Should students be able to conceal carry on campus?

[dedbunniez]

This has been hopping in my mind for awhile. If a student on a college campus has a conceal carry permit should they be allowed to carry on campus? Currently at my school I am not allowed to carry if I wanted to. Some of the objections I have heard is that students aren't mature enough, sometimes lectures get heated and students can argue or get riled up by their professors, or my favorite there are campus police for this.

I was wondering what the viewpoints are of Mp.net. I feel that I should be allowed to carry if I have my CHL permit, as we can see "gun free" doesn't stop everyone.

[T3ngu]

This has been hopping in my mind for awhile. If a student on a college campus has a conceal carry permit should they be allowed to carry on campus? Currently at my school I am not allowed to carry if I wanted to. Some of the objections I have heard is that students aren't mature enough, sometimes lectures get heated and students can argue or get riled up by their professors, or my favorite there are campus police for this.

I was wondering what the viewpoints are of Mp.net. I feel that I should be allowed to carry if I have my CHL permit, as we can see "gun free" doesn't stop everyone.

My 0.02c is that if the Police think you are responsible enough to get a CHL permit to carry in most places, then you probably are responsbile enough. Its probably going to get to a point where you have to check into the university ala airports, but hey, thats not where we need to go.

Whether educational facilities are the place to carry weapons is probably the critical thing. It would not phase me, but it would the average joe blogs hippy.

[gaijinsamurai]

In my opinion, yes. If the state has strict requirements for obtaining a concealed carry permit, the permit holder has already demonstrated some ability to use the weapon efficiently, have a basic understanding of safety, and hopefully, not have a criminal or mental record.

I can understand the reluctance of university administrations to allow students to carry, but as we've seen in the past year, these restrictions give the innocent a false sense of security, if anything.

[dangerclose]

Yes.

......

[JJC]

I'm a supporter of gun rights and concealed carry, but I honestly do not want to be in a place of learning with students are running around with guns. My campus is unique that some students are in law enforcement and military, so there are people carrying. I would not be comfortable with others because of type of generation we are today.

I think it may be appropriate in some places where gun culture is the norm, not somewhere like here though.

[gaijinsamurai]

I can understand your concerns, JJC, and they are perfectly valid.

In the case of a university campus, maturity is a significant issue.
Would I feel completely at ease knowing a certain percentage of my fellow students were packing heat? I'd be lying if I said "yes".....

[I can't think of a name]

If you can in other areas where there are large concentrations of people then why not.

I personally have never felt the need to carry a weapon.

[dedbunniez]

I can understand your concerns, JJC, and they are perfectly valid.

In the case of a university campus, maturity is a significant issue.
Would I feel completely at ease knowing a certain percentage of my fellow students were packing heat? I'd be lying if I said "yes".....

But would you feel safe in a large crowded area knowing a certain percentage of fellow humans are packing heat? I have a hard time understanding the difference between students and a crowd. I do live in Texas, so there is a larger form of gun culture here.

[MaDuce]

Should be up to the university.

[phigment]

I'm in the same boat as those of you who say that if the police and local government think they're mature enough then they should be allowed to carry. My logic is that if a person was going to commit a crime they probably wouldn't go through the process of getting a permit.

The same people who have permits never get out of hand and shoot people over everyday disputes off campus, so why would it be different at school? It's a favorite argument of people who oppose it, but it's just illogical.

Plus, all college age people are old enough to join the military and be trusted with much more destructive weapons than handguns, even though there is a lot more training involved. All people in the military, however, aren't old enough to obtain a CCW permit. I think it's 21 in most places if you want a handgun or a permit.

Police are a response force most of the time, so I personally would feel safer knowing that I and possibly a few others in my class were armed rather than having a killer know that nobody is armed in my campus gun free zone and going on another shooting spree.

What about open carry?

[Zoomie]

In the case of a university campus, maturity is a significant issue.
Would I feel completely at ease knowing a certain percentage of my fellow students were packing heat? I'd be lying if I said "yes".....

But could you also say the same thing about the campus cops too?

[Hollis]

I can understand your concerns, JJC, and they are perfectly valid.

In the case of a university campus, maturity is a significant issue.
Would I feel completely at ease knowing a certain percentage of my fellow students were packing heat? I'd be lying if I said "yes".....


I think CCW has it's qualifications that would rule out a big number of the student body.

we are not talking about arming everyone.

[gaijinsamurai]

But would you feel safe in a large crowded area knowing a certain percentage of fellow humans are packing heat? I have a hard time understanding the difference between students and a crowd. I do live in Texas, so there is a larger form of gun culture here.

Good question. To a certain degree, "no", but that also has a lot to do with my work experience and present employment. I often pack a gun in public, and feel somewhat claustrophobic in crowds, especially when I wonder if someone who I've arrested might be behind me or rubbing elbows with my wife or kid.

Again, the issue of "maturity" comes to mind. The typical university campus has a lot of young adults who don't tend to make good decisions with their new-found freedom, and quite a few who have emotional problems due to stress and the pressures of being away from home for the first time.

Refer to my initial post. I do believe holders of concealed permits ought to be able to carry on campus. I only wrote that I can UNDERSTAND the misgivings of those who disagree with me.

[dedbunniez]

Good question. To a certain degree, "no", but that also has a lot to do with my work experience and present employment. I often pack a gun in public, and feel somewhat claustrophobic in crowds, especially when I wonder if someone who I've arrested might be behind me or rubbing elbows with my wife or kid.

Again, the issue of "maturity" comes to mind. The typical university campus has a lot of young adults who don't tend to make good decisions with their new-found freedom, and quite a few who have emotional problems due to stress and the pressures of being away from home for the first time.

Refer to my initial post. I do believe holders of concealed permits ought to be able to carry on campus. I only wrote that I can UNDERSTAND the misgivings of those who disagree with me.

I fully agree with the issue of maturity. And I think that is one of the major issues people come back to. I know that most people on campus I wouldn't trust with a CHL. But then again at my university we had a collegiate high powered team who were trusted with Ar-15's, off campus at a gun range of course.

Now that I think about it, how about requiring students to go through some sort of additional training?

[Mr.K]

Yes, but only in America.

[Will938]

So you would only be ok with LEO and military carrying, even though they are the same generation you speak so badly of? Why are they any more acceptable than a permit holder?

Of course permit holders should be allowed to carry on campus. Have any of these huge shootings been done by one of us? Can anyone point to a single incident in the 60 combined semesters of guns on campus at the several schools allowing it? Was it a huge problem in the 70's when people weren't so freaked out about guns on campus?

The bottom line is that permit holders are statistically much more law biding than the average person. So then why do people not give a **** that I can pack heat in a movie theater with a thousand people, but somehow a lecture hall is an off limits holy ground. Do I suddenly become less vulnerable once I enter their doors? Apparently not.

The anti-arguments are illogical, and it boils down to how I personally will be protected in the event of such an incident. Meaning that unless I have my own personal police officer attached to my hip, then I'm giving up my safety. All the plans to control such actions on a state level are obvious failures that serve only to continue the political agendas of the antis. All plans at the school level are only designed to reduce the overall damage (alert students to GTFO, lock buildings, etc). So basically, if you're in the room when the shooting starts (which is the only thing that matters anyway), you're ****ed and no one will be able to save you.

Any opposition to this idea after knowing the statistical facts is purely an irrational emotional response.

[gaijinsamurai]

One thing's for sure: If I were in a situation in which some armed lunatic was spraying bullets, I'd sure as hell want the means to stop him.

[Will938]

In the case of a university campus, maturity is a significant issue. Would I feel completely at ease knowing a certain percentage of my fellow students were packing heat? I'd be lying if I said "yes".....

Why? You can join the armed forces before you can carry concealed in most cases and they are entrusted with way more dangerous ****, and its the same age that many places allow you to be a police officer. And it isn't as if everyone gets one. Less than 1% of the population in many cases. So if maturity is an issue, then we're boned as a society.

[JJC]

Plus, all college age people are old enough to join the military and be trusted with much more destructive weapons than handguns, even though there is a lot more training involved. All people in the military, however, aren't old enough to obtain a CCW permit. I think it's 21 in most places if you want a handgun or a permit.

Police are a response force most of the time, so I personally would feel safer knowing that I and possibly a few others in my class were armed rather than having a killer know that nobody is armed in my campus gun free zone and going on another shooting spree.

What about open carry?

First, I assume basic training is designed to weed out certain types before they move on to be trusted with grenades? Also, most people in the military would not all qualify to sit next to the red button, for reasons. A lot of people don't make through the police academy training between the start and the oath. The number of ass hats who are "smart college students" is amazing. The immaturity that I witnessed at times is depressing.

I never feel safe at a shooting range with people like those who have 40 gun rights stickers on their trucks. I don't know why ccw owners are always seen as good law abiding citizens, and can never go astray?

When a psycho killer plans to murder students, I don't think he cares if the school is gun free zone, or will be deterred by knowing that someone might carry. He is on murder suicide mission.

How difficult is it really to get a ccw permit; I'm sure it's much easier in very pro gun states than somewhere like NJ. Do we expect these ccw students to be the SWAT and do room clearing in crowded halls, trying to take out the bad guy?

[Will938]

I wouldn't say it is "irrational emotional response" because a fear of guns is certainly a rational response. However, it is an emotional response that has no factual basis.

A fear of guns is irrational. It's just a tool, an inanimate object that won't function unless:

A: Someone manipulates it
B: We reach 800+ degrees

Its certainly rational, however, to fear the judgment of the owner...until, that is, you understand how great of a track record the group has. To demonstrate the this point I'll use the police as an example. Do you fear them because they carry a gun on their hip? Do you think of concealed permit holders equally?

[Polygon]

I believe that as long as students go through a basic safety and training course on CCW and successfully pass it, then yes. It shouldn't be something that is handed out liberally, but rather a license that is given out to responsible individuals who are properly instructed in being able to handle a concealed weapon.

Should we expect these license holders to have S.W.A.T. like ability when an emergency situation occurs? No, but at the very least, be able to use a firearm appropriately enough when the situation arises.

Edit: From my experience as a senior college student, most of the people I encounter are pretty idiotic and I would never trust them with a firearm. However, there are some who would probably be responsible enough to carry.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Being an ex staff member at a University I say no. Students are ****ing dumb ****s and having them armed is the last thing we the staff need.

[Firetxmi]

To play devils advocate:

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low and therefore there is very little need to carry on a campus?

[seraosha]

First, I assume basic training is designed to weed out certain types before they move on to be trusted with grenades?

The only "weeding out" process I remember were those that had objections to shooting another human...which apparently happens, despite folks going through ASVABs and MEPS and all those other acronyms I'm misspelling, they get to the range and there is that target...the bright green and red commie looking muthafvcker with the AK...and "ding" the light goes on and they realize they joined the Army to kill the enemy.

I don't know that being prepared to kill another human being necessarily makes you safer to be around...I don't have a problem with it, but many do.

[Lt. James Anderson]

It's not about guns.
It's a lot bigger problem. Also I heard the drugs these people were on do more harm than good, especially when they stop taking them ..

[Hollis]

Being an ex staff member at a University I say no. Students are ****ing dumb ****s and having them armed is the last thing we the staff need.


Not all the students, Silly. Lots of students are older people, ex-military, etc . Yeah no way should kids. BTW CCW has qualifications, Age is one of them. Plus training etc.........

[Polygon]

To play devils advocate:

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low and therefore there is very little need to carry on a campus?

That is true: statistically speaking, your chances of being shot at school are extremely low for the most part in spite of the rash of random shootings at various universities and schools. In terms of where I am at the moment, I feel safe enough that carrying a firearm isn't necessary and either a good pocket knife or collapsible baton would do the trick in the rare case you were assaulted.

[Will938]

I don't know why ccw owners are always seen as good law abiding citizens, and can never go astray?

Do we expect these ccw students to be the SWAT and do room clearing in crowded halls, trying to take out the bad guy?

Probably because CCW owners are statistically several times more law biding than the average person. They don't suddenly go psycho in other areas of the public, why do you find that they are any less trustworthy in a school? That and they're more likely than police to shoot the right person. And what about police, can they never go astray? Why should we put our lives in their hands, which they have no obligation to protect?

No, that isn't the point at all. We want to allow permit holders to carry at school so at least they'd have a chance to defend themselves. It isn't about anyone but the individual, a side benefit is the possibility of ending the killings of anyone else. It's a choice, and one they've proven to be very responsible with.

[Hollis]

To play devils advocate:

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low and therefore there is very little need to carry on a campus?


Well yeah, When was the last time you shot someone?

Now tomorrow someone may decide to shoot you. Problem with statistics in real life;

you have a revolver, with a hundred round cylinder. Only one is loaded, You play Russian Roulette.

The interesting aspect you really don't care what is in the 99 other cylinders, you really do care what is in the 1 cylinder that is under the hammer (1:99 odds).

If it was not required by law, would you have car insurance. Most people never get back what they pay into it. After the fact is one thing, during the experience it is another. Would you risk everything you own not knowing what will happen next.

[JJC]

Can someone tell me if the ccw process would prevent this recent ****er from getting his license? Like everyone else he didn't look or act like a nut job. His sociology professor never detected "signs" of trouble.

I think the concern and questions should be what is causing all this violence and rage, and how do we better manage these psychos- (p.c. term EDP's) in our society? No ccw on campus will cure that remaining problem.

[Firetxmi]

True points. I was just trying to show people another side of the statistics coin (which you aptly pointed out as well).

edit:
To use your example- I don't care about the 99 guys with CCW's that are good law abiding citizens I care about the one who f***ed up and shot me.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Not all the students, Silly. Lots of students are older people, ex-military, etc . Yeah no way should kids. BTW CCW has qualifications, Age is one of them. Plus training etc.........

I understand that. When I was a cashier at the University I was handling at times hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash. Students would be carrying around up to 20k in cash to pay fees.

Now considering how much financial pressure students are under let alone the pressure of being a student the risk is to great for armed robbery.

I'd much rather have isolated mass shootings then CCW allowed on campus. There is also the added risk of bystanders being injured and killed. Universities have huge amounts of people in them. The one I worked 20k odd students and up to 5k staff.

We didn't even allow campus security to be armed.

[BloodyTalon]

God willing there will never be a situation like VT and NIU at my college, but nevertheless I still would like CC, or at least the abolishment of so-called "gun free zones." In my case, the campus is so small and confined that if someone did snap and went on a shooting spree, he could easily kill a lot of innocent people in a short amount of time. Because of this, I don't want to take any chances and would like to have some sort of way to defend myself in those worst case scenarios.

[Will938]

To play devils advocate:

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low and therefore there is very little need to carry on a campus?

Yes, but there are more dangers than mass shootings. I have received 3 violent crime warnings on or near campus in the last two weeks. Assaults, robberies, and such being much more common as you go about your business on campus.

[phigment]

Do we expect these ccw students to be the SWAT and do room clearing in crowded halls, trying to take out the bad guy?Obviously not, but seeing as a few college students are former or current military it's a possibility that some might.

On the other hand, we could just do what's currently done in many schools and let them be sitting ducks for the next guy who decides to go on a suicide shooting spree. If there's the chance that someone can shoot the guy and spare more casualties, why not take it?

[Firetxmi]

Yes, but there are more dangers than mass shootings. I have received 3 violent crime warnings on or near campus in the last two weeks. Assaults, robberies, and such being much more common as you go about your business on campus.

How many would have qualified as a "good shoot," using CCW standards?

[Hollis]

True points. I was just trying to show people another side of the statistics coin (which you aptly pointed out as well).


Yes, we all know what has happened. It is what will happen that generally scares people.

When I went through LE academy, the stats at that time was the average LEO would never fire their pistol on duty. Also the Average LEO shot in the line of duty was killed by his own pistol.

It is a choice and hopefully those who have CCW's are aware of the responsibility of carrying a sidearm.

I have a CCW, and rarely carry. That is my choice, it is not forced upon me. I choose the risk.

I sure would hate to be in a situation (it happens) where I could not defend my love ones, myself or others, just to wait to see how it all ends.

[Mr.K]

Um, anyone thought of those armed students shooting eachother because of confusion in time of crisis? There is a reason why soldiers, police officers and security professionals wear uniforms.

[Will938]

Can someone tell me if the ccw process would prevent this recent ****er from getting his license? Like everyone else he didn't look or act like a nut job. His sociology professor never detected "signs" of trouble.

I think the concern and questions should be what is causing all this violence and rage, and how do we better manage these psychos- (p.c. term EDP's) in our society? No ccw on campus will cure that remaining problem.

Actually, its very possible. I recall there being a clause about mental health. The guy depended on medication and spent time in a mental hospital, both of those would probably DQ him after the background investigation you go through.

As for curing the problem...if I'm allowed to pack and have a fair chance at living, then my problem is solved. If others choose not to carry then so be it.




(6) is not a chemically dependent person;

(d) For purposes of Subsection (a)(7), a person is incapable of
exercising sound judgment with respect to the proper use and storage
of a handgun if the person:
(1) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician as suffering from
a psychiatric disorder or condition that causes or is likely to cause
substantial impairment in judgment, mood, perception, impulse
control, or intellectual ability;
(2) suffers from a psychiatric disorder or condition described by
Subdivision (1) that:
(A) is in remission but is reasonably likely to redevelop at a
future time; or
(B) requires continuous medical treatment to avoid redevelopment;
(3) has been diagnosed by a licensed physician or declared by a
court to be incompetent to manage the person's own affairs; or
(4) has entered in a criminal proceeding a plea of not guilty by
reason of insanity.

(e) The following constitutes evidence that a person has a psychiatric
disorder or condition described by Subsection (d)(1):
(1) involuntary psychiatric hospitalization in the preceding
five-year period;
(2) psychiatric hospitalization in the preceding two-year period;
(3) inpatient or residential substance abuse treatment in the
preceding five-year period;
(4) diagnosis in the preceding five-year period by a licensed
physician that the person is dependent on alcohol, a controlled
substance, or a similar substance; or
(5) diagnosis at any time by a licensed physician that the person
suffers or has suffered from a psychiatric disorder or condition
consisting of or relating to:
(A) schizophrenia or delusional disorder;
(B) bipolar disorder;
(C) chronic dementia, whether caused by illness, brain defect,
or brain injury;
(D) dissociative identity disorder;
(E) intermittent explosive disorder; or
(F) antisocial personality disorder.

[Lt. James Anderson]

Um, anyone thought of those armed students shooting eachother because of confusion in time of crisis? There is a reason why soldiers, police officers and security professionals wear uniforms.

Actually cops and security professionals are not that good with guns (unless they are ex-military). At least from what I've seen. And even in the military you have a lot of people that can'tr shoot for sheet ...

[Hollis]

Um, anyone thought of those armed students shooting eachother because of confusion in time of crisis? There is a reason why soldiers, police officers and security professionals wear uniforms.


And how do you factor in response time?

Minny, If CCW was allowed;

1) you would not know who is and who is not carrying. If you could tell, they would no longer carry.

2) the % that carry is a small number. Even in this situation it may not have mattered.

These murders have been picking areas that are Illegal to carry. A CCW holder would not carry in those areas.

A lot of CCW carriers are ex-military and LE, all have training. All have had back ground checks.

[Firetxmi]

Will, do they check medical records though? Or is it like the DPS here in Texas who ask you on you DL app. whether you have been diagnosed with any mental illness and leave it up to the applicant to disclose? Unless said person has had contact with LEO because of the psychiatric condition it would not usually pop up on the background check.

[JJC]

Actually, its very possible. I recall there being a clause about mental health. The guy depended on medication and spent time in a mental hospital, both of those would probably DQ him after the background investigation you go through.

Only if they would apply such ccw rules to actually buying guns from stores as well, maybe we would get much less of these nut jobs doing these mass shootings.

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

This has been hopping in my mind for awhile. If a student on a college campus has a conceal carry permit should they be allowed to carry on campus? Currently at my school I am not allowed to carry if I wanted to. Some of the objections I have heard is that students aren't mature enough, sometimes lectures get heated and students can argue or get riled up by their professors, or my favorite there are campus police for this.

I was wondering what the viewpoints are of Mp.net. I feel that I should be allowed to carry if I have my CHL permit, as we can see "gun free" doesn't stop everyone.

YES!!!

For all reasons stated above in similar responses (I do not want to echo what's already been said, just add another 'yes' you the bunch)

[Hollis]

Will, do they check medical records though? Or is it like the DPS here in Texas who ask you on you DL app. whether you have been diagnosed with any mental illness and leave it up to the applicant to disclose? Unless said person has had contact with LEO because of the psychiatric condition it would not usually pop up on the background check.


Well is anything 100% certain. Is that beautiful gal your taking out to dinner really a female.

There are back ground checks, NCIS, Training, letters of recommendation. I think the Statistics on CCW holder speak pretty clear on this issue. I am not saying everyone should own or carry. IMHO I don't want everyone owning or carrying a firearm. Too many Darwin awards candidates out there.

Seriously, Check with your LEO in your area what it takes. I think all states are a little different.

[Will938]

How many would have qualified as a "good shoot," using CCW standards?

Let me go through them real quick...actually one of the three was a bomb threat, so I'll take the closest warning after that.


On Monday February 11, 2008, at approximately 9:15 p.m., Officers with the College Station Police Department responded to the College Station Medical Center regarding a male victim who was injured during an attempted robbery. The male victim reported that he was jogging in the 400 block of Thompson when he was approached by a male subject. The male subject demanded the victim’s IPOD. The victim refused to turn over the IPOD and the male subject struck the victim in the face with a sharp object. The victim fought back striking the male subject twice in the face and knocking him to the ground. The male subject then fled the area without any property from the victim. The victim sustained a four to five inch laceration on the side of his face and was treated at the Medical Center.


On February 8, 2008, at approximately 4:34 a.m., College Station Police officers responded to the 900 block of Crepe Myrtle in reference to a possible Burglary of a Habitation in progress. Upon arrival, officers made contact with a female victim who stated that an unknown male had broken into her residence and ******ly assaulted her. The victim stated that the suspect had threatened to harm her during the assault.


At approximately 12:42 a.m., Sunday, January 20, 2008, Texas A&M University Police officers responded to Bizzell Street by the South Side Parking Garage in response to a 9-1-1 call. A female victim reported she was walking on the sidewalk along Bizzell Street towards the South Side Parking Garage. A male suspect approached her from behind, grabbed her messenger bag off of her shoulder, and sprinted towards the South Side Parking Garage. The female victim shouted at the male suspect and pursued him to an awaiting vehicle parked in the dumpster area by the South Side Parking Garage. During this time, a passing motorist noticed the victim pursuing the suspect. The motorist then blocked the exit of the suspect’s vehicle. The victim continued to demand the return of her property from the suspect and the occupants of the vehicle. At this point, the victim stated three males exited the vehicle while the operator attempted to maneuver out of the drive. The male suspect dropped the bag as he fled the area with the other male occupants of the vehicle. The operator of the suspect vehicle was successful in exiting the drive and was last seen traveling in the direction of George Bush Drive.


So according to these the first two would, without a doubt, have been good shoots. The third one is hazy; by the letter of the law it would likely be a good shoot, but I personally wouldn't have considered shooting because the threat instantly diminished and they never got aggressive again.

[Will938]

Will, do they check medical records though? Or is it like the DPS here in Texas who ask you on you DL app. whether you have been diagnosed with any mental illness and leave it up to the applicant to disclose? Unless said person has had contact with LEO because of the psychiatric condition it would not usually pop up on the background check.

I'm not sure of the specifics (I could probably find out), but they were very serious about it. It took 65 days to completely process my application, and anything official in my name was mulled over.

[Firetxmi]

Well is anything 100% certain. Is that beautiful gal your taking out to dinner really a female.

There are back ground checks, NCIS, Training, letters of recommendation. I think the Statistics on CCW holder speak pretty clear on this issue. I am not saying everyone should own or carry. IMHO I don't want everyone owning or carrying a firearm. Too many Darwin awards candidates out there.

Seriously, Check with your LEO in your area what it takes. I think all states are a little different.

I have checked, and do plan on getting mine as soon as time and money permit.

I was at DPS the other day and noticed that question on the list of things they ask before you can get your DL. I just thought of it when he mentioned they did a check. The background check would only catch the few who have had LEO contact do to their psychiatric disorder. When I saw the question on the DPS form I thought it was really stupid- how many people are going to voluntarily say yes and not get their DL. The same could be said for those who want a CCW (unless they do check medical records).

Will- those are interesting. Were they all on A&M's campus?

[Will938]

Only if they would apply such ccw rules to actually buying guns from stores as well, maybe we would get much less of these nut jobs doing these mass shootings.

Anyone buying a gun from a store already has to follow federal guidelines. Go through the instant background check and all that. The bottom line is that we really can't stop these people through legislation, but rather through fixing whatever the social issue is that makes them think killing is ok. Gun murder isn't the problem, murder is. That's basically what I'm getting at; everyone always blames the object instead of the person wielding it.

[JJC]

Anyone buying a gun from a store already has to follow federal guidelines. Go through the instant background check and all that. The bottom line is that we really can't stop these people through legislation, but rather through fixing whatever the social issue is that makes them think killing is ok. Gun murder isn't the problem, murder is. That's basically what I'm getting at; everyone always blames the object instead of the person wielding it.

No current federal guidelines have any provisions to weed out nut cases because of medical privacy laws. Considering that these nut jobs had some past documented records of mental issues and treatments; I'm sure if the store clerk would have the ability to see that would not have sold.

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

My take on the situations, embedded.


Let me go through them real quick...actually one of the three was a bomb threat, so I'll take the closest warning after that.


On Monday February 11, 2008, at approximately 9:15 p.m., Officers with the College Station Police Department responded to the College Station Medical Center regarding a male victim who was injured during an attempted robbery. The male victim reported that he was jogging in the 400 block of Thompson when he was approached by a male subject. The male subject demanded the victim’s IPOD. The victim refused to turn over the IPOD and the male subject struck the victim in the face with a sharp object. The victim fought back striking the male subject twice in the face and knocking him to the ground. The male subject then fled the area without any property from the victim. The victim sustained a four to five inch laceration on the side of his face and was treated at the Medical Center.

Just because you can carry, doesn't mean you have to all the time. There have been muggings, robberies, attempted rapes of joggers at the local university here, but I don't feel scared enough not to jog around the campus at night without carrying. It's a risk I am willing to take.


On February 8, 2008, at approximately 4:34 a.m., College Station Police officers responded to the 900 block of Crepe Myrtle in reference to a possible Burglary of a Habitation in progress. Upon arrival, officers made contact with a female victim who stated that an unknown male had broken into her residence and ******ly assaulted her. The victim stated that the suspect had threatened to harm her during the assault.

In my house, the guy wouldn't have made it 3 steps into any room when my wife or I may have been. That's not a CCW scenario, it's a "generic" self defense one. No matter what, anyone that illegally forces entry into a house is a candidate to get shot.


At approximately 12:42 a.m., Sunday, January 20, 2008, Texas A&M University Police officers responded to Bizzell Street by the South Side Parking Garage in response to a 9-1-1 call. A female victim reported she was walking on the sidewalk along Bizzell Street towards the South Side Parking Garage. A male suspect approached her from behind, grabbed her messenger bag off of her shoulder, and sprinted towards the South Side Parking Garage. The female victim shouted at the male suspect and pursued him to an awaiting vehicle parked in the dumpster area by the South Side Parking Garage. During this time, a passing motorist noticed the victim pursuing the suspect. The motorist then blocked the exit of the suspect’s vehicle. The victim continued to demand the return of her property from the suspect and the occupants of the vehicle. At this point, the victim stated three males exited the vehicle while the operator attempted to maneuver out of the drive. The male suspect dropped the bag as he fled the area with the other male occupants of the vehicle. The operator of the suspect vehicle was successful in exiting the drive and was last seen traveling in the direction of George Bush Drive.

I don't believe this would be a good shoot. If no immediate threat of death or bodily injury, I believe in escalation of force would be a good rule to go by. They were fleeing, which means there should be no shot.

Just my $0.02USD. :)

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

No current federal guidelines have any provisions to weed out nut cases because of medical privacy laws. Considering that these nut jobs had some past documented records of mental issues and treatments; I'm sure if the store clerk would have the ability to see that would not have sold.

Here in Australia that is the complete opposite. A family member of mine (Hollis knows who I'm referring to) has over the past 9 months has had a suicide attempt, 2 instances of physical self harm and is highly medicated because of her mental state. When she was admitted to a mental health facility, each family member that was a registered gun owner was contacted so the police could make sure the guns were properly secured so that when she was released she never had access to them.

She can still go shooting with friends/family and such but no longer can shoot without supervision or purchase firearms until given the all clear by a mental health practitioner which is then updated into the Firearms database or what ever it's called in this state.

[JJC]

This week a psychologist was hacked to death with a machete by her patient who was "unstable." The police could not access medical records due to Federal medical privacy laws. I think it's a bit ridiculous, especially with mental health patients.

[Dr.Piloolkin]

I wouldn't let college students carry sharp pencils let alone weapons. Then again why do you need permission to carry a CONCEALED weapon? Who is going to know if you conceal it? If people think its such an important issue, i don't think whether its legal matters any.

[Will938]

I have checked, and do plan on getting mine as soon as time and money permit.

I was at DPS the other day and noticed that question on the list of things they ask before you can get your DL. I just thought of it when he mentioned they did a check. The background check would only catch the few who have had LEO contact do to their psychiatric disorder. When I saw the question on the DPS form I thought it was really stupid- how many people are going to voluntarily say yes and not get their DL. The same could be said for those who want a CCW (unless they do check medical records).

Will- those are interesting. Were they all on A&M's campus?

They're either on or near campus.

And this is all the paperwork associated with a Texas CHL:
...well I can't find the picture I took, but it was very impressive.

[Will938]

No current federal guidelines have any provisions to weed out nut cases because of medical privacy laws. Considering that these nut jobs had some past documented records of mental issues and treatments; I'm sure if the store clerk would have the ability to see that would not have sold.

Point being that most criminals don't just snap, they have past records that prevent them from purchasing weapons. Who's to say that someone who "snaps" isn't a model person with no mental health record? Nothing does, hence the system will never be anywhere near flawless.

[Will938]

No current federal guidelines have any provisions to weed out nut cases because of medical privacy laws. Considering that these nut jobs had some past documented records of mental issues and treatments; I'm sure if the store clerk would have the ability to see that would not have sold.

Point being that most criminals don't just snap, they have past records that prevent them from purchasing weapons. Who's to say that someone who "snaps" isn't a model person with no mental health record? Nothing does, hence the system will never be anywhere near flawless.

[Will938]

Just because you can carry, doesn't mean you have to all the time. There have been muggings, robberies, attempted rapes of joggers at the local university here, but I don't feel scared enough not to jog around the campus at night without carrying. It's a risk I am willing to take.

In my house, the guy wouldn't have made it 3 steps into any room when my wife or I may have been. That's not a CCW scenario, it's a "generic" self defense one. No matter what, anyone that illegally forces entry into a house is a candidate to get shot.

I don't believe this would be a good shoot. If no immediate threat of death or bodily injury, I believe in escalation of force would be a good rule to go by. They were fleeing, which means there should be no shot.

Just my $0.02USD. :)

Well that's great, and that's a decision you've made for yourself. But you, me, or anyone else don't have the right to deny that person such an option. I bike all over my campus for exercise, usually late at night. I'm 23, in pretty good shape, and I know a bit of self defense. What about the 18 year old girl who won't be able to protect herself from such an attacker or the elderly prof? The majority (99%) will decide that firearms aren't for them, but the 1% who choose to do so have proven themselves fit/responsible and we shouldn't deny them their means of self defense.

Right, but the mentality is that guns make the situation worse. Just give the guy what he wants and let him go. I'm sure she bought into this idea before hand, I'm sure she regrets it. Horrible idea in this case, IMO.

tx and I are referring to Texas law and in this case, strictly looking at the law, it would have been no billed by a grand jury. Here are the important parts:


§ 9.41. PROTECTION OF ONE'S OWN PROPERTY. (a) A person
in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is
justified in using force against another when and to the degree the
actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful
interference with the property.
(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible,
movable property by another is justified in using force against the
other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force
is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the
property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit
after the dispossession and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no
claim of right when he dispossessed the actor; or
(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using
force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the
other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after ... or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

[Calanen]

Students are a bunch of morons. I wouldnt want a group of fraternity keggers with firearms at their next toga party. At a Romeo and Juliet theme party when I was at uni, they made everyone hand in their swords at the entrance, for good reason. They were worried, that sword fights with real swords might lead to some deaths as the night wore on. I was wearing a dagger, a real one..and some fat bitch on the dance floor decided to pull it from the scabbard and wave it around. After disarming said fat bitch with extreme prejudice, I was glad that she did not have a sword in her hands.

Alcohol and guns is a bad mix, or any weapon, and students and alcohol are always a mix.

Just give the campus security guns and have plenty of them about.

[gilgoul]

Thankfully, I can carry everywhere but in a few restricted places (national insurance office, night clubs etc...)
I guess that despite it's serious restrictions on gun ownership, the state of Israel still has some common sense when it comes to why permit holders carry in the first place.
Definitely, CCW holders should be able to carry on campus, maybe with some restrictions, like baring the freshmen to do so.

[Zoomie]

Can someone tell me if the ccw process would prevent this recent ****er from getting his license? Like everyone else he didn't look or act like a nut job. His sociology professor never detected "signs" of trouble.
Like most sociology professors could, or even would be able to?


Um, anyone thought of those armed students shooting eachother because of confusion in time of crisis? There is a reason why soldiers, police officers and security professionals wear uniforms.
Actually, they don't always do that. Case in point a few years back there was a friendly fire incident where unformed sheriff's deputy shot and killed an undercover campus cop who was displaying a gun. This happened because the two departments had failed to communicate.


Students are a bunch of morons. I wouldnt want a group of fraternity keggers with firearms at their next toga party. At a Romeo and Juliet theme party when I was at uni, they made everyone hand in their swords at the entrance, for good reason. They were worried, that sword fights with real swords might lead to some deaths as the night wore on. I was wearing a dagger, a real one..and some fat bitch on the dance floor decided to pull it from the scabbard and wave it around. After disarming said fat bitch with extreme prejudice, I was glad that she did not have a sword in her hands.

Alcohol and guns is a bad mix, or any weapon, and students and alcohol are always a mix.
And there you go just like everyone else, foolishly lumping people together with a stereotype, and not even bothering to think before you post. :slap: Have you met all of the college student in the world? Have you met me? Have you met other students who are ex-military or currently serving? The average college student doesn't own a gun, and concealed carry doesn't mean that everyone gets to carry a gun. :cantbeli: Concealed Carry Permit classes and the process are long enough and require enough effort that it would discourage most college students.


Just give the campus security guns and have plenty of them about.
Yeah, that's really the better alternative? I know I can hit the target better than most of the campus cops where I'm getting my degree, and I know I'm definitely in better shape than they are.

[Connaught Ranger]

Students are a bunch of morons. I wouldnt want a group of fraternity keggers with firearms at their next toga party. At a Romeo and Juliet theme party when I was at uni, they made everyone hand in their swords at the entrance, for good reason. They were worried, that sword fights with real swords might lead to some deaths as the night wore on. I was wearing a dagger, a real one..and some fat bitch on the dance floor decided to pull it from the scabbard and wave it around. After disarming said fat bitch with extreme prejudice, I was glad that she did not have a sword in her hands.

Perhaps it would have been safer if you had followed the "Hand in the edged weapons at the door rule" yourself?

Despite the "fat bitch" doing something stupid if the item was not within arms reach, an unsecured, then it could not have been taken from you.

In the case you were part of the very same problem that they were trying to prevent.

Connaught Ranger:)

[Afro-European]

Which university would want to have 200 "Rambo" in an auditorium?

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I understand that. When I was a cashier at the University I was handling at times hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash. Students would be carrying around up to 20k in cash to pay fees.

Now considering how much financial pressure students are under let alone the pressure of being a student the risk is to great for armed robbery.

I'd much rather have isolated mass shootings then CCW allowed on campus. There is also the added risk of bystanders being injured and killed. Universities have huge amounts of people in them. The one I worked 20k odd students and up to 5k staff.

We didn't even allow campus security to be armed.

How about instead of jumping to conclusions we listen to University staff!!!!!!

[Afro-European]

I agree with you.The police would have had a hard time sorting out victims and culprits after a shooting.


I'm a supporter of gun rights and concealed carry, but I honestly do not want to be in a place of learning with students are running around with guns. My campus is unique that some students are in law enforcement and military, so there are people carrying. I would not be comfortable with others because of type of generation we are today.

I think it may be appropriate in some places where gun culture is the norm, not somewhere like here though.

[James]

This has been hopping in my mind for awhile. If a student on a college campus has a conceal carry permit should they be allowed to carry on campus?

Yes.


Currently at my school I am not allowed to carry if I wanted to.

Is that a "rule" or the law?


Some of the objections I have heard is that students aren't mature enough, sometimes lectures get heated and students can argue or get riled up by their professors, or my favorite there are campus police for this.

That's classic, general issue anti-gun idiot drivel. They often project their emotional instability onto the rest of us... "What if I got angry? I might want to shoot someone!" But we're crazy for wanting to protect ourselves... :roll:
Students aren't mature enough? Well, that's something to argue about - so many college students these days are immature, and they have an AMAZING sense of entitlement. On the other hand, you can have a 20 or 21 year old leading a patrol in Iraq or Afghanistan...


I was wondering what the viewpoints are of Mp.net. I feel that I should be allowed to carry if I have my CHL permit, as we can see "gun free" doesn't stop everyone.

You're g-damn right you should be able to carry. Campus cops obviously don't stop anyone either.

[LaoSexMachine]

Which university would want to have 200 "Rambo" in an auditorium?



having a chl doesnt make you rambo. i carry and i dont go strutting around like billy badass.

yes students should.

[Afro-European]

I don't mean it litterally.Being surrounded by 200 classmates with guns won't make me feel safe.Maybe becoz i'm a Dutch... i don't know lol.We don't have that gun popping culture here.


having a chl doesnt make you rambo. i carry and i dont go strutting around like billy badass.

yes students should.

[LaoSexMachine]

I don't mean it litterally.Being surrounded by 200 classmates with guns won't make me feel safe.Maybe becoz i'm a Dutch... i don't know lol.We don't have that gun popping culture here.


you will not know who's carrying and who's not.

[Moledet]

Knowing friends of mine that are in American/Canadian universities, I wouldn't let anyone under 21 carry a weapon unless he was military trained.

In Israel it's different, most students are 22+ years old, have been in the army and so I have no problem with them carrying weapons even not concealed and I am certain no one is going to run guns blazing at our universities.

[dedbunniez]

One thing I want to clear up. In the U.S. you must be 21 to own a handgun, and must be 21 to be eligible to conceal carry. So the people who are saying that 18-20 year olds shouldn't carry the law agrees with you.

[Zoomie]

I don't mean it litterally.Being surrounded by 200 classmates with guns won't make me feel safe.Maybe becoz i'm a Dutch... i don't know lol.We don't have that gun popping culture here

If you don't know, then don't make stupid comments like that. I guarantee in you'll never have a class with over a hundred people carrying guns, maybe one or two at most, but not 200. :bash:


One thing I want to clear up. In the U.S. you must be 21 to own a handgun, and must be 21 to be eligible to conceal carry. So the people who are saying that 18-20 year olds shouldn't carry the law agrees with you.
And it's also not as simple as just saying "Hey, I want a CCW permit." There's a process you need to go through, along with training.

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

Well that's great, and that's a decision you've made for yourself. But you, me, or anyone else don't have the right to deny that person such an option. I bike all over my campus for exercise, usually late at night. I'm 23, in pretty good shape, and I know a bit of self defense. What about the 18 year old girl who won't be able to protect herself from such an attacker or the elderly prof? The majority (99%) will decide that firearms aren't for them, but the 1% who choose to do so have proven themselves fit/responsible and we shouldn't deny them their means of self defense.

Right, but the mentality is that guns make the situation worse. Just give the guy what he wants and let him go. I'm sure she bought into this idea before hand, I'm sure she regrets it. Horrible idea in this case, IMO.

tx and I are referring to Texas law and in this case, strictly looking at the law, it would have been no billed by a grand jury. Here are the important parts:

Maybe I wasn't totally clear. I am all for responsible citizens carrying. I think there needs to be LESS gun control legislation, and I wish California was more like Nevada, AZ, and Texas when it came to gun control/laws favoring citizens (ie: castle law, CCW, etc).

The point I was trying to make is that each situation warrants different judgment by different people (you may have thought all 3 scenarios were legit shooting scenarios, I don't) and there is no reason to live in a state of paranoia.

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

How about instead of jumping to conclusions we listen to University staff!!!!!!

The faculty at my University don't want peace officers or the military on campus during job fairs because there are too many uniformed people on the campus. :roll:

Like they have rational thoughts on the subject? rofl

[orionhawk]

Yes. I am not in college at this time, but a couple of the Universities in my area have campuses that have basically eaten two entire cities. That means I routinely find myself on-campus, whether I want to be there or not (one of the schools is NOT military-friendly). I believe MI has an exception to the Criminal Free-fire Zones laws for college campuses.

And, as others pointed out, CPL/CHL/CCW holders go through a pain-in-the-ass process to get those licenses. It includes making sure they can shoot to a certain minimum level of accuracy, along with an extensive background check and waiting period. In toto, here, at least, it costs over $200 and takes 30-60 days or more, depending on your county. Someone having criminal intent is not generally gonna go to the trouble.

As referenced earlier, there has NEVER been a peer-reviewed study showing crime to increase when concealed-carry laws were loosened. Most showed decreases in crime, the rest no change. Many of the studies which showed no change had an outside factor in place which normally would have caused an increase in crime rates, including one conducted here in MI. (Our economy is in the crapper.)

I have a Michigan CPL (Concealed Pistol License - they call it that so people know it doesn't license you to carry anything dangerous, like a Taser, Pepperspray, or a dagger), and I occasionally choose not to carry. Very occasionally. Like, when I have to wear a uniform I can't conceal in. Or when I go somewhere that has metal detectors, which I don't do often.

I do not choose to allow others to tell me when I may protect myself.

[Andreas]

NO

...................

[orionhawk]

any explanation of your reasoning for your stance, Andreas?

Keep in mind, every school shooting which has occurred in the US has occurred in a "Gun-Free Zone".

[phigment]

NO

...................Do you have any reason for that opinion?

[Andreas]

Guns in school,work and other places doesnt make sence to me.
I live in a pretty safe country where the idea of your classmate, coworker or neighbour carrying a loaded snubnosed 38 is unimaginible to me.
In Norway firearms are for hunting and the Army, and it works.

That being said I would like to own a G3, a SIG and a good scoped rifle, but just for range fun. Going to buy dinner packing heat would never be an option.

Difference in culture basicly.

Cheers
Andreas

[oldsoak]

MHO - nope, I'm against. Before anyone gets touchy, I have no problem with mature, responsible grown ups legally owning and carrying, but OMG, some of the students I've met on campus I wouldnt trust with anything more lethal than a toilet roll - and then only under supervision. Not anywhere near as much sound judgement as there should be on campus - and that just some of the lecturers.
Sorry chaps, but your founding fathers did not have the criminally inclined, pot-heads or the downright dangerous in mind when the penned the bill of rights. They intended it for those who respected the laws of G*d and man in those days, and took very robust views on those that broke them.

[Miles.]

In the case of a university campus, maturity is a significant issue.
Would I feel completely at ease knowing a certain percentage of my fellow students were packing heat? I'd be lying if I said "yes".....

That sums up my view.


Not against it, but it would disturb me a little to know that jackass in the corner has a handgun. I don't know.

[orionhawk]

MHO - nope, I'm against. Before anyone gets touchy, I have no problem with mature, responsible grown ups legally owning and carrying, but OMG, some of the students I've met on campus I wouldnt trust with anything more lethal than a toilet roll - and then only under supervision. Not anywhere near as much sound judgement as there should be on campus - and that just some of the lecturers.
Sorry chaps, but your founding fathers did not have the criminally inclined, pot-heads or the downright dangerous in mind when the penned the bill of rights. They intended it for those who respected the laws of G*d and man in those days, and took very robust views on those that broke them.
The majority of those irresponsible pothead-types don't have CPL's. Many of them, if you asked them if they were interested in getting one, would have a condescending response about paranoiacs and fear.

I'm not sure about other versions of the course, but I know my instructors would have forcibly ejected any potheads or total crazies. And the documentation and background check even asked about reckless driving.

As said earlier, several states already allow concealed carry on college campuses. Note the lack of bloodbaths in the streets in those locations.

[Indiana Jones]

I'm surprised nobody has bothered to comment on the links and the paper I put up a whole page ago.
This is the internet. Scholarly substance is generally not appreciated, nor desired in the first place.

[lider_r]

A fear of guns is irrational. It's just a tool, an inanimate object

I don't think anybody has ever disputed that a it's an inanimate object.

If we apply the same logic then we shouldn't be afraid of nuclear weapons, artillery shells with nerve gas in them, roadside bombs, radioactive materials- these are all inanimate objects.


The bottom line is that we really can't stop these people through legislationyou can try (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/20/us/20cnd-guns.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1203442294-ehRGe4jYuh3LZypgfS71cg&oref=slogin)


Gun murder isn't the problem, murder is. speechless

I think there needs to be LESS gun control legislation

so psychiatric outpatients should not be scrutinized when it comes to buying a gun?

Allowing students to carry guns on campus sets a precedent. Whats next- high schools? the workplace? meditation retreats?

[Moledet]

One thing I want to clear up. In the U.S. you must be 21 to own a handgun, and must be 21 to be eligible to conceal carry. So the people who are saying that 18-20 year olds shouldn't carry the law agrees with you.
In that case, if it's carried in a way that it can't be taken by anyone but the owner than I am fine with it.

[Laconian]

No current federal guidelines have any provisions to weed out nut cases because of medical privacy laws. Considering that these nut jobs had some past documented records of mental issues and treatments; I'm sure if the store clerk would have the ability to see that would not have sold.

Not true. Under 18 USC 922(g)(4) it is unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting interstate commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate of foreign commerce.

I also have no problem with licensed CCW folks carrying on campus, with same exceptions that limit their carry off-campus: no alcohol consumption, no carriage in bars, etc.

[Indiana Jones]

nevermind...

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

so psychiatric outpatients should not be scrutinized when it comes to buying a gun?

Allowing students to carry guns on campus sets a precedent. Whats next- high schools? the workplace? meditation retreats?

No, that's not what I am saying. I believe in background checks and strict rules when it comes to psychiatric issues. Kids should not be carrying guns around, but responsible adults should be allowed to pending they take a class and show that they are responsible enough to safely operate and deal with the implications of using a weapon.

[marius]

I don't see how 'a campus' differs in any way from any other situation or place in society - hence I see no reason to ban student or staff from carrying concealed weapons.
I don't understand how you can regard students as immature and potentially dangerous whilst turning them into lawyers or civil servants.

[Evil Scientist]

To play devils advocate:

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low and therefore there is very little need to carry on a campus?

There were some replies to this one allready but imo they strayed or misinterpreted.
Here goes,

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low YEs but only if all campus goers are ccw owners and as i gather from this thread that is not the case. Therefore the chance of being shot goes up.


There is one other that wasn't mentioned; There is shooting in progress, and ccw owners are present and they draw for protection.
Now LEO (&SWAT) arrives and try to clear the site. I think this is a very untransparent shooting incident with multiple firearms brandished. An accident waiting to happen I would say.

[dedbunniez]

Allowing students to carry guns on campus sets a precedent. Whats next- high schools? the workplace? meditation retreats?

I am not going to answer any of your other asinine questions, but will answer this one. As I have explained and several others have as well. A high school student is not able to carry in the first place, you can not own a handgun if you are under 21 in the U.S. Workplaces have their own rules and regulations, in Texas it is a right to work state. So if the employer wants to fire you for the color of your hair that day then they can. Please do not bring any arguments about nuclear bombs or any other asinine comments to the thread.

[dedbunniez]

There were some replies to this one allready but imo they strayed or misinterpreted.
Here goes,

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low YEs but only if all campus goers are ccw owners and as i gather from this thread that is not the case. Therefore the chance of being shot goes up.


There is one other that wasn't mentioned; There is shooting in progress, and ccw owners are present and they draw for protection.
Now LEO (&SWAT) arrives and try to clear the site. I think this is a very untransparent shooting incident with multiple firearms brandished. An accident waiting to happen I would say.

To your first point, yes my chances of being shot at school are low. But I still roll the dice every time I attend class, or for that matter go anywhere. Having a CCW is a deterrent to crime, they won't know you have it. They won't know who has it. But the fact that some one may or may not have a weapon may make them think twice.

As to your second point, yes it goes up. But that is the risk that CCW must be willing to take, and I know if I was in a room and saw swat come in I would hit the floor very quickly. Hopefully the SWAT team is trained enough to know that I am a good guy. If not then I rolled the dice.

[Mr.K]

And how do you factor in response time?

Minny, If CCW was allowed;

1) you would not know who is and who is not carrying. If you could tell, they would no longer carry.

2) the % that carry is a small number. Even in this situation it may not have mattered.

These murders have been picking areas that are Illegal to carry. A CCW holder would not carry in those areas.

A lot of CCW carriers are ex-military and LE, all have training. All have had back ground checks.

I'm not talking about the shooting skills of the person that carries, but rather him or her being mistaken for the suspect.
Imagine if the suspect is wearing jeans and a black t-shirt, and you happend to be dressed in the same way, both of you have a weapon. You just head that shots were fired, and being a good samaritain, you decide to go and confront the bad guy.
How can LEOs or other people that carry on campus would distinguish a "friend" from "foe"?

[orionhawk]

There were some replies to this one allready but imo they strayed or misinterpreted.
Here goes,

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low YEs but only if all campus goers are ccw owners and as i gather from this thread that is not the case. Therefore the chance of being shot goes up.


There is one other that wasn't mentioned; There is shooting in progress, and ccw owners are present and they draw for protection.
Now LEO (&SWAT) arrives and try to clear the site. I think this is a very untransparent shooting incident with multiple firearms brandished. An accident waiting to happen I would say.
key difference being that most CCW courses train very forcefully to drop your weapon immediately if LEO's so order, and even most SWAT units do not train to shoot first, at least not in the U.S.

[Zoomie]

key difference being that most CCW courses train very forcefully to drop your weapon immediately if LEO's so order, and even most SWAT units do not train to shoot first, at least not in the U.S.

Well, not just that, but what would be the point of keeping the gun out in the open if the threat has been neutralized? They're just coming up with what ifs for the sake of argument.

[Evil Scientist]

key difference being that most CCW courses train very forcefully to drop your weapon immediately if LEO's so order, and even most SWAT units do not train to shoot first, at least not in the U.S. Lack of knowledge on my side regarding CCW course, but this makes sense ofcourse.


To your first point, yes my chances of being shot at school are low. But I still roll the dice every time I attend class, or for that matter go anywhere. Having a CCW is a deterrent to crime, they won't know you have it. They won't know who has it. But the fact that some one may or may not have a weapon may make them think twice.

My bad, I forgot to put in my stand, which is on the yes do carry side. I was only trying to debunk FIReTXMIs statistical approach. (As a scientist must always do)

As to your second point, yes it goes up. But that is the risk that CCW must be willing to take, and I know if I was in a room and saw swat come in I would hit the floor very quickly. Hopefully the SWAT team is trained enough to know that I am a good guy. If not then I rolled the dice.

[orionhawk]

@ Zoomie

I know.

I can not believe this thread has stayed civil this long.woot It almost makes one feel some hope...

[dedbunniez]

I am hoping it stays nice and civil for as long as it can. And I will be actively reporting people who decide to start a flame war.

[SBL]

I'm as pro 2nd Amendment as the next guy, but I can't help but think that it's a bad idea. There's a lot of alcohol and drugs and freshman pukes with something to prove, throwing firearms in the mix just doesn't seem very wise.

[Will Clark]

I don't mean it litterally.Being surrounded by 200 classmates with guns won't make me feel safe.Maybe becoz i'm a Dutch... i don't know lol.We don't have that gun popping culture here.


Statistics would say that only about 2 in 200 people would choose to carry. Does that put you more at ease?

[Miles.]

I'm as pro 2nd Amendment as the next guy, but I can't help but think that it's a bad idea. There's a lot of alcohol and drugs and freshman pukes with something to prove, throwing firearms in the mix just doesn't seem very wise.

I'm sorry, yall, but that is a damn good argument.

[Evil Scientist]

Well, not just that, but what would be the point of keeping the gun out in the open if the threat has been neutralized? They're just coming up with what ifs for the sake of argument.


Not just for the sake of argument and certainly not an argument against carry as you imply.
Mind you i'm not in the US and my experience with ccw is therefore very limited. What-if's are good way to learn and imo it would be a fair situation.

what would be the point of keeping the gun out in the open if the threat has been neutralized. I didn't state the threat was down, I was only thinking if there was a shooting "down the hall" with DOAs i would prefer to have a weapon out in the open instead of waiting to do a quick-draw.

What I didn't think through was the ROE for swat, but i got they would announce themselves well ahead which is a fair enough warning to drop the weapon.

[orionhawk]

I'm as pro 2nd Amendment as the next guy, but I can't help but think that it's a bad idea. There's a lot of alcohol and drugs and freshman pukes with something to prove, throwing firearms in the mix just doesn't seem very wise.
It is illegal to handle a firearms while under the influence of alcohol. (at least in MI.) Freshman will generally be underage to legally possess handguns (those who aren't will usually be significantly more mature). Those who can legally have CPL/CCW/CHL's, and choose to do so, are generally going to be fairly mature individuals.

"under the influence of alcohol" in MI, for this purpose, is defined as greater than .01% BAC.

[Miles.]

Those who can legally have CPL/CCW/CHL's, and choose to do so, are generally going to be fairly mature individuals.

That's the prevailing assumption.

See in Texas, we regularly have "Whiskey and Handgun Night."

[Evil Scientist]

That's the prevailing assumption.

See in Texas, we regularly have "Whiskey and Handgun Night."

LOl is that where you have to do a quickdraw on a target and loser cq winner has to down a shot of whiskey

[vinny_121_ND]

What are the chances of getting shot at in school? Very slim. The chances of you getting hit by a car is much higher. When students are stressed out from school, coming out of bad relationships, from mixed signals, being drunk, lack of sleep, guns are the last thing you should be carrying.

[Firetxmi]

There were some replies to this one allready but imo they strayed or misinterpreted.
Here goes,

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low YEs but only if all campus goers are ccw owners and as i gather from this thread that is not the case. Therefore the chance of being shot goes up.


I think you misinterpreted my point.

Statistically here in the U.S. you have a very low chance of being shot at school. Our media here LOVES to hype it up though. It is the big story for weeks. It makes everyone feel that they are going to die in a school related shooting, all the talk radio pundits (right and left) get going on CCW's and schools. It becomes this huge affair.

What most Americans don't realize is that (even without a CCW owner being there) they have a really low chance of being shot at school.

That is what the point of my corollary was.

[SBL]

It is illegal to handle a firearms while under the influence of alcohol. (at least in MI.) Freshman will generally be underage to legally possess handguns (those who aren't will usually be significantly more mature). Those who can legally have CPL/CCW/CHL's, and choose to do so, are generally going to be fairly mature individuals.

Come on, man. I'm not only talking about freshmen here. I'm talking about lots and lots of unsupervised young people living in close proximity with each other. **** gets stolen, fights break out, kids do stupid things in the name of fun, kids just flat out make mistakes.
I'm not that far beyond my college years but looking back, we were all pretty immature--right up to my second senior year.p-) I'm glad I didn't have to worry about getting shot by some jerk after a bar fight, you know?

[orionhawk]

That's the prevailing assumption.

See in Texas, we regularly have "Whiskey and Handgun Night."
I based the comment on my own experience in MI, at CPL class, gun shows, and the range. at 26 and change, I was the youngest person in my class of about 20 people. the rest were mostly upper-20's/mid-30's, or relatively elderly. all 3 of those that had never fired nor owned a handgun were in their 40's. I am specifically referring to CPL holders, not handgun shooters in-general.

[Evil Scientist]

I think you misinterpreted my point.

Statistically here in the U.S. you have a very low chance of being shot at school. Our media here LOVES to hype it up though. It is the big story for weeks. It makes everyone feel that they are going to die in a school related shooting, all the talk radio pundits (right and left) get going on CCW's and schools. It becomes this huge affair.

What most Americans don't realize is that (even without a CCW owner being there) they have a really low chance of being shot at school.

That is what the point of my corollary was.


Yes missed that bit of info, so now it's clear to me, thnx

[vinny_121_ND]

I think you misinterpreted my point.

Statistically here in the U.S. you have a very low chance of being shot at school. Our media here LOVES to hype it up though. It is the big story for weeks. It makes everyone feel that they are going to die in a school related shooting, all the talk radio pundits (right and left) get going on CCW's and schools. It becomes this huge affair.

What most Americans don't realize is that (even without a CCW owner being there) they have a really low chance of being shot at school.

That is what the point of my corollary was.

I agree with that 100%. They call it an 'epidemic'. It is a tragedy that people died, but to be a widespread epidemic is another story. Blown out of proportion. Smoking kills more than school shootings. Drunk drivers kill more than school shootings.

[swamper]

There are freshmen old enough to have a CCW (not all freshmen are 18 year olds.). That is why there is an age stipulation on the acquiring of the CCW.

EDIT: I was late in my posting. The above is in response to the below.


I'm as pro 2nd Amendment as the next guy, but I can't help but think that it's a bad idea. There's a lot of alcohol and drugs and freshman pukes with something to prove, throwing firearms in the mix just doesn't seem very wise.

[orionhawk]

Come on, man. I'm not only talking about freshmen here. Lots and lots of unsupervised young people living in close proximity with each other. **** gets stolen, fights break out, kids doing stupid things in the name of fun, kids just flat out making mistakes.
I'm not that far beyond my college years but looking back, we were all pretty immature--right up to my second senior year.p-) I'm glad I didn't have to worry about getting shot by some jerk after a bar fight, you know?
that jerk would also have been violating the law (drinking and carrying, ntm SHOOTING SOMEONE). CPL holders don't tend to be the sort of people who go out, get drunk, and cap somebody over a bar-fight.

the original point is whether we think CCW should be legal on-campus. it refers to trained and licensed individuals, not joe-blow-drunkard. the poiint of my pointing out these laws is that laws don't matter to the peole who pull these stunts. they just make sure no one can defend themselves.

[Zoomie]

I definitely think all of you who keep on citing the immaturity and the party atmosphere of college as not the reason why people should be allowed to Concealed Carry on campus totally miss the point. Not everyone will be carrying, I would dare say at most 1% of a campus population would be, and I still think that's pretty high. It takes a lot of effort to get to get a CCW, and I know that most college kids don't want to put up with the hassle.

[dedbunniez]

I don't deny any facts that more people die in other situations or places. But why should my freedom to carry be limited at a learning facility?

[Calanen]

And there you go just like everyone else, foolishly lumping people together with a stereotype, and not even bothering to think before you post. :slap: Have you met all of the college student in the world? Have you met me? Have you met other students who are ex-military or currently serving? The average college student doesn't own a gun, and concealed carry doesn't mean that everyone gets to carry a gun. :cantbeli: Concealed Carry Permit classes and the process are long enough and require enough effort that it would discourage most college students.

I went to college for 6 years, thats a fair while, and more than most. So I do speak with some experience. The parties I went to at college were pretty wild, and guns in or around them would have been a very bad idea for students to have.I doubt students have changed a whole lot since I was there.

Although it would be nice to meet every student in the world, I dont think I would live long enough to do so.

[orionhawk]

I went to college for 6 years, thats a fair while, and more than most. So I do speak with some experience. The parties I went to at college were pretty wild, and guns in or around them would have been a very bad idea for students to have.I doubt students have changed a whole lot since I was there.

Although it would be nice to meet every student in the world, I dont think I would live long enough to do so.
and anyone carrying a gun at that wild college party, and not staying cold sober, would have been breaking the law. also, how many of those wild parties were on-campus(legit curiosity)?

[SBL]

that jerk would also have been violating the law (drinking and carrying, ntm SHOOTING SOMEONE). CPL holders don't tend to be the sort of people who go out, get drunk, and cap somebody over a bar-fight.

the original point is whether we think CCW should be legal on-campus. it refers to trained and licensed individuals, not joe-blow-drunkard. the poiint of my pointing out these laws is that laws don't matter to the peole who pull these stunts. they just make sure no one can defend themselves.

I dunno man, I see what you're saying, but I can't help but think you'd be opening up pandora's box.

[Zoomie]

I went to college for 6 years, thats a fair while, and more than most. So I do speak with some experience. The parties I went to at college were pretty wild, and guns in or around them would have been a very bad idea for students to have.I doubt students have changed a whole lot since I was there.
But was it in America? Do you know the laws that govern CCW Permits? It seems that most people who argue this way have not read the laws.

[orionhawk]

I dunno man, I see what you're saying, but I can't help but think you'd be opening up pandora's box.
again, this box is already open.

it is already legal to carry on-campus in several states, with a CCW/CPL.

people who are gonna cap somebody over a barfight are not gonna go unarmed just 'cuz it's illegal, any more than the shooters have been slowed down by gun-free-zone signs.

[IraGlacialis]

I myself am for it, but in a limited manner (complete with background checks, accuracy testing, etc). And places such as fraternities should have limits on them. Stupid stuff (I mean reeally stupid stuff) coming from fraternities is not just a sterotype, and guns being there is a really bad idea (not a risk of a school shooting; more a risk of some really dangerous game being formed).
Besides, if a person is going to get a gun and shoot up a anyplace, do you truly think he/she will care about gun laws? Plus, many of my classmates are quite rational and very proficient firearms wielders (most of them from a rural background). On the opposite end, I have come across adults who should not be near a butter knife, much less a gun.

In that case, if it's carried in a way that it can't be taken by anyone but the owner than I am fine with it.
Well, aren't they developing safties that require a fingerprint over them?

[dedbunniez]

I myself am for it, but in a limited manner (complete with background checks, accuracy testing, etc). And places such as fraternities should have limits on them.
Besides, if a person is going to get a gun and shoot up a anyplace, do you truly think he/she will care about gun laws? Plus, many of my classmates are quite rational and very proficient firearms wielders (most of them from a rural background). On the opposite end, I have come across adults who should not be near a butter knife, much less a gun.

Well, aren't they developing safties that require a fingerprint over them?

Regarding that there is the CHL certification classes.

[Calanen]

But was it in America? Do you know the laws that govern CCW Permits? It seems that most people who argue this way have not read the laws.

I worked as a lawyer America, and have passed the california bar. I have a passing familiarity with the law.

[Zoomie]

I worked as a lawyer America, and have passed the california bar. I have a passing familiarity with the law.
Well then you should know that there are stipulations with Concealed Carry, and that Concealed Carry doesn't equal everyone carries.

[Buckeye67]

I was a police officer for five years. During that time, I was a member of the department's SWAT team and Firearms Training Unit.

I'm currently a dispatcher for a University Police Department.

I can't carry on campus. I can't even (legally) leave a pistole in my vehicle when I come onto campus.

Put me down for a "yes" vote, but instead of "students" make it "anyone who obtains legal permission to CCW".

[IraGlacialis]

Regarding that there is the CHL certification classes.
Case in point. And like you stated, there is an age limit of 21 on there.
So some freshmen green from high school and complete with emotional drama (the floor of my residence hall (most are 1st years) is like a frikkin' soap opera and the last thing needed is a gun in the mix) can't simply walk into a store and get a license to carry.

[Evil Scientist]

I'd like to point out that in 6 months of searching, and in the paper I posted to this very thread, I have never seen a newspaper article, magazine article, police report, or even hear-say that this has ever happened.

Not a single case.

Ok I was only playing a -what if- scenario. thnx for the research,that is also what i expected it to be as i noticed that currently ccw are mostly not permitted on site

[Zoomie]

Case in point. And like you stated, there is an age limit of 21 on there.
So some freshmen green from high school and complete with emotional drama (the floor of my residence hall (most are 1st years) is like a frikkin' soap opera and the last thing needed is a gun in the mix) can't simply walk into a store and get a license to carry.
Let alone legally purchase or possess a pistol.

[Buckeye67]

Case in point. And like you stated, there is an age limit of 21 on there.
So some freshmen green from high school and complete with emotional drama (the floor of my residence hall (most are 1st years) is like a frikkin' soap opera and the last thing needed is a gun in the mix) can't simply walk into a store and get a license to carry.

Unless of course they join the military. Then we'll send them to far off exotic lands, give them firearms, grenades and ample opportunity to use them.

Then, when they come back and use their GI Bill to get their education, we tell them they're not mature enough to carry a weapon on campus (or buy beer, but that's another topic entirely). :p

Heck, when I became a police officer I was only 21 years old.

Funny world.

[IraGlacialis]

Then, when they come back and use their GI Bill to get their education, we tell them they're not mature enough to carry a weapon on campus (or buy beer, but that's another topic entirely). :p
Well, shouldn't many be 21 by that time?
And if they weren't I would still not allow them to get one because wouldn't they practically be a civilian by then? Maturity notwithstanding, letting them but not others get a license under age 21 may open a can of worms nobody wants to deal with.

[Buckeye67]

Well, shouldn't many be 21 by that time?
And if they weren't I would still not allow them to get one because wouldn't they practically be a civilian by then? Maturity notwithstanding, letting them but not others get a license under age 21 may open a can of worms nobody wants to deal with.

Yeah, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. After a standard 4 year enlistment they'd be starting school at 22, so there'd not be an issue there.

The beer thing was just a side comment not pertinent to the discussion. :p

[Alfacentori]

I'm goin to Uni at the moment and I for one wouldn't be bothered by some people who were deemed responsible enough carrying there.

As I'm from Oz I'm not familiar with US carry laws, I know it varies from state to state but in a school environment I think with a few restrictions it could be workable.

Example
-An age limit, say 21 if there isn't one already.

-A full background check both medical and legal.

-And passing a proper training course, something similar to the Armed Security agents course I've done here would be ideal, no pass no permit and it should be at the instructors discretion, proving the ability to handle safely, shoot accurately, holster retention, knowledge of the use of force laws etc. (if this doesn't already exist to get a carry permit)


Alfa

[Buckeye67]

I'm goin to Uni at the moment and I for one wouldn't be bothered by some people who were deemed responsible enough carrying there.

As I'm from Oz I'm not familiar with US carry laws, I know it varies from state to state but in a school environment I think with a few restrictions it could be workable.

Example
-An age limit, say 21 if there isn't one already.

-A full background check both medical and legal.

-And passing a proper training course, something similar to the Armed Security agents course I've done here would be ideal, no pass no permit and it should be at the instructors discretion, proving the ability to handle safely, shoot accurately, holster retention, knowledge of the use of force laws etc. (if this doesn't already exist to get a carry permit)


Alfa

That's pretty much how it already goes. The legal age to purchase a handgun in the US (this is federal law and applies to all states) is 21. To get a CCW they do a background check and you have to attend and pass a training course.

[Evil Scientist]

Thanks just got the paper you mentioned will give it a try later on

[Hollis]

It sound like if we mention carrying, the conclusion is everyone carries.

Do a search in your state on how many CCW license their are. Do you really think the number will change much if it is allowed of CCW license holders to carry on campus?


No one is saying we should arm the entire student body.

This is from 4 years ago, How many of those small percentages are students. Your really arguing over nothing.


7.45% South Dakota
6.79% Indiana
6.76% Pennsylvania
5.23% Connecticut
5.12% Washington
4.34% Idaho
4.10% Utah
3.86% Oregon
3.45% Tennessee
3.15% Alabama
2.72% Florida
2.71% Kentucky
2.67% Wyoming
2.41% Maine
2.18% Arkansas
2.11% Virginia
1.94% West Virginia
1.76% Arizona
1.75% Oklahoma
1.70% Montana
1.70% Michigan
1.62% Texas
1.39% South Carolina
1.34% North Dakota
1.00% North Carolina
0.86% Mississippi
0.62% Louisiana
0.58% Nevada
0.45% Minnesota
0.36% Missouri
0.33% Ohio
0.20% Colorado
0.17% New Mexico <-- Slight correction

[Alfacentori]

That's pretty much how it already goes. The legal age to purchase a handgun in the US (this is federal law and applies to all states) is 21. To get a CCW they do a background check and you have to attend and pass a training course.

Ok I guess it comes down then to if the Instructors are strict enough and have the power to refuse a permit due to factors like attitude, maturity etc, I know mine was a little lax, some people passed I would want to work with and the concealed carry part was simply drawing from a concealed holster.

Alfa

[IraGlacialis]

The beer thing was just a side comment not pertinent to the discussion. :p
Who pays attention to that law anyways?
This coming from a school of one of the highest-per-capita (per-capita due to our small size) drinking rates (we nerds sure love our C2H6OH), especially on St. Pat's Day? p-)
Heck I sometimes will take a glass of wine or liqueur when at home (don't really like alcholic beverages and like less the idea of losing control of my bodily functions).

[Evil Scientist]

nice stats, could you also get stats for normal permits per state? nice to have in discusions at work etc

[Zoomie]

nice stats, could you also get stats for normal permits per state? nice to have in discusions at work etc

Well the thing is, not all states require permits.

[IraGlacialis]

This is from 4 years ago, How many of those small percentages are students. Your really arguing over nothing.
Do northeast states not allow carrying period?
Or is info pertaining to that area missing?

[Evil Scientist]

Who pays attention to that law anyways?
This coming from a school of one of the highest-per-capita (per-capita due to our small size) drinking rates (we nerds sure love our C2H6OH), especially on St. Pat's Day? p-)
Heck I sometimes will take a glass of wine or liqueur when at home (don't really like alcholic beverages and like less the idea of losing control of my bodily functions).


better make that C2H5OH!!

[IraGlacialis]

better make that C2H5OH!!
Touche...
I was simply thinking ethane plus hydroxide ion.

[Hollis]

Do northeast states not allow carrying period?
Or is info pertaining to that area missing?

I would have to go to a web site on CCW. Each state is different and more states are allowing easy obtainment of CCW. By easy I mean it was almost impossible to obtain one before.

This site has a map of how CCW is more available in states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry

[Evil Scientist]

Touche...
I was simply thinking ethane plus hydroxide ion.

oh well correcting chemistry is compulsory after obtaining a degree

[JJC]

Not true. Under 18 USC 922(g)(4) it is unlawful for any person who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting interstate commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate of foreign commerce.


Yes, the law says "hey Mr. nut job you can't buy a gun," and that same law just has faith that the nut job will not attempt to purchase a gun. Gun dealers have no access to data bases that contain mental health history of the purchaser, like they do with data bases that contain past criminal records. This was the problem with the VT shooter; he had past history that if was used appropriately could have prevented the ordeal.

[Will938]

I don't think anybody has ever disputed that a it's an inanimate object.

If we apply the same logic then we shouldn't be afraid of nuclear weapons, artillery shells with nerve gas in them, roadside bombs, radioactive materials- these are all inanimate objects.

you can try (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/20/us/20cnd-guns.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1203442294-ehRGe4jYuh3LZypgfS71cg&oref=slogin)

speechless


so psychiatric outpatients should not be scrutinized when it comes to buying a gun?

Allowing students to carry guns on campus sets a precedent. Whats next- high schools? the workplace? meditation retreats?

What's wrong with you? Someone disputed that it was irrational to fear guns, I explained why it is irrational. You picked apart the wrong part of the argument.

Horrible argument. First, because bullets and nuclear blasts are on completely different levels. Second, there has never been a nuclear bomb that just spontaneously went off. So then why should you fear them, they aren't going to harm you unless someone decides that you need to be vaporized. Third, modern firearms also have pretty flawless safety records. Guns don't just go off, so why fear the object?

You can try, but you'll fail. What's to stop me, right now, from buying all the necessary materials to make a large bomb...several of them, and plant them around campus. Or from loading up my FAL with several magazines and doing just like Cho did? From killing my law biding neighbor and using his firearms? Absolutely nothing can stop me. But like the other 99.999% of citizens I understand that this isn't the way to solve my problems.

speechless because either you fail to understand what I said or you're dense enough to actually believe that murder committed with a firearm is any worse than murder committed by any other means.

I already posted up the rules, I agree with them.

High schools, the work place, retreats; why shouldn't I be allowed to carry in these places? Are you under the impression that this means 14 year old high school kids would be packing? High school kids aren't even old enough to be affected, so then only staff, parents, etc would have the option to carry. It's already legal to carry at work unless they say otherwise..which most of them do for insurance reasons.

[Will938]

I'm sorry, yall, but that is a damn good argument.

Fish aren't old enough to qualify for this.

[SBL]

Fish aren't old enough to qualify for this.

Pardon?

...

[Will938]

When students are stressed out from school, coming out of bad relationships, from mixed signals, being drunk, lack of sleep, guns are the last thing you should be carrying.

If I take out the first part this could apply to anyone. The statistics of even young permit holders just don't support these ideas.

[Will938]

Pardon?

...

Freshmen, sorry, it was gone over a few pages ago. I have a habit of responding as I catch up in the thread.

[JJC]

That is why bills like HR 2640 and HR 297 were introduced. HR 2640 btw, has already been passed. These bills will require anyone with mental illnesses that make them dangerous to be reported to the FBI's NICS database where all gun dealers have access. This, in theory, should prevent those with psychopathic disorders from purchasing weapons.

What's the current status on those bills; have they been passed? I can't believe it has passed so easily without ACLU and even the NRA battling civil liberties and privacies arguments.

[deagle]

while alot of ppl think its a good idea, i don't think it would be responsible or more importantly safe if concerned citizens arm themselves. imagine you're a concerned citizen among some others looking for a lunatic gunman, how can you tell the difference in the chaos ?? would ppl have the experience /ability to nail the gunman instead of another concerned and armed citizen ?? even more critically, would SWAT be able to tell the difference (deemed a threat w/weapon in hand ?) you might look like you're looking for a gunman, but to SWAT or another concerned citizen you'll be perceived as looking for victims and be targeted.

a better approach is to limit, restrict, and remove the privilige and right to bear arms to those unresponsible or unable to use them responsibly. and *HEAVILY* punish those who allow such carnage (like the same vendor who sold the VT and NIU shooters).

don't take the right away from those who use it responsibly, but do take it away from those who don't or can't.

[vinny_121_ND]

while alot of ppl think its a good idea, i don't think it would be responsible or more importantly safe if concerned citizens arm themselves. imagine you're a concerned citizen among some others looking for a lunatic gunman, how can you tell the difference in the chaos ?? would ppl have the experience /ability to nail the gunman instead of another concerned and armed citizen ?? even more critically, would SWAT be able to tell the difference (deemed a threat w/weapon in hand ?) you might look like you're looking for a gunman, but to SWAT or another concerned citizen you'll be perceived as looking for victims and be targeted.

a better approach is to limit, restrict, and remove the privilige and right to bear arms to those unresponsible or unable to use them responsibly. and *HEAVILY* punish those who allow such carnage (like the same vendor who sold the VT and NIU shooters).

don't take the right away from those who use it responsibly, but do take it away from those who don't or can't.

I agree. It would be certainly tragic shooting concerned citizens trying to protect the innocent. Being the officer killing this individual will have to live with that for the rest of his or her life. It's a big burden.

[Calanen]

It honestly doesn't appear that you do. And it doesn't appear that those taking an anti-carry stance have any familiarity with the statistical facts concerning CCW holders.



Really? Please correct the legal mistakes that I have made, that is, where I have said that the law was something that it is not, and I will mea culpa. But it appears as if, because you disagree with my viewpoint, that you are calling into question my professional ability, when at least on this aspect - I dont believe I have been called on to say what is or what is not the law concerning firearms, or expressed any view on this basis.

My post was only about the wisdom of any students having guns on campus. I don't think I ever discussed, or debated the terms of the various concealed carry laws, or their restrictions and permissions.

Let me make it quite clear, my own view, is that it is unwise for any students to have firearms, however carried or used, or authorised, on campus. That has nothing to do with what the law is.

That is a policy viewpoint, it was not me saying that CCW laws prohibit or authorise anything in particular. I have set out my reasons for holding this view. Some may disagree and that is fine - but that doesnt mean I am someone who has no idea about what the law is.

[dedbunniez]

I am unable to download the paper. Any other links?

[deagle]

[quote=Cralis;3059910]I would imagine, in that situation, I would concern myself with the guy shooting everyone. Not the people with a gun drawn, pointed to the floor, looking around at the chaos trying to find the guy shooting everyone.



I highly recommend you go back up and read the paper I have now twice posted to this thread. As far as I'm aware (and I did six months of research on this), and according to John Lott's papers, there has never been a case where a CCW holder shot an innocent person (or police) or been shot by police. The police will treat you as a potential threat if your still drawn, but if you drop your weapon they will check you and let you go. Assuming of course you haven't broken any laws by drawing.



First, the laws already limit buyers. There are millions of people on NICS who cannot buy.

Second, the vendors discharged their responsibilities: they checked NICS and did a background check to make sure the buyer was eligible, they kept the waiting period, then they sold the weapons. They did nothing wrong.

PS. The NIU shooter had NO criminal history and was in the process of becoming a part of the criminal justice system. We don't know what he was being treated for, but assuming it isn't some violent-****e mental illness, there was no reason not to sell a gun to him.


what file/paper are you referring to ? the gunmen don't seem to be shooting in teh air, and only shooting when potential targets present themselves, so there will be times of lull while lunatic looking for victim(s), and concerned citizen(s) looking for gunman(s). in a tight perimeter, its easy to say "drop ur weap" and comply (in chaos of shootout, citizen might just not hear or be aware that they have to comply also until its too late). from the eyes of an officer, you see multiple gunmen, and can't differentiate immediately (and seconds count). other students if also seeing armed and concerned citizens, might also report multiple gunmen.....and police have to take this into account. yea its hypothetical, but its a real enough scenario. it would be easier for tactical units to assume anyone with a weap is a threat and drop them. I *DO* think its a good idea for CCW holders to holster weapon, and meet up with a law enforcement personnel. this way, side-by-side, less friendly fire theoretically.

its true lots of ppl are elgible, but the vendors should use a bit more sense. if a kid, barely 20, comes in looking for a gun for self-defense ...lets be real. if they were bullied, they might become aggressor. if they say its for home protection (basically lie with a legit reason) they should provide a bill in their name or something. its easy to say use is for self-defense (as NIU shooter claimed for home protection), and use it for offense. again, its true that they'll be ppl who slip thru the cracks as you say also. govt could also have mandatory safe handling and use for different classes of firearms that must be presented and authenticity verified by vendor prior to delivery of gun. it might be a hassle, but it upholds 2nd amendment while making harder for those who shouldln't be issued weapon.

[Buckeye67]

I'm still not quite sure I'm understanding some folks' views.

One has to be 21 years of age to purchase a handgun, and presumably to get a CCW permit.

Doubtless, there are 21 year olds who have purchased handguns (legally, mind you) and who have applied for, jumped through all of the hoops, and have received their CCW permits.

These same 21 year old CCW permit holders, are (due to a lack of contrary evidence) apparently not being irresponsible with their firearms when they're not on campus. Why then do we assume they become an instant moron with no self control as soon as they set foot on school property?

I was a 21 year old "kid" when I became a police officer, and was given a badge and gun and vested by the state with the power to take peoples' lives if necessary to enforce the law and protect lives. I wasn't any different (from a maturity point of view) from my other 21 year old friends. I carried concealed throughout the time I was employed as a police officer (including on school campuses :p ).

Somehow though, if instead of applying to be a police officer - if I'd applied to go to a university, I'd be an idiot incapable of handling a firearm properly - even if I'd gone through state mandated training in order to be permitted to carry concealed?

Is a 21 year old who doesn't attend university, but takes a "regular" job to irresponsible to carry? My nephew recently turned 21. He works at an architectural firm, is married and has a son (and is still finishing school). Is he too stupid or irresponsible to pack heat? Is he too stupid to pack heat on campus?

I just don't think I can buy into the line of thought that 21 year old university students are too immature to handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon (that they've been approved by the state to carry) on their school campuses.

[Pook2]

I'm lucky to be on probably the safest college campus in terms of security in this country, but I do not trust my protection to anyone other than me. I have no problem with students with CCW's carrying. It is allowed at my school and I have no problem with it. We have only had one ND since I've been here, granted that is one too many, but in the grand scheme, it is fine. The more I hear stories from CG about girls at Clemson being abducted in broad daylight and raped (directly in front of the president's house), and security taking up to an hour to respond to any type of request, the more I tell her to start carrying some sort of protective measure, regardless of their policy.

[Zoomie]

I just don't think I can buy into the line of thought that 21 year old university students are too immature to handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon (that they've been approved by the state to carry) on their school campuses.Yet they're mature enough to join the military and carry M-16s. :cantbeli:

[VMICadetJNA]

I would like to know what an 18 year old carrying a weapon would do in a situation like NIU or Tech, maybe a well placed shot right between the gunman's eyes, right? Lets not forget he got to Level 55 on CoD 4 Multiplayer or "pwned" some fool in Counterstrike. Yeah he's perfectly capable of firing at a gunman in a crowd of people.

[Alfacentori]

Yet they're mature enough to join the military and carry M-16s. :cantbeli:

If you think he means that they are "NOT" I think you have read his post wrong.


Alfa

[dangerclose]

To play devils advocate:

If you are going to use the logic that statistically CCW owners are extremely law abiding and should be able to carry on campuses, then couldn't one also say that statistically your chances of being shot at a school are low and therefore there is very little need to carry on a campus?


Statistically your chances of being in a fatal car accident are low too but you still wear a seatbelt.

[dedbunniez]

I would like to know what an 18 year old carrying a weapon would do in a situation like NIU or Tech, maybe a well placed shot right between the gunman's eyes, right? Lets not forget he got to Level 55 on CoD 4 Multiplayer or "pwned" some fool in Counterstrike. Yeah he's perfectly capable of firing at a gunman in a crowd of people.

We are not talking about 18 year olds. We are talking about those who are legally allowed to conceal carry. Here they are according to Texas laws, it may vary per state requirements.

To qualify for a Texas CHL you must:

1. Be 21 years old. (Members and former members of the armed forces must be 18.)
2. Have a clean criminal history, including military service and recent juvenile records.
3. Not be under a protective order.
4. Not be chemically dependent.
5. Not be of unsound mind.
6. Not be delinquent in paying fines, fees, child support, student loans, etc.
7. Be eligible to purchase a handgun by completing the NICS check.
8. Complete required training.

http://www.txchia.org/getchl.htm

So please stop talking about 18 year olds obtaining a CHL license. This is not legal and is not being talked about.

[Zoomie]

If you think he means that they are "NOT" I think you have read his post wrong.


Alfa
Oh I totally know what he's talking about, I was just adding to his comment.

[phigment]

I would like to know what an 18 year old carrying a weapon would do in a situation like NIU or Tech, maybe a well placed shot right between the gunman's eyes, right? Lets not forget he got to Level 55 on CoD 4 Multiplayer or "pwned" some fool in Counterstrike. Yeah he's perfectly capable of firing at a gunman in a crowd of people.
Depends on the person. I'm 19, and have been shooting for as long as I can remember. My father taught me the right way to shoot, the right ways to stay safe, and everything else I'd need to know at a very young age. If forced I think I could probably shoot someone If my life and the lives of other people depended on it. I might deal with psychological consequences later, but I'd rather do that than die.

Then again, there's a big difference between thinking you can shoot another person and actually doing it. Killing someone is not something I like to think about and not something I ever want to do. That brings up the question of the permit holder actually being willing to kill if necessary.

But I'm not 21 so it doesn't really matter right now. Neither does the question for that matter.

[LaoSexMachine]

I would like to know what an 18 year old carrying a weapon would do in a situation like NIU or Tech, maybe a well placed shot right between the gunman's eyes, right? Lets not forget he got to Level 55 on CoD 4 Multiplayer or "pwned" some fool in Counterstrike. Yeah he's perfectly capable of firing at a gunman in a crowd of people.

asinine.

i was 19 and my first gun was given to me by uncle sam. besides you have to be 21 to get a chl.

[Alfacentori]

Oh I totally know what he's talking about, I was just adding to his comment.

No worries I agree 100% with your comment


Alfa

[KillerBD]

For some reason this thread made this come to mind: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=qkT3VraYNUc
I think the world would be safer if we could just play make-believe in some situations.

[deagle]

Yet they're mature enough to join the military and carry M-16s. :cantbeli:

they're not just old enough...they've been TRAINED to safely and appropriately handle such a firearm. We've all been to college...and you know there are some mature freshmen over 21 yr old seniors. the age doesn't mean as much as other qualifications, and there should be more hurdles to get a gun, and heavy punishment for those who circumvent those measures. just b/c ppl can pass background tests or reach an age limit still doesn't mean they can safely and handle a weapon, so education is important.

[Buckeye67]

Right, which is why before someone can obtain their CCW permit, they're required to attend and pass a state-mandated training course.

The vibe I'm getting from some folks' posts though is that even despite that - they feel that 21 year olds are still not "mature" enough to carry on campus (despite the fact that they would be legally permitted to carry anywhere else).

If 21 year olds aren't mature enough to carry - should we raise the legal age to purchase a handgun?

While we're at it then, can we take voting rights away from 18 year olds?

Don't get me started on driving privilges for 16 year olds either. I don't know who thought that was a good idea, but whoever it was should be strung up.

[mcgn21]

College students should be allowed to defend themselves by any means that they have at their disposal. If they have CCW and want to carry at school, more power to them. My daughter is currently a student in college and I would feel better if she was allowed to carry, but the most I can get her to do is keep pepper spray with her.
The average age of students at her school is 28. The whole excuse of students getting angry and shooting each other kind of sounds like the BS that they tried to use when Florida passed it's shall issue CCW's. Florida was going to turn into the OK Corral with everybody shooting each other. Never happened.

[Calanen]

Fair enough, it was just suspicious that you related your emotional reason for disliking the idea of ccw on campus (that is, the way students act at parties and such) but then go ahead and say "i'm a lawyer, I know the law". That was what I was referring when I said your arguements make it sound like you don't really know the laws in question.


It was the other way around, I was told, by Zoomie, that I didn't know the law, and then said I did. Or at least I have some papers from the government that say I do.

There was never any use by me of my legal qualifications to say that my view about there being no guns in the hands of students on campus was the correct one. I offered my view, then was told I didnt know the law, and just responded, that, I think I have a passing familiarity with it.

As for these things being emotional, I doubt it. Im pro-gun, right wing etc etc. But if i was on the campus security committee, I'd have to vote no for students to be allowed to cary guns, however they were carried, by few or many. Have a campus SWAT team if you like, but you've heard my view on students carrying on campus. Off campus, that's fine.

[Zoomie]

For those of you who are interested, here's Florida's CCW conditions:


Eligibility Requirements

o You must be 21 years of age or older.
o You must be able to demonstrate competency with a firearm.

Possible Reasons for Ineligibility:

o The physical inability to handle a firearm safely.
o A felony conviction (unless civil and firearm rights have been restored by the convicting authority).
o Having adjudication withheld or sentence suspended on a felony or misdemeanor crime of violence unless three years have elapsed since probation or other conditions set by the court have been fulfilled.
o A conviction for a misdemeanor crime of violence in the last three years.
o A conviction for violation of controlled substance laws or multiple arrests for such offenses.
o A record of drug or alcohol abuse.
o Two or more DUI convictions within the previous three years.
o Being committed to a mental institution or adjudged incompetent or mentally defective.
o Failing to provide proof of proficiency with a firearm.
o Having been issued a domestic violence injunction or an injunction against repeat violence that is currently in force.
o Renouncement of U.S. citizenship.
o A dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
o Being a fugitive from justice.

Source (http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/eligible.html)

[oldsoak]

OK, some points all round.
MHO is that while 19 year olds trained by Uncle Sam are perfectly disciplined enough to be trusted with CCW, theres a lot of 21 year olds that are not and just havent registered on the legal radar yet, plus theres a whole new legal tar pit involved when you allow CCW in campus - something will go tragically wrong and the lawsuits will happen. Heres a quick scenario - your a mature student over 21, lets say your weapon falls out of its holster or another bloke who is CCW gets to see it and knows jack about you, whats he supposed to do ? How does he know you arent waiting for an opportunity to kick off ? OK, its a bit simplistic, but blue on blues happen for the damndest reasons at times.
Mebbe some sort of policing is the way to go - let those who are properly trained for this sort of sh*t do the job. No disrespect to the law abiding, but some things are best left to those who have the backing the right sort of decisions.

[Hollis]

OK, some points all round.
MHO is that while 19 year olds trained by Uncle Sam are perfectly disciplined enough to be trusted with CCW, theres a lot of 21 year olds that are not and just havent registered on the legal radar yet, plus theres a whole new legal tar pit involved when you allow CCW in campus - something will go tragically wrong and the lawsuits will happen. Heres a quick scenario - your a mature student over 21, lets say your weapon falls out of its holster or another bloke who is CCW gets to see it and knows jack about you, whats he supposed to do ? How does he know you arent waiting for an opportunity to kick off ? OK, its a bit simplistic, but blue on blues happen for the damndest reasons at times.
Mebbe some sort of policing is the way to go - let those who are properly trained for this sort of sh*t do the job. No disrespect to the law abiding, but some things are best left to those who have the backing the right sort of decisions.


What happens if it is in a Café', a super market or bank?


Also I have known 35 years or much older people who should Never handle a firearm under any circumstance.

This prohibition only effect current CCW holders, I have been carrying firearms for a hell of a long time. I have a CCW.

Keep in mind, in most states open carry is legal. Though some people have been harassed by anti-gun nuts for doing so. CCW, is a better way, no one knows but me.

[D-gin]

Mebbe some sort of policing is the way to go - let those who are properly trained for this sort of sh*t do the job. No disrespect to the law abiding, but some things are best left to those who have the backing the right sort of decisions.


Ok, I've held off posting in this thread until now.


Why do you think most have a CWL? One reason; self defense i.e. because those that we trust to guard us (the police, campus or other wise) are not always there!


BTW: I am a CWL holder and carry a firearm on a daily basis, I'm also under 25.

Age is not as big of a factor as ones maturity and like HOLLiS said, " I have known 35 years or much older people who should Never handle a firearm under any circumstance."

[StukaJr]

OK, some points all round.
MHO is that while 19 year olds trained by Uncle Sam are perfectly disciplined enough to be trusted with CCW, theres a lot of 21 year olds that are not and just havent registered on the legal radar yet, plus theres a whole new legal tar pit involved when you allow CCW in campus - something will go tragically wrong and the lawsuits will happen. Heres a quick scenario - your a mature student over 21, lets say your weapon falls out of its holster or another bloke who is CCW gets to see it and knows jack about you, whats he supposed to do ? How does he know you arent waiting for an opportunity to kick off ? OK, its a bit simplistic, but blue on blues happen for the damndest reasons at times.
Mebbe some sort of policing is the way to go - let those who are properly trained for this sort of sh*t do the job. No disrespect to the law abiding, but some things are best left to those who have the backing the right sort of decisions.

The idea of CCW is not that every person carries, but that the criminal never knows if their target is as easy as it looks - as intended victims could be capable of returning equal amount of force. The Problem is that politicians fall for the promise of "Safety Zones" where carrying firearms is illegal - making these areas a place of gathering for people incapable of defending themselves. School campuses have been made such zones and we are reaping the unfortunate rewards of the social experiment gone wrong - and it was an experiment. You have a generally armed society - check. You allow law abiding citizens to carry weapons - check. You forbid weapons from being carried in select zones - oops, fatality rate sky rockets... This is where "oops" should be a sign that policy put in place was a bad call - nay sayers would rather dig their heels in though, and lay blame on everything else but their bad calls... DC vs Heller is a good example of a much bigger social experiment that netted a quadruple in murder rates in the name of public safety.

I "appreciate" your magic insight of "young people blah blah can't be trusted" - after all, you are weighing a speculation of potential problems that might arise from allowing guns on campus against the actual violent deaths of people made to disarm... Attaining CCW is a complicated enough process and at least it's a monitored one - it's meant to weed out the lack of discipline you claim to fear...

Finally, the age is not the issue - since nobody on campus can carry except for law enforcement... So would you let professors carry? How about TA's? What about graduate students in their 30's?

[Ironsight06]

If someone has a CWL, why aren't they allowed to carry on a college campus? Isn't it exactly the same thing as in every other public space?

[California Joe]

I have no problems with trained, legal age, CCW holders carrying. However, this type of thing does not occur in a vaccum. There are a lot of intangibles which I see as causing a complete clusterf*ck.

-College liability: Insurance issues.

-Does every room come with a gun safe or are the CCW holders required to provide one.

-Calls to campus and local police everytime someone sees a guy carrying on campus because CCW holders do not wear huge f*cking signs indicating they indeed are. Boy who cried wolf...

-Protests on campus, disrupting studies and causing loss of revenue for the school due to enrollment drops. Because lets face it, a lot of people would disagree with this.

-The inevitable stolen gun.

-I think people aren't quite getting that colleges have their own rules, that you agree to, when you enroll, and pay them a sh*tload of money. You disagree, or break those rules they expel you. Legally.

-Lets say and incident happens with an unknown psycho shooter invading campus: A few CCW holders respond in some manner. Worst case scenario...A couple of hostages, bystanders get shot in the ensuing gun fight. Police or SWAT arrive, confusion reigns, screaming coeds are everywhere giving bad eyewitness accounts, they start shooting people with guns that match the general description of the original shooter. The Press goes batsh*t, Sarah Brady celebrates...

[Hollis]

I think what ever can happen on a college campus can happen any where else.

Your at a Mall, someone starts shooting, CCW's holders respond.......... yeah it can go to sh*t too. Yes there are risks.

Also I wonder how many CCW holders already violate the schools and carry on campus. Not a smart to do. But some people will say, "Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6."


CJ, you raised some great points, like "Insurance". A shooting goes South, is the school liable for allowing CCW on campus?

And the questions.

It only takes one incident.......... And Sarah and her ilks have a field day.

[California Joe]

I'm sorry but personally there are about .001% of college kids I'd let carry anything other than their books. Half of them can't remember to wear a condom or brush their f*cking teeth let alone put a trigger lock on their gat.

[Hollis]

NO problems, I understand. I went to one college, 12,000 Students, 1,000 where full time, the rest part time people who worked. Been to others, with something like 45,000 students.

I think with age limitation in the requirements for CCW, it will pretty much isolate the 18 -21 year old crowd.


The older working, graduate students, are the one. Still out of those how many have a CCW now. How many might obtain one. I doubt many if any will get a CCW id it is open to campus carry.

I can be very wrong, my thoughts is that this really pertains to those who carry now.

[D-gin]

I'm sorry but personally there are about .001% of college kids I'd let carry anything other than their books. Half of them can't remember to wear a condom or brush their f*cking teeth let alone put a trigger lock on their gat.

Have to agree with that CJ. Hell, most of the guys I know that are close to my age I wouldn't let handle a loaded airsoft gun much less a real one.


I don't think this is not an issue that will really ever be agreed upon, but that's how most of these debates go.

[California Joe]

I think it's good to debate it. Because maybe something will spark a new idea. Like I said. This stuff has to take place in the real world and in the real world there are a nearly endless set of actions and reactions that take place to every scenario we can come up with.

From perfect: Nut walks onto campus with a gun and is immediately stopped. To death and mayhem.

[IraGlacialis]

Just to point something out - in almost every state that forbids carry on campuses, and in almost every school campuses that forbids carry in their rules - law enforcement is not allowed to carry either. Heck, in some schools not even their own security are allowed to have a weapons locker (let alone carry themselves).
That sounds slightly retarted. My school's officers carry firearms.
Heck my high school and middle school had officers with firearms, even though it was pretty much the only security that was there.

Though thinking about officers, I can see why first and second years should not be given guns. Our floor was being searched by the campus police, and while they were searching, some of us were asking them what being tazed would feel like (even to the point of asking to be tazed) and if they could show us the guns closely :|.

[Will938]

I would like to know what an 18 year old carrying a weapon would do in a situation like NIU or Tech, maybe a well placed shot right between the gunman's eyes, right? Lets not forget he got to Level 55 on CoD 4 Multiplayer or "pwned" some fool in Counterstrike. Yeah he's perfectly capable of firing at a gunman in a crowd of people.

First off, 21, not 18; this has been said over and over.

Second, I hear gunshots and I'm taking care of me first. Then my class; my prerogative is to get us the hell out of dodge. I have no plans to draw and shoot unless we make contact. In that case I know I'm responsible for where my bullets go. They hit the wrong person and I'm going to prison. Anyone who carries knows this, and as was pointed out there is no record of this ever occurring.

Third, he came out from behind onto the stage. Just him and the professor elevated several feet above everyone else. Believe it or not people are perfectly capable of exercising sound judgment, they don't just panic and fire wildly into crowds.

[oldsoak]

The idea of CCW is not that every person carries, but that the criminal never knows if their target is as easy as it looks - as intended victims could be capable of returning equal amount of force. The Problem is that politicians fall for the promise of "Safety Zones" where carrying firearms is illegal - making these areas a place of gathering for people incapable of defending themselves. School campuses have been made such zones and we are reaping the unfortunate rewards of the social experiment gone wrong - and it was an experiment. You have a generally armed society - check. You allow law abiding citizens to carry weapons - check. You forbid weapons from being carried in select zones - oops, fatality rate sky rockets... This is where "oops" should be a sign that policy put in place was a bad call - nay sayers would rather dig their heels in though, and lay blame on everything else but their bad calls... DC vs Heller is a good example of a much bigger social experiment that netted a quadruple in murder rates in the name of public safety.


I "appreciate" your magic insight of "young people blah blah can't be trusted" - after all, you are weighing a speculation of potential problems that might arise from allowing guns on campus against the actual violent deaths of people made to disarm... Attaining CCW is a complicated enough process and at least it's a monitored one - it's meant to weed out the lack of discipline you claim to fear...

Finally, the age is not the issue - since nobody on campus can carry except for law enforcement... So would you let professors carry? How about TA's? What about graduate students in their 30's?

:-)
- I've worked alongside a lot of 18-21 year olds who are perfectly safe with firearms - called soldiers. They knew exactly where the lines were and had a damn good idea of accountability and discipline 'cause its drummed into them, and I've met kids doing a mans job with maturity far beyond their years - which I cant say I come accross very often on campus.
I was in Uni in the UK in the 70's when people were talking of "armed struggle" , collecting for the PIRA and wanting to help spread the revolution in countries the tw*ts could not find a map, ffs.
I'm not denying the right to own, I'm just saying that campuses seem to have sufficient numbers of idiots to make CCW fraught with problems. I dont know what the best all round solution is, but I've got grave reservations on allowing it for students in a place where letting your hair down seems to be the norm. Legal CCW for self protection in the "right" places by someone whose had the right checks carried out on him/her is not a problem with me. However, campuses should be treated like bars/pubs unless you are an LEO or someone of that ilk.
Appreciate that this is mostly academic for places where CCW is over 21 only, but if a few more outbreaks of violence occur, how is one going to respond ? Why should a 20 year old have less chance of defending himself than , say, a 50 year old father of three in a car park ?

[deagle]

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=161637

And for the guy who said he couldn't download it, I just checked it and it works. Go to the upper left corner where it says "download document" and it will take you to a list of a half dozen (or so) servers that you can download the paper from.



This is very common arguement. And an arguement that has never happened. Not a single time in the United States history has a ccw carrier been shot by an officer responding to an incident, nor has ccw carriers shot each other. There are all sorts of factors involved, but it isn't hard to tell if someone is a crazed lunatic or not. To be sure the police will disarm a ccw carrier for their own protection (in most cases), but so far they've never shot one.

And in CCW classes they make sure to tell you that if your in such a situation to be aware because police might mistake you. Most people will err in the side of caution and either not draw, or immediate discard their weapon when the police arrive. And so far it seems to be working. Not saying it could never happen, but that nation-wide the arguement has thus far been very hollow.

I've been in a firefight before (actually two, not counting indirect fire or IEDs). And I've done lots of simulation and training. Even when we wore the same uniform it wasn't that difficult to tell who was against you. (mostly because they are aiming at you)



In some states a 20-year old would be too young to purchase a firearm, rendering your arguement moot there. You have to provide legal identification and be subject to a background check to buy any kind of firearm, even if you've purchased one prior. That is a federal requirement - thus making your "provide a bill" statement pretty insignificant.

Some states require firearms classes for certain classes of firearms that aren't sport firearms, mostly because professional sports require you to take classes to join them. And some states require classes in order to get hunting licenses before you can hunt.

And the NIU shooter was in criminal justice and supposed to be starting work in a prison. Do you think that maybe he might be concerned someday a prisoner could be released that might want to hurt him? Both of my parents are law enforcement and more than once they were confronted by convicts who were released. It is not unreasonable for him to think about home and personal safety in that context.


while its probably true, a ccw carrier hasn't been friendly-fired, its a real scenario, and i think that would be a critical factor that it could happen, and why lost of places won't have it (the shear possiblity of friendly-fire on armed/concerned citizens). in the "fog of war" or chaos of a shootout, the possiblity of mistaken identity to real to ignore. knock on wood that a ccw carrier hasn't been mistakenly shot yet.


i do think the very best thing would be if ccw permit/license holders are put in such a situation, have it ready at the hip/thigh, and be ready to employ it (meaning not in hand, so officers shooting=on-sight of anyone w/gun, not confuse them). and ccw holder's role should be to supplement to officers....like try to control crowds, and team up with an officer. side-by-side with a cop would increase force projection at the same time lowering chance of friendly-fire. this would be a good and effective compromise.

[StukaJr]

However, campuses should be treated like bars/pubs unless you are an LEO or someone of that ilk.

I wish I had the same belief in infallibility of LEO's that you have, but, come on - cops are humans too :) And they do dumb stuff - sometimes as dumb as the stuff warrants are served for... Speaking of clubs, I know an LAPD officer whom insists on sneaking his Glock in his crotch as "bouncers never pat him down there" - and brags about it... And still does.

I'm not sure why person can be trusted with a firearm to defend their life in a grocery store but not on campus. At the same time, if the person is known for some kind of criminal or subversive activity - I don't understand why the different treatment of it being on campus or off? CCW carriers are not as wide spread as one may think and there is plenty of scrutiny in the process, not to mention a number of reasons such licenses can be taken away. There are cases of people bragging about carrying on a public forum and getting away with some kind of disqualifying behavior while carrying - only to be identified and have their license taken away... The asshat behavior you've mentioned would disqualify neo-black panther wannabe in a heartbeat - whether they were doing it on campus or in their mobile home. (given the information traveling to the right people of course).

My point is this - if an individual can maintain their privilege to carry - that should apply anywhere. Especially, when these supposed "safe zones" are becoming favorite areas for psychopaths.

[gaijinsamurai]

I have no problems with trained, legal age, CCW holders carrying. However, this type of thing does not occur in a vaccum. There are a lot of intangibles which I see as causing a complete clusterf*ck.

-College liability: Insurance issues.

-Does every room come with a gun safe or are the CCW holders required to provide one.

-Calls to campus and local police everytime someone sees a guy carrying on campus because CCW holders do not wear huge f*cking signs indicating they indeed are. Boy who cried wolf...

-Protests on campus, disrupting studies and causing loss of revenue for the school due to enrollment drops. Because lets face it, a lot of people would disagree with this.

-The inevitable stolen gun.

-I think people aren't quite getting that colleges have their own rules, that you agree to, when you enroll, and pay them a sh*tload of money. You disagree, or break those rules they expel you. Legally.

-Lets say and incident happens with an unknown psycho shooter invading campus: A few CCW holders respond in some manner. Worst case scenario...A couple of hostages, bystanders get shot in the ensuing gun fight. Police or SWAT arrive, confusion reigns, screaming coeds are everywhere giving bad eyewitness accounts, they start shooting people with guns that match the general description of the original shooter. The Press goes batsh*t, Sarah Brady celebrates...

Good points, CJ.

[Hollis]

It could offer new opportunities,


Dr. M. West asks her intern, "Is that a pistol in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?"

[Calanen]

Right, but in Oregon they are breaking the law. The law specifically states that a ccw permit holder is allowed to carry on college campuses, and allowed to keep an unloaded weapon in his car on primary and secondary school grounds.


That is partially correct for public college campuses, private college campuses can do whatever they want. But it is not so simple. While Oregon law specifically prohibits city and county ordinances from trying to regulate firearms other than the discharge of them - is does not say, that other arms of the state cannot prohibit persons from coming onto their property with firearms, in the guise of them effecting their rights as property owners.

166.170 State preemption. (1) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, the authority to regulate in any matter whatsoever the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly.
(2) Except as expressly authorized by state statute, no county, city or other municipal corporation or district may enact civil or criminal ordinances, including but not limited to zoning ordinances, to regulate, restrict or prohibit the sale, acquisition, transfer, ownership, possession, storage, transportation or use of firearms or any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition. Ordinances that are contrary to this subsection are void. [1995 s.s. c.1 §1]


The question is, who is the property owner of a college campus? Is it the State of Oregon itself, is it a statutory corporation one removed, is it a trust set up, or a regular corporation? Even if it is the state - my reading of the law does not prevent a public college from prohibiting all firearms, as an incidence of it regulating the campus and exercising its right as a property owner.

The relevant Act only says in effect that persons with CCW are permitted to carry weapons on college campuses - that is, not liable to a penalty under the law for possessing a firearm in a public building. It does not say, the college campus must let anyone with a CCW and a gun on its campus, or prohibit colleges from preventing those with firearms from coming onto campus.

[LimaOscarSierraTango]

Interesting.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html

I apologize if it was posted and I missed the link.

[deagle]

[quote=Cralis;3062810]I'm curious how the colleges would be liable?

The mall, grocery store, and pizza shop isn't liable. So why would the college be liable? The college isn't asking us to carry, nor are they giving us any special enforcement abilities or anything for doing so. If they have nothing about it in their policies then they have nothing to do with it period (since the law already covers it, at least here in Oregon).

wouldn't college campuses be liable for "failure to provide safe learning environment" or something though ?? I think that if a college campus does allow CCW holders onto campus armed, regular ppl might demand extensive approval first (annually validation of permit, if holder locked gun in car properly, registration etc...).

i also think even if a fellow student has it holstered on them and the school allowed it, and say someone saw it in the dining hall, they might cause mass hysteria ("he/she's got a gun !" boom, instant panic). They are now stressing more alertness, awareness now, and are encouraged to report suspicious activity. you can't really blame a student (concerned for their safetly and other students) and become overly-anxious. this wouldn't foster a "learning environment" (then again, neither does an armed lunatic causing havoc either).

the added anxiety with CCW holders on campus might be too much possibly.

[Geezah]

My answer is yes.

Once armed, you are no longer viewed as a soft target, and the good thing about CCW is, the bad guys have no idea who is armed and who may be willing and able to take action.

[dedbunniez]

Was just cruising cnn.com and saw this amazing headline.

Utah students hide guns, head to class

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html

[E-2]

yes, number of casualties in the past shootings couldve been cut in two if someone had a gun.

[California Joe]

Private colleges are not "public places". Most colleges aren't regardless of whether they are state schools or not.

[Bia]

Should students be able to conceal carry on campus?
Hell no....never.

[StukaJr]

Looks like carrying on campus works in Israel (even though the article is about how the fact that the tragedy was stopped by a gun carrying student is not reported in the US... wonder why? ) :

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/ccrkba-says-press-purposely-downplays-key-role-of-armed-student,306928.shtml


BELLEVUE, Wash., March 7 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- An armed student at Jerusalem's Mercaz Haray seminary played a crucial role in stopping a gun-wielding terrorist Thursday, but the American press is downplaying his heroism because it proves that armed students can stop campus gunmen, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms said today.

Yitzhak Dadon, 40, was described as "a private citizen who had a gun license and was able to shoot the gunman with his pistol" by reporter Etgar Lefkovitz with the Jerusalem Post. However, many news agencies in the United States are downplaying Dadon's decisive role in the incident.

"Yitzhak Dadon is a hero," said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb, "and he is living proof that armed students have a place on college campuses. Thankfully, his quick action was reported by the international press, including Mr. Lefkovitz, so unlike incidents here in the United States where the press was able to completely ignore the actions of armed students or teachers, the truth about this incident will not be suppressed.

"Mr. Dadon is not going to become a victim of this conspiracy of silence," Gottlieb continued. "Elitist American college administrators, the national press, nor anti-gun politicians can sweep this incident under their rug."

Internationally published reports say Dadon studies at the yeshiva, and had his pistol when the shooting erupted. When the gunman emerged from a library, Dadon reportedly shot him twice in the head. The gunman was subsequently shot by the off-duty soldier.

"Yitzhak Dadon's apparently well-placed bullets interrupted a rampage," Gottlieb said. "What a pity that someone like Mr. Dadon was not in class last April at Virginia Tech. What a tragedy that anti-gun extremism would keep him from attending class at Northern Illinois University. He would never be allowed to teach at Columbine High School, hold a job at Trolley Square in Salt Lake City, or go shopping at Omaha's Westroads Mall.

"America's acquiescence to anti-gun hysteria has led to one tragedy after another," Gottlieb stated. "This disastrous policy has given us nothing but broken hearts and body counts, and it's got to end. The heroism of an armed Israeli seminary student halfway across the world sends a message that we needn't submit to murder in victim disarmament zones. That's why his actions are getting such short shrift from America's press. It's a story they are loathe to report because it affirms a philosophy of self-reliance that they despise."

With more than 650,000 members and supporters nationwide, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (http://www.ccrkba.org/) is one of the nation's premier gun rights organizations. As a non-profit organization, the Citizens Committee is dedicated to preserving firearms freedoms through active lobbying of elected officials and facilitating grass-roots organization of gun rights activists in local communities throughout the United States.
Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

Try to argue how disarming that particular students would have made the situation "safer" - unless more innocent casualties equals safety in some back world looney bin.

[IDF_TANKER]

Looks like carrying on campus works in Israel (even though the article is about how the fact that the tragedy was stopped by a gun carrying student is not reported in the US... wonder why? ) :

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/ccrkba-says-press-purposely-downplays-key-role-of-armed-student,306928.shtml



Try to argue how disarming that particular students would have made the situation "safer" - unless more innocent casualties equals safety in some back world looney bin.
The situation in Israel is a bit different. The necessary condition for a person to get a fire arm permit is the military service, which means that people who carry weapons are usually less likely to be schizophrenic nuts...
Besides to get a weapon permit you also have to work/live in the border areas or territories.

[Wolfmanjack]

A armed Society is a polite society.

Everyone in the world should be able to carry a firearm. Sure a few people might wind up getting killed over it but Crime it self will go down drastically. Just look at Australia's Crime rate sense they banned all firearms.

Removing firearms from honest people only makes them easier targets , Criminals do not follow the law and will ALWAYS be able to get firearms. What part of this equation do some of you people not understand?

Besides you would have to be a absolute moron to think that if gun's were outlawed and they somehow were able to remove every single gun in the world that the criminals wouldn't find something else to use. IE Knives, Swords, Baseball bats. Home made Zip guns.

Making it legal for the public in general to carry a weapon would stop the majority of crimes in the USA and other country's. People are going to go nuts and kill each other, It is a fact of life. There is not a damn thing anyone can do about it. The only thing we can do to minimize the effect of these wacko's is to have everyone armed and soon as the nutjob starts killing people we take him out.

[Geezah]

The situation in Israel is a bit different. The necessary condition for a person to get a fire arm permit is the military service, which means that people who carry weapons are usually less likely to be schizophrenic nuts...
Besides to get a weapon permit you also have to work/live in the border areas or territories.

Hang on a min, the only difference is you guys lives in a war zone.

As far as people going nuts, I seem to remember an Israeli who went on a rampage about 10yrs ago, and I also seem to remember your Israeli PM getting shot.

Now as far as numbers going, the US of A is allot bigger with many many more citizens.

No matter where you go, while schools are soft targets they will still be targeted by bullies.........

[Moledet]

Looks like carrying on campus works in Israel (even though the article is about how the fact that the tragedy was stopped by a gun carrying student is not reported in the US... wonder why? ) :

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/ccrkba-says-press-purposely-downplays-key-role-of-armed-student,306928.shtml

Try to argue how disarming that particular students would have made the situation "safer" - unless more innocent casualties equals safety in some back world looney bin.
I am for conceal carry but the officer killed the terrorist with his rifle, so maybe you should let soldiers go home with their issued weapons?

[StukaJr]

I am for conceal carry but the officer killed the terrorist with his rifle, so maybe you should let soldiers go home with their issued weapons?

Can you refute the quote bellow:


Internationally published reports say Dadon studies at the yeshiva, and had his pistol when the shooting erupted. When the gunman emerged from a library, Dadon reportedly shot him twice in the head. The gunman was subsequently shot by the off-duty soldier.

I can only speculate that assailants with two bullet wounds to the head are less aggressive with no bullet holes to the head - I wasn't stating whom ended up killing the assailant... As for disarming soldiers - I said nothing of that sort, so don't even try...

[QUOTE=IDF_TANKER;3095030]The situation in Israel is a bit different. The necessary condition for a person to get a fire arm permit is the military service, which means that people who carry weapons are usually less likely to be schizophrenic nuts...
Besides to get a weapon permit you also have to work/live in the border areas or territories.

... right... Other than both soldiers and CCW carriers would be disarmed on a majority of US campuses... Soldier or not - that's the point of the article. US campuses are "safe zones", no matter on person's merit's or privileges - citizens with privilege to carry cannot carry on campus...

[bryanleu2002]

Really? Please correct the legal mistakes that I have made, that is, where I have said that the law was something that it is not, and I will mea culpa. But it appears as if, because you disagree with my viewpoint, that you are calling into question my professional ability, when at least on this aspect - I dont believe I have been called on to say what is or what is not the law concerning firearms, or expressed any view on this basis.

My post was only about the wisdom of any students having guns on campus. I don't think I ever discussed, or debated the terms of the various concealed carry laws, or their restrictions and permissions.

Let me make it quite clear, my own view, is that it is unwise for any students to have firearms, however carried or used, or authorised, on campus. That has nothing to do with what the law is.

That is a policy viewpoint, it was not me saying that CCW laws prohibit or authorise anything in particular. I have set out my reasons for holding this view. Some may disagree and that is fine - but that doesnt mean I am someone who has no idea about what the law is.

You sound like a politician , Have you ever considered running for Public office?

"A few Good Armed Men or Women on Campus"

That is what we are talking about .. Why shouldn't people with the necessary background and training be allowed to carry concealed?

Oklahoma is passing such legislation..

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/14/campus.guns.ap/ (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/14/campus.guns.ap/)

OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- People with specialized firearms training, such as military personnel, would be allowed to carry concealed weapons on Oklahoma's college campuses, under a bill that passed the state's House Thursday.


The measure was approved 65-36, despite opponents who said it made no sense following shootings at schools across the country.
It now heads to the state Senate for a vote.


Introduced by Rep. Jason Murphey, R-Guthrie, the law would authorize active-duty military and National Guard and reserve personnel, honorably discharged veterans and others with firearms training certified by the Council on Law Enforcement Education who hold a state concealed weapons license to carry guns on college and university campuses.


The legislation is more narrow than Murphey's original proposal, which would have allowed anyone at least 21 years old with concealed handgun carrying rights to carry weapons on campus. That version was similar to a Utah law.
"This has to be the craziest thing I have ever seen," said Rep. Ray McCarter, D-Marlow, one of several lawmakers who said the measure is opposed by college administrators.



Supporters argued that the measure would make college campuses safer by putting guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens.
Rep. Colby Schwartz, R-Yukon, said someone with a concealed weapon might be the only person in a classroom who can protect himself and others from an attacking gunman.


"When seconds matter the police are just minutes away," said Rep. Rex Duncan, R-Sand Springs.
House members also approved a measure that lowers the age to 18 from 21 of active-duty military, National Guard and reserve personnel as well as veterans who can be licensed to carry a concealed weapon.


Murphey said his bill was a "commonsense step" to expand Oklahoma's concealed weapons law to combat campus violence (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/school_shootings).
"The concealed carry law is about 12 years old. It's worked out very well," Murphey said. He said more than 60,000 Oklahomans are licensed to carry concealed weapons, and there has been no widespread gun violence in the state, which opponents had warned of.


Murphey's bill would require people authorized to carry a concealed handgun to provide written notice to the university or college president before bringing a gun on campus. It would not limit a university's ability to restrict concealed weapons from access-controlled areas where people are subject to security checks.

[budgie]

I think it's a great idea to conceal carry on campus. In fact better yet, why not give a free hangun and 50 bullets to evey kid enrolled in a college or university with their starter packs? Better yet, why conceal? Why not just carry six-shooters on their hips as they saunter around campus? It'd be great - they could set up saloons and poker dens and have daily gunfights at high noon. Yippee kay yay!

[Zoomie]

I think it's a great idea to conceal carry on campus. In fact better yet, why not give a free hangun and 50 bullets to evey kid enrolled in a college or university with their starter packs? Better yet, why conceal? Why not just carry six-shooters on their hips as they saunter around campus? It'd be great - they could set up saloons and poker dens and have daily gunfights at high noon. Yippee kay yay!
Come back when you can post something intelligent. :backhand:

[bryanleu2002]

I think it's a great idea to conceal carry on campus. In fact better yet, why not give a free hangun and 50 bullets to evey kid enrolled in a college or university with their starter packs? Better yet, why conceal? Why not just carry six-shooters on their hips as they saunter around campus? It'd be great - they could set up saloons and poker dens and have daily gunfights at high noon. Yippee kay yay!

your response dumbfounds me.

This issue is not about arming all students on campus,, Its about allowing those how have passed certain criteria, to arm themselves, including , teachers, military, and others how have passed the background check.

which will allow competent individuals to carry on campus..therefore protecting the innocent before the "authorities" arrive.

[Geezah]

your response dumbfounds me.

This issue is not about arming all students on campus,, Its about allowing those how have passed certain criteria, to arm themselves, including , teachers, military, and others how have passed the background check.

which will allow competent individuals to carry on campus..therefore protecting the innocent before the "authorities" arrive.

There's no point in trying to reason with him using logic, after all he would prefer more people died due to bullies picking on soft targets, then it would give him a reason to scream, ban all firearms!!!

After all, the firearm is the root of all evil and turns rational thinking law abiding citizens into thugs.

[Bia]

your response dumbfounds me.

This issue is not about arming all students on campus,, Its about allowing those how have passed certain criteria, to arm themselves, including , teachers, military, and others how have passed the background check.

which will allow competent individuals to carry on campus..therefore protecting the innocent before the "authorities" arrive.


The odds of some retard attacking a campus are MANY times less than the odds of dozens of guns in thousands of schools having the possibility of being misused and killing "innocents"


HUGE diff.... the numbers make this plan FAIL before it could start.


period.

[Calanen]

You sound like a politician , Have you ever considered running for Public office?


Slow response there bryan.

Public office - don't know about that. I think the game is too difficult.

[joe mama]

How could someone who has a CCW permit possibly obey the law while on a school campus?

It's unpossible!

Of course, they can handle carrying and obeying the law at the supermarket...at the mall...while driving their car...while walking in the woods...while walking down the street...and everywhere else they can legally carry...that's obvious*. But once they set foot on a school campus? Obey the law? Anyone who thinks they can is obviously out of their fcuking mind.

Of course you realize that I don't agree with allowing people who hold a valid CCW permit to carry on campus if they choose to when I say that I support that, what I really mean is that ALL students, of ALL ages, MUST be armed at all times. With flame throwers at a minimum. Right? because that's CLEARLY the same thing as allowing PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE A CCW PERMIT TO CARRY.

*If you can show me statistics of the vast numbers of crimes being committed by people with CCW permits, please do so. I'm pretty sure you can't, because if you could, the anti gun organizations and politicians could, and they would be screeching about it from the rooftops - unless they'd choose to ignore facts that might hugely help their cause. Yeah, that's likely.

[bryanleu2002]

How could someone who has a CCW permit possibly obey the law while on a school campus?

It's unpossible!

Of course, they can handle carrying and obeying the law at the supermarket...at the mall...while driving their car...while walking in the woods...while walking down the street...and everywhere else they can legally carry...that's obvious*. But once they set foot on a school campus? Obey the law? Anyone who thinks they can is obviously out of their fcuking mind.

Of course you realize that I don't agree with allowing people who hold a valid CCW permit to carry on campus if they choose to when I say that I support that, what I really mean is that ALL students, of ALL ages, MUST be armed at all times. With flame throwers at a minimum. Right? because that's CLEARLY the same thing as allowing PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE A CCW PERMIT TO CARRY.

*If you can show me statistics of the vast numbers of crimes being committed by people with CCW permits, please do so. I'm pretty sure you can't, because if you could, the anti gun organizations and politicians could, and they would be screeching about it from the rooftops - unless they'd choose to ignore facts that might hugely help their cause. Yeah, that's likely.

Argument: "Guns on campus would lead to an escalation in violent crime.

" Answer: "Since the fall semester of 2006, state law in Utah has allowed licensed individuals to carry concealed handguns on the campuses of all public colleges. Also, concealed carry has been allowed for several years at both Colorado State University (Fort Collins, CO) and Blue Ridge Community College (Weyers Cave, VA). This has yet to result in a single act of violence at any of these schools. Numerous studies*, including studies by University of Maryland senior research scientist John Lott, University of Georgia professor David Mustard, engineering statistician William Sturdevant, and various state agencies, show that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to be arrested for violent crimes."

Read more-

http://www.concealedcampus.org/arguments.htm

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Ironically, Australia and the United Kingdoms are currently demonstrating that if you disarm your population there is a sharp increase in the amount of robberies and violent crimes. The big irony here is that through-out the middle ages Britain armed their peasants with the "gun" of the time - the long bow - and had significantly less civil unrest and crime then other countries during the time period!



What the hell are you talking about?

Yes the instances of violent assaults are up in Australia. But at the same time we have seen in the past 10 years less spending on community services, stricter unemployment benefit conditions, chronic housing shortage and huge increases in cost of living. We are also having major problems with binge drinking at the moment and all this only serves to increase violent criminal behavior and instances of robbery.

But the fact remains in Australia the chances of fallen victim to criminal behavior is relatively small compared to America. My sister lives in a town with a population of 20k. There is not even a police station there. Some towns of this size in the states can have 100 LEO and a SWAT team!

Obviously there is something wrong with the American approach to fighting crime.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. CCW is at best a bandaid solution to solving crime. The only true and effective method of fighting crime is looking at the underlying causes of why the crimes are committed in the first place. If a person is struggling to put a roof over his head, feed a family irrespective of CCW the chances are they may in fact resort to criminal behaviour to improve their situation.

Have a softer approach to drugs. Instead of throwing addicts in gaol send them to rehabilitation minus a criminal record. Addiction is a disease not a crime approach is whats needed. Think about it. Bloke spends 2 years in gaol for drug possession because he is an addict and happens to have some on his body. When he is released his has a record. Who would hire such a person? Result he's left unemployed, probably will return to drugs as an escape and the cycle goes on. How about send him to rehab for 6 months where they can come clean in a positive environment, possibly learn life skills that will help getting a job when they come out and with no record there is high probability that they will get a job and get their life back on track.


AS for CCW on campus. I was a staff member at a university that has around 20,000 student, 3,500 staff members for over 4 years. There is no ****ing way that CCW or any guns should be allowed on campus. Students are ****ing idiots at the best of times, let alone the bars/pubs/clubs on campuses, drunk students and staff on campus, drug use all these things happen. Academic staff are not much better then students on this either. Even campus police IMO should not be armed.

[bryanleu2002]

Well replied Cralis!

[Calanen]

Ironically, Australia and the United Kingdoms are currently demonstrating that if you disarm your population there is a sharp increase in the amount of robberies and violent crimes.


No change really. Decline in Dad going troppo and killing mum and the kids with guns, as there are less guns. But still plenty of street gun crime. It has not increased or gone down..stayed steady.

Im all for people having guns at home. But I'm not big on students (who are morons) having guns on campus.

[Buckeye67]

Mindi, the difference in crime rates between the US and Oz has nothing to do with the presence of firearms or different methods of policing.

It has everything to do with Australia having less than 1/10th the population of the US and the fact that over 90% of the 21 million Australians are from the same ethnic group. Australia has never had the crime problems the US had, even before firearms ownership was restricted.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

But how can you account for the difference in Singleton which has a pop of 20k and a Army Base at that and not have a police station and the equivalent US town which has a ****load of police?

Where talking rural towns here.

Onto some hard facts and after spending close to an hour on this

The closest US state in terms of population and GDP is Massachusetts. So I'll compare the two.

It's crime statistics are based on 2005 stats(taken from the FBI's website) (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_04.html)
and for NSW it's 2006 from here
(http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/bocsar/ll_bocsar.nsf/vwFiles/RCS06.pdf/$file/RCS06.pdf)
Murder 171 for MA and 90 for NSW or 2.7 and 1.3 per 100k

Rape 1732 for MA and 5313 for NSW or 28.0 and 78.4 For NSW this is the TOTAL number of ****** offences. the FBI only states "Forcible Rape" where in NSW all ****** crimes are listed for the total.

Vehicle theft 18880 for MA and 28304 for NSW or 295.1 and 417.8

Assault is complicated so this may include different stats but it's worth a look.

Aggravated assault for MA 19715 or 308.1

Violent Crime 29237 for MA or 456.9

NSW

Assault Domestic Violence Related 26613 or 392.9

Assault non Domestic Violence Related 44760 or 660.7

By the looks of it it does appear that the likely hood of being killed in MA compared to NSW is much higher however the chance of copping a bashing is much higher in NSW.

Problem I can see in trying to compare the two states is that in NSW we have a single police force, and a state wide health system as opposed to the multiple LEO in US states. It's a difficult thing to really look into properly since reporting methods and classifications are different.

So taking all this into consideration plus Australia being a "Nanny State" it's pretty close.

It may well be that because we only hear about LA, NY, Gangland and such the US appears to be more violent. There is also the Foxnews factor in that our reporting standards are less dramatic, there is no news chopper with a "breaking news" about a car chase and such. We don't have that.

Anyway it's opened my eyes a lot researching all this. Not enough to change my opinion because the numbers are recorded differently obviously and some states crime levels are sky high compared to MA and NSW IE California.

It's obvious that parts of the US are about the same if not safe/less criminal activity yet others put everything out of whack.

[Buckeye67]

Melinda,

Smaller population, ethnically homogenous countries typically have lower crime rates than extremely large, ethinically diverse populations.

Trying to compare the two and draw some sort of correlation between crime rates is a complete boondoggle. It simply. Does. Not. Work.

Not only that, but it really isn't particularly pertinent to the discussion of whether or not law-abiding 21+ year old students should be allowed (after jumping through all of the appropriate governmental hoops) to use their state-approved CCW permits to protect themselves on their college campuses.

As I believe I mentioned previously in this very thread, if they're certified by the state to carry, and they're perfectly capable of carrying a concealed weapon without any issues off campus - then I fail to see how the act of simply stepping onto the geographical boundaries of their school will somehow suddenly render them mentally incompetent to carry their state-certified CCW weapon.

But seriously, I think we've been around the block enough with "well it works in XXX country, so ****in' ay, it'll work in YYY country!" that we should all realize by now that it's retarded.

That goes both ways.

[joe mama]

No change really. Decline in Dad going troppo and killing mum and the kids with guns, as there are less guns. But still plenty of street gun crime. It has not increased or gone down..stayed steady.

Im all for people having guns at home. But I'm not big on students (who are morons) having guns on campus.

Cal, sorry if i missed it if you'd already posted, but since you're cool with guns at home, how do you feel about people being allowed to CCW? I'm talking about CCW in general, for law abiding adults, not students/minors/schools/etc at this point.

[joe mama]

...I've said it before and I'll say it again. CCW is at best a bandaid solution to solving crime. The only true and effective method of fighting crime is looking at the underlying causes of why the crimes are committed in the first place. If a person is struggling to put a roof over his head, feed a family irrespective of CCW the chances are they may in fact resort to criminal behaviour to improve their situation.
...

Funny, I've yet to hear anyone say CCW is the "true and effective" methoed for fighting crime except for people who are opposed to CCW and argue against it by saying it's not the solution when the people for it are NOT saying it is the solution.

Also, you seem to live in a world where people only turn to crime because they're poor or out of work or whatever. Maybe that's how it is in the wonderful world of Oz, but I f'ing doubt it, and it sure isn't how it is here. There are plenty of people who are criminals because they're f'ing animals and they don't want to play by YOUR rules and work hard and earn a decent living even if they could. That may not fit well into the politically correct college classroom/textbook discussion of crime, but if you think it's not true you're living in fantasy land.

[joe mama]

Argument:[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] "Guns on campus would lead to an escalation in violent crime.


Did you think I was serious about campus CCW being a bad idea?

[joe mama]

The only real anti-crime claim that CCW makes is that it provides a small deterrent factor. And this is true. There have been many examples of criminals crossing state lines to make household attacks because they ran into too many armed citizens in their own state.

In addition there are several relatively famous examples of cities adopting right-to-carry laws, and burglaries, home invasions, muggings, and the like all go down because criminals are more afraid that a citizen will have a weapon.

However, all this really means is that when the population is allowed and takes the responsibility for their own protection - criminals sometimes have a harder time committing crime.

And then you have John Lott's study into how often CCW or off-duty police carry has interrupted a mass shooter...

As for the criminals, we do have both categories. We do have some criminals who steal because they need food or something. However, that number is VERY small because our welfare systems are so inefficient that they will give anyone just about anything. It is far easier to steal from welfare then to steal from a store.

Many criminals in the United States are criminals because they choose to be. The drug-user issue aside (there is much debate on that one as to whether they "choose" to be, depending if you want to blame society or personal choice) of course. The majority of the rest of criminals are such because they lack self-control to do the right thing.

Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement.

[Bongopete]

The unfortunate truth is, it doesnt matter whether students should or should not be allowed to carry weapons.
Those individuals who intend on carrying out an action against students or teachers, or are conducting illegal acts, arent going to worry about any law to begin with.

[hank]

Having bryanleu200 back is going to be fun. Know why? Because his posts are value-added. You don't just get his original thinking or ideas. You get the original-thinking and ideas of literally hundreds of mindless conservatives, packaged up all neat and tidy in basically unreadable posts. Kind of like Walford with illicit drugs. Good stuff.

hank

[bryanleu2002]

Having bryanleu200 back is going to be fun. Know why? Because his posts are value-added. You don't just get his original thinking or ideas. You get the original-thinking and ideas of literally hundreds of mindless conservatives, packaged up all neat and tidy in basically unreadable posts. Kind of like Walford with illicit drugs. Good stuff.

hank


Thanks Hank , I love you too..

[hank]

Thanks Hank , I love you too..

Bryan, I do love you. Check my posts. I actually said I missed you a few times during your hiatus. Rock on. Even if I disagree I value your input. And your drug use.

hank

[Calanen]

Also, you seem to live in a world where people only turn to crime because they're poor or out of work or whatever. Maybe that's how it is in the wonderful world of Oz, but I f'ing doubt it, and it sure isn't how it is here. There are plenty of people who are criminals because they're f'ing animals and they don't want to play by YOUR rules and work hard and earn a decent living even if they could. That may not fit well into the politically correct college classroom/textbook discussion of crime, but if you think it's not true you're living in fantasy land


Yeah Min is in dreamland on that score. Parts of the western suburbs are heavily populated by people driving a Mercedes with 'no visible means of support.' One of the secretaries at work from a bad part of town, said its quite common for young men to introduce himself as a 'dealer' at parties, and that was the way to have 'made it' out there.

[bryanleu2002]

Did you think I was serious about campus CCW being a bad idea?

I did at first. and after i read your response more carefully i saw how feciscious you were being..

caught me off guard..

[bryanleu2002]

No change really. Decline in Dad going troppo and killing mum and the kids with guns, as there are less guns. But still plenty of street gun crime. It has not increased or gone down..stayed steady.

Im all for people having guns at home. But I'm not big on students (who are morons) having guns on campus.

I agree, not everyone on campus should be able to carrying a gun on campus. that is insane.

"A few good men and women", that is what i am talking about. A few good competent individuals who have passed a back ground check, who are not on antipsychotic medication, Have not been in a mental institution in the past. and have had firearms training course of somesort. Ones who apply and pass the necessary requriements to carry concealed..

what those requirements are to be, should be up to the state.

Another huddle that would come up is the fact that some students from High school do attend or enter grounds on College campus.

I dont know the legal issue with that since students are leaving a public( tax payed) school to A.... lets say community college..

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Funny, I've yet to hear anyone say CCW is the "true and effective" methoed for fighting crime except for people who are opposed to CCW and argue against it by saying it's not the solution when the people for it are NOT saying it is the solution.

Also, you seem to live in a world where people only turn to crime because they're poor or out of work or whatever. Maybe that's how it is in the wonderful world of Oz, but I f'ing doubt it, and it sure isn't how it is here. There are plenty of people who are criminals because they're f'ing animals and they don't want to play by YOUR rules and work hard and earn a decent living even if they could. That may not fit well into the politically correct college classroom/textbook discussion of crime, but if you think it's not true you're living in fantasy land.

It is a common FACT that most violent crime, robberies and vehicle theft is undertaken by people in from a low socio-economic background and for some form of financial gain.

Until you come out with a decent and well educated argument about criminal behavior then shut the ****ing hell up. You do come up with some good arguments Joe Mama but you are also ****ing retarded.

In your ideal little world everyone has the same chance in life. Technically and by law that may be the case. But I know full ****ing well that is not the way the real world ****ing works.

I grew up in and still live in Australia's poorest, most crime riddled suburb and I have seen smart intelligent people turn to crime because they grew up in such a situation. I myself have been knocked back for work because of where I grew up and what school I went to irrespective of my qualifications.

So before you start ****ing coming out with your ****ing holier then though attitude shut the ****ing hell up.

[Calanen]

In your ideal little world everyone has the same chance in life. Technically and by law that may be the case. But I know full ****ing well that is not the way the real world ****ing works.


There are probably not too many people from the wealthy areas who turn to dealing drugs - but I think there is a gap between people who do it for pure need (which would not be many) and people who do it for greed, whatever socio economic class.

In Australia, you can live pretty well as a tradie - which isnt beyond most people. But being a dealer is a lot more glamorous.

And Min - Im sure we could trade stories about how life was real bad for both of us, and pretty much I can win hands down in the pity party stakes. But I think Joe Mama is right. I've dealt with plenty of people who come from run of the mill working class families and have decided to be saturday night gangsters.

But Min is also right - no one sets out to be poor.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I'm not finished yet.

1. Your father is a gangbanger where are you going to end up?

2. Your parents are drug addicts?

3. Your parents are long term unemployed?

4. You suffer mental illness that prevents you from working?

5. You live in a poverty stricken suburb/town?

6. You live in a crime infested town?

7. You are part of a ethnic minority?

8. The only school you could attend is underfunded because of "All of the above"?

9. There is a major lack of spending in the mental health sector.

10. There is a major lack of spending in drug rehabilitation programs?

These 10 reasons make up for 99% of reasons why crime occurs. The other 1% is because of rich ****ing white kids who think they are above the ****ing law.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

There are probably not too many people from the wealthy areas who turn to dealing drugs - but I think there is a gap between people who do it for pure need (which would not be many) and people who do it for greed, whatever socio economic class.

In Australia, you can live pretty well as a tradie - which isnt beyond most people. But being a dealer is a lot more glamorous.

And Min - Im sure we could trade stories about how life was real bad for both of us, and pretty much I can win hands down in the pity party stakes. But I think Joe Mama is right. I've dealt with plenty of people who come from run of the mill working class families and have decided to be saturday night gangsters.

But Min is also right - no one sets out to be poor.

Man it just drives me nuts you know. It's the blue collar class that are doing it real hard. My old man was only an iron worker (non trade) and on his income there is no way in the ****ing world that single people can earn a living. Not everyone has the ability to earn big bucks.

Arguing with this ****wit is like flogging a dead horse anyway.

[Calanen]

These 10 reasons make up for 99% of reasons why crime occurs. The other 1% is because of rich ****ing white kids who think they are above the ****ing law.


I agree with all of that. And yet, in terms of balance, mostly, Australia is about as good as you are going to get in a democracy. You are talking fine tuning only. Most of our problems are infrastructure related right now.

I know the economic system is not fair - but - its the fairest unfair system we are likely to have.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Cralis I agree that personal choice is the major factor. But put yourself in the shoes of the type of people that I mention. What type of choice do they have when it's "If I steal this car, sell it for x amount, it pays the rent for a few weeks and gives me a high" or I wont steal this, I'll go on the streets, smoke more dope as an escape and only going to make the situation worse in the long wrong"

Not much of a choice is it.

In terms of my own beliefs. I'm a fair days pay for a fair days work. I am pro union to the point that unions should be compulsory and I am a firm believer of pro-action crime fighting as opposed to reactionary. I am also for rehabilitation as opposed to punishment.

As much as we think that the poor and working class have it better now then ever before at the end of the day it is still 90% of the population that are getting ****ed over by government, by the rich and by the business sector.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I'm not saying this because I live in a ****ed up situation either. Yeah I done it hard as a kid. But I took the chance to better myself, get a trade qualification, additional vocational courses to work in finance and as a secretary, I can also work in construction and as a dock worker. Matter of fact I'm in the process of starting my own business.

If I wanted to the easy route for me would be to go back to my trade and earn 100k a year in the mines. But for me money is not the motivating factor. I like to be intellectually challenged. Hence trying to get a photography business up and running.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

It's like all of these school/university shootings. Yeah the guys who have done this did make the decision to carry out such an atrocity.

But when they start investigating the people who carry out such attacks a common thing arises. In some fashion they have been let down by the system and they reach a point where the only real decision left for them to make is to carry out an act that gets noticed.

You want to prevent such things happening. Is CCW on campus the answer? Of course it's not.

What we need to be doing is providing more funding towards mental health, removing the stigma from people suffering mental health issues and looking into providing proper programs that people can turn to.

Even in todays society such people that took part in Columbine and many other mass shootings if they try to seek help they are generally turned away because of a lack of support, funding and programs that such people need. that only makes the situation worse and in the minds of such people they feel society has ostracized them and over time they reach a point where going berserk is the only way to be noticed.

Society today is more prosperous, living standards are at an all time high yet living in this society has become extremely hard for many people. Societies expectations are that hard now many people are left with no alternative. (in their minds atleast)

The pressure on young people is intense. I'm actually quite suprised that the rate of mass shootings ect is not higher then what it is.

*I'll pm you why I get uptight man

[joe mama]

It is a common FACT that most violent crime, robberies and vehicle theft is undertaken by people in from a low socio-economic background and for some form of financial gain.

Until you come out with a decent and well educated argument about criminal behavior then shut the ****ing hell up. You do come up with some good arguments Joe Mama but you are also ****ing retarded.

In your ideal little world everyone has the same chance in life. Technically and by law that may be the case. But I know full ****ing well that is not the way the real world ****ing works.

I grew up in and still live in Australia's poorest, most crime riddled suburb and I have seen smart intelligent people turn to crime because they grew up in such a situation. I myself have been knocked back for work because of where I grew up and what school I went to irrespective of my qualifications.

So before you start ****ing coming out with your ****ing holier then though attitude shut the ****ing hell up.

LOL. Want to know where my indecent and uneducated, according to you, since I'm to shut up until have a "decent and educated" argument, argument about criminal behavior comes from, mr expert? It's called the real world. My father was a cop in a big city for 23 years. My uncle was a cop in the same city for 30 years. My cousin was a state cop for 20 years. A former coworkers brother is an FBI agent. A different former coworkers friend is a DEA agent. An cousin of mine started out as a car theif and moved up to drug dealer (rather successfuly, i might add, like a new england version of miami vice (it was the 80s) unti lhe was killed in a car accident being chased by former partners). A half uncle of mine was a pill popping street fighting (literally underground illegal as hell fighting) arsonist maniac. Another cousin was a drug dealer, and might still be, although it's on the inside as he's serving 25 to life for murder.
I've talked to all these people, and friends of theirs, many times. And it's been clear, that while their are plenty of people who turn to crime because they know nothing else (one of your scenarios, parents are criminals, etc), and there are people who have mental problems, there are also plenty who come from good, hardworking, law abiding families, and still choose, simply choose, to not go to work every day. They weren't let down by the education system/government/republicans/democrats/anyone else. They simply made a personal choice at some point to say f u to the law.
My problem with the politically correct/college/classroom/textbook/liberal/socialist/etc/etc arguments about causes of crime is that they explain the extreme vast majority of crime away as not being the criminals fault (by fault I mean choice, really).

Or, to put it another way: despite growing up, according to you, in Oz's poorest most crime ridden suburb, you're not a criminal, right? Why's that? If you live there, your environment/"the government"/the rich/etc has been trying to force you to turn to crime too. And yet, you didn't. You have a trade, welding or metalwork of some kind? i forget the details, i just know i remember something that sounded like hard work that took training. And you're trying to start a photography business? (good luck by the way, seriously) So there's another skill you had to put effort into learning. Wait...what's this? A person from the environment that breeds criminals has CHOSEN to not be one? Has worked hard and improved themselves and is pushing to succeed without breaking the law? That's unpossible!

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

when I started high school there was about 150 students in my year. 6 years later we had around 40 taking the HSC (similar to the SAT) Out of that 40 AFAIK only about 10 or so went on to university, about 5 of us went and done apprenticeships the rest all no hopers, criminals, druggos, teen pregnancy types.

Down here with the plebs it's a real struggle despite the oppurtunities that are now presented and more often then not living off welfare, turning to crime is the only way they know how to live and or easiest route.

[joe mama]

when I started high school there was about 150 students in my year. 6 years later we had around 40 taking the HSC (similar to the SAT) Out of that 40 AFAIK only about 10 or so went on to university, about 5 of us went and done apprenticeships the rest all no hopers, criminals, druggos, teen pregnancy types.

Down here with the plebs it's a real struggle despite the oppurtunities that are now presented and more often then not living off welfare, turning to crime is the only way they know how to live and or easiest route.

The key is you, and others, despite being in the exact situation you insist forces most people to choose crime, chose NOT to be criminals. And unless you're going to tell me that most poor people are criminals, then most poor people choose, like you did, not to be criminals.

All I'm saying is when people rant and screech about how crime happens because people are poor or there's no jobs or the government doesn't support this group or that group and on and on, I never see listed as one of their reasons for crime that "some people simply choose to be criminals". God forbid we expect any of them, even a few, to take some personal responsibility. It's always somebody else's fault.

[Hot Lips]

After all, the firearm is the root of all evil and turns rational thinking law abiding citizens into thugs.

Stop Geezah. Now you're making me hot. I knew you'd come around sooner or later. Welcome to the sunny side... where we view life through rose colored glasses and frolic with the birdies and butterflies. Lay down your firearms and join us. ;)