Serbia faces crossroads over Kosovo

[LaoSexMachine]

Serbia faces crossroads over Kosovo
By James Robbins
Diplomatic correspondent, BBC News
The attacks on embassies in Belgrade, including the US embassy, were entirely predictable.

The embassies themselves were braced for the danger. The American embassy was empty when the rioters closed in. Most governments had little expectation that Serbia's security forces would do anything serious to stop the mob.


The attackers were angered both by Kosovo's declaration of independence and then the swiftness of moves in Washington and many other capitals to recognise the infant state. The symbolism of Kosovo as a heartland of Serb nationalism was very carefully nurtured and inflamed by Slobodan Milosevic. He may be dead, but the idea is not.
The fact that the ethnic Albanian majority in Kosovo has now broken free, or free to the extent that an internationally supervised form of independence allows, merely reignites a sense of victimhood in the hearts of some - by no means all - of the people of Serbia.
Angry reaction
Will Serbia's government live to regret its failure to protect the American and other embassies?
There is no doubting Washington's anger. This was an attack "by thugs... We have made known to the Serbian government our concern and displeasure that their police force did not prevent this incident," President George W Bush's spokeswoman, Dana Perino, told reporters.
European governments have echoed that.
The US ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, said he was "outraged" and urged condemnation by the UN Security Council.


"The embassy is sovereign US territory. The government of Serbia has a responsibility under international law to protect diplomatic facilities, particularly embassies." The European Union has gone further. The man in charge of EU foreign policy, Javier Solana, says talks with Serbia on a co-operation agreement will now be put on ice until the violence in Belgrade stops.
That accord would be the first symbolic step towards Serbia joining the 27-nation bloc.
So the backlash has started, and Serbia faces a choice. Does it choose a path of rejection, and suffer the consequence - relative isolation in Europe as other Balkan states move slowly towards eventual membership of a huge political and trade bloc?
Or does it choose the path described by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice?
"We want a Serbia that is looking to its future and that future is in Europe," she said.
She said the status of Kosovo and its resolution "would allow Serbia to look forward, and to move on then with what it needs to do".
She was speaking before Kosovo declared its independence, of course. The temperature has fallen dramatically since then.
Road ahead?
So the people of Serbia face a fundamental choice in the next few years.
Serbia's President Boris Tadic likes to suggest that it can pursue two contradictory policies at the same time.
"Serbia will never recognize Kosovo, it wants to preserve its territorial integrity," he said this week. "But neither will it renounce its future membership of the European Union."
Those positions are irreconcilable. Serbia certainly does not have to recognize Kosovo as a precondition for entering years of tortuous negotiation with the EU about eventual membership.
But it is almost impossible to imagine the end of that process - Serbia as a full member of the European Union - as long as it refuses to accept the fact that it has lost Kosovo as part of a new order in the former Yugoslavia.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7258842.stm

[California Joe]

To me, there is nothing more dangerous than people with their backs to the wall who feel they have nothing left to lose.

This could all get very ugly.

[Lt. James Anderson]

To me, there is nothing more dangerous than people with their backs to the wall who feel they have nothing left to lose.

This could all get very ugly.

Especially if they are Slavs.

Russians, Serbs, Poles have already been there quite a few times. imo, the biggest reason Hitler lost the WWII is because he pissed off Russians so much that they hated him more than Stalin.

[KoTeMoRe]

Especially if they are Slavs.

Russians, Serbs, Poles have already been there quite a few times. imo, the biggest reason Hitler lost the WWII is because he pissed off Russians so much that they hated him more than Stalin.

Off topic but:

Pissed as in "we'll use you Soviet Jew-infected insects as sub-human slaves?"

Hardly comparable. Yes they're pissed but but it's far from over and what goes around comes around. Wait and See.

Further more you can't get to Greece without having Serbia in, to form the former huged assed Res Publica Cristianna the EU foresees to establish.

Simply put you can't afford the EU in the region and Serbia out of it. That's a fact.

[daily666]

This article really shows how the West don't really understand Serbia. Do they still think EU agreements are what Serbs have in mind right now? I fully agree with CJ, that this can be messy and I think we, Poles would act the same way if we got screwed like this. Totally unreasonable but, to hell with it.

[Pleonasm]

If these tensions rests then it can really get ugly and I'm especially thinking of the Kosovo Serbs. I think it's quite hard to foresee what will happen, a slowdown is as possible as escalations in Kosovska Mitrovica.

[Brute]

"The embassy is sovereign US territory. The government of Serbia has a responsibility under international law to protect diplomatic facilities, particularly embassies."I find it extremely ironic that US would try to invoke international law when they themselves so blatantly disregarded it recently.

[Basillicus]

I find it extremely ironic that US would try to invoke international law when they themselves so blatantly disregarded it recently.

Well I don't think there are any players in this situation who hasn't disregarded international law recently so the irony works both ways. Everyone seems to bitch about international law when it suits them and dump it when it doesn't. However protection of diplomatic facilities and personel should be a very basic thing, and failure in this should always invoke strong critizism.

[Brute]

Well I don't think there are any players in this situation who hasn't disregarded international law recently so the irony works both ways. Everyone seems to bitch about international law when it suits them and dump it when it doesn't. However protection of diplomatic facilities and personel should be a very basic thing, and failure in this should always invoke strong critizism.


You can deflect and obfuscate as much as you wish. The point continues to stand.
If US doesn't want to play by the rules, then what gives them the right to demand that others do? Besides, what can be more basic than territorial integrity of a country?

[GazB]

However protection of diplomatic facilities and personel should be a very basic thing, and failure in this should always invoke strong critizism.

Can't really see the problem... nobody was hurt and they will probably have to pack up an leave shortly anyway.

Disrespecting US soil of an embassy... confiscation of a fairly large area of Serbian territory... they are not even nearly even yet.

[Basillicus]

Can't really see the problem... nobody was hurt and they will probably have to pack up an leave shortly anyway.

Disrespecting US soil of an embassy... confiscation of a fairly large area of Serbian territory... they are not even nearly even yet.

Oh, I didn't know it was the USA that confiscated Kosovo. :roll:

It's interesting how (at lest significant part of) Serbs are blaming everyone else for the situation and trashing embassies but aren't man enough to recognize that it was mostly their own mistakes in the not-so-distant past that lead to this point. But ofcourse it's easier that way...

[phoebus]

It's interesting how (at lest significant part of) Serbs are blaming everyone else for the situation and trashing embassies like some Africans but aren't man enough to recognize that it was mostly their own mistakes in the not-so-distant past that lead to this point. But ofcourse it's easier that way...

Nice... :cantbeli:

[Telmar]

...
It's interesting how (at lest significant part of) Serbs are blaming everyone else for the situation and trashing embassies like some Africans but aren't man enough to recognize that it was mostly their own mistakes in the not-so-distant past that lead to this point. But ofcourse it's easier that way...

I don't think generalization is the best way to play this one out. Only a part of them actually took part of the attack on the Embassies. But all are unhappy, and they have the right to be.

How long do the Serbs have to pay the highest price of the Yugoslav civil war?

With the recognition of this small, defenseless, totally unsustainable, territory whose people who do not even have a flag, we shoved a knife in their back...and for what Human Right issue today? None.

I express my deepest sympathy to the Serbs. And I hope they have the resolve to move on.

[shatro]

Oh, I didn't know it was the USA that confiscated Kosovo. :roll:

Well my Albanian friend, it was NATO to be precise, and the US had the leading role. Maybe the correct word is NATO occupied the Kosovo rather than "confiscated" it. Happier now?


It's interesting how (at lest significant part of) Serbs are blaming everyone else for the situation and trashing embassies like some Africans but aren't man enough to recognize that it was mostly their own mistakes in the not-so-distant past that lead to this point. But ofcourse it's easier that way...

Cut it with the racism, i hope the mods have noticed that "Africans" remark of yours. So your saying that trashing one's embassy, although highly deplorable, is more significant than occupying and dismembering one's country?!

[Lokos]

It's interesting how (at lest significant part of) Serbs are blaming everyone else for the situation and trashing embassies like some Africans but aren't man enough to recognize that it was mostly their own mistakes in the not-so-distant past that lead to this point. But ofcourse it's easier that way...

Previously, I found your posts humorous. Now, you are becoming a clown. And clowns aren't as funny as they think they are.

Lokos

[Ana]

well Kosova finally is free of serbian XXXXXX...this counts...

[Hollis]

well Kosova finally is free of serbian nazism...this counts...


Ana, your new here. Please read the forum rules and stickies. Keep it civil. This means do not use adjectives that are excessive. Please read the other warning in this thread. We will not tolerate flame baiting, petty nationalism, racism, or excessive name calling.

Avoiding this, will make you stay here much more pleasant.



Thanks,

Hollis

[shatro]

well Kosova finally is free of serbian XXXXXX...this counts...

This guy was banned multiple times before, his name was RENEA or something. He keeps posting pics of him self that's how i recognized him.
Besides his nickname is the short from Albanian National Army, which is a terrorist organisation.

[KoTeMoRe]

This guy was banned multiple times before, his name was RENEA or something. He keeps posting pics of him self that's how i recognized him.
Besides his nickname is the short from Albanian National Army, which is a terrorist organisation.

Well it was also one of the components of Enver Hoxha's UCSH in WW2, Afghan National Army, and I can go on.

But if you got him by his balls, feel free to kick his ass out.

[KoTeMoRe]

Oh, I didn't know it was the USA that confiscated Kosovo. :roll:

It's interesting how (at lest significant part of) Serbs are blaming everyone else for the situation and trashing embassies but aren't man enough to recognize that it was mostly their own mistakes in the not-so-distant past that lead to this point. But ofcourse it's easier that way...

So wich part of bombing, kicking out the JNA, and gaining control of Kosovo is uncoherent with the term confiscation?

[porcupine]

A friend sent me this...very interesting

Former Envoy to Yugoslavia and Gen. Wesley Clark square off
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UgobJ8YnUIk

And the JTF get involved on Kosovo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xYxLJTpEquY

[Calanen]

I find it extremely ironic that US would try to invoke international law when they themselves so blatantly disregarded it recently.

Which international law do you mean? Im not saying you are wrong - I am just interested in which law you are referring to. International law is very difficult stuff, it would be interesting to hear from someone else who has an interest in this subject.

[Stonewall71]

Which international law do you mean? Im not saying you are wrong - I am just interested in which law you are referring to. International law is very difficult stuff, it would be interesting to hear from someone else who has an interest in this subject.

UNITED NATIONS



Resolution 1244 (1999)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 4011th meeting,
on 10 June 1999



(...)

Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,

(...)

Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo;

(...)

FULL TEXT OF RESOLUTION HERE
http://www.nato.int/Kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm

[Calanen]

I dont see that the recognition of Kosovo is a breach of international law or Resolution 1244. The part about territorial integrity of Yugoslavia - is only a preamble of intention, it doesnt require anyone to do or not do anything in particular. Kosovo unilaterally declared independence, and certain countries then decided to recognise them, others will not. I do not believe that there would be anything illegal or unlawful in so doing.

[Brute]

Which international law do you mean? Im not saying you are wrong - I am just interested in which law you are referring to. International law is very difficult stuff, it would be interesting to hear from someone else who has an interest in this subject.


Helsinki Accords

Resolution 1244

"Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and
territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States
of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2"

[Brute]

I dont see that the recognition of Kosovo is a breach of international law or Resolution 1244.

I do.


The part about territorial integrity of Yugoslavia - is only a preamble of intention, it doesnt require anyone to do or not do anything in particular.No, but the Helsinki Final Act cited in it does. They were just reaffirming their commitment to remain within the framework of that agreement.


Kosovo unilaterally declared independence, and certain countries then decided to recognise them, others will not. I do not believe that there would be anything illegal or unlawful in so doing.That's a simplistic view, almost to the point of being naive.

The unilateral declaration itself was an illegal act, and those who supported it are complicit in it.

[Amateur]

Which international law do you mean?

I dont see that the recognition of Kosovo is a breach of international law or Resolution 1244

Apart from Resolution 1244 about Kosovo, there is the wider question of how Kosovo independence was achieved, i.e. through illegal use of force and violation of the principle of territorial integrity. Let me quote some parts of the United Nations Nations Charter:



Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following principles:

The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
[...]
[...]
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
[...]
[...]
Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.Chapter VII

Article 39
The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Article 41
The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.

Article 42
Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.

Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security.

As you see from the above, the use of armed force is against international law, unless (a) it is used as self defense in case of armed attack against a member of the UN (which was not the case since Serbia had not attacked its attackers, US and NATO) or (b) it is authorized by the Security Council of the United Nations (which authorization was not obtained by the attackers). So the bombardment of Serbia by the US and NATO in 1999 was in fact a blatant violation of international law, comparable, say, with Iraq's attack on Kuwait in 1990.
The declaration and recognition of independence of a region belonging to the nation illegally attacked, constitutes the final act of that illegal attack and thus the final pin in the coffin of international law.

The Serbs have every right to be furious about the treatment their country has gotten in the hands of the "democratic and civilized West". And, to turn from morality and legality to strategy and politics, this will prove to be a grave mistake on the "West"'s part, because Serbia is, and always will be - for reason's of geography - a strategically vital country, which is inhabited by a proud and historic people. Its memory will last much longer than the time it will need to recover, and that memory will also determine its strategic choices.

[Switek]

UNITED NATIONS



Resolution 1244 (1999)

Adopted by the Security Council at its 4011th meeting,
on 10 June 1999



(...)

Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2,

(...)

Authorizes the Secretary-General, with the assistance of relevant international organizations, to establish an international civil presence in Kosovo in order to provide an interim administration for Kosovo under which the people of Kosovo can enjoy substantial autonomy within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and which will provide transitional administration while establishing and overseeing the development of provisional democratic self-governing institutions to ensure conditions for a peaceful and normal life for all inhabitants of Kosovo;

(...)

FULL TEXT OF RESOLUTION HERE
http://www.nato.int/Kosovo/docu/u990610a.htm

The key is that Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has not been existing since June, 3rd 2006, when Montenegro declared independence... ;)

[shatro]

The key is that Federal Republic of Yugoslavia has not been existing since June, 3rd 2006, when Montenegro declared independence... ;)

But Kosovo was legally and by every other means just a province inside Serbia. That fact isn't affected by the split between two republics who constituted FRY. Also Serbia is the legal successor of FRY.

[Switek]

But Kosovo was legally and by every other means just a province inside Serbia. That fact isn't affected by the split between two republics who constituted FRY. Also Serbia is the legal successor of FRY.


Agree, but you know how it is: in one aspect its recognized as a legal successor in others it's not such clear...

[Pleonasm]

Agree, but you know how it is: in one aspect its recognized as a legal successor in others it's not such clear...Is this irony targeting hack lawyers and their crappy arguments or a real opinion?

[Switek]

Is this irony targeting hack lawyers and their crappy arguments or a real opinion?

In real world a law is created by stricte power the rest is just justification...

p-)

[Onslo]

The Turkish army is attacking the "oppressed" Kurds again.
When will NATO be bombing Turkey?

[daily666]

The Turkish army is attacking the "oppressed" Kurds again.
When will NATO be bombing Turkey?

Good point. Turkey would have to bomb itself...p-)

[Ender Wiggin]

In real world a law is created by stricte power the rest is just justification...

p-)

Indeed, lol.

Imho, international law has mechanical properties of bone: it looks rigid, it feels rigid and you think it is rigid, yet you can bend it quite a lot. Until it breaks, that is.

(Bone, in fact, is mechanically anisotropic - strongest in compression, weakest in shear and intermediate in tension) :)

[Pleonasm]

In real world a law is created by stricte power the rest is just justification...

p-)Well said.:|

[MJC9678]

When NATO went into Kosovo they found more than Serb's fighting the KLA. There were volunteers from the entire Balkan area fighting the KLA. This is a region that has a long memory. Neither the Catholics nor the Orthodox are willing to give up a piece of their home land to muslims AGAIN without a fight. This is a deep seated hate the leaders of the west just do not understand.

One of the worst moves the US has EVER made was getting involved in this. We should have left it to the EU. Yet, not only did we get into it, we picked the wrong side. For the last ~10 years, Saudi money has flowed into the area stoking the muslim fundamentalist fire. They are training a whole new generation of fanatics to unleash on Europe.

[daily666]

In real world a law is created by stricte power the rest is just justification...

p-)

As a lawyer, I strongly disagree* p-)






*just kiddin'

[Switek]

As a lawyer, I strongly disagree* p-)






*just kiddin'

How much for your advice? ;)

[Peris]

One of the worst moves the US has EVER made was getting involved in this. We should have left it to the EU. Yet, not only did we get into it, we picked the wrong side. For the last ~10 years, Saudi money has flowed into the area stoking the muslim fundamentalist fire. They are training a whole new generation of fanatics to unleash on Europe.


all true. i wish you were a US diplomat:)

Bosnian On Trial For Attempt To Bomb US' Vienna Embassy (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129327)

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3065868#post3065868



Six Charged in Plot To Attack Fort Dix

Shnewer also allegedly said: "When you got a military base, you need mortars and RPGs."
Three defendants are ethnic Albanian brothers from the former Yugoslavia who operated a roofing business in Cherry Hill and lived in the United States (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/related-topics.html?tid=informline&subject=United+States) illegally: Eljvir Duka, 23, Dritan Duka, 28, and Shain Duka, 26. A sixth defendant, Agron Abdullahu, 24, also an ethnic Albanian born in the former Yugoslavia, is charged with helping the Dukas illegally obtain firearms.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/08/AR2007050800465_2.html