Mexican state whines about influx of Mexican workers

[Jeremiah]

What a joke read this lol.

Published: 01.16.2008

A delegation of nine state legislators from Sonora was in Tucson on Tuesday to say Arizona's new employer sanctions law will have a devastating effect on the Mexican state.

At a news conference, the legislators said Sonora - Arizona's southern neighbor, made up of mostly small towns - cannot handle the demand for housing, jobs and schools it will face as illegal Mexican workers here return to their hometowns without jobs or money.

The law, which took effect Jan.1, punishes employers who knowingly hire individuals who don't have valid legal documents to work in the United States. Penalties include suspension or loss of a business license.
Its intent is to eliminate or curtail the top draw for immigrants to this country - jobs.

The Mexican delegation, members of Sonora's 58th Legislature, belong to the National Action Party (PAN), the party of Mexico's president, Felipe Calderón.
They spoke at the offices of Project PPEP, a nonprofit that provides job retraining for farmworkers and other programs.

The lawmakers were to travel to Phoenix for a Wednesday breakfast meeting with Hispanic legislators.

They want to tell them how the law will affect Mexican families on both sides of the border.

"How can they pass a law like this?" asked Mexican Rep. Leticia Amparano Gamez, who represents Nogales.

"There is not one person living in Sonora who does not have a friend or relative working in Arizona," she said in Spanish.

"Mexico is not prepared for this, for the tremendous problems" it will face as more and more Mexicans working in Arizona and sending money to their families return to hometowns in Sonora without jobs, she said.

"We are one family, socially and economically," she said of the people of Sonora and Arizona.

Amparano said the Mexican legislators are already asking the federal government of Mexico for help for Sonora.

Rep. Florencio Diaz Armenta, coordinator of the delegation, represents San Luis, south of Yuma, one of Arizona's agricultural hubs, which employs some 28,000 legal Mexican workers.

"What do we do with the repatriated?" he asked. "As Mexicans, we are worried. They are Mexicans but they are also people - fathers and mothers and young people with jobs" who won't have work in Sonora."

He said the Arizona law will lead to "disintegration of the family," as one "legal" Mexican parent remains in Arizona and the other returns to Mexico.

Rep. Francisco Garcia Gámez, a legislator from Cananea and that city's former mayor, said the lack of mining jobs there has driven many Mexicans to Arizona to find work. He said they depend on jobs in Arizona to feed their families on both sides of the border.

Gov. Janet Napolitano, in her State of the State speech Monday, said the new law needs some modifications, including a better definition of what constitutes a complaint.

Barrett Marson, director of communications for the Arizona House of Representatives, said Speaker Jim Weiers, R-Phoenix, "has some concerns about how the law will be administered and applied."

He said the speaker sought testimony from the business community last fall "to get ideas about how to make following the law easier. In the end, that's what he wants - compliance, but make it as easy as possible to do."

Marson said Weiers is "waiting for the governor to come out with her idea of what she wants to do" before he makes his own recommendations.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/altss/printstory/border/74193

[FelixA9]

Priceless.

[Invisigoth]

Not quite sure whether to laugh or to cry...

[CG51]

I'm laughing so hard I'm crying

[gaijinsamurai]

Tough sh!t. They need to deal with their problem, not us.

[Tokamak]

This looks bad. It is not the US government responsibility to take care of the Mexican citizens, but to call them retarded and leeches I think not.

[Hollis]

One aspect is to work with them. After all we are neighbors. There is a thing called spirit of cooperation.

[Hot Lips]

I find it hard to sympathize with their not having a job waiting for them. They shouldn't have had jobs here in the first place. Even if they stay, they should not by default get to keep a job obtained illegally and may have displaced a legal worker in the first place.

Their government has known this was an increasing problem for some time and while they sat back and benefited from it (people sending money home which was spent in their economy, etc), they should have been preparing for the matter to be corrected at some point.

If my neighbor keeps coming into my backyard and taking my patio furniture and stuff HOME with them, darned if I'm going to help my neighbor buy new patio furniture because he won't have any once the cops bring mine back.




.

[Hollis]

I find it hard to sympathize with their not having a job waiting for them. They shouldn't have had jobs here in the first place. Even if they stay, they should not by default get to keep a job obtained illegally and may have displaced a legal worker in the first place.

Their government has known this was an increasing problem for some time and while they sat back and benefited from it (people sending money home which was spent in their economy, etc), they should have been preparing for the matter to be corrected at some point.

If my neighbor keeps coming into my backyard and taking my patio furniture and stuff HOME with them, darned if I'm going to help my neighbor buy new patio furniture because he won't have any once the cops bring mine back.




.


I can agree on the illegal immigration issues. Nail them there. Most are workers, who work and earn. I can not fault them for that aspect. I don't think a solution will happen right away, because of the volatility of political aspect of this. I think Bush had a pretty good idea, on documented worker.


I think the first amnesty during the Reagan period was a big mistake.

I think it is a solution that requires both countries to solve.

Again, I think the Politicians in this country are just as much to blame as those in Mexico.

[tyovan]

"We are one family, socially and economically," she said of the people of Sonora and Arizona.

Then they shouldn't mind welcoming their family back home..


And we're not one 'family' politically. Mexico has been using the US as a safety valve for too long - its time they do something to clean up their corrupt country themselves instead of encouraging people to move illegally up here and send our money down to them.

[LaoSexMachine]

I think it is a solution that requires both countries to solve.

Again, I think the Politicians in this country are just as much to blame as those in Mexico.

Agree. A man who calls himself a man would try to do anything to support his family.

[phoebus]

Illegal adults in any country should be deported, without a single exception. Poeple hiring or shipping them should also face legal consequences.

Once this fundamental rule is broken, anyone would try to crash the party, knowing that he can go away with it. It's fair to the citizens, it's fair for people waiting for their green cards.

[Shadowstorm]

Some of you guys don't understand not all the legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico are not up here to take jobs or to start trouble, but get away from the violence and problems from the drug and rebel problems in the North and South of Mexico.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

there are other places that they can go, if they want to enter the country they can do so legally like millions have already done.

My family and I had to flee honduras and we entered the country legally and are all now citizens.

[Hollis]

there are other places that they can go, if they want to enter the country they can do so legally like millions have already done.

My family and I had to flee honduras and we entered the country legally and are all now citizens.


Well your family was lucky. Many people never have the chance or opportunity. Mexico shares a common border with the US. Coming to the US is not much like your family going to El Salvador, just a walk.

Ideally, the legal way is the best. I was in Honduras in the 60's is was nicer than El Salvador. I don't know if Mexicans can get Political asylum in the US.

It is not a easy or simple issue.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Do you Americans honestly believe the Border States would ever become secure and the immigration would stop?

The region is ex Spanish/Mexican territory, always had major law enforcement problems, always had large migration between areas.

[Shadowstorm]

You ain't lying their man. They think a border wall and these other laws their proposing and think they will work. But really tell you the truth, people will always find a loophole to get over these obstacles.

[that_one_guy]

I'd like to hear from our members from Mexico on their take of this situation.

[Hot Lips]

A man who calls himself a man would try to do anything to support his family.

I don't fault a man for wanting to support his family. I do fault the man who goes about it illegally in an effort to undercut good people who have the same goal, yet retain the integrity to go about it the right way. The man who does things the right way doesn't care for his family any less (and to imply such is deplorable), but shows a greater compassion for the common good. The man who spits on the common good and undermines his neighbor for personal gain and then whines about not being treated neighborly when he gets caught isn't much of a man in my eyes.

Everything they do from the moment they cross the border is illegal because everything they do is based upon lie after lie after lie. Period. There is no sugar coating that.

Personally, I would rather send illegals home and allow passage to the good folks that have been struggling through the process the right and respectful way, than allow those who have already proven themselves to be untrustworthy to remain. Those kind of (in country) neighbors I can live without.

[Miles.]

I'd like to hear from our members from Mexico on their take of this situation.

Honestly, you probably wouldn't.


More than a few members from Mexico have been axed for outright racism & childish behavior in discussions about the illegal immigration issue.

It's not pleasant.

[Miles.]

I don't fault a man for wanting to support his family. I do fault the man who goes about it illegally in an effort to undercut good people who have the same goal, yet retain the integrity to go about it the right way. The man who does things the right way doesn't care for his family any less (and to imply such is deplorable), but shows a greater compassion for the common good. The man who spits on the common good and undermines his neighbor for personal gain and then whines about not being treated neighborly when he gets caught isn't much of a man in my eyes.

Supporting your family is the common good.


Otherwise, the children become MS-13 members.


You are very vindictive on this subject, HL.

[shocker1]

I totally agree with Hotlips. This should really get you fired up.
http://www.youtube.com/v/8oTQoZifckU&rel=1

[Hot Lips]

Supporting your family is the common good.


Otherwise, the children become MS-13 members.


You are very vindictive on this subject, HL.

It is not the common good - to ignore the rules and laws of the community in which you want to live and prosper - at all. What you are seemingly condoning, with a statement like that, is an every man for himself and damned all others way of life. I prefer something more civilized. That kind of thinking is a step backwards, not forwards.

I don't think it vindictive to embrace those who are willing to go through the process the right way rather than those who have proven they are willing to ignore the laws of our country for personal gain. I fail to see the benefit of teaching the masses that it's OK to break the law.

[Miles.]

I don't think it vindictive to embrace those who are willing to go through the process the right way rather than those who have proven they are willing to ignore the laws of our country for personal gain. I fail to see the benefit of teaching the masses that it's OK to break the law.

On the basis of equality under the law, I agree with you completely. American citizens are the ones being ****ed in all this.


But I don't support deportation.

I support a complete halt to all unchecked illegal immigration. Once we get a hold of it, then get some sort of citizenship initiative started.

[Miles.]

If you don't support your kids (and therefore teach them how to do the same for their kids), they become criminals.

What's worse for society as whole?

Fradulent employment or gangs of unemployed Hispanics?

[Hollis]

I don't think it vindictive to embrace those who are willing to go through the process the right way rather than those who have proven they are willing to ignore the laws of our country for personal gain. I fail to see the benefit of teaching the masses that it's OK to break the law.


I think that is something the Politicians are messing up on. Right now it is a political hot potato. D's and R's and stirring the pot to enlist emotional support for their personal plan of salvation from this issue. I doubt either one will work. For the D's and R's it is not about immigration is about the Votes.

Maybe after the Presidential elections things might cool down enough for some sort of workable solution.

[Hot Lips]

On the basis of equality under the law, I agree with you completely. American citizens are the ones being ****ed in all this.


But I don't support deportation.

I support a complete halt to all unchecked illegal immigration. Once we get a hold of it, then get some sort of citizenship initiative started.

To not support deportation, IMO, is to teach people that if enough of them break the law.... that makes it OK. To allow people that came here illegally to stay is to embrace law breakers. As a result, we'll be forced to turn away good people that tried to do things the right way. I'd rather have them here.

[Dragunov]

If the requirements to get a passport/legal resident visa woul be less strict than more people would go to the USA legally. I dont know whats the case in other countries, but in Mexico you have to be wealthy/college student/have a degree, in order to get a passport/visa. The poor people dont have a chance when they apply for it.

[Miles.]

If enough people break a law, then you can't enforce it...regardless of what folks are being taught.

"What should be" and "what is", especially with illegal immigration, are two drastically different universes.

[Hot Lips]

If you don't support your kids (and therefore teach them how to do the same for their kids), they become criminals.

What's worse for society as whole?

Fradulent employment or gangs of unemployed Hispanics?

If you teach your kids to support their family at all cost, including breaking the law..... they are criminals. Period.

[Miles.]

If the requirements to get a passport/legal resident visa woul be less strict than more people would go to the USA legally. I dont know whats the case in other countries, but in Mexico you have to be wealthy/college student/have a degree, in order to get a passport/visa. The poor people dont have a chance when they apply for it.

No, that's not it.


Coming the United States on a passport/visa would indicate you have some sort of reason to be in the US.

Setting up a Little House on the Prarie isn't a valid reason.

What I mean is: we don't have a Homestead Act for foreign citizens.

Sorry, that sounded mean.

[Hot Lips]

If enough people break a law, then you can't enforce it...regardless of what folks are being taught.

"What should be" and "what is", especially with illegal immigration, are two drastically different universes.

You can enforce it. It may be a longer, harder process, but it's one worth taking. Short cuts are lazy and counter productive.

[Miles.]

If you teach your kids to support their family at all cost, including breaking the law..... they are criminals. Period.

I love it when you're right. ;)



Although "all costs" mean different things to different people.

[Miles.]

You can enforce it. It may be a longer, harder process, but it's one worth taking. Short cuts are lazy and counter productive.

Look, you can march them on a Trail of Tears if you want to.


I happen to think mass deportations are a bit messy, and well...Third Reich-ish.

[shocker1]

If
What's worse for society as whole?

Fradulent employment or gangs of unemployed Hispanics?
This is the whole issue here. Actually enforce employment laws, the ones I have on a post board next to my desk. It was once a high paying job as a carpenter, mason ect... when I was starting out. $12 an hour on average. That was 15 years ago. It is still around that and less. Americans used to do a lot of these jobs. Now American contractors hire gangs of illegals at below skilled labor norms. Forcing others to do the same to compete. Agri business has a need for temporary workers and we need a system that supplies that. Americans do not like those type jobs that is true. However, factory jobs like the textile industry, construction and service have been depressed under what an American can live on. Many times with no insurance and pensions like the old days. Employers who engage in practices such as this insult honest American business persons such as myself.

[California Joe]

I happen to think mass deportations are a bit messy, and well...Third Reich-ish.

Oh no you diiiiin't!

[Miles.]

This is the whole issue here. Actually enforce employment laws, the ones I have on a post board next to my desk. It was once a high paying job as a carpenter, mason ect... when I was starting out. $12 an hour on average. That was 15 years ago. It is still around that and less. Americans used to do a lot of these jobs. Now American contractors hire gangs of illegals at below skilled labor norms. Forcing others to do the same to compete. Agri business has a need for temporary workers and we need a system that supplies that. Americans do not like those type jobs that is true. However, factory jobs like the textile industry, construction and service have been depressed under what an American can live on. Many times with no insurance and pensions like the old days. Employers who engage in practices such as this insult honest American business persons such as myself.

I understand that **** cannot go on like this. The consequences are lose/lose for Americans and win/win for illegals in the current system (or lack of).

[Miles.]

Oh no you diiiiin't!

Indeed. I did.

[Hot Lips]

Look, you can march them on a Trail of Tears if you want to.


I happen to think mass deportations are a bit messy, and well...Third Reich-ish.

Not Third Reich-ish at all. The inference that is racist or somehow inhumane is inflammatory, unfounded, and sounds rather uneducated. It's about not embracing criminal behavior. Period. We'll be forced to turn away good people doing things the right and respectful way because you'd seemingly rather live next door to someone that is willing to break any law, any time, for personal benefit.

Tears? Please. Many a criminal sheds a tear in court when a guilty verdict is handed down, but they took that burden upon themselves when they willingly broke the laws of our country.

[Hollis]

Shocker, A guy I know is a eletrician, he blames the Mexicans, I blame the employers.


If people did not hire Illegals, why would they come to the US, then? A union organizer J. Hill, stated a man with a wife and kids is a natural born scab, he has to work. I just can not fault someone trying to improve their life and that of their family.

[shocker1]

Look, you can march them on a Trail of Tears if you want to.


I will be a lot safer than how most got here. It will be cheaper than the coyotes and no jumping barbed wire fences scaring cattle. We will have trash cans for their need to throw things away while they travel, water fountains and free lunch. Mexico just forces them out using socioeconomic barriers so should we, at least with us they will make it back.

[Hollis]

Look, you can march them on a Trail of Tears if you want to.


I happen to think mass deportations are a bit messy, and well...Third Reich-ish.


I was sort of agreeing with you, until you post something as inane as this. This is nothing more than political diatribe, Utterly meaningless.

[FelixA9]

Look, you can march them on a Trail of Tears if you want to.


I happen to think mass deportations are a bit messy, and well...Third Reich-ish.

How is upholding the law "Third Reich-ish"? If the law had been followed all along this whole thing wouldn't even be an issue. The people who came here illegally created the problem, not the US.

[Hot Lips]

Shocker, A guy I know is a eletrician, he blames the Mexicans, I blame the employers.

I blame them both. Adam wasn't less guilty of sinning simply because Eve held out the Apple. They both knew the rules. They both broke them.

[shocker1]

They way I see it is Mexico will never change if the disaffected people are not there to demand change. We must make the hard choice for Mexico and put the humanitarian issue on their doorstep. Only then can the People of Mexico actually change things IMO. If they can run away easily, how will the socio-economic disparities in Mexico ever be solved?

Some act like we are sending them off to their doom. Is this the case down south?

[Hot Lips]

I love it when you're right. ;)



Although "all costs" mean different things to different people.

Breaking the law, is breaking the law. That means the same thing to most people.

[FelixA9]

Shocker, A guy I know is a eletrician, he blames the Mexicans, I blame the employers.


If people did not hire Illegals, why would they come to the US, then? A union organizer J. Hill, stated a man with a wife and kids is a natural born scab, he has to work. I just can not fault someone trying to improve their life and that of their family.


Nobody is faulting them that. It's the method that's the problem. If a guy set up a meth lab nextdoor to you to support his family would you be happy about it?

[Miles.]

Not Third Reich-ish at all. The inference that is racist or somehow inhumane is inflammatory, unfounded, and sounds rather uneducated. It's about not embracing criminal behavior. Period. We'll be forced to turn away good people doing things the right and respectful way because you'd seemingly rather live next door to someone that is willing to break any law, any time, for personal benefit.

Tears? Please. Many a criminal sheds a tear in court when a guilty verdict is handed down, but they took that burden upon themselves when they willingly broke the laws of our country.

First, you have to find every illegal. Then, you have to put them in a place where you won't lose track of them before they're shipped out. Let's call it a "ghetto." Just for laughs, ya know?

My point is: you will never convince anyone that mass deportations are the answer. It's a logistical nightmare. And it's vindictive.

We, as Americans, have to stop illegal immigration. But you can't take retribution - it's not a murder charge. I think what I am saying is pretty realistic.

[Miles.]

I was sort of agreeing with you, until you post something as inane as this. This is nothing more than political diatribe, Utterly meaningless.

Hey, its ok. I don't have to be agreed with.

[shocker1]

Enforce employment law, provide a migrant worker system, illegals cannot work, some go home, some turn to crime, those will and should be deported.

[Miles.]

They way I see it is Mexico will never change if the disaffected people are not there to demand change. We must make the hard choice for Mexico and put the humanitarian issue on their doorstep. Only then can the People of Mexico actually change things IMO. If they can run away easily, how will the socio-economic disparities in Mexico ever be solved?

Some act like we are sending them off to their doom. Is this the case down south?

Hey, Mexico is totally the fault of Mexicans. Just like America.


So no, they won't die of political assassinations. They just won't have a pot to piss in.

[Hot Lips]

First, you have to find every illegal. Then, you have to put them in a place where you won't lose track of them before they're shipped out. Let's call it a "ghetto." Just for laughs, ya know?

My point is: you will never convince anyone that mass deportations are the answer. It's a logistical nightmare. And it's vindictive.

We, as Americans, have to stop illegal immigration. But you can't take retribution - it's not a murder charge. I think what I am saying is pretty realistic.

No, we don't HAVE to find them all nor do we HAVE to do it all at once. All we have to do is make it known that our laws actually mean something and that we are willing to pursue enforcing them. Some may very well slip through the cracks - as with other criminals. It may be a long process - as some criminal cases are. It's the same process we go through with most criminals in this country. We just need to stop turning a blind eye to it and avoid going belly up "because it's too hard". It may even create law enforcement jobs, which I think should be funded by the businesses that were profiting by hiring illegals.

As for where you hold them. Instead of a "ghetto" let's call it "prison". You know, that place we send criminals. But instead of serving a sentence, they get to go home to their family, their country, their community.

What you are saying is that enforcing the laws of our country is vindictive. Of that you will never convince me. I don't consider the members of our national defense and law enforcement branches "vindictive" for doing their jobs.

I think the long term affects of what you are supporting (every man for himself, break any law for personal gain, don't enforce the law if it becomes too much work) is more detrimental to our nation.

[Hollis]

I blame them both. Adam wasn't less guilty of sinning simply because Eve held out the Apple. They both knew the rules. They both broke them.


Again as Joe Hill started, "A man with a wife and kids is a natural born scab."

Joe Hill was a union organizer and scabs are the lowest of the low to them. His point is based on humanity.

Let's face we all break the law at one time or another. Not all laws are equally the same, in regards to punishment and impact on society.

Immigration is a very important issue. It is not a clear cut black and white issue.

Your speeding down the road, is more for self interest. A illegal worker violating the law, may not even be self interested, but concerns for the well being of his family.
So who is the greater law breaker?


Part of the problem is opportunity. Being born on one side of a river or another that greatly effect the opportunities a person can have in their life.


I am not saying Illegal workers should be rewarded for violating the law. I think they should shipped back to where they came and maybe even pay for that trip.

I also feel there is a great burden on employees who offer incentives for Illegals to work for them. Maybe we can charge the employers the cost to ship the Illegals back.

[shocker1]

Hey, Mexico is totally the fault of Mexicans. Just like America.


So no, they won't die of political assassinations. They just won't have a pot to piss in.
When people have no pot in their country. They should strive to change the country, we are just providing the corrupt Mexican elite with a pressure release. there is no good reason other than corruption that a rich, resourceful and beautiful country and people should not be on par with America economically. This is a hard road for some, but making a better nation is never easy.

[Miles.]

When people have no pot in their country. They should strive to change the country, we are just providing the corrupt Mexican elite with a pressure release. there is no good reason other than corruption that a rich, resourceful and beautiful country and people should not be on par with America economical. This is a hard road for some, but making a better nation is never easy.

This is where you and I agree.

The Mexican elite AND the American elite benefit from our current chaos/nightmare.

Standby, HL, I've got a reply.

[Hollis]

Nobody is faulting them that. It's the method that's the problem. If a guy set up a meth lab nextdoor to you to support his family would you be happy about it?


Different issue. It is not black and white or simple legal Vs Illegal. A guy working Illegally planting trees is not the same as a guy working illegally making meth.

[shocker1]

Did anybody watch the Lou Dobb's video I posted a page or two back? The Mexican Gov. is paying hundreds of thousands to an American Ad firm to influence the election.

[Miles.]

No, we don't HAVE to find them all nor do we HAVE to do it all at once. All we have to do is make it know that our laws actually mean something and that we are willing to pursue enforcing them. Some may very well slip through the cracks as with other criminals. It may be a long process as some criminal cases are. It's the same process we go through with most criminals in this country. We just need to stop turning a blind eye to it and avoid going belly up "because it's too hard". It may even create law enforcement jobs, which I think should be funded by the businesses that were profiting by hiring illegals.

What you are saying is that enforcing the laws of our country is vindictive. Of that you will never convince me. I think the long term affects of what you are supporting (every man for himself, break any law for personal gain, don't enforce the law if it becomes too much work) is more detrimental to our nation.

Part of my stand on this issue comes from my experiences with illegals, especially Mexicans, in Texas.

I am, and have been, at the same socio-economic level as many illegal immigrants. I've lived in "our" neighborhoods for 15 years of my life. It's an emotional issue for me.

Another part of my stand on this issue comes from my belief that the American government is "a criminal gang," concerned with profits and self-perpetuation. In my opinion, inaction on the part of law enforcement can be a good thing, in certain situations.

Your characterization that it is "every man for himself" is inaccurate, in my opinion.

"Every man for his family" is more like it. And I can think of many American men who can't say that for themselves.


Retroactive punishment, on a grand scale, for a "crime" that the American government allowed to go on -BECAUSE it is profitable and will eventually bring in a malleable voter base- is not fitting.

[shocker1]

"Every man for his family" is more like it. And I can think of many American men who can't say that for themselves.
Yeah, but they are our SOB's so we must put up with them.

[Miles.]

Yeah, but they are our SOB's so we must put up with them.

Certainly don't garner my respect. Let's put them in the almond fields in Chico, CA.

[shocker1]

Certainly don't garner my respect. Let's put them in the almond fields in Chico, CA.
You know, if there was a proper employment service this would be possible. The Labor dept here has a line out the door everyday. You look at the jobs and there are few for low skilled workers. The ones standing there waiting in line, while armies of illegals work.

Those damn Americans cost an employer more money though. State/Federal UI, FICA contribution, Medic contribution. Plus you have to offer them a future. Or they could hire Americans under contract labor like some do. Then you have to pay them more.

[Miles.]

For that matter, while developing a new and more efficient Labor dept., we could use some inaction on the part of Congress (actively doing their part to keep us dependent on Saudis) and start drilling oil and put armies of whoever-the-feck-wants-to-work in the fields.


Almost like a new industry.

[LaoSexMachine]

I work with alot of Latinos. They are hard workers but when I drive around Houston from site to site I see nothing but"Americans who are panhandling. I bet you they can get a job with my company but I huess to them panhandling is an easier "job".

[FelixA9]

First, you have to find every illegal. Then, you have to put them in a place where you won't lose track of them before they're shipped out. Let's call it a "ghetto." Just for laughs, ya know?

My point is: you will never convince anyone that mass deportations are the answer. It's a logistical nightmare. And it's vindictive.


Vindictive? Are you joking? If I get a ticket for speeding is the cop being vindictive? If I go to jail for murder are the courts being vindictive? Personally if I were them I'd MUCH rather be deported than be sent to prison.

[Hot Lips]

Another part of my stand on this issue comes from my belief that the American government is "a criminal gang,"

Puhlease.


Your characterization that it is "every man for himself" is inaccurate, in my opinion.

"Every man for his family" is more like it. And I can think of many American men who can't say that for themselves.


Retroactive punishment, on a grand scale, for a "crime" that the American government allowed to go on -BECAUSE it is profitable and will eventually bring in a malleable voter base- is not fitting.

Miles I have to believe you are playing devils advocate, because I'd find it disturbing if you truly believe most of what you're saying.

I don't consider it vindictive of the members of our national defense, law enforcement, nor government do their job... which is in place uphold the laws of our nation. I think it absurd to label law enforcement as vindictive. Crime thrives on that kind of mentality.

"Every man for his family" regardless of the laws of community he wants to be a part of is "every man for himself" mentality. You can try to sugar coat it, but it's still criminal and against the common good. Working against the community will ultimately hurt a mans family as well. Criminals find this out the hard way when they go to prison and leave their family behind struggling to make ends meet without them. A person is not a member of a community with that kind of outlook and doesn't deserve to stay in the community if that is the case.

All punishment for crime is retroactive. The criminal has already committed the crime by the time they are caught. Thwarting the law briefly does not erase the crime. Let those who profited from it (the businesses that hired them, primarily) pay for it.

The businesses that hire them and the Americans who didn't turn them in(you included yourself among them) are the ones that allowed it. But I don't get the impression you take responsibility for your community (America), our laws, etc because it just seems "too hard". Better to just give in, move on, and hope for the best.

No thanks.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Wow Hotlips in the political bullpen. Just wow.

[FelixA9]

Different issue. It is not black and white or simple legal Vs Illegal. A guy working Illegally planting trees is not the same as a guy working illegally making meth.


True, but the issue here was that breaking the law was justified because the guy was doing it to support his family. Somebody taking a bit extra out of the cash register to support their family isn't making meth either but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't say "it's cool, he was just supporting his family" :) You break the law you pay the price. In general the courts don't seem to care WHY you broke the law.

[Hollis]

True, but the issue here was that breaking the law was justified because the guy was doing it to support his family. Somebody taking a bit extra out of the cash register to support their family isn't making meth either but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't say "it's cool, he was just supporting his family" :) You break the law you pay the price. In general the courts don't seem to care WHY you broke the law.


If you read my other posts, I mentioned that amnesty was a mistake and that they should be held accountable.


BTW, look up mitigating reasons. Depending on the crime there can be mitigating circumstances that can effect outcome and punishment.

[Miles.]

Puhlease.

If you believe the US government and the people who run it care about you and your well-being...all I have to say is...enjoy the bliss.



Miles I have to believe you are playing devils advocate, because I'd find it disturbing if you truly believe most of what you're saying.

I don't consider it vindictive of the members of our national defense, law enforcement, nor government do their job... which is uphold the laws of our nation. I think it absurd to label law enforcement as vindictive.

The individual members of law enforcement, themselves, are not the problem. Politicians who make the laws are. They solidify their position atop society through government power. To allow illegal immigration to go on at the scale that it has and is, and then to focus on the illegals themselves as the profiteers and criminal element - is just an attempt to shift the blame off of the American elite (politicans/big business) and hide their responsibility.


"Every man for his family" regardless of the laws of community he wants to be a part of is "every man for himself" mentality. You can try to sugar coat it, but it's still criminal and against the common good. Working against the community will ultimately hurt a mans family as well. Criminals find this out the hard way when they go to prison and leave their family behind struggling to make ends meet without them. A person is not a member of a community with that kind of outlook and doesn't deserve to stay in the community if that is the case.

All punishment for crime is retroactive. The criminal has already committed the crime by the time they are caught. Thwarting the law briefly does not erase the crime.

The businesses that hire them and the Americans who didn't turn them in(you included yourself among them) are the ones that allowed it. But I don't get the impression you take responsibility for your community (America), our laws, etc because it just seems "too hard". Better to just give in, move on, and hope for the best.

No thanks.

I agree that all laws should be enforced equally.

Sadly, that's not the case. It's just reality.

But what is real, is taking a hammer and a nail everyday, and feeding your family and buying the little bastard some new shoes, a girl's quincenera, etc.

I'm very apprehensive about deportation, because I think it would change the landscape of America for the worse. These are good people.

What Ezekiel said is true. Illegals work. It's just a matter of time before they are incorporated as citizens in this country.

The only matter left is to shut off the faucet.

[Miles.]

However, I do declare you to be intellectually superior, Hot Lips. I am going completely off-topic.

Therefore, you win.



Collect your tickets and grab you a spider ring. Or a yo-yo.

[Tokamak]

Honestly, you probably wouldn't.


More than a few members from Mexico have been axed for outright racism & childish behavior in discussions about the illegal immigration issue.

It's not pleasant.

Agree, but if you read some of the comments constantly made you would understand until certain extent why anyone would react like that. For example at the beginning of this thread someone call them leeches instead of having a discussion as you are currently having. When you start calling them names is when problem starts.

I totally agree, I hope this put serious pressure on the Mexican government and for once the people stop blaming the past and external factors. I had said it many times, each country has the government that it deserves.

[FelixA9]

If you read my other posts, I mentioned that amnesty was a mistake and that they should be held accountable.


BTW, look up mitigating reasons. Depending on the crime there can be mitigating circumstances that can effect outcome and punishment.


I know, that's why I said "generally". If you break the speed limit by 20 mph because your wife's bleeding to death and you need to get her to the hospital I'm sure they'll cut you some slack. If you don't pay your taxes because you need more money I doubt they'd be very sympathetic. BTW if I received all my income under the table and never paid taxes on it would that be considered illegal? So if they'd put me in jail for it. . .

[Hot Lips]

If you believe the US government and the people who run it care about you and your well-being...all I have to say is...enjoy the bliss.

If living here were that bad, illegal immigration wouldn't be such a problem. I put more faith in our American citizens than illegals. If they had all the answers they would have fixed the ills of their own country rather than illegally entering ours.



To allow illegal immigration to go on at the scale that it has and is, and then to focus on the illegals themselves as the profiteers and criminal element - is just an attempt to shift the blame off of the American elite (politic ans/big business) and hide their responsibility.

I don't think anyone is saying the businesses that hired them shouldn't be held accountable for their part in this. But if you accept a stolen DVD player from a thief, you too are a thief. Both are guilty. But even so, working illegally with a citizen doesn't and shouldn't make you a citizen.



But what is real, is taking a hammer and a nail everyday, and feeding your family and buying the little bastard some new shoes, a girl's quincenera, etc.

What's also real is that legal workers have been displaced in some cases because they operate within the bounds of the labor and employment laws of our country. They too have families to feed. Breaking the law does not a better man make, no matter how hard you try to spin that argument.




I'm very apprehensive about deportation, because I think it would change the landscape of America for the worse. These are good people.


They are people who are willing to undermine the community to get ahead. Our society needs less people like that. Not more. Embrace the truly good people who are struggling through the proper process instead.



What Ezekiel said is true. Illegals work. It's just a matter of time before they are incorporated as citizens in this country.

Legal, unemployed citizens deserve first crack at all of their jobs even if some of them get to stay. And they they do stay, should move forward in the workforce with criminal records.

But, a criminal probably doesn't really mind having a criminal record and might just lie about it anyway. They've been lying thus far. What's one, a dozen, or a hundred more lies for personal gain?

That's the lesson you propose to teach and one I think is far more detrimental to our nations future.

[Miles.]

You make good points, Hot Lips.

Like I said, it's an emotional issue, for me. Trying to balance that with an intellectual analysis is difficult.


I'm glad we can remain civil. :)

[Hot Lips]

Say "Uncle". Saaaaaaaaaaaaay it!

[Miles.]

LOL.

I believe I did.

[Indianer]

What a joke read this lol.

Published: 01.16.2008

A delegation of nine state legislators from Sonora was in Tucson on Tuesday to say Arizona's new employer sanctions law will have a devastating effect on the Mexican state.

At a news conference, the legislators said Sonora - Arizona's southern neighbor, made up of mostly small towns - cannot handle the demand for housing, jobs and schools it will face as illegal Mexican workers here return to their hometowns without jobs or money.

The law, which took effect Jan.1, punishes employers who knowingly hire individuals who don't have valid legal documents to work in the United States. Penalties include suspension or loss of a business license.
Its intent is to eliminate or curtail the top draw for immigrants to this country - jobs.

The Mexican delegation, members of Sonora's 58th Legislature, belong to the National Action Party (PAN), the party of Mexico's president, Felipe Calderón.
They spoke at the offices of Project PPEP, a nonprofit that provides job retraining for farmworkers and other programs.

The lawmakers were to travel to Phoenix for a Wednesday breakfast meeting with Hispanic legislators.

They want to tell them how the law will affect Mexican families on both sides of the border.

"How can they pass a law like this?" asked Mexican Rep. Leticia Amparano Gamez, who represents Nogales.

"There is not one person living in Sonora who does not have a friend or relative working in Arizona," she said in Spanish.

"Mexico is not prepared for this, for the tremendous problems" it will face as more and more Mexicans working in Arizona and sending money to their families return to hometowns in Sonora without jobs, she said.

"We are one family, socially and economically," she said of the people of Sonora and Arizona.

Amparano said the Mexican legislators are already asking the federal government of Mexico for help for Sonora.

Rep. Florencio Diaz Armenta, coordinator of the delegation, represents San Luis, south of Yuma, one of Arizona's agricultural hubs, which employs some 28,000 legal Mexican workers.

"What do we do with the repatriated?" he asked. "As Mexicans, we are worried. They are Mexicans but they are also people - fathers and mothers and young people with jobs" who won't have work in Sonora."

He said the Arizona law will lead to "disintegration of the family," as one "legal" Mexican parent remains in Arizona and the other returns to Mexico.

Rep. Francisco Garcia Gámez, a legislator from Cananea and that city's former mayor, said the lack of mining jobs there has driven many Mexicans to Arizona to find work. He said they depend on jobs in Arizona to feed their families on both sides of the border.

Gov. Janet Napolitano, in her State of the State speech Monday, said the new law needs some modifications, including a better definition of what constitutes a complaint.

Barrett Marson, director of communications for the Arizona House of Representatives, said Speaker Jim Weiers, R-Phoenix, "has some concerns about how the law will be administered and applied."

He said the speaker sought testimony from the business community last fall "to get ideas about how to make following the law easier. In the end, that's what he wants - compliance, but make it as easy as possible to do."

Marson said Weiers is "waiting for the governor to come out with her idea of what she wants to do" before he makes his own recommendations.

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/altss/printstory/border/74193



Though ****. Maybe it's just time for the Mexicans to grow a pair and fix their own damn country, instead of ruining my fine state! If they starve, it's just more incentive for them to do something!

[Shadowstorm]

Immigration debate is the most difficult subject to talk about, because it's emotional issue and while people want border security, wall and mass deportation and others want amnesty or a guest worker program with no common middle ground.

[Cralis]

Your speeding down the road, is more for self interest. A illegal worker violating the law, may not even be self interested, but concerns for the well being of his family.
So who is the greater law breaker?

Hollis,
I'm coming in a little late on this conversation and wasn't intending to comment until I saw this.

Speeding is a traffic violation and IS NOT CRIMINAL.
Illegally crossing the border IS A CRIMINAL VIOLATION.

Your comparing apples to oranges. You might as well compare libel to illegal immigration, or letting your tree drop leaves on your neighbors lawn to illegal immigration.

Lets get a real comparison. For example, stealing food to eat. Maybe mugging someone so you can have rent money so your family stays dry this month. Or how about stealing legal identification and social security numbers so you can get bank accounts and loans in someone else's name so you can hide yourself and work since your not a legal?

Yeah the last was a setup because MANY of the illegal aliens do that. In fact, we had a raid last year arresting a little over 100 illegal aliens here in Oregon, around 75-80% of them were using stolen social security numbers.

So my question Hollis, when looking at it correctly and comparing criminal activity to criminal activity, is it any different looking to you?

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

what the hell ever happened to guest workers...?

im all for A) a wall

B) documentation (this is the BIG issue because right now you have millions crossing over a border, unchecked without knowledge of where they are from, their previous work and or criminal background...when in fact they almost have different rights than you, i mean if i get pulled over without a license i get a ticket, illegal gets pulled over says my name is hector gomez...how the hell do you know he is or isnt hector gomez or anything else about him?)

C) something to do with current illegal residents, those that can prove they have been here for some substantial time period (say 5-10 years) should be given a path towards citizenship, those under this should either be deported or not allowed to get documentation to work & if you cannot prove this somehow then tough sh*t you were here illegally anyhow and you will have to go back and apply for citizenship or documentation

we MUST remember they are here for PERSONAL FINANCIAL GAIN! they are not here for any other reason! if you go to work in another country as a legal american citizen you must APPLY for permanent residency & for the most part it is extremely difficult!

D) automatic citizenship for those willing to serve in the military

E) rid ourselves of automatic citizenship for those born in the US (you ARE considered a citizen of your parents country, either they go through the process like everyone else or you do, or you will be entitled to absolutely NO citizen programs or benefits other than those provided by your employer)

and lets stop f**king tromping all over the people from all of the other 180-plus countries that would love to come live & work here

geography is not a good reason for americans to lose their sovereignty over OUR own nation! be you white, hispanic, black or asian, you should be angry that your forefathers risked their life and limb under much different circumstances to get here!

the numbers of my forefathers were limited when they first came here, yes LIMITED (so do not throw the "racism" card at me)! the US would only take so many per year! (im not abdicating such a process, just pointing out that the journey of a hispanic person across a river and desert should not hold such great precedence to overshadow YOUR forefathers journey to this country)

AND as easy as that illegal immigration is solved

why the hell are we acting like this is not our country? why do we act in such a way that the majority is demonized for wanting to protect both their sovereignty and security!

or the US gov't can always push for mexico allowing central americans to come work in mexico, i mean fair is fair :)

[Skutatos]

hmm, seems AZ found a solution to illegal immigration, now if all the other states enacted such laws we could get things sorted out and start working on a reasonable immigration policy with Mexico because then they would have a reason to comply.

[AZRON]

Hollis,

Speeding is a traffic violation and IS NOT CRIMINAL.
Illegally crossing the border IS A CRIMINAL VIOLATION.




Google the U.S. Code site :

Enter 8 in the Title heading.

Enter 1325 in the Section heading .

Hit search.............. and read what it says... you may be surprised.

[Hollis]

Breaking the law, is breaking the law. That means the same thing to most people.


Hollis,
I'm coming in a little late on this conversation and wasn't intending to comment until I saw this.




Yes you are coming in late and you missed stuff.

The above quote is what I was in reference too. As far as other illegal activities, lets Bifurcate the issue.

Issue is Illegal immagration, not other illegal acts than anyone else can do.

[Dasein]

Is political instability really something we want to see in Mexico? What are the chances that if the Mexican government collapses, the new government will be more in line with Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro, and is that something we want to risk?

How would the US react to thousands, even millions of Mexicans fleeing civil unrest?

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

ouch everyone passed up my post to argue if speeding is a criminal activity

[Tokamak]

Is political instability really something we want to see in Mexico? What are the chances that if the Mexican government collapses, the new government will be more in line with Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro, and is that something we want to risk?

How would the US react to thousands, even millions of Mexicans fleeing civil unrest?


At the moment I see things improving in Mexico, the economy is stable and growing, I don't see how the government will collapse. About having a government like Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro (God forbids) I don't think so. One of the reasons Lopez Obrador (the looser in the last elections) went from 20 points advantage over any other candidate to loose the elections is because the other candidates started to make comparisons with Hugo Chavez. I think and I really hope I am right, people in Mexico are starting to learn from years and years of false promises.

[phoebus]

Look, you can march them on a Trail of Tears if you want to.


I happen to think mass deportations are a bit messy, and well...Third Reich-ish.

That would be the case if the country under "attack" was actually shipping those poeple in, which is not the case. Nobody has the right to cross the border uninvited, the consequences should be equally applied with no exception.

[Hot Lips]

I love it when you're right. ;)

Although "all costs" mean different things to different people.


Breaking the law, is breaking the law. That means the same thing to most people.
==============================================================


Yes you are coming in late and you missed stuff.

The above quote is what I was in reference too. As far as other illegal activities, lets Bifurcate the issue.

Issue is Illegal immagration, not other illegal acts than anyone else can do.

My statement is correct. They are both guilty of committing an illegal act. No dancing around that. I agree that while the verdict doesn't change (guilty) the punishment adapts to the crime. You speed, you get a warning, a fine, or maybe even jail time. You cross the border illegally, you get sent packing.

Illegal immigration does include other illegal acts because they are fugitives of the law and nearly every act from that point forward is illegal from lying on a job application, lying on a loan applications, lying on drivers licence records, lying on bank account records, lying on housing records, lying on school records, possible identity theft, taking medical assistance that is meant for our citizens, possible income tax evasion, etc.

Their only crime wasn't simply walking over a piece of earth that marks a border or not filling out forms x, y, and z immigration papers, it goes well beyond that in ways that impact us all including those honest folks waiting to get in legally.

[Hollis]

I wish that person did not repost that. A lot of people will say , Illegal is Illegal, end of discussion........ we already went through all of that. No reason to rehash everything again.


Let bifurcate the ISSUE............. Just because a person is a Illegal immigrant, does not say they break every and any other law?

I am not saying there are not some that are nothing more that criminals who need to be locked up for a long time. The majority are probably just as law abiding as everyone else. Some are victims without a voice, because they don't want attention draw to them. So they are abused by "contractors", thieves, land lords, employers etc.

[Hot Lips]

Just because a person is a Illegal immigrant, does not say they break every and any other law?

Unless they turn around and walk right back over the border without doing a thing while they are here odds are they are breaking other laws.


I am not saying there are not some that are nothing more that criminals who need to be locked up for a long time. The majority are probably just as law abiding as everyone else. Some are victims without a voice, because they don't want attention draw to them. So they are abused by "contractors", thieves, land lords, employers etc.

They are not just as law abiding as everyone else, IMO, because they are not citizens of this country.

If they had a legitimate fear of returning to their homeland, needed protection, and were honest, they could have turned themselves in upon arrival, made their claim and our country would do everything in it's power to protect them. Odds are, they don't have a legitimate claim and would be deported. They know this. So they keep up their lies for personal gain.

Hardly a victim in my eyes, but rather a willing participant of undermining the system we have put in place for the sake of our citizens.

Criminals that elude incarceration might have similar experiences. They may go on to lead "law abiding" lives for years and take crap jobs, for crap wages, and live in **** holes with dishonest employers and landlords because they lack the ability to fill out paperwork that won't send up red flags which will get them in trouble for their original crime. Doesn't erase the fact that they are a fugitive of the law.

The employers, landlords, etc of illegal immigrants are guilty of their own crimes. It does not erase the illegal immigrants crimes.

Far too much sugar coating going on. We have enough problems in our country without embracing dishonest immigrants which will force us to ultimately turn away the honest ones.

I don't consider a fugitive of the law who follows traffic laws, works hard on an inconspicuous low paying job, etc to avoid getting caught "law abiding".

[FelixA9]

I wish that person did not repost that. A lot of people will say , Illegal is Illegal, end of discussion........ we already went through all of that. No reason to rehash everything again.


Let bifurcate the ISSUE............. Just because a person is a Illegal immigrant, does not say they break every and any other law?

No it doesn't automatically deal them a deck of broken laws but they do accumulate them. Do they pay taxes? Do they have a SSN? If so how'd they get it? Not paying taxes and/or forging a SSN are probably enough to get you in hot water right there.

[Hollis]

Hot lips, I think what are bantering over are legal definitions. Not necessarily, Illegal Aliens should not be dealt with.

Such as you view of what a fugitive is Vs the legal definition:

fugitive from justice n. a person convicted or accused of a crime who hides from law enforcement in the state or flees across state lines to avoid arrest or punishment. Under Article IV, Section 2, Governors are required to "deliver up" and return any fugitive from justice to the state where they allegedly committed the crime, a process called extradition.

As I mentioned previous, I think Illegal aliens need to be held accountable. Also I think the amnesty that was done during the Reagan administration was a mistake.

[Hollis]

No it doesn't automatically deal them a deck of broken laws but they do accumulate them. Do they pay taxes? Do they have a SSN? If so how'd they get it? Not paying taxes and/or forging a SSN are probably enough to get you in hot water right there.


You dealing with probabilities and hypotheticals. What if they had a elephant as a pet, or ???

And not all Illegals are from Mexico. Some are from countries like Canada, who are well educated and are employed in high paying professional jobs.

Many employers deduct for taxes etc, regardless.

The issue is simple, they are illegal aliens, meaning they are in this country illegally. It is not what if, what ever etc. If they violate other laws they should be held accountable for those too. We could chase the what if "rabbit trail" from here to infinity and accomplish nothing.

[FelixA9]

You dealing with probabilities and hypotheticals. What if they had a elephant as a pet, or ???

And not all Illegals are from Mexico. Some are from countries like Canada, who are well educated and are employed in high paying professional jobs.

Many employers deduct for taxes etc, regardless.

The issue is simple, they are illegal aliens, meaning they are in this country illegally. It is not what if, what ever etc. If they violate other laws they should be held accountable for those too.


That's all I'm saying. Hold them accountable for ALL the laws they break. And I never said they were all Mexicans.

[Tokamak]

Something that Ordie once mentioned and that surprised me was that 40% of all illegals were people who overstayed their visas.

[Hot Lips]

I hardly consider it banter and I don't think it incorrect to say they are fugitives of the law.


a person convicted or accused of a crime who hides from law enforcement in the state or flees across state lines to avoid arrest or punishment

I think on many points you and I are in complete agreement.

I'm saying (perhaps not clearly) they are here illegally deport them via the system already in place to address this. Perhaps with some exceptions and not without repercussions. Make the system more effective (not less). If they want to come back, let them do it the right way and move the folks that have already gone about the right way first crack.

"Too hard" to enforce shouldn't be the issue. The world would be a much different place if national defense, law enforcement, and law makers back pedaled every time upholding the law got hard.

It's not in our interest to investigate and pursue conviction and then force our tax payers to support them in prison for all the laws they break in order to keep making money here without getting caught, but that doesn't mean other crimes don't count... that is why in many cases we simply deport illegal immigrants.

I don't' think that should change.

If I'm arguing anything, I suppose it's against the sugar coating that is meant to avoid calling a criminal a criminal.

I guess I take exception when reading or hearing comments that either outright or imply that American's love their families less because they aren't willing to break the law to get a job, a bank loan, etc. That American's don't work as hard because they aren't willing to circumvent our labor and employment laws to get a job over other applicants. I'm all for holding these underhanded employers accountable, but in no way believe it eliminates responsiblity of the illegal immigrant or that because they managed to circumvent the process and laws of our country that they should be more entitled to citizenship than the people who are honestly struggling through the legal process to do so.

[Miles.]

Hot Lips just closed this thread.


The rest is sawdust.

[Shadowstorm]

I see this debate is going nowhere, like I seen with past debate with this subject on this forum. That's what I said earlier, this is the most difficult issue to talk about, because people right in wrong don't have a middle ground. But at least this was gentle debate compared to the other immigration debates on this forum which violent flame wars and chaos.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

what the hell ever happened to guest workers...?

im all for A) a wall

B) documentation (this is the BIG issue because right now you have millions crossing over a border, unchecked without knowledge of where they are from, their previous work and or criminal background...when in fact they almost have different rights than you, i mean if i get pulled over without a license i get a ticket, illegal gets pulled over says my name is hector gomez...how the hell do you know he is or isnt hector gomez or anything else about him?)

C) something to do with current illegal residents, those that can prove they have been here for some substantial time period (say 5-10 years) should be given a path towards citizenship, those under this should either be deported or not allowed to get documentation to work & if you cannot prove this somehow then tough sh*t you were here illegally anyhow and you will have to go back and apply for citizenship or documentation

we MUST remember they are here for PERSONAL FINANCIAL GAIN! they are not here for any other reason! if you go to work in another country as a legal american citizen you must APPLY for permanent residency & for the most part it is extremely difficult!

D) automatic citizenship for those willing to serve in the military

E) rid ourselves of automatic citizenship for those born in the US (you ARE considered a citizen of your parents country, either they go through the process like everyone else or you do, or you will be entitled to absolutely NO citizen programs or benefits other than those provided by your employer)

and lets stop f**king tromping all over the people from all of the other 180-plus countries that would love to come live & work here

geography is not a good reason for americans to lose their sovereignty over OUR own nation! be you white, hispanic, black or asian, you should be angry that your forefathers risked their life and limb under much different circumstances to get here!

the numbers of my forefathers were limited when they first came here, yes LIMITED (so do not throw the "racism" card at me)! the US would only take so many per year! (im not abdicating such a process, just pointing out that the journey of a hispanic person across a river and desert should not hold such great precedence to overshadow YOUR forefathers journey to this country)

AND as easy as that illegal immigration is solved

why the hell are we acting like this is not our country? why do we act in such a way that the majority is demonized for wanting to protect both their sovereignty and security!

or the US gov't can always push for mexico allowing central americans to come work in mexico, i mean fair is fair :)

guess my system doesnt work :(

[FelixA9]

I see this debate is going nowhere, like I seen with past debate with this subject on this forum. That's what I said earlier, this is the most difficult issue to talk about, because people right in wrong don't have a middle ground. But at least this was gentle debate compared to the other immigration debates on this forum which violent flame wars and chaos.


Just out of curiosity where would you say the middle ground is between breaking a law and not breaking a law? Personally I think that deportation is a compromise as many of the illegals are probably guilty of fraud at the least which could land them in prison.

[Tokamak]

Just out of curiosity where would you say the middle ground is between breaking a law and not breaking a law? Personally I think that deportation is a compromise as many of the illegals are probably guilty of fraud at the least which could land them in prison.
Deportation of all illegal immigrants is not real option, it’s too expensive.

[Ordie]

Deportation of all illegal immigrants is not real option, it’s too expensive.


Approximately $48 Billion
It would bankrupt the entire Dept. of Homeland Security's budget.

[Shadowstorm]

Say $96 billion.

[shocker1]

Approximately $48 Billion
It would bankrupt the entire Dept. of Homeland Security's budget.
In my view that is a good thing. We should do that anyway. Oh no is that a flagged statement?

Go after the employers and the whole issue will solve itself to a great extent. This issue is a supply-demand problem. Our own citizens are creating the demand. Those people we can easily go after. Rounding up what will be seen as poor, helpless people will never play out well. Even if the legal argument is righteous.

A proper migrant/guest worker program based on real economic needs and managed from quarter to quarter as such would solve a lot of the supply issue. The only thing that changes is the pay scale and worker protections. I am willing to pay a bit more for things if it makes a better country and creates more opportunity.

[Shadowstorm]

Well not only the price, but finding them is a different ballgame.

[Ordie]

In my view that is a good thing. We should do that anyway. Oh no is that a flagged statement?

Go after the employers and the whole issue will solve itself to a great extent. This issue is a supply-demand problem. Our own citizens are creating the demand. Those people we can easily go after. Rounding up what will be seen as poor, helpless people will never play out well. Even if the legal argument is righteous.

A proper migrant/guest worker program based on real economic needs and managed from quarter to quarter as such would solve a lot of the supply issue. The only thing that changes is the pay scale and worker protections. I am willing to pay a bit more for things if it makes a better country and creates more opportunity.

I agree with your proposal for immigration reform in allowing a guest worker program. However, we must not deplete our entire resouces on deportation alone at the expense of hunting AQ and preventing another 9/11 from happening. Which was the premise of creating the DHS in the first place.

[shocker1]

at the expense of hunting AQ and preventing another 9/11 from happening. Which was the premise of creating the DHS in the first place.
I doubt even 1/5 of the budget even helps that. It does buy cameras for watching Joe Citizen, microwave crowd control, APCs for every off beat town where most people own firearms, it pays for software to fish Americans private information, it pays the salaries of the additional Bureaucracy, it pays for DHS scholarships in "Security" and it seems to have consolidated huge power into one spot for the Executive. All of which scare the living **** out of me a hell of a lot more than OBL, AQ or the Iranians.

[Hot Lips]

"Too hard" "Too expensive" "Give In"

Imagine the world years from now if this becomes our nations motto.

It's only too hard and too expensive if you think you're going to try and do it all at one time. That's not going to happen. For the time being we're stuck with them. Lock down the borders. As you find them, ship them out and hammer their employers, bankers, landlords, etc for the expense, estimated unpaid income taxes, fines, etc. There may be cases where exceptions are made.

This isn't something that has to be done all at once, we just have to start down that path and stop turning a blind eye. Obviously the problem isn't going away on it's own.

If a business has to authorize overtime pay to fewer legal citizens to willingly working longer hours to get a job done. So be it.

If a business has to invest in technology (which could create jobs elsewhere in the country) to replace cheap laborers. So be it.

If homeowners have to pay more for their lawn and garden service rather then pay an illegal local to do it. So be it.

If we need to start cutting back on unneccessary or redundant governement spending to offset the cost (always room for improvement here). So be it.

If we need to start dipping into the state lottery and I win $50 million, but am told $10million will go towards illegal immigrant deportation.... hey here's another $20million... I don't need all that friggin money.

If it creates jobs in law enforcement. Great.

If it keeps money that is illegally gained and then sent out of the country to be spent in another economy, here and spent in our country. Yahoo.



What if we keep them? They are due fair wages if they aren't getting them already (expense), they'll have to apply for business licenses and insurance to run businesses they maybe operating illegally now... what if they can't afford it...... eligible for financial assistance (expense), they are eligible for unemployment compensation if displaced in the workforce (expense), they are eligible for medical assistance if they can't afford it on their still low and now fully taxed wages (expense), we collect full income tax (gain?), they are eligible for training/education assistance to remain competitive if they aren't already (expense), instead of putting 50-100 people on a plane and sending them home we have to process them all and get them officially on the books make sure all the businesses they deal with have updated records on them (expense)......

If it's going to cost us either way..... uphold the law and make it easier for the folks already waiting to get in country the right way, in.

[Ordie]

"If it's going to cost us either way..... uphold the law and make it easier for the folks already waiting to get in country the right way, in.

Agree

The truth is there's no new line to wait for to get in.

Ask any one in this website how hard it is to get a loved one into the country, even with professional skills and education.

The immigration laws and policies (like the US Tax Codes) are outdated and not reflective to the rapid changes and fluctuations of the US economy and international relations.

[Shadowstorm]

Just out of curiosity where would you say the middle ground is between breaking a law and not breaking a law? Personally I think that deportation is a compromise as many of the illegals are probably guilty of fraud at the least which could land them in prison.
Will the ones I want out of this country are the druggers, gang bangers, murderers, rapers, and others that are causing trouble. But if people that are here illegally, but working jobs or have a business that are legit and legal and ain't bothering anybody, I would just order them pay a fine and just leave them be, because half them been here over 20 years and even before 1986 amnesty reform, but fail to sign for unknown reasons. I do support a guest worker program and protecting the borders by hiring more border patrols and with advance electronic sensors and UAV's, but the wall to me is just waste of money.

[tyovan]

Ask any one in this website how hard it is to get a loved one into the country, even with professional skills and education.

My wife and I are going through this right now. She's an English speaking doctor practicing medicine here. Shes here legally on a temporary visa.

Filling out the forms to get her permanent residency was a HUGE pain in the ass - and the fee (about $1,400) was astronomical. And of course now we have to wait months and months until the government makes up its mind about whether to let her stay.

Now if her last name was Gonzalez and she wanted to swim the Rio Grande and work in the construction industry for $16 a day, there are people who would just want to hand her a green card. Its an utterly ridiculous situation.

[Shadowstorm]

I know, they need to fix that big time, because this is getting ridiculous.

[Ordie]

My wife and I are going through this right now. She's an English speaking doctor practicing medicine here. Shes here legally on a temporary visa.

Filling out the forms to get her permanent residency was a HUGE pain in the ass - and the fee (about $1,400) was astronomical. And of course now we have to wait months and months until the government makes up its mind about whether to let her stay.

Now if her last name was Gonzalez and she wanted to swim the Rio Grande and work in the construction industry for $16 a day, there are people who would just want to hand her a green card. Its an utterly ridiculous situation.

Yet a Cuban who arrives at the US Border from Mexico gets an automatic green card.

[Shadowstorm]

I'm hearing the Cubans are increasing doing that now and never knew about that until a few months ago.

[Ordie]

I'm hearing the Cubans are increasing doing that now and never knew about that until a few months ago.

The whole network of human smuggling (Coyotes) is organized from Miami. They organize the "gofast" boats from Cuba to Yucatan (132 miles). Once in Mexico the Cubans are transported through various coyotes with money wired from loved ones in Miami at each transfer. They also finance the local cops to look the other way. Once at Matamoros they show up in front of the Customs Agent and declare themselves as Cuban and the automatic greencard is in the mail.

However if a Cuban is caught on the sea voyage to the US, they are returned to Cuba. To stem this tide, the USCG may consider patrolling the Yucatan Straights with the Mexican Navy between Mexico and Cuba.

Given to be an election year, I highly doubt any canidate wants to piss off the Miami Cuban votes. More specifically McClain who once flew CAP during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Best option, normalize relations with Cuba and open the economy to deter Cuban migrants.

For Cuban baseball player its best to defect to a third country Bahamas or Mexico in order to get the free agency in Major League Baseball (More $$$$$)

[Shadowstorm]

Thanks Ordie. Because I never knew that.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

wet foot dry foot is because of the communist "regime" if we will

maybe we'll be able to apply it to venezuelans and bolivians soon :)

[Ordie]

wet foot dry foot is because of the communist "regime" if we will

maybe we'll be able to apply it to venezuelans and bolivians soon :)

Why not give the same priviliage to the Chinese and Vietnamese. They're both Communist.

The Communist agrument is outdated.

[Shadowstorm]

You got a point their. How come they let Cubans stay, but send back Chinese and Vietnamese and last time I checked their both communist countries.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Why not give the same priviliage to the Chinese and Vietnamese. They're both Communist.

The Communist agrument is outdated.

b/c theyre not 90 miles south of our country and the sole openly communist state in our general area

i was giving the reasoning not stating im for or against but we get a small number of immigrants from cuba compared to mexico/central america

[ed316]

You got a point their. How come they let Cubans stay, but send back Chinese and Vietnamese and last time I checked their both communist countries.


Because we have "freindly" relations with them. Also the Cuban ex-pat community in S. Florida are very vocal.

[LordTyphus]

This looks bad. It is not the US government responsibility to take care of the Mexican citizens, but to call them retarded and leeches I think not.


It's actually brilliant. One day the US will be Mexican enough.

[Tokamak]

It's actually brilliant. One day the US will be Mexican enough.

Sorry I don't see your point.

[Tokamak]

The whole network of human smuggling (Coyotes) is organized from Miami. They organize the "gofast" boats from Cuba to Yucatan (132 miles). Once in Mexico the Cubans are transported through various coyotes with money wired from loved ones in Miami at each transfer. They also finance the local cops to look the other way. Once at Matamoros they show up in front of the Customs Agent and declare themselves as Cuban and the automatic greencard is in the mail.

However if a Cuban is caught on the sea voyage to the US, they are returned to Cuba. To stem this tide, the USCG may consider patrolling the Yucatan Straights with the Mexican Navy between Mexico and Cuba.

Given to be an election year, I highly doubt any canidate wants to piss off the Miami Cuban votes. More specifically McClain who once flew CAP during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Best option, normalize relations with Cuba and open the economy to deter Cuban migrants.

For Cuban baseball player its best to defect to a third country Bahamas or Mexico in order to get the free agency in Major League Baseball (More $$$$$)

Why wouldn’t they get the green card if they arrive by boat?.

[Ordie]

Why wouldn’t they get the green card if they arrive by boat?.


It was an agreement between Cuba and the US.

If the Cuban migrant was caught between the US and Cuba in open seas, the Coast Guard will send them to Cuba or a third country. If they made it by land, then its a green card.

What no one figured out back then was that getting to the US via Mexico was less risky and the wet feet only applies between the US and Cuba. Not Mexico and Cuba.