Israel fired on Rafah demo to protect special forces

[2RHPZ]

Israel says it fired on Rafah demo to protect special forces

JERUSALEM (AFP) May 21, 2004

The Israeli army said Friday it fired earlier this week on Palestinian protesters in Rafah -- shots that claimed 10 lives -- to protect a secret special unit from being cut off from the main contingent.The army feared that Palestinian militants would try to use the hundreds of demonstrators advancing into the sector where the special unit was deployed to surround it, Brigadier General Shmuel Zakai told a press conference.
"The danger stemmed from the fact that armed militants were part of the cortege," said Zakai, commander of Israeli forces operating in the Gaza Strip.
"If they crossed a certain line, we would have been faced with a situation in which some of our forces operating secretly would have been cut off."
On Wednesday, 10 Palestinians, mainly children, were killed and 50 others injured when Israeli troops with tanks backed by a helicopter fired on a protest against their deadly "Operation Rainbow" in Rafah.
The incident sparked a barrage of international indignation and the passage of a UN Security Council resolution criticizing Israel. The United States abstained from the UN vote, rather than using its veto power.
Zakai also said that 50 armed Palestinian militants had been arrested in Rafah since the start of the operation, aimed at rounding up wanted suspects and ending the weapons trade across the border with Egypt.
The general said only five houses used to shelter snipers had thus far been destroyed in the ongoing operation. Residents and witnesses say dozens of homes have been demolished.
On Wednesday, the Israeli army said one missile was fired in an open area as a warning to the Rafah protesters to stop their march.
Four tank shells and automatic weapons fire then ensued as the initial missile fired "did not deter the crowd", according to an army statement.
"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," army spokeswoman General Ruth Yaron said at the time.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040521140121.ceptheil.html

[786mine]

Israel says it fired on Rafah demo to protect special forces

JERUSALEM (AFP) May 21, 2004

The Israeli army said Friday it fired earlier this week on Palestinian protesters in Rafah -- shots that claimed 10 lives -- to protect a secret special unit from being cut off from the main contingent.The army feared that Palestinian militants would try to use the hundreds of demonstrators advancing into the sector where the special unit was deployed to surround it, Brigadier General Shmuel Zakai told a press conference.
"The danger stemmed from the fact that armed militants were part of the cortege," said Zakai, commander of Israeli forces operating in the Gaza Strip.
"If they crossed a certain line, we would have been faced with a situation in which some of our forces operating secretly would have been cut off."
On Wednesday, 10 Palestinians, mainly children, were killed and 50 others injured when Israeli troops with tanks backed by a helicopter fired on a protest against their deadly "Operation Rainbow" in Rafah.
The incident sparked a barrage of international indignation and the passage of a UN Security Council resolution criticizing Israel. The United States abstained from the UN vote, rather than using its veto power.
Zakai also said that 50 armed Palestinian militants had been arrested in Rafah since the start of the operation, aimed at rounding up wanted suspects and ending the weapons trade across the border with Egypt.
The general said only five houses used to shelter snipers had thus far been destroyed in the ongoing operation. Residents and witnesses say dozens of homes have been demolished.
On Wednesday, the Israeli army said one missile was fired in an open area as a warning to the Rafah protesters to stop their march.
Four tank shells and automatic weapons fire then ensued as the initial missile fired "did not deter the crowd", according to an army statement.
"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," army spokeswoman :bash: General Ruth Yaron said at the time.

http://www.spacewar.com/2004/040521140121.ceptheil.html

the general is just bull****ting the people.

[S'13]

the general is just bull****ting the people.

Yes he is... Because as we all know, your the one who knows what really happend over there :cantbeli:

[Haiw]

Better call the war crime prosecutor, he's gonna have some work to do...

[Javehn]

the general is just bull****ting the people.

With all do respect , the only bull****er in here is you .

[alexjulian]

"the general is just bull****ting the people."

Funny that coming from a yank.........oops we just killed 40 terrorists.....oops i mean a wedding party

[S'13]

Better call the war crime prosecutor, he's gonna have some work to do...

Yes, first he needs to deal with the suicied bombings, then with the fact that the Palestinian terrorists use their own people as human shields and so on...

Your right, he does have a lot of work, too bad the international community when it lacks any kind of effectiveness when it comes to these kinds of things.

[IDFM203]

Better call the war crime prosecutor, he's gonna have some work to do...well well well ;)
welcome back to this kind of topic :roll: (its been a while....I had fun the last time around but man that was a long time ;))

Ok so you want to call the war crimes prosecutor, because I know that you apply universal standards and you know you are always calling for war crimes prosecutors in this conflict from the other side as well as also in other conflicts (that are raging around the world) on this forum, its good that I never saw you limit it to only when its done by Israelis :roll:

Shalom :roll:

[Haiw]

Hey, I'm not calling the Palestinians saints, but you just can't deny the fact in this; you PURPOSELY targeted civilian protestors. 10 Palestinians, under which even children were killed, and 50 others were wounded. Now I don't know if you've got 'double standards' in your dictionary, but if the Palestinians would have killed 10 Israelis and wounded another 50 you and others would be crying for choppers to go in the air and wreak some havoc. And now that it's the other way around it suddenly isn't a big deal?! Get real. You continuously claim the moral high ground in the conflict, but when you just brush this off as if it's nothing that high ground becomes rather questionable.
(And in case you're wondering; you wouldn't find me opposing war crime trials for Palestinians either, it's just that you seem to do that yourself already just fine with judge, jury and executive power combined into an Apache chopper)

[Javehn]

I am sick and tired of repeating this :
How times i can say same thing over and over again ????

No one targets civilian in purpose . This is army . And there is such a thing as a millitary drill . There is drill that called "Setting perrimeter by fire" . I bellieve that if you see every second class Hollywood movie you will hear this Haiw "Stop or i shoot" . If someone is getting close he gets WARNING SHOTS . Warning shots done close that the person understand it was ment to him , but still on safe distance . There is formul a to calculate safe distance , but the place for it not here .

There was a perimeter and people tried to breach it . They got warning shots . It's exploded something . No one targets intentionaly , how can i write the same **** over and over and over again . I am ****ing tired for repeating myself .

[Moledet]

Hey, I'm not calling the Palestinians saints, but you just can't deny the fact in this; you PURPOSELY targeted civilian protestors. 10 Palestinians, under which even children were killed, and 50 others were wounded. Now I don't know if you've got 'double standards' in your dictionary, but if the Palestinians would have killed 10 Israelis and wounded another 50 you and others would be crying for choppers to go in the air and wreak some havoc. And now that it's the other way around it suddenly isn't a big deal?! Get real. You continuously claim the moral high ground in the conflict, but when you just brush this off as if it's nothing that high ground becomes rather questionable.
(And in case you're wondering; you wouldn't find me opposing war crime trials for Palestinians either, it's just that you seem to do that yourself already just fine with judge, jury and executive power combined into an Apache chopper)
I prefer that the whole world will be blown up to save just one IDF soldier. This action saved them, period. And for some reason I still haven't heard about this commander declaring that we killed them intentionaly in any Israeli media. So I still go with the first explenation, they shot on an empty building to stop the protestors but it accidently also hit the protestors.

[IDFM203]

Haiw,

no you never call war crimes to anything in Iraq, all the conflicts in Africa, what the Palestinians do, but man when Israel does something, all of a sudden the whole world and you throw a fit and demand calls for war crimes war crimes :roll:

As for the other things you said. Listen I and most Israeli’s do claim the moral hgh ground for I know we mostly do not target ever only civilians, but I also know we aren’t perfect and indeed if we purposely targeted civilians here only just to kill them and that was the intention and it wasn’t a mistake, I know I and most Israelis would condemn it (and we might, if more facts do come out that show that) however the facts are this was a war zone and as of now I see lots of indicators that this was a tragic accident and that the aim was supposed to be at empty building.

Shalom :D

[Haiw]

Oh for christs sake, now you're jumping on me because I only defined the exact war crimes sentence just here? Well here's a newsflash for you: Every war crime, regardless of the nationality of the person who did it should be convicted (well..that is; according to me. One can dream :( . Is that clear enough? (And yes, that would propably mean more convictions for the Palestinians than for the Israelis, I'm well aware of that)
Oh and the reason you're often such a big 'target' for these kind of remarks: you do that yourself. Everytime you claim the moral high ground that always comes with the responsibility to back that up in your behaviour. The same happened with the US in Iraq in that prison; it propably wouldn't be such a big deal if they wouldn't have gone in talking as if they were an army of angels on a crusade for freedom.
Either way, long story short, even when it was an accident someone's gotta pay for it. 10 people died. If you're gonna let 10 innocent people die and not do anything about it you'll find yourself losing your credibility untill you drop to the credibility level of the Palestinian authority. And I suppose that's something you don't want to happen. p-)

[S'13]

Hey, I'm not calling the Palestinians saints, but you just can't deny the fact in this; you PURPOSELY targeted civilian protestors.

You see, this where your wrong, a tank fired warning shots on an abandoned building after a helcopter fired a missile in an open area in order to deter the crowd (which it didn't) sadly one of the explosions from the shells killed some members of the crowd (among them civilians and gunmen).

The IDF admited this was a terrible tragedy however people like you keep poping up and cry out "massacre" and "war crimes" and don't try to understand that fighting terrorists in an urban area is a freaking nightmare (for the reason brought above).


it's just that you seem to do that yourself already just fine with judge, jury and executive power combined into an Apache chopper

Sadly this is the most effective way to do justice. Maybe once buses blow up in Hague or home made rockets will start falling on Amsterdam, you will understand why...

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

On Wednesday, the Israeli army said one missile was fired in an open area as a warning to the Rafah protesters to stop their march.
Four tank shells and automatic weapons fire then ensued as the initial missile fired "did not deter the crowd", according to an army statement.


Hmmm I dont know about that, if a missle came outta no-were and impacted any-were close to me I'd have a fresh litter of kittens for sale.

We probably will never know really what happened, (as usual) but the fact remains that 10 dead with 50 wounded civillians / childern doesnt look good no matter what army you are.

Unfortuneatly the terrorists are just going to use this as another tool for recruitment, sad eh?

[Javehn]

So , basicly next time when a soldier wil sit to clean his rifle he will be accused of war crimes ? Because what happened there was a millitary drill performed . He gone ****storm , but it was a millitary drill . Every single army in the world has it .

[IDFM203]

Oh for christs sake, now you're jumping on me because I only defined the exact war crimes sentence just here? Well here's a newsflash for you: Every war crime, regardless of the nationality of the person who did it should be convicted. Is that clear enough? haha rofl boy was I expecting that line (and waiting for it ;) ), though I was surprised that it took you that long ;)

So here let me repeat my point, “because I know that you apply universal standards and you know you are always calling for war crimes prosecutors in this conflict from the other side as well as also in other conflicts (that are raging around the world) on this forum, its good that I never saw you limit it to only when its done by Israelis”

In other words its great to hear you call for a war crimes prosecuter In other threads on other conflicts in the past year and not only publicly state it when a incident involved Israel :roll:


Anyways something will happen, there will be a review and we will see.. though already politically we are paying a high price and we are paying that price because we do care what happened there and I guarantee you there is already major reviews in the IDF on what happened and how to prevent that from occurring again.

If we targeted civilians for the heck of it, because you know we are evil bloodthirsty Zionists, well then we would just go in and kills hundreds or thousands, but no we decideed to go only after ten because we love to get condemned and also because yeah that’s it, no other reason so here too, we are evil bloodthirsty Zionists :roll:

Shalom :roll:

[fred_engles]

More (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/430204.html).

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Technically how are you supposed to charge terrorists with war crimes? They are not an officall army, they do not have rank or ROE's or adhear to geneva conventions (which dont seem to matter these days but that would be bringing this thread off of topic).

Technically what is a terrorist? If there is a civillian that supports terrorism's cause but doesnt commit any terrorist acts a terrorism a terrorist?

If someone fights against an army from another nation in there country does that make them a terrorist?

Just some thoughts

[Haiw]

haha rofl boy was I expecting that line (and waiting for it ;) ), though I was surprised that it took you that long ;)

So here let me repeat my point, “because I know that you apply universal standards and you know you are always calling for war crimes prosecutors in this conflict from the other side as well as also in other conflicts (that are raging around the world) on this forum, its good that I never saw you limit it to only when its done by Israelis”

In other words its great to hear you call for a war crimes prosecuter In other threads on other conflicts in the past year and not only publicly state it when a incident involved Israel :roll:
Bla bla bla go cry me a ****ing river because I haven't said my thoughts out loud at others times and I did now. Just remember not everyone that says anything that is not in favor of the Israelis is an anti-Israeli. It seems like everytime someone says something bad about Israel you immediately start painting someone with the anti-Semite brush.


Anyways something will happen, there will be a review and we will see.. though already politically we are paying a high price and we are paying that price because we do care what happened there and I guarantee you there is already major reviews in the IDF on what happened and how to prevent that from occurring again.
Aaaaaand that's what counts...and what is basically almost the same as what I said, except that what you said says nothing about consequences for him or them responsible for it. (And even when it was 'an accident', you're still accountable for 10 deaths. That's the way it works)


If we targeted civilians for the heck of it, because you know we are evil bloodthirsty Zionists, well then we would just go in and kills hundreds or thousands, but no we decideed to go only after ten because we love to get condemned and also because yeah that’s it, no other reason so here too, we are evil bloodthirsty Zionists :roll:
If you had paid attention you'd know I don't buy that crap, and I know that if they deliberately targeted civilians they (according to the article) did it to save their own troops, but that doesn't make it right.

[Tane Angle]

Haiw usually seems pretty unbiased when shunning incidents; shuns the Americans when appropriate, shuns the Israelis when appropriate, and certainly shuns terrorists and insurgents when appropriate.

I'm not saying that this was a war crime, but it may well have been. 10 dead including children, plus 50 wounded doesn't sound like warning shots. At least 60 warning shots? The Palestinians aren't deaf or blind, and they aren't idiots; they don't need a barrage for a warning.

Israel does some things right, and some things wrong. Israel is not perfect. Look at what they did during Ashura in 1983 in Nabatiyeh, Lebanon. They not only tried to drive through the holiest ceremony of the Shiites' year, but they opened fire on it when the Shiites gave them dirty looks for the IDF's disrespect. I'm sorry, but it was simply idiotic and ignorant to be there in the first place, and down right criminally insane to shoot. And no, it wasn't just the fault of the soldiers in the convoy; the convoy was on a scheduled, ordered passage through the town; the higher commanders should have known enough to avoid that town in particular during Ashura.

My point is not directed at everyone on this thread of course; just remember, Israel is not perfect. The US certainly isn't either. I've yet to find a nation that is.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[IDFM203]

Bla bla bla go cry me a f*** river because I haven't said my thoughts out loud at others times and I did now. First of all, turst me, I don’t cry **** at your commnts ;) ..just I don’t see you publicly apply universal comments, that’s all.

Yeah I have heard you call for war crimes prosecutors on other threads in the past :roll:


Just remember not everyone that says anything that is not in favor of the Israelis is an anti-Israeli. It seems like everytime someone says something bad about Israel you immediately start painting someone with the anti-Semite brush. and now we are at the most typical and lame tactic yet :roll:

I mean I never called you a anti semtie and in fact I have said this many times, I see others make this charge more so then any of us ever call anyone that.

All I am saying is that you don’t publicly apply universal standards. That’s all!!

I hope you are mature enough to grasp that and not go off thinking that I called you something which I have not!!


As for it being a accident and us still being accountable, of course we are and like I said we will have a review and lets see, but if it was a accident, then its not a war crime, not at all, for if accidents in a warzone net you a war crime, I would think every military in the world would constantly be in war crimes, the Russians, the Americans, the British (members of the coliation that took part in figting) and of course NATO nations during the Bosnia war (and on that I could go on tear if you like ;) ,...but lets save that for now ;) ), etc….

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Ok , i see that my point is not getting there , so i should stop ... I am telling that they killed not from the shell , but from the IED exploded because of it . Jesus Cryst all mighty . Who cares ... Yes , we did it , and we guilty , that's all . end of discussion .

[Javehn]

And finnally , let's say if now i am getting sit on the phone , for 20 minutes i recieve live update from that TC (That is tank commander) who was there , and he will tell me what happend exactly . I don't want to spend time to do it , but i can .

Can any one in here do it ? Or the people on this forum all about assumptions ?? All they can do is write **** on internet without any knowledge ? It is very easy thing to do .

[Haiw]

Bla bla bla go cry me a f*** river because I haven't said my thoughts out loud at others times and I did now. First of all, turst me, I don’t cry **** at your commnts ;) ..just I don’t see you publicly apply universal comments, that’s all.
Like I said in the other thread; if I'd do that I'd have a 5-digit post count by now. The main reason you'd find my posts on the Middle East conflict mostly in considerable anti-Israeli topics is because most things I think are already said in considerably anti-Palestinian topics. Sorry if it doesn't come over clear trough my posting, but on these matters nationality is irrelevant to me.


Just remember not everyone that says anything that is not in favor of the Israelis is an anti-Israeli. It seems like everytime someone says something bad about Israel you immediately start painting someone with the anti-Semite brush. and now we are at the most typical and lame tactic yet :roll:

I mean I never called you a anti semtie and in fact I have said this many times, I see others make this charge more so then any of us ever call anyone that.

All I am saying is that you don’t publicly apply universal standards. That’s all!!

I hope you are mature enough to grasp that and not go off thinking that I called you something which I have not!![/quote]
It's just that your posts in this thread had a pretty hostile smell to them, and the generous usage of sarcasm kind of annoyed me. My apologies if I caught anything wrong, but it's just that I'd rather not be thrown in with the batch of 'usual Israeli-bashers'. Even if my post history might make you think different I do not believe Israel is some magical root of evil in the middle east.



As for it being a accident and us still being accountable, of course we are and like I said we will have a review and lets see, but if it was a accident, then its not a war crime, not at all, for if accidents in a warzone net you a war crime, I would think every military in the world would constantly be in war crimes, the Russians, the Americans, the British (members of the coliation that took part in figting) and of course NATO nations during the Bosnia war (and on that I could go on tear if you like ;) ,...but lets save that for now ;) ), etc….
Maybe I didn't pick the best words, but still...hypothetically, if a fireman screws up and an explosion occurs and 10 people die because of that, then he gets in jail because he's responsible. Even though it might have been an accident he is still thrown in jail like a criminal and convicted on for example a crime like death due to neglicence or something like that.

But let's stop mud-slinging... ;)
Shalom

[IDFM203]

As for the other comments, ok I got you...I could go on ;) , but the level has toned down, so hell you get the last word (again ;) )

Just one response though.... :D


Even though it might have been an accident he is still thrown in jail like a criminal and convicted on for example a crime like death due to neglicence or something like that.ok so I expect to see many NATO members (from the Bosnia war) as well as many many American, British from this Iraq conflict, German and others (and American and British ) from Afghanistan, Russians and others from other conflicts and yes then too some Israelis as well.

Lets apply universal standards and I expect to hear universal public calls for war crimes as well on those nations from the world community all the time.

(This last and the next comment isn’t directed at you but in general)

Listen in truth, it’s a war and war is ugly and dirty and unfortunate things happen, that’s just a fact and its unavoidable, though I personally don’t think accidents in a warzone warrant a war crime, but if you do, then I expect to hear constant calls from it throughout all the conflicts and on a lot of nations soldiers (and no need to even go too far back, anything in the past ten years would suffice to a lot of nations).

Anyways indeed enough mudsling, ok we got things off our chest, great both of us feel better :P

Shalom :D

[Haiw]

You won't hear me opposing a higher accountability on 'collateral damage'. :) If you ask me they really should step up on keeping people responsible for it, and especially with the improvements in technology that actually make that possible we should do all we can to make 'collateral damage' history book terminology. I know it's war and all, and innocents die, but with increasing technology and all I think we should really put some effort into making sure innocents don't get screwed over all the time.
Of course, an accident is an accident, but when ten innocent people die it's too big an accident not to let anyone hang for it, whether in civilian or in military life (and irregardless of nationality).

*chest rises up again* Aaaah...better ;)

Shalom

[usa320]

I do have to agree here that this did cross a line.

If that were concerned with their SF team, they should have extracted them.

Not purposely targeted civilians.

[IDFM203]

You won't hear me opposing a higher accountability on 'collateral damage'. :) Yes but I always hear MUCH LOUDER calls for it from the world when it involves Israel, and actually I don’t hear it as much when it inloves other nations.

Nato bombings in Bosnia, all that’s taken place in Iraq and in Afghanistan, gets IMO much less calls for war crimes and nation condemnations from leaders then when it involves Israel.

that’s all.

As for you others points, well we try, I mean there are thousands of operations each year that go through maticules planning to avoid any civilian casualties, hell every day there are operations, we are in a war, so yes we use everything at our disposal and the IDF is a very technologically advanced military and we have a lot that helps in preventing major collateral damage, but in war its just a fact that no matter what, there will be cases of collateral damage and its unfortunate, but when a lot of times they purposely use human shields, its not always possible to avoid killing any civilians

Just for example, we try to arrest when possible but frankly a lot of times its just impossible, so sending a apache helicopter is actually much more safer with its specialized targeting systems (and a lot of times indeed civilians are killed and a lot of times none are) then sending in a infantry battlian to get a hamas leader or hamas bomb maker or one that has killed Israeli or is about to, for sending in infentry is a lot more dangerous to the civilians there, even if we go out of our way to avoid any civilian casualties.

Ok good got more off my chest as well ;)

Shalom :D

[Javehn]

Not purposely targeted civilians

Ok , for the 40 time , i see it is a mistake to try to explain that it is not it . Who am i kidding ... :|

[SpikeATGM]

Better call the war crime prosecutor, he's gonna have some work to do...

There is no need to. The palestinian knows that that is a war zone and there is a curfew. Despite knowing all these, they still went in willingly knowing the dangers of their action. If that the case, good luck to them. Israel should not be held responsible for ever single mishap that happen.

[AirZone]

Not purposely targeted civilians

Ok , for the 40 time , i see it is a mistake to try to explain that it is not it . Who am i kidding ... :| Poor Javehn, Look they think that because we fired on thier direction we did purposely to kill them, thier problem.

And you forgot one thing guys.. Gaza is really tiny with many many many many (the most crowded in the world) its allmost impossible to move.. i can expline but I think its worthless and I will just waste my time... but lets say it like that - no other nation in the world had our problem like we do (hell Bagdad is HUGE)

עזוב הם נאצים מסריחולים שהאמריקאים השטיחו את אפגאניסטן הם לא אמרו דבר

[S'13]

Not purposely targeted civilians.

The problem is that the IDF didn't purposely targeted civilians, it was a case of a military drill gone wrong.

You do understand that these kinds of accidents happen in war?

I'd expect that an American, out all people, would understand what we are going through. :|

[AirZone]

Most of them do.. but some of them think otherwise. Its funny like some think the War in Iraq is good but our fight against the palastines is bad (not to montion that USA is WAY harder on the Iraqi than we are on the palastines)