.22 Calibre F88 Austeyr Training Rifle

[stevej]

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to put REQ in the title.

Hi, this is my first post on MilitaryPhotos!

I am looking for photos of the .22 Caliber F88 Austeyr Training Rifle made by ADI in Australia.

The only infomation on the rifle that I can find is a paragraph on the ADI website:

http://www.adi-limited.com.au/site.asp?page=148

ADI has developed a .22 calibre training rifle for use by the Australian Army. The weapon provides an economical training alternative, with very low ammunition cost, which can be used in environmentally sensitive training areas and indoor areas for special force training with reduced risk to trainees and instructors.



Thanks for your help.

[Chulo]

a .22 variant of a gun wouldn't be any different than the standard gun other than the barrel. So it would be very hard to see the difference between a .22 F88 and a 5.56mm F88 (AFAIK) so i dont see why u would want a pic of a .22 - it wouldnt look any different from other F88s

[BillySing]

a .22 variant of a gun wouldn't be any different than the standard gun other than the barrel. So it would be very hard to see the difference between a .22 F88 and a 5.56mm F88 (AFAIK) so i dont see why u would want a pic of a .22 - it wouldnt look any different from other F88s

Not quite.

The magazine well adapter is quite prominent along with the smaller magazine. Though unfortunately I don't have any pictures to illustrate.....

Nearest example I could give of the mag well conversion would be the Steyr Aug Para, converted to chamber 9mm Parabellum.

[velvet-cream]

Was the .22 variant ever used? I've never seen one before in the Army. For cheap training, WTSS is the way to go. Furthermore, I didn't notice any of them on display at the lithgow firearms museum either.

On a related matter, would a conversion from 5.56 to .22LR on a steyr require a new barrel. From what I remember, you can convert an ar15/m16 to .22LR calibre with a few bits and pieces, but still use the 5.56 barrel. (does anyone know??)

[Straker]

The .22 adaptors I have seen over here do use the same barrel as the standard weapons.

However, by all accounts it does suffer a small accuracy penalty. The main problem over any distance is that the rifling of the barrel doesn't stabilise the bullet as well apparently. The other rumour I was told was that the barrel is of a slightly bigger diameter but not enough to make it unsafe by any means.

I'm wondering why ADI didn't make converted magazines for .22 ammunition. Surely having to place magazines differently in the magazine well doesn't promote similarity of training with the normally issued weapons?

[velvet-cream]

The .22 adaptors I have seen over here do use the same barrel as the standard weapons.

However, by all accounts it does suffer a small accuracy penalty. The main problem over any distance is that the rifling of the barrel doesn't stabilise the bullet as well apparently. The other rumour I was told was that the barrel is of a slightly bigger diameter but not enough to make it unsafe by any means.

I'm wondering why ADI didn't make converted magazines for .22 ammunition. Surely having to place magazines differently in the magazine well doesn't promote similarity of training with the normally issued weapons?
They probably never converted magazines because the .22 rifle wasn't used much (if at all) - I've never seen any of them in service. When I shoot live ammo, it's always F1 ball (our equivalent to SS109). For cheap practice, we have a thing called WTSS. It's basically a nice airconditioned indoor range. Instead of shooting real ammo, the guns are converted to shoot (invisible) lasers. The guns action has a gas system that simulates a tiny bit of recoil.

It's not as much fun as shooting live ammo, but in my opinion it's a great training tool. After the shoot, they can give you feed back like how long you pulled and held the trigger( to see if you jerked the trigger), as well as tracking the movements of your rifle through out the shoot (so you can see how your breathing affects the aim, as well as seeing how you recover from recoil). The feedback is great for testing out different shooting position/styles/techniques without wasting ammo. In addition, you can run scenarios, do night shoots (with NVGs and IR lasers) etc. It's really just a sophisticated arcade game.

That's probably why we don't see much development of a .22 Austeyr - We have a much better training aid.

[BiZ]

Some basic info, nil pictures.

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armynews/editions/1083/topstories/story05.htm

I believe it was only ever used by cadet units.

[ArmyJonHall]

It was used by RMC Duntroon for a short period in the 90's. The current gym/basketball court is the old indoor range. There's an awesome photo of it in the RMC Museum with Staff Cadets wandering all over the back of the range trace behind the wooden backstop.

[kalboy]

I believe it was only ever used by cadet units.



i've seen RAAF Cadets using them at an ANZAC Parade in Burnie Tas. Prob ten years ago. I thought they must have been common as $h!t as they had them.

[WILDTHING!]

Were not RAAF Cadets there's no Royal its just AAFC, and the .22 Steyr named the F88T was orginally mage for Defence Force Cadets, but with all the political Bull going round. No one wants us to shoot, but we've still managed to hold on to Steyr training with the 5.56 Rounds which happens about once or twice a year for a few selected cadets per state.

[WILDTHING!]

the T at the end of F88T means training, and mage is a spelling mistake its made.

[StuRat]

Nice necro post.

[WILDTHING!]

What is that supposed to mean? The F88T is also issued out to Airfield Defence Guards, because even though I disagree, a .22 does the same job as a 5.56 in injurying a person which is what the Steyr's main purpose in the Defence Force is, the .22 does less damage to an Aircraft in case of accidental fire and bad aim ect. My cousin told me a couple of years back, that they were going to make all Steyrs .22 cal, thank God his wrong!

[Opening Batsman]

Haha, do ADGies routinely arc up their own aircraft because they are below average shots?

[martinexsquaddie]

nobody is going to arm a guard with a .22 thats just laughable.
even rock apes get 5.56mm

[WILDTHING!]

no ADGies dont have really bad aim its just one of those things that are there jst in case, and they do get isssued with them.

[gafkiwi]

These type of weapons won't have much of a place in military training anymore, if they ever did. Things like Limited Range Ammunition that only require the bolt to be replaced and are not able to fire standard ammunition if ammunition contamination occurs. (something you Aussies would know about.... "I understand and comply with the CDFs directive")
Its still lethal but only has a 300m safety template for those who understand what that is.

[trunk_munkey28]

These type of weapons won't have much of a place in military training anymore, if they ever did. Things like Limited Range Ammunition that only require the bolt to be replaced and are not able to fire standard ammunition if ammunition contamination occurs. (something you Aussies would know about.... "I understand and comply with the CDFs directive")
Its still lethal but only has a 300m safety template for those who understand what that is.

So is it just a reduced charge round or what?
The closest I can think of from the CF is CEASS, or Simunition, which isn't really the same.

[gafkiwi]

So is it just a reduced charge round or what?
The closest I can think of from the CF is CEASS, or Simunition, which isn't really the same.

Its similar, a type of sub cal rd, some of the companies that produce man marking ammunition (simmunition type) also make it, UTM I think make them and simm type stuff as well.

[MSR]

no ADGies dont have really bad aim its just one of those things that are there jst in case, and they do get isssued with them.
That is BS. Never ever seen one of those in our armoury. So back to cadets for you.


Haha, do ADGies routinely arc up their own aircraft because they are below average shots?
This coming from someone who has been in since breakfast is a bit rich.

[Opening Batsman]

This coming from someone who has been in since breakfast is a bit rich.

Oh come on, it was at least yesterday. Anyway, the point of my post was to give him ****, not your mob.

[BiZ]

a .22 does the same job as a 5.56 in injurying a person which is what the Steyr's main purpose in the Defence Force is

Go practise blousing your boots.

[MSR]

Oh come on, it was at least yesterday. Anyway, the point of my post was to give him ****, not your mob.
In was tongue in cheek mate :)
I couldn't give the proverbial over this bloke

[DaReFaItH]

What is that supposed to mean? The F88T is also issued out to Airfield Defence Guards, because even though I disagree, a .22 does the same job as a 5.56 in injurying a person which is what the Steyr's main purpose in the Defence Force is, the .22 does less damage to an Aircraft in case of accidental fire and bad aim ect. My cousin told me a couple of years back, that they were going to make all Steyrs .22 cal, thank God his wrong!

+1 on the BS... you need to filter whats in your head before you put your hands on the keyboard... with practice this will come --checks arcs--
if you are in the know or can get access... vol 1 of the F88 pam i believe covers the F88T. from memory there is a different barrel and bolt and mag recess adapter. images are contained within.
i know at some stage there was a concern over the lead dust build up from the .22 rounds from the F88t but if that was a consideration for any action or inaction i dont know.
many weapons have a sub cal or lower cal training equiv... the 66, the old charlie G (wheres a 9-2 when you need one?)

i dont think you would find and adgie who would accept being issued an F88t for any other reason than to cull a few rabbits on the airfield. perhaps at a BIG stretch perhaps an F88C in 9mm with frangible ammunition would alleviate concerns of wayward F1 dinging the duco on someones shiny flying thing. as far as im aware... thats what the MP5 are for... but im not an ADG so i dont know

thank your cousin for making you sound like an ill informed remtard infront of the interweb.
hope this info is of some assistance

[StuRat]

Do you have a shift key?

[DeltaWhisky58]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/HighlandSniper58/Emoticons/fail-stamp.png

[DaReFaItH]

not sure who you were asking that question about the shift key... but i have two on my keyboard and only really use one if you need a spare...

[Dspec]

DW Warning sign too late, palms.....bleeding...oh the horror.

http://i706.photobucket.com/albums/ww65/Dspec_photos/BLOODHANDS.jpg

[digrar]

Feel free to start using it, like everyone else.

[DaReFaItH]

cool, this is one of those really funny internet things that i dont understand

[Dspec]

Its all good dude, just having a laugh,

this thread is getting tedious 2 pages of bollocks and the poor bloke that started it hasn't even seen 1 poxy photo of a .22 F88

[DaReFaItH]

i just assumed someone else would take care of it

[StuRat]

Like capitalising your letters?

That's a bit Jack isn't it?

[DaReFaItH]

not if you only do it to 50% of them... thats called fair. doing it to 1/3 of them is about as jack as a big bag of short dropped FPF

[MSR]

not if you only do it to 50% of them... thats called fair. doing it to 1/3 of them is about as jack as a big bag of short dropped FPF

Life is unfair. Deal with it and use your caps lock.
BS about the MP5 too. It's there for cosmetic reasons only. Great rate of fire and warrie looking but not much use past 50m, so very limited use unfortunately.

[DaReFaItH]

just so i can be sure... someone is getting upset because either im using too many or not enough uppercase letters per post?
if someone could PM me and 'calibrate' my attitude that would be appreciated.

[MSR]

if someone could PM me and 'calibrate' my attitude that would be appreciated.

Keep that up and you will get Bore Sighted.
Use the caps lock where required.

[DaReFaItH]

So this is a grammatical and sentence structure issue? What was meant by my previous request was my own confusion as to why i was making people upset when what I was saying was, to me, not particularly provocative.
I also wasn't sure if the reason I was drawing heat was due, in some part, to my delightfully unfastidious yet creative choice of user name, with its spasmodic jumble of upper and lowercase.
I'll make the effort to begin my sentences with a CAPITAL letter from now on, thankyou MSR and StuRat for your patience and understanding.

Is that offer of a free Bore Sighting still on?

[MSR]

Sounds like you are zeroed mate.

[goose36]

What is that supposed to mean? The F88T is also issued out to Airfield Defence Guards, because even though I disagree, a .22 does the same job as a 5.56 in injurying a person which is what the Steyr's main purpose in the Defence Force is, the .22 does less damage to an Aircraft in case of accidental fire and bad aim ect. My cousin told me a couple of years back, that they were going to make all Steyrs .22 cal, thank God his wrong!


I believe what he is trying to say is that the AGDie's needed a low velocity weapon they could use around aircraft to limit damage if they needed to engage, thats why they got the MP-5. but they still cant shoot!

But gobbing of about ballistics and the role of the ADF is ****ing stupid, shut your lid mouth and keep it shut!

[DaReFaItH]

Sweet, thanks for that -- wonders off the mound--.

[StuRat]

Keep up your attitude and I'm sure Dig will be happy to comply.

[DaReFaItH]

Keep up your attitude and I'm sure Dig will be happy to comply.

If you're not busy, maybe you could? You'll find me at Holsworthy Barracks when i'm not deployed. While you're here maybe we can show you how those 81mm work... do you have them yet?

[Slouch]

If you're not busy, maybe you could? You'll find me at Holsworthy Barracks when i'm not deployed. While you're here maybe we can show you how those 81mm work... do you have them yet?

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3129/impliedfacepalm.jpg

[MSR]

Stu, you are a bit of a enforcer aren't you?
Let's get this back on track.
Regardless of the weapon system used, if a round hits an aircraft, it is U/S until a crazy amount of check are done. Rounds being thrown around airfields is bad news for everyone.

[digrar]

So this has probably gone as far as it's going to go. Noob tough fella, feel free to wind your neck in a bit, you're making a goose of yourself in front of the seppos.