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Tokamak
01-21-2008, 08:45 PM
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Global shares tumble on US fears
Global stock indexes, including the UK FTSE 100, have fallen their most since the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001 amid fears of a recession.

The FTSE 100 index tumbled 5.5% to 5,578.2, wiping £77bn ($149bn) off the value of its listed shares.
Indexes in Paris and Frankfurt slumped by about 7%, while markets in Asia, India and South America also dropped.
Investors questioned whether a recent plan to boost the US economy would be enough to avert a full-blown recession.
Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the head of the International Monetary Fund, said the global economic situation was "serious" and that all countries in the world were suffering in the wake of a slowdown in US growth.
Last week the US government announced a financial stimulus plan which would involve about $145bn in tax cuts to encourage spending.
US bond markets, which were closed for a public holiday on Monday, are to reopen on Tuesday and many analysts say they could see sharp falls after markets worldwide reacted negatively on Monday.
Francis Lun of Fulbright Securities in Hong Kong said the falls stemmed from disappointment that the US stimulus was "too little, too late" adding that investors felt "it wouldn't help the economy recover".
'Panic mode'
The worry is that tax breaks and spending measures will not be enough to boost consumer spending in the US, because deeper economic problems remain.


In particular, the slowing housing market and problems in the sub-prime sector - which lends to those with limited or no credit histories - has contributed to a slowdown.
"We're falling back into the crisis of confidence in the financial sector," said Hugues Rialan, of Robeco France.
"The banks have been reassuring the market over their exposure to US mortgage-related investments, but now we realise there is nothing reassuring about it," he said.
Finance firms were among the main fallers, with Dutch ING Group, Germany's Allianz and Swiss Re all falling about 10%, while Royal Bank of Scotland shed 8%.

FTSE100 - WORST DAYS
20/10/87 down 12.2%
19/10/87 down 10.8%
26/10/87 down 6.2%
11/09/01 down 5.7%
22/10/87 down 5.7%


Many shoppers are struggling under higher mortgage repayment costs, prompting default rates to surge, especially among sub-prime borrowers.
This has prompted banks to tighten their lending policies after losing huge amounts of investments linked to the US housing and mortgage markets.
The state of the US economy is crucial for many of Europe's and Asia's biggest companies because it is one of their biggest export markets.


FTSE100 - BEST DAYS
21/10/87 up 7.9%
13/03/03 up 6.1%
10/04/92 up 5.6%
15/10/02 up 5.1%
25/07/02 up 5.0%


Any slowdown in demand is likely to hurt corporate profit growth and push share prices even lower, analysts have warned.
But some analysts took comfort from the prospect of falling US interest rates.
"If interest rates are cut to the extent we and others expect, the likelihood is that today's share prices will look like silly values in 12 months' time, if not before," said Mike Lenhoff at Brewin Dolphin Securities.
Global trend
Markets in China, India, South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan and the Philippines all fell.
In Mumbai, the main Sensex index fell 1,408 points, or 7.4%, adding to an 8% fall last week. Hong Kong's Hang Seng slumped 1,383.0 points, or 5.5%, to close at 23,818.9. Tokyo's main Nikkei 225 index fell 3.9%.

We're in the danger zone now
Bob Parker, Credit Suisse Asset Management


Australia's benchmark ASX 200 index closed down 2.9%, or 166.9, points at 5,580.4, which is its lowest level for a year.
It was also the 11th consecutive negative day for the index, the longest losing streak in more than 25 years.
"People are certainly nervous about a potential recession in the US spilling over to the rest of the world," said David Cohen at Action Economics. So far this year, Japan's Nikkei has dropped 13%, the Hang Seng is down more than 14% and China's main Shanghai index has slipped almost 7%.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/business/7199552.stm

Published: 2008/01/22 00:09:26 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

Tokamak
01-21-2008, 09:43 PM
£77bn lost, that's quite a lot!.

Lt-Col A. Tack
01-21-2008, 09:44 PM
So much for the world decoupling from the US economy.

Dling
01-21-2008, 09:45 PM
im not exactly a money market kinda guy:| whats this "recession"?

Tokamak
01-21-2008, 09:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession

That the US economy will not grow or could decline.

T3ngu
01-21-2008, 09:53 PM
So much for the world decoupling from the US economy.

We Australians have been watching this for a few months now. Just just in the last few weeks we have copped an absolute bollocking.

The problem here seemed to be that a number of the "lending companies" borrowed from the US to enable themselves to operate. Thus when the US started to go down, so did we.

We (i.e. me) have lost a little but am about to lose a bit more i think.

Dling
01-21-2008, 09:54 PM
so its essentially the dollar falling and our money ending up to be worthless?

Tokamak
01-21-2008, 09:58 PM
so its essentially the dollar falling and our money ending up to be worthless?

I doubt the dollar will end up being worthless, but considering that a lot of economies are strongly linked with the US if your economy doesn't grow you end up slowing down many others.

Lt-Col A. Tack
01-21-2008, 10:03 PM
We Australians have been watching this for a few months now. Just just in the last few weeks we have copped an absolute bollocking.

The problem here seemed to be that a number of the "lending companies" borrowed from the US to enable themselves to operate. Thus when the US started to go down, so did we.

We have lost a little but am about to lose a bit more i think.

We are the world's great consumers.

I have the impression that many in the global capital markets are worried we in the US will stop spending money. Which may cause individuals and businesses to have trouble servicing debt and acquiring new credit. As the article suggests, losses by mortgage companies are playing a major role.

I'm really not to shocked by the news; so my 401k dropped in value and I'll have to keep working longer, no big deal.

Tokamak
01-21-2008, 10:06 PM
Consumption by Americans drives a lot of economic activity around the world. We are the world's great consumers.

I have the impression that many in the global capital markets are worried we in the US will stop spending money. Which may cause individuals and businesses to have trouble servicing debt and acquiring new credit. As the article suggests, losses by mortgage companies is playing a major role.

I'm really not to shocked by the news; so my 401k dropped in value and I'll have to keep working longer, no big deal.

Tell me about it, Nothern Rock here has made a lot of noise. There is not a single week we don't hear something about how much is costing the tax payers.

Lt-Col A. Tack
01-21-2008, 10:11 PM
Tell me about it, Nothern Rock here has made a lot of noise. There is not a single week we don't hear something about how much is costing the tax payers.

How is the UK doing? I've heard personal debt is quite high (relative to Europe)

I hate to say it, but trouble in the mortgage industry here in the US wasn't brought on by the government; this was just a lot of people who didn't understand that adjustable rate mortgages requiring no down payment and no payment on the principal are a bad thing.

Interest only mortgages!! :bash:

Tokamak
01-21-2008, 10:21 PM
How is the UK doing? I've heard personal debt is quite high (relative to Europe)

I hate to say it, but trouble in the mortgage industry here in the US wasn't brought on by the government; this was just a lot of people who didn't understand that adjustable rate mortgages requiring no down payment and no payment on the principal are a bad thing.

Interest only mortgages!! :bash:

Personal debt is quite bad. It will bring us down if the government doesn't do something. House prices keep increasing and people keep buying.

JJC
01-21-2008, 10:28 PM
How is the UK doing? I've heard personal debt is quite high (relative to Europe)

I hate to say it, but trouble in the mortgage industry here in the US wasn't brought on by the government; this was just a lot of people who didn't understand that adjustable rate mortgages requiring no down payment and no payment on the principal are a bad thing.

Interest only mortgages!! :bash:

That's why I think gov stepping in is not a bad idea when people can't think. I know so many people who jumped into buying condos and homes, and are now saying I can't afford it. A lot of people just scare me with their "idiot" financial decisions.

Calanen
01-21-2008, 11:08 PM
so its essentially the dollar falling and our money ending up to be worthless?

Recession in official economic speak means two quarters of negative economic growth. That means that the size of the US economy must have shrunk twice in a row to be officially in recession.

I recall a wizard of Id cartoon where Sir Rodney asks the King what's the definition of a recession. The King says 'That's when you get fired.' and Sir Rodney says 'And a depression?' the King replies 'Thats when I get fired.'

More generally among the populace, recessions are referred to just as economic slowdowns. Layoffs occur, business does not have as much money coming in, people cant pay their mortgages, people go broke.

I remember the last recession, bitterly, 92', 93 - could not get a job, it was terrible. I hope this does not happen again.

Lt-Col A. Tack
01-22-2008, 12:10 AM
That's why I think gov stepping in is not a bad idea when people can't think. I know so many people who jumped into buying condos and homes, and are now saying I can't afford it. A lot of people just scare me with their "idiot" financial decisions.

I think Sen. Schumer was proposing something along those lines.

Schumer Mortgage Plan (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/business/11schumer.html)

My problem with this is, if the government steps in, it means that there are no real consequences when a person signs a bad mortgage.

T3ngu
01-22-2008, 12:13 AM
That's why I think gov stepping in is not a bad idea when people can't think. I know so many people who jumped into buying condos and homes, and are now saying I can't afford it. A lot of people just scare me with their "idiot" financial decisions.

We have a scheme here called the first home owners grant. If you are buying a house and havent had one before you get somewhere in the order of $7k plus to help you out. I think it has gone up since I bought my first in 2000.

Essentially the banks count this as "savings" and give out loans to people based on their history of "saving".

Later down the line, *pow*, cant pay, bye bye, bank sells house and makes heaps on the capital growth.

As JJC said, if you take a loan, you should make sure you can pay it back, just cause the bank thinks you should live on baked beans while paying the loan back doesnt mean you will want to.

JJC
01-22-2008, 12:24 AM
I think Sen. Schumer was proposing something along those lines.

Schumer Mortgage Plan (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/business/11schumer.html)

My problem with this is, if the government steps in, it means that there are no real consequences when a person signs a bad mortgage.

I meant something like making it harder for air heads getting a mortgage. They should have raised the interest when the real estate market boomed. But I guess it's always hard to predict when sh*t will hit the fan.

BMF_EOD
01-22-2008, 12:25 AM
I hope the government does not step in. I want my taxes to build roads and pay for schools not bail people out of debt.

I didn't buy a house in Southern California because I couldn't afford it using a traditional 30 year fixed. I could have bought using "creative financing" adjustable, balloon etc... I didn't because it's not a wise choice- and sucked up renting a smaller crappy place-for a few YEARS. Pretty happy I did this now- but I surely don't want to pay higher taxes to help those who made poor decisions.

The US housing market has exploded in the last 8 years. I think this is exactly what we need to provide a slowdown to the rediculous growth to both the housing market and mortage industry.

Ritual
01-22-2008, 01:07 AM
Exactly BMF, people not understanding or gambling with these large quantities of money in homes/etc are bound to fall short eventually. :-(

Mu-Meson
01-22-2008, 01:21 AM
In comparison, it seems like us Canadians got off light in terms of stock market nosedive. Still, I shan't be looking at my investments before taking several strong drinks.

Mark Sman
01-22-2008, 02:44 AM
Some overseas financial institutions have direct exposure in the US mortgage mayhem as well.

Greedy morons drove price past value. The unreal estate industry tried to hold the line on inflated prices so long that what should have been a market correction turned into a price crash.

Next comes the collapse of the unscrupulous loan agencies that gave money to people who couldn't afford it, to buy property that wasn't worth it.

This has all happened before in the US (80s) and elsewhere (Japan 90s).

Let the market correct itself, it always does.

It also has a tendency to expose other companies that play BS with their balance sheets when they can no longer fake their debt with expanding revenues.

FutureGrunt
01-22-2008, 02:53 AM
I'm sorry, I really don't grasp the concept of this "bail-out", but by government bailing out consumers, doesn't the money really go to banks and lending institutions?

Murph
01-22-2008, 01:46 PM
Begin Rant.

The people who need to be worried about this recession are the same idiots that caused it. However, if they're stupid enough to have caused it, they're probably stupid enough not to do anything now about it.

I'm SOOooooOoo glad that I'll have to take it because of other retards.

End Rant.