Finnish War - 200 years

[Mangrove]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Porilaistenmarssi.jpg/462px-Porilaistenmarssi.jpg

The Finnish War started on 21st February 1808 when Russian troops crossed the Kymijoki without Declaration of War. As a result of the war one third of Sweden (Finland) was established as a Grand Duchy of Finland and thus started the development of Finnish language as a official language and Finnish democracy. The final step was independence of Finland in 1917.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_War

[Erki]

Had Gustav XI Adolf not been such a stubborn bastard this war might not even have taken place. Let's just play with two alternative outcomes:

1. Sweden-Finland win the war. Would Finland even exist today as a free country?

2. The russians continued south in 1809 occupying the whole of Norrland (north sweden) which then became a part of the Grand Duchy of Finland. Would Norrland have stayed in Finland like Åland after its independence in 1917, rejoined Sweden or would it have become the fifth nordic country?

[Basillicus]

Had Gustav XI Adolf not been such a stubborn bastard this war might not even have taken place. Let's just play with two alternative outcomes:

1. Sweden-Finland win the war. Would Finland even exist today as a free country?

2. The russians continued south in 1809 occupying the whole of Norrland (north sweden) which then became a part of the Grand Duchy of Finland. Would Norrland have stayed in Finland like Åland after its independence in 1917, rejoined Sweden or would it have become the fifth nordic country?

1. I believe it would have happened, after all there are cultural differences between Finns and Swedes that are significant enough, the language being the biggest. Also there was some nationalistic movement already in the early 19th century which hadly would have died away even without this war.

One interesting thing is also how would WW2 have been turned out. In this scenario Finland would have probably been economically slightly stronger (no civil war, lesser/no oppression under Swedish rule in the 20th century), and the Nordic community might have had stronger ties also militarily. Would USSR have attacked Finland and would Germany have attacked Norway? With stronger alliances the attacker would have been at war with the whole region which is mostly pretty unimportant considering the big picture and hardly worth the trouble. Or maybe it would have been divided between USSR and Germany like Poland, Norway and southern Sweden for Germany and Finland and northern Sweden for USSR or something?

2. That's an interesting scenario. I doubt it would have become independent nation, but it's difficult to say would it have become part of Sweden or Finland.

[MoZo]

Maybe a little offtopic, but if Norway, Sweden and Finland united (maybe Denmark too) that would be one kickass country. :-D

Just saying just dont be :bash: all.

[SJumppanen]

Maybe a little offtopic, but if Norway, Sweden and Finland united (maybe Denmark too) that would be one kickass country. :-D

Just saying just dont be :bash: all.
I'd settle for Norway and Denmark only. (maybe Iceland too, if they want to join)

[IronFinn]

Had Gustav XI Adolf not been such a stubborn bastard this war might not even have taken place. Let's just play with two alternative outcomes:

1. Sweden-Finland win the war. Would Finland even exist today as a free country?

2. The russians continued south in 1809 occupying the whole of Norrland (north sweden) which then became a part of the Grand Duchy of Finland. Would Norrland have stayed in Finland like Åland after its independence in 1917, rejoined Sweden or would it have become the fifth nordic country?

1. Most likely not, finnish language would have met the same fate as the irish under english rule. It would have died out as second rate language at its best. Any movement supporting finnish would have been stamped on heavily and I believe that violence would also have been a option while doing that.

Just remember how hard it was to have finnish even recognized as equal language with swedish during the language dispute times and that was when we were ruled by the russians who favoured finnish!

Also, by reading newspapers today you can see how finnish language is treated in Sweden today. It was accepted as official minority language untill recent years though there have been as many finnish speaking as there are swedísh speaking in Finland (percentage) and as long too.

So no way. Russian occupation was the best thing that happened (strangely) to finns and Finland (before russification times).

2. If it would have been part of Finland then it would have remained so, I doubt even young Finland would have accepted part of it to break away.

[funnlander]

1. Most likely not, finnish language would have met the same fate as the irish under english rule. It would have died out as second rate language at its best. Any movement supporting finnish would have been stamped on heavily and I believe that violence would also have been a option while doing that.

Just remember how hard it was to have finnish even recognized as equal language with swedish during the language dispute times and that was when we were ruled by the russians who favoured finnish!

Also, by reading newspapers today you can see how finnish language is treated in Sweden today. It was accepted as official minority language untill recent years though there have been as many finnish speaking as there are swedísh speaking in Finland (percentage) and as long too.

So no way. Russian occupation was the best thing that happened (strangely) to finns and Finland (before russification times).

2. If it would have been part of Finland then it would have remained so, I doubt even young Finland would have accepted part of it to break away.

Yep. we would all be spräking Svenska.
AND OR

you have to remember our status at the times and the overwhelming
cultural influence.

"We are not Swedish and Russian we shall not become"

We have the unique opportunity to learn from both.

Russian rule from 30's forward would have been a catastrophe.
(edit) Soviet Union I mean...

[ting]

I'd settle for Norway and Denmark only. (maybe Iceland too, if they want to join)

You musy be Danishrofl.

I don`t think that feeling is mutual, sorry:D

If you compare 400 years of rule from Copenhagen to 90 years of rule from Sweden you will understand why.

As for the scenario of winning the war. Finland might have gotten independence after 1905, since they would have demanded the same as the Norwegians. And even though the swedes would have found that more difficult than giving up Norway, I think they would have let it go in the end.

[Basillicus]

Finland might have gotten independence after 1905, since they would have demanded the same as the Norwegians. And even though the swedes would have found that more difficult than giving up Norway, I think they would have let it go in the end.

Yeah, I think so too. Of course there's the difference that Norway had been independent while in this scenario Finland would have been just a province of Sweden during pretty much the whole recorded history. Nevertheless nationalism was spreading everywhere during the 19th century and I don't believe there would have been anything the Swedish rulers could have done to stop it in Finland.

[IronFinn]

Might be that Finland could have achieved independence same way as Norway but the damage done to our language by that time would have been probably irrevocable.

[ting]

Might be that Finland could have achieved independence same way as Norway but the damage done to our language by that time would have been probably irrevocable.

I really don`t know much about the language issue, so im using my common sence and knowledge of history;)

Finnish is very different from the other nordic languages, meaning wiping it out would be excedengly difficult. If you think of the nationalist movement in Norway were a few guys created nynorsk(a terrible dialect in my personal opinion) in the 1850s, while under swedish rule, I don`t think the swedes would have had the will to deny the finnish speakers the same right. Remember Sweden changed a lot in the 19th century, and the will to subjugate people was slipping fast.

Also If I remember Norways history correctly, we did all we could to wipe out the different sami languages. We failed, and IMHO our will to do so was much higher than Swedens will to do the same.

[SJumppanen]

You musy be Danishrofl.


Finn actualy.

[ting]

Finn actualy.

Hmm.. I stand corrected:D

[IronFinn]

I really don`t know much about the language issue, so im using my common sence and knowledge of history;)

Finnish is very different from the other nordic languages, meaning wiping it out would be excedengly difficult. If you think of the nationalist movement in Norway were a few guys created nynorsk(a terrible dialect in my personal opinion) in the 1850s, while under swedish rule, I don`t think the swedes would have had the will to deny the finnish speakers the same right. Remember Sweden changed a lot in the 19th century, and the will to subjugate people was slipping fast.

Also If I remember Norways history correctly, we did all we could to wipe out the different sami languages. We failed, and IMHO our will to do so was much higher than Swedens will to do the same.

It might have worked for norwegians but one has to remember that finns were second rate citicens in the kingdom. Finnish language was said to be too primitive and brute for intelligent use therefore useless. Finns themselves were marked as mongolians. This stigma (at the time bad one) was so popular that even in France ethnologists would write to their publications that finns are mongolians even they had never seen one.

I´m not trying flame here btw, this information is available if one wants to find it. Most people just don´t know about it since they don´t care.

As for sami people, well, atleast here in Finland they have lost the language in terms that most of them speak finnish in home and same is second language for them.

[TJ0]

Finnish war reenactment.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8117/1809co5.jpg

[Basillicus]

It would be cool if there would be some sort of joint effort between e.g. Sweden, Finland and Russia to make a (relatively) big budget war movie of some of the wars in 18th and 19th century. I think something like The Patriot (with 500% less patriotism though) and Sharpe movies would be nice; large formations exchanging volleys and some sort of fictious adventures between the battles. There aren't too many good war movies from that era, and this one would have a very unique topic. And at least Finnish war movie scene has always had a fixation with WW2 and I think that topic doesn't have much to give anymore.