US troops using captured enemy weapons

[Migs]

I'm tryin to figure this out.....are our guys allowed to pick up captured enemy weapon (specifically the AK-47 in Iraq) in place of the issued M16A2 or M4? Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour.

[Hellfish]

I'm tryin to figure this out.....are our guys allowed to pick up captured enemy weapon (specifically the AK-47 in Iraq) in place of the issued M16A2 or M4? Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour.

It's happened. IIRC some tank battalions ended up having to send out foot patrols. Tank crews of 4 men are issued with two rifles and two pistols. They, in some cases, used AK variants to replace the pistols.

It's happened on occasion in Vietnam too, either as a unit (LRP units sometimes used captured weapons on missions) or individuals (usually NCOs) might swap their M16.

In WWII I know sometimes it happened too. I think there's a picture from the Ardennes with a US soldier carrying a StG44.

[Heazy]

I remember my drill sergeant in OSUT told us he used a silenced sterling sub-gun and a glock which was "procured" from a dead Iraqi police officer. this was late 04-05 so i don't know what is allowed these days.

[THETOOLMAN]

bad idea using the enemy weapons.... If I hear enemy fire I will call in air support .. NO,NO, never fire the wrong weapon .. They tell deer hunters ti identify your target-- same with us grunts... I hear ak I fire! I must live so I can kill!!!!

[LaoSexMachine]

I'm tryin to figure this out.....are our guys allowed to pick up captured enemy weapon (specifically the AK-47 in Iraq) in place of the issued M16A2 or M4? Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour.

remainder of there tour? i doubt that.

[Hollis]

OH nOSe more stories about the evil M4.

[LaoSexMachine]

OH nOSe more stories about the evil M4.

exactly .

[Andreas]

What is better: 5.56 or 7.62?

Please discuss:

[-[Crosshair]-]

What is better: 5.56 or 7.62?

Please discuss:

uh ho!7890

[Midn./Patriot]

What is better: 5.56 or 7.62?

Please discuss:

With all due respect, are you out of your crack smoking mind!?1

[JKinnaird]

What is better: 5.56 or 7.62?

Please discuss:
You can carry more 5.56 ammo, and it has proven to be very lethal, so id go with 5.56.

7.62-39mm has a slower muzzle vel. but the round has bigger diameter.

I THINK that the 5.56mm can acheive a greater range.

so still 5.56

[digrar]

With all due respect, are you out of your crack smoking mind!?1


Next time he'll use the winking smiley so you can pick up on the sarcasm..

[California Joe]

Nothing worse than missed sarcasm. :)

I believe I've seen video and stills of American soldiers carrying and firing some AK variants in what appears to be a patrol situation. I also think there's a few pics around here of US Marines using a Dragunov to spot or snipe insurgents...Common sense would dictate this would be a one time type thing.

I've seen pics of Vietnam era SEALs with AK's and all kinds of different weapons...

[LaoSexMachine]

i think going behind enemy lines snooping and pooping it would be ideal to use what the enemy use

[boone]

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/8384/ppsh1ue5gd0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[-[Crosshair]-]

Oh dayum, let's hope he has more ammo for that ppsh.

[winchester_down]

bad idea using the enemy weapons.... If I hear enemy fire I will call in air support .. NO,NO, never fire the wrong weapon .. They tell deer hunters ti identify your target-- same with us grunts... I hear ak I fire! I must live so I can kill!!!!


So you call in air support as soon as you hear en fire?;-)
sounds kinda weird, wouldn't you fire back first?

And about hearing AK fire, you'll be acutely aware of the fact that Iraqi army and police use these weapons so you'll get confirmation first wont you?

[TwoFistedFlava]

I met a guy who was a sniper in the first Gulf War, and he said that he used a captured Iraqi dragunov for most of the time he was there. He also claimed that he switched a rose-colored lens into the scope that made Iraqi uniforms stand out more. It seemed a little far fetched to me and I didn't know the man personally, but I thought it might be an interesting story to add to this thread.

[LRPV]

^^^

Can only add to the mirth....p-)

[brianm423]

I'm tryin to figure this out.....are our guys allowed to pick up captured enemy weapon (specifically the AK-47 in Iraq) in place of the issued M16A2 or M4? Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour.

The simple answer to your question...NO. I would rather have my M4 than a 47. Yeah Yeah, 7.62 vs 5.56...I don't even wanna hear that. I'd trust my M4 any day over some old 47. Oh and by the way...we are at war in Afghanistan too...not just Iraq. Don't forget that.

[James]

What is better: 5.56 or 7.62?

Please discuss:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6266/whattheca7.jpg

rofl rofl rofl

[Migs]

geez so many comments in such little time! I dont want the old "AK vs M16" design or "5.56 vs 7.62" argument I just want to know if our troops in Iraq (or afganistan or anywhere else i am not aware of) ever use captured enemy weapons. So non of this "M4 is better than AK" stuff. Any1 have pictures showing this too? Does anyone know if the army or marines have regulations agiainst using captured enemy weapons?

[Mofreaka]

I'm sure there are "regulations" regarding the use of captured weapons and souvenirs. But really lol, like any grunt is actually going to care. However, I doubt there are soldiers out there who ditch their M-4 for an AK in the field.

[James]

"Ever use" - yes.

"Allowed to use for most of their tour" - no.

Any accounts you read in which a young grunt "got tired of a jamming M4 and decided to use an AK47" speaks more to poor discipline in not cleaning the M4 properly than anything else. Take them with a grain of salt.

[Ol' Bob]

Given the chance I wouldn't mind carrying something else. I can't get more than 3 rounds off with my A4 without it jamming. Table 2 sucked balls with that pos.

[LaoSexMachine]

tell your squad leader and have them issue you a new one.

[Hollis]

Given the chance I wouldn't mind carrying something else. I can't get more than 3 rounds off with my A4 without it jamming. Table 2 sucked balls with that pos.


Did you read the post above yours?

[brianm423]

Given the chance I wouldn't mind carrying something else. I can't get more than 3 rounds off with my A4 without it jamming. Table 2 sucked balls with that pos.

What? 3 rounds huh? I'd like to see that.

This past week during ARM training I put well over 400 rounds of live and blank through my issued M4 without any issues...and that was with little maintenance during that time. Just a little CLP.

[winchester_down]

Referring to the above comments, it sounds as if some ppl need to do a little more maintenance on their rifles and, this may not apply to some, i have always found firing blank rounds you get more stoppages, where as live you get few and far between.


From what I've personally heard, soldiers wont swap a weapon for the tour, as "James" said.
But I've heard of many stories of captured weapons being used for very short periods, say in one firefight, you capture a AK47 , you unload the rest of the mag into the next enemy pos then hand it back through the chain or discard it.

I personally would use one i captured found, for a short time only, maybe if you capture an en PKM or other in a building that is now clear, use it to supress the next building or something.

[Sloppy Joe2]

heard of soldiers picking up handguns from the locals if not issued a sidearm. didnt happen with us though.

[James]

If I was a Russian soldier I would throw away my AK and use an M16.

[TR1]

I hear that Raptor pilots sometime use S-400s instead.

[digrar]

If I was a Russian soldier I would throw away my AK and use an M16.

If you were a Russian Soldier, you'd be all Russiastrong!!! like this ^ bloke...p-)

[TR1]

Why thank you digrar, you make me blush.

[Lt. James Anderson]

We had RPGs and PKMs on some positions a couple of times in the first year of war. We didn't have enough people, in case we got attacked, but we had plenty of 7.62 ammo and RPG rockets. We never got attacked while we were there so we never got to use them ...

Also we had a bunch of SA-7s which we tried to figure out.
We wanted to use them on ground targets just for fun to see what they would do. :)

[Albatross]

I know a russian.........

[Vympel]

Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour. You've read bs. Do you think egyptian made ak copies are better than m16/m4?:DDD

[Vympel]

If I was a Russian soldier I would throw away my AK and use an M16.

If i was a Russian soldier I would join us army

[panzrman]

It did happen quite a bit. Can't speak for the current environment in Iraq for example. On our trucks, we had two spare AK's per truck. I kept one up in the turret with me when gunning, along with my M4 and 9mil. Also had an MP-5 and a PPSH for a spell. Kept the MP-5 around , but we ditched the Papa for lack of a constant ammo supply.

This was 05-06.

And I agree with those who say there is nothing wrong with the M16/4 family of weapons. All it takes is a little tlc on the innards and she will never do you wrong. I served 22 years in the US Army, and never once had my weapon jam. Don't have to have it spotless, especially in the field. But it is not that difficult to break it open, give it a quick wipe down.

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

What is better: 5.56 or 7.62?

Please discuss:


in Afghanistan - 7.62 for me
no problem killing enemy behind the tree or some other obstacle.
yes I know (:

[MikeSierra151]

In Iraq early '04 I knew a few Marine Staff NCO's that picked up AK's because they were issued only M9's. We were attatched to the Coalition so we were not technically under JTF1. Also a Army Cpt picked up a Itallian double barrel and sent it home.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Referring to the above comments, it sounds as if some ppl need to do a little more maintenance on their rifles and, this may not apply to some, i have always found firing blank rounds you get more stoppages, where as live you get few and far between.


Correct, blanks are not the same size as live rounds, thats why you often have feeding/extraction problems. Blank rounds also leave more residue behind, and they're crap in general because the manufacturer often doesn't give a **** about blanks... :|

[LaoSexMachine]

Correct, blanks are not the same size as live rounds, thats why you often have feeding/extraction problems. Blank rounds also leave more residue behind, and they're crap in general because the manufacturer often doesn't give a **** about blanks... :|

wtf11111. alot of it has to do with the bfa not being tight

[bull-lug]

Well the Iraqi Army, Police and a big number of our Coalition allies are using AKs too, so the "sound" doesn't make much difference in this case.

[orange]

I read a citation for a Silver Star where one, Marine I think, ran out of bullets for his M4/16 and thus picked up a AK from a dead insurgent and used it for the remainder of the firefight. I seriously doubt that he kept the AK and used it for the remainder of his tour instead of his M4/16 though.

[James]

wtf11111. alot of it has to do with the bfa not being tight

Ja, loose BFA allows the gas pressure to fall too low, and the rifle just won't cycle.

[pitbull35]

The fact that you can carry more 5.56 than 7.62 doesn't change the fact that the 5.56 is a very poor round for combat. Many after action and lesson learned reports have accounts from troops stating that it took many hits from thier 5.56 rounds to put down the enemy. Now, it is very common to find the enemy wearing body armor.
In fact, the U.S. military is currently experimenting with different rifle rounds.
Why waste money and time on this? Go with a battle proven round. 7.62 is the best round.
Even if you hit them in the arm or leg, it's going to fall off.
I can't see troops now using captured weapons for long perods of time.
Imagine a platoon with a mix weapons. Doesn't seem likely.

[flanker7]

I believe it has more to do with where you put your shot than with the caliber you are using when it comes to human body effects. Ofcourse, a bigger round does more damage in general but you can't convince me that a 5,56 round center mass or to the head won't kill...

:-|

In any case though, bigger round, more range and energy

[James]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1840000/images/_1842142_abbeyn-bbc300.jpg

[flanker7]

Some headache there James?
Sorry..

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

601st SFG uses both 5.56 and 7.62 caliber guns. Operator chooses weapon.
I personally think that 7.62 is more effective, therefore better.
I have spoken :)

[Migs]

wow quite a discussion i started lol thx for all yer feedback......now when u guys say 7.62 do u mean the 7.62 by 51 or the 7.62 by 39?

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

^I ment 7.62x39mm

[Hypno85]

Kinda of freaky was just watching a clip about the different round etc..


Future Weapons: The Barrett M468 Assault Rifle.
http://www.youtube.com/v/3zMpN_-pcas

[beNder]

The fact that you can carry more 5.56 than 7.62 doesn't change the fact that the 5.56 is a very poor round for combat. Many after action and lesson learned reports have accounts from troops stating that it took many hits from thier 5.56 rounds to put down the enemy. Now, it is very common to find the enemy wearing body armor.
In fact, the U.S. military is currently experimenting with different rifle rounds.
Why waste money and time on this? Go with a battle proven round. 7.62 is the best round.
Even if you hit them in the arm or leg, it's going to fall off.
I can't see troops now using captured weapons for long perods of time.
Imagine a platoon with a mix weapons. Doesn't seem likely.

Yeah, the 5.56 has only been around a couple years and very few of the worlds soldiers use it. Another russia strong fanboy/child.

Calling Mr Nagati

[pitbull35]

The only way to kill or "stop" someone is massive blood loss to the brain.
The quickest way to do this is simple. cause the most damage possible.A person hopped up on adrenalin or other drugs have been noted by troops and police to have taken multiple hits and continue their attack.
the enemy is well trained, equiped, VERY motivated to kill, and it is common for them to wear body armour as stated before.
I don't doubt that a head shot would kill with 5.56.
Head shots aren't the easiest to make, and soldiers aren't trained to aim for the head. center of visible mass.
The 7.62 will do the most damage.Why sacarfice a better round for the sake of carrying more of substandard round?
It it aint broke, don't fix it.

[PoGo]

the enemy is well trained, equiped,

The last war in which my country's enemy was well trained and equipped was over 60 years ago. For your sake and ours, just stop now...please.:|

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

^ no thats not it.

5.56 is based on ´shock´ coused by being hit and on higher number of bullets fired. Its deadly.
but the advantage of 7.62 is the fact that you can effectivly engange targets
behind possible obstacles.

[Ratamacue]

You've got to be ****ing kidding me. People, just stop. Please, for the sake of the children.

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

why dude?

ok... sa 58 upgrades STRONG!!1!1!!!§

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg59/matdeangelis/P1220062.jpg
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[RomanS]

The real question is

Who is better Spetsnaz or US SF ?

[orange]

^^
MiG-15 or Sabre? Eh? That's one for you guys to argue about...

[jonosk]

I have heard that some sf use ak´s so the locals dont think they are sf and think they are just terrorist.

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

^O RLY?
dude thats bullsh!t

[RomanS]

I have heard that some sf use ak´s so the locals dont think they are sf and think they are just terrorist.

Ive heard there were Chechens fighting against US forces, and some fights even took places in Chechnya between US Rangers and Chechen terrorizers

[desertwarrior123]

Personally I think its more down to personal preference. People use the weapon which best suits them. If a soldier likes the short range firepower and reliability of an AK then he's gonna use that. SF use M4's and AK's its been seen just depends on where you are and what your mission is. The AK is a peice of s**t for accuracy, whereas the M16 is very accurate. The M16 is a bit hit and miss for reliability, whereas the AK fires 99% of the time. The 5.56mm round is ok, it might not knock someone down but it'll sure make them think twice afterwards, and the 7.62x39 is ok but still doesnt beat the NATO 7.62 round. Ill let you draw your own decisions but ill stick with my M16 until it breaks or I find something better

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

http://myspace.drewpydraws.com/funnyhotmen/its-a-trap.jpg

[Johnny_H02]

Roman S is that Commisar Alexi Dograsov of the K9 Spetzial Company?
I heard that during the Soviet-Afghan war they were the best clandestine operations unit of the USSR. Still -TOP SECRET- to this day.
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3861/03podborka32654997bx8.jpg
(It is also said that its due to Mr.Dograsov's efforts that Sergie Federov got picked for the NHL)

[desertwarrior123]

I worry about who took that picture, was it you???

[RomanS]

Roman S is that Commisar Dograsov of the K9 Spetzial Company?
I heard that during the Soviet-Afghan war they were the best clandestine operations unit of the USSR. Still -TOP SECRET- to this day.

http://nonkonformist.narod.ru/55.jpg

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

I worry about who took that picture, was it you???

no it was taken by unknown victim of this man http://grower.cz/forum/images/smilies/david.gif

[ed316]

This thread makes baby Buddha cry.

[Migs]

this vid shows a pretty cool comparison of M16 vs AK-47 and the rounds they carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&feature=related

[ed316]

this vid shows a pretty cool comparison of M16 vs AK-47 and the rounds they carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&feature=related

Ahem.




Migs-
geez so many comments in such little time! I dont want the old "AK vs M16" design or "5.56 vs 7.62" argument I just want to know if our troops in Iraq (or afganistan or anywhere else i am not aware of) ever use captured enemy weapons. So non of this "M4 is better than AK" stuff. Any1 have pictures showing this too? Does anyone know if the army or marines have regulations agiainst using captured enemy weapons?


Could you show me a link to this blog you read?

[Abbadon the Despoiler]

this vid shows a pretty cool comparison of N.Korea vs S.Korea
N.K. actually kick ass http://grower.cz/forum/newsmiles/poke2.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCxdku8sx-A

[desertwarrior123]

this vid shows a pretty cool comparison of M16 vs AK-47 and the rounds they carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0&feature=related

Yeh its not a bad comparision but the best reports come from soldiers who have used the rifles in the mud and dirt, not from a guy in a museum. As for the arguement of the AK being the better all round rifle, well as long as you keep an M16 clean, out of the dirt and dont put millions of rounds through, it'll be fine. The problem is the Geneva convention and the banning of squash head round (ie non Full Metal Jacket). The problems found with the M16's stopping power are usually from the use of AP Tungsten Carbide Tipped rounds going straight through people. Clean M16 + Hollow points = WINNER!!!!

[Migs]

Ahem.



Could you show me a link to this blog you read?

If i do some searching i forgot where i found it and it was a while ago

[icesarge]

I used the M-4 M203 combo in Iraq as a squad leader there is noting wrong with the M-4.If grunts clean there weapons like they should.I myself carried an assult pack strap besides it was an AK-47.I carried it for back up.One of my team leaders carried a cheap Iraqi copy of a 9mm.

[desertwarrior123]

If the regular footsoldiers are taught clean their weapons properly and try to keep them out of the dirt (i.e. try not to drop them, dont clean them with sh**ty rags from the mechanics) then they should work okay most of the time. The biggest problem ive had is broken firing pins but thats ok because most of us carried back up weapons of some sort, USP, M9, failing that bayonet, then E-tool). The M16 is fine as a combat weapon could just do with some refinements (get rid of the gas tube for the HK type one, folding sights as standard, and maybe ambidextrous controls) but I like it, and like I said i'll use it until it breaks or until I find something better

[James]

The real question is

Who is better Spetsnaz or US SF ?

As acrobats and in shovel throwing contests, I tilt my hat to Spetnaz. Everything else, US SF. ;)

[SMGLee]

well, i was talking to this guy at Turner's, and they know what they're talking about, and he said that he was talking to this customer who had a friend whose brother just got back from a second tour with....a band that he was a roadie for, and on the road met this guy who had heard from his cousin's girlfriend whose brother read on the internet, this info that was posted by an industry professional who had feedback from a unit overseas who had seen this other unit on base and talked to the guys who knew the commander of this other secret unit who had run into a squad of these other guys in the 'stan, who were using Enfield rifle in Stan....because the distance of the shot increase over time, because the AK47 they would using were so effective, the enemies started to ambush them further and further away. they also started using the old bow and arrow that was left over by the Alexander days, since the M4CQB-R with suppressor jam every other rounds, so they just found the old bow and arrow are quieter and just as effective....

[digrar]

I don't doubt that a head shot would kill with 5.56.



I took some 5.56 to the head the other day, just shook that **** right off...

[SMGLee]

I took some 5.56 to the head the other day, just shook that **** right off...


you too?

Now that makes two of us.

[Hollis]

you too?

Now that makes two of us.


Hum, all the time, I thought it was more like mosquitos. We would laugh at Charlie swatting at them buzzing around his head. It was great entertainment as long as the ammo held up or the gun teams opened up.

[Mountain Man]

I took some 5.56 to the head the other day, just shook that **** right off...

Awesome p-)

[SupportTheTroops_5]

ive only fired an old M16A1 my uncle owned, but i'd take the M4/M16 any day. the 5.56 and 7.62 SEEM equal to me(but im not an expert nor a vet who used either one in combat) because each one has its ups and downs.

[pitbull35]

The last war in which my country's enemy was well trained and equipped was over 60 years ago. For your sake and ours, just stop now...please.:|
You really are clueless.

The U.S. Tied in Korea, Lost in Vietnam,was chased out of Beruit, Bombed Serbia from the air with Nato because the generals did not want a ground war they couldn't win.
Maybe you should read some after action reports and accounts from the troops on the ground. Enemy troops armed with the latest weapon systems, Reports from Afganistan say that enemy dead were found to be wearing Gortex clothing from the U.S.
One last thing you need to remember, many of the enemy fighters were also trained by UNCLE SAM.

[Hippo]

You really are clueless.


Oh the irony...

[ronnieraygun]

You really are clueless.

The U.S. Tied in Korea, Lost in Vietnam,was chased out of Beruit, Bombed Serbia from the air with Nato because the generals did not want a ground war they couldn't win.
Maybe you should read some after action reports and accounts from the troops on the ground. Enemy troops armed with the latest weapon systems, Reports from Afganistan say that enemy dead were found to be wearing Gortex clothing from the U.S.
One last thing you need to remember, many of the enemy fighters were also trained by UNCLE SAM.

RUH ROH...

[Hollis]

You really are clueless.

The U.S. Tied in Korea, Lost in Vietnam,was chased out of Beruit, Bombed Serbia from the air with Nato because the generals did not want a ground war they couldn't win.
Maybe you should read some after action reports and accounts from the troops on the ground. Enemy troops armed with the latest weapon systems, Reports from Afganistan say that enemy dead were found to be wearing Gortex clothing from the U.S.
One last thing you need to remember, many of the enemy fighters were also trained by UNCLE SAM.

I would like to know what your credentials are. So far a lot of Smoke does not mean there is a fire.

[Sloppy Joe2]

i hate you all! those i love know who you are.

[pitbull35]

I would like to know what your credentials are. So far a lot of Smoke does not mean there is a fire.
Credentials for what? History?
Give some examples and prove me wrong.

rofl

[Hollis]

Credentials for what? History?
Give some examples and prove me wrong.

rofl


I will ask you one more time, what is your credentials on weapons? Or you can take a holiday. So far your coming off as a poser or wannabe.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Credentials for what? History?
Give some examples and prove me wrong.

rofli hate you especially, HOLLis doesnt have to prove ****. if you get called out, show your **** or GTFO!

[JKinnaird]

I will ask you one more time, what is your credentials on weapons? Or you can take a holiday. So far your coming off as a poser or wannabe.
I am beginning to wonder this as well.

You do seem to lack evidence in a number of claims that you are making.

and a number of them are likely to be completely un-true.

I highly doubt that you will last here long if you dont buck up.
(sorry HOLLis, dont mean to steal your line)

[pitbull35]

I will ask you one more time, what is your credentials on weapons? Or you can take a holiday. So far your coming off as a poser or wannabe.
Poser or wannabe. nice comback.
I perfer the facts, they speak for themselves.
As far as myself, I served in The Armed Forces.
I'm no expert, never said I was. I think it's fair to say your not either.
I wootchallenge you to prove anything I've stated in these post as wrong.

[LaoSexMachine]

Poser or wannabe. nice comback.
I perfer the facts, they speak for themselves.
As far as myself, I served in The Armed Forces, and worked as an Armored car guard for a number of years.We had a guy that was robbing us wearing body armour. Our 38's were useless.
I'm no expert, never said I was. I think it's fair to say your not either.
I wootchallenge you to prove anything I've stated in these post as wrong.

what arm forces? you spatted syt with no link. fvcking POSER.

[pitbull35]

I am beginning to wonder this as well.

You do seem to lack evidence in a number of claims that you are making.

and a number of them are likely to be completely un-true.

I highly doubt that you will last here long if you dont buck up.
(sorry HOLLis, dont mean to steal your line)
roflAGAIN. prove me wrong.
What's untrue?
So, you guys going to kick me off this site because I don't agree with you?
LOL!woot

[JKinnaird]

roflAGAIN. prove me wrong.
What's untrue?
So, you guys going to kick me off this site because I don't agree with you?
LOL!woot
make a list of claims about 5.56mm (M4), vs. 7.62mm(AK), and we will enlighten you.

[Alfacentori]

roflAGAIN. prove me wrong.
What's untrue?
So, you guys going to kick me off this site because I don't agree with you?
LOL!woot

No I think its because you claim to have military history and service to back up your claims yet you refuse to say exactly what that service history is!
They don't like people who claim to be Vets and are actually poser wannabes and I don't blame them.




Alfa

[Hollis]

Poser or wannabe. nice comback.
I perfer the facts, they speak for themselves.
As far as myself, I served in The Armed Forces, and worked as an Armored car guard for a number of years.We had a guy that was robbing us wearing body armour. Our 38's were useless.
I'm no expert, never said I was. I think it's fair to say your not either.
I wootchallenge you to prove anything I've stated in these post as wrong.

38's, Jeepers, that is old and was dumped in the early 70's as a service pistol in the states. If we need armored car advice we will be sure not to ask you.

On the challenge, do a search on the forum for the great .223 Vs the AK Vs .308 VS what ever. I really don't have the time or patience to get into a pissing match with you. My daughter by the time she was 9, probably put more rounds down range than you. And fired a wider variety of firearms than you.

Also there are a large number of members on this forum, who also fired a lot of rounds down range at Haj and other unlucky contestants.

[California Joe]

No douchebag, I suspended you for calling a fighter pilot clueless and then backpedalling when asked for your credentials. It'll give you time to find your paperwork as a badass former military badassian.

Didn't mean to step on your argument Hollis, he was just annoying the hell out of me....

[Sloppy Joe2]

roflAGAIN. prove me wrong.
What's untrue?
So, you guys going to kick me off this site because I don't agree with you?
LOL!wootregardless of what military experience you claim, every generic comment you have made can be seen or heard of on the history channel, doesnt make it right.

the mods are suspending because you are a ****ing tool!

[Hollis]

roflAGAIN. prove me wrong.
What's untrue?
So, you guys going to kick me off this site because I don't agree with you?
LOL!woot


NO, not that we disagree, it that your FOS. BTW, On other military forums, you would not have gotten this far in your BS. We are the kinder gentiler military forum.

[PoGo]

You really are clueless.

The U.S. Tied in Korea,

South Korea, the US and their allies successfully repelled the North's invasion, how is that a tie?

Lost in Vietnam,

This you could argue was a tie, but if you ask me the politicians lost it, not the soldiers.

was chased out of Beruit,

I'm not even going to bother with this.

Bombed Serbia from the air with Nato because the generals did not want a ground war they couldn't win.

And your point is what?

Maybe you should read some after action reports and accounts from the troops on the ground.

roflI'll get right on it boss.

Enemy troops armed with the latest weapon systems, Reports from Afganistan say that enemy dead were found to be wearing Gortex clothing from the U.S.

An occasional Tommy Taliban wearing captured body amour isn't them having "the latest weapons systems."

One last thing you need to remember, many of the enemy fighters were also trained by UNCLE SAM.

So by many I assume you mean the majority?...which is wrong.


Its funny that your attack on my original post had virtually nothing to do with my original post.

Edit- I figured you'd be gone by the time I had finished this post.

[California Joe]

Sorry pal. I couldn't take it...:)

[Hollis]

Sorry pal. I couldn't take it...:)


I thought it was perfect timing. I was amazed. Thanks. I was running out of sane and civilized responces.

[Sloppy Joe2]

I thought it was perfect timing. I was amazed. Thanks. I was running out of sane and civilized responces.have confindence in the number that you are able to come up with, there are many threads that i avoid for this very reason.

[Hollis]

have confindence in the number that you are able to come up with, there are many threads that i avoid for this very reason.


Einstein stated that there where only two infinites that he knew of. One was the depth of the universe, the other was human stupidity. He added that he wasn't too sure about the universe.

I don't blame you.

[Chulo]

The only way to kill or "stop" someone is massive blood loss to the brain.
The quickest way to do this is simple. cause the most damage possible.A person hopped up on adrenalin or other drugs have been noted by troops and police to have taken multiple hits and continue their attack.
the enemy is well trained, equiped, VERY motivated to kill, and it is common for them to wear body armour as stated before.
I don't doubt that a head shot would kill with 5.56.
Head shots aren't the easiest to make, and soldiers aren't trained to aim for the head. center of visible mass.
The 7.62 will do the most damage.Why sacarfice a better round for the sake of carrying more of substandard round?
It it aint broke, don't fix it.
This must be quoted for "da Truth!" i guess u didnt read the report on the increase in number of headshots in Iraq

[Migs]

................

[Hollis]

................


See the trouble you cause, one guy got suspended..


All joking aside, it was a good question. Not everyone in the military does the same job. Some special units have more choice over what weapons will be used on a individual level. Also there is just people doing things, let's just say, for the only reason as to be unique.... if they can get away with it. Getting away with it, can be based on a the individual company CO's attitude, the 1st Sgt, or ??????

[Sloppy Joe2]

Einstein stated that there where only two infinites that he knew of. One was the depth of the universe, the other was human stupidity. He added that he wasn't too sure about the universe.

I don't blame you.just increasing my confindence in his opinion

[Bulletproof]

Careful, Pit35 was in teh Armed Force, he know his stuff.

[Beowulf]

Credentials for what? History?
Give some examples and prove me wrong.

rofl


A couple of re-ocurring falacies continue to appear:

"prove me wrong" - actually it is YOUR opinion of the facts therefore the burden of proof is on you...prove you right.


..............

[James]

You really are clueless.

The U.S. Tied in Korea, Lost in Vietnam,was chased out of Beruit, Bombed Serbia from the air with Nato because the generals did not want a ground war they couldn't win.
Maybe you should read some after action reports and accounts from the troops on the ground. Enemy troops armed with the latest weapon systems, Reports from Afganistan say that enemy dead were found to be wearing Gortex clothing from the U.S.
One last thing you need to remember, many of the enemy fighters were also trained by UNCLE SAM.

You're an idiot.

Oops! You're already suspended. Too bad...

[matsalleh18]

Us troops using capture weapons,nothing new but has anyone seen us soldier using RPG-7 For combat?

[RomanS]

As acrobats and in shovel throwing contests, I tilt my hat to Spetnaz. Everything else, US SF. ;)

If Russia and US ever engages into conventional fight, I must warn you

There are lot of shovels and trampolines in Russia. Better come prepared p-)

[James]

If Russia and US ever engages into conventional fight, I must warn you

There are lot of shovels and trampolines in Russia. Better come prepared p-)

LOL rofl rofl rofl

Well done sir.

[RomanS]

LOL rofl rofl rofl

Well done sir.

:);)

I cant believe what this thread turned into.

[Remington Rand]

You've read bs. Do you think egyptian made ak copies are better than m16/m4?:DDD

I'd take a M4 or M-16 over an AK any day. No matter what you say about the M4/M16, the reliability and accuracy have to be better. I bet you would find a bunch of rusty old cold war eara AKs in Iraqi hands anyway. In an emergency, of course, otherwise dont think so.

[Ratamacue]

:);)

I cant believe what this thread turned into.This is MP.net, my friend. Nothing surprises me anymore.

[Hollis]

If Russia and US ever engages into conventional fight, I must warn you

There are lot of shovels and trampolines in Russia. Better come prepared p-)


I got us covered. We have a trampoline that my two attack kids have been working out on. Problem is the shovels, they have opted for what I use, a John Deere Tractor. When I have tried to get them to understand the nuances of a shovel, they look at me, then ask, "Where are the hydraulic controls?"

[Migs]

This is MP.net, my friend. Nothing surprises me anymore.

all i wanted was a simple answer when i started this thread....guess i have some to learn about this site

[Hollis]

all i wanted was a simple answer when i started this thread....guess i have some to learn about this site


It is the way of the internet, my young grasshopper.

[Migs]

See the trouble you cause, one guy got suspended..


All joking aside, it was a good question. Not everyone in the military does the same job. Some special units have more choice over what weapons will be used on a individual level. Also there is just people doing things, let's just say, for the only reason as to be unique.... if they can get away with it. Getting away with it, can be based on a the individual company CO's attitude, the 1st Sgt, or ??????

hmm....u gave me the straighted answer here thx
(and sry about the suspension) O_0

[desertwarrior123]

Sorry about the going off on one. I think youre allowed to use your own weapons/captured weapons, as long as you have your issued one on parade and to hand back in to the armourer, and its your own fault if you get killed either by the weapon or because it fails and you get killed. Like the man said however depends what unit your in.

[CPL Trevoga]

I got us covered. We have a trampoline that my two attack kids have been working out on. Problem is the shovels, they have opted for what I use, a John Deere Tractor. When I have tried to get them to understand the nuances of a shovel, they look at me, then ask, "Where are the hydraulic controls?"

Old M16 bayonet is an awesome throwing weapon. Not the new high speed, but old Vietnam era bayonets. 7-10 yards range easy. Better than any shovel. I know this thread make baby Jesus cry, but you guys should try it. You know, for fun.

[zonk]

my old bayonet is pretty damn sharp, therefore i won't be throwing it ntm i broke the tip off of it in iraq the last time. good bayonet though

[Migs]

why is this thread "bad"? (im new here so go easy on me)

[CPL Trevoga]

why is this thread "bad"? (im new here so go easy on me)

It makes baby Jesus cry.

[California Joe]

why is this thread "bad"? (im new here so go easy on me)

It had nothing to do with you. It was an honest question, as Hollis said. And I think you have some decent answers. Yes it happens and no it is not SOP.

The trouble happens when jackasses go off topic and start inserting ill informed opinions about ballistics, capabilities, weapons...or anything else some guy told them or they read or heard....

[SupportTheTroops_5]

as soon as i saw pitbulls first couple posts on this thread, i knew he was eventually gonna be banned. I love it when people like him get what is coming for them. i seriously doubt he served in the military before or even fired an AK before.

now going back on track, I have seen many pictures of Marines using Dragunovs or detached dragunov scopes to get a clear view of enemy positions. I am not sure whether they fire the weapons though. I am NOT an expert and have never been to Iraq or afghanistan, so I am just going by photos i have seen

[California Joe]

Those are probably the same pics I've seen.

For a while on CNN or MSNBC whenever they had a story about the troops in Iraq they used file footage of our guys taking fire and shooting back, one of them was carrying an AK...

[oregongrunt]

We just used our captured ones for fun in Iraq. We'd take them out on patrol along with our assigned weapons to use for shooting at cans, bottles, blown up tanks, etc. We also had a homemade target range at our camp to shoot AKs, RPGs, PKs, etc. Hell, the ammo supply was unlimited. On 4th of July we fired thousands of AK tracers across the night sky. That 2003-2004 so I'm sure that the Army's a lot more strict these days.

[Sloppy Joe2]

its your own fault if you get killed either by the weapon or because it fails and you get killed.its not that simple, one death, wound, injury or whatever can put tremoundous stress on the remaining part of the squad, platoon ect.. to continue operations as before. you get yourself killed, it has a large impact on those around you.


We just used our captured ones for fun in Iraq. We'd take them out on patrol along with our assigned weapons to use for shooting at cans, bottles, blown up tanks, etc. We also had a homemade target range at our camp to shoot AKs, RPGs, PKs, etc. Hell, the ammo supply was unlimited. On 4th of July we fired thousands of AK tracers across the night sky. That 2003-2004 so I'm sure that the Army's a lot more strict these days.understatement grunt, things are a hell of lot more strict. ;)

[AmericanKaliber]

this vid shows a pretty cool comparison of M16 vs AK-47 and the rounds they carry.



yeah they also fail to mention how badly the m16 jams...hands down, if ever i was to select a rifle to tkae to combat...it would be the Ak...lots more reliable in the battlefield. Dont think you wanna be caught with your pants down while in a firefight. generally speaking, "cleaning your gun in the middle of a firefight." there are ups and downs.

happened in Vietnam, and with hands on past experience, did the same thing to me.

[Sloppy Joe2]

yeah they also fail to mention how badly the m16 jams...hands down, if ever i was to select a rifle to tkae to combat...it would be the Ak...lots more reliable in the battlefield. Dont think you wanna be caught with your pants down while in a firefight. generally speaking, "cleaning your gun in the middle of a firefight." there are ups and downs.

happened in Vietnam, and with hands on past experience, did the same thing to me.
GOD ****ING DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LaoSexMachine]

yeah they also fail to mention how badly the m16 jams...hands down, if ever i was to select a rifle to tkae to combat...it would be the Ak...lots more reliable in the battlefield. Dont think you wanna be caught with your pants down while in a firefight. generally speaking, "cleaning your gun in the middle of a firefight." there are ups and downs.

happened in Vietnam, and with hands on past experience, did the same thing to me.

fvcking idiot

[AmericanKaliber]

a lil respect thank you. :)

[California Joe]

yeah they also fail to mention how badly the m16 jams...hands down, if ever i was to select a rifle to tkae to combat...it would be the Ak...lots more reliable in the battlefield. Dont think you wanna be caught with your pants down while in a firefight. generally speaking, "cleaning your gun in the middle of a firefight." there are ups and downs.

happened in Vietnam, and with hands on past experience, did the same thing to me.

You're 17, you know sh*t about anything. Especially Vietnam. I swear to Gawd I would sell my kids for a Mod feature that would allow me to reach through this computer and choke the sh*t out of you.

[LaoSexMachine]

a lil respect thank you. :)

for a shytbag????

[T3ngu]

a lil respect thank you. :)

Im no expert, but your post read as if your weapon has jammed in combat. Hence the comments.

Oh yeah, and your 17. You were just a twinkle in your daddys eye during Vietnam.

[AmericanKaliber]

You're 17, you know sh*t about anything. Especially Vietnam. I swear to Gawd I would sell my kids for a Mod feature that would allow me to reach through this computer and choke the sh*t out of you.

good luck.rofl

[AmericanKaliber]

Im no expert, but your post read as if your weapon has jammed in combat. Hence the comments.

it has hasnt it.

[T3ngu]

it has hasnt it.

You have been in combat and had a rifle jam? Who were you fighting?

[AmericanKaliber]

You have been in combat and had a rifle jam? Who were you fighting?

Sandbags...Paper men with paper rifles.

Come on cant we just get along. :)

Instead of insulting me...why dont you try and educate me.

[T3ngu]

Sandbags...Paper men with paper rifles.

Come on cant we just get along. :)

Instead of insulting me...why dont you try and educate me.

I stopped fighting sandbags after one jumped up and kicked me in the nuts.

[AmericanKaliber]

wonder what you did to deserve that.

[T3ngu]

wonder what you did to deserve that.

Slept with her paper target girlfriend :)


Sandbags...Paper men with paper rifles.

Come on cant we just get along. :)

Instead of insulting me...why dont you try and educate me.

Lets look at AudieM249. He has been in Iraq and has posted some really informative stuff over time. If he were to make a comment about a particular weapon or topic, I would regard it as better info over something say you may post.

There have been so many posts here about the difference between the weapons and calibres over time, that I, even as a layman, know with regard to your post it comes down to taking care of your weapon and cleaning it. Ill leave it to the experts to go further than that.

**edit I though you were 17, now your 21?

[Midn./Patriot]

I think AmericanKaliber, despite his lack of spelling ability, has just aged 4 years somehow.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Sandbags...Paper men with paper rifles.

Come on cant we just get along. :)

Instead of insulting me...why dont you try and educate me.lurk around this website, and read all the posts in a thread.

this way you find out who is in the know and you also keep from redeveloping a already discussed and closed issue. try it out

[AmericanKaliber]

I think AmericanKaliber, despite his lack of spelling ability, has just aged 4 years somehow.

hmm...no i think i spelled everything correct.

[LaoSexMachine]

wonder what you did to deserve that.

now you are 21?

[California Joe]

Sandbags...Paper men with paper rifles.

Come on cant we just get along. :)

Instead of insulting me...why dont you try and educate me.

Then how about you shut your cockholster, quit aging rapidly, stop posing as a combat veteran of anything, do a little research about firearms, and refrain from making definitive statements about weapons that you've only used playing COD4 you little mouth breathing ****.

[Midn./Patriot]

hmm...no i think i spelled everything correct.

I was talking about your name dude, nevermind this is a waste of time.

[boone]

How is it that everyone with a variation of "Caliber" in their Name is a douchebag? Those guys are almost as bad as the guys with "Sniper" in their name.

[California Joe]

Funny you should say that boone, look at his profile picture...:roll:

[AmericanKaliber]

Then how about you shut your cockholster, quit aging rapidly, stop posing as a combat veteran of anything, do a little research about firearms, and refrain from making definitive statements about weapons that you've only used playing COD4 you little mouth breathing ****.

someone didn't take their meds this morning.

[T3ngu]

someone didn't take their meds this morning.

Ooh ooh do it do it Joe.

[AmericanKaliber]

i obviously dont care...CJ, dont have an Xbox. Mdn. patr. thats how i meant to spell it, see you in the after life.

[California Joe]

Later asshat.

[Midn./Patriot]

i Mdn. patr. thats how i meant to spell it, see you in the after life.

This is some kinda Grim Reaper Mofo

[Alfacentori]

What is it with all the poser wannabes lately, it seems like the next superstealthcalibursniper is just around the corner and always trying to educate the real Vets/experienced people on here about what the greatest "Gat" is :cantbeli:



Alfa

[Chulo]

Funny you should say that boone, look at his profile picture...:roll:
lol.. did u check his myspace link? now hes 26
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=228495969 and in Afghanistan

[T3ngu]

lol.. did u check his myspace link? now hes 26
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=228495969 and in Afghanistan

Its his 17-21-26th birthday today.


"We Know no mercy, and do not ask for any." Grammar!

[Sloppy Joe2]

lol.. did u check his myspace link? now hes 26
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=228495969 and in AfghanistanWTF! i thought he was just ignorant.

[Chulo]

Its his 17-21-26th birthday today.

"We Know no grammar, and do not ask for any." Grammar!
Fixed .

[IMTT]

ORIGINAL POSTING "I'm tryin to figure this out.....are our guys allowed to pick up captured enemy weapon (specifically the AK-47 in Iraq) in place of the issued M16A2 or M4? Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour."

Wow; that is a no go! The Brigade CSM would lose his d-nm mind if he saw a troop with an AK or any other weapon than his issue. Not that I ever saw my CSM or anyone elses at any FOB, TIC or on patrol. I did see this weapon supplement issue weapons at times in NTVs (non-tactical vehicles) but never used as a primary or anything other than a throw down or back up weapon. Generally they remained hidden from veiw specifically when entering the gate at Kandahar AF. I don't know where or when these M4s jammed broke or didn't generally work so much, I never had that experience...nor did my team. Maybe the NCOs in charge of those troops with jamming weapons should do a better job of PMCS and basic skills. Sounds like squad leaders failing to do their jobs or young troops writing cool stuff on some BLOG / board. Frankly I would never throw away my M4 for some AK piece of junk. This is unless I was out of ammo, out of luck and the last weapon remaining (any gun is better than no gun) in the fight placed in my hands by the all mighty God (In-ShAli), of course extra ammo and a path to make a tactical retorgrade would be nice as well with all my buddies. Perhaps I would trade for a M21 on specific occasions but not many. I'll take that M249 please which we did on occasion...which is nice as a supplement along with an AT4. This is not to mention the RPKs and other assorted little goodies looking for homes. Just my opinion and observations based on personal experience for what's it's worth...which may not be much


Respectfully

[Lienad]

Man...harsh thread eh. lol

[Chulo]

Man...harsh thread eh. lol

see what we do to posers?


;)

[Lienad]

lol...nice... What was he posing as? wait dont tell me....an afghani farmer.

[Midn./Patriot]

I still trying to figure out what happened in this thread. Migs started a thread about whether coalition forces could use captured firearms in place of theirs, and then Andreas sarcasticly suggested the topic of 5.56 Nato vs. 7.62x39 be discussed. Migs then says, "hey lets not talk about that, it will cause problems". But some people took the bait and somebody said 5.56 rounds will not kill with a headshot?? And then it went to pot, and two new members got vacations because they were somehow offended.

[Chulo]

lol...nice... What was he posing as? wait dont tell me....an afghani farmer.
a 17 / 21/ 26 year old Vietnam vet - but lucky we could do math!

[Lienad]

where does he say im a vietnam vet at? i need a good laugh

[California Joe]

Par for the course around here.

IMTT thanks for the hands on experience.

[Chulo]

where does he say im a vietnam vet at? i need a good laugh

not really a Vietnam vet .. but just put too much into his little mouth
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3043554#post3043554
when he says " happened in Vietnam, and with hands on past experience, did the same thing to me."

[Lienad]

dont take me as someone who is agreeing with this guy but i think he was refering to the rifle, not the war

[Sloppy Joe2]

dont take me as someone who is agreeing with this guy but i think he was refering to the rifle, not the wardoesnt matter, regardless he is a tard talking on a matter with no extended knowledge and very irritating topic for those who know better.

[Lienad]

Should of "Educated" him.

[Sloppy Joe2]

Should of "Educated" him.i tried, you can lead a dumbass to information, but you cant make him think.

[VMICadetJNA]

dont take me as someone who is agreeing with this guy but i think he was refering to the rifle, not the war
Regardless, if hes talking about the rifle, he needs to be smacked by a nun from a Catholic school for his shytty grammar. If hes talking about the war he deserves a punishment far worse than my unimaginative little brain can think up at 2340. I am amazed though at how all the posers and wannabees (present company excluded) are congregating in this thread thus making Hollis' and Cali Joe's job of cleaning house oh so much easier.

[jimmyboots]

Back in 04 when I was attached to a MP Plt we found a Sterling L2A3, with no magazines. Too bad cause 9mm was plentiful, and our command at the time wouldnt have had a problem with us using it. Our Plt Sgt on the other had would have probably snagged it up for himself.p-) We gave it to our armorers to see if they could figure something out, never saw it again.:-(

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o316/frankydec/DSC00661.jpg

http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o316/frankydec/DSC00662.jpg

We also had a couple of Ak's that were bullet hoses and kinda cool at first. I would have never traded one for my silver recievered M16a2p-)

Semper Fi.

[beNder]

lol.. did u check his myspace link? now hes 26
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=228495969 and in Afghanistan

BAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA and he is a stone cold killa!!! roflroflroflroflrofl

[Migs]

It had nothing to do with you. It was an honest question, as Hollis said. And I think you have some decent answers. Yes it happens and no it is not SOP.

The trouble happens when jackasses go off topic and start inserting ill informed opinions about ballistics, capabilities, weapons...or anything else some guy told them or they read or heard....

alrite i get....thx guy

[Lt. James Anderson]

Back in 04 when I was attached to a MP Plt we found a Sterling L2A3, with no magazines. Too bad cause 9mm was plentiful, and our command at the time wouldnt have had a problem with us using it. Our Plt Sgt on the other had would have probably snagged it up for himself.p-) We gave it to our armorers to see if they could figure something out, never saw it again.:-(

I got to shoot Sterling, Swedish Carl Gustav smg, Chinese and Yugoslavian AKs and a couple of SKSs of different manufacture (Chinese ones sucked the most, half of them would jam, they would chamber a round but failed to fire, failed to eject the round etc.).

[orange]

I got to shoot Sterling, Swedish Carl Gustav smg, Chinese and Yugoslavian AKs and a couple of SKSs of different manufacture (Chinese ones sucked the most, half of them would jam, they would chamber a round but failed to fire, failed to eject the round etc.).
The Swedish K is the shyt. A buddy of mine was actually issued one just a couple of years back. He was pretty pissed off at that fact. rofl

[oregongrunt]

ORIGINAL POSTING "I'm tryin to figure this out.....are our guys allowed to pick up captured enemy weapon (specifically the AK-47 in Iraq) in place of the issued M16A2 or M4? Ive read some soldier blogs and it seems some got tired of their M16/M4 jamming, picked up an AK off dead guy and used it the remainder of thier tour."

Wow; that is a no go! The Brigade CSM would lose his d-nm mind if he saw a troop with an AK or any other weapon than his issue. Not that I ever saw my CSM or anyone elses at any FOB, TIC or on patrol. I did see this weapon supplement issue weapons at times in NTVs (non-tactical vehicles) but never used as a primary or anything other than a throw down or back up weapon. Generally they remained hidden from veiw specifically when entering the gate at Kandahar AF. I don't know where or when these M4s jammed broke or didn't generally work so much, I never had that experience...nor did my team. Maybe the NCOs in charge of those troops with jamming weapons should do a better job of PMCS and basic skills. Sounds like squad leaders failing to do their jobs or young troops writing cool stuff on some BLOG / board. Frankly I would never throw away my M4 for some AK piece of junk. This is unless I was out of ammo, out of luck and the last weapon remaining (any gun is better than no gun) in the fight placed in my hands by the all mighty God (In-ShAli), of course extra ammo and a path to make a tactical retorgrade would be nice as well with all my buddies. Perhaps I would trade for a M21 on specific occasions but not many. I'll take that M249 please which we did on occasion...which is nice as a supplement along with an AT4. This is not to mention the RPKs and other assorted little goodies looking for homes. Just my opinion and observations based on personal experience for what's it's worth...which may not be much


Respectfully

You are right on, my M4 always performed well in combat. They should clean their weapons more often.

[Lt. James Anderson]

The Swedish K is the shyt. A buddy of mine was actually issued one just a couple of years back. He was pretty pissed off at that fact. rofl

Actually it's pretty good weapon and I was able to put almost every round in the human size target at 25 m.
It has a slow rate of fire. You can feel the bolt sliding back and forth as you press the trigger ...

If irrc it is fired from an open bolt position and has no safety ... :)

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6/image01ir9.jpg

[orange]

Actually it's pretty good weapon and I was able to put almost every round in the human size target at 25 m.
It has a slow rate of fire. You can feel the bolt sliding back and forth as you press the trigger ...

If irrc it is fired from an open bolt position and has no safety ... :)

I'm not saying that it's a bad weapon. I'm only saying that my Buddy, in the 21th century, conscripted in the Swedish Army and was issued a Kpist/45 (Swedish designation) when everybody else got a AK5. It's almost as if you enlist in the US army and instead of getting an M4 you're getting a Grease Gun. :)

And yeah, it fires from an open bolt and has no safety. A gun for Hoot!! :)

[Kap]

This only semi relates to this thread, but my unit is not allowed to use any "captured" weapons, as it causes confusion to our side. What are you more likely to shoot at? The sound of an AK firing near you, or the sound of an M16 / M4?

They are worried about friendly fire, so no captured enemy weapons will be used unless if it is an absolute emergency to do so.

[orange]

This only semi relates to this thread, but my unit is not allowed to use any "captured" weapons, as it causes confusion to our side. What are you more likely to shoot at? The sound of an AK firing near you, or the sound of an M16 / M4?

They are worried about friendly fire, so no captured enemy weapons will be used unless if it is an absolute emergency to do so.
That can't be a real reason seeing that the Iraqi Army/Police and the ANA both use the AK family and now I'm not even mentionen alot of the other allies that uses it.

[Kap]

That can't be a real reason seeing that the Iraqi Army/Police and the ANA both use the AK family and now I'm not even mentionen alot of the other allies that uses it.

Yeah I know, but that is our SOP at least. I think it's retarded in general because exactly what you said, the police / army / ANA all use the type of weapon that we are against.

But that is the type of BS they fed us when we asked about using enemy weapons a month or so ago.

Being worried about friendly fire, so only your own assigned weapon can be used unless if you're out of ammunition.

[Lt. James Anderson]

SOP or not, you MUST make sure you know what you're shooting at. I've seen it many times where that kind of thinking could've resulted in friendly casualties. Even one time a half of plt almost got smoked because people didn't know what they were doing. Honestly, that is one thing I was really scared of in Iraq and Afghanistan - the mentality of shoot first, ask questions later ... or tigger happy scared idiots.


I'm not saying that it's a bad weapon. I'm only saying that my Buddy, in the 21th century, conscripted in the Swedish Army and was issued a Kpist/45 (Swedish designation) when everybody else got a AK5. It's almost as if you enlist in the US army and instead of getting an M4 you're getting a Grease Gun. :)

And yeah, it fires from an open bolt and has no safety. A gun for Hoot!! :)

Well, it can still hold its own at close range that's for sure. I wouldn't compare it to a Grease Gun, it's a piece of crap (I guess it was good enough at the time it was made but not for long). That's why Swedish K was preferred during the Vietnam War ..

[gafkiwi]

Personally I think think soldiers should not carry enemy weapons in most cases. The only exceptions I see are the example in the past of tank/veh crews or troops not all having long arms issued e.g. Brits swapping smgs for captured FN FALs in the Falklands. The only other example is use of enemy support weapons (i.e. machine guns) captured during an assault and switched onto the enemy.

Basically a soldier learns to operate his (issued) weapon systems instinctively i.e. points of aim, IA drills etc over Months or Years of training. To begin using a captured weapon in anything but an emergancy is asking for a whole world of problems.

[desertwarrior123]

Id tend to agree with that, in all aspects(apart from if your ever issued a sh**y weapon like a M1100 shotgun, which I hate). If theres something wrong with your rifle, you've probrably done something wrong (apart from firing pins, which you should be keeping an eye on at all time anyhow).