israeli fighter planes radars

[frenchy]

I visited the IAF site, and in the planes description, I see american radars like APG-70 and not israeli radars like EL/M 2052.

Do you know the reason ? Do the US block that to sell their own technology ?

[orionhawk]

Which aircraft? I would assume that they would leave an American radar system in an American-built fighter, and put their own in an Israeli-built fighter. The current fighter I saw on the sight was an F-16, designated as such. I think the Israelis build their own version of it as well, but it is not called an F-16, so that site is presumably talking about an American-built a/c.

Also, as I recall, the F-16's radar is supposed to be pretty good. Why replace it?


EDIT: I think I found where you were talking about: The F-15I ('90's). I would still assume they left the American-built radar in the American-built fighter because there was no need to replace it. Why spend money to put a radar into a fighter that came with a good one?

I certainly sincerely doubt the Government had anything to do with it, since it seems our gvt pays (or at least, used to pay) very little attention to what our defense corporations sell to other countries. Note among other things the shock and amazement over the F-14 spares sales, which looked like ending up in Iran. Even now, the only interest the government really takes in the matter is to try and ensure we're not selling **** that's gonna get used against us...

[frenchy]

Also, as I recall, the F-16's radar is supposed to be pretty good. Why replace it?


For dependency questions, it's always good to put your own equipment.

And I read on another forum, that IAF would prefer put israeli radar on F-16I for compatibility.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21291

A little extract :

"The radar the Israelis wanted on the F-16I was ELTA M 2032. It would have made the plane compatible with the DASH, Python 4/5 and the Derby"

I'm not an expert, just a novice who wants to understand.

[GiladS]

The Americans don't want to see a U.S made aircraft with an Israeli made radar. It's their radar, they designed it, and know how to counter it... and they want it to stay that way.

[frenchy]

The Americans don't want to see a U.S made aircraft with an Israeli made radar. It's their radar, they designed it, and know how to counter it... and they want it to stay that way.

Good reason for israelis to put their own tech. If you have better material, why not using it ? Between politic relationships and your own security, what's the best ?

[orionhawk]

I will readily admit that I am no sort of expert. I do know a little bit about U.S. Mil exports, though.

It may just be a matter of cost effectiveness. Sure, maybe some people think they should do as you were describing, but will it make enough difference to warrant the cost of replacement?

The Israelis generally seem to do as they choose; I would imagine that if the U.S. tried to force them to keep a radar system they didn't want, they would just not buy the fighter... and there should certainly be nothing to prevent them from buying it with the fighter, and dumping it once they get it. If they bought it, we wouldn't care what they did with it...

[orionhawk]

The Americans don't want to see a U.S made aircraft with an Israeli made radar. It's their radar, they designed it, and know how to counter it... and they want it to stay that way.

that's an awfully paranoid point of view... What is this "countering" of which you speak? IIRC, the only means to counter active radar generally work against any radar.


Good reason for israelis to put their own tech. If you have better material, why not using it ? Between politic relationships and your own security, what's the best ?

note that the Israelis still replaced virtually the entire avionics fit of their F-16s. How exactly is the Israeli radar system that much better than the one the fighter came with? Is it not possible that there's no real difference?

[Kaplanr]

Which aircraft? I would assume that they would leave an American radar system in an American-built fighter, and put their own in an Israeli-built fighter. The current fighter I saw on the sight was an F-16, designated as such. I think the Israelis build their own version of it as well, but it is not called an F-16, so that site is presumably talking about an American-built a/c.

Uhhh, guess again. Except for UAVs, Primary Launchers (Shavit Rocket) and business jets, Israel no longer produces military aircraft. IAI upgrades and test-flys, but the Nesher, Kfir and Lavi (all 5 prototypes) are done.

Maskirovka perhaps?

[orionhawk]

well, nevermind, then, I apparently have no ****ing clue what I am talking about at all. Excuse me while I go play russian roulette with a semiauto...:-(

[chaos]

that's an awfully paranoid point of view... What is this "countering" of which you speak? IIRC, the only means to counter active radar generally work against any radar.



note that the Israelis still replaced virtually the entire avionics fit of their F-16s. How exactly is the Israeli radar system that much better than the one the fighter came with? Is it not possible that there's no real difference?

the americans dont really care if we put our own radar, but we had to get the F16I with their radars.

the EL\2032 and EL2052 are better than the radar on the F16I (that doesnt give us edge against arabs, unlike eltas radar that could give edge against arab and even western countries)

[JoaMei]

Once again the Main reason I think is they pay for the Radars with foreign military aid, which can only be spend on US made Items.

[GiladS]

Once again the Main reason I think is they pay for the Radars with foreign military aid, which can only be spend on US made Items.

That wasn't a factor.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article1001.html

[frenchy]

Well, let's explain to me.

Israel produces, derby, python, elta radars and they buy AMRAAM, sidewider, and american radars. Why they don't buy their own things to help local industries ?

Ii it the same thing with the spike missile ?

[Kaplanr]

Well, let's explain to me.

Israel produces, derby, python, elta radars and they buy AMRAAM, sidewider, and american radars. Why they don't buy their own things to help local industries ?

Ii it the same thing with the spike missile ?

Comes back to US aid. Roughly 25 percent of what Israel receives in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) can be spent in Israel for military procurement. For 2006, the figure was $595 million. The remaining 75 percent of FMF is spent in the United States. At the end of the day it's cheaper to buy the US product because it's subsidized.

The question becomes, never mind outright aid (free money?) would Russia or the Europeans states offer financing if Israel were to deviate from "Made in the USA" products?

[frenchy]

But if israelis sell more products to export, they can low the prices. Perhaps it could help.

[Ren987]

Well, let's explain to me.

Israel produces, derby, python, elta radars and they buy AMRAAM, sidewider, and american radars. Why they don't buy their own things to help local industries ?

Ii it the same thing with the spike missile ?The Python 4 and the latest variant, the Python 5, are definitely in operational use. For the Derby I don't know. As there're hundreds of aircrafts in IAF service and the risk of war is high, there must be thousands of missiles available so the US foreign aid helps, furthermore their missiles are world-class.

First combat kill with Python 5 (http://www.f-16.net/news_article1983.html)

Elta radars are widely used by the IDF and the different israeli security services, from miniature ground detection radars to airborne early warning system, aerostats mounted radar and ballistic missile tracking radar... there is no shortage. For the fighter planes, while it is known the IAF had to buy F-16 and F-15 with US-made radars, nothing prevents them to take them apart once in Israel and to install the Elta radars if the higher performances of the latest are worth the cost. BTW, that may have already taken place but the info is censored like many things in the IDF.

For the Spike, it is also widely used for sure. Just check out the IDF ground forces' thread carefully. I can even give you an estimate figure: 1500 Spike's in IDF service in 2006 (forecast). For more info Frenchy, read that link:
www.tealgroup.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=19