Torture and Humiliation in German schools?

[Argyll]

My My My My.............whatever can this mean? ;)

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13106204,00.html

[UkrainianAmerican]

tsk tsk tsk.

[Marmot1]

court-matrial them ;) and their commander to ;)

[moughoun]

So your all comparing what these muppet's did to what happened in Iraq :roll: , yes trained adult soldier's vs a couple of 18 year old secondary schoolkid's, wow :cantbeli:

[UkrainianAmerican]

So your all comparing what these muppet's did to what happened in Iraq :roll: , yes trained adult soldier's vs a couple of 18 year old secondary schoolkid's, wow :cantbeli:
Many soldiers are around the same age :roll:

[Shiruzu]

:roll:

If anyone wants to compare this with the acts of Abu-Ghuraib:

-The stundent beaten was not under control of the other students, like the prisoners in Iraq under control of the guards.
-The Student had the chance to defend himself (although it wouldn't have been so successfull)
-Yes, he had to suck a steel rod, but its not as shamefull as for a muslim standing naked in front of a woman! Several ex-prisoners have allready left their familys and hometowns, because they felt too ashamed!

BTW, this topic is made for flaming ;)

[Shiruzu]

So your all comparing what these muppet's did to what happened in Iraq :roll: , yes trained adult soldier's vs a couple of 18 year old secondary schoolkid's, wow :cantbeli:
Many soldiers are around the same age :roll:

This was a "special"-class, in which these acts happened! Most of them haven't even reached the 8. grade in school! So i wouldn't compare these idiots with the prisonguards...

[cut]

So your all comparing what these muppet's did to what happened in Iraq :roll: , yes trained adult soldier's vs a couple of 18 year old secondary schoolkid's, wow :cantbeli:
Many soldiers are around the same age :roll:

not those national guard ones, and all soldiers are trained

[Secret Squirrel]

what was the point of starting this thread?

[Shiruzu]

what was the point of starting this thread?

Maybe showing, that german students are as bad as us-troops?
I don't know, but its made for flaming, specially by people, who don't even know all the facts... :cantbeli:

[Jack Mehoff]

Nothing is wrong with this thread. Just keep all you anti-US get off your high horse and divert your attention to something else. Anti-American threads get tiresome at some point or another.

[dacanadianbomb]

Just another part of human nature we dont like to admit to.
I didnt see the thread starter making any comparisons so I dont think its the point of the thread either.

Everyone stop jumping to conlusions here, no point in starting this stupid Anti/Pro US BS flaming rubbish. Just a waist of bandwidth , there will never be a winner.

[Argyll]

what was the point of starting this thread?

Maybe showing, that german students are as bad as us-troops?
I don't know, but its made for flaming, specially by people, who don't even know all the facts... :cantbeli:

This topic was made by me to point out that abuse and ill treatment does not solely belong to the USA ,there were those from a region who starting going on about the Moral high ground when it seems their country was no better than anyone elses ;) ...isn't it funny how they all run to defend an action and immediately try to distance it from what it boils down to......ABUSE.................who has the bad taste in their mouth's now?

who was it that said about facts?..........double standards when it was the US troops and the UK troops who had the finger pointed at them,where was the "innocent until proven guilty "quotes from these guys who are not liking this one bit.............hey guys........if the shoe fits! ;)

[Secret Squirrel]

what was the point of starting this thread?

Maybe showing, that german students are as bad as us-troops?
I don't know, but its made for flaming, specially by people, who don't even know all the facts... :cantbeli:

This topic was made by me to point out that abuse and ill treatment does not solely belong to the USA ,there were those from a region who starting going on about the Moral high ground when it seems their country was no better than anyone elses ;) ...isn't it funny how they all run to defend an action and immediately try to distance it from what it boils down to......ABUSE.................who has the bad taste in their mouth's now?

who was it that said about facts?..........double standards when it was the US troops and the UK troops who had the finger pointed at them,where was the "innocent until proven guilty "quotes from these guys who are not liking this one bit.............hey guys........if the shoe fits! ;)

again, what was the point? can you find another recent (say last year or 2) military related prison abuses by other countries?

[Jack Mehoff]

Abuse is abuse, right? Why the double standard?

[Herrmannek]

Abuse is abuse, right? Why the double standard?
It makes people fill good

[Argyll]

Abuse is abuse, right? Why the double standard?

Bingo Jack..............ABUSE is ABUSE,it's irrelevant whether done by the Military or the Police,such as the Eiglestien case(again in Grmany),people have posted here that no amount of abuse is tolerated,this is why the Al graib case are just that..........Abuse cases,there is no difference in the actions of individuals,both cases are abhorrent are they not?

[Secret Squirrel]

Abuse is abuse, right? Why the double standard?

actually abuse isnt abuse as suggested in the german example and the u.s example as has already been clearly pointed out. If you want to compare bullying in german schools and american or whoever schools, go right ahead. If you want to compare beating, torturing and killing prisoners under military authority, then find examples that suit the argument.

[Jack Mehoff]

Great! now the entire U.S. military get blame because a few U.S. soldiers misbehave.

Can I start generalizing Islam now, please?

[Argyll]

Abuse is abuse, right? Why the double standard?

actually abuse isnt above in the german example and the u.s example as has already been clearly pointed out. If you want to compare bullying in german schools and american or whoever schools, go right ahead. If you want to compare beating, torturing and killing prisoners under military authority, then find examples that suit the argument.

Are you seriously telling us that nothing in the German atricle is related to the Al graib in any shape or form?



A group of students accused of torturing and humiliating a classmate in a two-month ordeal have gone on trial in Germany.

The students allegedly filmed the "systematic torture" of their 18-year-old classmate.


Grainy footage of the incidents - in which the victim is clearly seen being kicked and humiliated - have previously been played on German television.

The trial is taking place behind closed doors at the Hildesheim children's court in central Germany.

Eleven suspects are charged variously with causing bodily harm, extortion and coercion over beatings inflicted on their classmate from September last year.

According to prosecutors, the teenager was struck, stripped and humiliated at Hildesheim's Werner-von-Siemens vocational school about twice a week.

They claim his classmates at the school knew about or were involved in the "systematic torture", which began just two weeks after the victim arrived.

The teenager was forced to expose his genitals, eat cigarette filters and chalk, and was punched or beaten with objects including sticks and a screwdriver.

His head was covered some of the time with a plastic bucket.

The mistreatment, which was captured on camera, is said to have taken place in a storeroom during school hours.

The victim had several marks on his face, abdomen and arms from the attacks and developed psychological problems.

Speaking outside the court, defence lawyer Henning Sonnenberg was unable to explain the brutality. "There was no apparent motive," he said.

Three days of hearings have been scheduled.

Think again SS everything highlighted here has been highlighted by the media as to what took place at Al graib,and some forum members took great delights at pointing this out.........humble pie tastes like **** doesn't it?

[Shiruzu]

Abuse is abuse, right? Why the double standard?

actually abuse isnt above in the german example and the u.s example as has already been clearly pointed out. If you want to compare bullying in german schools and american or whoever schools, go right ahead. If you want to compare beating, torturing and killing prisoners under military authority, then find examples that suit the argument.

Word!

Its not the same! The prisoners were in a damn prison! They could not get out! There was noone, who could help them (school ->teacher, parents)! The prisoners were under absolut control of the guards, so that anything yould have been done to them!

@Argyll
And you can spare the stupid "if the shoe fits..", because i knew, whom you were pointing at, and why!

The prisoner-guards had the order to protect the prisoners (in german: 'schutzbefohlen", i don't know, how to expres in english), and violating this is even heavier than what happend at the school!

[Ichhabe]

As far as I could see, none of those who have reacted on the abuse photos from the prisons in Iraq have denied that there are no examples of abuse in their own country. We all know that in any country, some abuse is going on at every hour of the day.
But that is irrellevant regarding to what was/is going on in those prisons in Iraq.

As a soldier, you are a represantant of your country first. If your country is highlighting on being humane, then you better act like that whatever, whenever there is a situation.

I was disliked very very much by a guy in my squad in Kosovo. Why? Because every time he raised his middle finger against Serbs or Albanians, I reprimanded him . I said to him that he had the hell to accept that even though we was the "chiefs" of Kosovo, we had to behave as guests. I could not tolerate that his behaviour could later hurt me, or anyone in my company just because he wanted to show off. I also corrected him every time he spoke badly about any group in Kosovo. Specially when he started his racial slurs. I have done that on every mission I've been on. I cannot stand that some in my near vicinity think that we belong to some Über-mench, while them that we are supposed to protect are sub-humans.

That is what the prison-abuses are all about. I don't give a damn if there were only 5 that did that. Those 5 have put the rest of the 150 000+ soldiers of the Coalition forces in jeapordy. And have to listen to some ass punks in here trying to minimize it, even make me more angry.

[Shiruzu]

Are you seriously telling us that nothing in the German atricle is related to the Al graib in any shape or form?



An i'll tell you again:
Nearly all the people in this class ("BVJ - Berufsvorbereitungsjahr", "Job-preperation-year") are total idiots! They haven't even managed to pass the 8. grade, they are dumb as wood!! I can say this, because my mother is a teacher of such a class (hopefully not all the time!) and i can tell you stories, which would make you go " :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: " all the time!

So don't compare these fools with the US-guards!

[Saranof]

The soldiers that abused the prisoners were trained and had a job to do. That job bans them from commiting such offences. You cannot compare them to a bunch of schoolkids who found someone to bully. That happens everyware, although this case was more brutal.

I know that you'd like to find something that makes people who reacted against the abuse of iraqi prisoners look stupid, but this wasn't the right story.

[Jack Mehoff]

Torture another human being is bad. Sounds like a common sense to me. So you are telling me those students never trained to follow that guideline? It must be a German thing.

[Herrmannek]

Torture another human being is bad. Sounds like a common sense to me. So you are telling me those students never trained to follow that guideline? It must be a German thing.

In the country of canibals everything is possible :)

[BlackRain]

Why post a thread about torture and abuse in a school in Germany?

Answer: Schadenfreude which means delighting in others’ misfortune.

The USA has been kicked to the gutter about the Iraqi war, the war on terrorism, etc. The high and mighty in Europe have delighted in America's struggle.

When someone posts a news story about torture and abuse in Germany, some how that is verboten?

Give me a break. The Germans wrote the book on torture and abuse.

Disclaimer: I am part German so don't give me **** about attacking Germans. The truth hurts.

[He219]

The fact that it happened twice a week at the Hildesheim's Werner-von-Siemens vocational school doesn't mean that it was sanctioned by the German Extra-curricular Education Board.
;)


... someone mentioned the Milgram experiment and the Stanford-Prisoner Experiment then, which undermine the idea that "normal people" (like conscripts) are in no way immune to such a kind of behaviour.
Also the Milgram experiment showed that this goes for people of all countries (well, at least the experiment was repeated in a lot of countries and the differences were not significant).

Conclusion: A German, even a conscript, is as ****e to do or not to do things like happened in Abu Ghraib as people of other democratic countries. It's the leadership that has to see that something like this does not happen.
One thing is certain though: The German Armed Forces have a special responsibility not to let torture or abuse happen.
And Germany cannot afford it either. With our past we would not so easy be forgiven like the Americans, who have a lot of goodwill with other nations they can use up.

Discussion of this or past events at Abu Ghraib allows a platform to debate the merits for fundamental human rights and also serves as a powerful reminder.
p-)


http://www.dw-world.de/dwelle/allgemein/bilder_show/0,3772,87028_10,00.jpg
Related Article: Prisoners claim they were abused at the Brandenburg/Havel prison (http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1432_A_1199266,00.html)

[Argyll]

Why post a thread about torture and abuse in a school in Germany?

Answer: Schadenfreude which means delighting in others’ misfortune.

The USA has been kicked to the gutter about the Iraqi war, the war on terrorism, etc. The high and mighty in Europe have delighted in America's struggle.

When someone posts a news story about torture and abuse in Germany, some how that is verboten?

Give me a break. The Germans wrote the book on torture and abuse.

Disclaimer: I am part German so don't give me **** about attacking Germans. The truth hurts.

Well said my friend,well said.
If you all care to remember I have posted articles about abuse(non Military related),and asked the question why are some forms of abuse accepted and not others,unless it was about Abu Graib,people just did not seem to care,and if it was neither about their country also....hence the "if the shoe fits"statement,what has happend here is still abuse,the Germans are crying foul,as were the Americans about Abu Graib,the topics are linked whether you like it or not as they are about ABUSE,which some people here are in denial,I also stated that abuse cases in our societies are rife,does that make them any less horrific than what happened in Iraq?............the answer has to be no,is the abuse of Children in our countries any less newsworthy?,is the abuse of our elderly less acceptable,than the abuse of some Iraqi's by a very small minority?
To answer anything other than no is totally hypocritical.

[BlackRain]

German school torture trial opens

Eleven German teenagers have gone on trial accused of abusing an 18-year-old boy at a special vocational school.
The case has shocked Germany, with the media speaking of rape in the classroom in the town of Hildesheim when the details emerged in February.

Over four months the pupil, who hasn't been named, was beaten, kicked and humiliated by his classmates.

If convicted, the students - all aged between 16 and 18 - could face up to six years in prison.


They face a wide range of offences including causing bodily harm, extortion, and coercion over beatings inflicted on the victim from September last year.


Videoed abuse

Prosecutors say the group of teenagers forced the boy to carry out ****** acts and was made to brush his teeth with household cleaner.

They claim his classmates at the school knew about or were involved in the "systematic torture" that began two weeks after he arrived at the institution.

The alleged acts include forcing the teenager to expose his genitals, eat cigarette filters and chalk, and punching or beating him with objects including sticks and a screwdriver.

They videotaped their actions, which took place in a classroom and in a storeroom at the school.

Some of the pictures were distributed on the internet.

The students are being tried in a youth court in Hildesheim.

The court will decide whether the victim will have to give evidence in person.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3744555.stm

-------------

Based on the logic of posters on this board, perhaps we should close down all German schools to prevent abuse and torture. Obviously, this is an isolated case and does not reflect the behavior of all teenage Germans.

However, many Europeans believe that the alleged abuse at Abu Garib prison is representative of all Americans.

[Shadow]

Great! now the entire U.S. military get blame because a few U.S. soldiers misbehave.

Can I start generalizing Islam now, please?

They get blamed because obviously they got the orders to torture.
That's a big big difference. :roll:
Who can afford it to torture someone more, a General or a stupid normal citizen?

Ohh go ahead GI'S, torture!!!
You are not the only guys who do this! So it doesn't mind! :roll:

[Piotrek]

:cantbeli:

This is pathetic...You guys act like child who was captured while trowing stones and is defending itself by saying "i was trowing stones but johny was also trowing stones"....

First thing is that teenagers in germany has nothing to do with this forum ( or mayby they were in some kind of military school ?? ).

Second thing is that teenagers all over the world act sometimes stupid...and some of them are just potential criminals - i bet that during Your school times there were also some cases of violence or robbery in Your school or neighbourhood...the problem starts when those stupid teenagers become for exaple soldiers who have guns and possibilitys to harm others on much greater scale then it was during school time.

Third thing is that talking about abuse in iraq has nothing to do with anti-amerycanism...us army and every army in the world should by free frome those who act like criminals.

And Do You really believe that comanders of those who were involved in abuse of iraqis prisoners didnt knew about anything?? I bet they knew but they didnt wanted to do something with this case....from other hand I dont think that teachers in germany knew about the case of abuse in their school...so ther is really no analogy between this two cases...

[Jack Mehoff]

Great! now the entire U.S. military get blame because a few U.S. soldiers misbehave.

Can I start generalizing Islam now, please?

They get blamed because obviously they got the orders to torture.
That's a big big difference. :roll:
Who can afford it to torture someone more, a General or a stupid normal citizen?

Source?

Yeah, Islam ordered 18 terrorists to hijacked planes and flew into buildings.

Man, I love this generalization game. I can play it ALL day long.

[Secret Squirrel]

hence the "if the shoe fits"statement,what has happend here is still abuse,the Germans are crying foul,as were the Americans about Abu Graib,the topics are linked whether you like it or not as they are about ABUSE,which some people here are in denial,

Well if one were to use your, in my opinion, flawed and pointlessly generalized logic, then nothing seperates a serial killer from an accidental murder (ie. the gun accidentally goes off). And hitting a child is the same as raping a child because its both listed as child abuse. Trying to compare school kids to supposedly trained soldiers, whos job it was to GUARD prisoners, and who tortured and killed prisoners is like comparing Jerry Springer to the Pope...sure they're both men but one was stupid enough to pay a hooker with a personalized check.

[Shadow]

Source?

Yeah, Islam ordered 18 terrorists to hijacked planes and flew into buildings.

Man, I love this generalization game. I can play it ALL day long.


Do you look news?
I mean real news no CNN. rofl

[Jack Mehoff]

Source?

Yeah, Islam ordered 18 terrorists to hijacked planes and flew into buildings.

Man, I love this generalization game. I can play it ALL day long.


Do you look news?
I mean real news no CNN. rofl
No, I don't look up OPINIONS in Al Jihad news. I look up the Gen Sanchez, Gen Abizaid had to say in Washington.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

What I see as the main point here is not the similarity of the abuse, but the danger of generalization.

The press has endlessly spun the abuse story not as the actions of a few criminals in uniform, but as "US policy". How many of us know the names of the abusers, or have followed the process of UCMJ punishment? Not many, I'd guess. But to see this in the press, you'd think the entire US military system was in on the abuse, not just a few weirdoes.

By the same logic, we must now condemn all children in German schools as abusive freaks. And we must begin an inquiry into the administration of the schools, call people out on the carpet, put careers in jeopardy to find out if maybe somebody told them to do it, or failed to act aggressively to stop it.

Why, if the head of the German education system had been doing their job, this could never have happened! Let's all take to the streets to demand that they be removed from office!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

No, I don't look up OPINIONS in Al Jihad news. I look up the Gen Sanchez, Gen Abizaid had to say in Washington.
Gen Sanchez he say bye bye Iraq as they are now sending him home to the US.

[Jack Mehoff]

No, I don't look up OPINIONS in Al Jihad news. I look up the Gen Sanchez, Gen Abizaid had to say in Washington.
Gen Sanchez he say bye bye Iraq as they are now sending him home to the US.

It doesn't surprise me any. Remember that incident in AFA where a bunch of drunken cadets raped a female cadet? The general or colonel of that academy resigned after that incident.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

No, I don't look up OPINIONS in Al Jihad news. I look up the Gen Sanchez, Gen Abizaid had to say in Washington.
Gen Sanchez he say bye bye Iraq as they are now sending him home to the US.

It doesn't surprise me any. Remember that incident in AFA where a bunch of drunken cadets raped a female cadet? The general or colonel of that academy resigned after that incident.
The official reason given is that its rotation so who knows, scapegoating its all the rage these days.

[Argyll]

hence the "if the shoe fits"statement,what has happend here is still abuse,the Germans are crying foul,as were the Americans about Abu Graib,the topics are linked whether you like it or not as they are about ABUSE,which some people here are in denial,

Well if one were to use your, in my opinion, flawed and pointlessly generalized logic, then nothing seperates a serial killer from an accidental murder (ie. the gun accidentally goes off). And hitting a child is the same as raping a child because its both listed as child abuse. Trying to compare school kids to supposedly trained soldiers, whos job it was to GUARD prisoners, and who tortured and killed prisoners is like comparing Jerry Springer to the Pope...sure they're both men but one was stupid enough to pay a hooker with a personalized check.


You are missing the whole point here,Abuse is Abuse no matter where it happens and no matter what forms it takes,but the stuff I highlighted were all forms of physical abuse,so my generalisation was about Abuse,the word,but the stuff highlighted ,physical,you're clutching at straws with anything other than! ,but during the height of the Abuse accusations from Abu Graib,every Tom **** and Harry had their opinions,and they damned the Americans,in most cases all of them,on the actions of a few,Generalisation was rife,but did it stop them especially those from Europe having a field day with it,banging on about how the mighty have fallen and cries of disgusting,they were lording it up big time,and if you failed to see it then you were either blind or part of it.
There were those who took great delight in continuing to highlight the cases against the American Soldiers,and there were those who revelled in their anti Coalition opinions.......quotes like "Morality".Moral High ground,Better than everyone else" etc..........but when a case about Abuse and acts of abuse in their own backyard appear as a topic they go ape****!why is that?
I am against all forms of abuse,and so should everyone else,whether it be a UK soldier allegedly pissing on an Iraqi,a US soldier giving the thumbs up in a pic,or whether it is kids beating the hell out of another,they are all acts of abuse,and must not be acceptable in any shape or form.

Shiruzu......feeling guilty then are we?

[Argyll]

Are you seriously telling us that nothing in the German atricle is related to the Al graib in any shape or form?



An i'll tell you again:
Nearly all the people in this class ("BVJ - Berufsvorbereitungsjahr", "Job-preperation-year") are total idiots! They haven't even managed to pass the 8. grade, they are dumb as wood!! I can say this, because my mother is a teacher of such a class (hopefully not all the time!) and i can tell you stories, which would make you go " :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: " all the time!

So don't compare these fools with the US-guards!


Did they or did they not carry out the same treatment on their victim,as those US Guards?

And are those US soldiers not "idiots" as well.............I'd say there was a striking resemblance in their actions wouldn't you?

Deny it all you like,but it's there in black and red for you to read.

[Secret Squirrel]

hence the "if the shoe fits"statement,what has happend here is still abuse,the Germans are crying foul,as were the Americans about Abu Graib,the topics are linked whether you like it or not as they are about ABUSE,which some people here are in denial,

Well if one were to use your, in my opinion, flawed and pointlessly generalized logic, then nothing seperates a serial killer from an accidental murder (ie. the gun accidentally goes off). And hitting a child is the same as raping a child because its both listed as child abuse. Trying to compare school kids to supposedly trained soldiers, whos job it was to GUARD prisoners, and who tortured and killed prisoners is like comparing Jerry Springer to the Pope...sure they're both men but one was stupid enough to pay a hooker with a personalized check.


You are missing the whole point here,Abuse is Abuse no matter where it happens and no matter what forms it takes,but the stuff I highlighted were all forms of physical abuse,so my generalisation was about Abuse,the word,but the stuff highlighted ,physical,you're clutching at straws with anything other than! ,but during the height of the Abuse accusations from Abu Graib,every Tom **** and Harry had their opinions,and they damned the Americans,in most cases all of them,on the actions of a few,Generalisation was rife,but did it stop them especially those from Europe having a field day with it,banging on about how the mighty have fallen and cries of disgusting,they were lording it up big time,and if you failed to see it then you were either blind or part of it.
There were those who took great delight in continuing to highlight the cases against the American Soldiers,and there were those who revelled in their anti Coalition opinions.......quotes like "Morality".Moral High ground,Better than everyone else" etc..........but when a case about Abuse and acts of abuse in their own backyard appear as a topic they go ape****!why is that?
I am against all forms of abuse,and so should everyone else,whether it be a UK soldier allegedly pissing on an Iraqi,a US soldier giving the thumbs up in a pic,or whether it is kids beating the hell out of another,they are all acts of abuse,and must not be acceptable in any shape or form.

Shiruzu......feeling guilty then are we?

I'll certainly agree with you that the media and many spun the Iraq abuse story as representative of the U.S or coalition army in Iraq. I think alot of people/countries were feeding into the sterotyped view of the U.S (ie. everything is bigger and better) and the constant "every country who didnt fight in Iraq was a pussy" as well as Bush saying over and over "mission accomplished" and the "bringers of freedom" and trying to paint a picture of victory when the conventional part of the war was never in question to begin with. Like any news story, when it rains it pours and there are still details emerging. And yes abuse under any situation or circumstance is wrong. And yes every country encounters abuse on various levels. But what you have to realize is that many of those who were, as you say, enjoying this, as they saw it, U.S failure were against the war to begin with. So of course when something like the prison scandle happens its going to stir of a lot of sabre rattling on both sides. But if you want to post stuff about generalized abuse, its not hard to find in the news. If you want to post stuff about prisoners being tortured and murdered, then its a little harder to find (at least recent accounts). Comparing trained soldiers to, at least partically, minors/students seems to suggest that the U.S soldiers, who did partake in abusing prisoners, have the mentality of minors. What makes the U.S example so damning in some people's eyes is the fact that since the stuff in Iraq has emerged, more stuff/abuse at Gitmo has also arisen. Also, abuse allegations at the U.S "secret" prison and Red Cross charges against some British soldiers for some of their actions. But you have to realize this point; image is everything during an occupation. So yes it might be only 1% of the U.S forces in Iraq who abused prisoners, but to many people from various countries its representative of the entire force. you know as well as i do, that both sides in Iraq are fighting the propaganda war along side with the physical war. What happened in Germany isnt going to put anyone's life in danger from the fallout...what happened in Iraq may very well likely put coalition lives in danger (hard to say for sure because its almost impossible to calculate the affect). But the sad fact remains, the people who abused prisoners in Iraq, if i'm not mistaken, were TRAINED specifically to handle prisoners. German school kids reputation wont suffer because of what a couple kids did, but a professional army's reputation can easily be damaged by the actions of a few, whether you like it or not.

[Kitsune]

Is that Argylls anti-germanism again?

Concerning Abu Ghraib and German soldiers, including moral highground I just quote myself
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15256&start=16:


Struck is a damn idiot for making comments like this.
(I make stupid comments, too, from time to time. But I can afford it. ).

We have a discussion going on a German site about another comment of Strucks, that conscription would "protect" the German armed forces against...aehem...torture impulses.
Well, someone mentioned the Milgram experiment and the Stanford-Prisoner Experiment then, which undermine the idea that "normal people" (like conscripts) are in no way immune to such a kind of behaviour.
Also the Milgram experiment showed that this goes for people of all countries (well, at least the experiment was repeated in a lot of countries and the differences were not significant).

Conclusion: A German, even a conscript, is as ****e to do or not to do things like happened in Abu Ghraib as people of other democratic countries. It's the leadership that has to see that something like this does not happen.
One thing is certain though: The German Armed Forces have a special responsibility not to let torture or abuse happen.
And Germany cannot afford it either. With our past we would not so easy be forgiven like the Americans, who have a lot of goodwill with other nations they can use up.


What you possibly do NOT get, Argyll, is, that nationality has nothing to do with critsising Abu Ghraib. If a New Zealander does this, and you (or budanski, that would be typical) then find a report that says "New Zealander raped a women!" (another New Zealnder, who has nothing to do with the one who had said something against Abu Ghraib) that does not mean, that the first New Zealander was wrong with his critisism.

[Argyll]

Is that Argylls anti-germanism again?

Concerning Abu Ghraib and German soldiers, including moral highground I just quote myself
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15256&start=16:


Struck is a damn idiot for making comments like this.
(I make stupid comments, too, from time to time. But I can afford it. ).

We have a discussion going on a German site about another comment of Strucks, that conscription would "protect" the German armed forces against...aehem...torture impulses.
Well, someone mentioned the Milgram experiment and the Stanford-Prisoner Experiment then, which undermine the idea that "normal people" (like conscripts) are in no way immune to such a kind of behaviour.
Also the Milgram experiment showed that this goes for people of all countries (well, at least the experiment was repeated in a lot of countries and the differences were not significant).

Conclusion: A German, even a conscript, is as ****e to do or not to do things like happened in Abu Ghraib as people of other democratic countries. It's the leadership that has to see that something like this does not happen.
One thing is certain though: The German Armed Forces have a special responsibility not to let torture or abuse happen.
And Germany cannot afford it either. With our past we would not so easy be forgiven like the Americans, who have a lot of goodwill with other nations they can use up.


What you possibly do NOT get, Argyll, is, that nationality has nothing to do with critsising Abu Ghraib. If a New Zealander does this, and you (or budanski, that would be typical) then find a report that says "New Zealander raped a women!" (another New Zealnder, who has nothing to do with the one who had said something against Abu Ghraib) that does not mean, that the first New Zealander was wrong with his critisism.

Now pray tell me where I have made this a German issue?.is it perhaps because it was a headline from Sky news,pertaining to abuse,and perhaps I am mearly pointing out to some individuals that people in Glass houses should not throw stones?
It is the germans who are making this an Anti german thing,I've pointed out this is infact an ABUSE thing,where some of those in both incidents suffered the same physical abuse,I've also stated that NO country is not without it's faults,try reading through the posts before making assumptions......oh and this was a headliner in UK today!.
Have a look at some of the other abuse allegations.I even posted one about the abuse of the elderly here in Scotland,see the point I made before...about it not being newsworthy unless it originated in Abu Graib. ;)

[Shiruzu]

Of course abuse is abuse, but let me give an example in your logic, Argyll:


I walk in the streets and 1$ falls out of my pocket. Another person walks in the street and 10000$ fall out of his pocket.
So we both lost money (loosing money is loosing money; abuse is abuse), but what is worse?

So of course, noone said, that in germany is no abuse. There is no country without abuse. But you try to downsize your abuse and your arguments really remind me of Piotreks example:

You guys act like child who was captured while trowing stones and is defending itself by saying "i was trowing stones but johny was also trowing stones"....

[Shiruzu]

I even posted one about the abuse of the elderly here in Scotland,see the point I made before...about it not being newsworthy unless it originated in Abu Graib. ;)

This is really ****ed up man!
At first, the pupil wasn't beaten to death, like some prisoners in Iraq!

The school-abuse is heavily discussed in germany! About three days, there was no (literally no) other thing in the news! Exactly the same withe the police beatings!
So is it our fault, if your media doesn't cover these things? Next question would be, if your media has to cover every crime in other states?

And don't you get the point? Your country invaded Iraq to "liberate" the people! But then pictures come out, where 'normal' thiefs and other criminals get tortured!
And i say it again: the students, who did this in germany were the absolute opposit of intelligent. If you say, that your soldiers are the same, than this is quiet a nice insult....

[Argyll]

Of course abuse is abuse, but let me give an example in your logic, Argyll:


I walk in the streets and 1$ falls out of my pocket. Another person walks in the street and 10000$ fall out of his pocket.
So we both lost money (loosing money is loosing money; abuse is abuse), but what is worse?

So of course, noone said, that in germany is no abuse. There is no country without abuse. But you try to downsize your abuse and your arguments really remind me of Piotreks example:

You guys act like child who was captured while trowing stones and is defending itself by saying "i was trowing stones but johny was also trowing stones"....

try reading it again,I used the physical abuse aspects..... :cantbeli:
I generalised Abuse is Abuse,but this incident has a lot of similarities between this one and Abu graib..........and you cannot accept that or you're just ignoring the fact,see what I see here is the same as what many Americans did,they do not like the facts that there are those within our societiies who can stoop to this level.........it's not nice is it.
Many Europeans generalised,as now will many Americans......hence the expression if the shoe fits!

[Argyll]

I even posted one about the abuse of the elderly here in Scotland,see the point I made before...about it not being newsworthy unless it originated in Abu Graib. ;)

This is really f*** up man!
At first, the pupil wasn't beaten to death, like some prisoners in Iraq!

The school-abuse is heavily discussed in germany! About three days, there was no (literally no) other thing in the news! Exactly the same withe the police beatings!
So is it our fault, if your media doesn't cover these things? Next question would be, if your media has to cover every crime in other states?

And don't you get the point? Your country invaded Iraq to "liberate" the people! But then pictures come out, where 'normal' thiefs and other criminals get tortured!
And i say it again: the students, who did this in germany were the absolute opposit of intelligent. If you say, that your soldiers are the same, than this is quiet a nice insult....


yes you don't like it do you......................and neither did the Americans,it was good enough to generalise them,but it's a different matter when it's about your country.Point proven!!!

[Fox2]

Shiruzu, Argyll is not saying what they did was acceptable. No one is saying that what happened at Abu Ghraib is right or somehow justified by past wrong-doings. What those guys did was wrong, very wrong. It's being dealt with. They are being severely punished. But ya'll don't want to let it go, because you believe it somehow adds credibility to your point of view.

Argyll's point, I believe, is that ya'll try to make it out like the US and coalition militaries as a whole are like those reservists, which is incorrect. You don't care about other abuse scandals, even though they may be similar in severity or even worse, because the US is not involved, and it does not make the US look bad. You are of a one-tracked mind, and because you were against the initial war, you are now grasping for anything with which to smear the Coalition.

[Rantanplan]

http://www.familie-von-borstel.de/Annalena/Annalena_2003/Juli_2003/xImg_6021.jpg

[Kitsune]

@Argyll:

In that case I withdraw my comment. ;)

[Shiruzu]

Never did i say, that all coalition Members are rapists oder torturers now. Nor did i say, that all germans have a "white vest". So i did not generalize, and so should you! THATS my point!
But: You have to see, what the people in Iraq think, after the Ghraib-Photos: All Coalition-Soldiers are criminals. Thats not my point of view, but its the aftermath of what has happened.


And if you say, that these both incidents are compareable, then this is right, but just to the physical part itsself(BUT: the student wasn't killed!).
But you can not compare the results! ALL coalition-forces are ashamed because of it and the honor of the prisoners was absolutly broken! Much more, than with the student, who had to suck a steel rod. But i'm repeating myself...

[ronin2172]

Never did i say, that all coalition Members are rapists oder torturers now. Nor did i say, that all germans have a "white vest". So i did not generalize, and so should you! THATS my point!
But: You have to see, what the people in Iraq think, after the Ghraib-Photos: All Coalition-Soldiers are criminals. Thats not my point of view, but its the aftermath of what has happened.


And if you say, that these both incidents are compareable, then this is right, but just to the physical part itsself(BUT: the student wasn't killed!).*
But you can not compare the results! ALL coalition-forces are ashamed because of it and the honor of the prisoners was absolutly broken! Much more, than with the student**, who had to suck a steel rod. But i'm repeating myself...

*y should it matter if the student was killed or not?

** how is this possible? The child has to live with these scars for the rest of his life. You think he is gonna have even a semblance of a normal healthy maturing process now? He is in for a world of hurt and mental therapy. He has to live with the shame that was heaped on him through no fault of his own. This child was an innocent picked on because he was simply weaker. This prisoner was an alleged terrorist/insurgent (not that this justifies his treatment) who was suspected of killing and or participating in killings. But to brush off this incident just because it happened to a kid is ignorant and dangerous. The potential ramifications in both these cases r equally serious, Germany is gonna have a social powder keg with a lit fuse if they don't deal with these incidents properly.

The after effects of child abuse are well documented. The prisoner's honor may have been broken but he is/was an adult he has/had the the tools (i.e maturity) to deal with what happened and move on. Children are a whole different story. U cannot be telling me this abused child is gonna be ok now, that it is no big deal. If he is an even half way normal functioning memeber of society it will be a miracle. This childs potential problems with intimacy alone r gonna be huge.

[Kampfbaer]

As far as I get it, nearly any people at this forum thinks that abuse in any way is equally bad and damnable!!!

To me, the main point at the moment is whether the abuse of POWs in Iraq was ordered by the brass of the US Army or even the DOD.

[Shiruzu]

*y should it matter if the student was killed or not?

Because someone here(Argyll?) said, that the physical aspects of both incidents were nearly the same!

[BlackRain]

They get blamed because obviously they got the orders to torture.
That's a big big difference. :roll:
Who can afford it to torture someone more, a General or a stupid normal citizen?

Ohh go ahead GI'S, torture!!!
You are not the only guys who do this! So it doesn't mind! :roll:

Were the soldiers ordered to torture and abuse? You are assuming facts not yet evident!

Example:



One of the seven guards, who tearfully pleaded guilty in Baghdad Wednesday and will testify against the others,
has said that the mistreatment was not authorized by superior officers. “If they saw what was going on, there would have been hell to pay,” Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits told military investigators.

Look it up!

[ronin2172]

*y should it matter if the student was killed or not?

Because someone here(Argyll?) said, that the physical aspects of both incidents were nearly the same!
they are the same the student was tortured, ******ly assaulted, damn just because he didn't die doesn't mean this case is any less important than any cas of prisoner torture/abuse in iraq. If any thing it is more important. The student is a child, children should not have to go thru **** like this. Children are not remotely equipped to handle **** like this.

What is the state of safety in German schools? Where were the parents of those who assaulted the boy? Are german teachers/schools trained or equipped to id behavior of this type? Can they handle it when it does occur?

A safe learning enviornment is paramount to a healthy Germany (or any country for that matter). Kids should be worried about detention, too much homework, studying for tests, not whetther the thug in the back of the class is gonna make me brush my teeth with industrial cleaning products, or whether he will have to deep throat a steel pipe for the enjoyment of said thug. This is a school not a turkish prison scene out of Midnight Express.

If this is an example of a deeper problem then a whole generation of german children r gonna fall into two categories; sadistic bullies and those they prey on. What do u think the state of the country will be if this happens?

[moughoun]

I think we are all losing our way on this thread

[ronin2172]

not really people seem to think that it is only important if abuse involves the military...any thing else is less so... :cantbeli:

[Shiruzu]

not really people seem to think that it is only important if abuse involves the military...any thing else is less so... :cantbeli:

Its a damn military board! So if someone posted a thread about US-Politics, he gets banned (Walking Nomad).
But if a mod posts something off-military-topic, then its right, because it fits his arguments?

[Jack Mehoff]

not really people seem to think that it is only important if abuse involves the military...any thing else is less so... :cantbeli:

Its a damn military board! So if someone posted a thread about US-Politics, he gets banned (Walking Nomad).
But if a mod posts something off-military-topic, then its right, because it fits his arguments?

Like Sixgun? He made threads about Euro politic and he got ban, what's the reason behind that? rofl

[Shiruzu]

I meant articles, that show a "bad" side of us-politics -> US-critical articles

[ronin2172]

not really people seem to think that it is only important if abuse involves the military...any thing else is less so... :cantbeli:

Its a damn military board! So if someone posted a thread about US-Politics, he gets banned (Walking Nomad).
But if a mod posts something off-military-topic, then its right, because it fits his arguments?
i have seen plenty of threads on here about politics...but when your threads have an anti -anything flavor then u get banned.
This thread is not political, he is simply stating that people should be careful when they generalize i.e the us military is a bunch of thugs because of what happened in Iraq.

And when did these 'examples of coalition prison abuse threads 'not be political. It seems a lot of people pepper the pics and reports with political rhetoric. When it is anti coalition it seems to be ok 4 u.

Your counter argument that this case in germany is less important is crap. You seem to think that the only reason the case in Iraq is important is because it involves the US military.

What is more scary/important a military prison where abuse has happened or an industrial powerhouse whose schools are seemingly unsafe, and abuse on kids by kids might be rampant?

sorry dude u seem to be letting your bash the US military for it's actions in iraq cloud your judgement on what really is more important. Oh well u r gonna have to deal with these kids when they go into the real world, not me.

[Midtown]

this **** is rediculas...putting a bucket over someones head...what fun is that ****.

[Shiruzu]

Your counter argument that this case in germany is less important is crap. You seem to think that the only reason the case in Iraq is important is because it involves the US military. |No, i meant, that its not as important for this board, as the US-case is. Sorry, if you got that wrong|


....Oh well u r gonna have to deal with these kids when they go into the real world, not me.|Well said, but it has nothing to do with a military-discussion, has it?|

And again i say: I'm not generalizing the US-military, and so you shouldn't do with the students.[/b]

[ronin2172]

i'm not generalizing anything....i am asking a question and saying that the answer is important no matter what the forum. I never said german schools are gladiator academies. I said that the state of german schools is more important than what happens in a prison.

And remember who is going to be the future future soldiers, pilots, sailors for germany, where will they come from....if the educational system goes to hell guess what else is going to follow....