Greek embassy in Fyrom damaged, under siege [Archive]

phoebus

02-19-2008, 01:14 PM

they don't agree with name New Macedonia. Fyrom police is on sight but can't restrain them

I don't agree too, by the way.

Maybe in the end of the day we need them to be stuborn and pseudo-nationalistic, this can only help us when things become more complex up there. For the time being and if the compromise is rejected they're getting vetoed most certainly in both NATO and EU. Which is most constructive for everyone I might add. More Bulgarian passports to be issued. p-)

Ichabod

02-19-2008, 01:16 PM

I don't agree too, by the way.

Maybe in the end of the day we need them to be stuborn and pseudo-nationalistic, this can only help us when things become more complex up there. For the time being and if the compromise is rejected they're getting vetoed most certainly in both NATO and EU. Which is most constructive for everyone I might add. More Bulgarian passports to be issued. p-)

I am also against the name New Macedonia.
What is your stance on this issue?What do you want the Macedonians to do?

Peris

02-19-2008, 01:17 PM

I don't agree too, by the way.
. p-)

there is a solution for the name thats serves both sides: NOTMACEDONIA:)

Ichabod

02-19-2008, 01:18 PM

there is a solution for the name thats serves both sides: NOTMACEDONIA:)

Well what name should they use then?

Peris

02-19-2008, 01:19 PM

Well what name should they use then?

I told you, NotMacedonia:)

Vorian

02-19-2008, 01:28 PM

Well what name should they use then?

I would have no problem for them using a name like Northern Macedonia if they didn't exhibit aggressive behavior. Only a minute ago, I watched protesters in TV waving signs with Greek lands and calling them their own. I know their military is a joke and can't harm us in any way, but leaving them like this only invites trouble.

Amateur

02-19-2008, 01:32 PM

Well what name should they use then?

Vardarska or Slavomacedonia come to my mind.
"Vardarska" is the geographical name of the area (coming form the Vardar river running through it) and has been used as an official name in the past (you can have a look here (http://http//www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2847867&highlight=Slavomacedonia#post2847867))
And although many Greeks would protest to any use of the word "Macedonia" by the Skopjans as ursurping greek history, I would also accept "Slavomacedonia", because it is a fair compromise: they are in fact, in a geographical sense, Macedonians, since they live in a part of the geographical area of Macedonia (the other parts being greek and bulgarian) - but they are not ethnically Macedonians nor descendants of ancient Macedonians since they descend from slavic tribes that arrived much later in the region. That historical fact would be adequately described by the "Slavo-" additive, countering any nationalistic propaganda or falsification of history.

Vorian

02-19-2008, 01:34 PM

^ Link doesn't work

phoebus

02-19-2008, 01:35 PM

I am also against the name New Macedonia.
What is your stance on this issue?What do you want the Macedonians to do?

The regime in FYROM has followed and continued a very dangerous policy towards their citizens, of preaching something that they are simply not and that is Macedonian.

Look at their ethnological map, you have around 40% Albanians, significant numbers of Roma and Helleno-Vlachs, some Hellenes, Turks, Serbs, Bulgarians and lastly those bulgarian-speaking Slavomacedonians. The later (around half of the population) seem to promote and project their tremendously huge cultural dilemma against the entire country.

On the mean time 2 million Macedonians, proud members of the Hellenic Nation, are essentially watching as their culture and history is being hijacked by a confused lot of Slavs, supported directly by the US State Department but also fully recognised by Russia.

So the answer to your question is not what FYROM does, but more likely what the real Macedonians and the rest of Hellenes actually do. For the moment our goverment is performing at the worst possible manner on the issue if you ask me. "Slavomacedonia" could be a solution as long as the country is reshaped and the Albanians secede once and for all. Once this is done the Slavs can continue living in their dream, but this time much more weakened and dependent on us. The problem with that is that we currently don't want a Greater Albania, so they might as well consider themselves lucky.

So all in all, it suits us better to keep the situation on standby and them out of EU and NATO.

PS: Hellas has also to think about the big Hellenic minority in the Pelagonia region in FYROM, not even acknowledged by the local regime.

Vorian

02-19-2008, 02:04 PM

Is it me, or could Nimitz find another time?

I mean, we have Serbians rioting in Kosovo and now Skopians attacking embassies. Spread out the problems will ya?

chris450

02-19-2008, 02:09 PM

thats what i love about the Balkans! you never get bored :-D

LHM

02-19-2008, 02:14 PM

What's wrong with them? Don't they have enough problems already?

Ordie

02-19-2008, 02:19 PM

thats what i love about the Balkans! you never get bored :-D

Carrying all that historical baggage must be exhausting to live in the Balkans.

phoebus

02-19-2008, 02:24 PM

Carrying all that historical baggage must be exhausting to live in the Balkans.

It surely is, and what is needed mostly is money and proper education, not new borders. Apparently local stuborness leads to the later. At least we in Hellas have an excusee for a big Military, which is something... we can brag like Stalin about our armoured divisions. lol

LHM

02-19-2008, 02:25 PM

It surely is, and what is needed mostly is money and proper education, not new borders. Apparently local stuborness leads to the later.
Stuborness? Necessity would be a better word.

phoebus

02-19-2008, 02:32 PM

Stuborness? Necessity would be a better word.

If there were no foreign intervention the Balkans I'd agree with you. But it seems we're like the locals of the Ypres battleground, witnessing all sorts of foreign powers experimenting on our heads.

Ichabod

02-19-2008, 02:34 PM

It surely is, and what is needed mostly is money and proper education, not new borders. Apparently local stuborness leads to the later. At least we in Hellas have an excusee for a big Military, which is something. At least we can brag like Stalin about our armoured divisions. lol

You are right about that,the local stubborness
Many are very short minded,and see only what they want to see.

Ordie

02-19-2008, 02:37 PM

Destructive nationalism?

Ichabod

02-19-2008, 02:38 PM

The regime in FYROM has followed and continued a very dangerous policy towards their citizens, of preaching something that they are simply not and that is Macedonian.

Look at their ethnological map, you have around 40% Albanians, significant numbers of Roma and Helleno-Vlachs, some Hellenes, Turks, Serbs, Bulgarians and lastly those bulgarian-speaking Slavomacedonians. The later (around half of the population) seem to promote and project their tremendously huge cultural dilemma against the entire country.

On the mean time 2 million Macedonians, proud members of the Hellenic Nation, are essentially watching as their culture and history is being hijacked by a confused lot of Slavs, supported directly by the US State Department but also fully recognised by Russia.

So the answer to your question is not what FYROM does, but more likely what the real Macedonians and the rest of Hellenes actually do. For the moment our goverment is performing at the worst possible manner on the issue if you ask me. "Slavomacedonia" could be a solution as long as the country is reshaped and the Albanians secede once and for all. Once this is done the Slavs can continue living in their dream, but this time much more weakened and dependent on us. The problem with that is that we currently don't want a Greater Albania, so they might as well consider themselves lucky.

So all in all, it suits us better to keep the situation on standby and them out of EU and NATO.

PS: Hellas has also to think about the big Hellenic minority in the Pelagonia region in FYROM, not even acknowledged by the local regime.

So even if Macedonia were to accept lets say the name of Slavomacedonia,you would still wish for an Albanian secession?
Why?

Carrying all that historical baggage must be exhausting to live in the Balkans.

Aye it is,but as someone said,its never boring :D

Ulytau

02-19-2008, 02:38 PM

Whats going on :S I hope journalist is better also you seen on news or something?

LHM

02-19-2008, 02:45 PM

People in Albania and Kosova don't want the Albanians to secede from FYROM or join one of the two. We have bigger plans ;)

phoebus

02-19-2008, 02:46 PM

So even if Macedonia were to accept lets say the name of Slavomacedonia,you would still wish for an Albanian secession?
Why?

I wouldn't wish it whole-heartly, but their shear numbers plus the illegal Kossovo precedent leads me to consider it as the most likely occurence. Hence what I wish for is that the Hellenic diplomacy would be one step ahead and get ready for the best possible result.

If you have asked me the same question prior to 1999 or even last month, I would have firmly opposed any secession anywhere in the Balkans. But once the sweater gets ripped, there's no way back. This trend was pursued jointly by USA and EU, ie the big guys started it.

phoebus

02-19-2008, 02:51 PM

People in Albania and Kosova don't want the Albanians to secede from FYROM or join one of the two. We have bigger plans

Some sort of uber-secret party on the Great Prespa lake? Count me in if there's raki and nice looking women, preferably of south-slavic origin. p-)

Destructive nationalism?

Add an "Partially, externally manipulated..." before your phrase and you're set.

Ichabod

02-19-2008, 02:52 PM

I wouldn't wish it whole-heartly, but their shear numbers plus the illegal Kossovo precedent leads me to consider it as the most likely occurence. Hence what I wish for is that the Hellenic diplomacy would be one step ahead and get ready for the best possible result.

If you have asked me the same question prior to 1999 or even last month, I would have firmly opposed any secession anywhere in the Balkans. But once the sweater gets ripped, there's no way back. This trend was pursued jointly by USA and EU, ie the big guys started it.

Yeah,however i don't think the Macedonians would ''accept it peacefully'' like the Serbians ;)

GREEK71AIRBORNE

02-19-2008, 02:56 PM

Here is a link about the siege of the Greek Liason office in Skopjie, and the injury of 2 greek journalists
http://www.naftemporiki.gr/news/static/08/02/19/1478063.htm

As for the name of the FYROM i would say "Vardatska"
Here are some maps of the area before Josef Tito's regime vaptised the region as "Macedonia"
http://bp2.blogger.com/_2oeLbEhyIs8/R5qUzW3NnRI/AAAAAAAABWs/tam_QwSw0Mo/s1600/vardarsca.bmp
http://bp3.blogger.com/_2oeLbEhyIs8/R5e16W3NmdI/AAAAAAAABQM/2cyyFLCdCnM/s1600/stampVARDASKA.jpg
http://www.montenet.org/history/banovina.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Vardar003.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/thumb/f/ff/Kgr._Jugoslawien.jpg/180px-Kgr._Jugoslawien.jpg

And here is the Constitution of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia 1931
http://bp1.blogger.com/_2oeLbEhyIs8/R6iaUm3NomI/AAAAAAAABhQ/A_AqP1xXyKs/s1600/constitu.jpg
as you can see there is no "Macedonia" but "Vardatska Banovina"

Peris

02-19-2008, 03:40 PM

PS: Hellas has also to think about the big Hellenic minority in the Pelagonia region in FYROM, not even acknowledged by the local regime.

the Germans did a census in ww2 and numbered 100.000 Greeks in 1941 in Pelagonia

In your region how many are you ?
In the wider area of Pelagonias, we are over 100.000 Greek orthodox. The thing is that they do not allow us to use the Greek churches of our ancestors, they are kept by the separatist priests of Skopje.

Some movement so that the problem of Greeks of Pelagonias will be published ?
I ask from each responsible Greek official, to protect my family, and me because we are in the foresight of secret services of Skopje. Because also my ancestors were four Macedonian fighters and I am a holder of the book of descendant of the Macedonian fighters, that was given to me ten years ago by the association of Macedonian fighters of Thessalonica. I am a clean Greek, Greek orthodox in the religion; I respect also the Hellenic church and the Ecumenical Patriarchate. We want the “Greek Community of Monastiri Pelagonias area, to be formed in order to protect our cultural heritage

http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/2008/02/100000-1941.html

Ordie

02-19-2008, 04:24 PM

If there are two Congo's, two Koreas, two Irelands and two Dakotas, why not two Macedonia's? :)

Vorian

02-19-2008, 04:48 PM

If there are two Congo's, two Koreas, two Irelands and two Dakotas, why not two Macedonia's? :)

Very similar and funny as well.....

Afro-European

02-19-2008, 04:59 PM

You read my mind. lol I was about to say the same thing.Back in Africa they even have: Guinea Bissau,Guinea Conackry and Equatorial Guinea.

If there are two Congo's, two Koreas, two Irelands and two Dakotas, why not two Macedonia's? :)

Afro-European

02-19-2008, 05:01 PM

You are right man. 2 EU and Nato members fighting over a name.:)

What's wrong with them? Don't they have enough problems already?

Ordie

02-19-2008, 05:05 PM

You read my mind. lol I was about to say the same thing.Back in Africa they even have: Guinea Bissau,Guinea Conackry and Equatorial Guinea.

You forgot New Guinea.

phoebus

02-19-2008, 05:12 PM

You are right man. 2 EU and Nato members fighting over a name.

First of all, FYROM is member of neither of those organisations and won't be if there's no bilateral settlement.

And I have to remind that the issue is not simply a post-colonial geographical difference or border settlement. It's more or less about cultural-historical hijacking, future expansionist aspirations against the Hellenic Geographical integrity plus a post yugoslavian syndrome of pseudo-nationalism on FYROM's side. On the Hellenic side I will give a decade-long diplomatical inaction, which worsened the situation, sent mixed messages and emboldened our northern neighbours.

A really complicated situation than many outsiders may consider.

Afro-European

02-19-2008, 05:38 PM

As a Greek how can this issue be solved in your opinion? coz i must admit that i find very ridiculous to see 2 neighboring "fighting" over a name.

First of all, FYROM is member of neither of those organisations and won't be if there's no bilateral settlement.

And I have to remind that the issue is not simply a post-colonial geographical difference or border settlement. It's more or less about cultural-historical hijacking, future expansionist aspirations against the Hellenic Geographical integrity plus a post yugoslavian syndrome of pseudo-nationalism on FYROM's side. On the Hellenic side I will give a decade-long diplomatical inaction, which worsened the situation, sent mixed messages and emboldened our northern neighbours.

A really complicated situation than many outsiders may consider.

Afro-European

02-19-2008, 05:39 PM

Yeah you are right but i was talking about Africa,p-)

You forgot New Guinea.

Ordie

02-19-2008, 06:06 PM

As a Greek how can this issue be solved in your opinion? coz i must admit that i find very ridiculous to see 2 neighboring "fighting" over a name.

It depends on which order of the alphabet and where they want to be seated at the UN.

If its FYROM then they would be seated next to France and a few feet away from Germany but within "spit wad" range of Greece at the UN General Assembly. (Not a bad choice being seated next to a Security Council Member)

If its Macedonia then they will be seated in between Madegascar and Luxemburg at the UN.

If its The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia then they will be seated in between Thailand and Timor Leste.

If they would change thier name to "United Macedonia" they would be sandwiched in-between the United Kingdom and United States at the UN.

Greece is seated between Grenada and Ghana. If the chose Hellas they would have been in-between Haiti and Honduras.

Peris

02-19-2008, 06:08 PM

As a Greek how can this issue be solved in your opinion? coz i must admit that i find very ridiculous to see 2 neighboring "fighting" over a name.

i think that at this level a compromise is the realpolitic in order to avoid further escalations.And we think of it as a responsible EU member in the area. If we were not in EU and NATO and had this kind of military power things would be otherwise.p-)

Don't forget that if the Fyrom albanians do anything provocative vs Greece we might do the wrong thing and blame the Fyromians.

AlboSwe

02-19-2008, 06:09 PM

bet EU most love the Balkans :)

LHM

02-19-2008, 06:16 PM

I think FYROM should STFU because it's in no position to argue with Greece about this.

Ordie

02-19-2008, 06:24 PM

I think FYROM should STFU because it's in no position to argue with Greece about this.

Kosovo would be in-between the Republic of Korea and Kuwait. Unless they want to merge with Albania and call themselves United Albania and sit in-between the Ukraine and the UAE but within two seats away from the US and the UK. (Kill two birds with one stone if you need a favor)

Shadowstorm

02-20-2008, 12:05 AM

Here some information on the naming issue if some people don't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute

chris450

02-20-2008, 01:15 AM

That's so pathetic from Greece....Are they affraid that Macedonia will try to annex part of Greece...:fork:

so irredentist propaganda according to you is something that we should be happy about...

this is the Prime Minnister of FYROM at the Goce Deltcev monument...notice the little map on it..you'll notice half of Greece is in there...you know how these things end up in this neighbourhood,we are growing tired of this bs

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/3837/2949mp7.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9781/zxc2js0.jpg

i think we are way toο soft on this issue

LHM

02-20-2008, 01:48 AM

I really don't know what's wrong with them lately. Their relations with Albania are getting preety cold. Here the media has abused them in every possible way because of a comment their FM made about Albania. The border was shut down for a couple of days. A few weeks ago they stopped the flow of the river Drin which was also wierd. To add to all this they're stirring up sh*t with the Albanians in Macedonia by taking down the Albanian flag in administrative buildings, which is totally unaceptable according the the Ohrid agreement. I think they're looking for a fight, werether it be it from Albania or Greece. Wierd people. They never learned that even a guy on a donkey with an ak47 can own their sorry a$$es.

Vorian

02-20-2008, 02:36 AM

http://athens.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/618px-macedonia_barbed_wire.jpg

This is what we get....

Read some priceless "facts" from their schoolbooks....

In the second grade History book of secondary education, the map that
defines the national borders of Macedonia includes the current area
of the FYROM, Bulgarian Macedonia and an area of Greek territory, of
which its south-western utmost point begins from the Greek-Albanian
borders, it follows the ridge of mountain Olympus and continues along
the whole Aegean coastal area, up to the bordering lines of
prefectures Kavala and Xanthi.

The Reading text of 8th grade, referring to the Vilaets of
Thessaloniki, Monastiri, Kosovo-Skopje, the area of “Greater
Macedonia”, states: “Macedonian land, land of the Fathers, land of
the Ancestors, from Ohrid to the Aegean and to Pirin”.

Equally characteristic, for the stereotype “Macedonia” and the
consecutive fabricated arguments that are cultivated in the students
of the FYROM, are also the verses included in the 2nd grade Reader of
public education:

“To Macedonia with love: From Pelister to Pirin, from Vroutok to the
white Aegean, three flowers - a bouquet of flowers, a united nation.
Macedonia, dear land! Beautiful land since many centuries, your name
awakens love, a heart in three flowers, it offers us much love,
Macedonia, name eternal!”

I wonder why everyone thinks we are childish over this issue. Yes, they can't threaten us militarily or in any other way. So, what? Are we going to leave this like this?

GREEK71AIRBORNE

02-20-2008, 02:53 AM

Back to topic here are some photos from yesterday's attack in the Greek Liason office at Skopjie
http://bp3.blogger.com/_OPg-Kn4CzDg/R7tLTldUt9I/AAAAAAAABsk/i5JRUK4-0XE/s1600/DSC00209.JPG
http://bp2.blogger.com/_OPg-Kn4CzDg/R7tNKVdUt-I/AAAAAAAABss/_A0_yTCoSv8/s1600/DSC00211.JPG
http://bp0.blogger.com/_OPg-Kn4CzDg/R7tNe1dUt_I/AAAAAAAABs0/P6YBJvjls-s/s1600/DSC00213.JPG
http://bp0.blogger.com/_OPg-Kn4CzDg/R7tN_1dUuAI/AAAAAAAABs8/6ZKnnbSTDfg/s1600/DSC00212.JPG

achilles

02-20-2008, 04:57 AM

As a Greek how can this issue be solved in your opinion? coz i must admit that i find very ridiculous to see 2 neighboring "fighting" over a name.

A "name" is not just a "name". If it were that simple, France would not prevent the UK from officially calling herself "Britain", in order to prevent any future territorial claims on the French region of Britany.

For the same reasons we need to distinct ourselves, the actual Greek-Macedonians, from the brainwashed Slavo-Bulgar-Albanian "Macedonians" up North in order to prevent precisely this: territorial claims and missappropriation of the Hellenic-Macedonian history, both of which are taking place as we speak. FYROM's propaganda and ultra nationalism has flourished all these years with the blessings of the US, other good "western" Greek allies, the enormous funding of George Soros and of course the inaction of Greek governments.

All in all, a name is not just a name. Things with FYROM are not that simple and if i must take a guess they will get even more complicated, given the strong support they receive from the US.

GreekMacedon

02-20-2008, 07:38 PM

READ ALL THE RULES and stickies............ This is a English Language Forum

GreekMacedon

02-20-2008, 08:11 PM

Sorry Mister HOLLis I was just suggesting pages written in Greek. That's all!
Here I go again...

Have you ever heard of the Greek minority in FYROM? http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/2007/11/blog-post_18.html

About BBC and Britannica's reports on minority and langauges spoken in Greece? Check this http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/2008/02/bbc.html

Watch this movie to get suspicious http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/2008/02/zeitgeist-to-watch-carefully.html

and read about Greek public emploee who accuses Greece for impossible things here (http://bp1.blogger.com/_2oeLbEhyIs8/R7C2CuAZD8I/AAAAAAAABlw/KXYHZvPyLY0/s1600-h/meionotita.jpg)

You ll find lot of material about FYROM and the problems with neighbouring countries here (http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com)

Pars

02-20-2008, 08:15 PM

The Albanians seem to have a habit of making a lot of noise. Of course, all my sympathy in this matter lies with Greece.

chris450

02-21-2008, 01:14 AM

guys we dont need to keep repeating ourselves...the matter is well known and documented

here is a resolution of the US Congress on the matter...`hostile activities or propaganda'...btw Obama signed it too
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.Res.300:

Flamming_Python

02-21-2008, 02:20 AM

A "name" is not just a "name". If it were that simple, France would not prevent the UK from officially calling herself "Britain", in order to prevent any future territorial claims on the French region of Britany.

For the same reasons we need to distinct ourselves, the actual Greek-Macedonians, from the brainwashed Slavo-Bulgar-Albanian "Macedonians" up North in order to prevent precisely this: territorial claims and missappropriation of the Hellenic-Macedonian history, both of which are taking place as we speak. FYROM's propaganda and ultra nationalism has flourished all these years with the blessings of the US, other good "western" Greek allies, the enormous funding of George Soros and of course the inaction of Greek governments.

All in all, a name is not just a name. Things with FYROM are not that simple and if i must take a guess they will get even more complicated, given the strong support they receive from the US.

Well to be fair Achilles, you don't see Turkey having problems with Bulgaria adopting the name of an ancient Turkic tribe, any more than you see Norway having a negative attitude towards Russia, for taking the name of a Varangian people.

Vorian

02-21-2008, 04:30 AM

Well to be fair Achilles, you don't see Turkey having problems with Bulgaria adopting the name of an ancient Turkic tribe, any more than you see Norway having a negative attitude towards Russia, for taking the name of a Varangian people.

Bulgaria was called Bulgaria way before Turks arrived in Anatolia, as for Russia, I think the first Russia state was created by that tribe. So it's completely irrelevant.

The problem is that the names you mentioned have something to do with those names, FYROM lies in the northern edge of the Ottoman province called Macedonia (and completely outside of ancient one) and they try called themselves Macedonians while there are two million people in Greece that called themselves the same way and really don't like that, espeially after seeing maps with their homes included in the fantasy borders FYROM nationalists envision

PANKRASTIS

02-21-2008, 07:44 AM

Go away for while, come back log on, and the world's gone to sh#t, had i known i was that indispensible i would have stayed!!

But seriously, Kosovo was bad enough, attacking the Hellenic Mission? C'mon, do our freinds actualy want any help when the uncertainties of Kosovo spill over into Tetovo, or should i say already have but are yet to ignite in the way NATO & EU expect they will but hope they won't.

Or do they beleive that by attacking the Greeks, Bulgarians & Serbs, that they are pleasing & guaranteeing the assistace of the US & Turkey when push comes to shove.

Interesting Strategic Doctrine they seem to have adopted.

Stonewall71

02-21-2008, 08:23 AM

crap, this all mess gets better and better:cantbeli:

Albanians want half of Macedonia/FYROM, Macedonians want half of Greece...

And people still ask "why do care about kosovo?" :|

GreekMacedon

02-21-2008, 09:07 AM

Five names ALL that likes FYROM. No consideration of Greek objections
Read them here (http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/)

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 09:08 AM

Bulgaria was called Bulgaria way before Turks arrived in Anatolia, as for Russia, I think the first Russia state was created by that tribe. So it's completely irrelevant.

The problem is that the names you mentioned have something to do with those names, FYROM lies in the northern edge of the Ottoman province called Macedonia (and completely outside of ancient one) and they try called themselves Macedonians while there are two million people in Greece that called themselves the same way and really don't like that, espeially after seeing maps with their homes included in the fantasy borders FYROM nationalists envision

That's true but are you talking about 1200 years ago? who still cares?

phoebus

02-21-2008, 09:39 AM

That's true but are you talking about 1200 years ago? who still cares?

Where exactly did you read that in Vorians' post concerning the geographical aspect of the issue at hand? You're not making much sense.

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 09:46 AM

Where exactly did you read that in Vorians' post concerning the geographical aspect of the issue at hand? You're not making much sense.

you do and it is enough for all. Thanks.

phoebus

02-21-2008, 09:51 AM

you do and it is enough for all. Thanks.

Listen mate, if you want to debate go ahead and do it (that's why we're all here) by being more specific and coherent in whatever you post. I can't understand what's the purpose of "who still cares?" posts in what seemed to be a perfectly nice thread. Your choice.

Vorian

02-21-2008, 10:21 AM

Clearday during the past your post were of much higher quality.

Either somebody uses your account or you are in a bad mood, get over it.

Ordie

02-21-2008, 10:43 AM

Five names ALL that likes FYROM. No consideration of Greek objections
Read them here (http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/)

It's all Greek to me.....

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 10:46 AM

Clearday during the past your post were of much higher quality.

Either somebody uses your account or you are in a bad mood, get over it.

Thanks for your comment Vorian, my problem is not Greeks, it is about unbalanced threads coming continuesly by one-side.

@ phoebus, you very well understand what I mean, but ignoring these things seems working well at your side.

Stonewall71

02-21-2008, 11:08 AM

It's all Greek to me.....

same here:|

can someone translate?

Peris

02-21-2008, 12:04 PM

Five names ALL that likes FYROM. No consideration of Greek objections
Read them here (http://macedonia-greece.blogspot.com/)

man do you know that you in an ENGLISH language forum?

Peris

02-21-2008, 12:06 PM

same here:|

can someone translate?

The five composite names being proposed by Nimetz to replace the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) are: Democratic Republic of Macedonia, Constitutional Republic of Macedonia, Independent Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Upper Macedonia and New Republic of Macedonia.

Nimetz also reportedly proposed a ban on the commercial use of the name Macedonia by either Greece or FYROM.:roll::roll::roll::roll:

Vorian

02-21-2008, 12:26 PM

The five composite names being proposed by Nimetz to replace the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) are: Democratic Republic of Macedonia, Constitutional Republic of Macedonia, Independent Republic of Macedonia, Republic of Upper Macedonia and New Republic of Macedonia.

Nimetz also reportedly proposed a ban on the commercial use of the name Macedonia by either Greece or FYROM.:roll::roll::roll::roll:

Nimitz is either playing with us or is a complete moron.

"So Greeks, you don't agree with 'Republic of Macedonia'"
"Nope"
"What about Democratic Republic?"
"Are you serious?"
"Wait, wait. Constitutional Republic?"
"....."

phoebus

02-21-2008, 12:30 PM

Nimitz is either playing with us or is a complete moron.

"So Greeks, you don't agree with 'Republic of Macedonia'"
"Nope"
"What about Democratic Republic?"
"Are you serious?"
"Wait, wait. Constitutional Republic?"
"....."

He's just a tool to be honest. What he promotes is simply the US policy on the issue, which simply wants to wrap everything up and close the issue. In this case this is highly unfavourable towards us and peace and stability in the region.

Following his tactic of proposing random names, maybe he can put a "banana" in front, I'd consider it. j/k :)

Peris

02-21-2008, 12:32 PM

That's true but are you talking about 1200 years ago? who still cares?

the handwritting of the Greek officer says: Spy in occupied Greece, Macedonia 1944.

http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hpim0462uj0.jpg

actually fighting for this land never stopped.

Vorian

02-21-2008, 12:38 PM

He's just a tool to be honest. What he promotes is simply the US policy on the issue, which simply wants to wrap everything up and close the issue. In this case this is highly unfavourable towards us and peace and stability in the region.

Following his tactic of proposing random names, maybe he can put a "banana" in front, I'd consider it. j/k :)

According to some the "trap" is that we accept to bargain over these names and let them in NATO, dragging the issue forever since afterwards we won't be needed.

Peris

02-21-2008, 12:41 PM

let's not forget the personal economic gain for Nimetz all these years for his ''services''.p-)

phoebus

02-21-2008, 12:53 PM

According to some the "trap" is that we accept to bargain over these names and let them in NATO, dragging the issue forever since afterwards we won't be needed.

Yeap, I agree that it would be ideal initially to veto their accession to both EU & NATO. And then address any remaining issues. After that maybe themselves they can rethink of the consequences of their isolationist and pseudo-nationalistic agenda, against the Hellenic National integrity.

Peris

02-21-2008, 01:15 PM

just reported that Albanians of Tetovo burned FYROM flags Link not yet

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 04:37 PM

just reported that Albanians of Tetovo burned FYROM flags Link not yet

breaking news 1: they burned FYROM flag
breaking news 2: FYROM is actually no FYROM
breaking news 3: Greece must occupy FYROM
breaking news 4: God save Greece and Greece like, damn FYROMs or some else about fayrom...

just reported (sorry no link, my brain must be used as a link for you...)

Some Albanians walk away at streets for greater Albania and some others run away...note: we dont know why they run away, will be given in a few days later with no link.

Hey guys, I love this game (sure...NBA) p-)

I know these things bring me an antipathy but also from only one side, our MP.net's Greek guys. Long live Greece, this world is better with you !!!

eilikrina
take care friends,
CDTRF

achilles

02-21-2008, 04:44 PM

Have you been feeling allright lately, CD? :lol: What r u talking about?

Peris

02-21-2008, 05:14 PM

breaking news 1: they burned FYROM flag
breaking news 2: FYROM is actually no FYROM
breaking news 3: Greece must occupy FYROM
breaking news 4: God save Greece and Greece like, damn FYROMs or some else about fayrom...

just reported (sorry no link, my brain must be used as a link for you...)

Some Albanians walk away at streets for greater Albania and some others run away...note: we dont know why they run away, will be given in a few days later with no link.

Hey guys, I love this game (sure...NBA) p-)

I know these things bring me an antipathy but also from only one side, our MP.net's Greek guys. Long live Greece, this world is better with you !!!

eilikrina
take care friends,
CDTRF

why do you react like this when i post breaking news without a link?

is this the first time this incident happens? this time is more interesting because of the timing. how many times happened before?

''
Thousands of ethnic Albanians have protested in the Former Republic of Macedonia against the killing of an ethnic Albanian during Saturday's police raids. ''

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/176320.stm

''
TETOVO, Macedonia (AP) —Hundreds of ethnic Albanian students marched on Monday ..........''

http://www.unpo.org/article.php?id=1700

did the news i posted about the attack on the Greek embassy in fyrom were indeed confirmed? :)

Relax

Sag Ol

Peris

02-21-2008, 05:18 PM

Have you been feeling allright lately, CD? :lol: What r u talking about?

mabe he's angry about the developments in the Kurdish issue and the upcoming joint US- Kurd declarations in the spring.

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 05:25 PM

mabe he's angry about the developments in the Kurdish issue and the upcoming joint US- Kurd declarations in the spring.

hahaa...good, you still stuck in pointless things, it shows what you usually think about these.

What kurdish? what declarations? there is only one thing upcoming joint US-Turkey operations (still going now) to the N.Iraq soils. USA is well-known who must be defended-allied in the region very well than you peris. Past is a proof, future is the signal :)

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 05:27 PM

Have you been feeling allright lately, CD? :lol: What r u talking about?

AC,you know we are the ex-mp.net users, take care...just trip around,nothing more. :)

Shadowstorm

02-21-2008, 05:29 PM

I believe everybody is getting piss off.

achilles

02-21-2008, 05:30 PM

Mate, i cant really see what you problem is. What i see is that you are dragging the level of this thread down with your, indeed, pointless and juvenile posts.

Got an argument to unfold? Please do so by all means, otherwise you are wasting your keystrokes and this site's bandwidth.

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 05:31 PM

I believe everybody is getting piss off.

my point goes to you.

@ AC, already said, just j/k after a heavy fitness training. p-)

Peris

02-21-2008, 05:40 PM

What kurdish? what declarations?

can i tell you without posting a link ?:)

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 05:42 PM

can i tell you without posting a link ?:)

sure you are...best link is non-link. And you like it. p-)

achilles

02-21-2008, 05:42 PM

can i tell you without posting a link ?:)

shhhhh....he is busy playing with his location now :lol:

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 05:43 PM

shhhhh....he is busy playing with his location now :lol:

yep yep, locations, you got it. ohh nooo...:)

Clearday-TRForce

02-21-2008, 05:46 PM

@ Shadowstorm, we still pissing off...p-)

Nickchios

02-21-2008, 08:01 PM

Tell you what. Why don't you give back to Macedonia the part that HellAss stole, and will call it quits. No name dispute, no nothing.
It sounds very reasonable doesn't it. Too bad Nimitz is not a very creative guy.
Now, I've read some stupid sh*t in my life... but this has to top it all.
I mean how many ignorant people can this planet hold?? A lot i guess, and sadly most of them live on the other side of the Macedonian border (the southern one).
And something about the HellAss embassy (or whatever they wanna call it) in Macedonia, it had only 1 (ONE) broken window!!
The dipshi*s in the HellAss television decided to show the Belgrade demonstrations instead the Macedonian ones, and the torching of the American embassy, as the torching/destroying of the Greek embassy. Now... how crazy is that?
Was it a mistake...mmmmm, don't think so.
Oh, somebody said the Greece had a strong army....SO WHAT!? Big deal, what are you gona do with it!? Attack us maybe..... Pffffff......get a life. You cant do S**t and you know it....c'mon admit it. :-)

No comments........ but a post totally out of reality...:-(:-(:-(

Nonekutakesh

02-21-2008, 08:03 PM

crap, this all mess gets better and better:cantbeli:

Albanians want half of Macedonia/FYROM, Macedonians want half of Greece...

And people still ask "why do care about kosovo?" :|
What does Kosova have to do with this? People have been wanting other peoples land for centruries, especially in the Balkans.

achilles

02-22-2008, 03:01 AM

No comments........ but a post totally out of reality...:-(:-(:-(

The amount of their brainwashing is simply amazing. This must be the most succesful attempt in history to create an artifical ethnicity. Well done Tito...

Vorian

02-22-2008, 03:55 AM

The amount of their brainwashing is simply amazing. This must be the most succesful attempt in history to create an artifical ethnicity. Well done Tito...

Nope, we are the best. Apparently we stole a foreign land occupied by millions of foreign people and did so, in a way that after 95 years the world and those poor oppressed people have forgotten everything about it and think they are Greek.

I say let's attack US next. Who's with me? :roll:

Clearday-TRForce

02-22-2008, 04:17 AM

achilles

02-22-2008, 04:19 AM

Nope, we are the best. Apparently we stole a foreign land occupied by millions of foreign people and did so, in a way that after 95 years the world and those poor oppressed people have forgotten everything about it and think they are Greek.

I say let's attack US next. Who's with me? :roll:

Its common sense, man. Why would Greece EVER want to create an artificial ethnicity and appropriate someone else's history? We got plenty of both, maybe even more than we want! Macedonia was Hellenic for thousands and thousands of years. Slavs and Bulgars (i am not sure when the Albanians showed up in the region) showed up more than 1000 years later. Historically, the Skopjans are COMPLETELY delinked from Macedonia. It just happened that SOME of them used to live side by side with the Greek community on Macedonian (i.e. Hellenic) turf.

Skopje on the other hand, as a new country, a by product of the Yugoslavian collapse, needed an identity. An identity frist granted by Joseph Tito after WWII, when he decided to introduce the "macedonian" ethnicity in Skopje in order to raise historical and eventually territorial claims in Greece. The real Macedonia, i.e. the Greek one, would be Yugoslavia's path to the Aegean. Too bad this was bound not to work.

Its Sad that modern Skopjian are so much deceived due to Tito's expansionism.

That's the story in a nutshell, which of course is a bit more complicated than that.

achilles

02-22-2008, 04:21 AM

@ Zarkus,

Tell us what are you knowing about Macedonians and Greeks. What is the main difference? what is historically different for you and origin for Macedonians?

What are they teaching you in school desks about Macedonia? I kindly ask you that I have not much information about that. What I know is just political things and Turks is one of the best ally of yours. But this is another political case.

The Macedonian issue is a very sensitive issue for us Greeks. If you are actually trying to make a constructive discussion please go ahead. Otherwise dont stir things up and stay out of threads you shouldnt be engaged with in the first place.

Nickchios

02-22-2008, 04:28 AM

Clearday-TRForce

02-22-2008, 04:33 AM

The Macedonian issue is a very sensitive issue for us Greeks. If you are actually trying to make a constructive discussion please go ahead. Otherwise dont stir things up and stay out of threads you shouldnt be engaged with in the first place.

Don't understand me wrong. I don't know much about your affairs with them. These are just kindly questions,don't have a secret agenda. Just wonder they are very keen on this conflict and looks like they feel so much different than yours. If they, how have they achieved to reach result? what makes them different?

alvarhanso

02-22-2008, 04:35 AM

Nope, we are the best. Apparently we stole a foreign land occupied by millions of foreign people and did so, in a way that after 95 years the world and those poor oppressed people have forgotten everything about it and think they are Greek.

I couldn't agree more! Except for the part of "poor oppressed people", don't get me wrong, they are oppressed, but somehow i don't think they feel Greek (about two million of them, actually).
And that's why there's a hassle in Greece these days..... with the so called name dispute and all.
It might sound far fetched for the Greeks here what Zarkus wrote, but i think he hit the nail on the head with that one.

Another thing, this tread is full of flaming and trolling, it's filled with hatred toward a certain nation and stupid remarks with no ground base.
It is time to close it. There is no need for this kind of thing in these times.

Nickchios

02-22-2008, 04:38 AM

achilles

02-22-2008, 04:41 AM

Don't understand me wrong. I don't know much about your affairs with them. These are just kindly questions,don't have a secret agenda. Just wonder they are very keen on this conflict and looks like they feel so much different than yours. If they, how have they achieved to reach result? what makes them different?

If you have ever followed what the Greeks have been saying on this issue without any predisposition you would have had your answers.

Asking a FYROMian i stricky because those guys do not have any uniformity in their opinions. A hard-liner would tell you that he is a true descendant of Alexander the Great and that Greece occupies "Macedonian" land.

A more moderate FYROMIAN knows that they have nothing to do with ancient Makedons however thinks that his country has a claim on the term "macedonia" given that his people have been living on Macedonian soil for quite some time.

Other FYROMians are Albanians. Others are of Greek origin. There is a great confusion about the identity of the people in that country.

Vorian

02-22-2008, 04:41 AM

I couldn't agree more! Except for the part of "poor oppressed people", don't get me wrong, they are oppressed, but somehow i don't think they feel Greek (about two million of them, actually).
And that's why there's a hassle in Greece these days..... with the so called name dispute and all.
It might sound far fetched for the Greeks here what Zarkus wrote, but i think he hit the nail on the head with that one.

Another thing, this tread is full of flaming and trolling, it's filled with hatred toward a certain nation and stupid remarks with no ground base.
It is time to close it. There is no need for this kind of thing in these times.

Sorry mate but if there were two million people that don't feel Greek living here, somebody would have noticed.
I mean it's the one fifth of the total population. We can't be hiding these numbers, not even Stalin would be so successful rofl

Clearday-TRForce

02-22-2008, 04:42 AM

Of course not.... understand you wrong..... especially when i am reading your new expression in the avatar!!!!!:):)

don't take it personal. p-)

alvarhanso

02-22-2008, 04:45 AM

Sorry mate but if there were two million people that don't feel Greek living here, somebody would have noticed.
I mean it's the one fifth of the total population. We can't be hiding these numbers, not even Stalin would be so successful rofl

But they have noticed buddy, shame that your media doesn't publish such things.
Talk about a Stalin regime. :cantbeli:

achilles

02-22-2008, 04:47 AM

I couldn't agree more! Except for the part of "poor oppressed people", don't get me wrong, they are oppressed, but somehow i don't think they feel Greek (about two million of them, actually).
And that's why there's a hassle in Greece these days..... with the so called name dispute and all.
It might sound far fetched for the Greeks here what Zarkus wrote, but i think he hit the nail on the head with that one.

Another thing, this tread is full of flaming and trolling, it's filled with hatred toward a certain nation and stupid remarks with no ground base.
It is time to close it. There is no need for this kind of thing in these times.

If you dont like the thread, just stay out.

Other than that, its good to back up your preposterous claims with some sort of credible sources. I can back up all my claims, can you?

Clearday-TRForce

02-22-2008, 04:49 AM

As I know the Republic of Macedonia is a Southeast European country, north of Greece and west of Bulgaria. Macedonians make up 66% of Macedonia's population of 2 million, Albanians 23%, and Turks, Vlach, and Serbs, the rest (1994 census).

The matter is a little complicated Macedonia, The country is a member of the UN and the Council of Europe and a member of La Francophonie, the World Trade Organization (WTO), and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Since December 2005 it is also a candidate for joining the European Union and has applied for NATO membership.

alvarhanso

02-22-2008, 04:53 AM

If you dont like the thread, just stay out.

Other than that, its good to back up your preposterous claims with some sort of credible sources. I can back up all my claims, can you?

Weeeeelllll, for starters i'm Macedonian, and preposterous claims is all i have read from the first page to the seventh until zarkus wrote something that sounded reasonable.
If by backing up you're claims, you mean starting to post some questionable Greek sources, go ahead i've read them hundreds of times... and they are always a "good" read.

Vorian

02-22-2008, 04:54 AM

But they have noticed buddy, shame that your media doesn't publish such things.
Talk about a Stalin regime. :cantbeli:

Yes, yes, there are two million people that don't want to stay in Greece, which has a population of 11 million and nobody noticed cause our evil media and oppressive government silence everything. Too bad one of my best friends studies in Thessaloniki, I guess he will be caught up in the glorious uprising that will liberate them from the evil Greek regime that somehow tricked EU into letting us in.

I hope the mods will ban this troll soon.

alvarhanso

02-22-2008, 04:58 AM

Yes, yes, there are two million people that don't want to stay in Greece, which has a population of 11 million and nobody noticed cause our evil media and oppressive government silence everything. Too bad one of my best friends studies in Thessaloniki, I guess he will be caught up in the glorious uprising that will liberate them from the evil Greek regime that somehow tricked EU into letting us in.

I hope the mods will ban this troll soon.

Troll!? Troll!? Immediately someone shows up with a statement different from yours, and it's trolling!!!???
Well, let me tell you something, i already reported this tread to the mods, and hopefully it will be closed soon.
I've haven't read so much BS since the last Macedonia-Greece tread was closed.

achilles

02-22-2008, 04:59 AM

I hope the mods will ban this troll soon.

x2...

On the other hand i am more than willing to talk thing over with a FYROMian who is not a troll and i mean it. Credible arguments..thats what i am expecting from the other side and just cant find it!

alvarhanso

02-22-2008, 05:00 AM

It's hardly my fault there is censorship in your country, is it?

achilles

02-22-2008, 05:02 AM

Troll!? Troll!? Immediately someone shows up with a statement different from yours, and it's trolling!!!???
Well, let me tell you something, i already reported this tread to the mods, and hopefully it will be closed soon.
I've haven't read so much BS since the last Macedonia-Greece tread was closed.

A troll is a provocative and, in your case, ignorant user whose only aim is to stir things up, create tension and simply cannot support ANY of his / her claims with any sort of credible source.

You definitely fullfil this definition.

Want us to talk? Well, you can begin with telling what Macedonia is all about and its history. Can you do that?

Clearday-TRForce

02-22-2008, 05:02 AM

I will be out of this thread due to not to harm our Greek friends and be kind each other.

achilles

02-22-2008, 05:05 AM

It's hardly my fault there is censorship in your country, is it?

Good...you got a question there, which means you are on the riht track, as opposed to jumping onto stupid conclusions.

Not here is no censorship at this end of the line. Ever heard of the "internet"? Ever heard of the ability to conduct "independent readings"? I am sure you have..

The greek position as well as yours are presented here all over the media. Freely and openly. The fact your position can be so easily refuted is a different story.

Nickchios

02-22-2008, 05:07 AM

alvarhanso

02-22-2008, 05:09 AM

A troll is a provocative and, in your case, ignorant user whose only aim is to stir things up, create tension and simply cannot support ANY of his / her claims with any sort of credible source.

You definitely fullfil this definition.

Want us to talk? Well, you can begin with telling what Macedonia is all about and its history. Can you do that?

Knock yourself out. I wish you pleasant reading.

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/

There's no time (hopefully) to discuss history here, if the mods are reading, this 'hate speech' tread will be closed soon. I'll be outa here, so you can enjoy youre "brotherly love" amongst yourselves.

achilles

02-22-2008, 05:19 AM

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/

rofl rofl ...............

fujiX

02-22-2008, 06:12 AM

I wish you pleasant I'll be outa here, so you can enjoy youre "brotherly love" amongst yourselves.

:roll:

Sad, just sad.

Peris

02-22-2008, 08:20 AM

Also the first president of FYROM president Mr. Kiro Gligorov confirmed twice that they are not related to the ancient Macedonians:

"We are Slavswoot who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."

(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35. )

Assassination attempt

On October 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_3), 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995), Gligorov was the target of a car bomb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_bomb) assassination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin) attempt in Skopje (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skopje). The vehicle carrying Gligorov was damaged by an explosion from another vehicle parked alongside the road which served as a regular route by which he travelled from his residence to his office

speaking the truth really can get you in trouble in Fyrom:)