BBC: No More Mandelas

[Rudolph]

This Sunday I watched a BBC documentary about South Africa, and would like to share this outsider's view. They cover crime, corruption, and our ANC leader Jacob Zuma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtGptNvz5Hg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrSlP-_QwS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkYlPkEQPpA

Enjoy! ;)

[Tokamak]

Thanks for sharing.

[LHM]

That Zuma asshole pisses me off. Someone has to kill this idiot.

[Ordie]

That Zuma asshole pisses me off. Someone has to kill this idiot.


Why not vote for the Democratic Alliance Party members for the National Assembly or Council of Provences.

To save democracy, you need to use democracy.

[SBL]

Great post, buddy. It's at once interesting and sad to watch the backward slide taking place there. Thanks.

[SBL]

To save democracy, you need to use democracy.
That's assuming the democracy is worth saving.

[Rudolph]

The only democracy left is in the Western Cape, which is controlled by the Democratic Alliance, whom I vote for. But the ANC has done everything in its power to crush the Western Cape. The local ANC even refused to vacate office after we won the elections. Another politician had to wear a bullet-proof vest because of various attempts on his life. These days the country isn't even producing enough electricity to run all the mines, so thousands stand to lose their jobs. Power cuts are now a way of life for us.

[SBL]

That Zuma asshole pisses me off. Someone has to kill this idiot.

He reminds me of one of my Poli Sci professors in college. Same manner of speech and argumentation, etc. He also happens to work for the UN.

[Rudolph]

He reminds me of one of my Poli Sci professors in college. Same manner of speech and argumentation, etc. He also happens to work for the UN.

Mysteriously the documentary forgot to include a translation of the song Zuma sang at the rally. The words are basically "bring me my machine gun," that is our future president's favourite song!

[Ordie]

That's assuming the democracy is worth saving.

I don't like buying real estate twice nor do I want Americans to be sent into another failed state.

[Rudolph]

Assassinating Zuma right now will play into the hands of various groups of people, each with some disturbing fantasy. White supremacists, African communists, dictators, etc.

[SBL]

I don't like buying real estate twice nor do I want Americans to be sent into another failed state.

Hey man, that's your opinon and you're entitled to it. I just don't think democracy is some kind of panacea, or that it's worth propping up regardless of how ineffectual or mismanaged it may be.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was suggesting we intervene.

[Ordie]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was suggesting we intervene.

We did so in Somalia and got burned...
We didn't in Rwanda and still got burned...
Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

What we learned from these events is the power of tribal chiefs, warlords and poltical bosses have over the individual Africans. The co-dependency between the bosses and the individuals keeps economic progress in check and feeds power to the power broker.

The only means to thwart this instable situation is through democracy, transparency and connecting individuals into the global grid without powerbrokers.

Rudolph has pointed out something interesting. The ANC is playing favorites through political patronage. At the expense of areas that voted for the opposition. This encourages South African dependency on the ANC bosses for goods and services. Political patronage compromises transparency and individual economic growth.

This is what happened in Kenya, a country with economic growth, but lack of transparency, and economic distribution led to the deaths of thousands through ethnic cleansing. Thus creating a vacuum for AQ, the Sudanese or other to fill in.

Overall, US is largely responsible for the end of Aparthied and evolution of its multi-racial Democractic system, we need to make sure it succeeds through transparency. If we don't, then the rest of Africa becomes a devil's playground for anarchy.

[SBL]

We did so in Somalia and got burned...
We didn't in Rwanda and still got burned...
Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

What we learned from these events is the power of tribal chiefs, warlords and poltical bosses have over the individual Africans. The co-dependency between the bosses and the individuals keeps economic progress in check and feeds power to the power broker.

The only means to thwart this instable situation is through democracy, transparency and connecting individuals into the global grid without powerbrokers.

Rudolph has pointed out something interesting. The ANC is playing favorites through political patronage. At the expense of areas that voted for the opposition. This encourages South African dependency on the ANC bosses for goods and services. Political patronage compromises transparency and individual economic growth.

This is what happened in Kenya, a country with economic growth, but lack of transparency, and economic distribution led to the deaths of thousands through ethnic cleansing. Thus creating a vacuum for AQ, the Sudanese or other to fill in.

Overall, US is largely responsible for the end of Aparthied and evolution of its multi-racial Democractic system, we need to make sure it succeeds through transparency. If we don't, then the rest of Africa becomes a devil's playground for anarchy.

I don't think I would compare the political fallout from inactivity in Rwanda with the loss of blood and treasure suffered in Somalia. And again, nowhere did I suggest that it was incumbent on us to intervene. But I digress...

I'm no scholar of African politics or society,it's all a bit murky to me, so I don't have any specific suggestions. But, I think the facts you raise concerning the power of local strongmen and political patronage underscores my opinion that a firmer hand is needed to break their hold on the populace.
I am not suggesting that a democratic South Africa be thrown out or abandoned, but that perhaps the idea of a seamless transition from Apartied state to a modern, functioning democracy be suspended for the sake of doing some house cleaning.
I guess my point is that, things being as they are, I don't have a lot of faith in the people being able to vote more responsible people into power. From the bits I pick up from this website and from other various sources, the situation is deteriorating at a pretty fair clip. I'd prefer decisive action sooner, rather than maintaining the status quo and hoping that things improve.
South Africa is still in transition, but I get the sense that the transition will be for the worst unless some changes are made.
Does that make any sense? Who knows.

-edit-
I think our fundamental disagreement stems from how much faith we have in people power. I'm of the opinion that when (almost) everyone is of the same mind, it's great. But when we're dealing with a situation where we are dealing with an any number of of groups, like tribes for instance, a firmer hand is needed to get everyone in line. The governmental corruption in SA, I think, only serves to increase division. Does that clarify my stance a bit?

[Tokamak]

The only democracy left is in the Western Cape, which is controlled by the Democratic Alliance, whom I vote for. But the ANC has done everything in its power to crush the Western Cape. The local ANC even refused to vacate office after we won the elections. Another politician had to wear a bullet-proof vest because of various attempts on his life. These days the country isn't even producing enough electricity to run all the mines, so thousands stand to lose their jobs. Power cuts are now a way of life for us.

Rudolph, do you know if the nuclear station is up and running again?. When we visited it last year both of the reactors were down for some "technical" problems.

[phoebus]

So this guy was clean and purposely had *** with somebody he knew was HIV positive? Did I get it right folks?

Anyhow, I know from friends that South Africa is not going very well and it saddens me because I have always had an admiration for them.

[MJC9678]

Anyone else see Africa being destroyed by their own leaders? They threw the colonial powers out, and now each once-prosperous country is being ruined. They are just not ready for self rule.

[wilhelm]

Some points If I may.

The nuclear power station is back up and running. It was down for a few weeks.

South Africa is not like other African Nations. It has infrastructure and large scale heavy industry, and a well developed service sector. That's where the good new ends.....

All the good things mentioned were developed under Apartheid, where at least a western-level mentality and accountability prevailed. That is why South Africa was so developed, and still rates in the top 10% largest economy in the world. Roads, rail, harbours, clean water, hospitals etc... However..... a couple of things to mention, and I hope nobody gets upset with me, but everything I say can be verified by looking at modern Africa...

There is no such thing as democracy in Africa. It is foreign. It doesn't work. Africa operates on the strongman/tribal chief mentality.... and this has nothing to do with education. It is an ingrained mental block. It is about power, not accountability. The voting fodder voting for the fraudulent rapist Jacob Zuma today will push their begging bowls in you face tomorrow and insist it is your fault. They will list the usual litany of Slavery (like there have never been white/asian slaves in history:roll:) Colonialism, Apartheid etc etc....ad nauseum. This is why people starve to death and hack each other to death in Africa you see. It is not their fault that they wanted to vote for a criminal illiterate. He dances nicely. And that is why Africa is doomed .... no sense of responsibility for ones actions. An illustration is Zuma's rape trial. He basically stated the following: (it beggars belief)

A women who wears a dress by the knees is asking to be "taken". A real man doesn't wear condoms , and in any case, a shower after unprotected *** with a HIV positive person will ensure you remain un-affected.

Yes.

Frightening, isn't it?

There is no solution to Africa that can be discussed politely. Every year people starve to death. Over and over again. Africa crumbles. Africa cannot plan further than the end of the day it seems. Although it defies belief, South Africa seems to be staggering under the same murder, theiving, corrupt, racist incompetence that blights all of Sub-Suharan Africa.:-(. Again. Every time.

Africa needs to realise that it cannot keep blaming others. That colonialism, particularly under Britain, gave then sustainable countries with infrastructure that now no longer exists. The sooner Africa realises that Africans are to blame, the sooner the continent will move forward. But, as stated above, I fear that will never, ever happen.

It is terribly sad.:-(

[Rudolph]

As mentioned, power is currently a crisis here, and hopefully this link still works. More great journalism from the team at Carte Blanche, shocking mentality. (might be removed due to legal issues):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGcPfoc_yTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lUWo6bc9IE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3A5Uf8YfYc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NBM5wr9qW8&feature=related

[ren0312]

Some points If I may.

The nuclear power station is back up and running. It was down for a few weeks.

South Africa is not like other African Nations. It has infrastructure and large scale heavy industry, and a well developed service sector. That's where the good new ends.....

All the good things mentioned were developed under Apartheid, where at least a western-level mentality and accountability prevailed. That is why South Africa was so developed, and still rates in the top 10% largest economy in the world. Roads, rail, harbours, clean water, hospitals etc... However..... a couple of things to mention, and I hope nobody gets upset with me, but everything I say can be verified by looking at modern Africa...

There is no such thing as democracy in Africa. It is foreign. It doesn't work. Africa operates on the strongman/tribal chief mentality.... and this has nothing to do with education. It is an ingrained mental block. It is about power, not accountability. The voting fodder voting for the fraudulent rapist Jacob Zuma today will push their begging bowls in you face tomorrow and insist it is your fault. They will list the usual litany of Slavery (like there have never been white/asian slaves in history:roll:) Colonialism, Apartheid etc etc....ad nauseum. This is why people starve to death and hack each other to death in Africa you see. It is not their fault that they wanted to vote for a criminal illiterate. He dances nicely. And that is why Africa is doomed .... no sense of responsibility for ones actions. An illustration is Zuma's rape trial. He basically stated the following: (it beggars belief)

A women who wears a dress by the knees is asking to be "taken". A real man doesn't wear condoms , and in any case, a shower after unprotected *** with a HIV positive person will ensure you remain un-affected.

Yes.

Frightening, isn't it?

There is no solution to Africa that can be discussed politely. Every year people starve to death. Over and over again. Africa crumbles. Africa cannot plan further than the end of the day it seems. Although it defies belief, South Africa seems to be staggering under the same murder, theiving, corrupt, racist incompetence that blights all of Sub-Suharan Africa.:-(. Again. Every time.

Africa needs to realise that it cannot keep blaming others. That colonialism, particularly under Britain, gave then sustainable countries with infrastructure that now no longer exists. The sooner Africa realises that Africans are to blame, the sooner the continent will move forward. But, as stated above, I fear that will never, ever happen.

It is terribly sad.:-(

The last time I visited South Africa it still seemed to be in pretty good shape, but then that was in May 2002.

[ren0312]

Some points If I may.

The nuclear power station is back up and running. It was down for a few weeks.

South Africa is not like other African Nations. It has infrastructure and large scale heavy industry, and a well developed service sector. That's where the good new ends.....

All the good things mentioned were developed under Apartheid, where at least a western-level mentality and accountability prevailed. That is why South Africa was so developed, and still rates in the top 10% largest economy in the world. Roads, rail, harbours, clean water, hospitals etc... However..... a couple of things to mention, and I hope nobody gets upset with me, but everything I say can be verified by looking at modern Africa...

There is no such thing as democracy in Africa. It is foreign. It doesn't work. Africa operates on the strongman/tribal chief mentality.... and this has nothing to do with education. It is an ingrained mental block. It is about power, not accountability. The voting fodder voting for the fraudulent rapist Jacob Zuma today will push their begging bowls in you face tomorrow and insist it is your fault. They will list the usual litany of Slavery (like there have never been white/asian slaves in history:roll:) Colonialism, Apartheid etc etc....ad nauseum. This is why people starve to death and hack each other to death in Africa you see. It is not their fault that they wanted to vote for a criminal illiterate. He dances nicely. And that is why Africa is doomed .... no sense of responsibility for ones actions. An illustration is Zuma's rape trial. He basically stated the following: (it beggars belief)

A women who wears a dress by the knees is asking to be "taken". A real man doesn't wear condoms , and in any case, a shower after unprotected *** with a HIV positive person will ensure you remain un-affected.

Yes.

Frightening, isn't it?

There is no solution to Africa that can be discussed politely. Every year people starve to death. Over and over again. Africa crumbles. Africa cannot plan further than the end of the day it seems. Although it defies belief, South Africa seems to be staggering under the same murder, theiving, corrupt, racist incompetence that blights all of Sub-Suharan Africa.:-(. Again. Every time.

Africa needs to realise that it cannot keep blaming others. That colonialism, particularly under Britain, gave then sustainable countries with infrastructure that now no longer exists. The sooner Africa realises that Africans are to blame, the sooner the continent will move forward. But, as stated above, I fear that will never, ever happen.

It is terribly sad.:-(

I know it may be very politically incorrect to ask but is it something due to genetics, i.e., race?

[wilhelm]

I know it may be very politically incorrect to ask but is it something due to genetics, i.e., race?

I'm not sure. I mean, a person would have to be crazy to enjoy watching others fail. That's what makes it so frustrating.

Until recently, every single sub-saharan African country relied on some form of aid from outside Africa. There was not a viable entity amongst them, South Africa excluded. You'd think someone would get pee'd off and try and rectify that from within...:roll:

[Invisigoth]

I know it may be very politically incorrect to ask but is it something due to genetics, i.e., race?

Its history, development whatever you want to call it. Jumping from tribal and regional societies into modern developed world usually doesn't work so well. People might know how to operate a cell phone and an AK but concepts like mass democracy never were or had a chance to be developed.

[playtym]

Pfff..... I dismiss all of your points as being "old business." p-)

[wilhelm]

Its history, development whatever you want to call it. Jumping from tribal and regional societies into modern developed world usually doesn't work so well. People might know how to operate a cell phone and an AK but concepts like mass democracy never were or had a chance to be developed.

I've thought about that and maybe there's some truth there. Yet Africa is hardly a newly discovered continent. And some of the smaller Asian nations were also relatively undeveloped and unmodern, and yet have made the transition to an orderly modern society...Sierra Leone has been independant for longer than the majority of Asia...but it's still a primitive cesspit with no infrastructure, violence, low life expectancy, lack of the most basic human rights .... etc...etc.

[Rudolph]

Anyone else see Africa being destroyed by their own leaders? They threw the colonial powers out, and now each once-prosperous country is being ruined. They are just not ready for self rule.

Good point. This is the major difference I see between the West and Africa and the Middle East. I know the West was responsible for two terrible World Wars, genocide, etc. But no matter how corrupt we get, and what we do to others, it is very rare for us to hurt our own people as a rule. Yet, the most resource-rich countries in the world are the poorest. That pretty much says it all... I always judge governments/people by the way they treat their own. That's why I hate communist states so much. They might be liberators to all the African states they helped "free", but they had no quals murdering their own people to maintain their internal system. Cambodia, Russia, Zimbabwe...