UK tanks in A-stan

[AmandlaEwetu]

can anybody tell me why the British Army is not using the Challenger 1 or 2 in Afghanistan when the Danes,Canadians are,is it doctrine or an unwillingness to admit how bad it is(a bit like not arming our police in certain areas,but thats a differnt issue)Anybody enlighten me

[Ubar]

or an unwillingness to admit how bad it is


I think it can safely be said this is not the reason...

[rgjbloke]

If it were required operationally in their area of responsibility, I'm sure tanks would be used

[The Dane]

UK has Warriors(30mm MK) and Javelin missiles which is enough in A-stan.
Denmark does'nt have a decent IFV yet(CV9035 op.ready in 2010) and no modern missiles either.
That's why the Danish Leopard are in Helmand-Infantry support.

Can't talk for the Canucks..

[Ironsight06]

Can't talk for the Canucks..
An attempt by the Canadian Army to make the government buy new tanks...



p-)

[Hypno85]

or an unwillingness to admit how bad it is

WAH!! Whats so wrong with Challenger 2 may i ask?

[CMNot]

unwillingness to admit how bad it is

There is many broken thinks within the armed forces, Chally 2 being one that actually isn't. It's record speaks for itself.


WAH!!

^^

[Ironsight06]

There is many broken thinks within the armed forces, Chally 2 being one that actually isn't. It's record speaks for itself.
I think by "it", he refers to the situation in Afghanistan.

[oldsoak]

can anybody tell me why the British Army is not using the Challenger 1 or 2 in Afghanistan when the Danes,Canadians are,is it doctrine or an unwillingness to admit how bad it is(a bit like not arming our police in certain areas,but thats a differnt issue)Anybody enlighten me

- nothing wrong with the Chally2 - but its a question of need vs the support logistics involved in getting Chally out there and keeping it running. If you have weapons that can cover your needs, why bring another item into the stretched logistics chain ?

[NavyTimes]

Denmark does'nt have a decent IFV yet(CV9035 op.ready in 2010) and no modern missiles either.
That's why the Danish Leopard are in Helmand-Infantry support.


Seems like a decent explanation, when the enemy haven't got tanks a IFV should do the trick. (Though a 120mm wont hurt anyone.) :p

[The Dane]

A CV9035 with Ahead ammunition(airburst) will do the job in Afghanistan(InfSup) much better than a Leo2 armed only with HEAT and Sabot-rounds...:roll:

[Pete031]

A CV9035 with Ahead ammunition(airburst) will do the job in Afghanistan(InfSup) much better than a Leo2 armed only with HEAT and Sabot-rounds...:roll:

Quite the statement.... Care to explain?

[oldsoak]

Quite the statement.... Care to explain?

- HEAT and APFSDS are anti tank rounds and essentially dumb. They are not much use against enemy lying in dead ground. An airburst munition is much better in those circumstances. Also, given the lack of Talib tanks, Sabot's not useful. HEAT, while it does have some explosive effect would be less useful than straight out HE and cannister rounds.

[GunnerBhoy]

I dont the the terrain favours tanks either, as the Russians discovered in the 80's.

[Pete031]

Well, Launching a 105 or 120mm at a grape hut, or wall, making an instant breach is very useful. Cheaper then TOW missles.
HESH rounds have been very effective for us. Complimenting a battle group of LAV 3's, with their 25mm's; Tanks have really helped the operations.

We all know that once you are in an attack or ambush, winning the firefight is crucial. Well one blast from a tank, at a static Taliban position, and 9 times out of 10, the firefight is won.

No disrespect to the Russians, I don't think we should base anything off old Warsaw Pact tank doctorine. If we keep employing tanks as we have been, they will continue to be a good thing to have.

I have worked with the Para's in Sangin, and let me tell you, there were a few times, where tanks would of helped us.

[oldsoak]

Well, Launching a 105 or 120mm at a grape hut, or wall, making an instant breach is very useful. Cheaper then TOW missles.
HESH rounds have been very effective for us. Complimenting a battle group of LAV 3's, with their 25mm's; Tanks have really helped the operations.

We all know that once you are in an attack or ambush, winning the firefight is crucial. Well one blast from a tank, at a static Taliban position, and 9 times out of 10, the firefight is won.

No disrespect to the Russians, I don't think we should base anything off old Warsaw Pact tank doctorine. If we keep employing tanks as we have been, they will continue to be a good thing to have.




I have worked with the Para's in Sangin, and let me tell you, there were a few times, where tanks would of helped us.

Thats because the 105 has HESH - a luvverly round which blows a ruddy great hole !
APFSDS puts a nice neat little hole and HEAT does a bit better, but not as good as HESH. I'm not sure about the availiability of HE for Leo 120mm, but if it was, it would be a winner, especially with a smart fuse. It would really f**k off the unruly neighbours.
Did the paras have Warrior or anything mounting a 30mm in Sangin OOI ?


- aha - there is a 120mm M830 HEAT-MP-T round availiable which is a muti purpose round - v useful indeed for Leos - dunno if the Danes have them though

[AmandlaEwetu]

i WAS refering to how bad it was in Afghanistan (as per my example)not the tank--why have i been given an infraction for flame bait from "royal",somebody please tell me...

[Dling]

- aha - there is a 120mm M830 HEAT-MP-T round availiable which is a muti purpose round - v useful indeed for Leos - dunno if the Danes have them though

http://www.youtube.com/v/Cgn1nhUEgo8

What about these? I'm sure using the main gun as a shotgun should be pretty effective to if the Canadians or Danes use them.

[Pete031]

Thats because the 105 has HESH - a luvverly round which blows a ruddy great hole !
APFSDS puts a nice neat little hole and HEAT does a bit better, but not as good as HESH. I'm not sure about the availiability of HE for Leo 120mm, but if it was, it would be a winner, especially with a smart fuse. It would really f**k off the unruly neighbours.
Did the paras have Warrior or anything mounting a 30mm in Sangin OOI ?


- aha - there is a 120mm M830 HEAT-MP-T round availiable which is a muti purpose round - v useful indeed for Leos - dunno if the Danes have them though

The biggest weapon while I was there was the 84mm. I'm sure they had Javelins around. But for the most part it was .50 and MK 19.

Then we can agree that there is a place for tanks in A-Stan?

[Royal]

i WAS refering to how bad it was in Afghanistan (as per my example)not the tank--why have i been given an infraction for flame bait from "royal",somebody please tell me...

Could it be for flaming?

If the situation in Helmand was bad enough no need tanks then even Gordon Brown wouldn't be able to refuse the GOCs request for them - he hasn't got the balls.

[The Dane]

The Danish tanks has the M1028 canister round and DM12A2 HEAT MP.
They also has a Rheinmetall PELE round but i don't know what it's called.

[sp2c]

i WAS refering to how bad it was in Afghanistan (as per my example)not the tank--why have i been given an infraction for flame bait from "royal",somebody please tell me...

so how bad is it in Afghanistan?

[AIRBORNEJOCK]

Well, Launching a 105 or 120mm at a grape hut, or wall, making an instant breach is very useful. Cheaper then TOW missles.
HESH rounds have been very effective for us. Complimenting a battle group of LAV 3's, with their 25mm's; Tanks have really helped the operations.

We all know that once you are in an attack or ambush, winning the firefight is crucial. Well one blast from a tank, at a static Taliban position, and 9 times out of 10, the firefight is won.

No disrespect to the Russians, I don't think we should base anything off old Warsaw Pact tank doctorine. If we keep employing tanks as we have been, they will continue to be a good thing to have at times.
as for not having them there probably to do with logistics i think the public know its pretty bad already so you wouldnt really be letting anything out the bag.

I have worked with the Para's in Sangin, and let me tell you, there were a few times, where tanks would of helped us.

were you out with us in 06?you guys did a good job and the boys have only got good things to say about you all.and your right driving a few chally 2 up the wadi in sangin and putting hesh all over the place would have been nice.
we ended up having a few schimitars up there with drive up ramparts for them to engage over the hasco and they proved to be a real asset.
the reasons probably logistical but i dont really see the drama as theyve got warrior,as90 and mlrs there.

[The Dane]

we ended up having a few schimitars up there with drive up ramparts for them to engage over the hasco and they proved to be a real asset.



Like this..
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/m8.jpg
Taken in FOB Sandford, Upper Geresk Valley.

This is from a Danish lead British-Danish offensive operation in Upper Geresk Valley, Jan. 2008.

"On the 5. of januar a British InfCoy(1) made a push north on the east side of Helmand river in Upper Geresk Valley.
A Danish InfPlt(2) with their M113/M2-.50.cal and Charlie G M3 where supporting the advance from a position close to the river on the westside. Further west the Leopard 2 Plt(3) supported the operation from the high grounds, providing intel and firesupport."


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/e1.jpg

"The British InfCoy quickly made contact with a larger Taliban force on the east side of the river. The Brits were attacked with small arms fire, RPG's and mortars.
The Danish InfPlt close to the river fired .50 cal and 84mm HE into Talibans positions."

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/e2.jpg
View from the Leo2 position during the operation

"The Danish positions were now attacked by Taliban forces on the west side of the river with RPG's and mortars.
This is when Taliban with 20-30 men tried to outflank the Danish InfPlt's position.
This were spotted through the Leos advanced thermal sighting system.
The attacking Taliban forces were taken out of action by 20 120mm rounds"

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/e3.jpg

"The whole operation was a succes and the were no fatalities on either the British or Danish side."

Translated from the Danish AOC's website.

[The Dane]

Found this on Rheinmetall's PELE rounds.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/wednesday/borngen.pdf

I've asked on a danish forum and found out that Denmark uses the DM33 PELE in Afghanistan alongside the canister and HEAT rounds.

[BOOTNECK_RM]

There is no requirement for the chally 2 in afghan. Its just not tacticaly sound. Terrain would be against it, and the chally 2 wouldnt be affective against the tactics the taliban use. If a compound neads taking out or breaching, we have ILAW, javelin, mortars, arty, and CAS. If its infantry support you need, the Vikings ATV(P) are doing a great job out there at the moment. Plus the alleyways and streets are too narrow for challenger to manouvere. For extra firepower we have the scimitars to call on. Yes it would be an asset at times. But for the limited support it could provide it wouldnt be cost effective for the logistics that would need to be in place.

[oldsoak]

Fair one - but are these ideal ? I'm thinking that the old 76mm L23A1 as was mounted on the Scorpion and firing HESH would be better and cheaper. Also, it would mean less tubes to carry around and therefore more ball. Admittedly some places are only reachable by wimiks and the like.

[Suicaine]

Fair one - but are these ideal ? I'm thinking that the old 76mm L23A1 as was mounted on the Scorpion and firing HESH would be better and cheaper. Also, it would mean less tubes to carry around and therefore more ball. Admittedly some places are only reachable by wimiks and the like.

absolutely, a scorpion would be a good asset but if i recall correctly the l23a1 was outlawed because of fumes ending up inside the tank? And a lack of requirement lead to no sucessor?

- Alex.

actually edit: wasn't there some issues with tank classication on the 76mm? or am i thinking of something completely different.

[oldsoak]

absolutely, a scorpion would be a good asset but if i recall correctly the l23a1 was outlawed because of fumes ending up inside the tank? And a lack of requirement lead to no sucessor?

- Alex.

actually edit: wasn't there some issues with tank classication on the 76mm? or am i thinking of something completely different.

- nah you're right - on both. 76mm was over some limit set by the CFE treaty, which allegedly put the Scorp in the same class as the Chally :roll: but we were also told that it was being withdrawn due to H&S problems with the fumes, believe it or not !

[LordTyphus]

The primary reason is economic. Equipments like the C2 will bleed the British army of money faster than Taliban fanatics would them of blood.

Secondary reason: the Afghan landscape is not adequate for tank usage.

Looks like the British have way more common sense than the inexperienced Danes and Canucks. That's for sure. Not that I have any love lost for them, Angleesh. ;-)

[I can't think of a name]

Along a similar vein, the US Army has been using the Stryker MGS in Iraq recently and it has not gotten great reviews.

Its role was that of the "assault gun". Infantry Fire Support. It has a L7 105mm on a stryker chassis. Its role is exactly what you guys are thinking the C2 would do. However it is lighter and smaller and probably would be better suited for the Sangin River area. I don't know much about the complaints but I guess it was not that useful.

[sp2c]

but Denmark has a platoon of Leopard2's in Helmand right now and they seem content with it

personally I think it would be best to have them and not need them then the other way around, goes for the Netherlands as well ... even as mobile pillboxes they should have some use around all the FOB's we all seem to be building all over the place

[Leuchte]

Like this..
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/m8.jpg
Taken in FOB Sandford, Upper Geresk Valley.

This is from a Danish lead British-Danish offensive operation in Upper Geresk Valley, Jan. 2008.

"On the 5. of januar a British InfCoy(1) made a push north on the east side of Helmand river in Upper Geresk Valley.
A Danish InfPlt(2) with their M113/M2-.50.cal and Charlie G M3 where supporting the advance from a position close to the river on the westside. Further west the Leopard 2 Plt(3) supported the operation from the high grounds, providing intel and firesupport."


http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/e1.jpg

"The British InfCoy quickly made contact with a larger Taliban force on the east side of the river. The Brits were attacked with small arms fire, RPG's and mortars.
The Danish InfPlt close to the river fired .50 cal and 84mm HE into Talibans positions."

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/e2.jpg
View from the Leo2 position during the operation

"The Danish positions were now attacked by Taliban forces on the west side of the river with RPG's and mortars.
This is when Taliban with 20-30 men tried to outflank the Danish InfPlt's position.
This were spotted through the Leos advanced thermal sighting system.
The attacking Taliban forces were taken out of action by 20 120mm rounds"

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z86/danskpanserbilleder/e3.jpg

"The whole operation was a succes and the were no fatalities on either the British or Danish side."

Translated from the Danish AOC's website.


Very interesting, thanks for this informations.

[eskachig]

I dont the the terrain favours tanks either, as the Russians discovered in the 80's.


No disrespect to the Russians, I don't think we should base anything off old Warsaw Pact tank doctorine. If we keep employing tanks as we have been, they will continue to be a good thing to have.

The Soviets used tanks with great effect and few losses in Afganistan - and because the enemy didn't have their own they didn't bother bringing their latest stuff, mostly T-55s I think.

[guest]

The primary reason is economic. Equipments like the C2 will bleed the British army of money faster than Taliban fanatics would them of blood.

Secondary reason: the Afghan landscape is not adequate for tank usage.

Looks like the British have way more common sense than the inexperienced Danes and Canucks. That's for sure. Not that I have any love lost for them, Angleesh. ;-)


You just proved how ignorant you are.

Ignorant about the OOB, ignorant about Afghanistan, ignorant about tactics and prceedures.

Thank you for calling to attention your complete lack of qualifications in providing any usefull insight.

[guest]

Canada was the first to bring large (relatively) Armoured vehicles in this current conflict in Afghanistan. LAVIII with 25mm.

We added our Leo1C2s to the fight, and then improved on that with Leo2A6M(CAN)

Now, we've been engaged in offensive operations for a number of years now, almost as long as the Americans

Do you not think, that maybe.. just maybe we know, what we are doing?!?

[guest]

If anyone has experience using large callibre and armor in Afghanistan, it's us. We've fielded the most, both in terms of numbers and variety.

Rounds in use by the CF (120mm)

DM-18A2 HEAT
Found to work well, just as well as 105mm HESH against walls and such

DM-33 APFSDS-T (SABOT)
For engaging vehicle targets at 3km + SABOT is inherantly more accurate at extreme ranges.

Think of it as the ultimate sniper rifle.

M1028 120mm Canister
For Anti Personal / Material

Oh, and this is from a Tanker, in Afghanistan.

Not a book worm.

[Scotus]

The primary reason is economic. Equipments like the C2 will bleed the British army of money faster than Taliban fanatics would them of blood.

Secondary reason: the Afghan landscape is not adequate for tank usage.

Looks like the British have way more common sense than the inexperienced Danes and Canucks. That's for sure. Not that I have any love lost for them, Angleesh. ;-)Not only is your tone snide, arrogant and extremely disrespectful to allies of France, you are factually incorrect on every level.

I am an Armoured soldier, and I know for a fact that your ideas are factually wrong hyperbole. True, the British Army may not (yet) be using Challenger 2s in Afghanistan, but not because they can not be used in said theatre. CVR(T)s have been extremely useful on Herrick, moving beyond their intended Formation Recce role and laying down direct fire, MBT-style.

30mm cannons, 105mm cannons (Leopard 1 C2) and 120mm cannons (Leopard 2A5DK/A6Ms) have been combat proven in Afghanistan. 30mm HE from 1km will ruin the day of gunmen seeking to form a prepared position. 120mm HESH is a nightmare for gunmen behind thick mud-huts or old walls.

France is apparently going to use ERC-90s in Afghanistan in a similar way to how we in the British Army have been using CVR(T)s. Yes, that is right, we are all in this together - so there is no time for for name-calling, national rivalry or exceptionally disrespectful attitudes.

[baboon6]

I know I've posted this before, but anyway this article from the Daily Mail claims that the commander of 12 Mechanised Brigade requested that a squadron of CR2, a troop of AS90 and a company of Warrior be added to the brigade's orbat before its tour began. The request was turned down , though the Warrior coy was eventually sent (in Aug last year):


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=417238&in_page_id=1770


He also asked for an extra infantry battalion, which was added before the brigade deployed, in the form of 1 WFR.

[oldsoak]

If anyone has experience using large callibre and armor in Afghanistan, it's us. We've fielded the most, both in terms of numbers and variety.

Rounds in use by the CF (120mm)

DM-18A2 HEAT
Found to work well, just as well as 105mm HESH against walls and such

DM-33 APFSDS-T (SABOT)
For engaging vehicle targets at 3km + SABOT is inherantly more accurate at extreme ranges.

Think of it as the ultimate sniper rifle.

M1028 120mm Canister
For Anti Personal / Material

Oh, and this is from a Tanker, in Afghanistan.

Not a book worm.

- OK, confused here. If 120mm HEAT is as effective ( and as your out there you would know ) as HESH, ie being used in effect as an HE round, why is there an MP round ? Or is the MP round a solution looking for a problem ?

[guest]

- OK, confused here. If 120mm HEAT is as effective ( and as your out there you would know ) as HESH, ie being used in effect as an HE round, why is there an MP round ? Or is the MP round a solution looking for a problem ?

Sorry I can't answer that one.

I'm 031, not a Black Hat. (I'll admit my practical knowledge of ordinance usage and weapon effects are limited to sub 25mm.)

I've seen the effects of the "Big uns", but couldn't really say why what is used when.

That information came from a member of this forum, who happens to crew a CF A6M
Assaulter KFOR99 is currently deployed.

[oldsoak]

No worries - safe home to all the guys deployed out there.

[The Dane]

This one would be nice to have in Upper Geresk Valley.
http://www.militaryvehicles.com/jpegs/171_full.jpg

M40A2 106mm on a M-274? mule.

:)

[LordTyphus]

Not only is your tone snide, arrogant and extremely disrespectful to allies of France, you are factually incorrect on every level.

I am an Armoured soldier, and I know for a fact that your ideas are factually wrong hyperbole. True, the British Army may not (yet) be using Challenger 2s in Afghanistan, but not because they can not be used in said theatre. CVR(T)s have been extremely useful on Herrick, moving beyond their intended Formation Recce role and laying down direct fire, MBT-style.

30mm cannons, 105mm cannons (Leopard 1 C2) and 120mm cannons (Leopard 2A5DK/A6Ms) have been combat proven in Afghanistan. 30mm HE from 1km will ruin the day of gunmen seeking to form a prepared position. 120mm HESH is a nightmare for gunmen behind thick mud-huts or old walls.

France is apparently going to use ERC-90s in Afghanistan in a similar way to how we in the British Army have been using CVR(T)s. Yes, that is right, we are all in this together - so there is no time for for name-calling, national rivalry or exceptionally disrespectful attitudes.

No parallel can be drawn between the deployment of an eight-ton Sagaie and the far more complex, sixty-ton or so C2. It is that silly mentality of always demanding logistically demanding equipments that will lose you that war.

[LordTyphus]

You just proved how ignorant you are.

Ignorant about the OOB, ignorant about Afghanistan, ignorant about tactics and prceedures.

Thank you for calling to attention your complete lack of qualifications in providing any usefull insight.

"Proceedures" and "usefull" speak volumes about your level of education. Stick to what you do best, man: taking orders from your superiors. They are the ones that do all the thinking and decide how wars are fought.

What do you know about my qualifications?

[Chops]

It is that silly mentality of always demanding logistically demanding equipments that will lose you that war.

And it is your ****house attitude that has resulted in your temporary ban. Return and continue and you can have the free upgrade.

[sergentdarmes]

Well , if you are an "officier d'active de l'arme blindée cavalerie" (regular armoured corps officer) you are entitled to voice your opinion about the use of tanks in Afghanistan, and I you have this qualification,you can reach me by P.M., we can exchange our Military ID numbers. But I found your other comments abusive: Afghanistan is OUR war too, and Danes and Canadians have more experience of combined arms there than our army. While I have some reservations about the off-duty conduct of some British soldiers, I found them very good at their job in Cambodia (Royal Marines) in Bosnia (Royal Anglian and in Kossovo (Black Watch). The British army has more experience and more success at both High and LowIntensity and special operations than others in Europe since 1970.

[Scotus]

No parallel can be drawn between the deployment of an eight-ton Sagaie and the far more complex, sixty-ton or so C2. It is that silly mentality of always demanding logistically demanding equipments that will lose you that war.I made no direct comparison between the ERC-90 and the Challenger 2. If you actually read my post, you would find I mentioned that "France is apparently going to use ERC-90s in Afghanistan in a similar way to how we in the British Army have been using CVR(T)s."

France and the UK and Canada, and the USA, are allies and presently conducting operations in a war zone. France's participation is set to increase, and there is no doubt there will be times we will be working up close and personal to lay down fire on the enemy. I have no idea why you feel the need to be so grotesquely pompous and confrontational, especially in light of the realities we face.


"Proceedures" and "usefull" speak volumes about your level of education. Stick to what you do best, man: taking orders from your superiors. They are the ones that do all the thinking and decide how wars are fought.
I do not know MP.net user Guest but he is a trained and experienced soldier. Unlike you, nothing he has said has been factually incorrect. If you were/are in the military and treat experienced men under your command with such arrogance, I would question your genuine officer potential.

[baboon6]

From the latest edition of the Canadian Army Journal, here is an article on the Canadian armoured experience in Afghanistan, by Major Trevor Cadieu, who commanded B Sqn Lord Strathcona's Horse when they they were the first NATO tank sub-unit to deploy:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/caj/documents/vol_10/iss_4/CAJ_vol10.4_03_e.pdf

[oscarni]

I have a question for the lads that have served or serving in the sandbox, have the German troops in Afghanistan deployed their Wiesel 1's or 2's? The reason I am wondering is that they have recently been deployed to africa in a UN roll.

As I understand it, it has a number of variants, with missile and 30 mm cannon versions. I will honest in that at present the only duties I know of that the Germans are offering are Medical personnel and some helicopters, but well I was wondering what do you guy's think of those wee Wiesel 1's 2's being deployed for convoy protection or patrol duties?

- Phil

[The Dane]

I have seen Wiesel I in the 20mm and TOW versions over there.
Can't remember seing any Wiesel II's but i guess they are also deployed.

[Lord Snooty]

can anybody tell me why the British Army is not using the Challenger 1 or 2 in Afghanistan when the Danes,Canadians are,is it doctrine or an unwillingness to admit how bad it is(a bit like not arming our police in certain areas,but thats a differnt issue)Anybody enlighten me

I think the picture below explains why the Danes & the Canadians have Leo's in Afghanistan and the British do not have C2's.

I'm absolutely not an expert but from what I have read the C2 is far too heavy to fly in while the Leopard is not. Shipping tanks in by road (Afghanistan is landlocked) may not be an option; there is only one real route & that is through Pakistan and is far too open to disruption. (I seem to recall reading somewhere that NATO have asked the Russians if they can ship logistics through their territory as supplies brought in through Pakistan are being delayed and disrupted too often. Iran, which is the only other possible land route is hardly a real option).

So that would be my view; its neither a cost saving issue nor a doctrinal issue but more a logistics issue.

Having said that, I have no doubt if the British Army said they were essential a way would be found to deploy C2's. (As was found with Warriors; like the Leo's they were flown in).



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Leopard_C2_Canadian_Forces.jpg

[baboon6]

That is a picture of a Leopard 1, not the Leo2 now being used by the Canadians and Danes in AFG. The difference in weight between the Leo2A6M and the Chally 2 is negligible- both about 62 tonnes.

[Supplanter]

Aren't there or weren't there Chally 2s in Iraq? How did they get there, were they shipped, driven or flown?

[baboon6]

Aren't there or weren't there Chally 2s in Iraq? How did they get there, were they shipped, driven or flown?

There is a squadron of CR2 in Iraq. They went there by ship.

[The Dane]

The British battlegroup around Lashkar Gar in Helmand been supported several times by the Leopard 2 platoon from the Danish battlegroup in a ongoing operation west of Lashkar Gar with great succes. In one TIC the platoon fired 31 shots from it's 120mm cannon..

So why not have one Challenger II platoons or two available at Bastion ?

And i think the Challenger with it's rifled cannon(and HESH) will be even better at delivering heavy direct fire compared to Leopard 2's smoothbore cannon(and HEAT-MP)..

[badly_packed_kebab]

Dont forget that part of the mission in Aghanistan is to win over "hearts and minds" of the populace. It seems that the general consensus in the Afghanistan is (or at least was) that too many 62 tonne tracked vehicles with a big fooking gun on top would be rather damaging to the locals perspective on the war - i.e. it scares the living s*** out of them. Although i'd bet they would be quite nice to have as a contingency plan instead of relying on lots of danger close air and artillery support for those forts that Terry like to occupy. Also, the HESH shells fired by the Chally's main gun are apparently better at engaging buildings and softer vehicles than other more dedicated anti-tank shells.

[welshmann]

Dont forget that part of the mission in Aghanistan is to win over "hearts and minds" of the populace. It seems that the general consensus in the Afghanistan is (or at least was) that too many 62 tonne tracked vehicles with a big fooking gun on top would be rather damaging to the locals perspective on the war - i.e. it scares the living s*** out of them. Although i'd bet they would be quite nice to have as a contingency plan instead of relying on lots of danger close air and artillery support for those forts that Terry like to occupy. Also, the HESH shells fired by the Chally's main gun are apparently better at engaging buildings and softer vehicles than other more dedicated anti-tank shells.

good point m8,or is this thread a load of bollox because its a dull question? why ship the challanger to astan?????? we got the Canadians and Danes doing a good job in the FOB's and other places.

rember these guys have for years trained side by side supproting british infantry.


disclaimer: or other NATO countrys infantry

[The Dane]

good point m8,or is this thread a load of bollox because its a dull question? why ship the challanger to astan?????? we got the Canadians and Danes doing a good job in the FOB's and other places.

rember these guys have for years trained side by side supproting british infantry.


disclaimer: or other NATO countrys infantry

That's true. But shipping Challengers and Leopard's to Helmand is much easier now with Bastions new runway. The Danish tanks are now being flown directly to and from Camp Bastion with British C-17's..

[The Dane]

The Danish A-troop(Leopard2A5 and M113G3's) supported a British led operation last friday.. They are very busy! :)