Obscene gloating over US failures in Iraq

[budanski]

Suspicions proven true...


Obscene gloating over US failures in Iraq
Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/22/obscene_gloating_over_us_failures_in_iraq/)By Cathy Young
May 22, 2004

ARE SOME Americans, including journalists, rooting for the enemy while their country is at war? This question is coming up with increasing frequency as the troubles in Iraq continue.

The May 15 issue of the British magazine The Spectator published an article by Daily Telegraph correspondent Tony Hamden, recounting a conversation he had with an unnamed "American magazine journalist of serious accomplishment and impeccable liberal credentials."

According to Hamden, "Not only had she `known' the Iraq war would fail, but she considered it essential that it did so because this would ensure that the `evil' George W. Bush would no longer be running her country. Her editors back on the East Coast were giggling, she said, over what a disaster Iraq had turned out to be. `Lots of us talk about how awful it would be if this worked out.' " Hamden goes on to say that when he asked the woman if "thousands more dead Iraqis would be a good thing," her answer was, essentially, yes.

If this story -- tailor-made to confirm every conservative's worst suspicions about the media establishment -- is true, it illustrates a repugnant mentality. But some of those criticizing such attitudes reveal a mindset that, in some ways, is equally misguided. On the widely read

Instapundit.com weblog, University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Reynolds writes, "To explain things in words of few syllables: It's wrong to root for your country's defeat." Reynolds adds that it's especially wrong "when that defeat would mean the death of innocents" and "when it's merely for domestic political advantage." It's hard to disagree with the last two statements. But what about the sweeping assertion that rooting for your country's defeat is wrong?

This view is hardly limited to Reynolds alone. The other day on the Fox News Channel news show "From the Heartland," while interviewing left-wing cartoonist Ted Rall, host and former congressman John Kasich expressed dismay and shock that anyone could root against their own country in a war.

Yet what if your country, or your government, is engaged in a war that is unjust and immoral? What if it's your country that is wantonly killing innocents, as well as sacrificing the lives of its own soldiers for no good reason?

I should point out that none of this, in my view, is true of the war in Iraq. History's final verdict on this war is still a long way from being in. Yet, it is an indisputable fact that, for good or bad reasons, we went to war against a brutal, sadistic regime in Iraq -- a regime that was the worst enemy of its own people. It is also a fact that, for the most part, the United States has gone to great lengths to avoid injury and death to civilians. Indeed, despite all the troubles, polls have shown that a majority of Iraqis still believe that the US-led war was right and that it has made their lives better.

I should also note that in this case, the gloating over our failures in Iraq can be downright obscene. Rall, who debated Kasich on war and patriotism on Fox News, has mocked former football player Pat Tillman, killed in action in Afghanistan, as a "sap" who joined the army after the Sept. 11 attacks because he wanted to "kill Arabs."

Michael Moore, the so-called documentary filmmaker, compares the Iraqi insurgents -- who indiscriminately kill their own compatriots -- to the fighters of the American revolution. He also states that US forces should stay in Iraq because we must pay with our blood for this war. None of these folks show much concern for the Iraqis victimized by Saddam Hussein and his minions, or by the terrorists today.

But "my country, right or wrong" is not an answer to these ideologues. Such an attitude is worthy of the Soviet Union (where, surely, it wasn't wrong for dissidents to root against their government during the war in Czechoslovakia in 1968 or in Afghanistan in the 1980s), not of a free country.

Ironically, the same conservatives who believe that no decent American can sympathize with the other side during a war also generally believe that our troops in Iraq deserve the support of the Iraqis because we liberated them from an evil regime. Yet, following their logic, patriotic Iraqis would have had to support a homegrown tyrant over foreign occupation.

The difference, of course, is that we're not a dictatorship. So let's not demand mindless, knee-jerk patriotism as if we were. I want to support my country because it's right, not just because it's mine.

Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine. Her column appears regularly in the Globe.*

[Brozozo]

F*cking liberals make me so sick sometimes...

[100_Percent_HOOAH]

F*cking liberals make me so sick sometimes...

Just sometimes? they usually make me sick all the time. Very few of them actually live on this little planet called earth. :fork:

[Brozozo]

F*cking liberals make me so sick sometimes...

Just sometimes? they usually make me sick all the time. Very few of them actually live on this little planet called earth. :fork:
:lol:

[Seoulstriker]

These prison photos are absolutely ridiculous. :roll: It was a shock that our troops could actually move prisoners around nekkid, but that's just how things are. These prisoners are enemy combatants probably with American blood on their hands. The media's frenzy over this whole thing illustrates how biased they are and how they are actually rooting for the enemy by destroying the morale and persistence of the American people during the War on Terror.

(And I have a feeling that the editor making the comments was from Time, Newsweek, or the Nation.) :|

[moughoun]

F*cking liberals make me so sick sometimes...

I'd consider myself pretty liberal, these "people" on the other are just extreme far left nazi's which is an oxymoron, which I think sum's them up perfectly :lol:

[Secret Squirrel]

These prison photos are absolutely ridiculous. :roll: It was a shock that our troops could actually move prisoners around nekkid, but that's just how things are. These prisoners are enemy combatants probably with American blood on their hands. The media's frenzy over this whole thing illustrates how biased they are and how they are actually rooting for the enemy by destroying the morale and persistence of the American people during the War on Terror.

(And I have a feeling that the editor making the comments was from Time, Newsweek, or the Nation.) :|

well its easy to question what some members of the U.S military are doing in Iraq when, in one example, the cause of death was SUFFOCATION...thats not just someone getting out of hand during an attempt to garner a little more information from a prisoner.

[afrographX]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

[budanski]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

Ah, another voice of reason capable of seeing through the NEOCON clout. :roll:

In case you've missed whats been going on for the last 3 years, theres this thing called the War on Terrorism.

[Brozozo]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

What do YOU think the US is in Iraq for?

[cut]

These prison photos are absolutely ridiculous. :roll: It was a shock that our troops could actually move prisoners around nekkid, but that's just how things are. These prisoners are enemy combatants probably with American blood on their hands. The media's frenzy over this whole thing illustrates how biased they are and how they are actually rooting for the enemy by destroying the morale and persistence of the American people during the War on Terror.

(And I have a feeling that the editor making the comments was from Time, Newsweek, or the Nation.) :|

a lot of them were also people picked up at checkpoints. caking someome in ****, doing a thumbs up over a dead body is wrong no matter the excuse.

[scm77]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

What do YOU think the US is in Iraq for?

I think it's obvious that they are in Iraq for oil. That's why the gas prices are so low. :roll: :roll: :cantbeli: :bash:

[mattnwnc03]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

Ah, another voice of reason capable of seeing through the NEOCON clout. :roll:

In case you've missed whats been going on for the last 3 years, theres this thing called the War on Terrorism. well... we didnt go into iraq because of terrorism,there were no known terrorists hiding there then .boy there is now.the only thing saddam was up to no good was killing his people and getting on the united states nerves.he had no money to invade neighboring countries.he was pretty much isolated.now we have a bigger mess than before. afghanistan is much different than iraq, clear and cut.but iraq is much different .bush has been after saddam since day one.now i dont like saddam at all.i was over there the first time and id be willing to go a second i think bush is trying to finish daddies work.this whole iraq thing has made alot of good soldiers leave the army and have had alot of good one get killed.i would consider iraq to be a military blunder like hitler invading russia before germany conquring the west.just imagine how far long we would have gone in the war on terror if we hadnt invaded iraq.who knows bin laden may have been caught by now.

[budanski]

well... we didnt go into iraq because of terrorism,there were no known terrorists hiding there then .boy there is now.the only thing saddam was up to no good was killing his people and getting on the united states nerves.he had no money to invade neighboring countries.he was pretty much isolated.now we have a bigger mess than before. afghanistan is much different than iraq, clear and cut.but iraq is much different .bush has been after saddam since day one.now i dont like saddam at all.i was over there the first time and id be willing to go a second i think bush is trying to finish daddies work.this whole iraq thing has made alot of good soldiers leave the army and have had alot of good one get killed.i would consider iraq to be a military blunder like hitler invading russia before germany conquring the west.just imagine how far long we would have gone in the war on terror if we hadnt invaded iraq.who knows bin laden may have been caught by now.
You could ask yourself why we didnt fiinish off Japan first before going after Germany during WW2. As many like to make the claim that Iraq didnt cause 9/11, Germany didnt attack Pearl Harbor. Still the concept of a World War was there, many have lost the concept of the War on Terrorism. The people that have attacked Bush for not doing enough to prevent 9/11 are the very same that are attacking him for doing just that with Iraq.

[afrographX]

well... we didnt go into iraq because of terrorism,there were no known terrorists hiding there then .boy there is now.the only thing saddam was up to no good was killing his people and getting on the united states nerves.he had no money to invade neighboring countries.he was pretty much isolated.now we have a bigger mess than before. afghanistan is much different than iraq, clear and cut.but iraq is much different .bush has been after saddam since day one.now i dont like saddam at all.i was over there the first time and id be willing to go a second i think bush is trying to finish daddies work.this whole iraq thing has made alot of good soldiers leave the army and have had alot of good one get killed.i would consider iraq to be a military blunder like hitler invading russia before germany conquring the west.just imagine how far long we would have gone in the war on terror if we hadnt invaded iraq.who knows bin laden may have been caught by now.
You could ask yourself why we didnt fiinish off Japan first before going after Germany during WW2. As many like to make the claim that Iraq didnt cause 9/11, Germany didnt attack Pearl Harbor. Still the concept of a World War was there, many have lost the concept of the War on Terrorism. The people that have attacked Bush for not doing enough to prevent 9/11 are the very same that are attacking him for doing just that with Iraq.

how does the war in iraq fit into the enduring freedom operation (=actual war on terrorism). there's absolutely no proof that there was a strong connection between binLaden and Saddam. although Saddam was certainly a very brutal dictator, his removal didn't help to reach the goals of the war on terrorism at all.

[usa320]

I think it's obvious that they are in Iraq for oil. That's why the gas prices are so low

rofl

Nice one.

wa-cha-cha...

We were obviously in Iraq to do 3 things.

1. Remove saddam hussein. Hes shat on the international community and his own people for too long.
2. Destroy and locate the weapons of Mass Destruction, which we are indeed finding.
3. Set up a democracy in the heart of the middle-east, which would in the long run be a major blow to the hatred and intolerance that breeds terrorism and militancy.

[Brozozo]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

What do YOU think the US is in Iraq for?

I think it's obvious that they are in Iraq for oil. That's why the gas prices are so low. :roll: :roll: :cantbeli: :bash:

:P That would have been my exact response if he had said oil! Damn, you read my mind!

[usa320]

This whole prison abuse "scandal" thing is bull****. These guys got lucky. I would have beat the **** out of some of them. The media needs to stop making it look like they were innocent people. For example, one report i read said a soldier brought in an iraqi to Abu Gharib after he killed a man, then raped his wife and daughter. SO these people arent the innocent people the media portrays them as. Does that mean i condone ****** abuse? No. But loud music, changing temperature, sleep deprivation, uncomfortable sitting positions, threatening them with dogs, and shouting are all fair game IMHO. Extracting information could save the lives of thousands of people. And we need to realize that. ****, for some of these bad bad guys, id even break out a tire iron.

[esl]

Obscene gloating over US failures in Iraq
Boston Globe (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/22/obscene_gloating_over_us_failures_in_iraq/)By Cathy Young
May 22, 2004

But "my country, right or wrong" is not an answer to these ideologues. Such an attitude is worthy of the Soviet Union (where, surely, it wasn't wrong for dissidents to root against their government during the war in Czechoslovakia in 1968 or in Afghanistan in the 1980s), not of a free country .....The difference, of course, is that we're not a dictatorship. So let's not demand mindless, knee-jerk patriotism as if we were. I want to support my country because it's right, not just because it's mine.


Some times in history the war against another race effects the other side. Vietnames youth today love everything America, make parents angry? Russian diplomate say that 'we are seeing the sovietization of America' due to the influence of Soviet union during the cold war.

[Brozozo]

This whole prison abuse "scandal" thing is bull****. These guys got lucky. I would have beat the **** out of some of them. The media needs to stop making it look like they were innocent people. For example, one report i read said a soldier brought in an iraqi to Abu Gharib after he killed a man, then raped his wife and daughter. SO these people arent the innocent people the media portrays them as. Does that mean i condone ****** abuse? No. But loud music, changing temperature, sleep deprivation, uncomfortable sitting positions, threatening them with dogs, and shouting are all fair game IMHO. Extracting information could save the lives of thousands of people. And we need to realize that. ****, for some of these bad bad guys, id even break out a tire iron.

woot :hug:

[budanski]

how does the war in iraq fit into the enduring freedom operation (=actual war on terrorism). there's absolutely no proof that there was a strong connection between binLaden and Saddam. although Saddam was certainly a very brutal dictator, his removal didn't help to reach the goals of the war on terrorism at all.
Who said the War on Terrorism only applied to Al Qaeda? Saddam was publicly supporting Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. so the connection to terrrorism was there. With a war on terrorism, saddams failure to keep his end of the bargain on the '91 ceasefire agreement, his attacks at coalition jets in the 'no fly zone' and hostility to his neighbors which costs U.S. taxpayers for their defense (works two folds here cause the U.S. could re-deploy troops elsewhere if not for the threat from Saddam and U.S. getting troops out of Mecca). Saddam was the obvious choice.

[budanski]

e. Vietnames youth today love everything America, make parents angry?
Its not just the kids... (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-nocommies20may20,1,3816169.story)

[jizzmonkey]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

Ah, another voice of reason capable of seeing through the NEOCON clout. :roll:

In case you've missed whats been going on for the last 3 years, theres this thing called the War on Terrorism. well... we didnt go into iraq because of terrorism,there were no known terrorists hiding there then .boy there is now.the only thing saddam was up to no good was killing his people and getting on the united states nerves.he had no money to invade neighboring countries.he was pretty much isolated.now we have a bigger mess than before. afghanistan is much different than iraq, clear and cut.but iraq is much different .bush has been after saddam since day one.now i dont like saddam at all.i was over there the first time and id be willing to go a second i think bush is trying to finish daddies work.this whole iraq thing has made alot of good soldiers leave the army and have had alot of good one get killed.i would consider iraq to be a military blunder like hitler invading russia before germany conquring the west.just imagine how far long we would have gone in the war on terror if we hadnt invaded iraq.who knows bin laden may have been caught by now.

Thats all good, but I look at it this way, Iraq has in fact become our battle ground against terrorist, I would much rather fight them on Iraqi soil than US soil. and all you "the war was wrong" people can suck a fat ****.

[big_les]

We were obviously in Iraq to do 3 things.

1. Remove saddam hussein. Hes shat on the international community and his own people for too long.
2. Destroy and locate the weapons of Mass Destruction, which we are indeed finding.
3. Set up a democracy in the heart of the middle-east, which would in the long run be a major blow to the hatred and intolerance that breeds terrorism and militancy.

Well, one out of three ain't bad, he's removed all right. But the Weapons? I hardly think one Sarin-filled artillery shell after all this time constitutes the WMD we were hoping for. As for setting up a democracy...fingers crossed on that one.

[usa320]

Oh stop trying to belittle the sarin gas shell. It, the mustard gas find two weeks ago, the massive amounts of gas found in Jordan and Syria, they all point back to Iraq. And the fact that saddam had them and hid them from the UN is a blatant infraction of international law.

[afrographX]

rofl rofl rofl

it's really unbelievable how all you conservative pro-bush assholes are constructing your own view of the world, by ignoring facts, wrongly interpreting facts and inventing facts. THIS WAR IS PERVERTED. Every body who believes that the USA fight this War for freedom, democracy and human rights is unbelievable naive.

Ah, another voice of reason capable of seeing through the NEOCON clout. :roll:

In case you've missed whats been going on for the last 3 years, theres this thing called the War on Terrorism. well... we didnt go into iraq because of terrorism,there were no known terrorists hiding there then .boy there is now.the only thing saddam was up to no good was killing his people and getting on the united states nerves.he had no money to invade neighboring countries.he was pretty much isolated.now we have a bigger mess than before. afghanistan is much different than iraq, clear and cut.but iraq is much different .bush has been after saddam since day one.now i dont like saddam at all.i was over there the first time and id be willing to go a second i think bush is trying to finish daddies work.this whole iraq thing has made alot of good soldiers leave the army and have had alot of good one get killed.i would consider iraq to be a military blunder like hitler invading russia before germany conquring the west.just imagine how far long we would have gone in the war on terror if we hadnt invaded iraq.who knows bin laden may have been caught by now.

Thats all good, but I look at it this way, Iraq has in fact become our battle ground against terrorist, I would much rather fight them on Iraqi soil than US soil. and all you "the war was wrong" people can suck a fat ****.

you made it your battleground against what you call terrorists. some iraquis may call tham freedom fighters. the al-quaeda terrorists who are in iraq are there because the usa opened up this new front, a front where al-quaeda could more easily attack america.

...and suck your own **** asshole :bash: