seemed to have jumped our fence in the escape
- My uncle has a farm in the Eastern Cape. He once had to tie up a drunk black cop who pulled his gun on them at the farm. He delivered him to the police station, and somehow my uncle was not arrested! They also hired Executive Outcomes in the area to help with farm attacks many years back. (He was called up for SADF duty '70-'71, '75-'76 and again in 1990)

So, in all fairness, I've had it easy. No raping, torturing, etc. has occurred. But I still would prefer not to accept this as normal or "easy" living.

Other than that Cape Town really is a beautiful city. Lots of nature and old Dutch architecture to enjoy, including the old castle.


Before I was told of the difficult situation in South Africa, well I knew it was bad but not that bad, I had a walk around Pretoria. Among the first things that made me wonder was all the signs on the houses saying something like: "armed personal" or "you will be fired" things like that. Walking on the street was a little bit strange because people were staring at me and for me that was the first time. In any case I had the chance to enter the Town Hall and see a political rally. People was singing, I didn't know what it was but I can tell you it was beautiful!!!!. I loved that moment. Anyway, when I came back people was worried because I went alone. After Pretoria we visited Cape Town and once again we were told not to walk alone and not to leave the "tourist" sections to avoid any problems, obviously we were surprised. It is a pity that having such a beautiful country, the situation is like that.

[limbic]

I find this very depressing. Many of you are aware of the crime in South Africa, and now a young white man has snappped and fired on innocent black residents, killing three and wounding many others.

The press will be all over this, highlighting the "racial' angle whilst continuing to ignore the wholesale slaughter of (mostly white) farmers and their workers.

The gratuitous torture and frequent lack of theft attest to a racial or political motive.

Check out these posts for a more detailed analysis:

Media bias in SA farm violence reporting (http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/media-bias-in-sa-farm-violence-reporting/)

Anti-white media bias continues in BBC coverage of South Africa (http://www.limbicnutrition.com/blog/anti-white-media-bias-continues-in-bbc-coverage-of-south-africa/)

[GETSOME]

How difficult is it for white Saffies to get out? How many would be able to get a British passport or maybe even a Dutch one?

Whats the immigration/emigration rate like for whites in ZA?
I left in 1998 to New Zealand,got in because i had a trade,so it was easy.
Australia and New Zealand are always looking for people with trades.
Canada was also ,but dont know now.
British passport as far as i know ,if your parents or grandparents were British.
If your parents are european passport holders well then you can get a euro passport and stay where you want ,i think.

[Itamajus]

Poor kid...

Are there any towns is SA who are mostly populated by white ppolation? or was it only a rummor that i heard?

[Rudolph]

Poor kid...

Are there any towns is SA who are mostly populated by white ppolation? or was it only a rummor that i heard?

The largest concentration of whites are around the old Boer capital Pretoria. But the only "whites only" area I can think of is a tiny region called Orania, where only whites are allowed to live. This was part of the agreement before 1994 that any ethnic group may buy land from the government and rule themselves to an extent. So, there is probably no crime there, and they do a lot of community work in the surrounding coloured areas, and they do their own manual labour. But we don't see this as a realistic solution for the whole white population. What we would like is that we do not need to think about things like this.

[MG 3]

Sad story. Stay safe out there Rudolph.

[Rudolph]

Sad story. Stay safe out there Rudolph.

Thanks man, am trying. And thanks to MP.Net for allowing these discussions.

[GETSOME]

Thanks man, am trying. And thanks to MP.Net for allowing these discussions.
Where in Cape Town do you stay if i may ask?

[Rudolph]

Tygerberg/Parow suburb about 10 mins from Cape Town.

[GETSOME]

Tygerberg/Parow suburb about 10 mins from Cape Town.
Woah,i was a Goodwood boy.:)

[Rudolph]

Cool, a lot of my friends live in Panorama/Welgelegen.

[sierratango]

Looking at this thread… I just need to share that crime in South Africa carries an extreme violent tag, last night I attended two murders the first was an 83 year old woman shot in her home, she resisted the robbery, the second was a gay couple had been involved in a home invasion as the suspects left they shot the one man in the head. The criminals involved in these crimes killed for the sake of killing.

This is not the first time that I have attended this type of crime but the frequency is growing.

[zonk]

thats a pretty sad story right there

[Kletterbuxe]

I wanted to watch the world cup in sa, but that makes me think about it twice. the sa administration seems to show a completly wrong picture of the situation. hard to imagine if you are living in a peacefull area in central europe.

[Rudolph]

Another sad incident reported today:

Mom forced to watch rape (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2255291,00.html)
20/01/2008 16:47 - (SA)


Johannesburg - A 19-year-old woman was raped by a robber while her mother was forced to look on, Mpumalanaga police said on Sunday.

Spokesperson Abie Khoabane said the woman and her mother were woken on Friday in their house in Nelspruit by the unknown robber who demanded money and cellphones.

"The man was armed with a screwdriver and knife. He first searched the house, then he raped the woman."

"He fled the scene and is still at large," he said.

Police are investigating cases of rape and house robbery.

[Itamajus]

Thats a horror movie scenario in reality. IMO worse place to live then israel and palestine...

[Rudolph]

Rape article linked to the previous. Note that they first make you watch before they kill:

Husband forced to watch rape (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2072233,00.html)
20/02/2007 17:05 - (SA)


Hazyview - A man was forced to watch two intruders rape his wife on Tuesday. They then shot him in the face, killing him.

Captain Leonard Hlathi of Mpumalanga police said the attack took place in Calcutta near Hazyview.

He said the men broke into the couple's house just after midnight.

"They forced open the security gate and held the couple up. Both had firearms, and the man was forced to watch while they took turns raping his wife.
"When they were done, they shot him in the face. He died instantly. They then robbed the woman of two cellphones and a bank card. The men fled on foot," said Hlathi.

---

This woman was lucky today, she got the upper hand:

Woman knifes attacker to death
(http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2255422,00.html)20/01/2008 21:18 - (SA)


Pretoria - A woman stabbed to death a man who attacked her at her home in Eastlynne, Pretoria on Sunday, said police.

He climbed over the palisade fencing to find her putting out the rubbish at 16:00, said Captain Prince Mokhabela.

He grabbed the 31-year-old woman and forced her inside where he started cutting off her clothes.

In the ensuing struggle, she managed to get hold of his knife and stabbed him several times. He died in her flat.

Mokhabela said the woman, who had been alone at home at the time, was not hurt in the incident.
Police believed the man had intended to rape her.

[LEGEND]

Thats a horror movie scenario in reality. IMO worse place to live then israel and palestine...

You ever been to Israel? Please refrain from comments like that..

[LEGEND]

Rudolph, are you allowed to own guns in SA for self defense?

And also, why stay if the state clearly shows that you are not wanted?

[tyovan]

^ Thats what I was wondering too.
What are ZA self defense laws like?

[R/cst]

Hi Guys
While not disparaging what has already been said regarding our unacceptably high violent crime rate, I feel I should point out that SA is still a good place to live.

Crime is a reality buy it does not consume our every waking moment, at the moment I am sitting at my desk looking at the parts I have to order for a machine we have sold to a American company and my mind is not on crime rather I am thinking about my new Ford Fiesta I am buying today.
Yes you must be careful, but we don't let it take over our lives, there are thousands of tourist who visit SA every year and all the crime they see is what is shown in the papers.

Also while the main focus here seems to be the crime against whites, I can confidently say that the crime level in the black community is about 10 times higher, I spend my weekend working with the SAPS and the area of town where I work is mainly suburbs and a township, I spend 70% of my time in the township and on average see at least two murders a night with a large number so assaults, rapes and other violent crimes thrown in to the mix.

As for AA unfortunately its a reality and we must just deal with it.

[BigBaribal]

South Africa is the perfect example to show how insane the diversity concept is and what nightmare it could be to live under black rule (1).



(1) I've somewhere on my HD a very interesting video showing president Mandela at a burying ceremony singing a song called "kill the whites"!

[Rudolph]

South Africa is the perfect example to show how insane the diversity concept is and what nightmare it could be to live under black rule (1).



(1) I've somewhere on my HD a very interesting video showing president Mandela at a burying ceremony singing a song called "kill the whites"!

While I wouldn't have brought that up myself, I would like to clarify the above so that this thread doesn't get locked or something due to racism. During the apartheid-era the ANC's military wing MK had their own racist songs about what they will do to the Boers (white population) and so forth. The video on Youtube showing Mandela singing one of these songs was at a post '94 funeral of an old ANC/MK cadre, and while very inapproriate, they were simply recalling the old days...

[sierratango]

I have to say that despite the negativity of the crime and what I have shared with you South Africa is still a great place. I was just venting.

If you are coming for the World Cup Soccer or any other tourist activity probably the worst that will happen to you will be a mild case of sun burn and you may even have a good time.

In terms of self defence, weapons can be licensed, the process is painfully long and if you are involved in a shooting expect a long legal process, although again this may depend on the circumstances as I know some guys that have shot and killed criminals and the enquiry has been wrapped up in less than two weeks and their weapons weren’t taken from them for testing.

[playtym]

If you are coming for the World Cup Soccer or any other tourist activity probably the worst that will happen to you will be a mild case of sun burn and you may even have a good time.

I can second this.

The government will deploy masses of police and military to ensure the safety of visitors (as they do for all international events), and after everyone's gone home they'll go back to not giving a damn about the man in the street, and his plight at the hands of the criminals.

[exT70]

Hi Guys
While not disparaging what has already been said regarding our unacceptably high violent crime rate, I feel I should point out that SA is still a good place to live.
Crime and violence in SA is at totally unacceptable levels and especially tragic in light of the peacefull manner in which we transitioned from apartheid to democracy. This is not Europe and I will not have my wife walk home on her own late at night. I will lock my doors at night, I pay an alarm company to monitor my house when I’m not there, I lock my cardoors when I get to an intersection and I am aware that I live in a violent crimeridden country. I am however still more likely to die or be hurt in a car accident than become a victim of crime.

I do not live in Europe or some other so called 1st world country. I also have a hell of a lot here that I just simply would never be able to afford, experience, enjoy or have should I have lived in a totally safe 1st world environment.

Whatever you get in life, you pay for in some way. Nothing is free.

Here I pay for my quality of life, great lifestyle, beautiful environment, freedom (from 2mil bloody stupid and petty rules which smothers you in 1st countries), blue skies, comfortable home on a decent sized plot, a bit of almost every imaginable landscape in the world within my own countries’ borders (ranging from mountain to beach, desert to rainforest) and a myriad of other blessing, - with crime, violence, corruption, high unemployment and a number of other evils. It is the price I pay. And I have decided that it is worth it. That is my choice.
I have travelled to 28 different countries, especially the ones SA’cans emigrate to. I have decided that at this stage in my life I can’t imagine living anywhere else in the world. I have in general whilst travelling felt much safer in poor 3rd world countries than in the 1st world. I have lived and worked in 1st world Europe/UK and decided to come back and live and work in South Africa. SAfrica is far from perfect and has many many problems, but it is, to my mind, the one place on this planet where I would most want to live. It is a great place to live. And that is my humble personal opinion, based on actually going out and experiencing the rest of the world, instead of sitting at home complaining.
Somebody else might make a different choice.

[Itamajus]

Nice one exT70

Stay safe SA guys!


P.S. there is always something good in everything bad

[Rittmester]

My respects to you SA Gentlemen.

As I live in a very quiet and peaceful corner of the world, where the main political issue at time being 100% kindergarten coverage; the frustration and stress of me potentially living in SA conditions would mentally exhaust me. Guess you've developed a thicker skin by being gradually climatized to the crime rate.

Had the same tendency developed in my country, I would arm myself and made my house into a fort. Bullet proof car windows and..

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/oDRme0HeXq4&feature/related

But seriously, you're welcome to Europe any time. Norway has a flow of Dutch families moving here, they like all the space and nature. The climate is somewhat cool most of the year, but on the other hand you rarely need to gun down strangers in your kitchen.

[Rudolph]

My respects to you SA Gentlemen.

...the frustration and stress of me potentially living in SA conditions would mentally exhaust me. Guess you've developed a thicker skin by being gradually climatized to the crime rate.

My earliest descendant arrived in the 1680's. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger apparently, we have always, and will always survive! p-)


Had the same tendency developed in my country, I would arm myself and made my house into a fort. Bullet proof car windows and..

It's really amazing how we accept these things, and consider them normal. As R/cst said, we live our lives up to a point as if there isn't 50 murders/day and 150 rapes/day.... but every now and then it gets to one and then you realize short of a major change in government nothing will change.


But seriously, you're welcome to Europe any time. Norway has a flow of Dutch families moving here, they like all the space and nature. The climate is somewhat cool most of the year, but on the other hand you rarely need to gun down strangers in your kitchen.

Mental support noted! One day when all is peaceful you can come live here... keep safe everyone, everywhere!

[GETSOME]

[quote=Rudolph;3000533]My earliest descendant arrived in the 1680's.


Your great ,great great oupa was Jan van Riebeeck?:)

[Rudolph]

Just consulted the family tree book.... Johannes Pretorius arrived on 1 April 1666, although he was working on a ship, and only stayed here permanently after landing on 9 December 1669. That's 338 years of history right here....

[GETSOME]

Just consulted the family tree book.... Johannes Pretorius arrived on 1 April 1666, although he was working on a ship, and only stayed here permanently after landing on 9 December 1669. That's 338 years of history right here....
Didnt Pretoria get its name from him?

[Rudolph]

Didnt Pretoria get its name from him?

Yes, the name comes from Pretorius. But he's not from my line, and the capital is named after Andries Pretorius of The Greak Trek, 1830's. These days the ANC calls it some mythical chief's name Tshwane.

[Rudolph]

Robbers wanted cell, not car (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2256628,00.html)
22/01/2008 22:42 - (SA)


Aletta Otto, Beeld


Witbank - A man is in a critical condition in Cosmos Hospital after robbers shot him three times.

His family want his identity kept secret as they fear the robbers might return.

The man was wounded during one of three robberies in the Del Judor residential area on Monday.

The 53-year-old was shot about 19:45 in front of his house on Monday.

The man's son said: "My father was going to move one of the cars in the yard when three men approached him and demanded his cellphone.

"He said he didn't have a cellphone and offered them the car keys instead.

Is in intensive care

"The robbers started beating him and shot him three times.

"He was wounded in the head, neck and stomach and is in a serious condition in ICU at the moment," said the son.

The son said the whole family was in the house and stormed outside to find the robbers had fled.

They put the wounded man in a car and rushed him to hospital.

The son said: "The whole way there my father was saying, 'I've been shot, I'm going to pass out.' It was terrible."

According to the son, one of the bullets penetrated his father's lung, stomach, colon and kidney, and he lost about four litres of blood.
The man is being kept under sedation.

---

Rapist gets 15 years' (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2256550,00.html)
22/01/2008 20:16 - (SA)


Pietermaritzburg - A Greytown labourer, 19, who broke into a woman's farm home to assault, rape and rob her was saved from a life sentence by his youth, the Pietermaritzburg High Court ruled on Tuesday.

KwaZulu-Natal Judge President Vuka Tshabalala (http://www.whoswhosa.co.za/Pages/profilefull.aspx?IndID=949) on Tuesday sentenced David Ngwane to 15 years jail for the housebreaking and aggravated robbery and ordered that the two sentences run concurrently.

His alleged accomplice, Sbonelo Gcabashe, is still being sought.

The victim said she considered the sentence fair but a friend said: "We would have preferred the noose for him."

State advocate Mqobile Maphalala had argued for life in jail for Ngwane as he and Gcabashe had known their victim had money, was living alone and was defenceless. The two broke into her home and robbed her and then raped her.

There was no need to perpetrate the brutal assault on her.

The crimes were perpetrated on the night of December 22.
They broke into the woman's home while she was watching TV.

[LEGEND]

Sounds like Brooklyn though, 2 of my friends had their cars jacked at gunpoint.

[Rudolph]

'I blame the police' (http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_2256812,00.html)
23/01/2008 09:06 - (SA)

Marietie Louw-Carstens, Beeld



Musina - An elderly woman who was cruelly raped during a burglary at her house in town last year, was again the victim of crime.

Burglars broke into the house of Ina Du Toit, 65, and her husband Hannes, 67, on Saturday evening.

Hannes fired three shots at one of the burglars, but nobody was hit.
"I blame the police for this burglary. There are burglaries in our town every night, but the police do nothing," he said angrily.

Police phones out of order

He said nobody answered the phone at the police station. "One of the neighbours who heard the shots fetched the police officers."

"When they arrived they told us the telephones at the station were out of order because of construction work."

Beeld reported on the gruesome rape of Du Toit in September. She insisted on being identified as she wanted "people to wake up about crime in the country".

She had been raped in three different places in her house and people countrywide were shocked by the attack.

In September the burglars removed the lock to the front door of their home in Bergview with a crowbar. The house is well-secured by means of security doors. The two burglars fled with R160, a cellphone and a pair of shoes. Hannes was stabbed repeatedly.

Nobody has been arrested in connection with either of the incidents. On Saturday four burglars broke the burglar bars in front of a window in the lounge.

The one who entered saw an alarm sensor and fled through the window. Du Toit fired three shots at him. Du Toit also blamed the municipality for the broken streetlights.

"The street light in front of our house was broken over the weekend when the burglary took place. I kept phoning the municipality to come and fix it, but nothing happened."

Ina was again traumatised by the latest incident.

"After the rape she spent a week in Limpopo MediClinic in Polokwane. Her whole body collapsed. She is even more anxious now," said her husband. Musina police spokesperson captain Debra Bob said it was nonsense that telephones were not answered because of building at the police station.

[James1900]

Am I glad I was there in 88/89. The Rand was strong, things were cheap and if you wanted a kick you went to Hillbrow.
Haven't been back and not planning to in the near future. I reckon things will get a lot worse before they start getting better, just look at Mugabe's fiefdom.
Good luck!

[Tokamak]

South Africa is the perfect example to show how insane the diversity concept is and what nightmare it could be to live under black rule (1).



(1) I've somewhere on my HD a very interesting video showing president Mandela at a burying ceremony singing a song called "kill the whites"!

I am not saying things in South Africa are perfect but to go to the point of saying that diversity is wrong and that BLACKS can't rule is too much!.

[Tokamak]

Just consulted the family tree book.... Johannes Pretorius arrived on 1 April 1666, although he was working on a ship, and only stayed here permanently after landing on 9 December 1669. That's 338 years of history right here....

That's cool man! I don't even know who my great great grand father was.

[Tokamak]

Crime and violence in SA is at totally unacceptable levels and especially tragic in light of the peacefull manner in which we transitioned from apartheid to democracy. This is not Europe and I will not have my wife walk home on her own late at night. I will lock my doors at night, I pay an alarm company to monitor my house when I’m not there, I lock my cardoors when I get to an intersection and I am aware that I live in a violent crimeridden country. I am however still more likely to die or be hurt in a car accident than become a victim of crime.

I do not live in Europe or some other so called 1st world country. I also have a hell of a lot here that I just simply would never be able to afford, experience, enjoy or have should I have lived in a totally safe 1st world environment.

Whatever you get in life, you pay for in some way. Nothing is free.

Here I pay for my quality of life, great lifestyle, beautiful environment, freedom (from 2mil bloody stupid and petty rules which smothers you in 1st countries), blue skies, comfortable home on a decent sized plot, a bit of almost every imaginable landscape in the world within my own countries’ borders (ranging from mountain to beach, desert to rainforest) and a myriad of other blessing, - with crime, violence, corruption, high unemployment and a number of other evils. It is the price I pay. And I have decided that it is worth it. That is my choice.
I have travelled to 28 different countries, especially the ones SA’cans emigrate to. I have decided that at this stage in my life I can’t imagine living anywhere else in the world. I have in general whilst travelling felt much safer in poor 3rd world countries than in the 1st world. I have lived and worked in 1st world Europe/UK and decided to come back and live and work in South Africa. SAfrica is far from perfect and has many many problems, but it is, to my mind, the one place on this planet where I would most want to live. It is a great place to live. And that is my humble personal opinion, based on actually going out and experiencing the rest of the world, instead of sitting at home complaining.
Somebody else might make a different choice.

Despite being amazed by the crime there, during our visits to some of the universities I also saw hope in many of the students. I know is going to be a painful and most likely a very slow process but as long as people don't see crime and poverty as something normal I think SA will improve.

[playtym]

Picture this scene.

30 to 40 people armed with sjamboks, bottles, knives and guns have blocked a main road with their vehicles, and are stopping passing cars, forcing their occupants out and assualting them in broad daylight.

A scene from a Mad Max movie, you ask?

No, just another day in South Africa.


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6500/documentdf8.jpg

[gammbino]

Picture this scene.

30 to 40 people armed with sjamboks, bottles, knives and guns have blocked a main road with their vehicles, and are stopping passing cars, forcing their occupants out and assualting them in broad daylight.

A scene from a Mad Max movie, you ask?

No, just another day in South Africa.



Wow, that is just terrible :-(. I hope those responsible are caught and swiftly punished. Seems like if the police know about the funeral and the plans for the stolen vehicles they could just sweep up those who actually attend the funeral and find those responsible. Kind of like when the US had a UAV monitoring that Talib commander's funeral but decided against attacking, if you have all the scumbags in one place at one time, why not take advantage?

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is a sjambok and what happens when one is sjambokked?

[Tolstoy]

It's basically a stiff rubber whip used to beat the living daylights out of someone. Hurts like the ****ens!

[R/cst]

Here is some more info and pics of a sjambok

The sjambok or litupa is the traditional heavy leather whip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_%28implement%29) of South Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa), sometimes seen as synonymous with apartheid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid) but actually much older and still used outside the official judiciary. It is made from an adult hippopotamus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippopotamus) (or rhinoceros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros)) hide, or possibly from the ***** (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****) of either species.

A strip of the animal's hide is cut and carved into a strip 3 to 5 feet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot_%28unit_of_length%29) (0.9 to 1.5 m (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre)) long, tapering from about 1 inch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inch) (25 mm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimetre)) thick at the handle to about 3/8” (9 mm) at the tip. This strip is then rolled (possibly between heavy metal plates) until reaching a near circular form. The resulting whip is as flexible as whalebone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whalebone), and very tough.

A plastic version was made for the South African Police Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Police_Service), and used for riot control (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_control).

The sjambok had a variety of uses, with the most obvious being cattle driving. While it may have been synonymous with slave discipline, it was heavily used by the Voortrekkers driving their oxen while migrating from the Cape of Good Hope. Even today, the sjambok is used by herdsmen to drive cattle. They are actually illegal to use in South Africa due to their historic connotations.

The sjambok is also used today in South Africa by those who mete out discpline imposed by Kangaroo courts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_court)





http://www.elinemerchandising.com/media/coldsteel/95SLB.jpg

http://www.teraasekeskus.com/tuotteet/miekatvarusteet/ColdSteelSjambokNet.jpg

http://www.ecstagony.com/_img/_imagart/sjamboked.jpg

[Rudolph]

Getting back on topic... court proceedings have started. One never see any response when white farmers are killed....

Rampage starts race row (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080124/ap_on_re_af/south_africa_rampage;_ylt=AjRzkGgP6c6RbzOrutHZLL5vaA8F)

CAPE TOWN, South Africa - Protesters tried to force their way into the court hearing Thursday of a white teenager charged with a shooting rampage in a black settlement that left four people dead, including a mother and her infant.

The bloodshed on Jan. 14 in the Skielik settlement, 100 miles northwest of Johannesburg, has ignited racial tensions that remain close to the surface more than a decade after the end of South Africa's apartheid system.

Riot police were called in to control the dozens of black protesters who gathered outside the Swartruggens District Court, trying to push through the compound gates as 18-year-old Johan Nel made a brief appearance inside. He faces charges of murder and attempted murder.

The crowd waved signs saying " no bail, let him rot in jail," the South African Press Association reported. Police pushed the group was pushed to the side of the street.

Police are unclear on a motive, but Skielik's residents allege that Nel killed out of racial hatred. Leaders of the trade union movement and African National Congress have joined demonstrations in Skielik, which is part of an area known for its game reserves, biting rural poverty and deep divide between black and white.

"When I see a white skin I shiver and I ask, `Am I not a person like you, so do I not bleed?'" Mayor Wilhelminah Moleko told about 600 mourners at a memorial service shortly after Thursday's court session.

Nel, wearing camouflage and carrying a rifle, allegedly began firing on a group of children as he took a path through the settlement just outside the scenic village of Swartruggens.

Three-month-old Keditlhotse Moithitlhi died instantly and her 31-year-old mother, Anna Moithitlhi, who was carrying the baby on her back, died in hospital. A 10-year-old boy and 35-year-old man were the other dead. Six others were wounded.

Witnesses told local media that the silent shooter paused only to reload before eventually stopping and disappearing. His father handed him over to police.

Friends have described Nel as quiet and well-mannered, although deeply affected by an armed attack by black intruders on his home when he was a boy.

His lawyer Frikkie Pretorius said Thursday that he would ask for a psychiatric evaluation of his client, who appeared in court with his hands and wrists cuffed.

Nel's rampage rekindled memories of a 1988 shooting spree by white supremacist Barend Strydom, who killed eight black people and wounded 16 in the capital Pretoria.

Organizations representing white South Africans say that the killings have led to an outpouring of hate speech they fear will inflame tensions.

[Solvent]

Getting back on topic... court proceedings have started. One never see any response when white farmers are killed....

First time know the situation in South Africa. I am shocked. In my impression, SA is beautiful and safe country.....

Take care, Rudolph

[BlisteringFreakachu]

It's so sad that this topic went from:

"Look, these people were killed by a maniac, it's so sad :(" to "Look how bad white people have it in South Afirca, it's so sad :(" as if the latter totally justifies the former.

[Rudolph]

It's so sad that this topic went from:

"Look, these people were killed by a maniac, it's so sad :(" to "Look how bad white people have it in South Afirca, it's so sad :(" as if the latter totally justifies the former.

The whole point is that he wasn't just some maniac, in case you bothered to read the thread! The way white people, especially farmers, are treated is centre to this whole report. Even Genocide Watch recognises (http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/South_Africa_22_Aug_03_Farmers_tortured_and_murdered_due_to_racial_hatred_-_farm_attack_official_investigation_report.pdf) it. And their report is years old, the numbers are so much higher today. The ANC-shirt-wearing croud were screaming their apartheid-era slogan "kill the boer, kill the farmer" as if this type of thing is a regular, rather than singular, event.

The "poor, hungry peasants" who attack the farms are the very people who voted the ANC into power. The same government that refuses to provide housing, jobs, educations, proper medical care, etc. because they care less for their own ethnic group than the previous government did. Farm attacks started in the early 1990's as a politcal tool by the holy freedom fighters who realised that setting off bombs in shopping malls and restaurants wasn't enough, and to scare the white Afrikaner in his most secure and sacred place: the farm. Too scared to face the army or police directly, they decided that torturing and raping 80-year-olds were much easier. It created a diseased people who are still doing it, and there's no signs of these actions stopping...

And the farm attacks didn't stop after 1994, it intensified. Are the crimes truly all random, or is there still some political motive to try and get the Afrikaners to do something stupid and give the ANC the right to do as they please?

A Bloody Harvest (http://www.carteblanche.co.za/Display/Display.asp?Id=2265)

[BlisteringFreakachu]

You're right! Let's go back to the Apartheid era, then everything will be A-okay for everyone, especially the now-tortured white Afrikaaner male, the keeper of all the misery in the world!

[BlisteringFreakachu]

The whole point is that he wasn't just some maniac, in case you bothered to read the thread!


Nel, wearing camouflage and carrying a rifle, allegedly began firing on a group of children as he took a path through the settlement just outside the scenic village of Swartruggens.

This man was the embodiment of sanity. Obviously sane. Infact, I do that all the time!


The way white people, especially farmers, are treated is centre to this whole report. Even Genocide Watch recognises (http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/South_Africa_22_Aug_03_Farmers_tortured_and_murdered_due_to_racial_hatred_-_farm_attack_official_investigation_report.pdf) it. And their report is years old, the numbers are so much higher today. The ANC-shirt-wearing croud were screaming their apartheid-era slogan "kill the boer, kill the farmer" as if this type of thing is a regular, rather than singular, event.

As tragic that it is, it does not justify this man's murder of innocent people. Doing wrong because your enemy does wrong just makes everyone wrong, and that's not right.


The "poor, hungry peasants" who attack the farms are the very people who voted the ANC into power. The same government that refuses to provide housing, jobs, educations, proper medical care, etc. because they care less for their own ethnic group than the previous government did.

I'm sure the black South African's nostalgia for the Apartheid era will fix that, as opposed to helping different ethnic groups, as well as his own develope his nation.


Farm attacks started in the early 1990's as a politcal tool by the holy freedom fighters who realised that setting off bombs in shopping malls and restaurants wasn't enough, and to scare the white Afrikaner in his most secure and sacred place: the farm. Too scared to face the army or police directly, they decided that torturing and raping 80-year-olds were much easier. It created a diseased people who are still doing it, and there's no signs of these actions stopping...

Just exterminate them all, that's the answer to everything, am I right? Fortunately I'm not. Do something about it rather then crying about that fact that you're disliked and harmed, and this time, people can actually do things to you. And by "do something about it", I don't mean Johann Nel style.


And the farm attacks didn't stop after 1994, it intensified. Are the crimes truly all random, or is there still some political motive to try and get the Afrikaners to do something stupid and give the ANC the right to do as they please?

A Bloody Harvest (http://www.carteblanche.co.za/Display/Display.asp?Id=2265)

Yes, it's all a conspiracy paid for by the United States government and the Zionist regime of the land that's rightfully Palestine. In reality, living in an underdeveloped crime-ridden where the wages for living aren't a lot, the cost towards humanity isn't exactly cheap, so stop blaming and trying to justify inhumanity, and instead try to change it by replacing all of that hatred with decency, etc.etc.

[James1900]

I can't remember reading any post that justified Nel's murder spree.
Nobody has said it's a conspiracy paid for by the United States government and the Zionist regime of the land that's rightfully Palestine. You seem to be the first to dredge up that old chestnut.
... and instead try to change it by replacing all of that hatred with decency, etc.etc.
Yep, that'll probably work...

[Rudolph]

BlisteringFreakachu,

Regarding your post: (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3007591&postcount=75)

1. I am surprised they even let you post here
2. No one mentioned "bringing back apartheid", except you
3. No one mentioned the extermination of the Africans, once again, it's only you. Also, farm workers sometimes die while protecting their bosses. So, it's clearly not condoned by the majority of Africans, so while it is racial, the crimes are only committed by small numbers of Africans, and is not an indication of the general feeling toward the white population. The problem is that the majority will listen to anything the government says, and sometimes the politicians used events like these to manipulate people the wrong way, and that would very well lead to a lot more hatred between the races
4. Then you mention a US and Zionist regime conspiracy...?
5. Considering that over 2,000 white farmers have been killed, and this being the first racial shooting, the white population is actually behaving exceptionally decent. Can't say the same considering the reaction from the other side. When one farm worker dies it gets more publicity than when 10 farmers are murdered
6. I felt a terrible sadness that this young man's soul was destroyed by the crime he grew up with, but I would never condone the slaughter of innocent people. That is not how we do things where I grew up
7. This is a very serious issue and can be seen as a general indication of the ANC of how the they deal not only with crime, but how international focus on these serious issues are hidden behind catch-phrases about freedom and equality, while the reality on the ground is a different matter, and could in a decade or so, even lead to civil war
8. Lastly, I am not moaning because I want everyone to feel sorry for me, I have realised that the only way to avoid said civil war, or large-scale conflicts, is to make people internationally aware of what is going on, so that external influence can force the ANC to deal with some core problems in the country and bring a peaceful resolution to most of our problems. External involvement is crucial, and before that can happen, people have to be made aware of what is going on

[BlisteringFreakachu]

BlisteringFreakachu,

Regarding your post: (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3007591&postcount=75)

1. I am surprised they even let you post here

So am I, what a coincidence.


2. No one mentioned "bringing back apartheid", except you


South Africa is the perfect example to show how insane the diversity concept is and what nightmare it could be to live under black rule

The opposite of the "diversity concept" and living under the rule of the people who make up the majority of the nation is segregation, I'd say, and guess what the title of one of the most successful and vicious segregational minority-rule regimes in history was?


3. No one mentioned the extermination of the Africans, once again, it's only you. Also, farm workers sometimes die while protecting their bosses. So, it's clearly not condoned by the majority of Africans, so while it is racial, the crimes are only committed by small numbers of Africans, and is not an indication of the general feeling toward the white population. The problem is that the majority will listen to anything the government says, and sometimes the politicians used events like these to manipulate people the wrong way, and that would very well lead to a lot more hatred between the races

Then start lobbying for change, and if unsuccessful, that sucks for you. But that's the way of the world.


4. Then you mention a US and Zionist regime conspiracy...?

I was mocking your implication of a black ANC conspiracy.


5. Considering that over 2,000 white farmers have been killed, and this being the first racial shooting, the white population is actually behaving exceptionally decent. Can't say the same considering the reaction from the other side. When one farm worker dies it gets more publicity than when 10 farmers are murdered

That's been the first racial shooting in South Africa? Are you sure about that?


6. I felt a terrible sadness that this young man's soul was destroyed by the crime he grew up with, but I would never condone the slaughter of innocent people. That is not how we do things where I grew up

These people's deaths have basically been ruled out, and instead the topic transfered to how bad white people have it in South Africa, which I think shows which side you're all on which is basically "What's the matter if those four black people died, this young white man lived rather unhappily!"


7. This is a very serious issue and can be seen as a general indication of the ANC of how the they deal not only with crime, but how international focus on these serious issues are hidden behind catch-phrases about freedom and equality, while the reality on the ground is a different matter, and could in a decade or so, even lead to civil war

Well that's fine.


8. Lastly, I am not moaning because I want everyone to feel sorry for me, I have realised that the only way to avoid said civil war, or large-scale conflicts, is to make people internationally aware of what is going on, so that external influence can force the ANC to deal with some core problems in the country and bring a peaceful resolution to most of our problems. External involvement is crucial, and before that can happen, people have to be made aware of what is going on

It seems to me that you're lobbying for hatred. If you really want to start making people aware, forums aren't a very good way to do that. You ought to go out in public or something.

[playtym]

8. Lastly, I am not moaning because I want everyone to feel sorry for me, I have realised that the only way to avoid said civil war, or large-scale conflicts, is to make people internationally aware of what is going on, so that external influence can force the ANC to deal with some core problems in the country and bring a peaceful resolution to most of our problems. External involvement is crucial, and before that can happen, people have to be made aware of what is going on

Rudolph, looking at how the international community has rushed to the aid of the people of Zimbabwe, how long do you think it'll be before your plan works for us?

I reckon they'll start giving a damn right around the time they discover we have huge oil reserves, or weapons of mass destruction (real or imagined).

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5813/image0014aox2.jpg