REQ- Luftwaffe using captured Allied aircraft.

[KEEPER0311]

I've heard a few faint stories of Germany using P-51's and other allied aircraft(keeping orginial markings) to get into the bomber formations and cause confusion, and havoc. Shooting down allied bombers and fighters in the process. Now my question, is there any truth to these stories? Pictures of german aircrews with their captured planes.

Thanks.

[Son of Damian]

I've never heard of anyhting like that. The Germans did have a few flyable P-51s, P-47s, P-38s, Hurricanes, and Spitfires fall into there hands but they were only flown to test performance characteristics IIRC.

A P-38 fell into Italian hands and was flown several times including an attack on a bomber formation that downed a B-24. The 87 octane fuel the Italians had wasn't good enough for the P-38's engines which crapped out after too much 87 octane. The Italians also acquired a Bristol Beaufighter after the pilot became disoriented on his way to Malta. This was also put into active service but I don't remember any other details.

[Nephilim]

yes its true.
im only aware of these:

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/aircraft/b17.jpg

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Spitfire_MkIX_nazicaptured_wartimecolour.jpg

the b17 was definately used for a secret raid back then.
cant find a sourcenow tho.

[Insane Tadpole]

I remember watching a video I believe about the Germans using a Spitfire in still in its British paint job so they could do some recon in the Africa campaign.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Germans used captured b-17's and B-24's to get into formation amongst allied bomber groups to gather intel and such.

[Briggs]

KG200 flew captured Allied aircraft

[Midav]

Not Luftwaffe, but still an interesting story...

There are many incarnations of the B-17. For instance the prototype YB-40 saw actual combat. It was an attempt at providing long range escort for the bombers. P-38's were having cold weather mechanical problems with their Allison engines, and no other long range escort craft were forthcoming. Overall the program was considered a failure, but a interesting attempt none the less. They removed the bomb carrying capacity, added a chin and top turrets, dual .50 waist gunners, and armor plating for the crew. Unfortunately it couldn't keep up with the regular 17's after they had dropped their payloads.

One of them was involved in an interesting encounter. It bagged an Italian ace, Guido Rossi. In 1943 a P-38 ran out of fuel and ditched outside Sardinia. The pilot was overwhelmed by locals before he could use his pistol to ignite the tanks and burn the craft. Rossi had the clever idea of using the captured P-38 to kill wounded B-17's returning from bombing missions as stragglers. He bagged several bombers this way. One B-17 Pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher survived an attack, and had trouble convincing others that he was shot down by a 'friendly'.

Fisher was persistent and obtained command of a prototype YB-40 gunship, and flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the bombers trying to lure out the 'Phantom' P-38. As intelligence was gathered in Italy, they discovered Rossi and his captured '38 did indeed exist and had a wife in Constantine. Allies occupied this city, so when the nose art was applied to the YB-40, the artist used a photo of Rossi's wife, and named the gunship after her, 'Gina'.

Fisher flew a mission on August 31st that year, and was actually damaged in the bombing raid, so with two engines out, the YB-40 was even slower, and flew back completely solo. Sure enough, a P-38 approached, one engine feathered, and asked to join up for the trip back in very good english. Fisher almost fell for the same trap again. With the extra firepower of the friendly P-38 along, everything was being unloaded, guns, ammo, armor plate, anything to keep the YB-40 in the air. At this point Rossi came over the radio with an innocent question. "Gina, nice name. Your girl?" Fisher froze and ordered his men to keep their guns, and started baiting Rossi with details of his 'relationship' with Gina of Constantine.

Rossi became enraged, fired up the 'dead' engine, and circled around, intending to fire right through the nose, cockpit and the entire length of the YB-40. The '40 had an innovation that was later added to all B-17's, a chin turret. As Rossi came in, he faced down a total of 8 forward firing .50's. As the P-38 came apart Rossi even tried to ram the YB-40, but could not maintain flight. He ditched and was picked up by Allied pilot rescue and remained a prisoner for the remainder of the war.

Lt. Harold Fisher received the Distinguished Flying Cross for the encounter, and Major Fisher was killed during a crash in the Berlin Airlift. Former Lt. Guido Rossi attended his funeral out of respect.

http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/004005.html

[afreu]

Interesting story!

[Hutz]

Interesting story!

X2, that's incredible.

[Oneto15]

I've heard a few faint stories of Germany using P-51's and other allied aircraft(keeping orginial markings) to get into the bomber formations and cause confusion, and havoc. Shooting down allied bombers and fighters in the process. Now my question, is there any truth to these stories? Pictures of german aircrews with their captured planes.

Thanks.


Re; KG200.

Check out the buttons at the bottom of this page;-

http://www.kg200.org/history1.html

[He219]

I was just going to post it:
http://www.kg200.org/historyac1.html

also
http://www.bill-freeman.net/me/eighthaf/punchboard.htm
and
http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3197
and
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/b17fortress.html

[nemowork]

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/P38_Italian_16dd373.jpg (http://imagesocket.com/view/P38_Italian_16dd373.jpg)

You mean this P38?

The story i've got is that the pilot got lost and landed in Sicily instead of Tunisia and a mechanic managed to block his escape with a truck before he realised his mistake.

Orr it might belong to Martin Monti who deserted from the USAAF in India to Italy with a stolen P38

[He219]

Orr it might belong to Martin Monti who deserted from the USAAF in India to Italy with a stolen P38
India, that's a long haul to Italy even in a P38.
;)
I was under the impression he stole a P38 in Naples and defected to occupied Milan in 44.

[nemowork]

Sorry, i worded myself badly. From what i remember he was stationed in India and made his way to Italy where he pinched the P-38.

Mind you thats going back to an article i read about 2 years back so i might be slightly off?

[wasser]

This is no proof of the luftwaffe using captured aircraft with American markings but...

My grandfather was in a B-24 bomb group in Italy in 1944. I've read many accounts of missions and have read several where "friendly" aircraft would attempt to slip into bomber formations. I don't recall all the specifics but I do know formations were not friendly to any aircraft joining the formation unless they had radio contact or recognized the plane from their unit or a sister unit. Most typically, aircraft were warned away with bursts.

I never read an account of one actually making it into a formation or causing "havoc".

[wasser]

Here is an account from a B-17 pilot (http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/m_87883/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#120189).


I know that captured B17s were flown by germans. I don't know of any that joined the formations , but they did fly along with the formation ,but out of gun range sending info to flak batteries

[wasser]

Here is another account (http://www.armyairforces.com/forum/fb.asp?m=146512) were the pilot previously quoted was apparently flying an unmarked B-17 (I'm assuming it didn't have unit markings but had USAAF markings) and had joined another group.


ask Jules...he mentions joining the 2nd BG with a brand new B-17 with no markings, and dropping bombs with them...only finding out later in talking with a member of the 2nd BG, that the 2nd BG had orders to shoot him down, if he did not drop his bombs with them.

[filochard]

http://batfredland.free.fr/Foe_D520all.jpg

http://batfredland.free.fr/Foe_Ms-406.jpg

Dewoitine D520 (top) and Morane Saulnier MS406.

D520: The best french fighter but only 40 were available in May/June 40 (about to be delivered 700 / month)
Some seized after the invasion of the french "free" zone end 42: 125 for the Luftwaffe, 44 for the Regia Aeronautica.
Served mostly for training.

MS406: used by the Luftwaffe for training too but a lot were used by Finland against our Soviet allie with some succes.

[He219]

Here's an image of a DC-3 captured almost intact:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3903/33652145ec9.jpg p-)

[Indiana Jones]

http://batfredland.free.fr/Foe_D520all.jpg

http://batfredland.free.fr/Foe_Ms-406.jpg

Dewoitine D520 (top) and Morane Saulnier MS406.

D520: The best french fighter but only 40 were available in May/June 40 (about to be delivered 700 / month)
Some seized after the invasion of the french "free" zone end 42: 125 for the Luftwaffe, 44 for the Regia Aeronautica.
Served mostly for training.

MS406: used by the Luftwaffe for training too but a lot were used by Finland against our Soviet allie with some succes.
Said French planes were predominantly used for advanced pilot training, aerobatics etc. and killed quite a number of trainees, as their throttle valves worked diametrically opposed to German aircraft, which turned out to be fatal when doing stall drills, slow approaches, etc.

[afallan]

Here's an image of a DC-3 captured almost intact:
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3903/33652145ec9.jpg p-)

Unless your joking, then I believe this is from the 1976 film "The Eagle Has Landed." Judging by the quality of the photo, it looks pretty "recent." Also it appears that the guy in the back has his hair permed and is wearing bell bottoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_Has_Landed_%28film%29

[He219]

Lighten up Francis!
:lol:

[Warden]

Wild Blue by Stpehen Ambrose has an account of a Catured B-24 slipping into Bomber formations.

[angel fidias]

The German capture a large number of Allied airplanes, a few in flying conditions, first in Noruega and later in France, but never use this airplanes in war operations, they only use for studies the tecnology of this aricraft.

[[WDW]Megaraptor]

I never read an account of one actually making it into a formation or causing "havoc".

They didn't use those tactics to down Allied aircraft, just to follow the formation and report on its speed, heading, altitude etc...

The Germans also used captured Allied bombers to train fighter pilots in tactics for how to attack bomber formations IIRC.

[wasser]

The German capture a large number of Allied airplanes, a few in flying conditions, first in Noruega and later in France, but never use this airplanes in war operations, they only use for studies the tecnology of this aricraft.

Are you certain of this?

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3170

I believe you'll have to register to read that but it's alleged to be an original report on B-17 A3 + BB from KG.200 that was used to drop agents. It was apparently shot down by Allied forces and the German POW's who crewed the B-17 were the source of the information in the report.

Also, what of all the first hand accounts by bomber crews of aircraft shadowing their formations? Again, I said this isn't conclusive proof, but how can you so decisively cast their accounts aside?


Megaraptor;3073546']They didn't use those tactics to down Allied aircraft, just to follow the formation and report on its speed, heading, altitude etc...

The Germans also used captured Allied bombers to train fighter pilots in tactics for how to attack bomber formations IIRC.

I'm aware of the purpose of the aircraft shadowing bomber formations. I think this is just a matter of semantics as I don't call that "havoc". When I considered the OP's words it made it sound like these aircraft were in the formations causing confusion and shooting up the boxes or stragglers.

And the Germans weren't the only one using captured aircraft for research. This is a photo from my grandfather's album. It shows a FW 190 in American markings. It was probably taken in the spring of 1944 in the area of Foggia, Italy. I have no further information on this aircraft.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44824&stc=1&d=1204064114

[ARGAR FORKBEARD]

Unless your joking, then I believe this is from the 1976 film "The Eagle Has Landed." Judging by the quality of the photo, it looks pretty "recent." Also it appears that the guy in the back has his hair permed and is wearing bell bottoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eagle_Has_Landed_%28film%29



thats Micheal Caine on the right!!! its from The eagle has landed as you said

[TheKiwi]

And the Germans weren't the only one using captured aircraft for research. This is a photo from my grandfather's album. It shows a FW 190 in American markings. It was probably taken in the spring of 1944 in the area of Foggia, Italy. I have no further information on this aircraft.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44824&stc=1&d=1204064114


This looks awfully model like, no offense to your grandfather.

[Kilgor]

And US star markings are wrong.

[Billy No Mates]

And US star markings are wrong.

One per wing.

Perhaps they were taking a belt and braces approach,saying as it was an enemy aircraft .

[Nephilim]

@Kilgor
not necessarily.
if you look at some old hellcats and wildcats you´ll find that they have identical markings and layout.
also seen similar markings on b-17´s but with just one star on the top/bottom side.
als theres been some stars with 2 "wings" and some with a red or yellow rim around.

btw that fw190 photo is a model photoshopped into a photo.

also it doesnt need to mean that such planes were flown by the luftwaffe.
many german and japanese planes were captured by the allies and then flown with new markings for evaluation purposes.

[PrinzEugen]

thats Micheal Caine on the right!!! its from The eagle has landed as you said

..and Sven Bertil Taube on the left. Hence the pirate smiley He219 added.

[nemowork]

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/CapturedB24ae2.jpg (http://imagesocket.com/view/CapturedB24ae2.jpg)

[nemowork]

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/p38gerxfe5.jpg (http://imagesocket.com/view/p38gerxfe5.jpg)

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/wulf_hound_lrg14395bb.jpg (http://imagesocket.com/view/wulf_hound_lrg14395bb.jpg)

[wasser]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=44934&stc=1&d=1204156015


This looks awfully model like, no offense to your grandfather.

No offense taken. I forgot to mention my grandfather was a model person and part of the 1/48th. ;) They flew model aircraft out of southern Italy and bombed model factories. :p


And US star markings are wrong.

I'll be sure to update the past in (http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3135/18wb.png) its (http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/pays/etats_unis.html) transgressions (http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/Dauntless-RNZAF-1.shtml). :p


@Kilgor
btw that fw190 photo is a model photoshopped into a photo.


See the top comment. :D

[Kilgor]

We sure got owned :(

But you have to admit, the first pic does look like a model

[wasser]

ehhe =)

actually, it never even occurred to me it might look like a model, but then I had the benefit of seeing it in a dusty old album surrounded by other war time photos. :D

[TheKiwi]

No offense taken. I forgot to mention my grandfather was a model person and part of the 1/48th. They flew model aircraft out of southern Italy and bombed model factories.
:D
Glad you didn't take offence.

I have seen some models of that particular FW-190. Apparently it was used as a squadron hack for a while.

[wasser]

Something interesting (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt/axis-use-captured-us-aircraft.html) I stumbled upon - take it for what ya will:



"Axis Use of Captured U.S. Aircraft" from Tactical and Technical Trends
A short intelligence report on German and Japanese use of captured U.S. aircraft during WWII, from Tactical and Technical Trends (http://www.lonesentry.com/intelbulletin/tt_trends.html), No. 33, September 9, 1943.

[DISCLAIMER: The following text is taken from the U.S. War Department publication Tactical and Technical Trends. As with all wartime intelligence information, data may be incomplete or inaccurate. No attempt has been made to update or correct the text. Any views or opinions expressed do not necessarily represent those of the website.]



AXIS USE OF CAPTURED U.S. AIRCRAFT

The use of captured U.S. aircraft by the Axis countries should be seriously contemplated, in view of certain incidents which have occurred during the last few months both in the Pacific and over Europe.
Early in the year, there were two distinct occasions where unidentified U.S. Navy planes were observed in the Pacific area. One hovered over one of our task forces for a good part of a day, apparently on a reconnaissance flight. Another failed to respond to proper recognition signals. It is believed that some of these planes may have been captured by the Japanese and are in use for reconnaissance purposes.
On the Western front, sightings of B-17's apparently enemy operated, are increasing. Returning from one recent mission, the first wing of our heavy bombers was joined by one unidentified B-17 which accompanied the formation until near the German coast when it met some twin-engine enemy planes and turned back with them. While the purpose of this particular maneuver remains in doubt, the inherent dangers are obvious, although to date no attempts to imitate American markings have been observed. This is further illustrated by a recent report that on the return flight from an attack on a town in central Italy, one of a number of unescorted B-17's was destroyed and three damaged by a P-38 marked with a swastika which made five determined attacks on the formation. The next day, during a return flight from northwest Sicily, a formation of light bombers was trailed by a tan-colored P-38 for forty miles before it turned back towards Italy. Photo reconnaissance has indicated the presence of one of these fighters on a nearby Italian airdrome. On another occasion over France, a P-47 was observed flying in company with an Me-109 and another enemy plane.
In addition, a Fortress has been photographed at a German Air Force experimental station and reports that the enemy has in his possession examples of other U.S. aircraft in good condition have been received from time to time.
While all such information must be treated with some reserve, due to the possibility of mistakes in recognition under the difficult conditions which usually apply, the possibility that the enemy may continue to use captured aircraft against us cannot be dismissed, although the practical difficulties involved in such operations might be thought to outweigh other considerations.


:D
Glad you didn't take offence.

I have seen some models of that particular FW-190. Apparently it was used as a squadron hack for a while.

I respect the skeptic for the critical thinkers they are. :up:

[Darth Vidar]

Here is a link to an e-book about the KG.200 unit. I found it some time ago while looking for info on the unit. Someone has taken the time to scan a paperbook and convert it into a pdf file....

Download = rapidshare.

The download links at the bottom of the page should still be working, while the original ones are dead.


http://avaxsphere.com/ebooks/kg200theluftwaffesmostsecretunit.html

[Mattsky]

Thanks to our resident MP Aussie Military historian DrakeGoodman from his family's collection

Luftwaffe Hurricane in the ME

From the Australians at War thread