Why IDF is in Gaza ?

[AirZone]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/1.stm

Because we dont want more people like him...
you guys always hear about the poor palastines, but did you heard about the suicide bombers victims ? 1 girl I knew got killed in a bus from a suicide bomber (it was the same bus I took early at the same morning) and another got wounded pretty bad. RIP :|

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/1.stm

Awww bad zionists kill palastines like the nazis :roll:
where is the 200,000 houses that was destroyed ? o_O (im talkin about philidapi area)

Just showing the Israeli point of view...no propeganda.

[alexjulian]

BBC been anti Israel 4 a while

Listening BBC radio 5 and couple months ago in the afternoon they interview a settler and call her Nazi

BBC very "politically correct" and very dull to listen to

[afrographX]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?


:D

[Javehn]

Hello , mister .

Right now there are 2 threads burried down in the general topic , on some of the things happened in Rafah . They are way down on the page list , and they were posted not long time ago . I can assume that it was very little interest for you to read, because it didn't stear the **** as you like .

But here ,where you can make your bull**** , you do it . So , what's up with that ? 2 threads and no one read them , no one responded . But here you are bulli****ing again .

Interesting , don't you say ?


to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

Well , i was under impression that they are recieving medical help and care from Israel now ... Oh ,wait , so sorry !!

It's on the other threads , the one you don't take any interest . Who cares , that one is not interesting .

As i said again , it's very easy for bull**** keyboard idiot commando like you to write what's on your pity mind .

[Moledet]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?
Hmm no, it's not their right to "defend themself" because if there was no resistance only the houses with the tunnels would have been destroyed.
And the tunnels are being used not to just smuggle weapons to "struggle" they are being used to smuggle long range rockets (i.e. Katyusha) that will be shot on Israeli cities. Why should we put up with this? Why should we let them shoot on our cities?
What do you mean they have no other possibility? If hey want to fight for "their" land then they need to fight the soldiers and not the Israeli civilians in Tel Aviv.
The way we fight them? You mean not bombing Raffiah like US did in Fallujaha and killed 400 people in a week? Maybe we also need to blow up mosques.
We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

[cut]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/1.stm

Because we dont want more people like him...
you guys always hear about the poor palastines, but did you heard about the suicide bombers victims ? 1 girl I knew got killed in a bus from a suicide bomber (it was the same bus I took early at the same morning) and another got wounded pretty bad. RIP :|

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/1.stm

Awww bad zionists kill palastines like the nazis :roll:
where is the 200,000 houses that was destroyed ? o_O (im talkin about philidapi area)

Just showing the Israeli point of view...no propeganda.

don't worry we hear both sides of the argument, is it that hard to believe that we are against this kind of Israeli action despite knowing all that israel tells us? Do you really think that the majority of the world is stupid or what?

[IDFM203]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. Like the Brits say, I cant be arsed (well thats the limit of what the Brits say ;)) to go at it with you and "enlighten" another IMO ignoramus on some of the fallacies of the rest of your post, however this one line here is all that I will concern myself with.

No we don’t fight a war against them, its the other way around!!

I say to you, even if we didn’t fire a single shot in our self defense, not one shot, they would still be sending in homicide bombers, their gunman and snipers would still be shooting at our civilians and towns, and their mortars and rockets would still be hitting our cities and in fact I say as a result of us not doing a thing to defend ourselves (not one shot) the level of their attacks would then jump ten or 100 fold.

So no we arent fighting a war against them, its the other way around where its they that are fighting the war against us!!

Shalom :(

[cut]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

what would you do in their shoes?

[Geezah]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

Why were they told to leave and why do you say the whole conflict was created by the Arabs?
Also why would they now be Israeli citizens wouldn't they be Palestinians?

[Javehn]

Well , here it goes again ,so good luck . :roll:

[Moledet]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

Why were they told to leave and why do you say the whole conflict was created by the Arabs?
Also why would they now be Israeli citizens wouldn't they be Palestinians?
The Arabs in 1948 told the leaders of the Arabian population in former Palestine that they gonna bomb all the cities in Israel and whoever will stay will probably get killed. They told them to leave until they will slaughter all the Jews and then they will be able to return. We won the war against the Arabian countries and the Arabs that left got stuck in the Arabian countries. We didn't want them to get back because they betrayed the country and cooporated with the enemy and they didn't even care that the plan was to kill all the Jews in Israel.
The Arabs that stayed are Israel's citizens (200,000 Arabs stayed in Israel in 1948), they enjoy full rights like every Israeli and some benefits that Jewish not orthodox Israelis don't have.

[W(M)D]

Well , here it goes again ,so good luck . :roll:

'Nitkalta milphanim - kadimah le'histaer' LOL

[Geezah]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

Why were they told to leave and why do you say the whole conflict was created by the Arabs?
Also why would they now be Israeli citizens wouldn't they be Palestinians?
The Arabs in 1948 told the leaders of the Arabian population in former Palestine that they gonna bomb all the cities in Israel and whoever will stay will probably get killed. They told them to leave until they will slaughter all the Jews and then they will be able to return. We won the war against the Arabian countries and the Arabs that left got stuck in the Arabian countries. We didn't want them to get back because they betrayed the country and cooporated with the enemy and they didn't even care that the plan was to kill all the Jews in Israel.
The Arabs that stayed are Israel's citizens (200,000 Arabs stayed in Israel in 1948), they enjoy full rights like every Israeli and some benefits that Jewish not orthodox Israelis don't have.

I thought a full scale war broke out because of the Arab protests against the partition with attacks on Jewish settlements? In turn Israeli terrorist groups went to Arab towns and villages and massacred hundereds of palenstinians in their homes which led to a full scale war?

[Graeme]

Jesus H. Christ, you've just opened the biggest pot of **** ever. Posts discussing isreal and palestine shouldnt be in here, take them to general discussion. its been said many a time, f*ck off with it. Not only does it cause flame wars, it clogs posts up and is stupidly boring.

[Javehn]

Well , here it goes again ,so good luck . :roll:

'Nitkalta milphanim - kadimah le'histaer' LOL

"Nitkalnu , esh lehiluts
Hihalstsut leahor " ;)

[Moledet]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

Why were they told to leave and why do you say the whole conflict was created by the Arabs?
Also why would they now be Israeli citizens wouldn't they be Palestinians?
The Arabs in 1948 told the leaders of the Arabian population in former Palestine that they gonna bomb all the cities in Israel and whoever will stay will probably get killed. They told them to leave until they will slaughter all the Jews and then they will be able to return. We won the war against the Arabian countries and the Arabs that left got stuck in the Arabian countries. We didn't want them to get back because they betrayed the country and cooporated with the enemy and they didn't even care that the plan was to kill all the Jews in Israel.
The Arabs that stayed are Israel's citizens (200,000 Arabs stayed in Israel in 1948), they enjoy full rights like every Israeli and some benefits that Jewish not orthodox Israelis don't have.

I thought a full scale war broke out because of the Arab protests against the partition with attacks on Jewish settlements? In turn Israeli terrorist groups went to Arab towns and villages and massacred hundereds of palenstinians in their homes which led to a full scale war?
Totaly wrong. In 1948, 24 hours after Ben Gurion declared Israel's independence the Arabs declared war on Israel, when all the protests, attack, etc... happend?
You probably mean the conflict that was between the Jews and the Arabs that lived here in 1947, there were mututal attacks of gangs from both sides, it didn't lead to war.

[Saranof]

Personally, I think basing a state on ethnic and religious grounds is stupid. Especially if someone already lived on the land you planned to put the country on.

[He219]

Off you go into the General Discussions Forum .. *Moved*

p-)

[Geezah]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

Why were they told to leave and why do you say the whole conflict was created by the Arabs?
Also why would they now be Israeli citizens wouldn't they be Palestinians?
The Arabs in 1948 told the leaders of the Arabian population in former Palestine that they gonna bomb all the cities in Israel and whoever will stay will probably get killed. They told them to leave until they will slaughter all the Jews and then they will be able to return. We won the war against the Arabian countries and the Arabs that left got stuck in the Arabian countries. We didn't want them to get back because they betrayed the country and cooporated with the enemy and they didn't even care that the plan was to kill all the Jews in Israel.
The Arabs that stayed are Israel's citizens (200,000 Arabs stayed in Israel in 1948), they enjoy full rights like every Israeli and some benefits that Jewish not orthodox Israelis don't have.

I thought a full scale war broke out because of the Arab protests against the partition with attacks on Jewish settlements? In turn Israeli terrorist groups went to Arab towns and villages and massacred hundereds of palenstinians in their homes which led to a full scale war?
Totaly wrong. In 1948, 24 hours after Ben Gurion declared Israel's independence the Arabs declared war on Israel, when all the protests, attack, etc... happend?
You probably mean the conflict that was between the Jews and the Arabs that lived here in 1947, there were mututal attacks of gangs from both sides, it didn't lead to war.

No I meant in 1948, you must remember that until this point the Arabs and British troops had been subjected to terrorist acts by Jewish terrorist groups like "Irgun Zvai Leumi"
Now as far as declaring war on Israel, to the Arabs it's Palenstine, so they were in effect declaring war on the newly declared Jewish state of Israel(May14th) on May15th.

[Sayeret]

Afrographx


isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

Geez, man learn how to spell. Anyway to answer your question the Palestinians should try to acheive peace with Israel by somekind of political means, in other words the PA needs to talk with the Israeli government about peace. Instead of blowing up buses and teaching their children to hate Jews. BTW the PLO was formed in 1964, three years before Israel was in Gaza and the West Bank.

[Moledet]

isn't it the fundamental right of the Palestinians to defend themself. Israel fights a war against the Palestinians. They are the invasors. If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings. Of course this may be terrorist acts and fundamental violation of the geneva convention. but Israel is violating it too, in the whole way it treats the Palestinians. The way Israel fights Palestine you could label the Israeli forces terrorists too.
What the hell do all you Israeli fanatics expect of the Palestinians, to continue suffering in the unaccaptable lifing conditions created by Israel?

We didn't build those camps, Egypt and Jordan built them, the whole conflict was made because of the Arabs. They told the "Palestinians" to leave their houses in 1948, if they would have never told them to do it they would have now been Israel's citizens.

Why were they told to leave and why do you say the whole conflict was created by the Arabs?
Also why would they now be Israeli citizens wouldn't they be Palestinians?
The Arabs in 1948 told the leaders of the Arabian population in former Palestine that they gonna bomb all the cities in Israel and whoever will stay will probably get killed. They told them to leave until they will slaughter all the Jews and then they will be able to return. We won the war against the Arabian countries and the Arabs that left got stuck in the Arabian countries. We didn't want them to get back because they betrayed the country and cooporated with the enemy and they didn't even care that the plan was to kill all the Jews in Israel.
The Arabs that stayed are Israel's citizens (200,000 Arabs stayed in Israel in 1948), they enjoy full rights like every Israeli and some benefits that Jewish not orthodox Israelis don't have.

I thought a full scale war broke out because of the Arab protests against the partition with attacks on Jewish settlements? In turn Israeli terrorist groups went to Arab towns and villages and massacred hundereds of palenstinians in their homes which led to a full scale war?
Totaly wrong. In 1948, 24 hours after Ben Gurion declared Israel's independence the Arabs declared war on Israel, when all the protests, attack, etc... happend?
You probably mean the conflict that was between the Jews and the Arabs that lived here in 1947, there were mututal attacks of gangs from both sides, it didn't lead to war.

No I meant in 1948, you must remember that until this point the Arabs and British troops had been subjected to terrorist acts by Jewish terrorist groups like "Irgun Zvai Leumi"
Now as far as declaring war on Israel, to the Arabs it's Palenstine, so they were in effect declaring war on the newly declared Jewish state of Israel(May14th) on May15th.
Until 1948 Jewish and Arbian gangs fought eachother.
Too bad that you have heard only about Jewish gangs, because there were also arabian gangs, they had a force of about 6,000 people that fought the Jewish gangs and they attacked Jewish transoprtation, Jewish homes (there were battles in Jerusalem), Jewish vilages and entertainment places like, the cinema in Jerusalem that was burnt by them.
At the start the "Hagana" organization didn't attack them, it only protected the cities and tried to make the alliance with Britain stronger. The Hagana also built fences around Jewish vilages and it've put armor were the truck/bus driver was sitting.
After a while the Hagana decided to stop the restraint because the Arab's attacks became more violent. So they ambushed attackers outside of the vilage fence and they also attacked vilages that helped the arabian gangs.
The HETZEL which didn't see himself as part of the Jewish administration made terror attacks against the Arabian population after every attack that the Arabs did, in other words, they revenged for deaths ("blood for blood").
The Hagana was an iliegal organization. Even though, many Hagana members were drafted to the British forces that armed them with weapons. The brits knew that they arm their friends but they ingored these actions. Charles Wingate (british officer) cooporated with the Hagana. He funded the "Night brigade" that were trained to attack Arabian gangs at night time. They made the arabian gangs withdraw from the north of Israel. In addiiton these gangs protected the oil pipe that came from Iraq, it was attacked many times at night time.
The Hagana also built a fence between north of Israel and the arabian neighbours to stop the weapon smugglers and armed gangs that came from the arabian coutries.
Half a year after the Arabian rebellion started they decided to stop the economic strike and then there was the Lord phill committee that said that there need to be 2 states in Palestine. The Arabs got mad on the decission of the Brits and they murdered the british Galil ruler. The attacks against Israeli transoprtation became more violent and in some places the Brits had to guard the Jewish transportation.
Because of these attacks the Brits declared that the Arabian committee (an organization that controled the arabs in former Palestine and was against the british patrition plan) is an illiegal organization and the Brits arrested almost of it members (except of one that fled to a neighbour arabian country) after he (Haj Amin El Husseini) fled the Arabian rebellion stopped and they started "brothers" wars, conflicts between Arabian political groups, there were more internal murders and the economic situation of the Arabs got worse because of the long strike.
Then the Brits did another committee (woodhead) but they got to redicolous decissions so the Brits decided to make another committee between the Jews and the Arabs but the Arabs refused to talk with the Jews so the cimmittee failed. So the Brits wrote a new white book, in that book the brits decided that only 75,000 Jewish immigrants will come to Israel in the next 5 years (1939-1944), the Hagana didn't agree and they started to bring illiegal immigrants to former Palestine. At the time of WW2 the irgun ("Irgun Leheirut Israel") was funded and it attcked the Brits because by it ideology they were the enemy of Zionism.
Because of the poor economic condition of the Arabs they couldn't declare a country in 1948 like the Jewish population did.
You can read more about the operations of the Jews just before May 14th, 1948, here:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&srch=&id=5&clr=1

I guess that I have spelling mistakes because I wrote a lot, I hope that you'll understand everything.

[big80a2]

If I would be a Palestinian I would be a 'little bit angry' about that, too. the men shooting at the Israelis, who are trying to destroy those tunnels are simply defending Palestine. As well as those who blow themself up and kill innocent Israelis. they don't have any other possibilty to resist against the Israeli aggression, than to do suicide-bombings.
:D

should jews have to blow up busses in WW2 because they could not resist by other meens?

they have loads of possibility's but they wan't to kill as many jews (also arab israeli's at times) as they can.
IMO hizbolla fight israel but fight the army (more) while you and me can surly say the IDf is way bigger don't we?
So your statement is noncence.

And what is fighting for your homeland if you mission is to kill and destroy all jews/all of israel.....

Osama jused suicide terrorist attacks.................was he so desperate?? He could easily live in a big nice house in his quite place some where in a green oase in Saudi arabia....

maybe this Idee of your comes from the way Jappanse jused suicide as some sort of despirite move... but hey after all waren't they loyal to the empire??.......hmmmz

and if these suicide bombers in Israel fight for the good cause.... why should they be rewarded with 72 virgins?? isn't the thought of fighting the good cause for you motherland good enough?? or must they have a morale boost because they are out on something else....

If I would die for my country..... the army won't say I'll get 72 virigins??
maybe a nice flag on the coffin and a little gun barage but hey keep those 10 bullits not worth dieing for...........

[Geezah]

Until 1948 Jewish and Arbian gangs fought eachother.
Too bad that you have heard only about Jewish gangs, because there were also arabian gangs, they had a force of about 6,000 people that fought the Jewish gangs and they attacked Jewish transoprtation, Jewish homes (there were battles in Jerusalem), Jewish vilages and entertainment places like, the cinema in Jerusalem that was burnt by them.
At the start the "Hagana" organization didn't attack them, it only protected the cities and tried to make the alliance with Britain stronger. The Hagana also built fences around Jewish vilages and it've put armor were the truck/bus driver was sitting.
After a while the Hagana decided to stop the restraint because the Arab's attacks became more violent. So they ambushed attackers outside of the vilage fence and they also attacked vilages that helped the arabian gangs.
The HETZEL which didn't see himself as part of the Jewish administration made terror attacks against the Arabian population after every attack that the Arabs did, in other words, they revenged for deaths ("blood for blood").
The Hagana was an iliegal organization. Even though, many Hagana members were drafted to the British forces that armed them with weapons. The brits knew that they arm their friends but they ingored these actions. Charles Wingate (british officer) cooporated with the Hagana. He funded the "Night brigade" that were trained to attack Arabian gangs at night time. They made the arabian gangs withdraw from the north of Israel. In addiiton these gangs protected the oil pipe that came from Iraq, it was attacked many times at night time.
The Hagana also built a fence between north of Israel and the arabian neighbours to stop the weapon smugglers and armed gangs that came from the arabian coutries.
Half a year after the Arabian rebellion started they decided to stop the economic strike and then there was the Lord phill committee that said that there need to be 2 states in Palestine. The Arabs got mad on the decission of the Brits and they murdered the british Galil ruler. The attacks against Israeli transoprtation became more violent and in some places the Brits had to guard the Jewish transportation.
Because of these attacks the Brits declared that the Arabian committee (an organization that controled the arabs in former Palestine and was against the british patrition plan) is an illiegal organization and the Brits arrested almost of it members (except of one that fled to a neighbour arabian country) after he (Haj Amin El Husseini) fled the Arabian rebellion stopped and they started "brothers" wars, conflicts between Arabian political groups, there were more internal murders and the economic situation of the Arabs got worse because of the long strike.
Then the Brits did another committee (woodhead) but they got to redicolous decissions so the Brits decided to make another committee between the Jews and the Arabs but the Arabs refused to talk with the Jews so the cimmittee failed. So the Brits wrote a new white book, in that book the brits decided that only 75,000 Jewish immigrants will come to Israel in the next 5 years (1939-1944), the Hagana didn't agree and they started to bring illiegal immigrants to former Palestine. At the time of WW2 the irgun ("Irgun Leheirut Israel") was funded and it attcked the Brits because by it ideology they were the enemy of Zionism.
Because of the poor economic condition of the Arabs they couldn't declare a country in 1948 like the Jewish population did.
You can read more about the operations of the Jews just before May 14th, 1948, here:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&srch=&id=5&clr=1

I guess that I have spelling mistakes because I wrote a lot, I hope that you'll understand everything.

I checked out the history section and it mentions nothing of Theodore Herzl or the World Zionist Organization, pre 1948?
Also I checked out the section on "Major Palestinian Terrorist Attacks Since September 2000" it's terrible what's happened but it mentions nothing of the Palenstinian civilians that have been injured or killed during this time?

[Moledet]

Until 1948 Jewish and Arbian gangs fought eachother.
Too bad that you have heard only about Jewish gangs, because there were also arabian gangs, they had a force of about 6,000 people that fought the Jewish gangs and they attacked Jewish transoprtation, Jewish homes (there were battles in Jerusalem), Jewish vilages and entertainment places like, the cinema in Jerusalem that was burnt by them.
At the start the "Hagana" organization didn't attack them, it only protected the cities and tried to make the alliance with Britain stronger. The Hagana also built fences around Jewish vilages and it've put armor were the truck/bus driver was sitting.
After a while the Hagana decided to stop the restraint because the Arab's attacks became more violent. So they ambushed attackers outside of the vilage fence and they also attacked vilages that helped the arabian gangs.
The HETZEL which didn't see himself as part of the Jewish administration made terror attacks against the Arabian population after every attack that the Arabs did, in other words, they revenged for deaths ("blood for blood").
The Hagana was an iliegal organization. Even though, many Hagana members were drafted to the British forces that armed them with weapons. The brits knew that they arm their friends but they ingored these actions. Charles Wingate (british officer) cooporated with the Hagana. He funded the "Night brigade" that were trained to attack Arabian gangs at night time. They made the arabian gangs withdraw from the north of Israel. In addiiton these gangs protected the oil pipe that came from Iraq, it was attacked many times at night time.
The Hagana also built a fence between north of Israel and the arabian neighbours to stop the weapon smugglers and armed gangs that came from the arabian coutries.
Half a year after the Arabian rebellion started they decided to stop the economic strike and then there was the Lord phill committee that said that there need to be 2 states in Palestine. The Arabs got mad on the decission of the Brits and they murdered the british Galil ruler. The attacks against Israeli transoprtation became more violent and in some places the Brits had to guard the Jewish transportation.
Because of these attacks the Brits declared that the Arabian committee (an organization that controled the arabs in former Palestine and was against the british patrition plan) is an illiegal organization and the Brits arrested almost of it members (except of one that fled to a neighbour arabian country) after he (Haj Amin El Husseini) fled the Arabian rebellion stopped and they started "brothers" wars, conflicts between Arabian political groups, there were more internal murders and the economic situation of the Arabs got worse because of the long strike.
Then the Brits did another committee (woodhead) but they got to redicolous decissions so the Brits decided to make another committee between the Jews and the Arabs but the Arabs refused to talk with the Jews so the cimmittee failed. So the Brits wrote a new white book, in that book the brits decided that only 75,000 Jewish immigrants will come to Israel in the next 5 years (1939-1944), the Hagana didn't agree and they started to bring illiegal immigrants to former Palestine. At the time of WW2 the irgun ("Irgun Leheirut Israel") was funded and it attcked the Brits because by it ideology they were the enemy of Zionism.
Because of the poor economic condition of the Arabs they couldn't declare a country in 1948 like the Jewish population did.
You can read more about the operations of the Jews just before May 14th, 1948, here:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&srch=&id=5&clr=1

I guess that I have spelling mistakes because I wrote a lot, I hope that you'll understand everything.

I checked out the history section and it mentions nothing of Theodore Herzl or the World Zionist Organization, pre 1948?
Also I checked out the section on "Major Palestinian Terrorist Attacks Since September 2000" it's terrible what's happened but it mentions nothing of the Palenstinian civilians that have been injured or killed during this time?
There's nothing about him because it shows only the operations that built the IDF and led to the foundation of Israel.
It mentions nothing about the daeths of Palestinians because usualy Palestinian civilians don't die in Palestninian terror attacks.

[One?]

the point is very simple. Israel is displacing the palestinians in rafah. I don't see how destroying hundreds of home is in accordance with the human rights. I bet if that happened to israelis WW3 would start. I bet in 50 years Israeli would claim they "left on their own, we didnt do anything"....


@Javehn are you taking part of the mass destruction of palestinian homes in rafah? (just wondering, or you are located in the North?).

[citizen-k]

the point is very simple. Israel is displacing the palestinians in rafah. I don't see how destroying hundreds of home is in accordance with the human rights. I bet if that happened to israelis WW3 would start. I bet in 50 years Israeli would claim they "left on their own, we didnt do anything"....


@Javehn are you taking part of the mass destruction of palestinian homes in rafah? (just wondering, or you are located in the North?).

56 not "hundreds" - basic math & grammar knowledge!

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.

Destroying a house been used to transfer explosives&missiles which are used to attack civilians is not a war crime - it the IDF doing the U.N's job.

Instead of screaming "war crime war crime" please try explain to the members of this forum what made armed Palestinians shoot their own kids and blame the IDF for that?

[S'13]

I don't see how destroying hundreds of home is in accordance with the human rights.

Even the biased U.N has publicized a figure smaller than that of the IDF!

Of course they did this after putting forth figures in which the numbers were exaggerated. :cantbeli:


UNRWA: 45 houses demolished by IDF in Rafah
By JPOST.COM STAFF

According to an assessment released by UNRWA on Tuesday, 45 buildings were destroyed in Rafah during the IDF's Operation Rainbow, which started on May 18 and ended on May 23.

A total of 98 families, or 575 individuals were housed in the demolished buildings.

The United Nations Relief and Works Agency reported that the month of May has been one of the worst months of the intifada for Rafah residents. From May 1 until May 23, a total of 155 buildings, housing 360 families or 1960 individuals, have been demolished in Rafah.

The UNRWA figures show that fewer houses were demolished than previously published by the IDF.

In his assessment of the scale of house demolitions in Rafah, Gaza Division commander Brig.-Gen. Shmuel Zakai said Monday that a total of 56 homes were destroyed either by weapons fire, bulldozers, or by troops who broke through them to make their way through the city instead of navigating the city's ****y-trapped alleyways.

with Matthew Gutman

[Geezah]

Until 1948 Jewish and Arbian gangs fought eachother.
Too bad that you have heard only about Jewish gangs, because there were also arabian gangs, they had a force of about 6,000 people that fought the Jewish gangs and they attacked Jewish transoprtation, Jewish homes (there were battles in Jerusalem), Jewish vilages and entertainment places like, the cinema in Jerusalem that was burnt by them.
At the start the "Hagana" organization didn't attack them, it only protected the cities and tried to make the alliance with Britain stronger. The Hagana also built fences around Jewish vilages and it've put armor were the truck/bus driver was sitting.
After a while the Hagana decided to stop the restraint because the Arab's attacks became more violent. So they ambushed attackers outside of the vilage fence and they also attacked vilages that helped the arabian gangs.
The HETZEL which didn't see himself as part of the Jewish administration made terror attacks against the Arabian population after every attack that the Arabs did, in other words, they revenged for deaths ("blood for blood").
The Hagana was an iliegal organization. Even though, many Hagana members were drafted to the British forces that armed them with weapons. The brits knew that they arm their friends but they ingored these actions. Charles Wingate (british officer) cooporated with the Hagana. He funded the "Night brigade" that were trained to attack Arabian gangs at night time. They made the arabian gangs withdraw from the north of Israel. In addiiton these gangs protected the oil pipe that came from Iraq, it was attacked many times at night time.
The Hagana also built a fence between north of Israel and the arabian neighbours to stop the weapon smugglers and armed gangs that came from the arabian coutries.
Half a year after the Arabian rebellion started they decided to stop the economic strike and then there was the Lord phill committee that said that there need to be 2 states in Palestine. The Arabs got mad on the decission of the Brits and they murdered the british Galil ruler. The attacks against Israeli transoprtation became more violent and in some places the Brits had to guard the Jewish transportation.
Because of these attacks the Brits declared that the Arabian committee (an organization that controled the arabs in former Palestine and was against the british patrition plan) is an illiegal organization and the Brits arrested almost of it members (except of one that fled to a neighbour arabian country) after he (Haj Amin El Husseini) fled the Arabian rebellion stopped and they started "brothers" wars, conflicts between Arabian political groups, there were more internal murders and the economic situation of the Arabs got worse because of the long strike.
Then the Brits did another committee (woodhead) but they got to redicolous decissions so the Brits decided to make another committee between the Jews and the Arabs but the Arabs refused to talk with the Jews so the cimmittee failed. So the Brits wrote a new white book, in that book the brits decided that only 75,000 Jewish immigrants will come to Israel in the next 5 years (1939-1944), the Hagana didn't agree and they started to bring illiegal immigrants to former Palestine. At the time of WW2 the irgun ("Irgun Leheirut Israel") was funded and it attcked the Brits because by it ideology they were the enemy of Zionism.
Because of the poor economic condition of the Arabs they couldn't declare a country in 1948 like the Jewish population did.
You can read more about the operations of the Jews just before May 14th, 1948, here:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&srch=&id=5&clr=1

I guess that I have spelling mistakes because I wrote a lot, I hope that you'll understand everything.

I checked out the history section and it mentions nothing of Theodore Herzl or the World Zionist Organization, pre 1948?
Also I checked out the section on "Major Palestinian Terrorist Attacks Since September 2000" it's terrible what's happened but it mentions nothing of the Palenstinian civilians that have been injured or killed during this time?
There's nothing about him because it shows only the operations that built the IDF and led to the foundation of Israel.
It mentions nothing about the daeths of Palestinians because usualy Palestinian civilians don't die in Palestninian terror attacks.

I'm suprised, because he's almost like the founding Father of Zionism? also it was his idea that set the balls rolling for all Jews to go back to Israel(not Argentina) and take over?
The Jews then didn't really have any claim on Israel, due to the fact that the Jews of then and today are not the Jews of 2000yrs ago, with the scattering of the tribes and intermingling with other populations there are no true blood Jews anymore? I would say it's near impossible for any Jewish family to trace their genealogy back 15 generations, so the claim on the land of Palenstine is religious(?)

As far as listing the Palestinians that have died why do they not mention the following,
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040521/capt.sge.siy26.210504150429.photo00.default-384x270.jpg
A Palestinian boy is carried into a hospital after Israeli troops fired a missile on protesters gathered in Rafah. The Israeli army said it fired earlier this week on Palestinian protesters in Rafah -- shots that claimed 10 lives -- to protect a secret special unit from being cut off from the main contingent.

What's the difference? Israeli forces fire a missle into a crowd, a suicide bomber blows themself up in a crowd?
The more and more I've been thinking about this the Palestinians are fighting the only way they can and while I do not support the death of innocent civilians on both sides, I sort of understand why the Palestinians do what they do.


Israel says it fired on Rafah demo to protect special forces

JERUSALEM (AFP) - The Israeli army said it fired earlier this week on Palestinian protesters in Rafah -- shots that claimed 10 lives -- to protect a secret special unit from being cut off from the main contingent.


The army feared Friday that Palestinian militants would try to use the hundreds of demonstrators advancing into the sector where the special unit was deployed to surround it, Brigadier General Shmuel Zakai told a press conference.


"The danger stemmed from the fact that armed militants were part of the cortege," said Zakai, commander of Israeli forces operating in the Gaza Strip (news - web sites).


"If they crossed a certain line, we would have been faced with a situation in which some of our forces operating secretly would have been cut off."


On Wednesday, 10 Palestinians, mainly children, were killed and 50 others injured when Israeli troops with tanks backed by a helicopter fired on a protest against their deadly "Operation Rainbow" in Rafah.


The incident sparked a barrage of international indignation and the passage of a UN Security Council resolution criticizing Israel. The United States abstained from the UN vote, rather than using its veto power.


Zakai also said that 50 armed Palestinian militants had been arrested in Rafah since the start of the operation, aimed at rounding up wanted suspects and ending the weapons trade across the border with Egypt.


The general said only five houses used to shelter snipers had thus far been destroyed in the ongoing operation. Residents and witnesses say dozens of homes have been demolished.


On Wednesday, the Israeli army said one missile was fired in an open area as a warning to the Rafah protesters to stop their march.


Four tank shells and automatic weapons fire then ensued as the initial missile fired "did not deter the crowd", according to an army statement.


"We regret the loss of innocent life and are offering to treat those who are injured in our hospitals," army spokeswoman General Ruth Yaron said at the time.

[Geezah]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?

[cut]

Palestinian society is ****ed up, they celebrate everytime one of their own is killed and won't let the women weep when they bury these 'matyrs'.

But the difference between the European and the american view is that in Europe if a someone who is mad murders then put in a mental institution and if they get better they're put in jail, whereas in the states nutters can be executed and no-one thinks it wrong.

[Geezah]

But the difference between the European and the american view is that in Europe if a someone who is mad murders then put in a mental institution and if they get better they're put in jail, whereas in the states nutters can be executed and no-one thinks it wrong.

*I think*, if it's proven without a doubt that the said perp is completely nuts they then would be commited not executed, then is they were to get better then they would be released.
Now in the UK if your nuts and done something real bad, you're pretty much locked up and the key thrown away, Ian Brady, one of the Kray Twins?
Again I'm not an expert on this.

[S'13]

I'm suprised, because he's almost like the founding Father of Zionism?

Theodor (Binyamin Ze’ev) Herzl was the visionary of Zionism and the founder of modern political Zionism.

The reason that you wouldn't find anything about him in that site (as Moledet had already explained) is because it speaks of Israel's military history.


also it was his idea that set the balls rolling for all Jews to go back to Israel(not Argentina) and take over?

I don't understand what you mean by "take over", the goal of Zionism was to build a Jewish homeland in the land of Israel with international consent.


The Jews then didn't really have any claim on Israel, due to the fact that the Jews of then and today are not the Jews of 2000yrs ago, with the scattering of the tribes and intermingling with other populations there are no true blood Jews anymore? I would say it's near impossible for any Jewish family to trace their genealogy back 15 generations, so the claim on the land of Palenstine is religious

The Jewish people had preserved their heritage and the longing to return to Zion and that's their "claim".
As for the intermingling, well most Jews did not intermingle and even if there was intermingling (as long as the Jews didn't assimilate) it didn't change the fact the Jews are a nation with a common culture, a common language and a common heritage.
And as all nations they had a right to return to the land which is thier spiritual and historical homeland.


What's the difference? Israeli forces fire a missle into a crowd, a suicide bomber blows themself up in a crowd?

I don't remember a cse in which the IDF fired a missile into a crowd, if your reffering to last week's incident then I must inform you that in that incident no missiles were fired on the crowd so should it least get that right.

A crowd of people made up of armed gunmen and unarmed civilians were approaching our forces, in order to insure the safety of our troops and to prevent a gun battle in which many civilians would have got killed in our forces used certain mthods in order to the deter the crowd.
First an IAF helecopter fired a missile into an open area (not into the crowd as you put it) and then after this didn't not help to deter the crowd, IDF tanks fired four shells into an abandoned building. Sadly one of the explodind shells had accidentally harmed the crowd and killed 10 people (including civilians and gunmen). It is also suggested that the abandoned building was ****y-trapped with explosive charges and that's why the explosion was so lethal.

However ,unlike suicied bombings carried out by Palestinian terrorists, the incident was an accident.



The more and more I've been thinking about this the Palestinians are fighting the only way they can and while I do not support the death of innocent civilians on both sides, I sort of understand why the Palestinians do what they do.

You don't seem to understand that the Palestinians have the ability to attack military targets, however they choose to target civilians.

[S'13]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?

The route used by advancing troops operating in that part of Rafah was rigged with explosives and in order to prevent endangering the lives of soldiers, while allowing them to reach their designated objectives, an alternative route was chosen.
This route passed through a petting zoo. To save the animals, soldiers released some of them from their cages.
soldiers took great risks to release as many animals as they could and denied that they had mistreated or shot them.
To set the animals free, soldiers were required to leave their armored vehicles, exposing them to sniper fire.

[Moledet]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?
The IDF said that it didn't destroy the zoo. It might have been destroyed by explosives that were put there by the terrorists, but it was not destroyed by the IDF bulldozers.

[IDFM203]

No I meant in 1948, you must remember that until this point the Arabs and British troops had been subjected to terrorist acts by Jewish terrorist groups like "Irgun Zvai Leumi" the only thing truthful in full context in this statement is you linking the Brits and the Arabs together for indeed that land under Britsh rule, where both Jews and Arabs lived in, it was the Jews there that were subjugated many times by attacks from Arabs gangs or terrorists groups with the encouragement of the British rulers or if not out right encouragement, a blind eye to what was happening against the Jews.

Secondly those Jewish defense groups most of the times only targeted military instillations, unlike the Arabs group that a lot of times only targeted civilians.

The few occasions that Irgun did do some wrong things, they did warn civilians to get out first but even if not, the point is that at the time MOST Jews were against those Jewish groups and it was not supported by most (again unlike the Arab terrorists groups that were supported by most Arabs).


I would say it's near impossible for any Jewish family to trace their genealogy back 15 generations, so the claim on the land of Palenstine is religious(?) First of all there were Jews in Jerusalem that I believe that could trace back generations.

Secondly from the late 1800’s till 1948 many Jews came to what Israel was then very not populated at all, except for a few cities, and BOUGHT large chunks of land.

Thirdly while we Jews do have a biblical claim, most of us are secular, Israel is a secular Jewish state and I would say most of our claims to Israel is much more based on modern relevant history, and the fact that Jews came, bought land or just immigrated under British rule (Though with huge quotas for tons of Jews were not allowed in and were sent to concentration camps in Cyprus or even during ww2 were sent back to their deaths to Nazi Germany.......oh and I don’t believe Arab immigration had any quotas) and then the Arabs rejected to live in coexistence (the UN lines outlined for the Arabs most of the good habited land, while the Jews got most of the uninhabited land, like the huge chunk of the negev desert) and then after the Brits ended their rule over both people, 7 Arab nations invaded to attack to annihilate every single Jew, they lost…..all that’s our claim.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?no its not about thinking right, its just that we understand fully the context of where that zoo was located and in a war zone where there is shooting from all sides, ****y trapped roads and mines laden everywhere, well its sad what happened but I just don’t see the IDF destroying a zoo just for the heck of it (or for your original absurd reasons :roll: )

Secondly we are kind of numb to you crocodile tears and “outcry” about this zoo , when we basically don’t ever hear a peep or the same "outcry" when our humans die :roll:

Here I repeat a post of mine.

Again that zoo was in a war zone, where usually they fire from there, they set up ****y traps and whatnot, anyways I wasn’t there but I don’t think the IDF destroyed a zoo just for the heck of it.

This whole huge international outcry over the zoo reminds me of when Sharon was interviewed on TV about two years ago when the IDF first surrounded Arafat’s compound because its clear that he is orchestrating and supporting a lot of the terror against our civilians, and he was stuck in there, so wolf blitser asked him how are we treating Arafat and things like that, so Sharon answered, you know since we surrounded arafat in the compound, I have been getting constant and angry calls from every leader in Europe, Asia, parts of the middle east and they all want to know how he’s doing, and they ask for little details like does he have enough batteries in his flashlight or enough toilet paper, but after a suicide bombing where 20 of our man women and children are slaughtered, their limbs everywhere, the injured, which is much more, have very debilitating injuries, I never get a call asking how they are, asking if they are going to live etc..

So please spare me the crocodile tears over this zoo as if this should warrant the excessive outcry, when most are silent when our humans are killed :roll:

Shalom

[Geezah]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?

The route used by advancing troops operating in that part of Rafah was rigged with explosives and in order to prevent endangering the lives of soldiers, while allowing them to reach their designated objectives, an alternative route was chosen.
This route passed through a petting zoo. To save the animals, soldiers released some of them from their cages.
soldiers took great risks to release as many animals as they could and denied that they had mistreated or shot them.
To set the animals free, soldiers were required to leave their armored vehicles, exposing them to sniper fire.





Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?
The IDF said that it didn't destroy the zoo. It might have been destroyed by explosives that were put there by the terrorists, but it was not destroyed by the IDF bulldozers.


It would be nice if you guys could get your stories straight before you reply. So who's right?

[Geezah]

But the difference between the European and the american view is that in Europe if a someone who is mad murders then put in a mental institution and if they get better they're put in jail, whereas in the states nutters can be executed and no-one thinks it wrong.

*I think*, if it's proven without a doubt that the said perp is completely nuts they then would be commited not executed, then is they were to get better then they would be released.
Now in the UK if your nuts and done something real bad, you're pretty much locked up and the key thrown away, Ian Brady, one of the Kray Twins?
Again I'm not an expert on this.

I'm checking with a guy here that's currently in law school, he said it's extremely hard to prove your nuts but he passed the question onto a lawyer friend of his and I'll let you know what we find out.

[S'13]

It would be nice if you guys could get your stories straight before you reply. So who's right?

Funny that you should say that we need to get our stories straigt after writing that Israeli forces "fired a missile into a crowd" a fictional claim which was refuted long ago...



IDF blamed for ruining Gaza zoo

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1085281782242&p=1078397702269

By MARGOT DUDKEVITCH AND MATTHEW GUTMAN

The zoo in Rafah's Brazil neighborhood was overrun by the IDF on Friday.

Pictures of the carcasses of a mangled goat, chickens, and a peacock were only some of the photos broadcast around the world.

A donkey, a kangaroo, and some parrots were among the survivors of the zoo in Rafah's Brazil neighborhood that was overrun by the IDF on Friday.

The footage generated harsh criticism, adding more fuel to the mounting condemnation of Operation Rainbow in the Gaza Strip.

Muhammad Juma, who ran the zoo, told AP that the animals had either escaped or were dead.

"This is all part of the army's planned destruction of Rafah, its buildings, its people, and even its animals," he said, accusing soldiers of deliberately killing the animals or setting them free.

A statement released by the IDF Spokesman said: "The route used by advancing troops operating in Brazil was rigged with explosives. "To prevent endangering the lives of soldiers, while allowing them to reach their designated objectives, an alternative route was chosen.

"This route passed through a petting zoo. To save the animals, soldiers released some of the animals from their cages."

IDF sources said the soldiers took great risks to release as many animals as they could and denied that they had mistreated or shot them.

The sources said that, to set the animals free, soldiers were required to leave their armored vehicles, exposing them to sniper fire.

Juma said a leopard, 55 parrots, snakes, raccoons, and a monkey are still missing and declared that the IDF had targeted the zoo deliberately.

"It was clearly marked with signs and banners," he said.

[Geezah]

No I meant in 1948, you must remember that until this point the Arabs and British troops had been subjected to terrorist acts by Jewish terrorist groups like "Irgun Zvai Leumi" the only thing truthful in full context in this statement is you linking the Brits and the Arabs together for indeed that land under Britsh rule, where both Jews and Arabs lived in, it was the Jews there that were subjugated many times by attacks from Arabs gangs or terrorists groups with the encouragement of the British rulers or if not out right encouragement, a blind eye to what was happening against the Jews.

Well, it was my understanding that the British supported the Arabs because of their support against the Turks during WW1?
Also when you say Arabs and Jews lived there at that time, there were only about 85,000 Jews by 1914.



Secondly those Jewish defense groups most of the times only targeted military instillations, unlike the Arabs group that a lot of times only targeted civilians.

The few occasions that Irgun did do some wrong things, they did warn civilians to get out first but even if not, the point is that at the time MOST Jews were against those Jewish groups and it was not supported by most (again unlike the Arab terrorists groups that were supported by most Arabs).

Now, I was under the impression that there were intermitent attacks by Arabs on Jewish settlements because they were scared that outsiders were going to take over THEIR Country.
So from what you're telling me is that the Jews at no point were targeting Arab civilians (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/marines.htm) in Palestine?






I would say it's near impossible for any Jewish family to trace their genealogy back 15 generations, so the claim on the land of Palenstine is religious(?) First of all there were Jews in Jerusalem that I believe that could trace back generations.

You mean 12,000 Jews up until that point? and anyway you telling me that there are some Jewish families that could go back 15 genrations? that I find hard to believe.



Secondly from the late 1800’s till 1948 many Jews came to what Israel was then very not populated at all, except for a few cities, and BOUGHT large chunks of land.


Thirdly while we Jews do have a biblical claim, most of us are secular, Israel is a secular Jewish state and I would say most of our claims to Israel is much more based on modern relevant history, and the fact that Jews came, bought land or just immigrated under British rule (Though with huge quotas for tons of Jews were not allowed in

Seeing as the majority don't claim any religious claim on Palenstine wouldn't it had been easier to migrate to Argentina instead? The thing that you're missing is the fact it may have been your Grandfather or Great Grandfather that was a visitor in the Arabs land?



and were sent to concentration camps in Cyprus or even during ww2 were sent back to their deaths to Nazi Germany.......oh and I don’t believe Arab immigration had any quotas) and then the Arabs rejected to live in coexistence (the UN lines outlined for the Arabs most of the good habited land, while the Jews got most of the uninhabited land, like the huge chunk of the negev desert) and then after the Brits ended their rule over both people, 7 Arab nations invaded to attack to annihilate every single Jew, they lost…..all that’s our claim.

Again I don't remeber seeing anything about a mas exodus of Arabs moving into Palenstine?




And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?no its not about thinking right, its just that we understand fully the context of where that zoo was located and in a war zone where there is shooting from all sides, ****y trapped roads and mines laden everywhere, well its sad what happened but I just don’t see the IDF destroying a zoo just for the heck of it (or for your original absurd reasons :roll: )

Secondly we are kind of numb to you crocodile tears and “outcry” about this zoo , when we basically don’t ever hear a peep or the same "outcry" when our humans die :roll:

Crocodile tears? I don't like the fact that innocents are dieing period, but when the IDF kills innocents, they give their version of the story and when the Palestinians kill innocents the Israeli's give their version of the story.......problem here is theres one side screaming out their version of the story discrediting anyone else as a terrorist and if you tell someone something enough times they start to believe it!






Here I repeat a post of mine.

Again that zoo was in a war zone, where usually they fire from there, they set up ****y traps and whatnot, anyways I wasn’t there but I don’t think the IDF destroyed a zoo just for the heck of it.

So please spare me the crocodile tears over this zoo as if this should warrant the excessive outcry, when most are silent when our humans are killed :roll:

Shalom

The Zoo was in a warzone that the IDF created, I still haven't seen anything that says the Zoo was on top of a tunnel?
You know what's wrong with your last statement, you said "OUR HUMANS" so you mean that only Israeli innocents deserve to live?

[big80a2]

The Zoo was in a warzone that the IDF created, I still haven't seen anything that says the Zoo was on top of a tunnel?
You know what's wrong with your last statement, you said "OUR HUMANS" so you mean that only Israeli innocents deserve to live?

He means that when everybody is mad and spilling over about this Zoo thing,
They are often silent when israeli HUMANS (the context.... ) die.

see don't you think people should be treaten first before animals....

that's why I won't give money to greenpeace but to unicef....

[Geezah]

The Zoo was in a warzone that the IDF created, I still haven't seen anything that says the Zoo was on top of a tunnel?
You know what's wrong with your last statement, you said "OUR HUMANS" so you mean that only Israeli innocents deserve to live?

They are often silent when israeli HUMANS (the context.... ) die.

see don't you think people should be treaten first before animals....


I understand what he was saying, but from his last statment when he referenced "OUR HUMANS" I got the impression that Israelis only have a right to live?

[AirZone]

The Zoo was in a warzone that the IDF created, I still haven't seen anything that says the Zoo was on top of a tunnel?
You know what's wrong with your last statement, you said "OUR HUMANS" so you mean that only Israeli innocents deserve to live?

They are often silent when israeli HUMANS (the context.... ) die.

see don't you think people should be treaten first before animals....


I understand what he was saying, but from his last statment when he referenced "OUR HUMANS" I got the impression that Israelis only have a right to live? Strange you are the only one :roll: OUR HUMANS means the Israeli's...his people (more or less ;))

[citizen-k]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a ****en war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

[Geezah]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!

[Moledet]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!
Jewish terrorists were a small minority and they mostly attacked combatants and British soldiers.
The "Palestinians" terrorists are not a minority and they mostly attack civilians.
The Zionists goal was to build a country. The "Palestinians" goal is to destroy Israel totaly.
The Zionists did not fight like cowards by sending the children to the front line, they did commando operations. The Palestinians are using kids to make terror attacks, as a human shield, build tunnels (that often collapse on them), to transfer weapons/explosives (even in school bags) and as a propoganda tool (killing children and blaming the IDF).
The Zionists did not use civilian homes as protection and they didn't ****ytrap the streets where they and other civilians lived. The Palestinians are puting ****ytraps everywhere, under the pavement, under the roads, inside civilian homes, on the walls of houses and inside water tunnels.
The Zionists protected the population that was attacked by Arabian gangs that their purpose was to kill Jews. The Palestinians are not protecting the civilians, infact they are puting them under greater danger, they often use them as hostages (in Jenin IDF soldiers found civilians tied to chairs), they make them suffer by using there houses as a compound, and then the IDF destroys it.
That's mainly what I know about the Zionists and the Palestinians, I'm sure that there are other people that can make a better comparisation.

[Bootneck]

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!

While you're reading you might want to look into the fact that the Irgun's activities were roundly condemned by the mainstream and actions were taken to stop them.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/season.html

In contrast, according to recent polls, terrorism is supported by the Palestinian people and is being actively encouraged, if not directed, by their leadership (on May 15th Arafat closed a televised speech by urging Palestinians to "find whatever strength you have to terrorize your enemy." )


--- Sorry Moledet, looks like I basically repeated what you just said. ---

[Airborneranger4israel]

i think the operation was probably worth it but i think it could have been handeled better. But i am only basing this on what i have seen in the NY times and such.

But when the tunnelles are found and destroyed i think the Israeli's will have to help rebuild many of the homes, as long as it is relatively safe and the palistineans vow not attack the people helping to rebuild the homes. I know it is wishfull thinking but i might work, i really am not sure.

Your suggestions or oppinoins on a solution once the tunnels have been destroyed would be appreciated. :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Out of interest how many of these tunnels have been found so far in this recent operation.

[Geezah]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!
Jewish terrorists were a small minority and they mostly attacked combatants and British soldiers.
The "Palestinians" terrorists are not a minority and they mostly attack civilians.
The Zionists goal was to build a country. The "Palestinians" goal is to destroy Israel totaly.
The Zionists did not fight like cowards by sending the children to the front line, they did commando operations. The Palestinians are using kids to make terror attacks, as a human shield, build tunnels (that often collapse on them), to transfer weapons/explosives (even in school bags) and as a propoganda tool (killing children and blaming the IDF).
The Zionists did not use civilian homes as protection and they didn't ****ytrap the streets where they and other civilians lived. The Palestinians are puting ****ytraps everywhere, under the pavement, under the roads, inside civilian homes, on the walls of houses and inside water tunnels.
The Zionists protected the population that was attacked by Arabian gangs that their purpose was to kill Jews. The Palestinians are not protecting the civilians, infact they are puting them under greater danger, they often use them as hostages (in Jenin IDF soldiers found civilians tied to chairs), they make them suffer by using there houses as a compound, and then the IDF destroys it.
That's mainly what I know about the Zionists and the Palestinians, I'm sure that there are other people that can make a better comparisation.

Who do I believe, you or the documented events by British soldiers, check out the following it paints a completely different story to the one you gave.

40 Commando in Haifa (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/40.html)

Introduction (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/intro.htm)

From Exodus to Independence (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Exodus.htm)

The Palestine Mandate (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Mandate.htm)

The Marines in Palestine (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/marines.htm)

The RAF in Palestine (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/raf.htm)

Standby to Board (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/rn.htm)

The Bombing of the King David Hotel (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Kingdavid.htm)This one is a must read!

Acre Jail Break (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Acre.htm)

The Kalaniots (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/6TH.htm)The Stern Gang

Kidnappings, Beatings, Murders and Hangings (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm)Again, this is a must!

Last to Leave (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/last.htm)

Operations Agatha and Shark (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/AGATHA-SHARK.htm)

A Para in Palestine (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/don.htm)

Attack on the Syrian Orphanage (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Syrian-Orphanage.html)

Just a little food for thought!

[Javehn]

http://flysee.intoski.com/flyphoto/photo_man/cn_sp_1/cnsp_59.jpg

AAAAAHHHH !!!!!! DIE !!!!!!!

[Moledet]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!
Jewish terrorists were a small minority and they mostly attacked combatants and British soldiers.
The "Palestinians" terrorists are not a minority and they mostly attack civilians.
The Zionists goal was to build a country. The "Palestinians" goal is to destroy Israel totaly.
The Zionists did not fight like cowards by sending the children to the front line, they did commando operations. The Palestinians are using kids to make terror attacks, as a human shield, build tunnels (that often collapse on them), to transfer weapons/explosives (even in school bags) and as a propoganda tool (killing children and blaming the IDF).
The Zionists did not use civilian homes as protection and they didn't ****ytrap the streets where they and other civilians lived. The Palestinians are puting ****ytraps everywhere, under the pavement, under the roads, inside civilian homes, on the walls of houses and inside water tunnels.
The Zionists protected the population that was attacked by Arabian gangs that their purpose was to kill Jews. The Palestinians are not protecting the civilians, infact they are puting them under greater danger, they often use them as hostages (in Jenin IDF soldiers found civilians tied to chairs), they make them suffer by using there houses as a compound, and then the IDF destroys it.
That's mainly what I know about the Zionists and the Palestinians, I'm sure that there are other people that can make a better comparisation.

Who do I believe, you or the documented events by British soldiers, check out the following it paints a completely different story to the one you gave.

40 Commando in Haifa (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/40.html)

Introduction (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/intro.htm)

From Exodus to Independence (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Exodus.htm)

The Palestine Mandate (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Mandate.htm)

The Marines in Palestine (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/marines.htm)

The RAF in Palestine (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/raf.htm)

Standby to Board (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/rn.htm)

The Bombing of the King David Hotel (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Kingdavid.htm)This one is a must read!

Acre Jail Break (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Acre.htm)

The Kalaniots (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/6TH.htm)The Stern Gang

Kidnappings, Beatings, Murders and Hangings (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm)Again, this is a must!

Last to Leave (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/last.htm)

Operations Agatha and Shark (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/AGATHA-SHARK.htm)

A Para in Palestine (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/don.htm)

Attack on the Syrian Orphanage (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/Syrian-Orphanage.html)

Just a little food for thought!
As I said, most of the operations were defensive (there were hundreds and not 15 operations). The IZL wasn't a part of the Jewish administration and their actions were not supported by the majority of the Jews (as I said in my post from yesterday).
Haagana was widely supported by the Jews and as far as I know they never made a terror attack.

[IDFM203]

Also when you say Arabs and Jews lived there at that time, there were only about 85,000 Jews by 1914. and how many Arabs lived there by then?

Also by 1914, 1925, 1948, whatever year you look at the bottom line is that there were Jews living there and in fact by 1914, that land wasn’t overtly habited at all by anyone for yes indeed were more Arabs there, however not astronomically more, for it’s a fact that most of the land that is now modern Israel by the 1900’s were mostly uninhabited.

Thirdly yes the Arabs were more, but that was British controlled land, and that is why after the constant attacks on Jews there, (and subsequent attacks by Jews) the Brits decided to pack up and leave and then UN drew up a line where most of the land where most of the Arabs lived were given to them and actually that was also most of the good habitable land, while the Jews got a smaller percentage and mostly uninhabited land, however the Arabs rejected any form of coexistence and instead invaded to wipe out all of the Jews, they lost, hence more of our modern claim.

Btw I would like to see your link for that 85,000..ok?

Now, I was under the impression that there were intermitent attacks by Arabs on Jewish settlements because they were scared that outsiders were going to take over THEIR Country. First of all its not their country, the land was ruled by the Birts, now if you or going to say “yes but before it was yada yada”, then trust me I can play that game as well and say before and then that too we have more of a claim then the Arabs. No the fact is that before 1948 the land was ruled by the Brits!!!

Secondly you got a wrong impression for no Jews were taking land by force, that land was ruled by the Brits and Jews there had either bought land or there were Jews that had lived on that land for years or some immigrated, but no Jews were taking land from others.

So from what you're telling me is that the Jews at no point were targeting Arab civilians (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/marines.htm) in Palestine? Boy you don’t read well, for I never said no such thing :roll:

I repeat, “The few occasions that Irgun did do some wrong things, they did warn civilians to get out first but even if not, the point is that at the time MOST Jews were against those Jewish groups and it was not supported by most (again unlike the Arab terrorists groups that were supported by most Arabs)”

So yes it happened but it was not a frequent occurrence and as such its not THE Jews but rather it was ONLY SOME Jews, for when it did happen, it was not supported by most Jews, unlike the Arabs that when for example they attacked and massacred over 100 man women and children in 1929 in Hebron (btw land which the Jews there bought and paid for) most of the Arabs supported that and also all the numerous subsequent acts committed against our civilians.
In fact "haganha" only came into being a a Jewish defense force to help defend from the numerous attacks against our civilians being that the British rulers of the land weren’t lifting that much of a finger to help safeguard the Jews there.

Seeing as the majority don't claim any religious claim on Palenstine wouldn't it had been easier to migrate to Argentina instead? The thing that you're missing is the fact it may have been your Grandfather or Great Grandfather that was a visitor in the Arabs land? what arab land? :roll: oh before and before….in that case, yes before all that it was Jewish land!!

Secondly well at the time no country wanted Jews, get it?

So indeed the secular Zionist actually did at first think of other places, hell I believe even Uganda in Africa was at one time a serious possibility, but that didn’t work out for various reasons.

Israel at the time was not very much habited and it was our biblical homeland and even though most of the Zionists weren’t religious, however it made sense to immigrate being that there were already Jews and heck if we cant be safe anywhere, might as well be unsafe there so they did go ahead and BUY land and settle there.


Again I don't remeber seeing anything about a mas exodus of Arabs moving into Palenstine? yes after ww2, more Jews decided to immigrate to British ruled Israel, and?

Secondly yes Arabs immigrated, it’s a fact between 1922 and 1947, Arab immigration increased by over 120 percent!!

And this was due to the Jews being successful in turning the land into cultivable and livable land and and it was the Jews that raised the standard of living there as a result a lot of Arabs started to immigrate from other nations to Israel, which was under British rule.



Crocodile tears? I don't like the fact that innocents are dieing period, yes me too but I don’t like the fact when I only hear outrage and “crocodile tears” over a zoo, but never hear the same tone and outrage after a homicide bombing against our civilians etc….

So yes go cry over a zoo, while ill tend to our civilians that are being slaughtered.

Secondly we don’t target innocent’s, hell if we did, there wouldn’t be a Palestinian left or surly a lot more then the total of 3000 in the last four years of fighting (a figure lower btw then in just a few months that the U.S. and the Brits have killed in Iraq).

They mostly ONLY target our civilians, that a big differnce!!!


The Zoo was in a warzone that the IDF created, I still haven't seen anything that says the Zoo was on top of a tunnel? you might like owning firarms (as do I) but this statement here bellies the fact that you were never a soldier….I mean you obviously have no concept of what a war zone is or how ****y trapped roads are everywhere, how snipers shoot everywhere, just to defend that one tunnel, where ever it may be in that warzone. Other then that, I will leave you with your ignorance on THIS matter Of what a warZONE is).


You know what's wrong with your last statement, you said "OUR HUMANS" so you mean that only Israeli innocents deserve to live? :cantbeli: :roll: ok so now you are digging for starwman arguments and putting words into my mouth…pretty pathetic :roll:

No you cried and moaned about the poor zoo, while I made a point that I hear nothing but silence when our humans die, now nowhere in my point did I limit the ones right to live to only us.

But of course you need to form words in my mouth so you can continue on with your preconceived and false fallacies about our views and positions :roll:


As for your last links that basically all go to the same website, Like I said before, we did have some groups that at times did some wrong things, hwoever most of the times they were not doing those things and they were ONLY targeting military targets or defending against Arab attacks.

Secondly and more importantly, those were a minority and in fact MOST Jews at the time openly rejected them.

I suggest you read about haganah and lthier relations with irgun or others like them and you will clearly see how haganah was very strong in its opposition with what some of them were doing as were most Israelis at the time.

Anyways let me end off with some food for thought of my own.

the Brits actions against the Jews in the land before 1948 (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html)

Click here for details on Irgun (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/irguntoc.html) (this link address a lot of your links on Irguns actions)

Shalom :D

[One?]

IDFm203 good thing you are still posting. I stopped reading this POS thread after the second post :)

shalom!

[Geezah]

Also when you say Arabs and Jews lived there at that time, there were only about 85,000 Jews by 1914. and how many Arabs lived there by then?

Also by 1914, 1925, 1948, whatever year you look at the bottom line is that there were Jews living there and in fact by 1914, that land wasn’t overtly habited at all by anyone for yes indeed were more Arabs there, however not astronomically more, for it’s a fact that most of the land that is now modern Israel by the 1900’s were mostly uninhabited.

"12,000 in 1845 to nearly 85,000 by 1914"



Thirdly yes the Arabs were more, but that was British controlled land, and that is why after the constant attacks on Jews there, (and subsequent attacks by Jews) the Brits decided to pack up and leave and then UN drew up a line where most of the land where most of the Arabs lived were given to them and actually that was also most of the good habitable land, while the Jews got a smaller percentage and mostly uninhabited land, however the Arabs rejected any form of coexistence and instead invaded to wipe out all of the Jews, they lost, hence more of our modern claim.

The Brits packed up after it was handed over to the UN and as far as any Arabs invaded after rejecting coexistence? the state of Israel was born May 14th 1948, "On May 15 the armies of Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq joined Palestinian and other Arab guerrillas who had been fighting Jewish forces since November 1947. The war now became an international conflict, the first Arab-Israeli War. The Arabs failed to prevent establishment of a Jewish state, and the war ended with four UN-arranged armistice agreements between Israel and Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria. The frontiers defined in the armistice agreements remained until they were altered by Israel's conquests during the Six days War in 1967."



Btw I would like to see your link for that 85,000..ok?

I'm sure you would.



Now, I was under the impression that there were intermitent attacks by Arabs on Jewish settlements because they were scared that outsiders were going to take over THEIR Country. First of all its not their country, the land was ruled by the Birts, now if you or going to say “yes but before it was yada yada”, then trust me I can play that game as well and say before and then that too we have more of a claim then the Arabs. No the fact is that before 1948 the land was ruled by the Brits!!!

The land may have been under British rule but it was still their land, this was after the Arabs helped the British fight the Turks during WW1!




So from what you're telling me is that the Jews at no point were targeting Arab civilians (http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/marines.htm) in Palestine? Boy you don’t read well, for I never said no such thing :roll:

I repeat, “The few occasions that Irgun did do some wrong things, they did warn civilians to get out first but even if not, the point is that at the time MOST Jews were against those Jewish groups and it was not supported by most (again unlike the Arab terrorists groups that were supported by most Arabs)”

What just like the King David hotel where the Jewish terrorists 'issued' a warning then blew it up after sneaking in dressed as Arabs and planted bombs? Also don't forget about the Stern Gang another Jewish terrorist group!



So yes it happened but it was not a frequent occurrence and as such its not THE Jews but rather it was ONLY SOME Jews, for when it did happen, it was not supported by most Jews, unlike the Arabs that when for example they attacked and massacred over 100 man women and children in 1929 in Hebron (btw land which the Jews there bought and paid for) most of the Arabs supported that and also all the numerous subsequent acts committed against our civilians.

"In August 1929, the century's first large-scale attack on Jews by Arabs rocked Jerusalem. The riots, in which Palestinians killed 133 Jews and suffered 116 deaths. Mostly inflicted by British troops were sparked by a dispute over use of the Western Wall of Al-Aqsa Mosque ( this site is sacred to Muslims, but Jews claimed it is the remaining of jews temple all studies shows clearly that the wall is from the Islamic ages and it is part of al-Aqsa Mosque). But the roots of the violence lay deeper in Arab fears of the burgeoning Zionist movement, which aimed to make at least part of British-administered Palestine a Jewish state."


In fact "haganha" only came into being a a Jewish defense force to help defend from the numerous attacks against our civilians being that the British rulers of the land weren’t lifting that much of a finger to help safeguard the Jews there.[/quoye]

From what I read it seemed like the British troops had to defend themselves and Arabs from Jewish attacks, but yes I will agree that I'm sure allot of Brits felt reluctant to help the Jews after all the kidnappings, beatings and murders of British Military personnel?



[quote=Geezah] Seeing as the majority don't claim any religious claim on Palenstine wouldn't it had been easier to migrate to Argentina instead? The thing that you're missing is the fact it may have been your Grandfather or Great Grandfather that was a visitor in the Arabs land? what arab land? :roll: oh before and before….in that case, yes before all that it was Jewish land!!

You have to remember that the Jewish tribes had been scattered, so at this point the only claim on Palestine is through religion.




Secondly well at the time no country wanted Jews, get it?

So indeed the secular Zionist actually did at first think of other places, hell I believe even Uganda in Africa was at one time a serious possibility, but that didn’t work out for various reasons.

Israel at the time was not very much habited and it was our biblical homeland and even though most of the Zionists weren’t religious, however it made sense to immigrate being that there were already Jews and heck if we cant be safe anywhere, might as well be unsafe there so they did go ahead and BUY land and settle there.

You have to realize that up until the point of the decision being made to immigrate to Palestine, there were only 12,000 Jews there.




Crocodile tears? I don't like the fact that innocents are dieing period, yes me too but I don’t like the fact when I only hear outrage and “crocodile tears” over a zoo, but never hear the same tone and outrage after a homicide bombing against our civilians etc….

So yes go cry over a zoo, while ill tend to our civilians that are being slaughtered.

Secondly we don’t target innocent’s, hell if we did, there wouldn’t be a Palestinian left or surly a lot more then the total of 3000 in the last four years of fighting (a figure lower btw then in just a few months that the U.S. and the Brits have killed in Iraq).

Why do you continue to bring up the war in Iraq? as far as I know they aren't relted to what's going on in Israel unless you know something I don't?


They mostly ONLY target our civilians, that a big differnce!!!

Which I do not agree with!



The Zoo was in a warzone that the IDF created, I still haven't seen anything that says the Zoo was on top of a tunnel? you might like owning firarms (as do I) but this statement here bellies the fact that you were never a soldier….I mean you obviously have no concept of what a war zone is or how ****y trapped roads are everywhere, how snipers shoot everywhere, just to defend that one tunnel, where ever it may be in that warzone. Other then that, I will leave you with your ignorance on THIS matter Of what a warZONE is).

As I'm ignorant to the ways war, I guess that means I should be seen and not heard!
Oh.....how many tunnels did they find in Rafah??? and how many were under the Zoo that the Palestinians destroyed to blame on the Israeli's?



You know what's wrong with your last statement, you said "OUR HUMANS" so you mean that only Israeli innocents deserve to live? :cantbeli: :roll: ok so now you are digging for starwman arguments and putting words into my mouth…pretty pathetic :roll:

No you cried and moaned about the poor zoo, while I made a point that I hear nothing but silence when our humans die, now nowhere in my point did I limit the ones right to live to only us.

But of course you need to form words in my mouth so you can continue on with your preconceived and false fallacies about our views and positions :roll:

Silence from who, i'm against any innocent life being lost!



As for your last links that basically all go to the same website, Like I said before, we did have some groups that at times did some wrong things, hwoever most of the times they were not doing those things and they were ONLY targeting military targets or defending against Arab attacks.

Secondly and more importantly, those were a minority and in fact MOST Jews at the time openly rejected them.

No where have I read that anyone disagreed with the of the Irgun or the Stern Gang, but it's very easy to claim to reject an organisation after the fact, doesn't Yassah Arafat do the same thing?




Anyways let me end off with some food for thought of my own.

the Brits actions against the Jews in the land before 1948 (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf2.html)

Click here for details on Irgun (http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/irguntoc.html) (this link address a lot of your links on Irguns actions)

Shalom :D

Is it possible to provide independent sources rather than pro US-Israel propoganda, check out the stuff about the Myths & Facts.
If you look over my links for Britains Small War no where does it make any of the false claims that the link you provided say they did?

[citizen-k]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!

1. Yes, I love cornfalkes - so I had some thins morning (like every morning)

2. I don't recall burning school buses in London as part of Jewish terrorism

Supporting/Understanding a nation that murders kids on purpose is supporting terror - which is exactly what you are doing.

Isn't that the flag of Britain in your avatar? I think brits are the last ones who can lecture about occupation in this world... ;)

Now, where is your serious reply? why a destroying a zoo in rapha is a war crime and shooting 4 little girls from close range (and their mother) is a fight for freedom? especially when you ignore the simple FACT that Gaza was FREE 3 years ago...until they restarted the war....

[Geezah]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!


1. Yes, I love cornfalkes - so I had some thins morning (like every morning)

Well good for you don't forget to add a bit of bran every now and again!


2. I don't recall burning school buses in London as part of Jewish terrorism

Sorry, how did we get to London


Supporting/Understanding a nation that murders kids on purpose is supporting terror - which is exactly what you are doing.

How am I supporting terrorism? because I'm questioning what's happening to innocent Palestinians? hell lets extend that to all the innocent people in Israel that are subjected to terror from both sides!That float your boat now?


Isn't that the flag of Britain in your avatar? I think brits are the last ones who can lecture about occupation in this world... ;)
They must call you bullet?
I'm somewhat aware of British history, but as you brought it up and it seems to be the only way you guys defend what's happneing in Israel please enlighten me with examples of what the British have done in the last 15yrs that's similar to what's happening in Israel today?



Now, where is your serious reply? why a destroying a zoo in rapha is a war crime and shooting 4 little girls from close range (and their mother) is a fight for freedom? especially when you ignore the simple FACT that Gaza was FREE 3 years ago...until they restarted the war....

They restarted the war? look seeing as we're going around in circles we're going to have to agree to disagree but I'm amazed how you guys try and justify what's happening in Israel by bringing up the war in Iraq :lol:

Disclaimer: I do not support terrorism in any way shape or form!

[Geezah]

August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 13,1947. Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

1947 -- 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.

[Geezah]

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS


LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).


This is information that was availble on the web, I was looking for infomration on the members of the "Irgun" and "Stern Gang" and this is one thing I found.
The thing I find surprising is I have been told that the majority of the Jewish people did not support the "Irgun" or "Stern Gang" but the people above were elected into positions of power by someone?

[Geezah]

Two Snippets of Israeli History
First, two propositions:

1. By writing articles critical of Israel, I, as a Jew, open myself to accusations of self-hatred or antisemitism. This is such a complex accusation I will not try to deal with it in detail here; I will write more about it another time. In brief, I am proud to be Jewish, but I do not agree with much of the policy and behavior of Israel, the Jewish state. Despite the efforts of many, Jews and others, to blur the distinctions in order to serve their own agendas, dislike of Israel and hatred of Jews need not be synonymous. If I placed Israel off limits because I am Jewish, I would have no right to publish the Ethical Spectacle. One of the major missions of the Spectacle is to expose double standards, not perpetuate them.

2. Those who claim to hold the moral high ground ought to be examined even more closely than those who make no such claim. In large part because of Germany's genocide against the Jews, Israel is shrouded in a fog that, from the outside, may seem like a moral glow. But this fog hides profound hypocrisy, anxiety and (I hope) self-doubt.


The Assassination of Count Bernadotte
On September 17, 1948, four men dressed in Israeli Army uniforms assassinated Count Folke Bernadotte, the man appointed by the United Nations to mediate the growing Arab-Jewish dispute. The four killers were never brought to justice.

Israel's founding Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, knew who the assassins were: members of the so-called Stern Gang, a Jewish terrorist group of several hundred members founded in 1940. Ben-Gurion made a behind-the-scenes deal with the murderers: freedom from prosecution if they would cease violence. The man who organized the killing of Count Bernadotte was Yitzhak Shamir, who later became Prime Minister himself.

Kati Marton, writing in the November New Yorker, summed up the reasons for the murder:


Stern's explosive rhetoric and uncompromising nationalism foreshadowed those of today's Palestinian radicals. Like them, Shamir's underground hated what the United Nations mediator stood for: compromise, conciliation, the abandonment of maximilist demands in the service of turning enemies into neighbors.
The killing of Bernadotte contributed materially to the successful sabotage of the peace efforts. More than five decades of murder and counter-murder have finally brought us back to a serious prospect for peace in a bloody land. But there are still terrorists on both sides, the Jewish machine-gunner in the mosque, the Arab suicide bomber, determined to prevent this.


Deir Yassin
Certain names should be on everyone's lips, but are on no-one's. Most of the people I ask about Deir Yassin, people who profess to understand the politics of Israel, to be intimately involved with them, have never heard of it.

On April 9, 1948--thus five months prior to the killing of Count Bernadotte-- the combined forces of the Stern Gang and the Irgun (military arm of the Revisionist party, commanded by Menachem Begin, later Prime Minister) carried out reprisals in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. Like the Stern Gang, the Irgun was responsible for many horrors; but Deir Yassin may have been the worst.

The villagers had actually signed a nonaggression pact with a nearby Jewish village when the Stern Gang decided to destroy Deir Yassin to teach the Arabs a lesson for over-running other Jewish settlements. As a senior Irgun officer later said:


The clear aim was to break Arab morale and raise the morale of the Jewish community in Jerusalem which had been hit hard time after time...
The villagers resisted the 120 Jewish attackers, as they had a right to, and a heavy machine gun and a mortar were brought up to end the battle. Then the raiding party entered the village and started behaving like a Nazi Einsatzkommando. Twenty-three men were led off to a quarry and executed in cold blood, and between 90 and 230 others were shot down in the village.

Begin's statement afterwards:


Accept my congratulations on this splendid act of conquest....
News of Deir Yassin spread quickly and was influential in causing much of the Arab population to flee the borders of the newly declared Israeli state. Israel, of course, has built a whole structure of ownership based on the "abandonment" of their houses and lands, as well as arguing ceaselessly that those who fled in 1948 did so needlessly and do not deserve to come back.

(Source for the Deir Yassin information: Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews (Harper Perennial, 1987).

What do these two events--the murder of Bernadotte, and "ethnic cleansing" at Deir Yassin--establish? That the state of Israel is rooted in the blood of one of its native populations, the Arabs. Two men, Begin and Shamir, later leaders of their country, were terrorists who planned and executed murders, and a third, Ben-Gurion, knew of murder and made secret deals protecting murderers.

Reverting to the issue of the Holocaust as a shield or an excuse for the Israelis, Israel is not, and has never been, primarily a nation of Holocaust survivors. Political Zionism has its roots in the 19th century and before. While Begin was a refugee from Poland, Ben Gurion had been in Palestine since early in the century, as had many of the early leaders of the new Israeli state. One early right-wing Zionist leader was Vladimir Jabotinsky, who wrote in 1923:


Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot--or else I am through with playing at colonization.
(Quoted in Beit-Hallahmi, Original Sins, (Olive Branch Press 1992), a book by an Israeli professor which I highly recommend. Beit-Hallahmi sums up as follows:


It was easy to make the Palestinians pay for 2,000 years of persecution. The Palestinians, who have felt the enormous power of this vengeance, were not the historical oppressors of the Jews. They did not put Jews into ghettoes and did not force them to wear yellow stars. They did not plan holocausts. But they had one fault. They were weak and defenseless in the face of real military might, so they were the ideal victims for an abstract revenge...
A country founded in blood--built on the backs and the corpses of a group of its inhabitants--is badly off-balance and will never recover, if it does not undertake a terrible soul-searching, a flight from violence and lies. There is a stirring, a yearning for peace and relief from violence today, but it is still being mitigated by hatred, denial, greed, and the desire for revenge. When the Israelis learn to police their own lunatic fringe, can avoid offering with one hand what they withdraw with the other, and face the Palestinians with firm honesty, there will be a chance.


Link (http://www.spectacle.org/495/deir.html)

[citizen-k]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!


1. Yes, I love cornfalkes - so I had some thins morning (like every morning)

Well good for you don't forget to add a bit of bran every now and again!


2. I don't recall burning school buses in London as part of Jewish terrorism

Sorry, how did we get to London


Supporting/Understanding a nation that murders kids on purpose is supporting terror - which is exactly what you are doing.

How am I supporting terrorism? because I'm questioning what's happening to innocent Palestinians? hell lets extend that to all the innocent people in Israel that are subjected to terror from both sides!That float your boat now?


Isn't that the flag of Britain in your avatar? I think brits are the last ones who can lecture about occupation in this world... ;)
They must call you bullet?
I'm somewhat aware of British history, but as you brought it up and it seems to be the only way you guys defend what's happneing in Israel please enlighten me with examples of what the British have done in the last 15yrs that's similar to what's happening in Israel today?



Now, where is your serious reply? why a destroying a zoo in rapha is a war crime and shooting 4 little girls from close range (and their mother) is a fight for freedom? especially when you ignore the simple FACT that Gaza was FREE 3 years ago...until they restarted the war....

They restarted the war? look seeing as we're going around in circles we're going to have to agree to disagree but I'm amazed how you guys try and justify what's happening in Israel by bringing up the war in Iraq :lol:

Disclaimer: I do not support terrorism in any way shape or form!

1. London - You were talking about Jewish terror against the occupation, didn't you? the only Jewish war against occupation was against the British - and, as I said, buses didn't blow up in London at that time.
2. Iraq - I don't see the word "Iraq" in my post

What is going on in Israel? The Palestinians decided to end the peace proccess and start a war, all over again - Israel is defending its citizens from beasts which are being supported by people like you.



innocent Palestinians

A person who uses his house for smuggling explosives is not innocent and shouldn't be surprised when his house is demolished.

A parent who send his child to be used as live shield to sycho religious maniacs shouldn't be surprised when he dies.

The state of Israel is here to stay, either the Palestinians decide to live beside it, or this war will continue.

Instead of pointing out bad israelis (which are 10% of the entire population)
, try to find one good Palestinian.

[Moledet]

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS


LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).


This is information that was availble on the web, I was looking for infomration on the members of the "Irgun" and "Stern Gang" and this is one thing I found.
The thing I find surprising is I have been told that the majority of the Jewish people did not support the "Irgun" or "Stern Gang" but the people above were elected into positions of power by someone?
LOL, where did you find that list? On Electronic intifada or maybe al Jazeera? I have to say that it's redicolous. If they were war criminals, terorists, etc... They would have been judged.
BTW, Rabin is very appreciated all over the world, there are even streets and buildings on his name in foreign countries.
Only one time citizens were slaughterd by Israeli soldiers, it was in a vilage near Jerusalem before 1948 and the Israeli government apologised for the killing, all the other stories are false anti Israeli propoganda.
P.S. You cay try to justify the Palestinians but they are being blamed for Crimes against Humanity and for a justify reason.

[S'13]

It seems as though Geezah has embarked on some sort of crusade against the Yishuv... :|

Again I see that Deir Yassin is brought up, oh well.


What happened at Dir Yassin?

Dir Yassin was certainly not a massacre of a peaceful village, but rather was an Arab-Jewish battle with unfortunate civilian casualties.

Dir Yassin lies on a hill west of Jerusalem, eight hundred meters above sea level, and 700 meters from the Jewish neighbourhood of Givat Shaul. The Dir Yassin fortified position overlooked the westerly Jewish neighborhoods: Givat Shaul, Bet Hakerem, Yefe Nof, and the road to Bayit Vagan. The village also overlooked the section of road linking Jerusalem to Tel-Aviv. Dir Yassin served as a halfway site for forces moving up from the Arab villages of Ein Karem and Malha in the south to Kastel and Kolonia, which overlooked the main Jerusalem - Tel Aviv road.

On April 2, 1948, the Arab inhabitants of Dir Yassin began sniping at the Jewish Quarters of Bet Hakerem and Yefe Nof. According to reports by the Shai (Haganah Intelligence), fortifications were being constructed in the village and a large quantity of arms being stockpiled. Several days before the attack on Dir Yassin, the presence of foreign fighters was reported, including Iraqi soldiers and irregular forces. An Arab research study conducted at Bir Zeit University (near Ramallah) relates that the men of Dir Yassin took an active part in violent acts against Jewish targets and that many of the men of the village fought in the battle for Kastel, together with Abd-el-Kadr el-Husseini. The report also stated that trenches had been dug at the entry to the village, and that more than 100 men had been trained and equipped with rifles and Bren guns. A local guard force had been set up and 40 inhabitants guarded the village every night.

On April 6, 1948, Operation Nachshon was launched by the Haganah with the aim of opening up the road to Jerusalem. The Palmach was part of this effort together with the Irgun (under Menachem Begin) and Lehi forces, their first combined operation. On Thursday, April 8, 1948 they launched an attack on Dir Yassin between 4 and 5 AM. A loudspeaker mounted on an armored car warned the Arabs and asked them to evacuate their women and children. Hundreds left, but hundreds stayed. A pitched battle ensued, and when the smoke cleared, 110 to 120 Arabs were killed, 40 Jews were seriously injured and four Jews were dead. The number killed has been confirmed even by Palestinian Arab researchers, such as Bir Zeit University professor Sharif Kanaana who puts the number no higher than 120 (although he clings to the claim of massacre). Another contemporary Arab source deflates the number killed to less than 100, stating, after a count, "that there were no more than 46 corpses". The head of the coroner unit, professor Yehoshua Arieli, testified that the number was 110.

The use of the loudsepaker to warn the civilians to evacuate is a key point, certainly not the action of soldiers planning to murder the population. The loudspeaker is not in dispute. A publication of the Arab League titled Israeli Aggression states:

On the night of April 9, 1948, the peaceful Arab village of Deir Yassin was surprised by a loudspeaker, which called on the population to evacuate it immediately.
The village was not peaceful, but the essential part of this quote agrees with Jewish accounts.

The massacre claim, meaning the killing of defenceless people, has long since been discredited by the Israeli government and every other historical study. The story persists because pro-Arab sources constantly repeat it, often inflating the number of dead to 250 or more. There are completely fictional accounts written about Arabs being marched to the mosque and shot against the walls, or even worse stories of torture, rape or any other shocking aspect the storyteller invents. As an example, here is how one Arab website describes the scene:

[The Jews used] machine guns, then grenades and finished of with knives. Women's bellies were cut open and babies were butchered in the hands of their helpless mothers. Around 250 people were murdered in cold blood. Of them 25 pregnant women were bayoneted in the abdomen while still alive. 52 children were maimed under the eyes of their own mothers, and they were slain and their heads cut off.

To say there is not a shread of evidence for these embellishments is giving them too much credit.

On the contrary, there are eyewitness accounts from the time, Jewish and Arab, that tell the story as it happened. For example, according to the Daily Telegraph, April 8, 1998, Ayish Zeidan, a resident of the village and a survivor of the fighting there, stated:

The Arab radio talked of women being killed and raped, but this is not true... I believe that most of those who were killed were among the fighters and the women and children who helped the fighters. The Arab leaders committed a big mistake. By exaggerating the atrocities they thought they would encourage people to fight back harder. Instead they created panic and people ran away.

Dir Yassin was a reasonable military target for Jewish forces, there was warning given before the battle, a fierce battle was fought with casualties on both sides. No massacre, no mutiliations, no atrocities.

Palestinian Arab eyewitnesses have recently admitted that some of their claims about Dir Yassin were deliberate fabrications. The issue of the Jerusalem Report dated April 2, 1998 describes a BBC television program in which Hazem Nusseibeh, an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948, admits that he was told by Hussein Khalidi, a prominent Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate claims of atrocities at Dir Yassin in order to encourage Arab regimes to invade the expected Jewish state.

According to the Jerusalem Report:

Nusseibeh "describes an encounter at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem's Old City with Deir Yassin survivors and Palestinian leaders, including Hussein Khalidi... 'I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story,' recalled Nusseibeh. 'He said, "We must make the most of this." So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women were raped. All sorts of atrocities.' "

The BBC program then shows a recent interview with Abu Mahmud, who was a Dir Yassin resident in 1948, who says:

... the villagers protested against the atrocity claims: We said, "There was no rape." [Khalidi] said, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews."

Khalidi was one of the originators of the "massacre" allegation in 1948. It was Khalidi's claims about Jewish atrocities in Dir Yassin that were the basis for an article in the New York Times by its correspondent, Dana Schmidt (on April 12, 1948), claiming a massacre took place. The Times article has been widely reprinted and cited as "proof" of the massacre throughout the past 50 years.

Nusseibeh, who is a member of one of Jerusalem's most prominent Arab families and presently lives in Amman, told the BBC that the fabricated atrocity stories about Dir Yassin were:

"...our biggest mistake," because "Palestinians fled in terror" and left the country in huge numbers after hearing the atrocity claims.

It has also been alleged that the Dir Yassin hoax was supported by the left-wing political party of David Ben-Gurion in order to smear the right-wing, the Irgun and its commander Menachem Begin.

Note: Also spelled Dayr Yasin, Deir Yassin, Dir Yassin, and variants.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_war_diryassin.php

[G1]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/1.stm

Because we dont want more people like him...
you guys always hear about the poor palastines, but did you heard about the suicide bombers victims ?

Yes.

[S'13]

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS


LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).


This is information that was availble on the web, I was looking for infomration on the members of the "Irgun" and "Stern Gang" and this is one thing I found.
The thing I find surprising is I have been told that the majority of the Jewish people did not support the "Irgun" or "Stern Gang" but the people above were elected into positions of power by someone?

I bet Sir Winston Churchill who was one of Britain's (and the world's) greatest leaders is seen by many as a war criminal because of the part he played in the firebombing of whole German cities in the Second World War, would you agree with them? :roll:

[Geezah]

Only houses located near the border which are used for the tunnels were destroyed.


And the animals in the Zoo were part of some crack suicide team?
I find amazing that over the last few days, no matter what the IDF has done, the Israeli members on this board think it's right?


What zoo? why should I care about a zoo? This is a f*** war, grow up, join the army and then come back talking about zoo's in war zones :cantbeli:

A person who shoot 4 little girls age 2-11 and their mother from close range should be in that zoo - along with those who support him.
(That means YOU!)

Hmmm........So I need to grow up and join the army?????? well I guess you must have had your corn flakes this morning!
It's comments like the above that go to show how you people have a total disregard for anything that is not Israeli!
I guess you guys won't be happy until you've pushed them off the face of the Earth?

Like I've said time and again, I don't support terrorists at all and the more I'm reading here and reading elsewhere, I'm finding the Palestinian terrorists of today learnt how to play the game from the Jewish terrorists nearly 50yrs ago!


1. Yes, I love cornfalkes - so I had some thins morning (like every morning)

Well good for you don't forget to add a bit of bran every now and again!


2. I don't recall burning school buses in London as part of Jewish terrorism

Sorry, how did we get to London


Supporting/Understanding a nation that murders kids on purpose is supporting terror - which is exactly what you are doing.

How am I supporting terrorism? because I'm questioning what's happening to innocent Palestinians? hell lets extend that to all the innocent people in Israel that are subjected to terror from both sides!That float your boat now?


Isn't that the flag of Britain in your avatar? I think brits are the last ones who can lecture about occupation in this world... ;)
They must call you bullet?
I'm somewhat aware of British history, but as you brought it up and it seems to be the only way you guys defend what's happneing in Israel please enlighten me with examples of what the British have done in the last 15yrs that's similar to what's happening in Israel today?



Now, where is your serious reply? why a destroying a zoo in rapha is a war crime and shooting 4 little girls from close range (and their mother) is a fight for freedom? especially when you ignore the simple FACT that Gaza was FREE 3 years ago...until they restarted the war....

They restarted the war? look seeing as we're going around in circles we're going to have to agree to disagree but I'm amazed how you guys try and justify what's happening in Israel by bringing up the war in Iraq :lol:

Disclaimer: I do not support terrorism in any way shape or form!


1. London - You were talking about Jewish terror against the occupation, didn't you? the only Jewish war against occupation was against the British - and, as I said, buses didn't blow up in London at that time.

What you mean the Stern Gang and Irgun didn't get that far?





What is going on in Israel? The Palestinians decided to end the peace proccess and start a war, all over again - Israel is defending its citizens from beasts which are being supported by people like you.

Please point out where I said I support terrorists?, or is it because I question what is going on over there that I'm seen as giving support.
Get a life, I don't support terrorism but it seems like the Israeli's did?
Next you're acuse me of being anti semitic because I don't agree with everything you guys say like some lap dog!



innocent Palestinians

A person who uses his house for smuggling explosives is not innocent and shouldn't be surprised when his house is demolished.

A parent who send his child to be used as live shield to sycho religious maniacs shouldn't be surprised when he dies.

The state of Israel is here to stay, either the Palestinians decide to live beside it, or this war will continue.

Instead of pointing out bad israelis (which are 10% of the entire population)
, try to find one good Palestinian.

So the state of Israel is here to stay ;) and when you say that 10% of Israeli's are bad #1,so you agree that there are bad ones and #2,are those the ones that have been elected into power?

[Geezah]

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS


LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).


This is information that was availble on the web, I was looking for infomration on the members of the "Irgun" and "Stern Gang" and this is one thing I found.
The thing I find surprising is I have been told that the majority of the Jewish people did not support the "Irgun" or "Stern Gang" but the people above were elected into positions of power by someone?
LOL, where did you find that list? On Electronic intifada or maybe al Jazeera? I have to say that it's redicolous. If they were war criminals, terorists, etc... They would have been judged.
BTW, Rabin is very appreciated all over the world, there are even streets and buildings on his name in foreign countries.
Only one time citizens were slaughterd by Israeli soldiers, it was in a vilage near Jerusalem before 1948 and the Israeli government apologised for the killing, all the other stories are false anti Israeli propoganda.
P.S. You cay try to justify the Palestinians but they are being blamed for Crimes against Humanity and for a justify reason.

Yes, that's right all information that doesn't come from Israel is false propoganda, unfortunelty I don't live on a street dedicated to Rabin!


LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

[Bootneck]

Ok, Geezah. How about posting a link to your source for the first two quotes you posted? I'd like to know what kind of "independent" source serves up this stuff.



ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS


LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).

[Moledet]

ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS


LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, M. SHARRETT.

Qualifications: Close associate of most the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believed in the aims of the war criminals, however, differed on the means of establishing those aims. For example, he tried to prevent the Qibia (Kibya) attack (ordered by D. Ben-Gurion and carried out by A. Sharon) fearing that such ruthless attacks (in this case a massacre) might alienate Western opinion.

LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, L. ESHKOL.

Qualifications: Although, not personally a terrorist, assassin or war criminal Eshkol organized the 1967 war which resulted in the largest expansion of the Jewish state ever.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, G. MEIR.

Qualifications: Singularly unsuited for the job of Prime Minister of Israel. Before becoming Prime Minister, was neither a known terrorist nor war criminal. However, in Feb. 1973, as Prime Minister, Golda Meir authorized the shooting down a Libyan civilian airliner over the Sinai by Israeli jet fighters, killing all 107 passengers and its French crew. So it seems she was more suited to the job than was initially apparent.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, S. PERES.

Qualifications: Plays "good cop". Close associate of all the war criminals and terrorists mentioned. Believes in the aims of the war criminals, just differs on the means. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians. What Moshe Sharett had to say about Shimon Peres: "I have stated that I totally and utterly reject (Shimon) Peres and consider his rise to prominence a malignant, immoral disgrace. I will rend my clothes in mourning for the State if I see him become a minister in the Israeli government".

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, B. NETANYAHU.

Qualifications: Bungler thief/con-man. One of the more moral Israeli prime ministers. This war criminal was responsible for ordering the shelling and bombing of civilians (by Israeli military forces) in Lebanon.

LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, E. BARAK.

Qualifications: Assassin. In Beirut 1973, Barak (while dressed as a woman) assassinated the Palestinian leader Kamal Edwan, together with his wife and seven year old daughter. Other members of Barak's death squad, killed Abu Youssif al-Najar, the poet Kamal Nassar and their families.

LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, A. SHARON.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Presided over the massacres of some 2-3,000 civilians at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps in Beirut. Founded Unit 101 (a notorious death squad within the Israeli Defense Force). For many years, commanded cross-border Unit 101 raids, for example, the 1953 massacre at Qibia (Kibya) where civilians were blown up inside their houses (and shot dead if they tried to flee).


This is information that was availble on the web, I was looking for infomration on the members of the "Irgun" and "Stern Gang" and this is one thing I found.
The thing I find surprising is I have been told that the majority of the Jewish people did not support the "Irgun" or "Stern Gang" but the people above were elected into positions of power by someone?
LOL, where did you find that list? On Electronic intifada or maybe al Jazeera? I have to say that it's redicolous. If they were war criminals, terorists, etc... They would have been judged.
BTW, Rabin is very appreciated all over the world, there are even streets and buildings on his name in foreign countries.
Only one time citizens were slaughterd by Israeli soldiers, it was in a vilage near Jerusalem before 1948 and the Israeli government apologised for the killing, all the other stories are false anti Israeli propoganda.
P.S. You cay try to justify the Palestinians but they are being blamed for Crimes against Humanity and for a justify reason.

Yes, that's right all information that doesn't come from Israel is false propoganda, unfortunelty I don't live on a street dedicated to Rabin!


LABOUR PRIME MINISTER, Y. RABIN.

Qualifications: War Criminal. In 1948 (on instruction from Ben Gurion) ethnically cleansed some 70,000 Palestinians from Lydda and Ramleh. This included the massacre of several hundred resident civilians (to get them moving). In 1967 Rabin ordered the ethnic cleansing of some 5,000 from the villages of Emwas, Beit Nuba and Yalou and the dynamiting and bulldozing of their homes.

Nope, but you can take material which was not written by terrorists supporters. Israel's information is "a bit" more accurate because we are a democracy, so we are being taught the truth and not distorted facts.
Peres is also greatly appreciated all over the world, not because he is a "war criminal" but because he fought for peace. Go ahead and read what leaders of nations wrote about him:
http://www.peres80.com/
It just shows that this information is heavily biased and distorted.

[S'13]

Why did Arabs leave the new State of Israel?

The vexing question of the "Palestinian Refugees" is one of the perennial open sores of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs. The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-48 for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle. Tragically, had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee and an independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

There are now claims from Arab sources that millions of Palestinians were pushed off their land by the Zionists, then expelled by the new State of Israel in the War of Independence in 1948, followed by similar Israeli policies that continue today. What is the truth of these claims?

The Palestinian tragedy is primarily self-inflicted, a direct result of the vehement Palestinian Arab rejection of the United Nations resolution of November 29, 1947 calling for the establishment of two states in Palestine, and the violent attempt by the Arab nations of the region to abort the Jewish state at birth. Palestinian Arabs have tried to rewrite the history of the 1948 war in a manner that stains Israel politically and morally. Their objective is to 1) extract from Israel a confession of the allegedly forcible dispossession of "native Palestinians" by "an act of expulsion," and then 2) to ensure the return of refugees to parts of the territory that is now Israel and/or to compensate the Palestinian Arabs monetarily for their sufferings.

But this cannot actually happen, however fervently Arabs may believe in it, because historical fact is not what they claim. Arabs left Israel in 1948 in large numbers, it is true, but not for the reasons that Palestinian Arabs put forth. Fortunately for history, during the past decade Israeli and other state archives have declassified millions of records, including invaluable contemporary Arab and Palestinian documents, relating to the 1948 war and the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem. These make it possible to establish the truth about what happened in Palestine.

A good example is events of the War of Independence period in the city of Haifa. When hostilities between Arabs and Jews broke out in 1947, there were 62,500 Arabs in Haifa; by May 1948, all but a few were gone, accounting for fully a tenth of the total Palestinian dispersion.

The first thing the documents show is that Arab flight from Haifa began well before the outbreak of hostilities, and even before the UN’s November 29, 1947 partition resolution. On October 23, over a month earlier, a British intelligence brief was already noting that:

... leading Arab personalities are acting on the assumption that disturbances are near at hand, and have already evacuated their families to neighboring Arab countries.

By November 21, as the General Assembly was getting ready to vote, not just "leading Arab personalities" but "many Arabs of Haifa" were reported to be removing their families. And as the violent Arab reaction to the UN resolution built up, eradicating any hope of its peaceful enforcement, this stream of refugees turned into a flood. Thus it was that, by mid-December 1947, some 15,000-20,000 people, almost a third of the city’s Arab population, had fled, creating severe economic adversity for those remaining who found essential services disrupted, causing both unemployment and shortages in basic necessities. As 1948 wore on, looting, infighting between rival Arab groups, and other disturbances made Haifa increasingly uninhabitable. The Arab leaders of Haifa dispatched an emergency delegation to Cairo in late January, warning that, if terrorist activity did not cease, the result would be the eventual disappearance of the entire Haifa community. Their warning had no effect.

There is an overwhelming body of evidence from contemporary Arab, Jewish, British, and American sources to prove that, far from seeking to drive the Arabs out of Haifa, the Jewish authorities went to considerable lengths to convince them to stay. During the fighting in the city in April 1948, The Hagana’s truce terms stipulated that Arabs were expected to "carry on their work as equal and free citizens of Haifa." In its Arabic-language broadcasts and communications, the Hagana consistently articulated the same message. On April 22, at the height of the fighting, it distributed a circular noting its ongoing campaign to clear the town of all "criminal foreign bands" so as to allow the restoration of "peace and security and good neighborly relations among all of the town’s inhabitants." On April 29, even Farid Saad of the [Arab] National Committee was saying that Jewish leaders had "organized a large propaganda campaign to persuade [the] Arabs to return."

As the Jews were attempting to keep the Arabs in Haifa, an ad-hoc body, the Arab Emergency Committee, under orders from the Arab Higher Committee, was doing its best to get them out. Scaremongering was a major weapon in its arsenal. Some Arab residents received written threats that, unless they left town, they would be branded as traitors deserving of death. Others were told they could expect no mercy from the Jews. Sheikh Abd al-Rahman Murad of the National Committee, who had headed the truce negotiating team, proved particularly effective at this latter tactic: on April 23, he warned a large group of escapees from the neighborhood of Wadi Nisnas, who were about to return to their homes, that if they did so they would all be killed, as the Jews spared not even women and children. On the other hand, he continued, the Arab Legion had 200 trucks ready to transfer the Haifa refugees to a safe haven, where they would be given free accommodation,clothes, and food. Sir Alan Cunningham, the British high commissioner for Palestine, wrote in an official communication to London:

British authorities in Haifa have formed the impression that total evacuation is being urged on the Haifa Arabs from higher Arab quarters and that the townsfolk themselves are against it.

Syria's UN delegate, Faris el-Khouri, interrupted the UN debate on April 22, 1948 on Palestine to describe the seizure of Haifa as a "massacre" and said this action was "further evidence that the 'Zionist program' is to annihilate Arabs within the Jewish state if partition is effected." The following day (April 23, 1948), however, the British representative at the UN, Sir Alexander Cadogan, told the delegates that the fighting in Haifa had been provoked by the continuous attacks by Arabs against Jews a few days before and that reports of massacres and deportations were erroneous. The same day, Jamal Husseini, the chairman of the Palestine Higher Committee, told the UN Security Council that instead of accepting the Haganah's truce offer, the Arabs "preferred to abandon their homes, their belongings, and everything they possessed in the world and leave the town."

Palestinian Arabs bemoan "the uprooting of the Palestinian people in one of the worst crimes of modern history." But were they uprooted, and if so by whom? In Haifa, one of the largest and most dramatic locales of the Palestinian exodus, not only had half the Arab community fled the city before the final battle was joined, but another 5,000-15,000 apparently left voluntarily during the fighting while the rest, some 15,000-25,000 souls, were ordered or bullied into leaving against their wishes, almost certainly on the instructions of the Arab Higher Committee. The crime was exclusively of Arab making. There was no Jewish grand design to force this departure, nor was there a psychological "blitz." To the contrary, both the Haifa Jewish leadership and the Hagana went to great lengths to convince the Arabs to stay.

The well-documented efforts, indeed, reflected the wider Jewish attitude in Palestine. All deliberations of the Jewish leadership regarding the transition to statehood were based on the assumption that, in the Jewish state that would arise with the termination of the British Mandate, Palestine’s Arabs would remain as equal citizens. Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

In the country as a whole, just as in Haifa, the first Arabs to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends. All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref explained in his history of the 1948 war:

The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.

The fabrication can probably most easily be seen in that at the time the alleged cruel expulsion of Arabs by Zionists was in progress, it passed unnoticed. Foreign newspapermen who covered the war of 1948 on both sides did, indeed, write about the flight of the Arabs, but even those most hostile to the Jews saw nothing to suggest that it was not voluntary. In the three months during which the major part of the flight took place -- April, May, and June 1948 -- the London Times, at that time openly hostile to Zionism, published eleven leading articles on the situation in Palestine in addition to extensive news reports and articles. In none was there even a hint of the charge that the Zionists were driving the Arabs from their homes.

More interesting still, no Arab spokesman mentioned the subject. At the height of the flight, on April 27, Jamal Husseini, the Palestine Arabs' chief representative at the United Nations, made his long political statement, which was not lacking in hostility toward the Zionists; he did not mention refugees. Three weeks later -- while the flight was still in progress -- the Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, made a fiercely worded political statement on Palestine; it contained not a word about refugees.

Throughout the period that preceded the May 15 invasion of the Arab regular armies, large-scale military engagements, incessant sniping, robberies and bombings took place. In view of the thousands of casualties that resulted from the pre-invasion violence, it is not surprising that many Arabs would have fled out of fear for their lives. The second phase of the Arab flight began after the Jewish forces started to register military victories against Arab irregulars, as in the battles for Tiberias and Haifa. Arab leaders were alarmed by these developments:

On January 30, 1948, the Jaffa newspaper, Ash Sha'ab, reported: "The first of our fifth column consists of those who abandon their houses and businesses and go to live elsewhere....At the first signs of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."

Another Jaffa paper, As Sarih (March 30, 1948) excoriated Arab villagers near Tel Aviv for "bringing down disgrace on us all by 'abandoning the villages."

John Bagot Glubb, the commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, said: "Villages were frequently abandoned even before they were threatened by the progress of war" (London Daily Mail, August 12, 1948).

More than 200,000 Arabs had left the country by the time the provisional government declared the independence of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948. When the invasion by Arab armies began the next day, most Arabs remaining in Palestine left for neighboring countries. The Palestinian Arabs chose to flee to the safety of the other Arab states, still confident of being able to return, rather than remaining in Israel to act as a strategically valuable "fifth*column" in the war. A leading Palestinian nationalist of the time, Musa Alami, revealed the attitude of the fleeing Arabs:

The Arabs of Palestine left their homes, were scattered, and lost everything. But there remained one solid hope: The Arab armies were on the eve of their entry into Palestine to save the country and return things to their normal course, punish the aggressor, and throw oppressive Zionism with its dreams and dangers into the sea. On May 14, 1948, crowds of Arabs stood by the roads leading to the frontiers of Palestine, enthusiastically welcoming the advancing armies. Days and weeks passed, sufficient to accomplish the sacred mission, but the Arab armies did not save the country. They did nothing but let slip from their hands Acre, Sarafand, Lydda, Ramleh, Nazareth, most of the south and the rest of the north. Then hope fled. (Middle East Journal, October 1949)

As the possibility of Arab defeat turned into reality, the flight of the Arabs increased, exacerbated further by the atrocity stories following the attack on Dir Yassin. More than 300,000 departed after May 15, leaving approximately 160,000 Arabs in the State of Israel. Although most of the Arabs had left by November 1948, there were still those who chose to leave even after hostilities ceased. One survey concluded that sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

The research done by Benny Morris in Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem is, despite occasional inaccuracies, more detailed and accurate than anything that preceded it. If we consider the facts Morris presents, it is reasonably clear that the flight of much of the Arab population from the territory that became Israel stemmed from battles between Arab and Jewish forces, and from the fears of Arab civilians of getting caught in the fighting. The Zionist leadership, Morris' research shows, correctly understood the danger that the Palestinian Arabs posed to the nascent Jewish state, and therefore did little to prevent their departure, at times encouraging or even precipitating it through political or military actions. In fact, Morris' own research does much to disprove the claims of his recent writings that what happened during the War of Independence was "ethnic cleansing."

The role of Arab leaders in urging the Arab population to leave is similarly well-documented. Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, declared:

We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down.

The Secretary of the Arab League Office in London, Edward Atiyah, wrote in his book, The Arabs:

This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boastings of an unrealistic Arabic press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re*enter and retake possession of their country.

In his memoirs, Haled al Azm, the Syrian Prime Minister in 1948*49, also admitted the Arab role in persuading the refugees to leave:

Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave. Only a few months separated our call to them to leave and our appeal to the United Nations to resolve on their return.

Monsignor George Hakim, a Greek Orthodox Catholic Bishop of Galilee told the Beirut newspaper, Sada al*Janub (August 16, 1948):

The refugees were confident their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab armies would crush the 'Zionist gangs' very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long exile.

One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said:

The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in.

Habib Issa said in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951):

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade. He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

And Jordan's King Abdullah, writing in his memoirs, blamed Palestinian leaders for the refugee problem:

The tragedy of the Palestinians was that most of their leaders had paralyzed them with false and unsubstantiated promises that they were not alone; that 80 million Arabs and 400 million Muslims would instantly and miraculously come to their rescue.

In a few, exceptional cases accounting for only a small fraction of the Palestinian refugees, The Haganah did employ psychological warfare to encourage the Arabs to abandon a few villages. This insignificant element of the issue has been magnified by pro-Palestinian Arab advocates as if it were the whole problem.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_refugees_arabs_why.php

[IDFM203]

"12,000 in 1845 to nearly 85,000 by 1914" and so Jews immigrated to mostly uninhabited land, which was under the rule of the British and before then under the rule of the ottoman Turks, as that land was at those times and they BOUGHT and PAID for land they went to and started to cultivate it…ok, and? Point?

Btw again, a link to your numbers?


The Brits packed up after it was handed over to the UN and as far as any Arabs invaded after rejecting coexistence? yes they rejected for the Arabs refused to recognize any lines that the UN drew up, even though the Jews got mostly uninhabited land in those lines and lines where Jews were a majority (and the Arabs got mostly good land) and then they invaded to wipe out all of the Jews.

That’s them rejecting Jews living there in any lines and its after they invaded and lost, is how we really came into a state.

The call for a state is not how our state was born, for while yes officially we were a state, but if we were to lose after they invaded, not only wouldn’t we have any state, none of us would exist.


Btw I would like to see your link for that 85,000..ok?


I'm sure you would. Well it tends to your credibly as to the numbers you threw down as to the sites you claim them from.

those numbers are in serious question till you can provide where you got them from.

So again where did you get those numbers from?


The land may have been under British rule but it was still their land, this was after the Arabs helped the British fight the Turks during WW1! what the Arabs did for the Brits have no consequence on what I am saying.

That land was ruled by the ottoman Turks and then by the Brits, period,

And before then it was rued by etc.. and then before then it was ruled by etc..and then even way before then it was the Jews.

So yes if we play this before then game, the Jews have the rightful claim as well.


What just like the King David hotel where the Jewish terrorists 'issued' a warning then blew it up after sneaking in dressed as Arabs and planted bombs? Also don't forget about the Stern Gang another Jewish terrorist group! yes and I already addressed the king David, for other then that and a few other cases, the rest were against military targets ONLY.


Secondly I repeat………“The few occasions that Irgun (or a few other smaller groups) did do some wrong things, they did warn civilians to get out first but even if not, the point is that at the time MOST Jews were against those Jewish groups and it was not supported by most (again unlike the Arab terrorists groups that were supported by most Arabs)”

Haganah, and a few others, was much bigger then all those groups you mentioned and they represented a majority view and their actions were not against civilians at all and they as well as most Jews at the time were against the stern gang and and irgun (which btw were very small groups)

This is unlike the Arabs that were encouraged by the Brits to attack Jewish targets, or if at times they didn’t encourage, they didn’t lift any finger to help defend against the attacks against our civilians, and those Arab attacks were supported by most Arabs.


But the roots of the violence lay deeper in Arab fears of the burgeoning Zionist movement, which aimed to make at least part of British-administered Palestine a Jewish state." So that’s a excuse for you to justify the murder of man women and children? :roll:

Secondly, we bought and paid for land in which we lived in, they had no right to go on a murderous rampage and kill in land we paid for.

You justifying this just make you amongst other things a outright hypocrite when you start moaning and whining on how you don’t like to see any innocents die and how that’s wrong and here you come off as justifying it :roll:


From what I read it seemed like the British troops had to defend themselves and Arabs from Jewish attacks, but yes I will agree that I'm sure allot of Brits felt reluctant to help the Jews after all the kidnappings, beatings and murders of British Military personnel? no you read a wrong perspective, for Jews were being attacked by Arabs way before any reprisals by some Jews and this was with the encouragement of the British rulers and masters of that land, so naturally some of the Jews viewed the Arabs attacking and the ones supporting them as our enemies (especially after the white paper and sending back Jews to the concentration camps or shooting at civilains on ships etc..)


You have to remember that the Jewish tribes had been scattered, so at this point the only claim on Palestine is through religion. no in Jerusalem, there were always Jews there and yes they can trace back generations.

The rest of Israel was mostly uninhabited land and was not ruled by Arabs and as such Jews immigrated there and bought land and cultivated it.


You have to realize that up until the point of the decision being made to immigrate to Palestine, there were only 12,000 Jews there. .so? And again how many Arabs were there by that point?

Btw again I want to see a credible source for your figures before I really analyze them.


Why do you continue to bring up the war in Iraq? as far as I know they aren't relted to what's going on in Israel unless you know something I don't? .no they are related to the person (you) placing your self on a moral high ground when you don’t have even have as much as a dogs leg to stand on.

Which I do not agree with! Well as a soldier myself, I KNOW your wrong in MOST cases!!

Again in war its sad that civilians get killed but we don’t target them, period!!


and how many were under the Zoo that the Palestinians destroyed to blame on the Israeli's? again there isn’t necessarily a tunnel under the zoo, do you not understand what I just wrote before :roll: …I repeat” you might like owning firearms (as do I) but this statement here bellies the fact that you were never a soldier….I mean you obviously have no concept of what a war zone is or how ****y trapped roads are everywhere, how snipers shoot everywhere, just to defend that one tunnel, where ever it may be in that warzone. Other then that, I will leave you with your ignorance on THIS matter Of what a warZONE is)”

btw the palis didn’t destroy any tunnels, no they fought all around and over them to protect their arms supply from being destroyed so they can continue targeting Israelis cities and towns.


As I'm ignorant to the ways war, I guess that means I should be seen and not heard!
Oh.....
no everyone can be heard but just as well I can point out how ignorant you are in these matters for a further asking if there is a tunnel under the zoo after I just explained to you the facts of a warzone there, just tells me that yes you can be heard and yes again I will show how you sound ignorant.

Capish?(sp?) Good! :D



Silence from who, i'm against any innocent life being lost!
That’s all nice and dandy that you say this universal proclamation now, but usually I only hear outrage when a zoo is destroyed but when our civilians our are blown up I usually only hear silence and certainly no outrage from you or from a lot like you.

Fact is you don’t apply universal standards when dishing out your public outrage.



No where have I read that anyone disagreed with the of the Irgun or the Stern Gang, but it's very easy to claim to reject an organisation after the fact, doesn't Yassah Arafat do the same thing? Wrong we rejected some of their actions at the time ….in fact there was almost a civil war between haganha and other groups against them over the way they were acting.

Secondly I showed you links where then we disagreed, go read them again.

Yasser arafat doesn’t reject his groups, for he is a terrorist group and in the past he might have only said a few token words in English, but he never rejected them in Arabic and in fact he has worked and helped plan a lot of terrorist actions that targeted mostly ONLY our civilians.

And this targeting of our civilians is supported by a clear Majority of Palestinians!!!!!!

Btw I personally don’t reject Irgun, I just reject some of their operations, but the other ones IMO were legitimate and they were not aimed at civilians at all (again unlike the Arab and pali groups where they MOSTLY and ONLY target civilians)..but hey that’s just me ;)



Is it possible to provide independent sources rather than pro US-Israel propoganda, check out the stuff about the Myths & Facts.
oh so your links are not pro Brit (which then for sure and some say even now was anti Israel) propaganda?? :roll: Listen, my links are from a lot of various sources from that time, go read them and let me see if you can disprove what was written there?……..come on give it a go :D

Shalom :D

[S'13]

What just like the King David hotel where the Jewish terrorists 'issued' a warning then blew it up after sneaking in dressed as Arabs and planted bombs? Also don't forget about the Stern Gang another Jewish terrorist group! yes and I already addressed the king David, for other then that and a few other cases, the rest were against military targets ONLY.


Actually the bombing of the King David hotel which has been waved by so many Israel bashers as a "terror attack" was in fact an attack on a military target since this building was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division.


The Bombing of the King David Hotel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."1 As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast.2

In contrast to Arab attacks against Jews, which were widely hailed as heroic actions, the Jewish National Council denounced the bombing of the King David.3

For decades the British denied they had been warned. In 1979, however, a member of the British Parliament introduced evidence that the Irgun had indeed issued the warning. He offered the testimony of a British officer who heard other officers in the King David Hotel bar joking about a Zionist threat to the headquarters. The officer who overheard the conversation immediately left the hotel and survived.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/King_David.html

[AirZone]

It will never end...
starts to bore me... because the "israel's" kinda owned him while Geezah brings some very "objective" points..

anyway
we are evil warcrime terrorists bastards and evil jews who makes mazot from palastines young blood
happy ?

[Geezah]

"12,000 in 1845 to nearly 85,000 by 1914" and so Jews immigrated to mostly uninhabited land, which was under the rule of the British and before then under the rule of the ottoman Turks, as that land was at those times and they BOUGHT and PAID for land they went to and started to cultivate it…ok, and? Point?

Btw again, a link to your numbers?

And again I'm sure you would like to know!




The Brits packed up after it was handed over to the UN and as far as any Arabs invaded after rejecting coexistence? yes they rejected for the Arabs refused to recognize any lines that the UN drew up, even though the Jews got mostly uninhabited land in those lines and lines where Jews were a majority (and the Arabs got mostly good land) and then they invaded to wipe out all of the Jews.

That’s them rejecting Jews living there in any lines and its after they invaded and lost, is how we really came into a state.

The call for a state is not how our state was born, for while yes officially we were a state, but if we were to lose after they invaded, not only wouldn’t we have any state, none of us would exist.

I amazed how still eberyone else is at fault, so what about the illegal Jewish immigrants that were coming in the thousand and scuttling there ships or running them aground?





Btw I would like to see your link for that 85,000..ok?

Like I said "I'm sure you would"




I'm sure you would. Well it tends to your credibly as to the numbers you threw down as to the sites you claim them from.

those numbers are in serious question till you can provide where you got them from.

So again where did you get those numbers from?

It doesn't matter what I post, YOU'VE STILL GOT AN ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING ;)

SoI'm sure you would!




The land may have been under British rule but it was still their land, this was after the Arabs helped the British fight the Turks during WW1! what the Arabs did for the Brits have no consequence on what I am saying.

That land was ruled by the ottoman Turks and then by the Brits, period,

And before then it was rued by etc.. and then before then it was ruled by etc..and then even way before then it was the Jews.

So yes if we play this before then game, the Jews have the rightful claim as well.

This is similar to saying that the Romans still have a claim on the Britain? at the time of the mass exodus of IMMIGRANTS the land was HOME to Arabs and the IMMIGRANTS took it away!




What just like the King David hotel where the Jewish terrorists 'issued' a warning then blew it up after sneaking in dressed as Arabs and planted bombs? Also don't forget about the Stern Gang another Jewish terrorist group! yes and I already addressed the king David, for other then that and a few other cases, the rest were against military targets ONLY.

So there were no members of a Jewish terrorist gang who dressed up as Arabs and entered the King David hotel and blew it up?




Secondly I repeat………“The few occasions that Irgun (or a few other smaller groups) did do some wrong things, they did warn civilians to get out first but even if not, the point is that at the time MOST Jews were against those Jewish groups and it was not supported by most (again unlike the Arab terrorists groups that were supported by most Arabs)”



LABOUR (MAPAI) PRIME MINISTER, D. BEN-GURION.

Qualifications: War Criminal, gave the orders that others carried out.

Ben-Gurion and the Haganah became convinced that they would have to drive the British out if they were ever going to get their state. That required unity within the ranks of Zionism and they proposed a joint military campaign to the Irgun and Stern Gang who, until the autumn of 1945, they had solemnly proclaimed to be terrorists, fascists and madmen. And Begin, who, during the Saison, had put up wall posters comparing them to "Quisling and Laval", eagerly accepted. -- Quote from Haber, Menachem Begin, p.146.

Ben-Gurion was head of the Jewish Agency. After the adoption of the united front against the British, Ben-Gurion directed the terrorist "war" from the shadows. At this time, it was he who gave the "green light" for nearly all Jewish terrorist activity. The public relations disaster caused by the King David Hotel bombing, bought the detente with the Irgun and Stern Gang to an end (the Jewish Agency denounced the attack, claiming that the Irgun had violated its specifications as to when the bomb should be set). After directing the 1948 war to conquer Palestine and drive out its inhabitants, he became Prime Minister. An ideas man. It was his idea to create a civil war in Lebanon in order to establish a Maronite government that would align itself with Israel. Although it was difficult to ignite this civil war, their continual efforts over the years were eventually successful (and hundreds of thousands died). A truly evil man.

Terrorist


LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, M. BEGIN.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Leader of the terrorist gang Irgun. Responsible for the Deir Yassin massacre, the bombing of the King David Hotel, etc, etc,...


Terrorist


LIKUD PRIME MINISTER, Y. SHAMIR.

Qualifications: Killer. Terrorist. War Criminal. Operations commander of the terrorist Stern Gang. Together with Stern proposed a war-time alliance with Adolf Hitler and the establishment of a totalitarian Jewish state. Responsible (with Began) for the Deir Yassin massacre. The organiser of two infamous assassinations: the killing of Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident for the Middle East, on 6 November 1944; and the slaying of Count Folke Bernadotte, the UN's special Mediator on Palestine, on 17 September 1948.


Terrorist

If the Israeli public did not agree with groups like the "Stern Gang" and "Irgun" then how did these people get into power?






Haganah, and a few others, was much bigger then all those groups you mentioned and they represented a majority view and their actions were not against civilians at all and they as well as most Jews at the time were against the stern gang and and irgun (which btw were very small groups)

This is unlike the Arabs that were encouraged by the Brits to attack Jewish targets, or if at times they didn’t encourage, they didn’t lift any finger to help defend against the attacks against our civilians, and those Arab attacks were supported by most Arabs.


August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 13,1947. Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

1947 -- 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.

Did these incidents ever happen?



[quote=Geezah]
But the roots of the violence lay deeper in Arab fears of the burgeoning Zionist movement, which aimed to make at least part of British-administered Palestine a Jewish state." So that’s a excuse for you to justify the murder of man women and children? :roll:

Secondly, we bought and paid for land in which we lived in, they had no right to go on a murderous rampage and kill in land we paid for.

Then we agree, the muderoius activitys on both sides is wrong????




You justifying this just make you amongst other things a outright hypocrite when you start moaning and whining on how you don’t like to see any innocents die and how that’s wrong and here you come off as justifying it :roll:

I DON'T LIKE TERRORISTS PERIOD!





From what I read it seemed like the British troops had to defend themselves and Arabs from Jewish attacks, but yes I will agree that I'm sure allot of Brits felt reluctant to help the Jews after all the kidnappings, beatings and murders of British Military personnel? no you read a wrong perspective, for Jews were being attacked by Arabs way before any reprisals by some Jews and this was with the encouragement of the British rulers and masters of that land, so naturally some of the Jews viewed the Arabs attacking and the ones supporting them as our enemies (especially after the white paper and sending back Jews to the concentration camps or shooting at civilains on ships etc..)

Sending Jews back to concentration camps? or do you mean when the illegal immigrant were sent packing?




You have to remember that the Jewish tribes had been scattered, so at this point the only claim on Palestine is through religion. no in Jerusalem, there were always Jews there and yes they can trace back generations.

I'd like to meet one that could go back more than 15 generations?




The rest of Israel was mostly uninhabited land and was not ruled by Arabs and as such Jews immigrated there and bought land and cultivated it.

why are you constantly making out as if the land was worthless before the Jewish settlers arrived?






You have to realize that up until the point of the decision being made to immigrate to Palestine, there were only 12,000 Jews there. .so? And again how many Arabs were there by that point?

Btw again I want to see a credible source for your figures before I really analyze them.

Analyze what, the #s I supplied how are you going to analyze them twist it around and give me your account of HIS-STORY!




Why do you continue to bring up the war in Iraq? as far as I know they aren't relted to what's going on in Israel unless you know something I don't? .no they are related to the person (you) placing your self on a moral high ground when you don’t have even have as much as a dogs leg to stand on.

How am I on the moral high ground? and I don't think my Rotts would like me standing on their legs ;)



Which I do not agree with! Well as a soldier myself, I KNOW your wrong in MOST cases!!

Does it help if I tell you I have quite allot of my family members that have served King/Queen and Country in one way or another ;)


Again in war its sad that civilians get killed but we don’t target them, period!!

But if they get killed like let's say Jame Miller then it's unfortunate?





and how many were under the Zoo that the Palestinians destroyed to blame on the Israeli's? again there isn’t necessarily a tunnel under the zoo, do you not understand what I just wrote before :roll: …I repeat” you might like owning firearms (as do I) but this statement here bellies the fact that you were never a soldier….I mean you obviously have no concept of what a war zone is or how ****y trapped roads are everywhere, how snipers shoot everywhere, just to defend that one tunnel, where ever it may be in that warzone. Other then that, I will leave you with your ignorance on THIS matter Of what a warZONE is)”

Again you are correct in that I have never served my Country but since when has the Civilian answered to the Military? again I'n not prepared to take your word as God.
In Israel when you're in a WARZONE(as you said) is it the main goal to flatten everyhing becuase they may be a threat(please enlighten me as I'm ignorant to the ways of war?)

http://a1112.g.akamai.net/7/1112/492/03312000/news.lycos.com/news/ot_getImage.asp?op=img&id=608819



the palis didn’t destroy any tunnels, no they fought all around and over them to protect their arms supply from being destroyed so they can continue targeting Israelis cities and towns.

Are those Palis driving the bulldozers?




As I'm ignorant to the ways war, I guess that means I should be seen and not heard!
Oh.....
no everyone can be heard but just as well I can point out how ignorant you are in these matters for a further asking if there is a tunnel under the zoo after I just explained to you the facts of a warzone there, just tells me that yes you can be heard and yes again I will show how you sound ignorant.

Did they find any tunnels under the green houses or how about the Olive tree orchard?






Silence from who, i'm against any innocent life being lost!
That’s all nice and dandy that you say this universal proclamation now, but usually I only hear outrage when a zoo is destroyed but when our civilians our are blown up I usually only hear silence and certainly no outrage from you or from a lot like you.

Hey....give me time I've only been over here for a while now!


Fact is you don’t apply universal standards when dishing out your public outrage.

Wow...and you know me so well.....how......should I now don the tin foil hat :roll:




No where have I read that anyone disagreed with the of the Irgun or the Stern Gang, but it's very easy to claim to reject an organisation after the fact, doesn't Yassah Arafat do the same thing? Wrong we rejected some of their actions at the time ….in fact there was almost a civil war between haganha and other groups against them over the way they were acting.

Rehjected them and then ellected some of the senior members into positions of power, I guess that similar to Ted Kennedy :lol:


Secondly I showed you links where then we disagreed, go read them again.

Again pro US-ISRAELI propoganda show me an independent source, lets say from the Dali Lama ;)


Yasser arafat doesn’t reject his groups, for he is a terrorist group and in the past he might have only said a few token words in English, but he never rejected them in Arabic and in fact he has worked and helped plan a lot of terrorist actions that targeted mostly ONLY our civilians.

Almost similar to the guys that have ruled Israel?


And this targeting of our civilians is supported by a clear Majority of Palestinians!!!!!! unlike the Israeli's that didn't support the leaders that weren't put into powere?


Btw I personally don’t reject Irgun, I just reject some of their operations, but the other ones IMO were legitimate and they were not aimed at civilians at all (again unlike the Arab and pali groups where they MOSTLY and ONLY target civilians)..but hey that’s just me ;)

So when it comes down to it you support terrorism more than me!




Is it possible to provide independent sources rather than pro US-Israel propoganda, check out the stuff about the Myths & Facts.
oh so your links are not pro Brit (which then for sure and some say even now was anti Israel) propaganda?? :roll: Listen, my links are from a lot of various sources from that time, go read them and let me see if you can disprove what was written there?……..come on give it a go :D


Well I put the same to you, disporve the information that I've supplied?


Shalom :D

Yeah...laters

[Geezah]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040528/i/r1934119690.jpg
"Watch yourself homeboy or you're next!"

I've always been told, never point a gun at something unless your going to shoot it!

[AirZone]

:cantbeli:
I've always been told...never trust photos when you hadnt see the full PICTURE

gosh..thats so baised
nice propeganda but the forum memembers saw worst than you...

[Golani68]

Geezah

Are you English

so the Brits did no harm

Should we talk about the terrorist acts that have done in Ireland
over the last 500 years

[EvanL]

Geezah

Are you English

so the Brits did no harm

Should we talk about the terrorist acts that have done in Ireland
over the last 500 years
****ing hell man. Dont bring that **** into this.
Its the PIRA and the Ulster Orange commiting terrorist acts.
For someone who gets mad when ppl lecture him on Israels handling of terrorism, you shouldnt try to lecture Brits on it. the problem in NI has been going for much longer than the one in Israel.

[Golani68]

ok

did you read it

What the brits have done in the last 500 years

sure a good few irish people have been killed by the english
to take land

people love to bring up israel past
where should we start

willaim of orange

[citizen-k]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040528/i/r1934119690.jpg
"Watch yourself homeboy or you're next!"

I've always been told, never point a gun at something unless your going to shoot it!

I wonder who stands behind the camera man...

Didn't think that far, did you? ;)

After you'll join the army eat your cornfalkes etc... take a short photographing course, ok? then you'll learn how easy it is to twist reality with a camera. (something your doing great without so far)

[Geezah]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040528/i/r1934119690.jpg
"Watch yourself homeboy or you're next!"

I've always been told, never point a gun at something unless your going to shoot it!

I wonder who stands behind the camera man...

Didn't think that far, did you? ;)

After you'll join the army eat your cornfalkes etc... take a short photographing course, ok? then you'll learn how easy it is to twist reality with a camera. (something your doing great without so far)

Maybe it's James Miller behind the camera(RIP)?

[Geezah]

Geezah

Are you English


Wow.....you're almost as fast as citizen-k:lol: What gave you the impression I may be English? :P

[Geezah]

:cantbeli:
I've always been told...never trust photos when you hadnt see the full PICTURE

gosh..thats so baised
nice propeganda but the forum memembers saw worst than you...

Wow.....nice come back, lets say everything I post is HIS-STORY!

[citizen-k]

Geezah

Are you English


Wow.....you're almost as fast as citizen-k:lol: What gave you the impression I may be English? :P

He is from "Golani"... I'm surprised he was THAT fast ;)

[Javehn]

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040528/i/r1934119690.jpg
"Watch yourself homeboy or you're next!"

I've always been told, never point a gun at something unless your going to shoot it!

Well , Geeza , you are a dumbass . Yea , that is a nice reply from me , and that os all you get , asshole .
I remember another picture that was discusted 4 pages on the forum how the cameraman made it look as the soldier shooting some old bastard , or some kids .

[AirZone]

:cantbeli:
I've always been told...never trust photos when you hadnt see the full PICTURE

gosh..thats so baised
nice propeganda but the forum memembers saw worst than you...

Wow.....nice come back, lets say everything I post is HIS-STORY!

I was talking about the pic, and I saw your history, luckly you are not my teacher.

Lets say the soldiers took that old lady to talk with her son a known hamas terrorists so he will give up.

[Geezah]

:cantbeli:
I've always been told...never trust photos when you hadnt see the full PICTURE

gosh..thats so baised
nice propeganda but the forum memembers saw worst than you...

Wow.....nice come back, lets say everything I post is HIS-STORY!

I was talking about the pic, and I saw your history, luckly you are not my teacher.



Talking about Teachers, you know in North Korea they teach a completly
different HIS-STORY than the one we all know?

[IDFM203]

Wow ok so lets see what we got here.

You throw out numbers but yet refuse to show links to them :roll:

Hmm and you expect those numbers to be taken seriously :roll:

I now say the numbers are way underrepresented, now show me a credible link to disprove that.

Next,

I say the land was mostly uninhabited land and was not ruled by Arabs when Jews immigrated there and they mostly bought and paid for land and then they cultivated what was before mostly barren wasteland for most parts, and yet you counter with basically what amounts to nothing.

Next,

You argue before the Brits and before the ottmen Turks and before yada yada so if you are using the before argument I can also use it as well and I am not beholden to just YOUR definition of how long you think before goes.

Fact, when Jews immigrated, the land was not ruled by the Arabs.

Also another fact most of that land was uninhabited.

Thirdly Arabs also immigrated and like I said, by over 120 percent after the Jews started to turn the land into livable land.

Lastly arab invaded to kill every jew, they lost, we have a state!!

As for all those incidents you brought, I looked over them and I see it conveinantly doest mention that most of those targets were military are Arab terrorist targets and then there were shootouts there, it wasn’t as if all those incidents, Jews went in and just started slaughtering everyone there and targeting civilains, for they were not the target.

Btw a link to where you got that as well? For I do dispute that all that happened, so now that I did that, a link is required.

Also those acts were mostly committed by a few groups and like I said before they were not the majority and most acts did not target civlians.

Ok now on a few point by point counter responses.




I amazed how still eberyone else is at fault, so what about the illegal Jewish immigrants that were coming in the thousand and scuttling there ships or running them aground? illegal settlements?? :roll: Ahh we bought and paid for most of the land we then lived in.

Btw most of the Jews then lived in cities and the settlements again were built on empty barren land.

And no we aren’t perfect but yes it is their fault for refusing any coexistence and then invading to kill every Jew and they lost, so yes that is a legitimate claim now to the land!!!

Btw the Arabs had no such quotas against their immigration which they took advantage of, while the Brits, who aligned themselves with the Arabs against the Jews, made large quotas on the Jews and then when the Jews there were being constantly attacked, what we would just sit there and take it?? No it doesn’t work that way and the immigration was to boost our manpower to help defend the Jews from being systematically wiped out with the help of the Arabs and the Brits.



So there were no members of a Jewish terrorist gang who dressed up as Arabs and entered the King David hotel and blew it up? and English is your first language? :roll: I said clearly before that we did it, but we did warn the civilians to get out and secondly most Jews were against that action at the time as my link before clearly showed you.



Then we agree, the muderoius activitys on both sides is wrong???? yes I said when some Jews acted against civilians it is wrong, but again it was not supported by most Jews, unlike the Arabs acts against the Jewish civilians that were supported by most Arabs.

But still you are a hypocrite for justifying the murder of man women and children in 1929 in Hebron, land btw which Jews bought and paid for.



I DON'T LIKE TERRORISTS PERIOD! well you justified a terrorist act before you hypocrite.

I take your words now to be a fallacious attempt to be a non-partial moralist, but that’s all it is, an attempt for you are far from it.



Sending Jews back to concentration camps? or do you mean when the illegal immigrant were sent packing? first of all sending back and also at times outright shooting them.

Secondly it wasn’t just that, you encouraged and helped the Arabs commit numours terrorist acts against the Jews and you never limited Arab immigration but yet limited Jewish one, so your legality or not is not what’s the issue here.

You are making moral arguments, well stick to moral issues and morally, it was reprehensible as what the Brits did to the Jews there and coming from Nazi Germany and sending them back or putting then in their own concentration camps in Cyprus or even shooting at them, before 1948 in the land they controlled.



I'd like to meet one that could go back more than 15 generations? great so go to Jerusalem :D

It’s a fact that in Jerusalem there has always been Jews there and yes they go back generations!!



why are you constantly making out as if the land was worthless before the Jewish settlers arrived? . don’t put words in my mouth.


No the land was uninhabited and Jews went to mostly uninhabited land and they worked and cultivated it and made it very livable land and after then did we see a lot more Arabs immigrate to Israel.

I say this for it all goes to the fact that Israel didn’t for the most part disposes any Arab in that land that it had before 1948.



Analyze what, the #s I supplied how are you going to analyze them twist it around and give me your account of HIS-STORY! pot calling kettle (or something like that ;) ) :roll:

Twisting it around, no the only one doing that is you…..all I ask for is a simple source and also how many Arabs were there before the times you said and yet you cant answer it……….hmm I wonder why :roll: (well its obvious why ;) )



How am I on the moral high ground? hehe no your defiantly NOT on it but yet you try to put yourself on, thats my point and I tell you , you don’t have even as much as a dogs leg to stand on to start these accusatory finger pointing for it just further shows your hypocrisy,

”Well as a soldier myself, I KNOW your wrong in MOST cases!! And I know we mostly do not target civilians. “


Does it help if I tell you I have quite allot of my family members that have served King/Queen and Country in one way or another ;) ahh? :roll: whats does that have to do with our SOP’s as to what I know we do and don’t do being that I was a soldier in the IDF.

They didn’t serve in my military so they can’t refute what I know and saw and experienced about it.


But if they get killed like let's say Jame Miller then it's unfortunate? !! Listen I am not going to address every case.

Yes in a warzone civilians get killed.

Listen again we don’t mostly target civilians, I say again, if we were there would be no pali left or for sure a lot more then 3000 (which again is a lot less then the Brits and Americans have killed in Iraq)

And that last point has relevance, for they have killed many civilians, now do you believe the Brits and Americans in general target civilians?

Btw when it comes out that a soldier did do a wrong thing (as every military has its bad apples) he is not celebrated by most n Israel and in fact like that tom hardel case, the soldier was arrested and is in trail now.


Again you are correct in that I have never served my Country but since when has the Civilian answered to the Military? again I'n not prepared to take your word as God.
In Israel when you're in a WARZONE(as you said) is it the main goal to flatten everyhing becuase they may be a threat(please enlighten me as I'm ignorant to the ways of war?) you see I don’t know you (nor do I need to wear a tin foil hat, for like the other issue, your quite obvious!!)but yet I was confident that you weren’t a soldier, now that doesn’t mean my word is god, simply it means that I was a soldier and I know when I see pure ignorance from someone and its clear that the ignorance of realties of a warzone that you showed before and now, couldn’t possibly be asked by a soldier, in any military.


Are those Palis driving the bulldozers? so pali’s aren’t shooting from there? :roll: (oh right its not in the pic, so that means palis never shoot from there :roll: )

Btw the U.S. and the Brits also bulldozed trees and things like this for they provide a cover for insurgents, well the same here.

But guess us soldiers don’t know the realties of a warzone and only you do :roll:


Did they find any tunnels under the green houses or how about the Olive tree orchard? wow you still don’t get it….your ignorance now isn’t limited to just basic concepts of war or soldering but now also to basic comprehension.

Its not about if there is a tunnel specifically there, there are tunnels in that warzone, yes thats a fact, however the pali's shoot from everywhere around them to protect their arms supply (the tunnels) which they use to target Israeli cities and towns, now if they would just limit their shooting to just on top of that tunnel, well I can guarantee you there wouldn’t be the amount of damage that we saw.

The fact is they don’t just shoot from there, but from everywhere in that warzone!!



Hey....give me time I've only been over here for a while now! you’ve been here since February….yeah till your zoo outrage I don’t think I heard any outrage from you when our civilians were killed, or even when the other week Israeli family was shot point blank and killed.


Fact is you don’t apply universal standards when dishing out your public outrage.


Wow...and you know me so well.....how......should I now don the tin foil hat :roll: no need to falsely flatter yourself as to warnnr anyone wearing a tin foil hat for you :roll: , your double standards are already very clear for all to see.

This isn’t a tin foil hat matter, but rather quite clear.


Rehjected them and then ellected some of the senior members into positions of powerfirst of all, like I said, most of their organization were not targeting civilians, but when they were, those acts were rejected by most.

As for the leaders, you can’t prove that they were involved in the targeting of civilians at all and as far as I know they weren’t

You cut and pastes don’t at all show how those man were responsible for the targeting of civilians.



Again pro US-ISRAELI propoganda show me an independent source, lets say from the Dali Lama ;) and your brit pro arab links are independent? :roll:

My links are facts, I outright challenge you to disprove what is said there!!!




Almost similar to the guys that have ruled Israel? no we for the most part don’t target civilians, unlike what they mostly ONLY do


unlike the Israeli's that didn't support the leaders that weren't put into powere? again Israelis don’t support the killing of civilians, now those leaders did not target civilians!!


So when it comes down to it you support terrorism more than me! more then you? :roll: …so you admit that you support terrorism :roll:

As for me, no I said I don’t reject those groups for they mostly did not target civilians, but yes I reject the few times some in them did and I say that was wrong.

I outright reject all targeting of civilians and when a Jew does it, I am against it and when some of them did target them, I say its wrong and I dont justify it in any way.


Well I put the same to you, disporve the information that I've supplied? and I did, I showed you my links that took many documents from that time and showed how the case in your links are not put in proper context of actual events there.

Btw I never denied that we didn’t target the king david, simply that we did warn civilians to get out, my links showed that, secondly I did say that when acts against civilians were done, they were not supported by most Israelis, my links showed that!!

Lastly two points

Enough of your cut and paste BS, simply put down the link, for trust me I can also bombard you with reams of cut and pastes..no simply put a link to it.


Secondly just curious, do you know from what laws Israel got the policy for destroying homes of what it suspects as terrorists homes?

(if you don’t know, you are in for one hell of a shock ;) )

Shalom :D

[AirZone]

:cantbeli:
I've always been told...never trust photos when you hadnt see the full PICTURE

gosh..thats so baised
nice propeganda but the forum memembers saw worst than you...

Wow.....nice come back, lets say everything I post is HIS-STORY!

I was talking about the pic, and I saw your history, luckly you are not my teacher.


Talking about Teachers, you know in North Korea they teach a completly
different HIS-STORY than the one we all know?
Good for them... but believe me I know better about my history and what is right or wrong (lets say Jewish self blame like IDFM203 always says really kicks an action in here)