A German's point of view on Islam

[mohica]

"A German's point of view on Islam" by Dr. Emanual Tanay, Psychiatrist


A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War ll owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism.

'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history.

It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homo******s. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about
20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War ll was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just ignores this, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems of expand. Let us hope that thousands, world wide, read this - think about it.


Emanuel Tanay, M.D.

[Clearday-TRForce]

There are many parts that we can't agreed with Mr. Emanuel T.

with best shot by the written is must be fanatics rule a religion sentences...But the real fact these fanatics only control the power in their ignorant population of areas to get benefits under conflicted and unsolved situations. Also these events must be unsolved and unstabilised to continue their position. In the name of a religion,Islam. But surely,not a religion like that.

Islam is not a part of ignorance, fanatics or something else who defends honour killings and any killings. Not easy to explain just you want to write.

Islam is a purely peaceful,logical book that I have ever read. You can believe in or not.





regards.
CDTRF

[Dasein]

First, this piece perpetuates the myth of Muslim silence, when this is simply not true. Many Muslims have spoken out against terrorism and extremism. Perhaps the better question is why they do not get more publicity in the mainstream media. It seems it is mostly conservative outlets which complain the loudest about Muslim silence, but where are they when it comes to helping give a voice to those who do speak out?

Second, the author characterizes pretty much any sort of undesirable behavior as extremist Islam, while ignoring things like pre-Islamic cultural traditions, tribal and ethnic conflicts and other causes of violence and suffering which are not a result of Islam. While radical Islam is responsible for some, it should not be blamed where not responsible. Misplacing blame makes finding workable solutions that much more difficult.

[George Winston]

Since this is a piece written by a Jewish author about the Islamic bogey man, how bout for the sake of balance we start posting articles by Islamic authors about the Jewish bogey-man?. Haven't we seen enough of this? How many times will we here it in tonight's debate? Radical Islam, Radical Islam, bogey man, bogey man blah, blah, blah. Fear and hate are such useful tools.

[mohica]

First, this piece perpetuates the myth of Muslim silence, when this is simply not true. Many Muslims have spoken out against terrorism and extremism. Perhaps the better question is why they do not get more publicity in the mainstream media. It seems it is mostly conservative outlets which complain the loudest about Muslim silence, but where are they when it comes to helping give a voice to those who do speak out?

Myth? What planet are you on?


Second, the author characterizes pretty much any sort of undesirable behavior as extremist Islam, while ignoring things like pre-Islamic cultural traditions, tribal and ethnic conflicts and other causes of violence and suffering which are not a result of Islam. While radical Islam is responsible for some, it should not be blamed where not responsible. Misplacing blame makes finding workable solutions that much more difficult.

Uhhh, I think your reading comprehension is lacking. The obvious crux of his "essay" is the brutality of Nazism first and foremost, and then he makes comparisons to not only radical Islam, but any totalitarian system of rule. I don't think the following fall under the catagory as being Islamic - Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, etc. It is plain as day. You only wanted to glean out of the text what you wanted to. Wake up.

[WarDancer]

Personally, I though it was a truly well written statement and contains alot of truths that Muslims refuse to believe about the religion and where it is heading. As for the "moderate" Muslim who speaks out against the fanatacism, where are they and what are their names and place in society? Im talking about Muslim leaders, scholars and those in the religeous circles. Havent seen nor heard from them so please educate me.

[Galil Stein]

Personally, I though it was a truly well written statement and contains alot of truths that Muslims refuse to believe about the religion and where it is heading. As for the "moderate" Muslim who speaks out against the fanatacism, where are they and what are their names and place in society? Im talking about Muslim leaders, scholars and those in the religeous circles. Havent seen nor heard from them so please educate me.

Thats because they do not exist.

[Mu-Meson]

Thats because they do not exist.
That is, I am sorry to say, a pretty damn ignorant statement. They do exist, but they are certainly not being helped by anyone enough to be noticed. In Canada for example, the group that gets noticed is the CIC (Canadian Islamic Congress). They ARE a bunch of fanatics. Anti-semitic, anti-democracy, anti-freedom of speech, pro-suicide bombing etc etc. You know the kind. They are in every western country.
However, there are those who are different. In Canada, there is a group that doesn't get into the newspapers, and who support the kind of society everyone here would like to live. They are the Muslim Canadian Congress. http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/
They opposed letting people wear burkas when voting, they oppose public funded madrassas, oppose allowing Islamic banking, support Canada's involvement in A-stan, supported freeing the British teacher in Sudan, etc etc.
Their mission statement is:

The Muslim Canadian Congress is a grassroots organization that provides a voice to Muslims who are not represented by existing organizations; organizations that are either sectarian or ethnocentric, largely authoritarian, and influenced by a fear of modernity and an aversion to joy.These are the groups that should be supported, but are not.

PS I don't actually have any connection with the MCC, despite me coming off as a total advertiser for them. I just wish more people could see these groups in the public sphere.

[Dercius]

Moderate Muslims???? Do they exist???

May be, the problem is that if they express their critical ideas, points of view or say something about this "religion of love an peace:bash:", religious leaders will come with a Fatwa and they will have to run for their lives like Salman Rushdi.

[WarDancer]

That is, I am sorry to say, a pretty damn ignorant statement. They do exist, but they are certainly not being helped by anyone enough to be noticed. In Canada for example, the group that gets noticed is the CIC (Canadian Islamic Congress). They ARE a bunch of fanatics. Anti-semitic, anti-democracy, anti-freedom of speech, pro-suicide bombing etc etc. You know the kind. They are in every western country.
However, there are those who are different. In Canada, there is a group that doesn't get into the newspapers, and who support the kind of society everyone here would like to live. They are the Muslim Canadian Congress. http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/
They opposed letting people wear burkas when voting, they oppose public funded madrassas, oppose allowing Islamic banking, support Canada's involvement in A-stan, supported freeing the British teacher in Sudan, etc etc.
Their mission statement is:
These are the groups that should be supported, but are not.

PS I don't actually have any connection with the MCC, despite me coming off as a total advertiser for them. I just wish more people could see these groups in the public sphere.

Unfortunately, they are the exception and not the rule. When you see the Arab streets filled with thousands of people calling for the killing of cartoonists and newspaper editors for simply printing an image of Muhammad or writing a fictional book whether it was in a demeaning or praising manner, it kinda makes you wonder.

Now some may say, "You shouldnt belittle the prophet Muhammad, that goes beyond indecency". Well guess what? It works both ways. When Amadinnerjacket says the Holocaust didnt happen it has the same affect with Jews, only difference is you wont see the streets of Israel filled with thousands of people calling for Jihad against non-believers.

[Mu-Meson]

^^^ I ain't saying nothing about the Arab street. As far as I can tell all of them are fanatics. The point is that moderates do exist where they are protected. So while western laws and freedoms assist the nutbars, they also help the moderates. The problem is the media ignores the moderates because some imam frothing at the mouth about a cartoon is more interesting than some moderate dude in a suit arguing politely and reasonably against introducing Islamic banking.

[PANKRASTIS]

Perhaps the most interesting thing i find in the article written by
Emanual Tanay, is not his claim on Islam, as i have my own personal feelings & views on this based on my own personal experience & interaction with Muslims from various countries & regions.

But that he reminds us, & thnks to MOHICA that along with the six million Jews & others that died within the camps, there were another 12 million Chineese killed by the Japanese that we in fact know but choose not to remember & the 20 million killed by the Russian Communists pre-WWII and how many died during??
And it is good to be reminded of the cost of China's Industrial Revolution under Mao (70million est) when we think of the word Holocaust.

[afreu]

Myth? What planet are you on?



Uhhh, I think your reading comprehension is lacking. The obvious crux of his "essay" is the brutality of Nazism first and foremost, and then he makes comparisons to not only radical Islam, but any totalitarian system of rule. I don't think the following fall under the catagory as being Islamic - Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, etc. It is plain as day. You only wanted to glean out of the text what you wanted to. Wake up.

How the hell can he compare Facisim, the Rwandan genocide and Islamic fanatics. Those are three things so different, that this comparison alone disqualifies his whole statement!




And it is good to be reminded of the cost of China's Industrial Revolution under Mao (70million est) when we think of the word Holocaust.Yes and why not think of the millions killed by drugs and smoking. Gives the whole thing some perspective, doesn it?

Relativism at its best. The Holocaust is the holocaust and has nothing to do with Stalin or Mao!

[Clearday-TRForce]

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/



And I notice they have used a photo in their website from Turkey.

OrtaKoy Mosque

http://wowturkey.com/tr87/k_ortakoy6843.jpghttp://wowturkey.com/tr12/k_osman_k_ortakoycamii.jpg
http://wowturkey.com/tr34/k_okhan_de_lan_ortakoy3.jpghttp://wowturkey.com/tr43/k_dorukcafer_MVC381X.jpg




regards,
CDTRF

[seruriermarshal]

A man can leave Islam after he join it ?

[Clearday-TRForce]

A man can leave Islam after he join it ?


anytime when he wants...Islam doesn't care who believe in itself or not and also who wants to be outside of it.

[PANKRASTIS]

A man can leave Islam after he join it ?

Yes, and in fact it happens often by muslims living specificaly in western countries, but more often they practice a loose version of Islam (more liberal).

This is often frowned iupon by their elders & family & it is mainly the males who can get away with it. Woman have a much harder time leaving Islam, expecially from observant families & often loose contact with family entirely for fear both actual & perceived of violent repercussions.

[mohica]

How the hell can he compare Facisim, the Rwandan genocide and Islamic fanatics. Those are three things so different, that this comparison alone disqualifies his whole statement!

What about the West, the cradle of democracy and fredom? But no wait, what's about Abu Ghuraib and Guantanmo and all the other atrocities Western troops comitted during the last six years. Those are not the works of a few exceptions. And than the silent mass. That is surely representative of the whole West.

Yes and why not think of the millions killed by drugs and smoking. Gives the whole thing some perspective, doesn it?

Relativism at its best. The Holocaust is the holocaust and has nothing to do with Stalin or Mao!

WTF? Dude, you obviously are of limited comprehension. Try another thread that is a bit easier for you to understand, much less respond to. Your post is the most jumbled up mish mash of unitelligible crap I have read yet.

[afreu]

WTF? Dude, you obviously are of limited comprehension. Try another thread that is a bit easier for you to understand, much less respond to. Your post is the most jumbled up mish mash of unitelligible crap I have read yet.

My response was appropiate to the crap you posted.

[mohica]

My response was appropiate to the crap you posted.


Again, go somewhere that you have even the slightest chance of understanding the information presented. Perhaps Disney on line will have something for one of your limited ability.

[heintzX]

Now some may say, "You shouldnt belittle the prophet Muhammad, that goes beyond indecency". Well guess what? It works both ways. When Amadinnerjacket says the Holocaust didnt happen it has the same affect with Jews, only difference is you wont see the streets of Israel filled with thousands of people calling for Jihad against non-believers.

No,but next thing you see is israeli f15 over your head droping bombs on "selective" targets........

[The_Android]

Thats because they do not exist.

This statment is just appalling.

Do you know what happens to people in Iraq who opposes terrorists, to Afghanis openly speaking against the Taliban, or to Palestinians speaking out against the extremists? I can name countless other places where muslims run into extreme trouble if they oppose the extremists. They are seen as traitors and "zionist agents" by the fanatics, risking not only their own life but their whole families too. If the option is to be beheaded for taking a stand, is it surprising many are too scared to say anything?

[Lokos]

...Islam doesn't care who believe in itself or not and also who wants to be outside of it.

It's a proselytising religion, which makes your statement a lie.

Lokos

[afreu]

Again, go somewhere that you have even the slightest chance of understanding the information presented. Perhaps Disney on line will have something for one of your limited ability.

I think your posting-history speaks for itself.

[Dasein]

Myth? What planet are you on?

It is a myth - there are many examples of Muslims speaking out against terrorism, oppression and other negative aspects of conservative Muslim society. However, they are rarely given the level of coverage as the fanatics. If a few dozen people decide to hold a death to Israel and America rally in downtown London or New York, that will be front page news and will be covered extensively in blogs and forums like this. If a few dozen people hold a rally for women's rights in Muslim countries, how much media coverage will it get?


Uhhh, I think your reading comprehension is lacking. The obvious crux of his "essay" is the brutality of Nazism first and foremost, and then he makes comparisons to not only radical Islam, but any totalitarian system of rule. I don't think the following fall under the catagory as being Islamic - Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, etc. It is plain as day. You only wanted to glean out of the text what you wanted to. Wake up.

I was referring specifically to this paragraph:



It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homo******s. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the 'silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.

Here, the author is clearly blaming all of these issues on Islamic fanaticism, while ignoring other causes like ethnic, tribal and political rivalries. A good question to ask is, if the participants were not Muslims, is there still a good chance of this behavior occurring? In some cases, no, but in many others, yes. Tribal and ethnic violence in Africa is by no means limited to Muslims, for example.

[Hollis]

anytime when he wants...Islam doesn't care who believe in itself or not and also who wants to be outside of it.


Say what, What does Sharia Law say? Not what you water it down to say. Leaving Islam is a NO NO.

BTW, I have read the Qur'an and studied. Your statement about it, puts you in a questionable light. Then now your ignoring Sharia Law. Is this Al Taquia?

Look at the Radical Islamic clerics who use the Qur'an, Hadiths and Sharia Law to tell their followers to do those horrible acts. I think you are demonstrating the author's point.

[Hollis]

It is a myth - there are many examples of Muslims speaking out against terrorism, oppression and other negative aspects of conservative Muslim society. However, they are rarely given the level of coverage as the fanatics. If a few dozen people decide to hold a death to Israel and America rally in downtown London or New York, that will be front page news and will be covered extensively in blogs and forums like this. If a few dozen people hold a rally for women's rights in Muslim countries, how much media coverage will it get?

I agree with you and for non-Muslims that is part of the problem in separating the issue. Either the media or ?? does not give sufficient credit for Muslims who oppose the "extremists". H.




Here, the author is clearly blaming all of these issues on Islamic fanaticism, while ignoring other causes like ethnic, tribal and political rivalries. A good question to ask is, if the participants were not Muslims, is there still a good chance of this behavior occurring? In some cases, no, but in many others, yes. Tribal and ethnic violence in Africa is by no means limited to Muslims, for example.
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Your last paragraph. Sort of like "which came first", obviously the causes are complex. I think when people read the comment by "extremist cleric", the focus narrows in on just Islam. The question then is how much of a influence is Radical Islam a part of this?

[marius]

This statment is just appalling.

Do you know what happens to people in Iraq who opposes terrorists, to Afghanis openly speaking against the Taliban, or to Palestinians speaking out against the extremists? I can name countless other places where muslims run into extreme trouble if they oppose the extremists. They are seen as traitors and "zionist agents" by the fanatics, risking not only their own life but their whole families too. If the option is to be beheaded for taking a stand, is it surprising many are too scared to say anything?

So if they are just cowards, doesn't that speak in favor of Dr. Tanay's theory that their silence will make them our enemy as they are 'owned' by extremists?

[The_Android]

So if they are just cowards, doesn't that speak in favor of Dr. Tanay's theory that their silence will make them our enemy as they are 'owned' by extremists?

Cowards? If your choice is between being silent or having your family killed I wouldn't be so fast calling anyone a coward.

No, I don't consider them enemies. They are oppressed, for me their silence is more a sign of oppression than acceptance of what the extremists do. Now I'm referring to those who actually oppose what the extremists do, not those who silently accept or support what they do. I see a big difference there.

[Lazy Lob]

It's a proselytising religion, which makes your statement a lie.

Lokos

Where do I cast my vote?

[mohica]

I think your posting-history speaks for itself.

Ok, maybe the Cartoon Channel. Plenty of games there also.

[mohica]

It is a myth - there are many examples of Muslims speaking out against terrorism, oppression and other negative aspects of conservative Muslim society. However, they are rarely given the level of coverage as the fanatics. If a few dozen people decide to hold a death to Israel and America rally in downtown London or New York, that will be front page news and will be covered extensively in blogs and forums like this. If a few dozen people hold a rally for women's rights in Muslim countries, how much media coverage will it get?

Where are Muslims speaking out against the terrorists? WHERE? The gist of your post is that it is the media's fault for not reporting on "good" Muslims. I find that preposterous.




I was referring specifically to this paragraph:



Here, the author is clearly blaming all of these issues on Islamic fanaticism, while ignoring other causes like ethnic, tribal and political rivalries. A good question to ask is, if the participants were not Muslims, is there still a good chance of this behavior occurring? In some cases, no, but in many others, yes. Tribal and ethnic violence in Africa is by no means limited to Muslims, for example.
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If they were not Muslims, there is a greatly reduced chance of the violence occuring. I don't see Bhuddists, Hindus, Protestants, etc. blowing up schools, places of worship, police stations, public shopping areas, etc.

[Warlord]

A man can leave Islam after he join it ?

In Islam, apostasy in not only frowned upon. It can kill you. No. You can never leave Islam. To be an apostate is a death sentence. If you converted to Islam in London, rejected it in New York and moved to the Philippines. Muslims in those 3 locations are technically obliged to bring you back to the fold or if a "fatwa" is issued against you, follow what that fatwa says' which is most likely, to kill you.

I've met a couple of Saudis telling me that if only they could leave Islam, they will. But the problem is, Muslims are to be found everywhere in the world now. They don't know where they can move.

[KillerBD]

http://www.gearsandwidgets.com/external/wherethisthreadgoing.jpg

[mohica]

This statment is just appalling.

Do you know what happens to people in Iraq who opposes terrorists, to Afghanis openly speaking against the Taliban, or to Palestinians speaking out against the extremists? I can name countless other places where muslims run into extreme trouble if they oppose the extremists. They are seen as traitors and "zionist agents" by the fanatics, risking not only their own life but their whole families too. If the option is to be beheaded for taking a stand, is it surprising many are too scared to say anything?

You know, sometime people sacrafice for the sake of their freedom. In other words, freedom isn't free. Someone has to grow some ********s and stand up and fight and yes, maybe die to win the battle against evil.

The reason Europe is not speaking German now is because of the sacrafice of the Americans, British, and French resistance to name a few. The sacrafice of Leonidas and the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae. The American Revolutionary War for independence. The sacrafice of Travis, Crockett, Bowie, and others at the Alamo. I can go on.

The point of the original essay was that if these "moderates" live in fear and sit on the sideline, they deserve what they get, just like the good doctor describes of the 'non-Nazi' pre WWII Germans.

[marius]

Cowards? If your choice is between being silent or having your family killed I wouldn't be so fast calling anyone a coward.

No, I don't consider them enemies. They are oppressed, for me their silence is more a sign of oppression than acceptance of what the extremists do. Now I'm referring to those who actually oppose what the extremists do, not those who silently accept or support what they do. I see a big difference there.

Is is not pure speculation to argue that a silent group has this or that opinion? if they don't actually do something how could we know?

Either way I don't see the difference between silently accepting and silently opposing something - I believe as Dr. Tanay that the difference is irrelevant in the fight against terror. I see little difference between a nuclear detonation set off in Europe or Israel by people silently opposing extremism or one set off by people accepting extremism.
By silently opposing/accepting extremism they target my family and as such become a threat.

[The_Android]

The point of the original essay was that if these "moderates" live in fear and sit on the sideline, they deserve what they get, just like the good doctor describes of the 'non-Nazi' pre WWII Germans.

Did the Jews then "get what they deserved" in the Holocaust? Did all the people sent to concentration camps in the Soviet Union deserve what they got? Most of these people lived in fear and on the sideline.

[Snoshi]

Yes, and in fact it happens often by muslims living specificaly in western countries, but more often they practice a loose version of Islam (more liberal).

This is often frowned iupon by their elders & family & it is mainly the males who can get away with it. Woman have a much harder time leaving Islam, expecially from observant families & often loose contact with family entirely for fear both actual & perceived of violent repercussions.


The five major Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

[The_Android]

I see little difference between a nuclear detonation set off in Europe or Israel by people silently opposing extremism or one set off by people accepting extremism.


Why on earth would someone opposing extremism detonate a nuclear weapon in Israel or Europe?



By silently opposing/accepting extremism they target my family and as such become a threat.

How does one become a threat to your family by silently opposing extremism? I silently oppose extremism. I don't do much else than that, I'm not actively fighting extremism. Am I a threat to your family?

[afreu]

Before I change to the cartoon channel, here some useful links:

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/28/national/main712548.shtml

http://www.jannah.org/resources/muslimscondemn.html

http://www.americanmuslimwoman.com/id14.html

http://baheyeldin.com/terrorism/do-muslims-ever-condemn-terrorist-attacks.html

http://www.masnet.org/takeaction.asp?id=2648

[marius]

Why on earth would someone opposing extremism detonate a nuclear weapon in Israel or Europe?

it said: silently opposing - the point of this discussion is whether a silent group can be said to exist; and if so if it has any relevance



How does one become a threat to your family by silently opposing extremism? I silently oppose extremism. I don't do much else than that, I'm not actively fighting extremism. Am I a threat to your family?

You don't live in an extremist regime or follow an ideology that are interlinked with violence. Your country is not actively pursuing weapons of mass destruction with the intent of destroying another civilization.
And last.. you are not silent :)

[mohica]

Did the Jews then "get what they deserved" in the Holocaust? Did all the people sent to concentration camps in the Soviet Union deserve what they got? Most of these people lived in fear and on the sideline.


Another guy that just doesn't get it. I thought the Dr.'s essay was very clear and the analogies right on. It seems many others got it also and their follow-up posts reflect that understanding. Where is the problem where you got off track?

[ed316]

Blind faith leads to disaster.

[The_Android]

Another guy that just doesn't get it. I thought the Dr.'s essay was very clear and the analogies right on. It seems many others got it also and their follow-up posts reflect that understanding. Where is the problem where you got off track?

You tell me?

Your analogies just don't work in reality when we are talking about the situations I mentioned earlier. To have an impact, i.e. to rise against the extremists you need more than just balls to actually make it work. A lonely guy playing hero is more stupidity than bravery, he will very likely be killed without leaving any impact; the situation will still be the same. What we need is a collective uprising that would demand much more than that. It would demand mobilization on a larger scale. You're talking about armies, about countries, that had both men and weapon, I'm talking about people who have no realistic chances of wiping out the fanatics. It's not about the people not willing to sacrifice anything, it's about what's realistically possibly and what's not.

[PANKRASTIS]

You tell me?

Your analogies just don't work in reality when we are talking about the situations I mentioned earlier. To have an impact, i.e. to rise against the extremists you need more than just balls to actually make it work. A lonely guy playing hero is more stupidity than bravery, he will very likely be killed without leaving any impact; the situation will still be the same. What we need is a collective uprising that would demand much more than that. It would demand mobilization on a larger scale. You're talking about armies, about countries, that had both men and weapon, I'm talking about people who have no realistic chances of wiping out the fanatics. It's not about the people not willing to sacrifice anything, it's about what's realistically possibly and what's not.

Though i disagree with your previous posts, mainly, in this you do have a point of sorts. Very few rebellions even popular ones have succeeded without external support.
The Marsh Arabs & Kurds expected on going support in 1992-2 when they rose up against Saddam, & as there support evaporated, so did they!
In Sudan the Janjaween are killing thousand of Africans & christians and though there fighting back, nothing will happen without external intervention save there own extermination.

[Nephilim]

Blind faith leads to disaster.

EXACTLY!

most people dont know crap about their religion and rely on others
as they cant really read and write or really comprehend the junk thats written in their religious "manifests".

pretty easy to abuse this.

that whole junk about peacful religion is just utter crap and nothing more than a double morale...

i bet those kids who killed their sisters here in germany were also convinced that their religion is peaceful. yet they killed them without hesitation cause of their familiy honour..
the bible isnt any better..

[PANKRASTIS]

Even Greece in its war of Liberation counted on support, if not direct intervention.

The US War of Independance could rely on the French, even if sometimes limited.
To demand people stand up is one thing, to be ready to support them is another. But, for those who are thinking that in the Arab world sometimes the hand that tries to help is bitten.
That is a shortcoming that unfortunately has proven itself true on several occassions. To the silent majority who apperently want to stand ip but are afraid. If help does come, don't turn on it and call them invaders & crusaders. And if those who help you expect something in return for the money & blood invested in your freedom, that is not colonialism, what it is is fair & reasnable.

If your not willing to give something to gain something better, then don't ask & don't complain.

[budgie]

Where are Muslims speaking out against the terrorists? WHERE?

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=muslims+against+terror&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

http://search.cnn.com/search.jsp?query=muslims%20against%20terror&type=web&sortBy=date&intl=false

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=all&go=homepage&q=muslims+against+terror&scope=all&Search.x=37&Search.y=2


Whole pageｓ of them there. Go knock yourself out.

[mohica]

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=muslims+against+terror&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8

http://search.cnn.com/search.jsp?query=muslims%20against%20terror&type=web&sortBy=date&intl=false

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?tab=all&go=homepage&q=muslims+against+terror&scope=all&Search.x=37&Search.y=2


Whole pageｓ of them there. Go knock yourself out.

Blah, blah blah blah blah. I want to see it, and not have to hunt for it. There are 1.3 billion Muslims on this planet, and a dismal few isolated cases don't meet muster pal.

[KninGrad]

There are many parts that we can't agreed with Mr. Emanuel T.

with best shot by the written is must be fanatics rule a religion sentences...But the real fact these fanatics only control the power in their ignorant population of areas to get benefits under conflicted and unsolved situations. Also these events must be unsolved and unstabilised to continue their position. In the name of a religion,Islam. But surely,not a religion like that.

Islam is not a part of ignorance, fanatics or something else who defends honour killings and any killings. Not easy to explain just you want to write.

Islam is a purely peaceful,logical book that I have ever read. You can believe in or not.





regards.
CDTRF


Christianity is peaceful religion but people tend to abuse it and that result in something totally opposite to what bible teaches.

[Dasein]

Blah, blah blah blah blah. I want to see it, and not have to hunt for it. There are 1.3 billion Muslims on this planet, and a dismal few isolated cases don't meet muster pal.

But a handful of extremists is enough to judge the whole religion?

Islam is not some monolithic entity, so why should a Muslim in Morocco care about what Muslims in Afghanistan are doing, and vice versa? Muslims are found on every continent, every ethnicity and every socio-economic level. Why should merely sharing the same faith (in a general sense) make you responsible for the actions of others who share that same faith? Further, why are only Muslims expected to speak for all Muslims? Why don't we apply the same standard for Christians - and since we're being equal, this means no distinctions between different Christian sects, so Catholics need to answer for Protestants and Protestants for Greek Orthodox and so on.

[WarDancer]

But a handful of extremists is enough to judge the whole religion?

Islam is not some monolithic entity, so why should a Muslim in Morocco care about what Muslims in Afghanistan are doing, and vice versa? Muslims are found on every continent, every ethnicity and every socio-economic level. Why should merely sharing the same faith (in a general sense) make you responsible for the actions of others who share that same faith? Further, why are only Muslims expected to speak for all Muslims? Why don't we apply the same standard for Christians - and since we're being equal, this means no distinctions between different Christian sects, so Catholics need to answer for Protestants and Protestants for Greek Orthodox and so on.

Simple, Christianity is a tolerant religion. So there is no reason to apologize or explain the Church's actions or the actions of the faithful.

[Dasein]

Simple, Christianity is a tolerant religion. So there is no reason to apologize or explain the Church's actions or the actions of the faithful.

Some Christians are tolerant, others are certainly not. From a standpoint of doctrine, Islam and Christianity can be interpreted in tolerant and intolerant manners.

[Ulytau]

@mohica..i'm muslim myself..and still sayin this terror attacks Al-Qaida etc mostly aimed muslim population all around the world too..We seen in Pakistan in Turkiye terror is terror remember Solingen ''Zolingen'' tragedy? Can you tell me who supported radicalism aganist Soviet Union?Who used religion aganist Soviet Union?Cause i rememberin clearly when Turkiye been sick and tired some countries were covering who aganist Turkish Secular System..They had no problem until 11 september with them sad but true..Now they tryin to show them as an innocent people..Who speakin aganist Islam have great friendship with Saudi Arabia a president ''Just married and i hope he'll be happy forever'' was supportin Saudi King about freedom of speech and human rights etc he was sayin thanks to him..Interestin isnt it?

[anafor2004]

Nine Turks die in suspicious building fire in Germany
German firemen spray water into the burned out house in the western city of Ludwigshafen. Nine Turks, including five children, were killed in a blaze in an apartment building in the western German city of Ludwigshafen in what authorities said was the biggest fire in the post-World War II history of the city.



The fire on Sunday evening raised suspicions of an arson attack on Ger-many's Turkish community, although initial comments from officials said there was no evidence to prove that.All nine victims were immigrants from the southern province of Gaziantep, and most of them were from the same family, officials said. Four of the victims were identified as Belma Kaplan, Medine Kaplan, Hülya Kaplan and Döne Kaplan, who was five months pregnant. Four other members of the Kaplan family, including a 3-year-old child, were in critical condition. About 60 people were injured, and officials said it was possible more bodies would be found.
In Ankara, Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Şahin confirmed all the nine people killed in the fire were Turkish citizens.
German officials, including the minister for immigration and integration, Maria Boehmer, and Rhineland-Palatinate State Prime Minister Kurt Beck, rushed to the area after the tragic fire. Beck talked of a "terrible fire accident" and said there was no indication that it had stemmed from xenophobia.
The fire revived memories of a brutal attack on Turks in Germany in 1993. Five Turks were killed in the arson attack by right-wing extremists on a house in the western German city of Solingen, the worst attack on Germany's 2.5-million Turkish community to date.
Festivities as part of a carnival in Ludwigshafen were cancelled after the fire, and a book of condolences was opened for signatures at the municipal building. Mayor Eva Lohse said authorities would help relatives of the victims initially by providing financial assistance.
Some 52 people, mostly Turks, were registered as living in the building, which authorities said was in danger of collapse. But it was not clear how many people were inside when the fire broke out because a number of non-residents were believed to have been watching a carnival procession from the building.
Police said it was unclear what caused the fire, but the fact that the flames instantly engulfed the building nearly 20 minutes after the carnival procession raised suspicions of a deliberate attack. Some of the residents were also enraged, saying the firemen were very slow to intervene.
Officials, however, said the firemen and other emergency service personnel were quick to respond because they were near the building due to the carnival. The number of fatalities could have been higher if they had not been celebrating the carnival there and thus able to help catch children thrown from the upper floors of the building, said the officials.
German television reports said the wooden stairs in the building were completely burned out in the fire, blocking exit for residents.

05.02.2008
Ahmet Özay, İlyas Arıcan Ludwigshafen

[Mastermind]

The entire cult of Islam is completely drenched in blood of innocents...Islam still calls for the out right murder of people across the globe and a huge percentage of the "nice Muslims" say they would help carry out the "fatwas"...like the one issued against Salmon Rushdi. I had to visit a home of a local Muslim on business...a very nice Muslim man...inside, on his walls, posters of death to Israel, and death to Bush and praising the creeps that flew planes filled with innocent people into buildings filled with innocent people...the man was a nice man...but he totally supported such blood letting....it was his religion! I could only imagine what other kinds of meetings had taken place in the lovely American style front room I met him in. Sorry...regardless of all the so-called defense of Islam in general and how many lovely persons Islamists are made up of.....if they don't openly condemn the actions of the fanatics draining the life out of their people and ours, they are part of the problem...just as the man said in his essay about the compliant, nice, non-Nazi Germans.

Ultimately, it will come to this: We will either all be Islamists or all islamists will be no more. Think about that mission statement of Islam so clearly stated in thier most holy of holy books. To make all the world Islam...Folks, no matter what you think about poor little sweet Muslims...they must by nature of the religion ascribe to that philosophy and would in the end, do anything to make that happen. That's why they remain silent while their radicals go about murdering us and our children...it is just all part of the practice of Islam. And on this matter, there will never be any compromise...NEVER!

[anafor2004]

How many Muslim country did you visited? Todays many Muslim and noneuropian people are suffering from europic racism in Germany,France and other countries. Today Muslim people in Greece can't live their culture and they don't have human rights Why you are not talking about this kind of problems. You are always saying Muslims are supporting terrorists.Have you ever been in Turkey,Malaysia, Kazakhstan, or Uzbekistan?
How many Muslim have you met except Arabic people? I am not supporting Alkaida , Taliban. And if we want to start talking about Terrorism, Ok we may start eith talking Bosnia, Uganda , South Africa, Algeria, Azerbaijan,.......
Take a look last century and have many Muslim killed how many western people? How many Europian people killed how many Asian people let's Calculate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bash:

[budgie]

Blah, blah blah blah blah. I want to see it, and not have to hunt for it. There are 1.3 billion Muslims on this planet, and a dismal few isolated cases don't meet muster pal.

Hunt? I spoon fed you. Talk about leading a horse to water.

As for your "few isolated cases" there are major Islamic organisations in those links. Add that to the vast majority of Muslim governments that condemn terror (unlike the few two-faced sponsors like Saudi, Syria and Iran), and the decidedly tame Muslims I live and work among and have befriended, and it's a fair statement that most Muslims eschew terrorism.

[Lazy Lob]

Ultimately, it will come to this: We will either all be Islamists or all islamists will be no more.

I'm with you there.

[WKD]

anytime when he wants...Islam doesn't care who believe in itself or not and also who wants to be outside of it.

Except in Afghanistan. Saudi Arabia......

[seraosha]

Ultimately, it will come to this: We will either all be Islamists or all islamists will be no more.

Yes, this is true.