Putin's candidate Medvedev says "No" to TV debates

[Snoshi]

MOSCOW (*******) - President Vladimir Putin's chosen successor, Dmitry Medvedev, has refused to meet his rivals for the presidency in live television debates ahead of the March 2 election.

His opponents denounced his decision as unfair and said it would make it even harder for opposition candidates to gain airtime to get across their views.
"Dmitry Medvedev has informed the Central Election Commission about his decision not to take part in joint events," a member of his campaign staff said.

The 42-year-old lawyer, buoyed by strong support from the popular Putin, is already way ahead of all rivals in opinion polls and gets blanket coverage on state-run media.

Official campaign rules envisage live TV debates among candidates. But in past elections Putin and his United Russia have refused to take part, saying they saw no worthy partners to debate with.

The Election Commission has disqualified an ex-prime minister, Mikhail Kasyanov, from running in the election leaving Medvedev to compete with veteran Communist leader Gennady Zyuganov, pro-Kremlin nationalist Vladimir Zhirinovsky and little-known independent Andrei Bogdanov.

"The authorities are afraid of any discussion, any risk," Kasyanov told Ekho Moskvy radio and repeated his call for opposition candidates to boycott the poll.

"My insistent recommendation is that you do not take part in this farce, this special operation," Kasyanov said.

Medvedev's decision renders TV election debates pointless.
Ivan Melnikov, the Communist Party's number two, said Zyuganov would not debate without Medvedev, Interfax news agency reported.

Kasyanov and Zyuganov have previously said that a Medvedev refusal to take part in television debates would show that the Russian polls were a staged succession designed to ensure power stays in Putin's hands.

For more on Russia's presidential election, please see our blog "Operation Successor" at blogs.*******.com/russia.
http://www.*******.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2913356920080129?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

[Lokos]

I really don't understand the rest of the world, sometimes. They don't want a hostile Russia, but their media and leadership constantly and consistently see the second coming of the Third Reich/Soviet Union in the currently established power elite in the Kremlin. If this does turn out to be an oligarchic, massively centralized and repressive state, so what?

As long as it is stable and non-belligerent (and being 'undemocratic' in no way implies, connotates or necessitates belligerence) I don't see a problem. And by seeing a problem, where there doesn't have to be one, the 'international community' (i.e. the West, as the rest of the world rightly couldn't care less) is actively formenting sour relations with a natural major (if no longer great) power.

The Russian Federation is a vast territory with no singularly dominant culture across its expanse. Perhaps if one was to consider a decentralized, Western liberal state for a rump Russia centred on Moscow, St. Petersburg and the rest of the core of the ethnic Russian parts of the Federation, such sentiments would be more realistic.

Real democracy - for Moscow - means chronic instability. Southern Russia is ripe for the picking by the ethnicities that dominate it. Eastern Russia increasingly so. They can clamp down, as has been Russian tradition for three centuries, or they can release their grip on these territories. The moment that grip does just that, you'll see Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia and, perhaps, Tatarstan spring up within a decade or two.

Moaning about individual rights, when the vast majority of the Russian population outright prefers an emphasis on the issues of security and continued economic prosperity (i.e. stability), seems to me to be a case of watching the trees and losing sight of the forest. Western style democracy, in Russia, has no credit with the populace. Not after the experiments of the late 90s.

At some point, one can only sit back and think 'You know, maybe they (Western governments) really do have it in for those poor bastards'.

Truly, I hope common sense prevails at some point, and the gentlement writing the sensationalist and alarmist tripe currently flooding the media networks see past their noses (and their agendas) for a change.

There is not even a hint of democracy about in China. Not a hint. Or in Pakistan. Or in Saudi Arabia. Both of the latter are US allies. The former is the world's secondary economic motor. And rarely do the governments of the above come under fire as does the Russian government. Tinfoil hats at the ready, assuredly, but at some point one must question the nature of this whole beast.

Lokos

[TR1]

I really don't understand the rest of the world, sometimes. They don't want a hostile Russia, but their media and leadership constantly and consistently see the second coming of the Third Reich/Soviet Union in the currently established power elite in the Kremlin. If this does turn out to be an oligarchic, massively centralized and repressive state, so what?

As long as it is stable and non-belligerent (and being 'undemocratic' in no way implies, connotates or necessitates belligerence) I don't see a problem. And by seeing a problem, where there doesn't have to be one, the 'international community' (i.e. the West, as the rest of the world rightly couldn't care less) is actively formenting sour relations with a natural major (if no longer great) power.

The Russian Federation is a vast territory with no singularly dominant culture across its expanse. Perhaps if one was to consider a decentralized, Western liberal state for a rump Russia centred on Moscow, St. Petersburg and the rest of the core of the ethnic Russian parts of the Federation, such sentiments would be more realistic.

Real democracy - for Moscow - means chronic instability. Southern Russia is ripe for the picking by the ethnicities that dominate it. Eastern Russia increasingly so. They can clamp down, as has been Russian tradition for three centuries, or they can release their grip on these territories. The moment that grip does just that, you'll see Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia and, perhaps, Tatarstan spring up within a decade or two.

Moaning about individual rights, when the vast majority of the Russian population outright prefers an emphasis on the issues of security and continued economic prosperity (i.e. stability), seems to me to be a case of watching the trees and losing sight of the forest. Western style democracy, in Russia, has no credit with the populace. Not after the experiments of the late 90s.

At some point, one can only sit back and think 'You know, maybe they (Western governments) really do have it in for those poor bastards'.

Truly, I hope common sense prevails at some point, and the gentlement writing the sensationalist and alarmist tripe currently flooding the media networks see past their noses (and their agendas) for a change.

There is not even a hint of democracy about in China. Not a hint. Or in Pakistan. Or in Saudi Arabia. Both of the latter are US allies. The former is the world's secondary economic motor. And rarely do the governments of the above come under fire as does the Russian government. Tinfoil hats at the ready, assuredly, but at some point one must question the nature of this whole beast.

Lokos
I wouldn't put my bets On Dagestan, for the most part we are quite happy to remain part of the Federation.p-)

[Lokos]

There are loyalists and dissenters everywhere. But Russia's leadership must take into account potentialities and worst case scenarios. The 'separatist bug' is currently confined. But that has only been accomplished with massive blood letting and divisive politicking. A truly democratic Russia, with a regional department system endowed with significant power (i.e. decentralization) would most likely ruin that country in fairly short order.

The boundaries of the Russian Federation were established through empire building (in a historical sense). Many of its current possessions are, to a variable degree, colonial - if such terms can be safely applied in this case.

Integration, as I see it, is not far enough along. Nor is it being aggressively pushed anymore, given the proliferation of mosques and regional autonomies in both education and culture. As long as the Russian Federation is a community of nations, as opposed to a national community, it will never be able to afford grass roots democracy.

On a greater scale, this is exactly what happened to the Soviet Union. True democratization (rather, the process thereof) dismembered it almost immediately.

Lokos

[SOG]

I really don't understand the rest of the world, sometimes. They don't want a hostile Russia, but their media and leadership constantly and consistently see the second coming of the Third Reich/Soviet Union in the currently established power elite in the Kremlin. If this does turn out to be an oligarchic, massively centralized and repressive state, so what?

As long as it is stable and non-belligerent (and being 'undemocratic' in no way implies, connotates or necessitates belligerence) I don't see a problem. And by seeing a problem, where there doesn't have to be one, the 'international community' (i.e. the West, as the rest of the world rightly couldn't care less) is actively formenting sour relations with a natural major (if no longer great) power.

The Russian Federation is a vast territory with no singularly dominant culture across its expanse. Perhaps if one was to consider a decentralized, Western liberal state for a rump Russia centred on Moscow, St. Petersburg and the rest of the core of the ethnic Russian parts of the Federation, such sentiments would be more realistic.

Real democracy - for Moscow - means chronic instability. Southern Russia is ripe for the picking by the ethnicities that dominate it. Eastern Russia increasingly so. They can clamp down, as has been Russian tradition for three centuries, or they can release their grip on these territories. The moment that grip does just that, you'll see Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia and, perhaps, Tatarstan spring up within a decade or two.

Moaning about individual rights, when the vast majority of the Russian population outright prefers an emphasis on the issues of security and continued economic prosperity (i.e. stability), seems to me to be a case of watching the trees and losing sight of the forest. Western style democracy, in Russia, has no credit with the populace. Not after the experiments of the late 90s.

At some point, one can only sit back and think 'You know, maybe they (Western governments) really do have it in for those poor bastards'.

Truly, I hope common sense prevails at some point, and the gentlement writing the sensationalist and alarmist tripe currently flooding the media networks see past their noses (and their agendas) for a change.

There is not even a hint of democracy about in China. Not a hint. Or in Pakistan. Or in Saudi Arabia. Both of the latter are US allies. The former is the world's secondary economic motor. And rarely do the governments of the above come under fire as does the Russian government. Tinfoil hats at the ready, assuredly, but at some point one must question the nature of this whole beast.

Lokos

1. By coming here often you should know the answer to your rant. Moaning about free journalism in the US is an old pastime.

2. Western style democracy failed because the entire Soviet Union crumbled, democracy was adopted then ultimately blamed for the miserable conditions. To be fair, you didn't even give "western democracy" a chance before returning to the good 'ol ways as Russia hadn't even pulled itself out of its hardships yet. I doubt any style of rule would have cleanly survived the hardships of rebuilding and organizing such a large nation. Democracy was in essence, the perfect scapegoat for the times. Something new, daring and different.

3. Even you admit Southern Russia would break under Democracy with so many vast ethnicities. This is again due to the fact that Russia swallowed more than it could chew when forming the USSR. The only way Russia can willingly keep many of its states is by looming force if necessary.

4. Personally I don't think Russia should be a democracy. I think ANY country should be whatever the majority is comfortable living with.

5. Your comment about the "alarmist tripe" is simply a little thing called journalism. I am surprised by the thin skin response. We get this onslaught daily in America. Learn to ignore retarded OP ED's. They are easy to spot from a mile away.

6. As for China, surely you can see why they prevail on the market where Russia fails? China is incredibly open to business, new relations, economy and now working to court the world with tourism, modern facilities and face paced trends. Whereas Russia is... cold. As usual. I think it is fairly easy to see the differences between China and Russia. And yes, China draws quite a bit of criticism for its human rights record from the US. The only reason I know of China's human rights record is because of people bitching in the US.

[Doublethinker]

There are loyalists and dissenters everywhere. But Russia's leadership must take into account potentialities and worst case scenarios. The 'separatist bug' is currently confined. But that has only been accomplished with massive blood letting and divisive politicking. A truly democratic Russia, with a regional department system endowed with significant power (i.e. decentralization) would most likely ruin that country in fairly short order.

The boundaries of the Russian Federation were established through empire building (in a historical sense). Many of its current possessions are, to a variable degree, colonial - if such terms can be safely applied in this case.

Integration, as I see it, is not far enough along. Nor is it being aggressively pushed anymore, given the proliferation of mosques and regional autonomies in both education and culture. As long as the Russian Federation is a community of nations, as opposed to a national community, it will never be able to afford grass roots democracy.

On a greater scale, this is exactly what happened to the Soviet Union. True democratization (rather, the process thereof) dismembered it almost immediately.

Lokos

Exactly why the Russian Federation must be completely overhauled. I'd favour an independent Caucasus with some puppet figure in power, like in African ex-colonies, pumping oil and killing each other, as well as locking up the border, to make sure no хачи get out.


All empires sooner or later come to one main question: what's more important the state or the root ethnicity? In Russia the trend has always been to choose the former, sacrificing millions of Russian people for the chimaera of 'state greatness', which actually gave little to Russians themselves.

I hope, things will change for the best in the future.

[Doublethinker]

I wouldn't put my bets On Dagestan, for the most part we are quite happy to remain part of the Federation.p-)

Too bad. Dagi are the worst. Only second to chechens. In fact, if one days all хачи suddenly disappeared in Russia, I think the only ones who'd be sorry would be the criminals dealing in car thefts.

[Mr.K]

Careful there TheRussian1 will steal your "kopeika"!p-)

[Flamming_Python]

6. As for China, surely you can see why they prevail on the market where Russia fails? China is incredibly open to business, new relations, economy and now working to court the world with tourism, modern facilities and face paced trends. Whereas Russia is... cold. As usual. I think it is fairly easy to see the differences between China and Russia. And yes, China draws quite a bit of criticism for its human rights record from the US. The only reason I know of China's human rights record is because of people bitching in the US.

Outdated view. International investors are running to Russia in droves as of 2007/2008

[Kilgor]

I really don't understand the rest of the world, sometimes. They don't want a hostile Russia, but their media and leadership constantly and consistently see the second coming of the Third Reich/Soviet Union in the currently established power elite in the Kremlin. If this does turn out to be an oligarchic, massively centralized and repressive state, so what?


Human rights abuses are certainly not going to be a Issue for the russiaphiles abroad who enjoy the benefits of the west while preaching the "stability' model for Russia. A interesting euphemism if there ever was one. Take a look at Russia's history, of the Tsar, the Soviets and the abuses committed in the name of the common good and stability. Governments should be accountable, no matter what. Call me idealistic but I believe it is a unquestionable human right.

You would also know from history, a state always exports influence and its idealism to neighbouring nations. This whole idea of "its acceptable to abuse our own people just not our neighbours" is just rubbish.

There are plenty of examples of Russia embracing and re-establishing the autocratic of the soviet past. It is not a helpful image in western eyes when so many of the upper echelons of Russian power is filled with former KGB members.




As long as it is stable and non-belligerent (and being 'undemocratic' in no way implies, connotates or necessitates belligerence) I don't see a problem. And by seeing a problem, where there doesn't have to be one, the 'international community' (i.e. the West, as the rest of the world rightly couldn't care less) is actively formenting sour relations with a natural major (if no longer great) power.


As I mentioned above, IMO the whole concept "ok to abuse our own, but we promise not to abuse others" does not wash. States always export.




Moaning about individual rights, when the vast majority of the Russian population outright prefers an emphasis on the issues of security and continued economic prosperity (i.e. stability), seems to me to be a case of watching the trees and losing sight of the forest. Western style democracy, in Russia, has no credit with the populace. Not after the experiments of the late 90s.



The old "Disastrous experiment with democracy" line again. Lokos, may one remind you it was the collapse of the soviet centrally planned economy that resulted in these chaotic conditions, not "democracy" The country was a basket case from decades of communist political and economic mismanagement, not democracy. You certainly know this, but just cannot accept it.



There is not even a hint of democracy about in China. Not a hint. Or in Pakistan. Or in Saudi Arabia. Both of the latter are US allies. The former is the world's secondary economic motor. And rarely do the governments of the above come under fire as does the Russian government. Tinfoil hats at the ready, assuredly, but at some point one must question the nature of this whole beast.



Rubbish. The Australian media, is just as critical of Pakistan and China as they are Russia. To say "not a hint" is just quite frankly bullsh!t. Go read the Australian or watch SBS news, the 7:30 report.

[TR1]

Too bad. Dagi are the worst. Only second to chechens. In fact, if one days all ???? suddenly disappeared in Russia, I think the only ones who'd be sorry would be the criminals dealing in car thefts.

You are an idiot. ****brains like yourself give Russia the image as a racist paradise. Have fun away from this board.

[TR1]

Careful there TheRussian1 will steal your "kopeika"!p-)

bah, I dont need his ****ty zaporozets or w/e POS he drives, my Oka is a chick magnet.

[Lokos]

1. By coming here often you should know the answer to your rant. Moaning about free journalism in the US is an old pastime.

My rant? Very, well, let's call it that. I am also 'moaning' about the governmental approach to Russia on the part of many a Western country.


2. Western style democracy failed because the entire Soviet Union crumbled, democracy was adopted then ultimately blamed for the miserable conditions. To be fair, you didn't even give "western democracy" a chance before returning to the good 'ol ways as Russia hadn't even pulled itself out of its hardships yet. I doubt any style of rule would have cleanly survived the hardships of rebuilding and organizing such a large nation. Democracy was in essence, the perfect scapegoat for the times. Something new, daring and different.


Something new, daring, different? Are you pushing a new line of clothing and accessories? It is not as if the citizenry of the then-Soviet Union was unaware of the basic tenets of democracy. It became a perfect scapegoat because it also became the perfect vehicle to ransack the Soviet Union - the democratic institutions may have been there, but the imposition thereof simply placed a masque over an entirely different political tradition. 'Western democracy' wasn't given a chance because, given the chance, it would destroy the Russian Federation in fairly short order.


3. Even you admit Southern Russia would break under Democracy with so many vast ethnicities. This is again due to the fact that Russia swallowed more than it could chew when forming the USSR. The only way Russia can willingly keep many of its states is by looming force if necessary.


And why should the Russians give up anything they have won through centuries of blood letting? The only reason America has a right to the continental US of A is because of a cycle of conquest, cultural imperialism, at times genocide and diplomatic bullying. In the integration and colonization of the former territories of the Native Americans and the Mexicans, however, it has been far more successful, than has been the case for the south of Russia. Nonetheless, the essential problem remains; why should Russia cave in to please ethnic minorities that have not had an independent history for three centuries? Democracy is not worth it.


4. Personally I don't think Russia should be a democracy. I think ANY country should be whatever the majority is comfortable living with.


I'm glad we agree.


5. Your comment about the "alarmist tripe" is simply a little thing called journalism. I am surprised by the thin skin response. We get this onslaught daily in America. Learn to ignore retarded OP ED's. They are easy to spot from a mile away.


A thin skin response? It was a statement of fact. There are numerous people out there who won't spot this stuff from a mile away; people who will accept it at face value. The governments of the nations in question are certainly not helping the situation.


6. As for China, surely you can see why they prevail on the market where Russia fails?

What does that have to do with anything I said?


As usual. I think it is fairly easy to see the differences between China and Russia. And yes, China draws quite a bit of criticism for its human rights record from the US.

China hasn't faced a legitimate international challenge to the nature of its leadership since the early 90s. It's hypocritical, ugly, and - after all is said and done - predictable.


Human rights abuses are certainly not going to be a Issue for the russiaphiles abroad who enjoy the benefits of the west while preaching the "stability' model for Russia

Ahh, so United Russia has no support with 'real' Russians, then? Is this the gist of what you're saying? The implication is certainly there.


Governments should be accountable, no matter what. Call me idealistic but I believe it is a unquestionable human right.


Very easy to say, given your situation. Which, believe it or not, is not applicable to the entirety of the human experience.


You would also know from history, a state always exports influence and its idealism to neighbouring nations. This whole idea of "its acceptable to abuse our own people just not our neighbours" is just rubbish.


Then where is the outright hostility for the Chinese leadership? Or the Saudi? Or the Pakistani? Or the Vietnamese? Where? You say 'idealism', I hear 'arrogance and cultural imperialism'.


There are plenty of examples of Russia embracing and re-establishing the autocratic of the soviet past. It is not a helpful image in western eyes when so many of the upper echelons of Russian power is filled with former KGB members.


Good. I hope they do exactly that. I hope Russian patriots can look past the weak-willed, nervous reactions of the West and run their country exactly the way it needs to be run. With an iron fist. Every time they've tried velvet, they've suffered. The problem is endemic. Russia is too big, too diverse, with interests too divergent amongst its communities for grass roots democracy to work, and for the country to stay together at the same time.


As I mentioned above, IMO the whole concept "ok to abuse our own, but we promise not to abuse others" does not wash. States always export.


And what is the United States exporting? Love and democracy? Please. The Russian Federation has been far more subdued in its 'exports'. It has not been belligerent in any sense but the most cosmetic. The Russians let the Ukraine go, they let the Baltic go, they let many of their former Central Asian possessions go... This is their natural sphere of influence. Some might find this incredulous, but it is no more incredulous than the Monroe Doctrine, or the US' reaction to the Cuban Missile Crisis... States seek buffers. States seek control of their immediate surroundings. This is a basic national interest.


Lokos, may one remind you it was the collapse of the soviet centrally planned economy that resulted in these chaotic conditions, not "democracy"

And may I remind you that the Russian experiment with democracy effectively ended with the fiscal collapse of 1998, not the collapse of the Soviet centrally planned economy in the early 90s. May I also remind you that the individuals who took the reigns of power - with whom democracy is most associated - to a great degree looted a major power. Looted it. Democracy is discredited in Russia, for better or worse. It's time for pragmatism.


The Australian media, is just as critical of Pakistan and China as they are Russia. To say "not a hint" is just quite frankly bullsh!t. Go read the Australian or watch SBS news, the 7:30 report.

I do watch SBS and read the Sun and the Herald. And none of those fine, fine investigative vehicles has made it a point to question the nature of the Chinese political system, as they, and many other media outlets like them, question the political system of Russia.


Too bad. Dagi are the worst. Only second to chechens. In fact, if one days all хачи suddenly disappeared in Russia, I think the only ones who'd be sorry would be the criminals dealing in car thefts.


That's a very ugly thing to say. It does you no credit whatsoever. Russia should strive for a unified, integrated state - not an ethnically pure Fourth Reich...

Lokos

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

And why should the Russians give up anything they have won through centuries of blood letting

Same reason why Europe has given up most of it's colonies. The rights of natives for self determination maybe.

[Lokos]

That's pretty naive, there, Minardiau. Sure, the day the Americans give up what they've conquered, so will the Russians. Wouldn't wait with baited breath, if I were you.

Lokos

[nagant_m44]

Same reason why Europe has given up most of it's colonies. The rights of natives for self determination maybe.

Why didn't the Federal government let the South leave back during the civil war then?

[CG51]

You are an idiot. ****brains like yourself give Russia the image as a racist paradise. Have fun away from this board.

Doesn't he live in Russia, I mean, unlike a lot of others here?

[TR1]

Doesn't he live in Russia, I mean, unlike a lot of others here?
What are you implying? That his grossly incorrect and derogotory generalization of people from Dagestan (such as myself) has any value aside from the bull**** that it is?

[Mr.K]

bah, I dont need his ****ty zaporozets or w/e POS he drives, my Oka is a chick magnet.
I was trying to go for the stereotype of the "hachikmobile" tuned by Ashot and blasting "chernie glaza". p-)To be honest I'm having mixed reactions, and I'm trying to stay rational and not emotional. On one hand you sound like a great person, and i have friends that are of "kavkazian" origin, on the other I've seen videos of dagestanis,azeris etc. acting like true assholes and beating up russians on a national principle, it happens in schools, it happens in the army.
So you can't really deny that there is no problem on ethnic grounds.

[Lokos]

Doesn't he live in Russia, I mean, unlike a lot of others here?

Asch lives in Russia. As does Maksim. Mamont. And a few other Russians here. Their views and Doublethinker's views do not correlate. What's your point?

Lokos

[TR1]

I was trying to go for the stereotype of the "hachikmobile" tuned by Ashot and blasting "chernie glaza". p-)To be honest I'm having mixed reactions, and I'm trying to stay rational and not emotional. On one hand you sound like a great person, and i have friends that are of "kavkazian" origin, on the other I've seen videos of dagestanis,azeris etc. acting like true assholes and beating up russians on a national principle, it happens in schools, it happens in the army.
So you can't really deny that there is no problem on ethnic grounds.
hehe, ragarding kopeika I know.

Now regarding the ethnic issue. What you say is certainly true. But you must also understand (and Im sure you do) that people from Kavkaz endure endless more crap than Russians do from them. People from kavkaz get beat up everyday, simply because they are not Russians. I know many people (some relatives) who have tried to get away from the army simply on grounds that they could come back with broken limbs or worse, and at the least a terrible experience of hazing and derogotory treatement from their comrades. Of course this isnt just with people from Kavkaz, from Central Asia as well, people who come to Moscow to make some money to send back to their families are treated like sub-humans by some. In personal experience I have witnessed the reaction that Russians sometimes have to a person with a "litzo kavkazkovo nationalnosti"; it is not very pleasant to be treated by your governemt as a second rate citizen.

There are problems certainly from immigrant populations, including those from Kavkaz, but for the most part it is a reaction to the atitude that some Russians (and the governemt) has addopted since the fall of the SU and especially since Chechnya. As they say, assholes are everywhere. It really is sad to see that state in which some ethincities within Russia co-exist today.

[Mr.K]

hehe, ragarding kopeika I know.

Now regarding the ethnic issue. What you say is certainly true. But you must also understand (and Im sure you do) that people from Kavkaz endure endless more crap than Russians do from them. People from kavkaz get beat up everyday, simply because they are not Russians. I know many people (some relatives) who have tried to get away from the army simply on grounds that they could come back with broken limbs or worse, and at the least a terrible experience of hazing and derogotory treatement from their comrades. Of course this isnt just with people from Kavkaz, from Central Asia as well, people who come to Moscow to make some money to send back to their families are treated like sub-humans by some. In personal experience I have witnessed the reaction that Russians sometimes have to a person with a "litzo kavkazkovo nationalnosti"; it is not very pleasant to be treated by your governemt as a second rate citizen.

There are problems certainly from immigrant populations, including those from Kavkaz, but for the most part it is a reaction to the atitude that some Russians (and the governemt) has addopted since the fall of the US and especially since Chechnya. As they say, assholes are everywhere.

Agreed, with everything that you have said. Except I'm sure you meant USSR not "US". Mir! :)
Back to topic now


Asch lives in Russia. As does Maksim. Mamont. And a few other Russians here. Their views and Doublethinker's views do not correlate. What's your point?

Lokos

The point is, "you guys are nothing but soviet apologists living in the west, you are defectors or traitors, and you have no business discussing Russian politics anymore".
I guess we are supposed to cheer to western foreign policy towards Russia on a daily basis, and whip ourselves for the existence of the USSR. While repeating "democracy = good, communism=gulag, captalism=mercedes-benz" mantra and having eternal guilt.

[TR1]

Agreed, with everything that you have said. Except I'm sure you meant USSR not "US". Mir! :)
Back to topic now
Damn you, my edit wasnt fast enough. Mir indeed. we need more of that in Russia. :hug:

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

That's pretty naive, there, Minardiau. Sure, the day the Americans give up what they've conquered, so will the Russians. Wouldn't wait with baited breath, if I were you.

Lokos

Believe it or not the American's have largely given up all of their conquests. Treaties were signed with Native Americans that established relationships and the Hispanic population is slowly retaking through peaceful means the South West.

The UK has given up most of it's colonies peacefully and in most cases the local populations either chose to maintain status quo, became dominions or decided on a republic. Likewise the Dutch, Belgium, and French although they did largely try to keep colonies with force of arms.

Why should Russia be any different?

[TR1]

Believe it or not the American's have largely given up all of their conquests. Treaties were signed with Native Americans that established relationships and the Hispanic population is slowly retaking through peaceful means the South West.

The UK has given up most of it's colonies peacefully and in most cases the local populations either chose to maintain status quo, became dominions or decided on a republic. Likewise the Dutch, Belgium, and French although they did largely try to keep colonies with force of arms.

Why should Russia be any different?
and what "colonies" do u have in mind Min? You'd be surprised, many of those that you would think want to break away actually have the majority of people not supporting sepperatists movement.

[Mr.K]

Well Min, saying that "treaties were signed with Native Americans" is like saying "Communism really works".
The "hispanic population that is slowly retaking the South West" wants to live in the United States of America with all it's rules and regulations.
The Dutch, and the rest of the European nations had colonies abroad with whom they had no direct borders.
Is France giving up Corsica, Alsace, Bretagne? Is Spain giving up the Basque and Catalonia region? Are Poles giving up the territories that they took from Germans after WW2? Is Sardina independant of Italy? What about the Sami in Finland? Is Canada going to give up Quebec? Is Georgia "the beacon of democracy in Caucasus region" officially letting Abkhazia go? Should the "Free and democratic Ukraine" give back Crimea to Russia? After all it was this evil commie's Khrushchev idea. Has Moldova recognized Transdistria? Do you think Belgium will accept being divided? Do you think the UK will let Scotland go if they ask?
As you can see Russia is like everyone else.

[CG51]

Asch lives in Russia. As does Maksim. Mamont. And a few other Russians here. Their views and Doublethinker's views do not correlate. What's your point?

Lokos

I just find it interesting that a lot of the rabid supporters of the old CCCP or the current Russia are not living there. The ones living there I value more than the ones that bailed on their country during hard times.

[TR1]

Well Min, saying that "treaties were signed with Native Americans" is like saying "Communism really works".
The "hispanic population that is slowly retaking the South West" wants to live in the United States of America with all it's rules and regulations.
The Dutch, and the rest of the European nations had colonies abroad with whom they had no direct borders.
Is France giving up Corsica, Alsace, Bretagne? Is Spain giving up the Basque and Catalonia region? Are Poles giving up the territories that they took from Germans after WW2? Is Sardina independant of Italy? What about the Sami in Finland? Is Canada going to give up Quebec? Is Georgia "the beacon of democracy in Caucasus region" officially letting Abkhazia go? Should the "Free and democratic Ukraine" give back Crimea to Russia? After all it was this evil commie's Khrushchev idea. Has Moldova recognized Transdistria? Do you think Belgium will accept being divided? Do you think the UK will let Scotland go if they ask?
As you can see Russia is like everyone else.

I can't think of that and not start laughing uncontrollably.

[I can't think of a name]

There are loyalists and dissenters everywhere. But Russia's leadership must take into account potentialities and worst case scenarios. The 'separatist bug' is currently confined. But that has only been accomplished with massive blood letting and divisive politicking. A truly democratic Russia, with a regional department system endowed with significant power (i.e. decentralization) would most likely ruin that country in fairly short order.

The boundaries of the Russian Federation were established through empire building (in a historical sense). Many of its current possessions are, to a variable degree, colonial - if such terms can be safely applied in this case.

Integration, as I see it, is not far enough along. Nor is it being aggressively pushed anymore, given the proliferation of mosques and regional autonomies in both education and culture. As long as the Russian Federation is a community of nations, as opposed to a national community, it will never be able to afford grass roots democracy.

On a greater scale, this is exactly what happened to the Soviet Union. True democratization (rather, the process thereof) dismembered it almost immediately.

Lokos

I agree with you, this is a modern nation-state problem. Multi-culturalism if unchecked will break Russia apart, like a few Western nations will realize in the future.

However Democracy is not the issue in that case, it is strictly the post-modern multicultural theory.

[I can't think of a name]

Believe it or not the American's have largely given up all of their conquests. Treaties were signed with Native Americans that established relationships and the Hispanic population is slowly retaking through peaceful means the South West.

The UK has given up most of it's colonies peacefully and in most cases the local populations either chose to maintain status quo, became dominions or decided on a republic. Likewise the Dutch, Belgium, and French although they did largely try to keep colonies with force of arms.

Why should Russia be any different?


The South West was never "Hispanic" in the sense of all the Aztec people that are crossing the boarder because the Mexican government does not want them. The "Mexicans" in the Southwest were Spanish missionaries and a token amount of native peoples from what is now Mexico. Those two groups along with Native American tribes.

Not a lot of people lived in the southwest and these Aztec and Mayan decedents claiming California is Mexico is not historically accurate.

[asch]

I just find it interesting that a lot of the rabid supporters of the old CCCP or the current Russia are not living there. The ones living there I value more than the ones that bailed on their country during hard times.

this not negate one simple fact that Doublethinker is one little racist fvck, who discredit other Russians here by his idiotic racist rants.

[Doublethinker]

You are an idiot. ****brains like yourself give Russia the image as a racist paradise. Have fun away from this board.

Infantile, agressive nations with their deprave behaviour TURN Russia into a racist paradise.

If you ever served in the army here, you'd know I'm telling the truth. The biggest conflicts are always between Russians and Dagi. I'm yet to meet a Russian soldier who'd say anything different about caucasians, especially dagi.

[TR1]

Degenerate nations with their deprave behaviour TURN Russia into a racist paradise.

And I'm not an idiot for sure - if you ever served in the army here, you'd know I'm telling the truth. The biggest conflicts are always between Russians and Dagi. I'm yet to meet a Russian soldier who'd say anything different about caucasians, especially dagi.
and he continues. Please do continue to enlighten us with ur rants about "degenerate nations with their deprave behavior".:bash:

[Doublethinker]

and he continues. Please do continue to enlighten us with ur rants about "degenerate nations with their deprave behavior".:bash:

You nicely ignored the part where I cite the opinion of people who served in the army. Since army acts as a sort of a test. Whereas in Germany its supposed to united the people of the East and West, in Russia ethnic minorities stick to their own and band into racial subgroups within in the army, and God have mercy upon Russians who find themselves in a Dagi-dominated unit or regiment.

Real racism starts from very real racial clashes here, not because I come to your favourite web-site to spoil your party dedicated to people's friendship within the Russian Federation. The relations between Russians and Caucasians vary from slightly negative to total hatred and that's the truth, and even you know it, even if you don't want to accept it.

[Doublethinker]

That's a very ugly thing to say. It does you no credit whatsoever. Russia should strive for a unified, integrated state - not an ethnically pure Fourth Reich...


Why does some false dichotomy always spring up in discussions like this? Why is it always multiethnic, multinational RF vs. 'Fourth Reich', like there's no third, fourth, fifth option?

A national democracy with strong ethnocentric andanti-imigration policies would be only one of them.

All empires collapse, so will Russia. The question is, for how long will we clinge to the past, instead of moving on, to sort out our national destiny, rather then toying around with the 'white man's burden'.

[TR1]

You nicely ignored the part where I cite the opinion of people who served in the army. Since army acts as a sort of a test. Whereas in Germany its supposed to united the people of the East and West, in Russia ethnic minorities stick to their own and band into racial subgroups within in the army, and God have mercy upon Russians who find themselves in a Dagi-dominated unit or regiment.

Real racism starts from very real racial clashes here, not because I come to your favourite web-site to spoil your party dedicated to people's friendship within the Russian Federation. The relations between Russians and Caucasians vary from slightly negative to total hatred and that's the truth, and even you know it, even if you don't want to accept it.

Funny. I believe I did mention the army. And if you had anything in your head, aside from your racist bull****, you would realize why non-Russians (espesially people from kavkax) band into groups, as you so eliquently put. IF they didnt, they get the **** beaten out of them. Not in all cases of course, but there is a reason they stick together in the army. and no, that reason is not to beat up Russians because of some hatred they inherently feel towards them. oh and by the way, there is nothing like a "Dagi dominated" groups. If you had the slightest of knowlege of that are, you would know that it is itself split into many smaller subpeoples, with considerably diffirent languages and cultures. So, no, no Dagi groups. Maybe Avar groups, or dargin groups.

Now, you're not ruining anyone's little party about the wonderfull friendship of peoples within Russia. There is very little of this friendship, thanks to people like yourself, and primarily thanks to Russia and the men who have led it since 91. I mentioned that little people have a desire to leave the federation. that is true, and will remain true in the forseeable future, despite the often second class citizen treatment they get in their own country.

Do you honestly think that people from Dagestan decided to have some inherent hatred against Russians? even after the utter mess and ****hole that Russia created on its own soil in Chechnya (which spilt over and continues to have serious affects on Dagestan), after the practical decision of the gov to choose the entire Kavkaz and its extermely varied population as the new target for racism, sorry to spoil your party Doublethinker, but even after that there does not exist the sort of ineherent hatred and negative emotion in the majority of Dagestan's peoples. most of the violence that you mention is nothing but a response to the treatment these people get in Russia. you are lashing out against something that doesnt exists in the magnitude you make it out to be.

[Lokos]

Believe it or not the American's have largely given up all of their conquests. Treaties were signed with Native Americans that established relationships and the Hispanic population is slowly retaking through peaceful means the South West.


LOL. I think you'll find Americans here may find your views somewhat... inaccurate.

Lokos

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Each person has a different opinion on what has happened in history.

Another point is that Russia is not unique and the problems faced by Russia have been shared by many nations. Perhaps Russia should look out and see how a federal system works as opposed to centralized authority in Moscow.
It is possible to have a large landmass, open, fair and just elections, REAL freedoms, without having a strong central government. Australia, Canada and the US are perfect examples of this. US had a major hiccup but which nations hasn't had a civil war.

[Lokos]

Australia, Canada and the United States are also a) primarily Christian territories (a common religious polity) and b) primarily Ango-Saxon/Germanic/European countries. They share language, culture, tradition and historical consciousness. This doesn't translate well to the territories of the Russian Federation.

There are entire regions of Russia where the Russians are small minorities. It doesn't work. It's an imperial system. True democracy dismantles it.

Lokos

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

But who's to say that if regional governments were setup where they can to a point look after their own affairs but leave matters of national importance (economy, military, foreign affairs) to Moscow it won't work?

It's only been relatively recently with the advent of globalism that Australian states have taken a more backwards step especially under Howard.

[Lokos]

Well, one only has to look at the example of Chechnya and increased hostility in Ingushetia to know that Moscow's rule stands only insofar as the central government is willing to pour 'development' funds into these territories, and enough army personnel and materiel to curb separatist inclinations.

Autonomy... probably... wouldn't work. I'd say that there is a huge potential for outright separatism. I think that it's that very potential the Russians aren't willing to gamble with. Why take risks? Why roll the dice and hope for the best?

Instead, they can clamp down, increase the effectiveness of their deterrents, and make sure that threats to their rule are minimal. This is what the US did. It works. It's a solid system. Now that doesn't mean I'm saying it's morally sound. I speak only of practicality.

Lokos

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I agree at present Russia does need a strong central authority. It still lacks the culture of responsible government which is something the Anglo-Saxon-Norman world has had for hundreds of years.

But as this responsible government grows, gains the trust of the people and institutions are setup in the regions that create an effective civil service power should slowly be transferred as it does allow for regional differences to be implemented thus decreasing regional discontent which causes the problems to begin with.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Exactly why the Russian Federation must be completely overhauled. I'd favour an independent Caucasus with some puppet figure in power, like in African ex-colonies, pumping oil and killing each other, as well as locking up the border, to make sure no хачи get out.



Infantile, agressive nations with their deprave behaviour TURN Russia into a racist paradise.


X2
We have enough of representatives of "brother caucasian nations" in Latvia too. :-( Azeri, armenians...

[Flamming_Python]

To hell with this racism and anyone who believes in it. I always got along with Caucasians.

[Kak]

Racism should have no part in the successor state of the Soviet Union, a country that prided itself on its diversity and multiculturalism.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Racism should have no part in the successor state of the Soviet Union, a country that prided itself on its diversity and multiculturalism.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[GodlessAmerica!]

To hell with this racism and anyone who believes in it. I always got along with Caucasians.

Living in UK? Sure you did.

[Flamming_Python]

Living in UK? Sure you did.

Or it could be just that i'm not a racist.

[Mr.K]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

I won't give you a 2 page lecture "à la Lokos", but internationalism played a an important part in soviet ideology. A soviet citizen, was soviet first, and then Russian, Ukranian, Chechen Etc. Garry Kasparov for instance is half armenian, half jewish and born in Azerbaijan. There was a great number of mixed families. Cultures and languages were preserved, as well as the nationalities in the soviet passport (which was a double-edged sword) Mind you that at the end of Perestrokia local conflicts and pogroms sparked everywhere, under the SU this was impossible. Chechens and Russians did not kill eachother, nor did Georgians an Abkhazians, Armenians and Azeris weren't fighting for Nagorny Karabah and Armenian's weren't violently chased from Baku. There was no "Russian Marches" in Moscow.

[zg18]

I won't give you a 2 page lecture "à la Lokos", but internationalism played a an important part in soviet ideology. A soviet citizen, was soviet first, and then Russian, Ukranian, Chechen Etc. Garry Kasparov for instance is half armenian, half jewish and born in Azerbaijan. There was a great number of mixed families. Cultures and languages were preserved, as well as the nationalities in the soviet passport (which was a double-edged sword) Mind you that at the end of Perestrokia local conflicts and pogroms sparked everywhere, under the SU this was impossible. Chechens and Russians did not kill eachother, nor did Georgians an Abkhazians, Armenians and Azeris weren't fighting for Nagorny Karabah and Armenian's weren't violently chased from Baku. There was no "Russian Marches" in Moscow.

It reminds alot on former Yugoslavia.

[TR1]

You would quickly become one, If you had a chance to live side by side with these troglodytes.

ahh another racist prick. Not enough time worshipping the SS in Riga I see, so you take our your inferiority complex on people from Kavkaz and central asia.

[GodlessAmerica!]

ahh another racist prick. Not enough time worshipping the SS in Riga I see, so you take our your inferiority complex on people from Kavkaz and central asia.

Change your nickname, чурка! :)

[TR1]

Change your nickname, чурка! :)

my point is proven.

[Doublethinker]

Funny. I believe I did mention the army. And if you had anything in your head, aside from your racist bull****, you would realize why non-Russians (espesially people from kavkax) band into groups, as you so eliquently put. IF they didnt, they get the **** beaten out of them.


What a load of crap. What Russian soldiers really lack is a feeling of national unity and natural xenophobia with regards to other ethncities. If you had any idea what you are talking about, you'd know that churki first and foremost try to gain privelegies, not protect themselves.

They start pushing thing cultural 'pecularities' - along the lines of "we, real men, don't mop the floors - that's women's work". And when the old-timers, деды, try to force the newbie churki to do the same work Russians force other Russians to do, the whole horde jumps in, starting a riot. And after they establish, that 'real men' don't mop floors, they soon also insist, that 'real men' don't clean toilets, don't do dishes, don't work, when the whole company is sent to.

And Russians are too soft to simply get a grip on themselves, and fight it out, beating the **** out of all dagis to make them obey the same rules. Russians don't stick for each other, nor do they help each other during such racial conflicts, whereas when one dag gets in trouble you can expect a hell lot of them to come in five minutes. So its not uncommon for dagi who make up 10-15% percent of a company to dominate it.

This is the only real reason they band together - to establish their superiority.



If you had the slightest of knowlege of that are, you would know that it is itself split into many smaller subpeoples, with considerably diffirent languages and cultures. So, no, no Dagi groups. Maybe Avar groups, or dargin groups.


The thing is, it is completely irrelevant. In the army its 'Dagi' vs. ' Russians'. Dagi includes all the groups you mentioned, including chechens, azeri, other muslim minorities, while 'Russians' include Russians, Byelorussians, Ukrainians, all peoples of mixed slavic descent, all Orthodox groups, sometimes tatars too.




Now, you're not ruining anyone's little party about the wonderfull friendship of peoples within Russia. There is very little of this friendship, thanks to people like yourself, and primarily thanks to Russia and the men who have led it since 91.


Not really. If you want to be honest, than say since XIXth century. Russian Empire, the Soviet Union and now Russia have been constantly leading a war on the Caucasus, first a war of conquest and then a war of suppresion.

Caucasians never were and never will be accepted into the Russian society, nor do they even want to.

The cultural difference and incompatibility is so great, that there's simply no way for us to live side by side, unless we are all supressed by the yoke of totalitarianism, when people are simply forced to behave the way the state wants them to.

Caucasians seem to be most peaceful and quite when surrounded by similar people, angry, xenophobic and full of hatred, like Kazakh. When chechens were relocated to Kazakhstan and tried to force the local populace to play by their rules, the kazakh and Kyrgiz started such a massive onslaught, that elders of chechen villages travelled to Kazakh auls, asking to stop the hostilities.





I mentioned that little people have a desire to leave the federation.


Yeah, sure. Why leave it, when you can feed on it. Even chechens realized it now, look at Kadyrov.



that is true, and will remain true in the forseeable future, despite the often second class citizen treatment they get in their own country.


Oh, cut the crap! 'Second class citizens' my ass! I live here, I see these 'second class citizens' studying in elite universities to become 'managers' - not really studying but buying their way through exams, actually; I see them engaging heavily in organized crime. I'm yet to see a poor chechen, not driving some sort of a fancy car in Moscow.

The real 'second class citizens' have to endure all this humiliation, tolerate slave trade of Russian soldiers on the Caucasus, rape of Russian women, disprespect for Russians in general for the sake of 'greatness of Russian state'.



Do you honestly think that people from Dagestan decided to have some inherent hatred against Russians?


No, I don't really think that they 'decided' to have it. I think, this hatred is woven into their warrior-hunter-thief culture.



even after the utter mess and ****hole that Russia created on its own soil in Chechnya (which spilt over and continues to have serious affects on Dagestan), after the practical decision of the gov to choose the entire Kavkaz and its extermely varied population as the new target for racism,
sorry to spoil your party Doublethinker, but even after that there does not exist the sort of ineherent hatred and negative emotion in the majority of Dagestan's peoples. most of the violence that you mention is nothing but a response to the treatment these people get in Russia. you are lashing out against something that doesnt exists in the magnitude you make it out to be.

What 'treatment'? They get ELITE conditions - the only thing they can whine about is that cops sometimes check their passports. Well... DUH... there is war going on in the Caucasus, so no wonder.

[phoebus]

X2
We have enough of representatives of "brother caucasian nations" in Latvia too. :-( Azeri, armenians...

Armenians causing troubles in Latvia? :roll:

[GodlessAmerica!]

Armenians causing troubles in Latvia? :roll:
You call me a liar?

[phoebus]

You call me a liar?

Err... nope, just asking and waiting for you to analyse your thesis based on facts. Go on PM if you wish, since I don't want to derail this thread. :)

[phoebus]

Oh, cut the crap! 'Second class citizens' my ass! I live here, I see these 'second class citizens' studying in elite universities to become 'managers' - not really studying but buying their way through exams, actually; I see them engaging heavily in organized crime. I'm yet to see a poor chechen, not driving some sort of a fancy car in Moscow.

So every single Dagestani and Chechen in Moscow belongs to this uber-financial elite of spoiled uni students and/or managers?

Nice.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Err... nope, just asking and waiting for you to analyse your thesis based on facts. Go on PM if you wish, since I don't want to derail this thread. :)

Yes, among ethnic Latvians and Russians there are much more honest people than among Armenians and Azeri.

[TR1]

Ok Doublethinker, you can wallow in your load of utter ****, and convince yourself of your racist, biggoted, and overall laughable ideas and perceptions. Although I do have to do add that your view of the treatment that "Dagis" get in Moscow is absolutely hilarious.

[Elemental666]

Change your nickname, чурка! :)


You call me a liar?

I call you the biggest ****ing moron to ever visit this site.

Have a nice day.

[GodlessAmerica!]

I call you the biggest ****ing moron to ever visit this site.

Have a nice day.

хуй соси урод

[Elemental666]

хуй соси урод

rofl

Took you a lot of thought?

[TR1]

rofl

Took you a lot of thought?

Hey now lets be nice. Such a statement is an accomplishment for someone of his mental capacity.

[GodlessAmerica!]

rofl

Took you a lot of thought?

Im surprised that you understood it at all, ****ing deserter.:)

[Elemental666]

Hey now lets be nice. Such a statement is an accomplishment for someone of his mental capacity.

I'm nothing but nice today, sugar <3.


Im surprised that you understood it at all, ****ing deserter.:)

Bah. Keep digging yourself a hole. Peace out.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Hey now lets be nice. Such a statement is an accomplishment for someone of his mental capacity.

For your knowledge I have IQ above average.

[Doublethinker]

So every single Dagestani and Chechen in Moscow belongs to this uber-financial elite of spoiled uni students and/or managers?

Nice.

Donno. But surely I have not seen any "second rate citizens" (whatever that's supposed to mean - enslaved, humiliated, deprived of human rights??) among them.

[Doublethinker]

Ok Doublethinker, you can wallow in your load of utter ****,


Nice to know, that you have little to add to support your cause, so you prefer to duck out of the arguement. Probably, you know little about Russia at all.



and convince yourself of your racist, biggoted, and overall laughable ideas and perceptions.
Although I do have to do add that your view of the treatment that "Dagis" get in Moscow is absolutely hilarious.

Sure, everything that doesn't fit your nice little pattern with poor dagis simply 'sticking up for themselves' is a lie. "We, dagi, just defend ourselves. We are eternal victims. Everyone tries to offend us".

I could fall for that, if I didn't know better.

[dimasorokine]

TheRussian1,

All the racism and hatred aside, lets be reasonable here and take a look at the “problem” from both sides. Let’s be realistic…

Why do Caucasians have a hate and dislike towards ethnic Russians? Well, the Russians can treat them as second rate citizens or illegal aliens outright, Caucasians are often harassed and arrested by Militsia just for being Kavkazi, and beaten up by ethnic Russians for the same reasons. Add to that the Chechen war and its easy to see why people from the Caucus can dislike and hate ethnic Russians. This is why they stick together, travel in packs and fight back – right?

So the Caucasian are oppressed and discriminated against, they are a minority trying to survive in a nation full of racists…yes and no, they are largely to blame for the attitude of ethnic Russians towards them.

Let’s look at things from a Russian perspective shall we? What bothers the Russians and makes them have a negative attitude towards Caucasians?

For one, the attitude of many Caucasians – a very arrogant patriotism about where they are from, and their need to publicly display it and shove it down people’s throats (national dances in subways, raising of flags outside of Kremlin, nationalistic chants, arrogance and disrespect towards Russian women etc.). And their complete disrespect for Russia and Russians. – This is the equivalent of Russians treating Caucasians as second class.

Now let’s look at the packs Caucasians form and often travel in order to feel safe – these packs are perfectly justifiable, as a lone Chechen or Azeri can easily get beaten up. However, once the people in packs feel safe – their attitude towards ethnic Russians changes as well. They begin to be loud, arrogant, disrespectful, troublesome and sometimes violent towards ethnic Russians who are alone…it no longer becomes a “lets hang out together and feel safe” crowd, but a crowd with a “We own this place and no one can f*ck with us” attitude.

And if you can imagine a disrespectful, nationalistic, racist and sometimes violent pack of “non-Russians” hanging out on “RussianLand” paints Caucasians in a VERY negative light – Just imagine Loud, proud and disrespectful Russians roaming around the streets of Dagestan.

And please, what ever you do don’t equate the Russian government and Army with the Russian people. Shamil Basaev is quite popular on the Chechen and Kavkazi forums, but most Chechens don’t have anything to do with him.

-Dima

[TR1]

TheRussian1,

All the racism and hatred aside, lets be reasonable here and take a look at the “problem” from both sides. Let’s be realistic…

Certainly!

Why do Caucasians have a hate and dislike towards ethnic Russians? Well, the Russians can treat them as second rate citizens or illegal aliens outright, Caucasians are often harassed and arrested by Militsia just for being Kavkazi, and beaten up by ethnic Russians for the same reasons. Add to that the Chechen war and its easy to see why people from the Caucus can dislike and hate ethnic Russians. This is why they stick together, travel in packs and fight back – right?

All of that is correct,

So the Caucasian are oppressed and discriminated against, they are a minority trying to survive in a nation full of racists…yes and no, they are largely to blame for the attitude of ethnic Russians towards them.

I wouldnt say the whole nation is full of racists,

Let’s look at things from a Russian perspective shall we? What bothers the Russians and makes them have a negative attitude towards Caucasians?

The sad thing is just a few decades ago none of these racist and ridiculous attitudes existed on both sides,

For one, the attitude of many Caucasians – a very arrogant patriotism about where they are from, and their need to publicly display it and shove it down people’s throats (national dances in subways, raising of flags outside of Kremlin, nationalistic chants, arrogance and disrespect towards Russian women etc.). And their complete disrespect for Russia and Russians. – This is the equivalent of Russians treating Caucasians as second class.

certainly this does happen in some cases. not in all to be sure. just as not all russians display derogotory attitudes towards non-russians.

Now let’s look at the packs Caucasians form and often travel in order to feel safe – these packs are perfectly justifiable, as a lone Chechen or Azeri can easily get beaten up. However, once the people in packs feel safe – their attitude towards ethnic Russians changes as well. They begin to be loud, arrogant, disrespectful, troublesome and sometimes violent towards ethnic Russians who are alone…it no longer becomes a “lets hang out together and feel safe” crowd, but a crowd with a “We own this place and no one can f*ck with us” attitude.

of course there are groups of complete assholes and racists from the Kavkaz, I would never deny that. I might add though that this mentality appears not to a small degree because of the similar treatment these people receive from some native Russians.

And if you can imagine a disrespectful, nationalistic, racist and sometimes violent pack of “non-Russians” hanging out on “RussianLand” paints Caucasians in a VERY negative light – Just imagine Loud, proud and disrespectful Russians roaming around the streets of Dagestan.

Also understood. But the beggining of the anti-kavkaz attitude that the government (yes I know that the people and gov are not the same thing) and some people actively exhibit occured before any numerous incidents entailing non -russians acting in the behavior you just described.

And please, what ever you do don’t equate the Russian government and Army with the Russian people. Shamil Basaev is quite popular on the Chechen and Kavkazi forums, but most Chechens don’t have anything to do with him.

As I said, in my experience, and in my strong belief the majority of Russian people do not inherently treat Caucasians like crap or think terribly ill of them. Some Russian forums are full of posters claiming that all children over 10 in Chechnya should have been killed and the rest reeducated, but of course most native Russians don't have such moronic thoughts in their head.


-Dima

and thank you for the cool and reasonable attitude dima,

[asch]

Doublethinker, i have a question for you:
do you have some first-hand information about tensions of particulary Avar or Dagi groups with ethnic Russians in army?
i.e. do you serve?

[Mr.K]

In some NS livejournal about russian teens getting their ass kicked by people from sunny Kavkaz there was one intelligent comment and it went something like this" What do you expect, they do sports, practice martial arts, wrestling, while ourss drink beer and play counter-strike".

[Lokos]

This thread has reached terminal velocity on a tangent. Let it die.

Lokos

[California Joe]

I agree. For chrissakes fellas, I've just started to figure out which ethicities dislike each other in the Balkans. This opens a whole new can of worms.