Estonia plans to unveil memorial to SS veterans

[UkrainianAmerican]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1085208931045


The Society of Fighters for Estonia's Freedom, which includes, among others, veterans of the Estonian 20th SS division, has initiated the opening of a monument to Estonian SS fighters who fought for Nazi Germany during WWII, Russia's Interfax quoted the Postimees newspaper as reporting on Saturday.



The initiators plan to install the monument in Tallinn's district of Maarjamae, about fifty meters away from a memorial in honor of the Soviet forces who fought in Estonia, in July this year, Interfax said.

Three large crosses are already installed at the site. The new monument is intended to include plaques bearing the names of 16 Estonian units that fought for the Wehrmacht. There will also be flagpoles, a plaque with explanatory text in four languages, and a cast-iron map of Estonia indicating the places where the SS units fought against the Soviet army, the Russian news agency reported.

The unveiling of the SS monument may serve to escalate neo-Nazism and anti-Semitism there, said Russia's Chief Rabbi Berl Lazar, Pravda reported.

Lazar said that the unveiling of monuments to Nazis is, first of all, an EU problem because Estonia has now joined the EU.

Moreover, Lazar told Pravda that the unveiling of a monument to an SS officer is an Israeli problem because Israel fights any manifestations of Nazism and anti-Semitism in line with its state policy.
asshats.

[Marmot1]

??? Well they want to erect monument for their ppl who fighted alongside one ocupant against other ocupant??? what's wrong with that?

[Haiw]

Though I can see the problem in it because they fought for the SS in a way it does make sense. The USSR occupied their country, and all they did was fight their occupiers in a foreign army.

[CRAZY MERC]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

[Marmot1]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

No.. it is something diferent since those ppl (estonians) were not nazis, they were estonian nationalists who served in german army to fight against ocupants (remember estonia was invaded and incorporated into SU in 1940 and this is diference.

[UkrainianAmerican]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

No.. it is something diferent since those ppl (estonians) were not nazis, they were estonian nationalists who served in german army to fight against ocupants (remember estonia was invaded and incorporated into SU in 1940 and this is diference.
We are not talking about the Germann regular Army, we are talking about the SS.

[Haiw]

That's because they couldn't join the Army, they could only join the SS. And to my knowledge these soldiers only faught against the Russians, and since the Russians had occupied their country...well...it doesn't seem all that...weird.

[Marmot1]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

No.. it is something diferent since those ppl (estonians) were not nazis, they were estonian nationalists who served in german army to fight against ocupants (remember estonia was invaded and incorporated into SU in 1940 and this is diference.
We are not talking about the Germann regular Army, we are talking about the SS.

not regular Algemaine SS but Waffen SS, and as Haiw stated in Herr (Wermacht) only germans were alowed to serve others were only alowed to serve in Waffen SS.

[Bombtrack]

Yeah i don't see a problem with it

[SR15]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

No.. it is something diferent since those ppl (estonians) were not nazis, they were estonian nationalists who served in german army to fight against ocupants (remember estonia was invaded and incorporated into SU in 1940 and this is diference.

if they were figthing with Nazis they are nazis,
so they making monument to Nazis
what next monument to Adolf cause he was good guy?

[kingreverent]

There is a very big problem. Those SS units were not only units who fought alongside the german SS against the Rusians, but in the first place, they were the "Einsatzgruppen", the mobile killing units who murdered the jewish population in the East. They were "so good" in killing those innocent people that the German Einsatzgruppen didn't have to do a thing... Then they were used as camp-guards and participated in destroying the jewish polulation of the Warsaw-ghetto.
First they killed all the Jewish population, their own neighbours, in mass graves. See this link:http://www.olokaustos.org/geo/altro/liepaja/liepaja.htm

Click on the picture and then go further(immagini constitutivi) those are the "great hero's" who became the Latvian SS for whom a monument is to erected.
Do you think that those mass-murderers are worthy to erect a monument?
I don't speak of the normal Waffen-SS who fought bravely for Germany and thought that they were right, like WITTMANN M. etc. I'm speaking here of cruel Latvian mass-murderers! Their sole goal was to kill the Jewish polulation of Europe.

[Bombtrack]

There is a very big problem. Those SS units were not only units who fought alongside the german SS against the Rusians, but in the first place, they were the "Einsatzgruppen", the mobile killing units who murdered the jewish population in the East. They were "so good" in killing those innocent people that the German Einsatzgruppen didn't have to do a thing... Then they were used as camp-guards and participated in destroying the jewish polulation of the Warsaw-ghetto.
First they killed all the Jewish population, their own neighbours, in mass graves. See this link:http://www.olokaustos.org/geo/altro/liepaja/liepaja.htm

Click on the picture and then go further(immagini constitutivi) those are the "great hero's" who became the Latvian SS for whom a monument is to erected.
Do you think that those mass-murderers are worthy to erect a monument?
I don't speak of the normal Waffen-SS who fought bravely for Germany and thought that they were right, like WITTMANN M. etc. I'm speaking here of cruel Latvian mass-murderers! Their sole goal was to kill the Jewish polulation of Europe.

You are referring to Latvians? This is about Estonians.

[CRAZY MERC]

I think estonians are doing that to piss off russians. Search in google and you will find a lot of info about these Estonian SS units. Lots of them were involved in mass killing of jews, russians, ukranians and so on. There are some pictures as well. Building of this monument would be like spit in the face of people who fought against nazis.

[Chris1]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

No.. it is something diferent since those ppl (estonians) were not nazis, they were estonian nationalists who served in german army to fight against ocupants (remember estonia was invaded and incorporated into SU in 1940 and this is diference.

if they were figthing with Nazis they are nazis,
so they making monument to Nazis
what next monument to Adolf cause he was good guy?
crap.
They have exactly the same right to honour their dead and the courage of their soldiers as anyone else.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I think estonians are doing that to piss off russians. Search in google and you will find a lot of info about these Estonian SS units. Lots of them were involved in mass killing of jews, russians, ukranians and so on. There are some pictures as well. Building of this monument would be like spit in the face of people who fought against nazis.
Yep, things like this almost have me thinking that all the **** that they deserved all the **** that Stalin did.

[Haiw]

I think estonians are doing that to piss off russians. Search in google and you will find a lot of info about these Estonian SS units. Lots of them were involved in mass killing of jews, russians, ukranians and so on. There are some pictures as well. Building of this monument would be like spit in the face of people who fought against nazis.
Yep, things like this almost have me thinking that all the **** that they deserved all the **** that Stalin did.
And again people shake their heads in disbelief at the proza you produce...

[California Joe]

Not EXACTLY the same thing but here in Virginia there are countless Confederate monuments to the bravery of the troops that fought battles here under the Stars and Bars.

[Navy]

Why not? Remember, its THEIR country...

[radon]

Building of this monument would be like spit in the face of people who fought against nazis.
Regarding the russians from ww2 then I couldnt care less... Sources would be great.

http://www.russiaeu.org/ss-est.htm
This is the only really negative thing I found about the estonians. But this source isn't good.

Anyway they fought at the battle of Narva. And some Estonian resistance groups were directly transferred to ss at some point. And there were many people fighting against the russians, so if a few did commit atrocities that doesent everyone did.


if they were figthing with Nazis they are nazis,
so they making monument to Nazis

Remember who fought with soviets. And it is not necessary posting about russian camps and atrocities. Or is it wrong to use this logic when talking about soviets. And soviets were as much as expansionalist as nazis. Both of them tried spreading theyr system.

[Mamon]

if they were figthing with Nazis they are nazis,
so they making monument to Nazis
what next monument to Adolf cause he was good guy?
The Spanish formed a division to fight the Russians alongside the Germans in WWII. Does that make them Nazis? No, just means they wanted vengeance for Soviet participation in the Spanish Civil War. That's as incredulous as saying every German soldier was a Nazi :roll: If the Estonians want to put up a memorial to honor their soldiers, who are we or anyone to say they can't?

[Marmot1]

IN polad we have similar problem since Soviets created so caled Peoples Polish Army (Ludowe Wojsko Polskie) does that make all soldiers of LWP commies??? No most of them were just poor ppl who either were deported to Siberia and joining LWP was their only chance to go back to poland or joined army to fight Germans... I respect them as much as I respect Polish Soldiers who served in Polish Army in France,Italy,Great Britain... they all fighted for Poland not for ideology, well maybe some of them fighted for that but not many... before WW2 Comunist Party of Poland had no more than few thousand supporters and i.e LWP had almost 450 000 soldiers most of them didn't give a **** about comunism. I think the same apply to estonians, vast mayority of them were just estonian patriots fighting for their country which was anected by Soviets in 1940, so for them Germans were liberators from Soviet opresion.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Not EXACTLY the same thing but here in Virginia there are countless Confederate monuments to the bravery of the troops that fought battles here under the Stars and Bars.
I dont recall Confederate Death Caps however.
EDIT
While confederates army might have done some ****, I dont think comparison between them Nazis is a valid one. Especially since its basically common knowledge that slavery was almost irrelevant in the War.

[SeanAshi]

Confederates traders to the Union, and piss on the Confederate flag.

[Bulkowski]

I don't have a problem with it, they weren't the SS who took part in the crimes against Jews, etc.

[California Joe]

Confederates traders to the Union, and piss on the Confederate flag.

Not sure what that means and actually I'm a Yankee living behind enemy lines ;) but usually these monuments are often put up by family members and communities to honor people they knew, not necessarily the wider political causes that were involved in the conflict.

[Thor]

One have to judge the SS and the Waffen-SS separetly. Waffen-SS was more of a volountary european army with almost every nationality represented. I'm not sure but I think it was some hot shot american general who after the war said that if it were'nt for the tenacious fighting of a few Waffen SS divisions the Berlin-wall would never have been built, because the english channel would have been the line between communist east and the free western world.

Have that in mind. I'd say anyone who killed russians during the war helped saving the rest of Europe from communist rule.

[Navy]

WORD!

RussianAmerican: Are you a communist? :roll:

My relatives had to escape from estonia cause of idiots like you. And they WERENT nazis.

[Abbyy]

I think estonians are doing that to piss off russians. Search in google and you will find a lot of info about these Estonian SS units. Lots of them were involved in mass killing of jews, russians, ukranians and so on. There are some pictures as well. Building of this monument would be like spit in the face of people who fought against nazis.
Yep, things like this almost have me thinking that all the **** that they deserved all the **** that Stalin did.

Actually, except occupation itself Stalin did very few amount of **** to them. Baltic republics were ones of most prosperous during Soviet Union times.

[radon]

"Prosperous" hahhhaah :|

[Navy]

Idiot! They deported thousands of people to southern Soviet, and moved in some russians instead.

Abbyy is an first-class idiot.

[Abbyy]

Also I would like to attract your attention to the following: those three - Lituania, Estonia ad Latvia were all occupied at same time and now they all have big Russian population. But we almost don't have any problems with Lituania while two other continuously trying to invent something new to spit at our face.

[Navy]

I guess that you are russian. Right? rofl

[Marmot1]

Also I would like to attract your attention to the following: those three - Lituania, Estonia ad Latvia were all occupied at same time and now they all have big Russian population. But we almost don't have any problems with Lituania while two other continuously trying to invent something new to spit at our face.
So it is forbiden to spit in face of ocupant??? Don't forged that this russian population in those countries is not native population but it was settled there without their consent...

[Abbyy]

Idiot! They deported thousands of people to southern Soviet, and moved in some russians instead.

Abbyy is an first-class idiot.

No, we deported not so much people both in relative and absolute numbers. Practically all of them returned after Stslin death.

[Abbyy]

Also I would like to attract your attention to the following: those three - Lituania, Estonia ad Latvia were all occupied at same time and now they all have big Russian population. But we almost don't have any problems with Lituania while two other continuously trying to invent something new to spit at our face.
So it is forbiden to spit in face of ocupant??? Don't forged that this russian population in those countries is not native population but it was settled there without their consent...

Should i tell you what happened with native population of both Americas? Or history of Kosovo and Metokhia?

For those Russians who were born there it is native country.

[Abbyy]

About those Nazi veterans aka 'freedom fighters' in Baltic countries:


On the eve of Hitler's attack, a large group of Latvians, including several thousand Jews, were deported by the Soviet authorities to Siberia and other parts of Soviet Asia as politically undesirable elements. During the Nazi attack of Latvia a considerable number of Jews also succeeded in fleeing to the interior of the Soviet Union; it is estimated that some 75,000 Latvian Jews fell into Nazi hands. Even before the Nazi administration began persecuting the Latvian Jews, they had suffered from anti-Semitic excesses at the hands of the Latvian activists. Chief among these were the members of the Aizsargi paramilitary organization and the Fascist anti-Semitic organization called Perkonkrusts, which later collaborated with the Nazis in the annihilation of the Jewish community. The Einsatzgruppen ("action commandos") played a leading role in the destruction of Latvian Jews, according to information given in their own reports, especially in the report of S.S.-Brigadefuehrer (General) Stahlecker, the commander of Einsatzgruppe A, whose unit operated on the northern Russian front and in the occupied Baltic republics. His account covers the period from the end of June up to Oct. 15, 1941. At the instigation of the Einsatzgruppe, the Latvian auxiliary police carried out a pogrom against the Jews in Riga. All synagogues were destroyed and 400 Jews were killed. According to Stahlecker's report the number of Jews killed in mass executions by Einsatzgruppe A by the end of October 1941 in Riga, Jelgava (Mitau), Liepaja, Valmiera, and Daugavpils totaled 30,025, and by the end of December 1941, 35,238 Latvian Jews had been killed; 2,500 Jews remained in the Riga ghetto and 950 in the Daugavpils ghetto. At the end of 1941 and the beginning of 1942, Jews deported from Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, and other German-occupied countries began arriving in Latvia. Some 15,000 "Reich Jews" were settled in several streets of the liquidated "greater Riga ghetto." Many transports were taken straight from the Riga railroad station to execution sites in the Rumbuli and Bikernieks forests near Riga, and elsewhere. In 1942 about 800 Jews from Kaunas ghetto were brought to Riga and some of them participated in the underground organization in the Riga ghetto.

Abstract: those barbaric Russians deported some Jews to Siberia where most of them survived while civilized Latvians just executed almost all them who were in Lativa.


The nucleus of Latvian Jewry was formed by the Jews of Livonia (Livland) and Courland, the two principalities on the coast of the Baltic Sea which were incorporated within the Russian Empire during the 18th century. Livonia, with the city of Riga, passed to Russia from Sweden in 1721. Courland, formerly an autonomous duchy, was incorporated into Russia as a province in 1795.


Now about Estonia


During the German occupation, Estonia was included in the Reich Commissariat Ostland, a German civilian administration which included the Baltic states and western Belorussia. From early on, the Germans subjected Estonian Jews to harsh measures including confiscation of property and forcing them to wear yellow badges identifying them as Jews. These measures were only temporary as the Nazis prepared to murder all Estonian Jews. German SS and police units, together with Estonian auxiliaries, massacred the Jews of Estonia by the end of 1941. No ghettos were created in Estonia during the German occupation.


Well, i don't try to say that Soviet Union dealed with Jews excellent but those quotes directed against those 'freeedom fighters' in Baltic countries

[Abbyy]

And for Poland folks who can read Russian. The rest can use online translator on altavista.


...Эстония существовала в течение 25 лет между двумя мировыми войнами. А до этого Эстонии не существовало никогда! Эстонская нация возникла в 19 веке благодаря доброте русского правительства в российской губернии. Великое Княжество Финляндское же было отдельным государством, находящимся с Россией в династической унии, имело свою конституцию и парламент. Русский Царь Александр Второй дал финнам возможность использовать их язык в делопроизводстве и финны до сих пор благодарны Русскому Царю. А эстонцы забыли это, а лишь переносят на Россию преступления большевистских банд, не бывших русскими по своей сути. Кстати, город Тарту раньше назывался Юрьев и основал его Русский князь Ярослав Мудрый. Это к тому, что эта территория - исконно русская...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Have that in mind. I'd say anyone who killed russians during the war helped saving the rest of Europe from communist rule.

IMHO Poland under communist rule was better than Poland under Nazi rule. Commies at least didn't killed 6 milions of our citizens..

[UkrainianAmerican]

[quote]During the German occupation, Estonia was included in the Reich Commissariat Ostland, a German civilian administration which included the Baltic states and western Belorussia. From early on, the Germans subjected Estonian Jews to harsh measures including confiscation of property and forcing them to wear yellow badges identifying them as Jews. These measures were only temporary as the Nazis prepared to murder all Estonian Jews. German SS and police units, together with Estonian auxiliaries, massacred the Jews of Estonia by the end of 1941. No ghettos were created in Estonia during the German occupation.


Such heroic Nazis, those estonians were :roll:

[Marmot1]

[quote]During the German occupation, Estonia was included in the Reich Commissariat Ostland, a German civilian administration which included the Baltic states and western Belorussia. From early on, the Germans subjected Estonian Jews to harsh measures including confiscation of property and forcing them to wear yellow badges identifying them as Jews. These measures were only temporary as the Nazis prepared to murder all Estonian Jews. German SS and police units, together with Estonian auxiliaries, massacred the Jews of Estonia by the end of 1941. No ghettos were created in Estonia during the German occupation.


Such heroic Nazis, those estonians were :roll:

German, German, German... where is something about Estonian Wafen SS division??? Since mentioned monument is for them not fot eizatskomandos.... (And AFAIK einzatskomandos were part of Algemaine SS not Waffen SS...)

[CRAZY MERC]

To Thor:
You better watch what are you saying Sweedish moron

[Navy]

Crazy merc: Watch your language!

[UkrainianAmerican]

Crazy merc: Watch your language!
STFU :lol:

[CRAZY MERC]

To Navy: GFY

[mack pl]

yeah,another nice discussion :roll:

"lock or not to lock, this is a question"

regards all

[Navy]

Yeah i know. Our "russian friends" always seem to loose their manner. Some of this guys remember me of the no1 idiot in the world: mr. permskiiomon

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah i know. Our "russian friends" always seem to loose their manner. Some of this guys remember me of the no1 idiot in the world: mr. permskiiomon
Navy, learn how to read for godsakes!
First, I said I ALMOST understand why Stalin did what he did. Secondly I didn't see you condemning Estonia at ALL, so bug off.

[Denat]

Have that in mind. I'd say anyone who killed russians during the war helped saving the rest of Europe from communist rule.

IMHO Poland under communist rule was better than Poland under Nazi rule. Commies at least didn't killed 6 milions of our citizens..

Nah, the commies didn't kill anyone, they were just fine :cantbeli:

In 1940 soviet NKVD executed in Katyń, Charkov, Miednoje etc. more than 10,000 of polish officers, policeman and border guards taken as POW after the infamous, shameful atack conducted on 17 September 1939 by the Red Army on the rear of polish armed forces which were than defending themselfs from the german invasion. Hundreds of thousands of polish civilian population from soviet-occupied eastern Poland were deported to Siberia or Kasahstan in severe conditions, lacking food and water, in trains normaly used for transport of animals. Many of them didn't survive the journey or died there. After the WWII hundreds and thousands of Poles were imprisoned, send to soviet Gulag camps or executed by the communists only because they wanted our Fatherland to be free and independent from the soviet rule. During the time of martial law 1981-1983 the communists were killing innocent people on the streets, so as they did in 1956 or 1970. Do you still believe that the communism was better than nazism? Do you believe that there is any difference between evil of nasism and evil of communism?
If you still believe so than just tell it to the families of:
- those executed in Katyń,
- those arrested and killed by soviet NKVD,
- those deported to Siberia and Kasahstan,
- those of them who didn't survived the deportation,
- those known and unknown heroes imprisoned, sent to soviet Gulag camps, tortured, humiliated and executed for their devotion to POLAND
and to the Cause of Freedom,
- those killed on the streets of Poznań and Trójmiasto,
- those protesting miners killed in Wujek and Manifest Lipcowy and other victims of martial law,
- and many, many more polish victims of communism . . .

[Herrmannek]

Commies were much worse because they divided nation and cripled its spirit... After nazis we rebild our country in 8 years, after commies we will need half century...

[CRAZY MERC]

Navy you are No 2.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Commies were much worse because they divided nation and cripled its spirit... After nazis we rebild our country in 8 years, after commies we will need half century...
Yeah, how would you react if Putin started building monuments to NKVd and stuff?

[Herrmannek]

Commies were much worse because they divided nation and cripled its spirit... After nazis we rebild our country in 8 years, after commies we will need half century...
Yeah, how would you react if Putin started building monuments to NKVd and stuff?

You know I haven't good opinion about Putin* :) so I wouldn't be suprised....

At least better than about Yeltzin :)

[Airborneranger4israel]

There is a very big problem. Those SS units were not only units who fought alongside the german SS against the Rusians, but in the first place, they were the "Einsatzgruppen", the mobile killing units who murdered the jewish population in the East. They were "so good" in killing those innocent people that the German Einsatzgruppen didn't have to do a thing... Then they were used as camp-guards and participated in destroying the jewish polulation of the Warsaw-ghetto.
First they killed all the Jewish population, their own neighbours, in mass graves. See this link:http://www.olokaustos.org/geo/altro/liepaja/liepaja.htm

Click on the picture and then go further(immagini constitutivi) those are the "great hero's" who became the Latvian SS for whom a monument is to erected.
Do you think that those mass-murderers are worthy to erect a monument?
I don't speak of the normal Waffen-SS who fought bravely for Germany and thought that they were right, like WITTMANN M. etc. I'm speaking here of cruel Latvian mass-murderers! Their sole goal was to kill the Jewish polulation of Europe.

exactly! we are not talking about regular soldiers. These people were specialized for the task of murdering masses of civillians. I think it would be more appropriate if they put some sort of memorial at a private cemetary instead of making a public display that could encourage the current rise of anti-semitism in europe.

[Navy]

LOL! Do YOU even know what a semite is?

:petting:

[UkrainianAmerican]

LOL! Do YOU even know what a semite is?

:petting:
here we go again!
Semite could be a Jew or an Arab.
Anti-semit= Jew Hater.

[Navy]

And what do u call an arab-hater?

[Airborneranger4israel]

And what do u call an arab-hater?

yes a semite technically is person who is from an arabic region or somtimes loosly used for jews.

I used the pharase because it is the most common term used to described racisim and violent acts targeted at the jews.

[American Patriot]

Jews are so dramatic.. Anti-semite this, anti-semite that. ;)

[RomanS]

Let them build whatever they want. If Russia, or Russians seriously give a fukc what Estonians doing in their ****hole, I will be surpriced.

They were owned, never been a power, will be owned , sukcin Euro's cocks, and we should take some SS monument seriously?
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Same with Poland, and other little ones in that area.

We don't care, and never will what they all think about us. They were all OWNED, and I understand it is hard to admit it.



Note * remember kids, when you start bashing Russia, be prepared for an answer*

[EvanL]

Let them build whatever they want. If Russia, or Russians seriously give a fukc what Estonians doing in their ****hole, I will be surpriced.

They were owned, never been a power, will be owned , sukcin Euro's cocks, and we should take some SS monument seriously?
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Same with Poland, and other little ones in that area.

We don't care, and never will what they all think about us. They were all OWNED, and I understand it is hard to admit it.



Note * remember kids, when you start bashing Russia, be prepared for an answer*
If anybody really cared enough to seriously bash russia. All they would have to do is bring up something about the russian economy.

[Abbyy]

If anybody really cared enough to seriously bash russia. All they would have to do is bring up something about the russian economy.

I see during my absence discussion went completely wrong way. First of all i'll report to Hood some pointless insults you produced here. I'm tired of this stuff.

At second i recommend you to return to topic: SS reunion in Baltic countries. No matter how bad was Soviet Union we're discussing should be honored SS troops who killed whole jews population in Baltic countries or not.

[Russian Texan]

I can't believe I am saying that, but I like RA proposition: Russia should build a monument to NKVD. That would be a very symmetrical response and a funny one too :lol:
Although I wonder what would people who are defending Estonia's right to SS monument will say then....

EvanLloyd, darling, before you point to Russia's economy problems, I suggest looking at US and Canada's situation.
You know that famous clock in NY that shows national debt? Last month it was upwards of $7 trillion. Oh, and it also increases, on average, by $1.7bill a day...
Canada's national debt is somewhere around $600 billion.

Russian Federation national debt, two month ago, was $185 bill. That $185 billion are compiled mostly out of "private" debts. Lets say a Russian businessman goes to some foreign bank, takes out a loan and "forgets" to return it...the amount of loan goes towards Russia's national debt.

So you see, Russia is living, almost, within its means while US and Canada are living on loans...
The thing is that sooner or later creditors will start calling.

[Abbyy]

Actually Texan made good point because you said that not all SS troops were involved in massacre.

Ok, not all NKVD members were part of terror. NKVD actually also had tasks at these times which FBI and some depts of CIA for example have today.

[786mine]

It's like building monument to Adolf in Germany.

No.. it is something diferent since those ppl (estonians) were not nazis, they were estonian nationalists who served in german army to fight against ocupants (remember estonia was invaded and incorporated into SU in 1940 and this is diference.

if they were figthing with Nazis they are nazis,
so they making monument to Nazis
what next monument to Adolf cause he was good guy?
crap.
They have exactly the same right to honour their dead and the courage of their soldiers as anyone else.

Well said. It's their country and its THEIR choice who to honor. Why should anyone care who they honor, when we don't want anyone else to tell us who we should not honor?

[Abbyy]

Well said. It's their country and its THEIR choice who to honor. Why should anyone care who they honor, when we don't want anyone else to tell us who we should not honor?

I didn't notice any memorials to Nazi soldiers in Germany.

Actually i think that i care about it only because Soviet army veterans, old people, who live in Baltic countries now brought to prison while SS veterans building their memorials in cities.

[16 OBr SpN]

Unfortunately I see some people here whose Russia-phobia is going way above the level of common sense.

SS was a criminal organization, and it doesn't matter whether they operated against Russia, or any other countries and nationalitites.

I remember seeing an outrage right here on the forum, when people published pictures of dececrated cemeteries in France.
Guess what... they drew the same swastikas that Estonians wear during their parades of "freedom fighters"!

In the case of France, I don't remember anybody saying "It's their country, and their choice of whom to honor".

Those people who think there is a difference are idiots!
A swastika is still a swastika. I don't think I should be explaining what that symbol means to millions of those who fought, died, and went through the horros of concentration camps!

Fock those Nazi scumbags! I don't care if they are Estonians, Germans, Russians, etc.

Regards,
16 OBr SpN

[Marmot1]

Well said. It's their country and its THEIR choice who to honor. Why should anyone care who they honor, when we don't want anyone else to tell us who we should not honor?

I didn't notice any memorials to Nazi soldiers in Germany.

Actually i think that i care about it only because Soviet army veterans, old people, who live in Baltic countries now brought to prison while SS veterans building their memorials in cities.
Don't forget that many of those so called veterans were guilty for atrocities to civilans and oposition... As for building NKVD memorials... well you have already lot of Stalin memorials, you have lot of Dzierzynski memorials and so on and so on so one more would not change situation since russia is full of memorials of war criminals and murderers... During soviet era one Dzierzynski monument was even erected in Warsaw... It was first one to be destroyed after comunist regime colapsed... So as long as you in russia honour murderers and war criminals you do not have moral right to say to other nations who they can honour.

And for Permski... you have ben OWNED too several times...

http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/conflicts/Pics/Batory%20at%20Pskow.jpg
Pskov

1577-1582 War with Muscovy
Batory now turned East, where Ivan IV (the terrible) had taken advantage of the Gdansk rebellion and invaded Livonia. By the autumn of 1577 he had captured most of it, except Riga and Rewel. Although Sweden assisted Poland in capturing Weden (October 1578) they would not agree to a formal alliance, preferring to await, and hopefully profit from, any outcome.

In 1579 Batory declared war and with 22,000 men targeted Polock for capture . His plan was to drive a wedge between Muscovy and Livonia. He reached Polock on the 11th of August and took it by the end of the month. Batory victoriously returned to Wilno having regained a region lost to Muscovy during the reign of Zygmunt August.

In 1580 larger forces were gathered (29,000), targeting Wielkie Luki, a strategic stronghold. A smaller diversionary force was sent to Smolensk, while the main army reached Wielkie Luki on 26th August, storming it on 4th September.
The following year Batory had to give up his plan to strike directly at Moscow due to the lack of allocated funds. Instead, with 31,000 men he marched on Pskov, a near impregnable fortress with a strong garrison. Initial successes were finally repulsed and the siege became a blockade. In the terrible winter of 1581-2 the army would have mutinied without the iron will of the Chancellor Zamojski. In 1582 Ivan surrendered the whole of Livonia and Polock in return for the lands occupied by Batory. He had lost some 300,000 men, with the Poles capturing 40,000. During the campaigns independent Polish detachments had roamed deep into enemy territory causing havoc and directly threatening the Tsar.




1610-1619 War with Muscovy
After the death of Ivan the Terrible Muscovy was in turmoil with the arrival of various false Demetrius'. Significant numbers of Polish adventurers were recruited by the second false Demetrius. However the Commonwealth did not involve itself until Prince Vasili Szujski became Tsar. It was Szujski who in the 1606 coup instigated the massacre of 500 Poles in Moscow, he also signed an alliance with Sweden in February 1609 and 5,000 Swedish troops joined the Muscovite army. This was a threat that Poland could not ignore and Hetman Zolkiewski left with 13,000 troops intending to march directly on Moscow. He was however overruled by Zygmunt who wanted to besiege the powerful fortress at Smolensk. A combined 30-40,000 Muscovite-Swedish army was sent to relieve Smolensk, but they were decisively defeated by Zolkiewski's 5,000 force at Kluszyn (Klushino) (4th July 1610) and Szujski was removed by a court rebellion and the Poles moved to Moscow unopposed.

Zolkiewski entered Moscow and his conciliatory attitude enabled Zygmunt's son Wladyslaw to be elected Tsar. However Zygmunt did not feel bound by Zolkiewski's agreements with Moscow and Zolkiewski returned to Poland in October 1610 leaving a garrison in Moscow. The view of the Muscovites turned against the foreign intruders and in March 1611 they attacked the garrison and burned three quarters of the city, forcing the Poles to take refuge in the Kremlin where they endured a nineteen month siege. In June 1611 Smolensk capitulated to the Poles. But Zygmunt's poorly organised relief of the Moscow garrison failed to reach them and they were starved into surrender. The overall campaign was a failure, though the Smolensk and Seversk regions, lost since the 16th century, were regained.

http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/conflicts/conf04.htmhttp://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/conflicts/conf04.htm

MAP (http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/spirals/s-map.htm)



Polish-Soviet war
In the Polish-Soviet war 1919-1921 military force proved the determinant of Poland's frontiers in the east, a theater rendered chaotic by the repercussions of the Russian revolutions and civil war.

Jozef Pilsudski envisioned a new federation with Lithuania and Polish domination of western Ukraine, centered at Kiev, forming a Polish-led East European confederation to block Russian imperialism.

Lenin, leader of the new communist government of Russia, saw Poland as the bridge over which communism would pass into the labor class of a disorganized postwar Germany.

Fighting started in 1919, when Polish self-organised military units in an area known as Kresy (Belarus, Western Ukraine and Lithuania) started quarrelling with local communist units and Bolsheviks attacking from east. Eventually Polish forces took over whole area.

When Pilsudski carried out a military thrust into Ukraine in 1920 after a deal made with Symon Petliura, he was met by a Red Army counterattack that drove into Polish territory almost to Warsaw. Although many observers marked Poland for extinction and Bolshevization, Pilsudski halted the Soviet advance before Warsaw (famous Battle of Warsaw or Miracle at Vistula) and resumed the offensive. The Poles were not able to exploit their new advantage fully, however; and the Soviets were more eager to sign a peace treaty. The Soviets offered the Polish delegation as much territory as they wanted; the Poles preferred to sign a compromise (the Peace of Riga) in early 1921 that split the disputed territory in Belorussia and Ukraine between Poland and Soviet Russia. However, Poland agreed on Sovietisation of Belarus and Ukraine.

The treaty avoided ceding historically Polish territory back to the Russians. Nevertheless, numerous Polish minority in Soviet Union, that at first was given two national Polish Soviet Republic, were subsequently deported to Kasakhstan 1934-1938, around 400 000 died from hunger. (See also: genocide)

The Polish-Soviet war heavily influenced Charles De Gaulle, who was a Polish military instructor and even fought in some battles. He and Wladyslaw Sikorski were the only military officers who, basing on experiences of this war, correctly predicted how the next war would look.

It was also important time for Stalin. Many can argue that the final defeat of the Soviet army was caused by Stalin's intrigue. Moreover, in the final stage of the war, he was forced to retreat in panic. Three groups of people, that he met at his way then: Ukrainian peasants, Polish communists, and Polish officers were later subject of persecutions. Ukrainian peasants in millions were starving to death during famine organised by Stalin 1930-1934. Polish communists were decimated, and Polish minority deported to Kazakhstan during Stalin's purges 1934-1938. Polish officers were murdered en masse in the Katyn massacre in 1940.

[Abbyy]

Marmot, my dear, you forgot that we're talking about Estonia not about Russia.

But anyway i'll answer you.

In what atrocities they guilty? In killing couple of collaborationists during wartime? Helping with deportations of few thousands which returned back soon?

Latvians killed whole jews population - 75 000 and they're still guilty in nothing according to you.

In your first two quotes you referenced at so called "смутное время" - time, when Russia was very weak, thorned by civil unrest and many internal problems.

Last post about war in 1920 - you should understand that it is very similar to some aspects to first Chechen war - politicaly motivated and completely unprepared. Unsupported by many on political and military level. Nothing strange that this war was completely unsuccessful.

[ikurinturbiini]

Let them build whatever they want. If Russia, or Russians seriously give a fukc what Estonians doing in their ****hole, I will be surpriced.

They were owned, never been a power, will be owned , sukcin Euro's cocks, and we should take some SS monument seriously?
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

Same with Poland, and other little ones in that area.

We don't care, and never will what they all think about us. They were all OWNED, and I understand it is hard to admit it.



Note * remember kids, when you start bashing Russia, be prepared for an answer*

Time to up the medication, dude...

[radon]

This is about Estonia and not Latvia. Latvia is another issue. But if some of those Estonians did do atrocities that doesent mean all of them did. And ss was not just a small organization to kill civilians , that was a huge army with many different duties.

Maybe a compromise would be good. The estonians build a (another?) monument to the people fighting against occupation before any germans had arrived there. No Waffen-ss , no association to ss , and many people would associate building that monument directly for Adolf hitler.

Let the russians build a monument for something. It is theyr country. They can build whatever they want.

[ikurinturbiini]

Nazi Germany = evil. No ifs, ands or buts.
Soviet Union = evil. No ifs, ands or buts.

Small countries caught between two blood-thirsty dictators will strike a deal with the lesser of the two evils. And folks, Adolf was the smaller of the two evils. Except for Jews, of course, and from the Estonian/Finnish point of view, Jews were a non-problem, insignificant compared to national survival.

Still, an SS monument is a tad tasteless. Why not dedicate the monument simply to all those who fought for an independent and free Estonia. That would include the SS-men but would not emphasize their part.

Naturally, nothing makes East Europeans feel better than giving Russia the finger. I can dig that. But celebrating any part of the Nazi German system is, and always will be, out of line for many. I can dig that as well.

There's a very beautiful and touching Soldatenfriedhof in Rovaniemi, Lapland. It's a memorial for the ordinary German soldiers who fought and died in Northern Finland as our brothers in arms. There were no atrocities, no genocide, no killing of civilians there (well, not from our side, Russians killed entire villages but that's another story). Those men fought our common enemy. Whether there were Nazis among them, I don't know. Probably some. The memorial just serves to remind of their heroism, with no political agenda. I like it like that.

Yes, Permskii, they were owned. Now they're back on their feet, with new friends, and they're looking good. Got a problem with that (too)?

edited for typo

[FDF_Hemppis]

A swastika is still a swastika.

Fock those Nazi scumbags! I don't care if they are Estonians, Germans, Russians, etc.


This brings us to an interesting thing about the Finnish air force. I bet 99% of the forum members don't know that the FAF used a swastika as their symbol long before the world had even heard about Nazis. Swastika has also been regarded as a symbol of luck for centuries before the Nazis. Nazis just took this symbol, and transformed it to something what means death & horror to millions of people, even today.

There were also Finns in the Waffen-SS, and I'm in no way ashamed of that, for many of those returned to Finland after their training was complete. And the ones who stayed, fought in the eastern front against the Soviets. Were they Nazis? Did they fight "for the cause", I think not! Do I think it would be wrong to make a monument to them? No.

"...Where a Finnish SS-man stood, enemy was always defeated."
Order of the day, 11 July 1943
Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler
Read about the here (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/index.htm)

[UkrainianAmerican]

Re Russian Texan:
Since the thread is getting offtopic anyway, I would like to discuss the national debt "problem". It is my understanding that right now Unted States is the best creditor in the world, for it ALWAYS returnes the money borrowed + the interest on time. Hence there are PLENTy of people and institutions who like loaning us some money. So as long as US can continue to maintain a great financial record, there is absolutely nothing to worry about.

[Thor]

I believe there are SS gatherings in Finland to this day. Some ceremonies that are supported by the finnish armed forces.

Besides that there's also a saying that Finland was the only country were jews and germans fought side by side against the same enemy.

[Marmot1]

A swastika is still a swastika.

Fock those Nazi scumbags! I don't care if they are Estonians, Germans, Russians, etc.


This brings us to an interesting thing about the Finnish air force. I bet 99% of the forum members don't know that the FAF used a swastika as their symbol long before the world had even heard about Nazis. Swastika has also been regarded as a symbol of luck for centuries before the Nazis. Nazis just took this symbol, and transformed it to something what means death & horror to millions of people, even today.

There were also Finns in the Waffen-SS, and I'm in no way ashamed of that, for many of those returned to Finland after their training was complete. And the ones who stayed, fought in the eastern front against the Soviets. Were they Nazis? Did they fight "for the cause", I think not! Do I think it would be wrong to make a monument to them? No.

"...Where a Finnish SS-man stood, enemy was always defeated."
Order of the day, 11 July 1943
Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler
Read about the here (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/index.htm)

OFF TOPIC: Some finish units fighted at outskirts of my city... one of finish Armour Aces (Ola Olsen (sp?)) from Viking Division knocked out 5 russian tanks on the road that I drive very often... few yeas ago remains of one of this tanks were still visible near road in bushes, but now someone scraped them when road was reconstructed.

[Abbyy]

This is about Estonia and not Latvia. Latvia is another issue.

Pure luck - Estonia had only 1000 jews before German invasion. :)

[sethen]

They have a right to honor their dead regardless of Jewish politics! :slap:

[Russian Texan]

Like, where....?[/color]

you have lot of Dzierzynski memorials
Location please


During soviet era one Dzierzynski monument was even erected in Warsaw...
Well duh, he was a polack...
You have simply erected a monument to one of your own countrymen, what did USSR had to do wit it?

[Herrmannek]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

[Russian Texan]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)

[Herrmannek]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)
To the grave board I would say :)

[mack pl]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)
To the grave board I would say :) p-)

[Russian Texan]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)
To the grave board I would say :)

Indeed, love for your neighbor is a great thing :lol:

[Marmot1]

Like, where....?[/color]
SO you want to say that there is no stalin memorials,no pictures,no monuments...

you have lot of Dzierzynski memorials
Location please

Well for example city named after him...

Dzerzhinsk, Russia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Dzerzhinsk (Дзержинск) is a city of the Nizhny Novgorod Oblast, Russia along the Oka River.

It is named after Felix Dzerzhinsky.

There is a city of Dzyarzhynsk in Belarus (the birthplace of Felix Dzerzhinsky) with the identical Russian name.

and this... From January 1999

Russian State Duma adopted a resolution recommending that Moscow's city government restore a monument to Feliks Dzierzynski (destroyed in 1991-marmot1), founder of the Soviet secret police. For many this is a brutal and unpleasant reminder of the bloody Soviet years, and yet another sign that the communist spirit in Russia is still strong-and growing.


During soviet era one Dzierzynski monument was even erected in Warsaw...
Well duh, he was a polack...
You have simply erected a monument to one of your own countrymen, what did USSR had to do wit it?

To be strict he was rather lithuanian not Pole from lithuanan noble family..., anyway he never had polish citizenship, he had only russian and then soviet. And this monument was erected in 1950 by comunists who were soviet servants... Not to menion that most of them before war lived in russia and identified themself more with russia than with poland, or like Konstantin Rokossovsky (who was apointed miniser of defence of Poland (sic!) were pure blood russians . (Rokossovsky was born in Warsaw but in russan family and never identified himself as Pole untill after war...)

[mack pl]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)
To the grave board I would say :)

Indeed, love for your neighbor is a great thing :lol:
:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

[Herrmannek]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl

[Russian Texan]

[quote="RussianAmerican"]Re Russian Texan:
Since the thread is getting offtopic anyway, I would like to discuss the national debt "problem".
There are whole bunch of people in Washington D.C. who discuss it on a daily basis, I don't think they need two more...

It is my understanding that right now Unted States is the best creditor in the world, for it ALWAYS returnes the money borrowed + the interest on time.
You understanding is waaaayy incorrect

Hence there are PLENTy of people and institutions who like loaning us some money.
I know a guy who is $125K+ in debt and has no equity in anything whatsoever but banks still loan him money, he just knows how to play the game.
/quote]

[Marmot1]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)
To the grave board I would say :)

Indeed, love for your neighbor is a great thing :lol:

Yes we love russians so much that when we hug them we try to do this so hard, as to breake their necks ;) (jk)

[Herrmannek]

Russian Texan everything seems Russians love Poles :), and don't deny that because denial is the first step :) jk

It is impossible not to love Poles when we know that they love us so much ;)
To the grave board I would say :)

Indeed, love for your neighbor is a great thing :lol:

Yes we love russians so much that when we hug them we try to do this so hard, as to breake their necks ;) (jk)

Can't do much about that its 1000 years old tradition :)

[mack pl]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl ;) z serem na słodko są lepsze,ale ruskie były bardziej adekwatne do tematu ;) :lol:

[Herrmannek]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl ;) z serem na słodko są lepsze,ale ruskie były bardziej adekwatne do tematu ;) :lol:

With white chease on sweet? man did you lost your mind...Spicy Ruskies are Best and any sugar crap can't do thing about that....

[mack pl]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl ;) z serem na słodko są lepsze,ale ruskie były bardziej adekwatne do tematu ;) :lol:

With white chease on sweet? man did you lost your mind...Spicy Ruskies are Best and any sugar crap can't do thing about that....co ty wiesz o pierogach?!ty stara dupa jesteś! ;) rofl

ohh,well, I like sweet pierogi :roll:

[Herrmannek]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl ;) z serem na słodko są lepsze,ale ruskie były bardziej adekwatne do tematu ;) :lol:

With white chease on sweet? man did you lost your mind...Spicy Ruskies are Best and any sugar crap can't do thing about that....co ty wiesz o pierogach?!ty stara dupa jesteś! ;) rofl

ohh,well, I like sweet pierogi :roll:

You infidel commie, I wouldn't touch sweet pierogi with 2 metre long stick... :).

[mack pl]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl ;) z serem na słodko są lepsze,ale ruskie były bardziej adekwatne do tematu ;) :lol:

With white chease on sweet? man did you lost your mind...Spicy Ruskies are Best and any sugar crap can't do thing about that....co ty wiesz o pierogach?!ty stara dupa jesteś! ;) rofl

ohh,well, I like sweet pierogi :roll:

You infidel commie, I wouldn't touch sweet pierogi with 2 metre long stick... :).Lock this thread, he insult me :bash:

I LOVE SWEET PIEROGI :hug:

[Marmot1]

:roll: I love Ruskie pierogi :roll: ;) :lol:

rofl ;) z serem na słodko są lepsze,ale ruskie były bardziej adekwatne do tematu ;) :lol:

With white chease on sweet? man did you lost your mind...Spicy Ruskies are Best and any sugar crap can't do thing about that....co ty wiesz o pierogach?!ty stara dupa jesteś! ;) rofl

ohh,well, I like sweet pierogi :roll:

You infidel commie, I wouldn't touch sweet pierogi with 2 metre long stick... :).Lock this thread, he insult me :bash:

I LOVE SWEET PIEROGI :hug:

OK guys back to topic, it is already past dinner p-) (herrmanek-ruskie are the best,with cheese and onyon of course)

[Russian Texan]

No, you are saying that there are, I am just askinmg for locations, you know - facts to back your statement.[/color]

Well for example city named after him...
Dzerzhinsk, Russia
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Dzerzhinsk (Дзержинск) is a city of the Nizhny Novgorod Oblast, Russia along the Oka River.
It is named after Felix Dzerzhinsky.
Yeap, it does exist, founded in 1930, population 267,000. So?

There is a city of Dzyarzhynsk in Belarus (the birthplace of Felix Dzerzhinsky) with the identical Russian name.
What does this have to do with Russia?

and this... From January 1999

Russian State Duma adopted a resolution recommending that Moscow's city government restore a monument to Feliks Dzierzynski (destroyed in 1991-marmot1), founder of the Soviet secret police. For many this is a brutal and unpleasant reminder of the bloody Soviet years, and yet another sign that the communist spirit in Russia is still strong-and growing. [/color]
So why it didn't happen yet?


To be strict he was rather lithuanian not Pole from lithuanan noble family..., anyway he never had polish citizenship, he had only russian and then soviet. And this monument was erected in 1950 by comunists who were soviet servants... Not to menion that most of them before war lived in russia and identified themself more with russia than with poland, or like Konstantin Rokossovsky (who was apointed miniser of defence of Poland (sic!) were pure blood russians . (Rokossovsky was born in Warsaw but in russan family and never identified himself as Pole untill after war...)
Sure he was, genealigical tree please.

[RomanS]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

[mack pl]

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because i have dual citizenship and i make US $ in states :roll:

Permski-sometimes you could think twice before you wrote something :|
regards all

[RomanS]

Permski-sometimes you could think twice before you wrote something :|
regards all

THIS SHOULD BE APPLIED TO EVERYONE ON THE WHOLE BOARD, AND MORE THAN ANYTHING, TO THIS TOPIC BEFORE I CAME HERE

[mack pl]

Permski-sometimes you could think twice before you wrote something :|
regards all

THIS SHOULD BE APPLIED TO THE WHOLE BOARD, AND MORE TO THIS TOPIC BEFORE I CAME HERE
da da :|

[Marmot1]

http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~whtsai/Trip%20to%20Russia/Special%20Topics/C.4%20%20Statues%20or%20Figures%20of%20Important%20Russians/Day%2014%20---%20A%20Stalin%20Statue%20in%20Park%20of%20Arts%20in%20Moscow.JPG

Moscow... :lol:

(large one, so I posted only link...)

[Russian Texan]

http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~whtsai/Trip%20to%20Russia/Special%20Topics/C.4%20%20Statues%20or%20Figures%20of%20Important%20Russians/Day%2014%20---%20A%20Stalin%20Statue%20in%20Park%20of%20Arts%20in%20Moscow.JPG

Moscow...

(large one so I pated only link...)

Look behind the monument, on the right side.
I think this composition conveys rather opposite message from what you'd like to think.

[Marmot1]

http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~whtsai/Trip%20to%20Russia/Special%20Topics/C.4%20%20Statues%20or%20Figures%20of%20Important%20Russians/Day%2014%20---%20A%20Stalin%20Statue%20in%20Park%20of%20Arts%20in%20Moscow.JPG

Moscow...

(large one so I pated only link...)

Look behind the monument, on the right side.
I think this composition conveys rather opposite message from what you'd like to think.

Yeah I see it, but still statue is statue. ;-) I don't have time to dig more , since I have some serious things to do and I don't have to much time today...

[-Max2-]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

I have always heard that Russians were brutal, uneducated and unrespectful people. Since Permski is there, it sounds right...

[mack pl]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

I have always heard that Russians were brutal, uneducated and unrespectful people. Since Permski is there, it sounds right...
Max- its generalization :| I know that not all Russians here are the same like Permskii :|
regards

[RomanS]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

I have always heard that Russians were brutal, uneducated and unrespectful people. Since Permski is there, it sounds right...

I heard that Europe sucks USA's ****, does that mean all those in Europe are cocksuckers?


People keep ignoring my notes.

You can flame me, as much as you want. I don't give a rats ass, its internet. And the last thing I need, is to be sad and upset if some shmock is talking smack about me. Whatever.

But leave Russia out of this. The more you fukcs disrespect Russia, the more I will **** on you. Plain and simple.

[RomanS]

MODS,

read first 3 replies on Page 1, you will know what I MEAN

[Marmot1]

So basicaly you are dennying that Soviet union ocupied this countries BEFORE germany did that???... since this is what I understand from your posts...

As for me there is no diference betwen Nazi Germany and Soviet Union... well maybe there is little one... Germans confessed to their crimes, and do not deny this. Soviets won over Naz Germany and becouse of that expect to be treated as "holly cows" which noone can criticize... indeed 15 yeas ago for what I wrote here I would be half a way to prison now. But now I have nice oportunity to write what I think about Soviet Union and Russia which inherited all leftovers from SU. I don't have a problem with russian people, my only problem is russian policy now and then which basicaly can be described as "Hey we are good and nice guys, you have to love us or we will kill you and don't try to criticize us since we know that we are good even if we killed your entire family and you don't have moral right to criticize us since you asked local thug to protect your family from us and we kicked his ass."

[RomanS]

So basicaly you are dennying that Soviet union ocupied this countries BEFORE germany did that???... since this is what I understand from your posts...

As for me there is no diference betwen Nazi Germany and Soviet Union... well maybe there is little one... Germans confessed to their crimes, and do not deny this. Soviets won over Naz Germany and becouse of that expect to be treated as "holly cows" which noone can criticize... indeed 15 yeas ago for what I wrote here I would be half a way to prison now. But now I have nice oportunity to write what I think about Soviet Union and Russia which inherited all leftovers from SU. I don't have a problem with russian people, my only problem is russian policy now and then which basicaly can be described as "Hey we are good and nice guys, you have to love us or we will kill you and don't try to criticize us since we know that we are good even if we killed your entire family and you don't have moral right to criticize us since you asked local thug to protect your family from us and we kicked his ass."

And do Russian people give a **** what you think, or what your country thinks?


Let me guess.

N O

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

And do Russian people give a **** what you think, or what your country thinks?


Let me guess.

N O

Essential discussion p-) :lol:

[FDF_Hemppis]

So basicaly you are dennying that Soviet union ocupied this countries BEFORE germany did that???... since this is what I understand from your posts...

As for me there is no diference betwen Nazi Germany and Soviet Union... well maybe there is little one... Germans confessed to their crimes, and do not deny this. Soviets won over Naz Germany and becouse of that expect to be treated as "holly cows" which noone can criticize... indeed 15 yeas ago for what I wrote here I would be half a way to prison now. But now I have nice oportunity to write what I think about Soviet Union and Russia which inherited all leftovers from SU. I don't have a problem with russian people, my only problem is russian policy now and then which basicaly can be described as "Hey we are good and nice guys, you have to love us or we will kill you and don't try to criticize us since we know that we are good even if we killed your entire family and you don't have moral right to criticize us since you asked local thug to protect your family from us and we kicked his ass."

And do Russian people give a **** what you think, or what your country thinks?


Let me guess.

N O

[sarcasm mode]
So why are you posting here, then? By responding to Marmot's post, you show that you obviously care.

Behold, the oh-so-powerfull-glorious-noble ruskiiOMON has decided to come down from he's throne, and is talking to us, mere mortals! This is something to be left in the books history.
[/sarcasm mode]

p-)

[Midav]

To the original topic: If they wish to honor the soldiers themselves that fought, I don't see anything wrong with it.

If it will also encompass the ideologies of the SS then it would be stupid to do something like this.

[CPL Trevoga]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

Don't call Poles dill weeds, they happen to be our brothers IMHO.

[-Max2-]

People keep ignoring my notes.

You can flame me, as much as you want. I don't give a rats ass, its internet. And the last thing I need, is to be sad and upset if some shmock is talking smack about me. Whatever.

I have a lot better to do than flame a desillusioned Russian who dreams of Soviet grandeur, you know...

shmock ??


But leave Russia out of this. The more you fukcs disrespect Russia, the more I will **** on you. Plain and simple.

So its OK to bash other countries, but not Russia ? :roll:

[Marmot1]

So basicaly you are dennying that Soviet union ocupied this countries BEFORE germany did that???... since this is what I understand from your posts...

As for me there is no diference betwen Nazi Germany and Soviet Union... well maybe there is little one... Germans confessed to their crimes, and do not deny this. Soviets won over Naz Germany and becouse of that expect to be treated as "holly cows" which noone can criticize... indeed 15 yeas ago for what I wrote here I would be half a way to prison now. But now I have nice oportunity to write what I think about Soviet Union and Russia which inherited all leftovers from SU. I don't have a problem with russian people, my only problem is russian policy now and then which basicaly can be described as "Hey we are good and nice guys, you have to love us or we will kill you and don't try to criticize us since we know that we are good even if we killed your entire family and you don't have moral right to criticize us since you asked local thug to protect your family from us and we kicked his ass."

And do Russian people give a **** what you think, or what your country thinks?


Let me guess.

N O

I think yes since there are huge lines of russians applying for Polish visas near polish Embasy in Moscow , Consulate in Kaliningrad... and other diplomatic missions. :lol:

And when we introduced visas which we had to do, a lot of russians belarusians and ukrainians were very unhappy since they impoted a lot of stuff from poland, even polish farmers were unhappy about visas since rusians were buying everything they produced and often visited poland to buy potato, onyon , and other food as well as furniture, cars, and other stuff... many of them worked in poland and helped their families to survive. It was estimated that over half a milon russian speaking ppl worked in poland. So at least they give a **** about poland.

[RomanS]

So basicaly you are dennying that Soviet union ocupied this countries BEFORE germany did that???... since this is what I understand from your posts...

As for me there is no diference betwen Nazi Germany and Soviet Union... well maybe there is little one... Germans confessed to their crimes, and do not deny this. Soviets won over Naz Germany and becouse of that expect to be treated as "holly cows" which noone can criticize... indeed 15 yeas ago for what I wrote here I would be half a way to prison now. But now I have nice oportunity to write what I think about Soviet Union and Russia which inherited all leftovers from SU. I don't have a problem with russian people, my only problem is russian policy now and then which basicaly can be described as "Hey we are good and nice guys, you have to love us or we will kill you and don't try to criticize us since we know that we are good even if we killed your entire family and you don't have moral right to criticize us since you asked local thug to protect your family from us and we kicked his ass."

And do Russian people give a **** what you think, or what your country thinks?


Let me guess.

N O

I think yes since there are huge lines of russians applying for Polish visas near polish Embasy in Moscow , Consulate in Kaliningrad... and other diplomatic missions. :lol:

Sure there are

[RomanS]

I'm all for opening a memorial to NKVD !

Hell yeah, where do I pitch in my money?

[mack pl]

Hell yeah, where do I pitch in my money?buy ticket to Kwabongo Republic in one way ;)

[RomanS]

Too bad NKVD memorial won't happen anytime soon. Otherwise it would be great to open it right on the border with fuking estonia

[Marmot1]

I'm all for opening a memorial to NKVD !

Hell yeah, where do I pitch in my money?

they do not accept bloody imperialistic $, ;) only rubles :lol:
So first of all you must return to Russia then serve your time in climatic resort on Siberia and after reeducation in gulag you can send your rubles p-)

[Marmot1]

Sure there are

Well polish Embassy doubled their staff over there and 2 new consuletes were opened in russia last year so I think they did it on purpose...

[CPL Trevoga]

I think it's great that Estonians selebrate SS veterans. Those were great people, who saved Europe from communism.
I remember fishing with this old dude from a village of Rubezhevichi, he told me how back in 41 SS troops were shooting all Jews in the village. They did not shoot kids though. They would just break little kids backs with their knees.

Too bad many SS escaped to "civilazied" countries.

[RomanS]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

Don't call Poles dill weeds, they happen to be our brothers IMHO.

Who's brothers?

Russians? hell no!

[CPL Trevoga]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

Don't call Poles dill weeds, they happen to be our brothers IMHO.

Who's brothers?

Russians? hell no!

I guess you never drank vodka with Poles.

[Herrmannek]

Don't call Poles dill weeds, they happen to be our brothers IMHO.

Who's brothers?

Russians? hell no!

Blessed ignorance :)...In your fight against that small nonimportant countries you forgot that people gives **** about that, esspecialy Russians. Do you know how many russian speaking people is studing on our Universities? Do you know that most of polish & russian scientists cooperate closely on equal terms, our companies make buisnesses, etc. Stop dreaming Permskii, Russia isn't special nor ideal, and most of people there and here gives **** if Russia is still world power or not or if Poland is not important country not worth to cooperate with...

[mack pl]

My Russian brothers

Why argue here with poles and other dill weeds?

They were always small, less powerful, less important, and more than anything LESS GREAT.

Let them beat the dead horse as much as they like. Communism is dead, and there is nothing to it.

Russia is getting on her feet, and soon will be the power of the continents on the east side.

I just hope it won't start another colder war between US and Russia, because others don't matter.

Don't call Poles dill weeds, they happen to be our brothers IMHO.

Who's brothers?

Russians? hell no!

I guess you never drank vodka with Poles. p-)

[CPL Trevoga]

OMON,

Sometimes it's hard to tell where Poland ends and Russia begins. Until you've lived in a place that's has completely different culture, like States, you don't realise how similar Poles and Russian are. May be they not your brothers, but they are mine. Please abstain from calling names, as its insulting to me too.

[Denat]

Behold, the oh-so-powerfull-glorious-noble ruskiiOMON has decided to come down from he's throne, and is talking to us, mere mortals! This is something to be left in the books history.

rofl rofl rofl

OMON,

Sometimes it's hard to tell where Poland ends and Russia begins. Until you've lived in a place that's has completely different culture, like States, you don't realise how similar Poles and Russian are. May be they not your brothers, but they are mine. Please abstain from calling names, as its insulting to me too.
woot :hug:

[RomanS]

Trevoga
they are insulting Russia, i will insult them.

WHo are you to tell me what to do?

Where were you born, and how did you get to the States?

[mack pl]

Where were you born, and how did you get to the States? :lol: freez, Imigration office!!!! do you have green card?!!!!!!

Im happy to know that not all Russians are the same as you :|

regards

[RomanS]

Where were you born, and how did you get to the States? :lol: freez, Imigration office!!!! do you have green card?!!!!!!

Im happy to know that not all Russians are the same as you :|

regards

I hope not all the Poles are the same as Marmot, you and Hermanek. Otherwise, you know the rest .....

[Herrmannek]

Where were you born, and how did you get to the States? :lol: freez, Imigration office!!!! do you have green card?!!!!!!

Im happy to know that not all Russians are the same as you :|

regards

I hope not all the Poles are the same as Marmot, you and Hermanek. Otherwise, you know the rest .....

Permskii why you always count me with your best friends :). What did I to have so high place in your best friends list?

[mack pl]

Where were you born, and how did you get to the States? :lol: freez, Imigration office!!!! do you have green card?!!!!!!

Im happy to know that not all Russians are the same as you :|

regards

I hope not all the Poles are the same as Marmot, you and Hermanek. Otherwise, you know the rest .....
Sorry, but all Poles are so cool as Me,Marmot and Hermannek p-)

[RomanS]

Interesting thought I had in mind.

I am friends with Mikhail Dragunov, and Kalashnikov's family.

They are very pro-Russian.

Lets say Marmot or other Poles would express your thoughts about Russia to them int their face.

Of course they would tell you to fuk yourselves. Would you tell them that they are loosers and flamers too?

Because that is exactly what they would tell you all.

just a thought.

[CPL Trevoga]

Trevoga
they are insulting Russia, i will insult them.

WHo are you to tell me what to do?

Where were you born, and how did you get to the States?

I was born in the USSR, Minsk. Grandparents moved from Rjazan and Petrozavodsk after the war.

I'm not telling you what to do man, I just asked you if you can refreain from insults, that's all. You can say, "**** you Trevoga" or "No problem". It's up to you. It's the Estonians we bashing, not Poles. Estonians served in the SS, not Poles.

I'm pro-Russian too, hell I'm Russian.

[Airborneranger4israel]

hey i can see this is causing a lot of debate so why dosetn somebody put up a poll about weather those SS soldiers in estonia should get a memorial.

Personally i dont think they should but it would be interesting to see a poll.

[mack pl]

Interesting thought I had in mind.
I am friends with Mikhail Dragunov, and Kalashnikov's family.
They are very pro-Russian.
Lets say Marmot or other Poles would express your thoughts about Russia to them int their face.
Of course they would tell you to fuk yourselves. Would you tell them that they are loosers and flamers too?
Because that is exactly what they would tell you all.
just a thought.I guess all ppl who are "pro-Russian" will say to me "fuzk off" If i say something against Russia.You are so smart ;)

well, i will not talking with you more,coz its very late in Poland ;) :)

regards my russian slavic cousin ;)

[Marmot1]

Interesting thought I had in mind.

I am friends with Mikhail Dragunov, and Kalashnikov's family.

They are very pro-Russian.

Lets say Marmot or other Poles would express your thoughts about Russia to them int their face.

Of course they would tell you to fuk yourselves. Would you tell them that they are loosers and flamers too?

Because that is exactly what they would tell you all.

just a thought.

OK, OK, YOU know some people, so what I have to be afraid of you?

Do I like russian ppl PEOPLE-YES
Russian culture-YES
Do I have russian friends-YES
Do I have respect to ordinary russian soldiers sacrifice in WW2-Yes
Do I like your weapons-Yes
to russian imperial policy-NO

[Elmo]

Dragunov? Kalashnikov? Who are they?

I know Makarov, Krutov and Larionov...what a line.

[Marmot1]

Dragunov? Kalashnikov? Who are they?

I know Makarov, Krutov and Larionov...what a line.

Well Actually I know A. A. Makarov too p-)

[RomanS]

I know Makarov as well ;)

[Herrmannek]

Wait few years you will praise you know ME :)

[Abbyy]

http://www.cis.nctu.edu.tw/~whtsai/Trip%20to%20Russia/Special%20Topics/C.4%20%20Statues%20or%20Figures%20of%20Important%20Russians/Day%2014%20---%20A%20Stalin%20Statue%20in%20Park%20of%20Arts%20in%20Moscow.JPG

Moscow... :lol:

(large one, so I posted only link...)

Argh Marmot, you even don't know how stupid you looks after this photo. This is park near center of Moscow with sculptures free exhibition. Here were installed some monuments from good old Soviet times: Lenin, Stalin, Dzherzhinski. They'e staying among diffrent abstract modern sculptures in beautiful park. I went here with my wife sometimes (when she weren't my wife yet :) )

[Herrmannek]

Argh Marmot, you even don't know how stupid you looks after this photo. This is park near center of Moscow with sculptures free exhibition. Here were installed some monuments from good old Soviet times: Lenin, Stalin, Dzherzhinski. They'e staying among diffrent abstract modern sculptures in beautiful park. I went here with my wife sometimes (when she weren't my wife yet :) )

Yup Marmot you Fuccked Up :), but problem is some here still doesn't think those sculptures are abstarct art :)

[Marmot1]

Argh Marmot, you even don't know how stupid you looks after this photo. This is park near center of Moscow with sculptures free exhibition. Here were installed some monuments from good old Soviet times: Lenin, Stalin, Dzherzhinski. They'e staying among diffrent abstract modern sculptures in beautiful park. I went here with my wife sometimes (when she weren't my wife yet :) )

Yup Marmot you Fuccked Up :), but problem is some here still doesn't think those sculptures are abstarct art :)
No I did not ****ed up. I know where it was taken, but still you have Stalin, and Dzierzynski statues in your capital... no matter if they are in one park or ascattered around whole city... Imagine germans having in Berlin park where you have statues of Hitler, Goebels, Goering, Himmler in a nice lovelly park...

[ikurinturbiini]

People keep ignoring my notes.

No! Really? Gee, I wonder why.


But leave Russia out of this. The more you fukcs disrespect Russia, the more I will **** on you. Plain and simple.

Yeah. Let's talk about European military history and politics but let's not drag Russia into the conversation. Nice one.

Permskii, you're the best! woot

[Abbyy]

Argh Marmot, you even don't know how stupid you looks after this photo. This is park near center of Moscow with sculptures free exhibition. Here were installed some monuments from good old Soviet times: Lenin, Stalin, Dzherzhinski. They'e staying among diffrent abstract modern sculptures in beautiful park. I went here with my wife sometimes (when she weren't my wife yet :) )

Yup Marmot you Fuccked Up :), but problem is some here still doesn't think those sculptures are abstarct art :)
No I did not f*** up. I know where it was taken, but still you have Stalin, and Dzierzynski statues in your capital... no matter if they are in one park or ascattered around whole city... Imagine germans having in Berlin park where you have statues of Hitler, Goebels, Goering, Himmler in a nice lovelly park...

This will be very entertaining place but i doubt because it will become favorite new-nazi meeting place ;) Contrary to our park, which only contains shadows of the past :)

Actually you should admit that you're just anti-Russian. You're not neutral as you said before.

[mack pl]

you just have some ANTI-RUSSIAN AGENDA in mind. .OMG :cantbeli: bad Marmot :bash:

rofl

[Marmot1]

you just have some ANTI-RUSSIAN AGENDA in mind. .OMG :cantbeli: bad Marmot :bash:

rofl

I'm EeeeeeeeeVIL rofl

Yeah I hate rusians so much that I even hired 3 of them last year. And in my Evilnes I even paid them for their work 300$ per month comparing to polish minimal salary 190$ I was very unfair for them not to mention that they had food and housing for free... ... and sometimes even beer.

I am so Evillll.... rofl

[mack pl]

yes, you are Marmot ;)

[Abbyy]

190$ is nothing. Your country is very poor comparing to Russia. :) Truly speaking i do not understand how to live for 190$ here.

I have 1500$ per month and i cannot afford myself a good car :)

[Herrmannek]

190$ is nothing. Your country is very poor comparing to Russia. :) Truly speaking i do not understand how to live for 190$ here.

I have 1500$ per month and i cannot afford myself a good car :)
Here means where? And don't forget that those are minimal pays allowed by law not a mean salary...

[Abbyy]

190$ is nothing. Your country is very poor comparing to Russia. :) Truly speaking i do not understand how to live for 190$ here.

I have 1500$ per month and i cannot afford myself a good car :)
Here means where? And don't forget that those are minimal pays allowed by law not a mean salary...

"Here" means Moscow. Our official minimal salary is about 50$ :) And some people get it here. This gives to some right to speak how Russian people is poor. But ofiicial doesn't mean real. Remember it :)

[Herrmannek]

190$ is nothing. Your country is very poor comparing to Russia. :) Truly speaking i do not understand how to live for 190$ here.

I have 1500$ per month and i cannot afford myself a good car :)
Here means where? And don't forget that those are minimal pays allowed by law not a mean salary...

"Here" means Moscow. Our official minimal salary is about 50$ :) And some people get it here. This gives to some right to speak how Russian people is poor. But ofiicial doesn't mean real. Remember it :)

Moscow isn't whole Russia... Moscow case should be considered in terms of statistical error :)

[Marmot1]

190$ is nothing. Your country is very poor comparing to Russia. :) Truly speaking i do not understand how to live for 190$ here.

I have 1500$ per month and i cannot afford myself a good car :)
Here means where? And don't forget that those are minimal pays allowed by law not a mean salary...

"Here" means Moscow. Our official minimal salary is about 50$ :) And some people get it here. This gives to some right to speak how Russian people is poor. But ofiicial doesn't mean real. Remember it :)

He he my country is poor comparing to russia??? sorry dude but 190$ comparing to 50$ in russia makes your country poor.

Avarage salary in poland is 550$ or even higher (I must check official statistics)

Good to you that you earn so much,what kind of job you do? But in poland it is not unusual... to earn 1000 or more... I have only part time job and I make 250$ easily. My brother and his wife make 2500$ + car + phone.

And if my country is so poor so why I hear all the times that russian soldiers are not getting paid for months that in some regions in Siberia ppl did not receive their salary for over year... why russians are coming to poland to work not poles to russia???

It is cool to be proud from your country but facts are oposite to your statement...


Russia:
Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 67.66 years
male: 62.46 years
female: 73.11 years (2003 est.)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 19.51 deaths/1,000 live births

GDP - per capita - $9,700 (2002 est.)

purchasing power parity - $1.409 trillion (2002 est.)


Poland:

Life expectancy at birth:
total population: 73.91 years
male: 69.77 years
female: 78.28 years (2003 est.)

Infant mortality rate:
total: 8.95 deaths/1,000 live births

GDP - per capita: - $9,700 (2002 est.)

purchasing power parity - $373.2 billion (2002 est.) (poland has 3,5 times smaller population so multiply it 3,5 tumes before comaring)

[Denat]

Contrary to our park, which only contains shadows of the past :)
Yeah,
I'm watching your shadows of the past on TV every year during the celebrations of the 1st May in Moscow. Although quite aged and wearing old soviet-era uniforms, those shadows are looking surprisingly well and are even keeping some photos of Josef Stalin and red banners in their old, cold hands. Not to mention plenty of young people marching witch them in this crowd of "shadows" and shouting soviet slogans.
Yeah, true shadows of the past ;)
Only shadows and dust Maximus, only shadows and dust . . .

[CPL Trevoga]

No I did not f*** up. I know where it was taken, but still you have Stalin, and Dzierzynski statues in your capital... no matter if they are in one park or ascattered around whole city... Imagine germans having in Berlin park where you have statues of Hitler, Goebels, Goering, Himmler in a nice lovelly park...

Stalin, Dzierzynski and all are part of Russian history, they were products of their time. They did what they had to do, but they can not be compared to Hitler and Nazis. Nazis wanted to eliminate race of people (Jews) and enslave (Slavic people), unlike Stalin who killed people who he perceived to be a thereat to his power. May be if you're not a Jew or Slavic, Hitler might not look bad, but to me he is beyond evil. Germans would never have statues of Nazis, for a simple reason that they lost. Nobody likes loosers. Evil loosers.

[Herrmannek]

No I did not f*** up. I know where it was taken, but still you have Stalin, and Dzierzynski statues in your capital... no matter if they are in one park or ascattered around whole city... Imagine germans having in Berlin park where you have statues of Hitler, Goebels, Goering, Himmler in a nice lovelly park...

Stalin, Dzierzynski and all are part of Russian history, they were products of their time. They did what they had to do, but they can not be compared to Hitler and Nazis. Nazis wanted to eliminate race of people (Jews) and enslave (Slavic people), unlike Stalin who killed people who he perceived to be a thereat to his power. May be if you're not a Jew or Slavic, Hitler might not look bad, but to me he is beyond evil. Germans would never have statues of Nazis, for a simple reason that they lost. Nobody likes loosers. Evil loosers.

Wrong but not totaly :).
1) Slavs where planed next to go just after Jews, Gypsis, homo******s and retarded. Hitler gaved order to eliminate all Poles even before he ordered same to Jews. He just used well known and optimal computer algorithm "easiest jobs first".


On August 22, 1939, a few days before the official start of World War II, Hitler authorized his commanders, with these infamous words, to kill "without pity or mercy, all men, women, and children of Polish descent or language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space [lebensraum] we need".

Heinrich Himmler echoed Hitler's decree:


"All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles."

2)On other hand I don't care if elimination of milions was lead by madness or cold calculation...Crime is Crime... Goal DOESN'T justifies the means.

[Uncle Sam]

Latvian Nazis (http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/wwii/baltic_nazis/latvia/index.htm)


Resurgence of fascism in the former Soviet Baltic republics of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia has been growing over the past decade. Regretfully, these deplorable actions by the governments and local authorities of the three Baltic States attracted little attention from the international community.

In September of 2003 a number of Latvians and foreign visitors attended the memorial ceremony for the Jewish-Latvian Holocaust victims in the Rumbula forest, where 25,000 Jews were massacred in late 1941 mostly by Latvian police and guards. Just a week later Latvian government unveiled another memorial – this one was dedicated to the memory of Latvian Waffen SS members.

During the same month Latvia managed to pacify its small remaining Jewish population while at the same time making itself feel better about its history of collaborating with Nazi Germany. Two weeks - two memorials: one is to the Holocaust victims and the other one to the Holocaust makers.

The SS memorial was unveiled in the Latvian town of Lestene. The event was attended by the country’s government, religious and military officials. Three military orchestras of the Latvian Defense Ministry provided musical background for commemorating 'accomplishments and sacrifices' of the SS and its Latvian division in the name of Führer and Fatherland.

With the exception of a few Russian and Israeli newspapers the world media remained oblivious to these events and silent.

Surviving members of the Latvian SS legion marched proudly in Lestene, their 'accomplishments' appreciated by their new government. Latvian SS exterminated tens of thousands of Jews, Slavs and fellow Latvians sixty years ago and today Latvian government considers the SS men war veterans, pays them military pensions, erects monuments in their name and celebrates their cause and bloody deeds with state-sponsored parades.

Schoolchildren in Latvia learn that the SS heroically defended their country against Bolshevik hordes and sought an appropriate place for the Latvian uberman in the bright future of the Thousand Year Reich.

Unable to accept the responsibility for its Nazi past Latvia is seeking to rewrite the bloody pages of its history. This is done quietly and gradually. The three military orchestras playing at the SS memorial ceremony in Latvia this September had to keep down their fortissimo so not to disturb the sleeping public opinion of the nations that sacrificed millions of lives to defeat the monster of fascism.

Today Latvia is not just rewriting its own history but ours as well. We make this possible by ignoring the SS marching in Lestene; by trying hard not to notice the memorials to Nazi murderers popping up here and there in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia; by closing our ears so not to hear the SS legions marching in Riga and Tallinn.

In 1946 the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg adjudged Waffen SS to be a criminal organization. Since 1997 thousands SS criminals living in the US, UK, Latvia and other countries collected a monthly military pension paid by Germany and by national governments, as is the case with Latvia.

This revolting historical revisionism rearing its ugly head with our silent approval is an insult to the memories of millions who gave their lives to save ours.

Latvia’s attempts at rewriting the history of the Second World War have been a subject of hundreds of news articles, books and public discussions. The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs called Latvia’s revisionist policies in regard to its wartime collaboration with Nazi Germany “one of the worst cases of falsification of history.” 1 A number of countries have to deal with the problem of resurging fascism. What makes Latvian neo-nazism more frightening is the open official support it gets from the Latvian government.

During the war Waffen Schutzstaffel (Waffen SS) formed two divisions consisting of Latvian volunteers – the 15th and 19th Waffen Grenadier Divisions. At the peak of its power the SS grew from four all-German divisions to 41 divisions numbering 900,000 members from all occupied countries, including more than 150,000 volunteers from Latvia - the biggest contribution of SS volunteers of any nation occupied by Germany.

Unlike other volunteer Waffen SS divisions created during the war the Latvian divisions were known for their proficiency in combat and commitment to the standards of Nazism. In 1945, after being decimated by the advancing Soviet army, the remaining elements of the two Latvian SS divisions regrouped under the command of Waffen-Standartenführer Villus Janums for the defense of Berlin. They later surrendered to the Americans at Güterglück near the Elbe River.

In the Spring of 1998 the remainder of this force paraded through the streets of Latvia’s capital carrying banners with swastika and SS insignia. The march was authorized by the Latvian government and attended by the Chief of Staff of the Latvian Armed Forces despite protests from Russia, France and Israel.2

Only two weeks before the Nazi parade in Riga Latvian police brutally dispersed a peaceful demonstration by Russian war veterans. A few days after the Nazi parade in Riga two bombs damaged a synagogue and the Russian embassy in Latvia's capital.

Later same year Russia threatened economic sanctions against Latvia in response to the country’s official support for surging neo-nazism but this threat never materialized.3 Regretfully, Latvia’s official way of dealing with Nazi past remains to be through denial and historical revisionism.

In 1997 Germany revealed that up to 50,000 former SS members worldwide are receiving a monthly pension from the German government. This includes 3,377 Waffen SS men and their dependents in the US. Following this revelation US Rep. Gary L. Ackerman requested a list of the US recipients of these benefits. The list was sent by the German administration to the US Department of Justice but it was not made public as was demanded by various public and religious organizations.4

Among the people who received monthly benefits for SS veterans is the widow of SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich – the architect of the “Final Solution” - and the SS-Untersturmführer Heinz Barth, known in France as l'assassin d'Oradour-sur-Glane and sentenced to life imprisonment by an East German court for massacring hundreds of civilians in the French town of Oradour, qualified to receive a military pension following the reunification of Germany.5

Kazys Ciurinskas, a former member of the Lithuanian SS division accused of killing Russian and Lithuanian Jews and POWs, lived in Indiana since the end of the war. Ciurinskas collected a $540 monthly pension from the German government since 1960 while living in the US and being a US citizen. In a 1995-97 United States of America v. Kazys Ciurinskas case the US District Court in Indiana stripped Ciurinskas of US citizenship.6

In 1999 Kazys Ciurinskas was deported from the US after he admitted participating in Nazi-sponsored persecution in Lithuania and Belarus in 1941, when Lithuanian SS killed more than 19,000 Jews in these two countries.7 The case of Ciurinskas was one of several such cases in the US involving former Lithuanian SS members, but the number of such cases is a far cry from the number of these war criminals still living in the US.

A large number of former Waffen SS members also reside in the UK enjoying full benefits of the British citizenship and German pension benefits. This includes more than 1,500 members of the Ukrainian SS volunteer division responsible for killing tens of thousands of civilians and POWs in the former Soviet Union and Poland. The UK government has been struggling to extradite suspected Nazis but a 2001 Home Office initiative promised to go ahead with denaturalization and deportation of suspected Nazi war criminals.8 A large number of Ukrainian SS members also escaped to Canada following the end of the war to hide within the large Ukrainian community in that country.

What makes the situation with pension benefits for the Waffen SS members even more repulsive is the fact that the amount of the monthly payments depends on the rank attained while serving in the SS.9 According to the information made public by Germany in 1997, the war benefits for Nazi soldiers totaled $8 billion in 1996 alone and were paid out to 1.1 million veterans and dependents worldwide.10

Under mounting international pressure the German parliament amended the 1950 Federal Benefits Law to prohibit payment of benefits to suspected war criminals. However, the law does not require German authorities to investigate the recipients of these benefits and has no provision for enforcement. This makes possible for thousands of suspected and known war criminals, including those living in the US, UK and Latvia, to continue receiving their SS pensions, even as hundreds of thousands of their surviving victims received no compensation from Germany or received a one-time check for a few hundred dollars for their troubles.

While attending a memorial ceremony for the Jewish-Latvian Holocaust victims in Latvia this September Israel’s Knesset Speaker Ruby Rivlin said: “We will remember their murderers - each and every one of them... We will remember, and we will continue to remind the world, of the greatest crime against humanity; of the criminals who committed it; and of the people who made it possible. We do not, and will not accept the attempt to clear a nation's conscience, by blaming everything that happened here entirely on the Nazi occupation. Latvia, as other young European democracies, is yet to face its true past, the awful truth. The Latvian people have much to answer for. Pardoning the worst of murderers, treating them as heroes, or freedom fighters, allowing them to march proudly on the streets - all that is spitting in the faces of the women, children and babies massacred here.”

The Latvian Parliament Speaker Ingrida Udre responded with tears in her eyes: “We will remember this terrible crime so that it will not be able to repeat itself. We must continue to investigate our role, and we will do so, and emphasize who are the guilty and who were the innocent victims.”11 The next weekend Ingrida Udre spent celebrating the opening of the Latvian Waffen SS cemetery. The ceremony was attended by Latvia’s Culture Minister Inguna Ribena, members of the Parliament, representatives of the Church, and Latvian military officials.12

Rewriting of history and resurgence of fascism is only possible with our silent approval. We don't know, we don't care, we are too busy. Some think Nazism is about killing Jews and that the Second World War was a private brawl between Hitler and Stalin. We like to simplify things.

Some six million Jews were exterminated by the Nazis. More than thirty million Soviets and twenty million Chinese were killed during the war. Over a hundred million people died around the world as the result of fighting, decease and hunger brought about by the Second World War.

The legacy of Nazism is not Holocaust; it's not extermination of Slavs, Gypsies, Chinese, homo******s, mentally ill; it's not the great battles in Kursk, Stalingrad or Normandy. The legacy of Nazism is indiscriminate extermination of human life.

Adopting this view of the Second World War is essential to all of us. Every one of us has political views and personal agendas. We tend to look at the history of the war and try to find some good points about it. Some hate Jews, others hate Russians or Americans.

Look at the photos of executed Soviet POWs, look at the corpses of gassed Jews and Gypsies, look at shots of dead Americans littering the shores of Normandy, look at the gruesome photos of executed Ukrainian villagers. This is indiscriminate extermination of human life and it makes you realize one crucial thing when looking at these horrific images: it could have been you independent of who or where you are and what you believe in.

Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians joined the SS believing the Nazis would liberate them from the Soviet occupation; Finland offered itself as the launching pad of the German invasion of northern USSR believing the Nazis would protect it from its aggressive eastern neighbor; Iraqi government aligned itself with Germany hoping the Nazis would rid Iraq of British control; Ukrainians joined the SS in their hatred of Jews and Bolsheviks.

Millions supported the cause of Nazism driven by their personal reasons, failing to grasp the big picture. In the end millions of them died; but they didn't die soon enough and took tens of millions with them.

We are not about to take on all of the distortions of history. We are here to address one problem at a time and the problem for today is resurgence of fascism in the Baltic States. Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia look forward to joining the European Union. They want to climb on the high horse of EU's imaginary superior morality with which it judges Russians, Americans and the rest of the world.

Governments, like people, join together for two reasons: to survive and to absolve each other of individual responsibility. The EU is willing to take the Baltic States aboard despite their heavy baggage of suppressed problems and hastily rewritten history. Their governments hope that this baggage gets lost in transit. We are here to make sure that it doesn't.

On this page you will find contact information for various government, public and media organizations in the Baltic States and their diplomatic missions around the world. Some of the information may be outdated, but most of it is accurate. The contact information includes mailing addresses, phones, faxes and e-mails. If you feel that another contact should be put on the list, drop me an e-mail.

Democracy has a long way to go in Latvia. Some may question the effectiveness of writing to the Latvian government and media. Effective or not, this is something that needs to be done.

What reaction should be expected in response to our protests? Most probably none that we will hear. A country's misconceptions about its own history cannot be changed overnight, especially since many find such misconception so comfortable to live with.

Are our efforts in vain then? Most definitely not: negative emotions have a tendency to accumulate. Once you put in one's head enough unpleasant things to think about, a conflict is certain to follow sooner or later. Through conflict comes change.

Let's invest five minutes of our time in preserving our collective history and send some bad vibes Latvia's way.

[Uncle Sam]

This is interesting also...HERE (http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/7e65886012f3fb98c3256e390038efae?OpenDocument)

[martinexsquaddie]

Nazi germany :(
or Stalins Russia :(
if you were living in the Baltic states Uncle joe was hardly a good guy
and living behind the iron curtain won't have improved the view that Facism is Bad :roll: .

[MARINO]

Nothing wrong, a monument, in honnour for they fallen people.

[CPL Trevoga]

Nothing wrong, a monument, in honnour for they fallen people.

Fallen murderers and killers. You shouldn't be talking Mr. Franko.

[Marmot1]

Uncle sam your article is about latvia not estionia ;)

Trevoga if you consider all fallen german and axis soldiers murderers and kilers then on the same basis I should consider all russian soldiers murderers too

Want example?:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2977/Image263.jpg
OK. March 1945, Western Poland.
This is barn where 6 Romanian soldiers hided - they were part of romanian army but when romania swithed sides they were treated like POWs by german and when germans retreated simply released them... It was cold, they had only light uniforms, no coats, no arms. During night they hiden in this barn, before morning russians entered and in the morning someone noticed that there are fresh track of military boots leading to barn and called russian patrol to investigate this. When russian came they found 6 unarmed romanians in miserable condition, hungry and thirsty, without food and unarmend... and guess what happened to them... russians lead them to nerby field ordered them to dig graves and executed them with machinegun... then simple left seeking for vodka and ordered locals to burry them. But one of those soldiers survived altrought wounded and menaged to hide in barn again... at evening polish farmer found him and tried to help... but few days later he died becouse of severe wound, before he died he told their story.

That is example of usual procedure adopted by soviet soldiers- murderig raping and stealing. So becouse it should I treat all falen Soviet soldiers as murdereds and killers??? Certanly many of them were murderers and killers but there were also many who were not. The same aply to Estonians.

EDIT: This photo was taken by me 2 weaks ago,the actual barn was resized after war and orginal one is visible to the right, romanians were found upstairs (there are small wooden doors over the gate) and this farmer who tried to help romanians is my relative (He is still alive).

[CPL Trevoga]

Uncle sam your article is about latvia not estionia ;)

Trevoga if you consider all fallen german and axis soldiers murderers and kilers then on the same basis I should consider all russian soldiers murderers too

Want example?:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2977/Image263.jpg
OK. March 1945, Western Poland.
This is barn where 6 Romanian soldiers hided - they were part of romanian army but when romania swithed sides they were treated like POWs by german and when germans retreated simply released them... It was cold, they had only light uniforms, no coats, no arms. During night they hiden in this barn, before morning russians entered and in the morning someone noticed that there are fresh track of military boots leading to barn and called russian patrol to investigate this. When russian came they found 6 unarmed romanians in miserable condition, hungry and thirsty, without food and unarmend... and guess what happened to them... russians lead them to nerby field ordered them to dig graves and executed them with machinegun... then simple left seeking for vodka and ordered locals to burry them. But one of those soldiers survived altrought wounded and menaged to hide in barn again... at evening polish farmer found him and tried to help... but few days later he died becouse of severe wound, before he died he told their story.

That is example of usual procedure adopted by soviet soldiers- murderig raping and stealing. So becouse it should I treat all falen Soviet soldiers as murdereds and killers??? Certanly many of them were murderers and killers but there were also many who were not. The same aply to Estonians.

EDIT: This photo was taken by me 2 weaks ago,the actual barn was resized after war and orginal one is visible to the right, romanians were found upstairs (there are small wooden doors over the gate) and this farmer who tried to help romanians is my relative (He is still alive).

My man, I know all about brutality on both sides, but I got no love for Nazis nor do I feel sorry for anything. Germans treated Russian prisoners and civilians in most brutal way. Eye for an eye. We Russians did not attack Germans, they attacked us. As Bible says, "You live by the sword, you die by the sword."

[/McH\]

Uncle sam your article is about latvia not estionia ;)

And of course you Ignored the link...

http://www.ln.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/0/7e65886012f3fb98c3256e390038efae?OpenDocument





Involvement of the Estonian SS Legion in War Crimes
in 1941-1945 and the Attempts to Revise the Verdict
of the Nuremberg Tribunal in Estonia



291-13-02-2004


The history of the Estonian SS formations during the World War II is a logical evolution of the history of the Estonian nationalism and collaborationalism.
Since the early 1930s the native fascist movement - Vabadussodolane liits (VAPS) that had been originally established as a union of the Liberation War (1918-1920) veterans (the VAPS movement was modeled on the Lappo fascist movement in Finland) began to rapidly broaden its influence. The VAPS members advocated the abolishment of all the political, economic and cultural rights of national minorities and followed the Nazis Germany. In October 1933 the VAPS-proposed new draft Constitution of Estonia, which was authoritarian in nature and gained 56% of votes at the referendum. Moreover, the movement won the municipal elections in January 1934 (52% of voters in Tallin supported the VAPS). On March 12, 1934 the Government headed by K. Pats imposed a state of emergency and dissolved the Parliament, as well as all the political parties to prevent the VAPS victory in the forthcoming presidential elections. Later the Patriotic Union Party and the "Kaitseliit" (militarized organization "The Defense Union") became the main advocates of the nationalist right-wing ideology in Estonia.

When in autumn of 1939 the Soviet military bases were established in Estonia under the Treaty with the USSR, the activists of these organizations and the VAPS supporters created an illegal Salvation Committee to spy upon the Red Army units for Germany.

When Estonia joined the USSR the German intelligence service strengthened its contacts with them to provoke an armed riot by the time of Germany's attack against the USSR. The USSR public security bodies defeated those plans.

The aggression of Germany against the Soviet Union immediately invigorated the "Kaitseliit" supporters. With the Abwehr and SD assistance the "self-defense units" ("Omakaitse"), which attacked small groups of the Red Army soldiers, killed the Communist Party and Soviet activists and guarded army prisoners, began to be established on the basis of this organization. By November 1, 1941 they carried out 5033 raids, arrested 41 135 persons, 7357 of whom were executed on-site "due to the exercised resistance" (И.Пыхалов. Как порабощали Прибалтику // Спецназ России № 07 (69) июль 2002 г.). The "Omakaitse" activities were generally coordinated by M. Sandberger, commander of the "Einsatzgruppen 1A", SS-Sturmbannfьhrer who was charged with the execution of Jews, communists and Soviet middle and high ranking officials. The "Einsatzgruppen 1A" consisted of approximately one hundred SS, SD and police officers and M. Sandberger noted that without help of Estonian "self-defense units" he would have been unable to accomplish his tasks (Enzyklopzdie des Holocaust, band 1, 1992, s.420.). After the war M. Sandberger was condemned by the United States authorities as a war criminal, found guilty of killing tens of thousands of civilians.

Having occupied the territory of the ESSR, the German Military Command declared it the property of "the Great Germany" and mandated it to the "Ostland" Reichskommissariat. K. Litzmann was appointed the General Commissioner for Estonia.

Moreover, to demonstrate the so called independence of Estonia the Germans established the "Estonian self-government" controlled by H. Mдe, the VAPS leader.

The report of W. Stahlecker, SS-Brigadenfьhrer (the Head of the "Ostland's" SS and Political Police), of 31 January 1942 stressed that "Mдe was escorted to Estonia and engaged by the very consent of the Reich Main Security Office (Reichsiherheisthauptampt)" (Мартинсон Э. Слуги свастики. Таллин, 1962., с.13.).

Immediately after Germany occupied the Estonia's territory mass murders of civilians, especially Russians and Jews began. On October 25, 1941 W. Staheecker, SS-Brigadenfьhrer, reported to R. Heydrich, Head of the RMSO, as follows: "Owing to a comparatively small number of Jews in Estonia it seemed impossible to provoke pogroms... Many Jews of 4 500 ones, who had lived in Estonia in the beginning of the offensive in the East had ran away together with the receding units of the Red Army. About 2 000 of them remained. In Tallin alone about 1 000 Jews lived. Practically, all the male Jews over 16 years were arrested. All of them were executed by the self-defense units controlled by the "Einsatzgruppen 1A" (Мартинсон Э. Слуги свастики. Таллин, 1962., с.74.).

On September 26-29, 1941 the Estonian "self-defense forces" executed 440 detained Jews (474 - according to other data) Hilberg R. Tater, Opfer, Zuschauer. Die Vernichtung der Juden 1933-145. Frankfurt/Main. 1992. s. 115.. The Germans partially transferred the property of those executed to the "self-defense forces".

Besides Jews, the Estonian Police and "the self-defense forces" were executing the supporters of the Soviet system (often believed to include any Russian in some towns and villages), Estonians, who were members of the left-wing organizations (including social democrats), and those peasants, who were granted land as a result of the agrarian reform in Estonia in the 1920-s and in 1940 (the so-called new land owners). In summer and autumn of 1941 after the Wehrmacht occupied Tartu, in the antitank ditch near that city (Lemmatsi village) over 12 thousand civilians and Soviet prisoners of war were killed by the "Omakaitse" squads.

After the Nazis troops occupied Tallin by December 19, 1941 the Estonian Political Police have arrested 4 365 people only in the capital of Estonia alone and its suburbs. The inmates of the Tallin prison were shot according to the lists approved by E. Viks, Chief of the Political Police, nicknamed "Estonian Eichmann" (before 1940 he served as the Commissioner of the Estonian Political Police in Kuressaare). Thus, for example, a 74-year-old Estonian Mijna Kuusik was shot in December 1941 on the following charge: "an Estonian Mijna Kuusik supported the Soviet state system and believed that, if only she were younger, she would have been readily cooperating with the Soviet Union".

In October 1942, 243 Roma imprisoned in the Harku concentration camp were shot, in accordance with a list, as an "inferior racial element". E. Viks was proud to report to M. Sandberger that only on 16 April, 1942, 67 persons left the central Tallin prison to be executed.

In January 1942, after the so-called "Wannsee Conference" in Berlin which decided to execute all Jews in Europe, within the Estonian Political Police a special B-IV Gestapo-modelled Department was established headed by J. Ennok to implement the "final solution of the Jewish question". As a result, Walter Stahlecker reported to Berlin on the full implementation of the task as early as February 1942.

Having solved "the Jewish question" in Estonia, the Estonian police units took part in execution of the Jews deported to Estonia over Europe, mainly from Czechia. For example, on 5 September, 1942, a train with 1000 Jews from the Theresienstadt ghetto arrived to the town of Kaasiku. As the Berlin Jews a week after all of them were shot by the Estonian Political Police.

The materials of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against Humanity note that the Estonian police officers participated directly in escorting Jews deported from Vilnius to the concentration camps in Estonia, guarding the similar camps located in Vaivare, Tartu, Jдgala, Tallin, camps for the Soviet prisoners-of-war where numerous executions of prisoners were carried out and in guarding the transit camp for Jews in Izbica (Poland) where a lot of Jews were murdered, as well as the Jewish ghettos in Lodz, Przemysl, Rzeszov and Tarnopol.

In 1943-1944, several thousand Jews from the ghettos in Kaunas and Vilnius, from the concentration camp of Salaspils in Latvia and from Transylvania were deported to the concentration camp of Klooga (guarded by the 287th Estonian police battalion) and later engaged in peat harvesting. According to the report of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against Humanity, in September 1944, the Estonian police officers participated directly in shooting of 2000 prisoners, when the Wehrmacht was caught unawares by the Red Army units which had advanced to the immediate vicinity of the camp. Virtually some days before the liberation of Tallinn, about thousand of prisoners of the Central Prison were shot by the order of E. Viks.

As for the Estonian regular units to fight alongside the Hitler Germany, they began to be established on 25 August, 1941 when under the order of General-Field Marshall von Leeb, Commander of the "North" Army Group, the Baltic citizens were permitted to be recruited to the Wehrmacht service and grouped into special units and volunteer battalions to fight against partisans (Hoffmann J. Die Ostlegionen 1941-1943. Freiburg, 1976, s.18-19). In this context, Colonel General von Kьchler, Commander of the 18th Army, formed 6 Estonian volunteer guard units (numbered 181-186) on the basis of the scattered "Omakaitse" squads (with its members contracted for one year). By the end of the same year, all the 6 units were restructured into 3 Eastern battalions (the 645th, 659th, 660th) and one Eastern company (the 657th).

Since September 1941, the German Command has started to establish the Estonian Auxiliary Police Battalions ("schum") in addition to the aforementioned units to perform the guard duties and to fight against partisans in the rear of the "North" Army Group. During the war, 26 "schum" battalions were formed in Estonia in all numbered from 29th to the 45th, the 50th and from the 286th to 293th. Unlike the similar units deployed in Ukraine and Belarus, and controlled by the Germans the Estonian Police Battalions were made up of national staff and included only one German monitoring officer. Moreover, as a sign of special trust, the Wehrmacht ranking system was introduced in the Estonian Police Battalions. As of 1 October, 1942, the police forces of Estonia comprised 10.4 thousand men in all with 591 Germans attached thereto.

The police and the Eastern battalions were mostly engaged in carrying out punitive actions against civilian population, fighting against the partisan movement and guarding the concentration camps. Thus, the 36th Estonian Police Battalion took part in mass shooting of Jews in a Byelorussian town of Novogrudki on 7 August, 1942, as corroborated by evidence collected by the Simon Wiesenthal Center (Зурофф: эстонцы участвовали в казнях евреев // BNS/Interfax, 2002 г.), 7 августа. and by the relevant findings of the Estonian International Commission for the Investigation of Crimes against Humanity (Зурофф рекомендует Пихлю уйти в отставку // BNS// Interfax, 2002 г.), 25 июля., as well as in guarding the camps for the prisoners-of-war who were working at coal mines of Stalino and Makeyevka. The 37th and 40th battalions were fighting against the partisan movement in the Pskov region, as was the 38th battalion in the Luga-Pskov-Gdov region. The 286th battalion carried out punitive actions in the Eastern Prussia and Belarus. The 288th battalion was engaged in the suppression of the so-called "Ronson’s Partisan Republic" (Eesti vabadusvoitlejad Teises maailmasjas // Koostja A.Jurs - Tallinn, 1997. p. 146-155 (Эстонские борцы за свободу во Второй мировой войне) // сост. А.Юрс). The 658th Eastern battalion under the command of A. Rebane conducted punitive operations against civilians near the town of Kingisepp and the village of Kerstovo (the Leningrad region), committed brutal murders and burnt down the whole villages (Babino, Habalovo, Cigirinka, etc.) to intimidate the partisans. As evidenced by the witnesses and participants in these punitive operations, A. Rebane’s unit caught five or six Soviet partisans in the village of Cigirinka in November 1942. In the course of this operation the village was burnt to the ground and three villagers died (РГВА. Ф.451п. Оп.5 Д.149. Л.144-145).

The "Ostland" special battalion established in October 1941 also carried out punitive duties (РГВА. Ф.451п. Оп.5. Д.149.Л. 144-145.) According to a researcher R. Michaelis who is referring to the SS Chief Administration’s document No. 8699/42, in 1941-42 this unit resided in the Ukrainian SSR and took part in the executions of Jews. As reported on May, 1942, a thousand Jews were executed in Minsk; as reported on July 15, 1942 another thousand Jews were executed in the same place; as reported on June 27, 1942 four thousand Jews were executed near the town of Slonim; as reported on July 28, 1942 six thousand Jews were executed in Minsk (Michaelis R. Eestlased Wafeen-SS-is 20 (1 Eesti) - SS relvagrenaderidiviis. Tallinn: Olion, 2001. p. 32). In November 1942 the "Ostland" battalion together with three German Police battalions and an artillery regiment under the command of general Haltermann, took part in a joint anti-partisan operation near Ovruc with over 50 villages burnt down and over 1500 locals executed. In a village 40 locals were burnt alive in revenge for the killing of the SS lieutenant Tyrn (ЦА ФСБ. Ф.25. Щп. 5 Д.149. Л.249-258.)

Although today Estonia’s leaders claim that the Estonian Police and the "Omakaitse" brigades were only engaged in "countering Bolshevism", we know that in July 1943 the chiefs of the Estonian Political Police issued an order on the struggle against "Anglophiles". It said in particular: "Along with the Bolsheviks there are some people who in terms of their inclinations and lifestyle pose no less a danger than the former ones. And now, in the wartime, when the whole nation must do its best for its victory, these people are especially dangerous. Those dangerous people, first of al, include the Anglophiles, namely persons who up to 1940 had held to the so-called English orientation…" The Order of June 25, 1942 prescribes the Police to toughen their struggle against paratroopers "whoever sent them: the Russians, the British or somebody else." In January 1943 French POWs in Estonia, who "have often been showing their defiance" were placed in the regime of stronger security. In March 1943, according to a secret order of the Political Police, citizens of the USA, living in Estonia, were put under a strict control (Мартинсон Э. Слуги свастики. Таллин, 1962 г.).

Over 25 death camps were set up on the territory of Estonia. During the occupation over 61 thousand citizens (including foreigners) and 64 thousand Soviet POWs were killed (Великая Отечественная война 1941-1945. Энциклопедия. М. 1985, с.820.)

As for the creation of the Estonian national SS Unit, the initiative here belongs to H. Mдe, head of the "Estonian autonomy", who in his speech on August 26, 1942 called for the creation of the Estonian SS legion. In a few days K. Litzman, General Commissar of Estonia, publicized A. Hitler’s decree on the creation of the "Voluntary Estonian SS legion" belonging to the German SS troops, subordinate to SS Reichsfьhrer H.Himmler (РГВА. Ф 451, Оп.7 Д.123. Л.299).

However the formation of the Legion only started on February 8, 1943 and before that the German authorities and local collaborationists conducted the preparations. Meanwhile, a "Society of the Estonian SS Legion’s friends" was established to recruit and give primary training to the volunteers.

All arrangements, recruiting and supply were placed under the jurisdiction of a special created "General inspection of the SS Estonian legion" headed by Gruppenfьhrer J. Soodla. German occupational authorities suggested that the 15% base of the Legion should consist of manpower of the Estonian East Police battalions (Thomas N. Partisan Warfare 1941-1945. Osprey Publ. Ltd. London, 1983, p.19.)

According to the SS Statute, the Estonian SS legion was manned on a voluntary basis, and the volunteers had to meet the SS requirements for health and ideology. Enlisted personnel who already had their officer and petty officers ranks received the corresponding SS ranks after a probation period. The enlisted men were directed to the Debica training center (Poland), where after a 3-month training took an oath to the Nazi Germany. By March 31, 1943, the Legion had 37 officers, 175 noncoms and 62 privates of the "Ostland" special battalion.

The legionnaires trained at Debica formed 3 battalions, later merged into the first Estonian volunteer grenadier SS regiment. In March 1943 after the oath the 1st battalion of the regiment was sent to the front line near Kursk and incorporated into the 5th panzer-grenadier SS division "Viking" under the name of the Estonian volunteer battalion "Narva" (up to the summer 1944) (Панкратов И.А. Битые любимцы фюрера // Военно-исторический журнал. 2003. №4, с.34.)

Given that, following the Stalingrad defeat of fascists in the winter of 1942/1943, the inflow of volunteers to the Estonian SS legion drastically decreased, late March 1943 saw the mobilization of all the former Estonian officers, November 3-10, 1943 saw the mobilization of all those liable for military service born in 1925. As a result of the mobilization activities, by May 1943, the Estonian SS legion had been significantly reinforced, thus allowing to deploy a regiment to the 3rd Estonian volunteer brigade under the command of Standartenfьhrer F. Ausberger. Its formation completed by October 23, 1943, it first operated against partisans in the territory of the BSSR (Thomas N. Partisan Warfare 1941-1945. Osprey Publ. Ltd. London, 1983, p. 21-229), and was subsequently sent to the front, to the region of Nevel and Sebezh.

German command’s archive records of the period reveal that the 3rd Estonian volunteer SS brigade, along with other subunits of the German army, was conducting Heinrich and Fritz punitive operations to wipe out the Soviet partisans in the region of Polotsk-Nevel-Idriza-Sebezh in October-December 1943 (ЦГА Литовской ССР, ф. Р-1399, оп. 1, ед.х.61, личное дело №1950). According to the very same archive, police battalions 288, 286, 313 and other Estonian police battalions, which belonged to the Estonian SS brigade, also took part in the Fritz punitive expedition. They took part in the fight against partisans, shootings of civilians, looting, destruction of the whole villages in Belarus and mass deportation of civilians to Germany (Там же, ф.240, оп. 1 д.7, личное дело 52-55)1. Punitive raids of the 3rd Estonian SS brigade continued until late December 1943222 (ЦА ФСБ Ф.25 Оп. 1. Д. 152. Л.2582).

In early 1944, it was decided to strengthen the Estonian SS troops by incorporating the Wehrmacht battalions and most battle-worthy police units, which would have made it possible to set up a full-fledged division. Ultimately, the two regiments of the Estonian brigade (№№ 45 and 46 grenadier voluntary SS regiments) were joined by a third one (№47), formed on the basis of 658, 659 and 660 Estonian voluntary Wehrmacht battalions. On 24 January 1944, the newly-formed division was named the 20th Estonian voluntary SS division (since May 26, 1944, the 20th grenadier division of the SS troops is the Estonian № 1). In April, the Narva battalion, renamed 20th fusilier SS battalion, was incorporated into it. Additionally, the unit included an artillery regiment and a field engineer battalion, as well as an anti-aircraft company, an anti-tank company and a communications one. The aggregate strength of the division totaled 15 thousand soldiers and officers.

In August 1944, the 20th Estonian SS division was reinforced by the Estonians who previously fled from German mobilization to Finland and formed a separate 200th regiment in the Finish army (1.7 thousand men), which fought against the Soviet troops on the Mannerheim line. Following Finland’s withdrawal from the war against the USSR, the regiment was sent to Estonia and disbanded, its military personnel distributed among the units and sub-units of the division. Estonians also served in the 11th Nordland motorized SS division along with volunteers from the Scandinavian countries.

In September 1944, the 20th SS division took part in the fight against the Red Army units, including the Estonian rifle corps in the region of Rakvere, where it suffered heavy casualties. In September 1944, its remains were sent to the training camp in the German town of Neuhammer, where, in October 1944, the 20th Estonian SS division, consisting of three Estland grenadier SS regiments, was formed anew from the isolated units of the defeated brigade, members of the 13 Estonian police battalions and "Omakaitse" detachments. Until January 1945, units of the division took part in the fighting in the Eastern Prussia. On 13 January 1945, the whole of the division was sent to the front, to the region of the German town of Vittenberg, where, along with other fascist units, it was surrounded by the Red Army units. F. Augsberger, commander of the division, was killed in action, and it was headed by lieutenant colonel A. Rebane.

Fighting its way out, the division broke out from the encirclement and retreated to the territory of Czechoslovakia, where it stayed until the utter crushing defeat of the German fascist troops. On May 11, 1945, near the town of Melnik, not far away from Prague, the bulk of the military personnel was taken prisoner by the Red Army units (Ready J. Lee. The Forgotten Axis. Germany’s Partners and Foreign Volunteers in World War II. Jefferson, North Carolina and London, 1987. p. 491), though some of the Estonian soldiers and officers (including 3 thousand men from the training and reserve regiment of the division) retreated to the West and surrendered to the English-American troops.

The criminality of the SS organization as a whole was recognized by the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal, which ruled that "the SS was used for the purposes that, according to the Charter, are criminal and include persecution and extermination of Jews, atrocities and killings in the concentration camps, excessive acts, committed during the administration of the occupied territories, implementation of the program of using slave trade, maltreatment of prisoners of war and their killings. Considering the SS issue, the Tribunal includes here all the persons officially admitted to the SS, including members of the "general troops", SS troops (Waffen-SS), Totenkopf SS units and members of any branch of police services who were SS members"... "The Tribunal declares criminal, according to the definition of the Charter, the group consisting of persons who were officially admitted to the SS, were members of the organization and remained its members, being aware that this organization was used to commit actions defined by the article of the Charter as criminal. The criminal activities were widely known to the members of the organization to justify the recognition of the SS as a criminal organization". Furthermore, the Tribunal determined that "it follows from Article 10 of the Charter that the decision to recognize the criminal nature of the accused organization is final and cannot be contested at any of the subsequent trials of individual members of the organization".

It is clear from the verdict, that the Estonian SS legion was also declared criminal as the Tribunal included Waffen SS and any police service officers into the SS and stressed that "it is impossible to single out any SS unit that took no part in such a criminal activity." Further on, the Court "noted" SS divisions’ actions, stressing that the SS divisions were responsible for numerous murders and atrocities perpetrated in the occupied territories…"224 Нюрнбергский процесс. Сборник документов в 8 томах. Т.8, Москва, Юридическая литература, 1997 г., стр. 652 (Nuremberg Trial Proceedings. Сompilation, 8 Volumes, Vol. 8, Moscow, Yuridicheskaya Literatura, 1997, p. 652)

It is also of interest that under Article 10 of the Charter of the Tribunal "in cases where a group or organization is declared criminal by the Tribunal, the competent national authority of any Signatory shall have the right to bring individual to trial for membership therein… in any such case the criminal nature of the group or organization is considered to be established…"

After the secession of Estonia from the USSR, with a view to justifying the collaborationism of Estonian nationalists with the Hitler Germany Estonian authorities accused the German and Soviet "totalitarian regimes" of "involving a certain number of Estonian citizens into criminal activities during the occupation." In this context, on 18 June 2002, the Riigikogu, the Estonian Parliament, adopted the Declaration on Crimes of the Occupation Regimes which attempted to bracket Estonia’s incorporation into the USSR with the occupation by Fascist Germany and to accuse the USSR of aggression, genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes.

At the same time, Estonian authorities assert that the Estonian SS legion was engaged only in the combat operations at the front to defend Estonia's independence and has nothing to do with punitive operations in the territories occupied by the Nazi Germany.

In this regard, Estonian officials actively support awareness-raising measures taken by the "Estonia Freedom Fighters Union", "Estonia’s Eastern Squadron Fighters Club", which are formed by men serving in the SS units during World War II. This is particularly striking when Estonia's executive and legislative authorities assist former SS officers to take awareness-raising measures. For example, the Government appropriated some 400 thousand kroons from its reserve funds to rebury the bones of A. Rebane, a former commander of the 658th Eastern Squadron and then of the 20th Estonian SS Division. Moreover, the ceremony held on 26 July 1999 in the Metsalkamistu cemetery, Tallin, where Estonia's distinguished public figures and politicians are buried, was attended by Lieutenant-General Y. Kert, Defense Forces Commander, other top officials of the Ministry of Defense and representatives of the Estonian Parliament (Riigikogu).

When Tallinn was officially invited to join the EU and NATO, reserve displayed by Estonian officials when showing their special respect for former legionnaires gave place to the strong determination to officially achieve the set goal of making SS officers into "resistance heroes" and "fighters for Estonia’s freedom". The legionnaires were granted that "status" following the opening of the monument to the "fighters for Estonia’s freedom during World War II in Parnu on 23 November 2003. The ceremony was attended by the town officials and several lawmakers, including representatives of the ruling coalition. At first, sponsors of that event planned to build a monument featuring a man wearing an SS uniform and holding an assault rifle pointing eastward. Yielding to the domestic and international public protests, they had to alter the project trying to conceal their intentions.

Estonia have been seeking to heroize the Nazi criminals since mid 1990s, thus officially trying to write the outcomes of World War II anew. "Combat and patriotic" experience gained by the Estonian SS legion, other Estonian combat units under the command of the army of Hitlerite Germany is used to educate younger generation in schools and the Estonian Army, particularly in the Kaitseliit organization reestablished as a militia unit. This is also the case of the Erna Raid, a military and sports event held on a regular basis under the aegis of the Tallinn authorities to glorify "feats" of the Erna subversive group operating in the rear of the Soviet Army in 1941.

The issue of integration of the Estonian society has an important historical aspect as well. In essence, the official propaganda of the activities of nazi accomplices far from encouraging integration processes aggravates differences in the Estonian society.

[Navy]

And that article isnt biased...

Lol! I love this forum. Full of propganda ****.

Post something from an objective part. p-)

[Marmot1]

yep non russian link pls...

[radon]

yep non russian link pls...
Everything saying only negative things about the Estonians came on a .ru adress. And if some did that it doesent all did.

[kingreverent]

If Estonians, Latvians or Lets,- because they all, single handed killed their Jewish neighbours- can today erect a monument for extremely cruel mass-murderers, then they are not worthy of joining the EU.
This proves that they are still proud what they did and are unashamed!
Can someone of those killer-admirers say why they had to kill all jewish population and rob their belongings, if those so called heroic SS-units had to fight against the Soviet invader. Did the jewish neighbour, who lived in peace during centuries, invade the Baltic countries? Did the Jews perhaps caused a "defeat" of some little war on the Baltics (Dolchstoss-theory)?
Anyhow, the fact that Jews are still living in Europe, is the work of the heroic struggle of the Red army. Without the Red army, there were no more living Jews in Europe.
I would like to thank hereby the Russian nation for what they did to defeat Hitler, because it was only the Red Army that destroyed the Nazi's, not the Americans or British. Instead of erecting a monument for the Latvian killers, there should be erected everywhere a monument for the heroic russian soldier.

[FDF_Hemppis]

This is getting silly.

Well now, dear forum members. What do you think, which would have been better:

A) Stalin behind the iron curtain sending people to gulags?
or
B) Hitler under the swastika sending people to stalags?

Do I respect the fallen Red Army soldiers? YES!
Do I respect the fallen Wehrmacht soldiers? YES!
Do I respect the fallen SS soldiers? YES
Do I respect anyone from the armies above that made war crimes and/or murdered yews? ...Do you have to even ask?

[CPL Trevoga]

They only thing that Red Army did that embarasses me, is that they backstabed Poland in 1939.

As far as SS troops, Red Army troop did not kill enough of them.

PS. I don't consider all German troops killers, just SS.

[Carlos]

if they were figthing with Nazis they are nazis,
so they making monument to Nazis


American Forces trained Taliban in Afghanistan a couple of years ago because they had a common adversary - that makes them...Taliban? :|

[Mamon]

It's insane to assume that every SS soldier was "murderer". In WWII all groups committed atrocities; that was simply the order of the day. Trust me, the SS fighting units did not have a monopoly on atrocities. Estonia should be allowed to erect a monument to its soldiers...and whether you agree with it or not doesn't change the fact that they'll honor their own.

And as far as Franco cabron...what other dictator in history prepared his country for democracy?(yes, actually read a book before you type something stupid, stop hyperventilating) Nobody's a saint, but you cannot put Franco on the same tier as Hitler or Stalin. But I guess the half of you can't tell the difference as you think Franco=Hitler=murderer and German soldier=Nazi=jew killer. Wow, some of your logic skills are amazing. Some of you might do well to open and read some books before opening your traps.



Nothing wrong, a monument, in honnour for they fallen people.

Fallen murderers and killers. You shouldn't be talking Mr. Franko.

[martinexsquaddie]

Churchill summed up Stalins russia perfectly :lol:
When Germany attacked russia "if MR Hitler invaded hell I'd try to find something decent to say about the Devil"
Every Baltic state and every East European nation has clambered to join Nato and the Eu rather than keep close ties with russia.
Far from being glorious anti facists did'nt Stalin sign a non-aggresion pact with hitler?
I remember the inner german border where the claymore type mines were on the inside to kill people trying to leave :(
The soviet union was just as evil as Nazi germany and probably killed even more than the holocaust it just took them longer :(

[CPL Trevoga]

It's insane to assume that every SS soldier was "murderer". In WWII all groups committed atrocities; that was simply the order of the day. Trust me, the SS fighting units did not have a monopoly on atrocities. Estonia should be allowed to erect a monument to its soldiers...and whether you agree with it or not doesn't change the fact that they'll honor their own.

And as far as Franco cabron...what other dictator in history prepared his country for democracy?(yes, actually read a book before you type something stupid, stop hyperventilating) Nobody's a saint, but you cannot put Franco on the same tier as Hitler or Stalin. But I guess the half of you can't tell the difference as you think Franco=Hitler=murderer and German soldier=Nazi=jew killer. Wow, some of your logic skills are amazing. Some of you might do well to open and read some books before opening your traps.



Nothing wrong, a monument, in honnour for they fallen people.

Fallen murderers and killers. You shouldn't be talking Mr. Franko.

Listen, as I said before, if you're not a Jew or Russian, SS troops may be heroic fighters, but in Russia during WW2 SS troops commited atrocities aganist civilan population, that can not be forgiven.

Franko comment was to point out that Franco's regime was friendly to Hitler, therefore I expect sympathy for German SS soldiers coming from Spanish.

Germans came to my contry, murdered millions, destroyed half of European Russia and you want me to feel sorry feel for their fallen? You want me to feel the pain of Estonians who want to celebrate their filthy SS murders? I don't think so.

[CRAZY MERC]

I agree with Trevoga. Russians have a point.
Does Trevoga means Alarm in russian ?

[UkrainianAmerican]

I agree with Trevoga. Russians have a point.
Does Trevoga means Alarm in russian ?
Affirmative.

[The Walrus]

These people who joined the SS did so to fight the Russians, not because they were Nazis. Estonia has a long history of oppression by the Russians, right up to the end of the communist era, it wouldn't be an exaguration to say that half of Estonias population was either killed or sent to the gulags under Russian occupation. Linking Estonia to Nazism shows grave ignorance, for your information Estonia was one of the first European countries to give full cultural autonomy to all ethnic groups (1925), including Jews, during a peak in anti-semitism across the rest of Europe, and it was the Russians who destroyed all the Jewish institutions when they occupied Estonia in 1940.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/vjw/Estonia.html

[RomanS]

fuk Estonia

fuk Nazis

fuk Marmot

[Russian Texan]

Several people here pointed to the oppression of Estonia and baltic states in general, by the USSR. That what is called selective memory.

From you sources, USSR oppressed them , for what - 50 or so years?
Now, lets stay objective, please provide us with the history of Estonians, Latvians, Litovians and other "peaceful neighbors" oppressing (raping, stealing, murdering - you know the package) of Russians. I'll help you with a time frame - it lasted for a few centuries...

You see, I don't buy any BS about USSR oppressing mentioned above. All of those countries pillaged Russia's land for centuries and no one ever said "sorry", hell, they are even proud of it...
But when Russia merely enforced it's own political system in their countries - everyone screaming "bloody murder"...

There is an idiot on this forum named Herrmennek, he likes to tell a story how soviets took a cow, plow or some other sh*t from his granfather and wants us to feel sorry for him. They didn' kill him, didn't take him away into slavery, unlike everyone else done to Russians everytime opportunity presented itself.
In the Bible it says "Treat others the way you want to be treated", so I guess Estonians and others treated and done to Russians the way they wanted to be treated themselves.
Payback is a bitch, ain't?

NAACP started a motion that "crackers" should pay back reparations for the years of slavery. I'd say Russia should demand the same from it's "peaceful neighbors".
Pray to God, that I'll never become president of Russia or get into any position of power over there, 'cause I'll straighten out all of you m***f*** rather quickly and erect a monument to that.

[mack pl]

fuk Marmotomg, Marmot will cry all day when he read that :roll:

:lol:

[duck]

Several people here pointed to the oppression of Estonia and baltic states in general, by the USSR. That what is called selective memory.

From you sources, USSR oppressed them , for what - 50 or so years?
Now, lets stay objective, please provide us with the history of Estonians, Latvians, Litovians and other "peaceful neighbors" oppressing (raping, stealing, murdering - you know the package) of Russians. I'll help you with a time frame - it lasted for a few centuries...

You see, I don't buy any BS about USSR oppressing mentioned above. All of those countries pillaged Russia's land for centuries and no one ever said "sorry", hell, they are even proud of it...
But when Russia merely enforced it's own political system in their countries - everyone screaming "bloody murder"...

There is an idiot on this forum named Herrmennek, he likes to tell a story how soviets took a cow, plow or some other sh*t from his granfather and wants us to feel sorry for him. They didn' kill him, didn't take him away into slavery, unlike everyone else done to Russians everytime opportunity presented itself.
In the Bible it says "Treat others the way you want to be treated", so I guess Estonians and others treated and done to Russians the way they wanted to be treated themselves.
Payback is a bitch, ain't?

NAACP started a motion that "crackers" should pay back reparations for the years of slavery. I'd say Russia should demand the same from it's "peaceful neighbors".
Pray to God, that I'll never become president of Russia or get into any position of power over there, 'cause I'll straighten out all of you m***f*** rather quickly and erect a monument to that.

So, how about General Vlassow and the tens of thousands of Russians who chose to fight in the SS against Stalin and Berija?

[RomanS]

Several people here pointed to the oppression of Estonia and baltic states in general, by the USSR. That what is called selective memory.

From you sources, USSR oppressed them , for what - 50 or so years?
Now, lets stay objective, please provide us with the history of Estonians, Latvians, Litovians and other "peaceful neighbors" oppressing (raping, stealing, murdering - you know the package) of Russians. I'll help you with a time frame - it lasted for a few centuries...

You see, I don't buy any BS about USSR oppressing mentioned above. All of those countries pillaged Russia's land for centuries and no one ever said "sorry", hell, they are even proud of it...
But when Russia merely enforced it's own political system in their countries - everyone screaming "bloody murder"...

There is an idiot on this forum named Herrmennek, he likes to tell a story how soviets took a cow, plow or some other sh*t from his granfather and wants us to feel sorry for him. They didn' kill him, didn't take him away into slavery, unlike everyone else done to Russians everytime opportunity presented itself.
In the Bible it says "Treat others the way you want to be treated", so I guess Estonians and others treated and done to Russians the way they wanted to be treated themselves.
Payback is a bitch, ain't?

NAACP started a motion that "crackers" should pay back reparations for the years of slavery. I'd say Russia should demand the same from it's "peaceful neighbors".
Pray to God, that I'll never become president of Russia or get into any position of power over there, 'cause I'll straighten out all of you m***f*** rather quickly and erect a monument to that.

You know me, and many many many many other Russians would vote for you.

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

[mack pl]

RT I hope you dont wanna have soldiers like Permskii ;) He will attack enemys tanks with fuzkin knive :lol: He is crazy ;)

:lol:

[duck]

Oops, checked on google.

Vlassow's Russian Liberation Army was operating under the Wehrmacht, not SS. And the figures are much higher than I thought, up to three million Russians fighting on the Axis side.

[mack pl]

Oops, checked on google.

Vlassow's Russian Liberation Army was operating under the Wehrmacht, not SS. And the figures are much higher than I thought, up to three million Russians fighting on the Axis side.ok, but what about SS-brigadefuhrer Mieczyslaw Kaminski(RONA regiment) ?

[Mamon]

Listen, as I said before, if you're not a Jew or Russian, SS troops may be heroic fighters, but in Russia during WW2 SS troops commited atrocities aganist civilan population, that can not be forgiven.

Franko comment was to point out that Franco's regime was friendly to Hitler, therefore I expect sympathy for German SS soldiers coming from Spanish.
Misinformed obviously...not every Spaniard was in favor of Hitler...the reason some Spanish fought against the Russians was because the Russians fought against Franco in the Spanish Civil War...quid pro quo, since there was a Civil War in which one side favored the Soviet/Communist ideology, obviously not every Spanish will be in favor of Franco.

Germans came to my contry, murdered millions, destroyed half of European Russia and you want me to feel sorry feel for their fallen? You want me to feel the pain of Estonians who want to celebrate their filthy SS murders? I don't think so.
Nobody is asking you to feel sorry for anyone...the Estonians want to honor their own dead...you're not part of the equation, nobody in Estonia wants your input...it's their own business regardless of what the EU/Russia/US/UN says. And like I said, it's insane to assume that every SS soldier was a murderer...

[Russian Texan]

So, how about General Vlassow and the tens of thousands of Russians who chose to fight in the SS against Stalin and Berija?

I think Russian people have already spoken and passed their judgement on that...

[duck]

But how could three million Russians take up arms against their own government, even as late as 1944/45? And what is the contemporary Russian opinion on Stalin, Molotov and Berija anyway?

[Denat]

Oops, checked on google.

Vlassow's Russian Liberation Army was operating under the Wehrmacht, not SS. And the figures are much higher than I thought, up to three million Russians fighting on the Axis side.ok, but what about SS-brigadefuhrer Mieczyslaw Kaminski(RONA regiment) ?

Just to make it clear - Waffen-Brigadefuhrer der SS Mieczysław Kamiński ;)

Something for you mack :P

Był awanturnikiem politycznym, wygłaszającym do swych ludzi mowy propagandowe o wielkiej faszystowskiej Rosji, której chciał być przywódcą - Führerem. Kobiety i alkohol były treścią jego życia. Dowództwo wojskowe pozostawiał swym dowódcom pułków. Pojęcie własności było mu obce, żadnego narodu nie nienawidził tak jak Polaków, których wspominał jedynie obelżywymi słowami.

Kamiński - największa plajta, gwałcili dzisiaj niemieckie dziewczęta z KdF ["Kraft durch Freude"]. Nasze zarządzenia zakazujące grabieży dają się odczuć w sposób nieprzyjemny. Podejmowanie próby uporządkowania sytuacji w grupie Kamińskiego jak na razie nie odniosły skutku.
11 VIII 1944, Dziennik Polowy 9 Armii niemieckiej;

[CPL Trevoga]

Misinformed obviously...not every Spaniard was in favor of Hitler...the reason some Spanish fought against the Russians was because the Russians fought against Franco in the Spanish Civil War...quid pro quo, since there was a Civil War in which one side favored the Soviet/Communist ideology, obviously not every Spanish will be in favor of Franco.

Germans came to my contry, murdered millions, destroyed half of European Russia and you want me to feel sorry feel for their fallen? You want me to feel the pain of Estonians who want to celebrate their filthy SS murders? I don't think so.
Nobody is asking you to feel sorry for anyone...the Estonians want to honor their own dead...you're not part of the equation, nobody in Estonia wants your input...it's their own business regardless of what the EU/Russia/US/UN says. And like I said, it's insane to assume that every SS soldier was a murderer...

Please stop reading between the lines. I said nothing about Spanish being Nazis. Nothing.

No that's not their own business. At the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial the Schutzstaffel (SS) was declared a criminal organization and a large number of its leaders were executed.
During the Second World War the SS Death's Head Units were put in charge of Germany's Concentration Camps. The SS also followed the German Army into the Soviet Union where they had the responsibility of murdering Jews, gypsies, communists and partisans. Perhaps some individuals were not murderers, but organization itself was criminal.
It's not something to be celebrated by member of EU.

If they chose to build a monument to victims of Stalin's repressions, that would be be different.

[FDF_Hemppis]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Hehehe. Seems like the Russians (some of them) never got over the fact that we kicked their butt and humiliated them. ;)

And if Persmkii is their general, we definitely don't have anything to worry about rofl

[CPL Trevoga]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Hehehe. Seems like the Russians (some of them) never got over the fact that we kicked their butt and humiliated them. ;)

And if Persmkii is their general, we definitely don't have anything to worry about rofl

During Finnish war, my paternal grandma told me, how all men from village were rounded up and sent to the front. Very few came back. Those 20 clicks that thousands died for perhps saved Leningrad in 1941.

In 41 their village was occupied by Finns. Grandma also said that Finns were very nice and always fed them. I like Finns.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Remember... Don't destroy Nokia! :D

[Marmot1]

fuk Estonia

fuk Nazis

fuk Marmot

Arrggghhh.... he want to **** me!!!! Help... I don't want to ****ed by (s)permski... I don't want to catch disease!!!! ;) And I don't want to be a gomosek like him rofl

[Mamon]

No that's not their own business. At the Nuremberg War Crimes Trial the Schutzstaffel (SS) was declared a criminal organization and a large number of its leaders were executed.
During the Second World War the SS Death's Head Units were put in charge of Germany's Concentration Camps. The SS also followed the German Army into the Soviet Union where they had the responsibility of murdering Jews, gypsies, communists and partisans. Perhaps some individuals were not murderers, but organization itself was criminal.
It's not something to be celebrated by member of EU.

Using that same logic, then Russia should never have made monuments to its soldiers during the Great Patriotic War, like the big statue in Volgograd today. Why is it that of 200,000+ German soldiers captured at Stalingrad less than 10,000 returned? That sounds like murder to me.
So if you want to make monuments to the soldiers in the Soviet Army even though some of them murdered POWs and civilians...well that's none of my business.

Nobody was a saint in WWII, and some groups were worse than others. As long as its kept respectable, there should be no reason why Estonians cannot honor their own. Just because they happened to have SS pinned on their collars doesn't automatically make them devils. Either way its up to Estonians to decide what to do for themselves. ;)

[Russian Texan]

But how could three million Russians take up arms against their own government, even as late as 1944/45? And what is the contemporary Russian opinion on Stalin, Molotov and Berija anyway?

I am not so sure about 3 million Russians taking arms against other Russians, somehow I just find it hard to believe.
I am well aware of the fact that there were plenty of SU citizens and Russian POWs aiding and fighting for the Germans, but 3 million... and especially in 44/45 when the Germany was already doomed...
What is that number based upon?

[Russian Texan]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Hehehe. Seems like the Russians (some of them) never got over the fact that we kicked their butt and humiliated them. ;)

And if Persmkii is their general, we definitely don't have anything to worry about rofl

Undeniably SU, due to many reasons, suffered many more casualties, but it was Finland that had to give up 10% of its territory and had to pay off money to SU according to the treaty they made.

Dear, I hate to break it to you, but the "winners" do not concede to "losers" demands.
If a robber attacks me on a street and I win/beat his ass/humiliate him, I don't think I'll give him my wallet and the keys to my house...

[duck]

But how could three million Russians take up arms against their own government, even as late as 1944/45? And what is the contemporary Russian opinion on Stalin, Molotov and Berija anyway?

I am not so sure about 3 million Russians taking arms against other Russians, somehow I just find it hard to believe.
I am well aware of the fact that there were plenty of SU citizens and Russian POWs aiding and fighting for the Germans, but 3 million... and especially in 44/45 when the Germany was already doomed...
What is that number based upon?

RT, I'm not here to bash Russians or their achievements in WWII. I'm just interested in what the people of Russia really thought about Stalinism and the nature of the war. Was there ever a period where it could have turned into a war of liberation from Stalin's rule? Not fighting for Nazi Germany and inhumanity but for a free Russia?

[CPL Trevoga]

But how could three million Russians take up arms against their own government, even as late as 1944/45? And what is the contemporary Russian opinion on Stalin, Molotov and Berija anyway?

I am not so sure about 3 million Russians taking arms against other Russians, somehow I just find it hard to believe.
I am well aware of the fact that there were plenty of SU citizens and Russian POWs aiding and fighting for the Germans, but 3 million... and especially in 44/45 when the Germany was already doomed...
What is that number based upon?

RT, I'm not here to bash Russians or their achievements in WWII. I'm just interested in what the people of Russia really thought about Stalinism and the nature of the war. Was there ever a period where it could have turned into a war of liberation from Stalin's rule? Not fighting for Nazi Germany and inhumanity but for a free Russia?


People in westen Ukraine viewed Germans as liberators in the begining, but due to German brutality their oppinion turned aganist them. Stalin was always viewed as legitemate leader of the Soviet Union. Majority never viewed Germans as liberators, because, well, they were Germans.

[Marmot1]

But how could three million Russians take up arms against their own government, even as late as 1944/45? And what is the contemporary Russian opinion on Stalin, Molotov and Berija anyway?

I am not so sure about 3 million Russians taking arms against other Russians, somehow I just find it hard to believe.
I am well aware of the fact that there were plenty of SU citizens and Russian POWs aiding and fighting for the Germans, but 3 million... and especially in 44/45 when the Germany was already doomed...
What is that number based upon?

RT, I'm not here to bash Russians or their achievements in WWII. I'm just interested in what the people of Russia really thought about Stalinism and the nature of the war. Was there ever a period where it could have turned into a war of liberation from Stalin's rule? Not fighting for Nazi Germany and inhumanity but for a free Russia?


People in westen Ukraine viewed Germans as liberators in the begining, but due to German brutality their oppinion turned aganist them. Stalin was always viewed as legitemate leader of the Soviet Union. Majority never viewed Germans as liberators, because, well, they were Germans.
And Stalin was Georgian....

But... AFAIR Russian,Belarussian,Ukrainian units fighted alongside germans to the end (Belorussians i Kurland, Russians in Austria then moved to Lihtenstain, Ukrainians also on estern front)

[CPL Trevoga]

And Stalin was Georgian....

But... AFAIR Russian,Belarussian,Ukrainian units fighted alongside germans to the end (Belorussians i Kurland, Russians in Austria then moved to Lihtenstain, Ukrainians also on estern front)

I don't know man, I've read about hivis, Russian POW working for Germans. Most likely they just wanted just to survived and made a bet on Germans as majority of Russian POW faced bad conditions in camps.



Using that same logic, then Russia should never have made monuments to its soldiers during the Great Patriotic War, like the big statue in Volgograd today. Why is it that of 200,000+ German soldiers captured at Stalingrad less than 10,000 returned? That sounds like murder to me.
So if you want to make monuments to the soldiers in the Soviet Army even though some of them murdered POWs and civilians...well that's none of my business.

Nobody was a saint in WWII, and some groups were worse than others. As long as its kept respectable, there should be no reason why Estonians cannot honor their own. Just because they happened to have SS pinned on their collars doesn't automatically make them devils. Either way its up to Estonians to decide what to do for themselves. ;)


I tell you why there is statue on mamaev kurgan, it's to honor the defenders of the Motherland. Let me ask you what the hell 200,000 German soldiers were doing in the middle of Russia in the first place?
I watched "Stalingrad", it made me even feel sorry for Germans.

[Marmot1]

ok let's end this topic since it leads to nowhere. :hug:

[UkrainianAmerican]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Remember... Don't destroy Nokia! :D
From what I understand, Nokias board of Directors is actually pretty pro-american and rather rational in their policies. So I think we can make a safe passage for them, in return for 15% discounts on their phones, right Permskii? :)

[Sergei]

But how could three million Russians take up arms against their own government, even as late as 1944/45? And what is the contemporary Russian opinion on Stalin, Molotov and Berija anyway?

I am not so sure about 3 million Russians taking arms against other Russians, somehow I just find it hard to believe.
I am well aware of the fact that there were plenty of SU citizens and Russian POWs aiding and fighting for the Germans, but 3 million... and especially in 44/45 when the Germany was already doomed...
What is that number based upon?

RT, I'm not here to bash Russians or their achievements in WWII. I'm just interested in what the people of Russia really thought about Stalinism and the nature of the war. Was there ever a period where it could have turned into a war of liberation from Stalin's rule? Not fighting for Nazi Germany and inhumanity but for a free Russia?


People in westen Ukraine viewed Germans as liberators in the begining, but due to German brutality their oppinion turned aganist them. Stalin was always viewed as legitemate leader of the Soviet Union. Majority never viewed Germans as liberators, because, well, they were Germans.
And Stalin was Georgian....

But... AFAIR Russian,Belarussian,Ukrainian units fighted alongside germans to the end (Belorussians i Kurland, Russians in Austria then moved to Lihtenstain, Ukrainians also on estern front)

The reason they fought to the bitter end was because they committed so many attrocities that they would be simply hung by the military tribunals if ever to be caught by Soviet Army.
So the units that you mentioned fought not so much for Germany but to save their own stinky skin.
The Latvian SS committed so many acts of murder and genocide on the Belorussian soil that even the German units tried to do as little as possible with those butchers.
Try sometimes to see a movie, which is called "Go and see". This is a tragic movie about how a belorussian village is burned to the ground with all its citizens by latvian and german SS einzatsgruppen.
So we haven't forgotten what they did to civilian men, women and children. If EU is accepting countries with such resurgent Nazi ideology, there is probably something wrong with EU.

[martinexsquaddie]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.

[ikurinturbiini]

fuk Estonia

fuk Nazis

fuk Marmot

Probably your best post ever! woot

One of your Russian pals stated in another thread that you are a funny MoFo. I agree on both accounts.

[Sergei]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D

[ikurinturbiini]

fuk Estonia

fuk Nazis

fuk Marmot

Arrggghhh.... he want to f*** me!!!! Help... I don't want to f*** by (s)permski... I don't want to catch disease!!!! ;) And I don't want to be a gomosek like him rofl

Pretty soon Permskii's messages will have boiled down to just one word. And that's the word he's not even allowed to write here.

Sums it up pretty well.

[ikurinturbiini]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Hehehe. Seems like the Russians (some of them) never got over the fact that we kicked their butt and humiliated them. ;)

And if Persmkii is their general, we definitely don't have anything to worry about rofl

Undeniably SU, due to many reasons, suffered many more casualties, but it was Finland that had to give up 10% of its territory and had to pay off money to SU according to the treaty they made.

Dear, I hate to break it to you, but the "winners" do not concede to "losers" demands.
If a robber attacks me on a street and I win/beat his ass/humiliate him, I don't think I'll give him my wallet and the keys to my house...

Have to agree. We lost it, deal with it.

But we won the peace! ;)

[Marmot1]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D

Maybe they fought nazis but at the same time they commited war crimes...? It seems that russian is unable to handle a fair trial of war criminals so other coutries have to do that. Poland resigned from investigating Katyn case in 1991 since russia promised to put responsible on trial.... and what.... 13 years and nothing happened, even investigation is not finished not to mention sending case to court. So there are voices in Poland to open official investigation and trial since russia is unwilling to prosecute war criminals who murdered several thousands POWs.
Soviet army commited also a lot of war crimes in poland both in 1939 when they backstabed us and again when they "liberated" us... when war finished SU looted everything in Poland, to this day many art pieces museum exponates and archives are in Russia nad Russia refuse to return it to Poland claiming that all looted goods are war trophy, but AFAIK poland and russia were not at state of war at any time during WW2 even when you atacked us in the back there was not official state of war.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D
And, uh, Kuchma was in power for the last 9-10 years. I wouldnt be talking.

[FDF_Hemppis]

I'll be your general. We'll start with Finland.

Hehehe. Seems like the Russians (some of them) never got over the fact that we kicked their butt and humiliated them. ;)

And if Persmkii is their general, we definitely don't have anything to worry about rofl

Undeniably SU, due to many reasons, suffered many more casualties, but it was Finland that had to give up 10% of its territory and had to pay off money to SU according to the treaty they made.

Dear, I hate to break it to you, but the "winners" do not concede to "losers" demands.
If a robber attacks me on a street and I win/beat his ass/humiliate him, I don't think I'll give him my wallet and the keys to my house...

Have to agree. We lost it, deal with it.

But we won the peace! ;)

Sums it pretty good.

Sure, Soviet would have won, IF the war had continued in the Finnish front.

But I said we humiliated you, and kicked your butt. Considering that at the worst, Soviet had something like 8-10 times the manpower, let alone artillery and tanks, against every 1 Finn. And they STILL couldn't break through! Probably the biggest army in the WWII was banging its head against a Finnish wall. Humiliating is to put mildly.

After the war many front-line men had vary mixed feelings. They were happy that the war had ended, but they couldn't understand why they had to give up the land which they had so long defended. Finns marched tens of kilometers backwards to the new (present) border. They left the front-line undefeated. That's what I meant.

We lost the battle, but we won the peace.

[Sergei]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D
And, uh, Kuchma was in power for the last 9-10 years. I wouldnt be talking.
Hey, little jerkoff, who told you that I support Kuchma?
Well, since older poppy Bush has just visited Ukraine and shook hands with Kuchma, looks like the two have a close relationship and actually like each other. Two shoes make a pair, as they say here.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D
And, uh, Kuchma was in power for the last 9-10 years. I wouldnt be talking.
Hey, little jerkoff, who told you that I support Kuchma?
Well, since older poppy Bush has just visited Ukraine and shook hands with Kuchma, looks like the two have a close relationship and actually like each other. Two shoes make a pair, as they say here.
WoW!
They shook hands.
Damn!
Some hardcore relationship.
rofl

[mack pl]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D
And, uh, Kuchma was in power for the last 9-10 years. I wouldnt be talking.
Hey, little jerkoff, who told you that I support Kuchma?
Well, since older poppy Bush has just visited Ukraine and shook hands with Kuchma, looks like the two have a close relationship and actually like each other. Two shoes make a pair, as they say here.
WoW!
They shook hands.
Damn!
Some hardcore relationship.
rofl
rofl good one RA ;)
btw I guess its normal thing when 2 people "shook" hands...ohh, well, maybe not :roll:

[Sergei]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D
And, uh, Kuchma was in power for the last 9-10 years. I wouldnt be talking.
Hey, little jerkoff, who told you that I support Kuchma?
Well, since older poppy Bush has just visited Ukraine and shook hands with Kuchma, looks like the two have a close relationship and actually like each other. Two shoes make a pair, as they say here.
WoW!
They shook hands.
Damn!
Some hardcore relationship.
rofl
rofl good one RA ;)
btw I guess its normal thing when 2 people "shook" hands...ohh, well, maybe not :roll:

And they kissed old-Brezhnev style, see, you happy now. :lol:

[mack pl]

Its probably had the desired effect pissing off russia big time.
must be galling to have your former colony's turn on you :lol:
Its called freedom even the US still has the american nazi party :roll:.
The stupid "pribalts" are just playing with fire, that's all i can say about that.
First they started prosecuting people who fought nazism and now they erect monuments to honor nazism. They may end up once again in deep morale hole.

P.S. It looks like the american nazi party has crawled right into the White House. :D
And, uh, Kuchma was in power for the last 9-10 years. I wouldnt be talking.
Hey, little jerkoff, who told you that I support Kuchma?
Well, since older poppy Bush has just visited Ukraine and shook hands with Kuchma, looks like the two have a close relationship and actually like each other. Two shoes make a pair, as they say here.
WoW!
They shook hands.
Damn!
Some hardcore relationship.
rofl
rofl good one RA ;)
btw I guess its normal thing when 2 people "shook" hands...ohh, well, maybe not :roll:

And they kissed old-Brezhnev style, see, you happy now. :lol:
Yeah, im happy ;) :lol: