Captain of Irish descent objected to drinking to 'an unelected monarch of foreign ori

[ex1cdo]

Officer's complaint a royal pain, judge says

Captain of Irish descent objected to drinking to 'an unelected monarch of foreign origin'

TU THANH HA
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080122.wqueen22/BNStory/National/)
January 22, 2008 at 4:03 AM EST

Outward displays of loyalty to the Queen are fundamental to Canadian military discipline, a judge has ruled, rejecting the complaint of an army officer of Irish ancestry who objected to toasting "an unelected monarch of foreign origin."

Captain Aralt Mac Giolla Chainnigh has campaigned for years to be excused from regimental dinner traditions such as toasting the Queen, saluting the Union Jack or singing God Save the Queen.

However, in a 28-page ruling released yesterday, Mr. Justice Robert Barnes of the Federal Court said confusion would ensue if members of the military could opt out of various protocol requirements.

"A chaotic and unworkable situation would arise in such an environment."

The ruling was the latest setback for Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, who told the court that "he has throughout his military career consistently expressed his disaffection for the British monarchy."

In an interview yesterday, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, said that Canada, as a sovereign democracy, cannot be at the same time be beholden to a foreign queen. "It's a logical impossibility," he said.

He referred to the Queen as "Elizabeth Windsor."

In his judgment, Judge Barnes wrote that the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Rick Hillier, was right when he decided in August, 2006, to support a grievance board ruling that rejected the captain's claims.

"Whether Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh likes it or not, the fact is that the Queen is his Commander-in-Chief and Canada's Head of State," Judge Barnes wrote.

Refusing to display loyalty to the Queen, the judge added, "would not only be an expression of profound disrespect and rudeness, but it would also represent an unwillingness to adhere to hierarchical and lawful command structures that are fundamental to good discipline."

Having represented himself in Federal Court, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh said he cannot afford the professional counsel needed for an appeal. He is hoping republican groups might pick up his cause.

Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh, who legally changed his name from Harold Kenny to the Gaelic version, is an associate professor of physics at Royal Military College in Kingston, and a member of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry.

He has long been active in promoting Irish culture in Canada. His office voicemail answers in Irish Gaelic and he is president of the North American Association for Celtic Language Teachers.

Asked whether his background might have informed his views on the monarchy, he said he didn't want to mix culture and politics.However, he added that "Ireland, like most countries that have been colonized and suffered the scourges of imperialism, understands perhaps a little bit better than other nations what the extremely negative aspects are of a government that's not responsible to the people."

When he enrolled at the age of 16 in 1975, Capt. Mac Giolla Chainnigh had been reluctant to take the required oath of allegiance to the Queen and said he proceeded only after being told that it was simply "a figurative way" of pledging his loyalty to the people of Canada.

"I recognize loyalty to the people of Canada alone. I could drink a toast to Elizabeth as a person - if I knew her," the captain told the court. "I could drink a toast to her as the head of state of the United Kingdom, in respect for visitors from that country. But I cannot in good faith toast her as the Queen of Canada."






Well, don't let the door hit you on the arse on your way out. Maybe you'd feel more at home in some republic's army, but they probably wouldn't be too keen on someone who didn't take their oath seriously, either.

[gaijinsamurai]

Reminds me of when i was in Kuwait in 2000. I hung out with the Brit soldiers at Camp Doha. They quartered an Irish-American Marine Lieutenant Colonel in their barracks, and he deliberately provoked them by hanging up a big Irish flag on the wall. One Brit soldier, who had served with the Kings Own Scottish Borderers in Northern Ireland, vented his feelings towards Irish-Americans and what he perceived to be their meddling in Brit-Irish affairs.

[Faheywitane]

It should be remembered that the Tri-colour of the Republic of Ireland
is our countries flag, not a banner for extremists, even though some have tried to hijack it in the past. Do British soldiers see the tri-colour
as a IRA flag?? That would be like me, an Irish citizen associating
the Union Jack purely with unionist terrorists (I would like to stress that I
dont). If so I am saddened to hear that so much hatred exists between
our two nations.
I deplore the actions Marine LTC because he hung my countries flag on a wall!!
I hate seeing it used as a draping or table cloth, it should always be
treated with respect.
Hang it from a flagpoll :(

[Mark Sman]

toasting the Queen, saluting the Union Jack or singing God Save the Queen

Down your free drink, wave something at the flag and make up your own words.

Most of the Irish I have known would apply some variant of that as a solution.

I'm not a fan of any royalty, but if you signed up you signed up.

[gaijinsamurai]

I completely agree with you, Faheywitane, and even though they were my friends, I felt the Brit soldiers were being a little oversensitive. The Scottish soldier I mentioned explained to me that a good friend of his was killed while on patrol by a Barrett .50 cal, which had been smuggled to Northern Ireland by Irish-American sympathizers of the IRA.

I've got no problem with Americans showing their ethnic roots, either. My grandmother was Cherokee and Irish-American (Protestant), and it was a source of great pride to her.

[oldsoak]

- Wasnt he aware of the traditions when he joined or did he choose to ignore them ?
There are protocols involved in any army - an individual of British descent joining the Irish Army would have to observe their traditions - which is only right. If he objected to any of these, then he needs to reconsider his job if he feels strongly enough. Ultimately it is the state that defines the suitability of such protocols, and as he is in the employment of the state, he has to observe what they define. If he chooses not to and is allowed to do so, then what else can he choose not to observe ? The comission of those above him ?

I am quite sure that officers of Irish Defence Forces have been invited to the officers mess' of British Irish regiments and have graciously observed the protocols there. Now, if they can do it, so can he.

edit - @ Faheywitane - I agree, I see the tricolour as the flag of the Irish Republic, and treat it with the respect accorded to any sovereign state. I also object to those displaying it as a means of legitimising organisations or activites that discredit her legitimate armed forces and would land them in jail in the Republic. I also wear green and gold when Kerry play ! :-)

[Faheywitane]

Glad to hear it lads, Cpt O Cionnaidh (thats how I would spell Kenny in Irish)
shouldn't have joined the Canadian Forces if he wasn't comfortable
with toasting the queen, she is the Canadian head of state and should
be respected as such, if the Canadian people are happy with that, he
is merely disrespecting them.

edit - Oldsoak - Im more of a hurling man myself :D

[muttbutt]

- Wasnt he aware of the traditions when he joined or did he choose to ignore them ?
There are protocols involved in any army - an individual of British descent joining the Irish Army would have to observe their traditions - which is only right. If he objected to any of these, then he needs to reconsider his job if he feels strongly enough. Ultimately it is the state that defines the suitability of such protocols, and as he is in the employment of the state, he has to observe what they define. If he chooses not to and is allowed to do so, then what else can he choose not to observe ? The comission of those above him ?

I am quite sure that officers of Irish Defence Forces have been invited to the officers mess' of British Irish regiments and have graciously observed the protocols there. Now, if they can do it, so can he.

edit - @ Faheywitane - I agree, I see the tricolour as the flag of the Irish Republic, and treat it with the respect accorded to any sovereign state. I also object to those displaying it as a means of legitimising organisations or activites that discredit her legitimate armed forces and would land them in jail in the Republic. I also wear green and gold when Kerry play ! :-)
It's the plastic paddy syndrome, the further you/we get from Ireland the more Irish we get......we over do it at times.

[VMICadetJNA]

So if the Captain is a professor at the Royal Military College, couldn't he leave the service, yet still be a civilian professor, or is that not how it works there?
Anyway, I'd really be disappointed with a Marine LTC, as much as a person in my position could, for taking the liberty to vent anti-British sentiment, for a war the he could not be even slightly involved in, against one of our countries few allies in this war. An American military officer, especially a field grade one, has one allegiance and one only, that applies to Captain Gaelic in Canada as well. The key part to being an Irish-American is being American.

[Maj C]

Reminds me of when i was in Kuwait in 2000. I hung out with the Brit soldiers at Camp Doha. They quartered an Irish-American Marine Lieutenant Colonel in their barracks, and he deliberately provoked them by hanging up a big Irish flag on the wall. One Brit soldier, who had served with the Kings Own Scottish Borderers in Northern Ireland, vented his feelings towards Irish-Americans and what he perceived to be their meddling in Brit-Irish affairs.

There is always a huge contingent of the Boston Mafia in the USMC officer ranks. During my TBS class they warned all the Irish to not say anything to the Royal Marine LtCol who was giving a class on counter-insurgency...sure enough some ****head from Boston stands up and asks "when are the British leaving Northern Ireland?" To which the Royal Marine calmly but firmly replied in a rico suave Roger Moore tone "Northen Ireland has always been and always will be a part of Great Britain" (I'm not sure of the validity of that but it sounded good) and all the non-Irish in the class jumped up and cheered just for putting this meathead down. :) We used to hear about guys from Boston putting allotments from their paychecks to the IRA - which is stupid because the USMC has always had great relationships with Brit forces.

[Ordie]

Irish Americans like all hyphenated Americans strive to be different. Very often they get a distorted view of history and cultural norms carried on from thier grandparents and great grandparents.

More specifically the anti-English victim narratives of the Potato Famine, Oliver Cromwell and anti-Catholic policies.

Not surpisingly the Provo-IRA capitalized on these views among the Irish Americans in Boston and New York. I met an Irish American Army vet in Dublin saying that he wanted to raise an army to get rid of the Brits (After 6 pints of Guinness) The barkeep kicked him out and everyone cheered.

A fellow pub patron complained that American Irish are two generations behind the rest of Ireland. He made it a point that over 100,000 from neutral Ireland joined the British armed forces during WW2.

[Faheywitane]

There is always a huge contingent of the Boston Mafia in the USMC officer ranks. During my TBS class they warned all the Irish to not say anything to the Royal Marine LtCol who was giving a class on counter-insurgency...sure enough some ****head from Boston stands up and asks "when are the British leaving Northern Ireland?" To which the Royal Marine calmly but firmly replied in a rico suave Roger Moore tone "Northen Ireland has always been and always will be a part of Great Britain" (I'm not sure of the validity of that but it sounded good) and all the non-Irish in the class jumped up and cheered just for putting this meathead down. :) We used to hear about guys from Boston putting allotments from their paychecks to the IRA - which is stupid because the USMC has always had great relationships with Brit forces.

That maybe so but I doubt that it was a majority of people.

[EvanL]

Theres a lot of that type of mentality. Thankfully there isn't that much of it here in Canada. But when I was living in NYC, there was always those people who were 7th generation Irish or their great great grandmother came over from Ireland, who acted like they just came off the boat. The St. Patricks day parade in New York always had a big group with banners saying "British Out Of Ireland". I find it ridiculous that if they are so concerned with the "plight" of "their" people, then they should move back and live with their people. Thankfully there isn't much of it here where I'm from, and Ottawa was basically built by the Irish. They're proud of their roots, and they remember it, but we're Canadian.

[gaijinsamurai]

I think of any ethnicity in the US, the Irish-Americans tend to have the greatest reputation for "over-doing" it.

[SBL]

I think of any ethnicity in the US, the Irish-Americans tend to have the greatest reputation for "over-doing" it.


Hmmm, I dunno. Some Italian-Americans tend to be pretty obnoxious.
I tend to think it's kind of a New York thing.

[VMICadetJNA]

I think of any ethnicity in the US, the Irish-Americans tend to have the greatest reputation for "over-doing" it.
It actually seems to me that there are far more other ethnicities that over do it. The problem with "Irish-Americans" is that there are alot of people out there especially of college age who follow this equation: Irish+Alcohol= awesomeness, and as a result claim Irish roots despite having very little connection at all if any to Ireland. Unfortunately for people who do have very close ties with Ireland, these people give Irish-Americans a bad reputation (ie. plastic paddys, and the St. Patrick's Day "oh I'm Irish cause I can drink alot and its cool..." kids). Believe it or not there are Americans who have close roots to Ireland, who don't go around saying "oh I'm from Ireland" or wear IRA T-Shirts around despite not being able to point out Ireland on a globe.
My parents are both first generation born in America, my Grandmother tried to teach me Gaelic, with little success... but I like to think I don't fit what alot of people seem to think is the stereotypical "Irish-American" plastic paddy. I'm just saying give some of us some credit for not being complete douche bags... besides the guy in this article is Canadian, not American.

[Royal]

The scrote should be cashiered - if he doesn't want to uphold his oath to the Queen, then he's not fit to hold her Commission.

I thought better of the Princess Pats than that :(

and don't get me started on the Boston Irish p-)

The tricolour is the flag of a friendly nation and should be respected as such - I'm happy to say that Irish officers with whom I've drunk the loyal toast have felt the same sentiments in reverse.

[EvanL]

http://www.shopdownhome.com/products/big/10630.jpg
Check out the Newfoundland Tri-colour.

[Maj C]

That maybe so but I doubt that it was a majority of people.
what? the allotment? yeah i'm not even sure it was true - just one of those - I heard so-and-so does this type things.

it was just funny - thinking back to that school it was like being in the movie "The Departed"...half the people in my company talked like that...

[Calanen]

This reminds me of a joke that the comedian Spike Milligan used to tell. He said that he would never miss an opportunity to kick people in the cinema who refused to stand for the national anthem. He said that this was not because he was particularly patriotic, or that he liked the national anthem, but that it was a very good excuse to kick people.

It seems to me that this captain just wanted to make an excuse to get on his high horse about something. The Queen is his head of state, and until that changes, he has to toast her and treat her with respect.

I'm a plastic paddy, but believe that as the head of state is the Queen, and the Colonel of many regiments, those in the military and elsewhere should have no problem toasting Her Majesty. He also could have raised his glass and said 'To free Ireland' or whatever he wanted, and no one would have noticed.

[futurepilot2004]

I
My parents are both first generation born in America, my Grandmother tried to teach me Gaelic,

Well considering Gaelic is 3 different languages that would be pretty hard:)

[boreal]

I had some problems in Ireland when they knowed that I´m basque, I never thought that our local terrorists were so popular in the rest of the EU.

[muttbutt]

I had some problems in Ireland when they knowed that I´m basque, I never thought that our local terrorists were so popular in the rest of the EU.
Only to the ignorant, most of them proably couldn't point to Spain never mind the Basque region on a map.:roll:

[EvanL]

Ireland was the friendliest place I ever visited. I would love to make it back there one day soon.

[Faheywitane]

Well considering Gaelic is 3 different languages that would be pretty hard:)
Ive always wondered where
Irish - Americans got Gaelic (which they always seem to
prenounce as gay-lick) out of??? Over here we refer to the
language as Gaeilge (prenounced Gay-ill-ga) or just Irish.
Not trying to discourage anybody from learning it though,
its a beautiful, albiet archaric language.
"Is o fada annal a thainig an Gaeilge cughainn"

[California Joe]

The scrote should be cashiered - if he doesn't want to uphold his oath to the Queen, then he's not fit to hold her Commission.

I thought better of the Princess Pats than that :(

and don't get me started on the Boston Irish p-)

The tricolour is the flag of a friendly nation and should be respected as such - I'm happy to say that Irish officers with whom I've drunk the loyal toast have felt the same sentiments in reverse.

The guy does sound like an asshead on a mission. It's just plain bad manners.

There's always a few in every unit.

The "Boston Irish" tend to have a romanticized view of the "Old Country" because they've been indoctrinated since birth with a single view of history, and they don't actually have to do anything other than sing rebel songs and lament the "troubles".

I'm of Irish and Scottish heritage with some French Canadian thrown in. In fact, all of my Scottish ancestors seem to have preferred banging French women...That being said, although I know all the words to "John Kelly, the boy from Kilarn" I don't run around in a plastic green bowler once a year.

[muttbutt]

I'd agree with alot of this, many of those Boston Irish ect were brought up with let's face it a bit of an inferiority complex, now those of us in Ireland grew past it, the country improved and we came out of both the economic and cultural backwater place we were, we can talk to other countries on a more or less equal footing, they still have these ideas of a quaint Ireland with bog's, pubs and colleens dancing jigs at the crossroad, well the Bogs are being dug up, the pubs are closing down and the colleens is most likely a hooker from the Ukraine nowadays....and she ain't dancing:oops:

[VMICadetJNA]

Ive always wondered where
Irish - Americans got Gaelic (which they always seem to
prenounce as gay-lick) out of??? Over here we refer to the
language as Gaeilge (prenounced Gay-ill-ga) or just Irish.
Not trying to discourage anybody from learning it though,
its a beautiful, albiet archaric language.
"Is o fada annal a thainig an Gaeilge cughainn"
Actually, funny story, I personally got it from a professor of mine who insisted that it was Gaelic, and that calling the language Irish was just wrong, I was doing a paper on the Irish Civil War and its blend of conventional warfare of the day with guerrilla tactics. Since then I personally just use that way of spelling it to avoid confusion, because the Lord knows that I cant afford to piss off a professor over something like that.... Once my Grandparents all died I realized that I didn't have anymore family in America except my parents...once that happened my Aunts and Uncles asked me about moving over there after I finish my Marine Corps obligation post-graduation. I'm honestly considering it just so I can be closer to them, I haven't spent time with them since I was in middle school. But yeah, I really have bad luck with languages, so learning Irish is just not in the cards for me, I was able to navigate Finnegan's Wake with a lexicon but thats as far as I go.....

Just for my own education, Faheywitane, how bad is our reputation in Ireland? For that matter, what is the sentiment towards Irish-Canadians?

[Engine Mech]

If the man has a problem with toasting the queen. He should offer a toast to the little man in the black fur coat.

[Faheywitane]

Just for my own education, Faheywitane, how bad is our reputation in Ireland? For that matter, what is the sentiment towards Irish-Canadians?

I can only speak for the majority of people in the Republic when I say
that we tend to take people as they come,
for the
most part were just layed back, if your up for a bit of crack you'll get
on great with everybody!!
That said, the reason some Irish people may have a tendency to dislike Americans is this, I have worked in our tourist industry for years and most Americans that I have met have been great people (I had a talk with a guy last year in a Bar where I worked about the American Civil war, in comparison to our civil war) and good tippers to boot!! The problem is that
a small but VOCAL minority like to go on about our 'quaint' Irish towns and
how everything is ten times bigger and better in the US (coincidently these people tend to be bad tippers :)). That type of bluster obviously annoys us,as it would anybody im sure.

[oldsoak]

Had an Irish mate who went over to see some rellies in NZ and got introduced to a plastic paddy who promptly chucked a barbecue and put on diddly-dee musack and songs wot are banned both sides of the border. He felt quite uncomfortable, poor chap ! He said it might have been something his grandfather remembered, but he'd no graw for it. Mind you, he'd been working here for at least the 15 years I'd known him. I saw him mourn when Kerry lost the all Ireland though ! :lol:

[Buckeye67]

The captain knew full well what he was getting into when he joined. I agree with Royal that the guy should get the proverbial boot in the arse.


I had some problems in Ireland when they knowed that I´m basque, I never thought that our local terrorists were so popular in the rest of the EU.

What's ironic about that is that the inhabitants of the British Isles (particularly Ireland, Wales and Scotland), from a genetic(/historical) standpoint are basques/from the Iberian Peninsula. At least, according to genetic research (http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817) by Stephen Oppenheimer. Another article here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2006/10/10/ecbrits10.xml). Interesting research.


Ive always wondered where
Irish - Americans got Gaelic (which they always seem to
prenounce as gay-lick) out of??? Over here we refer to the
language as Gaeilge (prenounced Gay-ill-ga) or just Irish.
Not trying to discourage anybody from learning it though,
its a beautiful, albiet archaric language.
"Is o fada annal a thainig an Gaeilge cughainn"

Most of us over on this side of the pond, who are interested in that sort of thing, understand that the colloquialism "gaelic" to refer specifically to irish isn't entirely appropriate (yeah, we know about scots and manx gaelic.. and even the brythonic languages like cornish, welsh and breton p-) ). But it's just that - a colloquialism. That doesn't bug me as much as using the term "celtic" to describe irish traditional music (or scots, or breton, or galician for that matter). But that's way off topic for the thread. :)

Back on topic, the captain's going out of his way to be a wanker and needs to find a new line of work, IMO.

[VMICadetJNA]

The problem is that
a small but VOCAL minority like to go on about our 'quaint' Irish towns and
how everything is ten times bigger and better in the US (coincidently these people tend to be bad tippers :)). That type of bluster obviously annoys us,as it would anybody im sure.
Thats funny because this past summer, my Uncle Jim and his family from Kildare came to Lexington, VA on a trip down the East Coast, USA and stopped into the restaurant where I was working. They wanted to drive the Blue Ridge Mountain Parkway and unbeknown to me, Lexington has an "entrance" to the parkway. but I digress, talk about bad tippers, my own Uncle tipped me 5 US$ on a 78$ ticket. I like to believe that it was just an exchange rate misunderstanding :|.

anyway, I take it that the sentiment in the Republic isn't anti-British to the extent that such a statement like the one the Canadian Captain made would be accepted? For that matter what is the sentiment towards the British and the Monarchy in the Oglaigh na hEireann?

[Faheywitane]

Well unfortunately for those of us in the catering industry over here, Irish people tend to tip very little, or not at all!! Its seen as paying some one
double (not my opinion). It might have something to do with the minimum wage being around US$10. Dont know if a minimum wage exists in the US???

As for the Irish and British armies, I would say they have a very good working relationship. Members of the DF regularly attend courses in Britian.
I dont know about the British, but speaking as a member of the RDF I can
say that the British forces are viewed with respect.

[oldsoak]

Well unfortunately for those of us in the catering industry over here, Irish people tend to tip very little, or not at all!! Its seen as paying some one
double (not my opinion). It might have something to do with the minimum wage being around US$10. Dont know if a minimum wage exists in the US???

As for the Irish and British armies, I would say they have a very good working relationship. Members of the DF regularly attend courses in Britian.
I dont know about the British, but speaking as a member of the RDF I can
say that the British forces are viewed with respect.

I'd say it goes the other way to. The blokes I know of who have met the Irish Army in Bos etc thought them a great bunch.

[SHAM]

In relation to the Term "British Isles" and Ireland.


28 September 2005. In his response, the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs stated "The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term. Our officials in the Embassy of Ireland, London, continue to monitor the media in Britain for any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation. These include the name of the State, the President, Taoiseach and others."
"New atlas lets Ireland slip shackles of Britain". A spokesman for the Irish Embassy in London said: “The British Isles has a dated ring to it, as if we are still part of the Empire. We are independent, we are not part of Britain, not even in geographical terms. We would discourage its usage.”

From an Irish perspective it is seen as a kick back to days of occupation, when place names (kings town, queens town etc) were changed. On gaining independence the names were swiftly changed back, so therefore as quoted above the Irish people and Gov do not recognise the term.
Brits shouldnt be offended by this.

See below for those who would refer to Ireland as "Southern Ireland" and "Southern Irish" when referring to Irish People.

^ The diplomatic and constitutional name of the Irish state is simply Ireland. For disambiguation purposes "Republic of Ireland" is often used though technically that is not the name of the state but, according to the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, its "description". Article 4, Bunreacht na hÉireann. Section 2, Republic of Ireland Act, 1948.

[Eoin666]

In relation to the Term "British Isles" and Ireland.

From an Irish perspective it is seen as a kick back to days of occupation, when place names (kings town, queens town etc) were changed. On gaining independence the names were swiftly changed back, so therefore as quoted above the Irish people and Gov do not recognise the term.
Brits shouldnt be offended by this.

See below for those who would refer to Ireland as "Southern Ireland" and "Southern Irish" when referring to Irish People.

Interesting reading :)

I read somewhere ages ago some academic was proposing a similar thing The British and Irish Isles or whatever, geologically it's the same anyway.

No matter where you go emigres are always the same, only in the US it carries on persisting down the generations, following an exercise in Alaska of all places a couple of blokes in a bar came out with the old "I'm Irish-American, blah blah".....effing English this, that, and the other and how "we" should also get out of Scotland and Wales, when I pointed out that the guys I was drinking with included 2 English, 2 Scots, a Welshman...oh and the 2 here at the bar with me were from Belfast and Coleraine.....ya feckin eejits.

[ex Strathcona]

i think the good Captain made what we used to call a "Career limiting move"
Captain for life.

[Maj C]

speaking of Irish ancestors...
http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/25/people.ferrell.ap/art.ferrell.ap.jpg
http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/Movies/01/25/people.ferrell.ap/index.html

bastard cheated off me in Trig-Analytical Geometry in High School!

[tyovan]

^ Why does anyone like him - he's so unfunny..