Rethorical question, Palestinian independance

[gilgoul]

First, this not a flame bait, but a serious rethorical question, so please behave.

Let say that by the end of this year, Israel has completely withdrawn beyond the separation fence (not the "green line", that is simply impossible), and compensated a "palestinian state" by a similar amount of territories within Israel.
The "palestinian state", despite the fabulous support of 7,8 billion $ pledge to it doesn't deliver, as it is to be expected, and some "rogue elements", acting with or without the "palestinian government" benediction, starts to lob missiles, rockets and whatever else on Israel.

What would you support?:

A. Israel begs for more peace, takes in all the "palestinian" refugees currently in Lebanon and Syria.

B. Israel braces with the situation, ala Olmert, and maintains a low intensity conflict such as the one in Gaza and Yehuda/Shomron today.including forces incursions and LI Ops.

C.Israel appeals to NATO to send troops and do the job instead of itself.

D. Israel reoccupies Judea and Samaria as well as Gaza, going back to the status quo ante

E. Israel reoccupies Judea, Samaria and Gaza and give it to UN or NATO mandate.

F. Israel reoccupies Judea, Samaria and Gaza and fights the terror cells to the teeth

G. Israel reoccupies Judea, Samaria and Gaza and empties them from the local population.

[Ordie]

I like this option:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2007/RAND_MG327-1.pdf

[Moledet]

Why not cut to the point and do G?

[gilgoul]

I like this option:

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2007/RAND_MG327-1.pdf

can't read the link

[gilgoul]

Why not cut to the point and do G?

How and When?
Under what kind of justification?

I'm asking that because we may have to do that, but we need to be sure as why we do it.

[Moledet]

How and When?
Under what kind of justification?

I'm asking that because we may have to do that, but we need to be sure as why we do it.
Justification? That it should have been done 40 years ago.

[gilgoul]

Justification? That it should have been done 40 years ago.


Once again, I'm not going about what should have been done then, but what can be achieved now.
It is as simple as that.

[zad]

Why not cut to the point and do G?

Not trying to do a flame bait, but G will be something in the lines of a genocide or a ethnic cleansing, no f. way Israel people will support this and even the most hardcore hawk lobbist in the US will be against it, that will means for Israel to be isolated to the point of North Korea.

[Ordie]

can't read the link

Here's a summary of the report:

The idea is to link the Palestinian "cantons" with a grade separated rail, highway and communications corridor independent from Israeli controlled areas.

This ensures seamless travel between Palestinian Cantons without checkpoints and provides security for the Israelis. The vision would be two states occupying the same space but not co-dependent of each other.


The Day After Peace: Designing Palestine
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2005/05/14/arts/benn583.jpg Illustrations courtesy of Suisman Urban Design/Rand
From a sequence of aerial renderings showing how a plan for the Palestinian state would foster growth in a prototypical municipal area.


By JAMES BENNET
Published: May 15, 2005
HIS sense for Palestinians' nostalgia, for their attachment to the land, even for what their cities actually looked like - that would all come much later. On a Saturday in January last year, in his design studio in Santa Monica, Calif., all Doug Suisman had to go on were some maps and aerial photographs, an adrenaline spike supplied by a deadline, and the grandeur of his commission: design the state of Palestine.


Even by the standards of these vivid, unpredictable days in the Middle East, the proposition seems hubristic: As part of a two-year, $2 million inquiry to determine whether Palestine could succeed, the Rand Corporation turned to Mr. Suisman, a hip if civic-minded architect with sparse background in the region, to envision the state. He had been to Israel once, in 1972, and he had never visited the major Palestinian cities.
Rand had judged that for all the attention lavished on the possible borders between Israel and a notional Palestine, no one had expended much imagination on the structure of the latter. Palestine had persisted as a dream or nightmare, as an abstraction to occupy diplomats and politicians, not as a concrete challenge for urban planners. Yet both the American president and the Israeli prime minister had now called for the eventual creation of a Palestinian state. If the world was serious about a two-state solution, Rand reasoned, someone had to start planning Palestine, particularly since its population was about to surge. The alternative - a failed, impoverished and angry ward on Israel's doorstep, if not in its living room - posed a problem, a danger, for the world.
Rand, an independent nonprofit think tank with a reputation for dispassion and a record of advancing the space program and the military, has concluded that the challenge can be met. It has delivered up a gimlet-eyed survey of life in the West Bank and Gaza Strip that shows how far Palestinians are from viable statehood: the crippled, dependent economy, the "corrupt, nonrepresentative and authoritarian rule," the inadequate water supply, the pressure of Israeli occupation. It has suggested a long list of improvements, which it says would cost $33 billion over 10 years. And it has twinned its appraisal with a second study, a vision of what might be, the vision that Mr. Suisman eventually dreamed up that Saturday in his studio.
Steven N. Simon, one of the leaders of the Rand study, recruited Mr. Suisman after sounding out several urban planners about a possible design. Mr. Suisman, who has designed public spaces and transit systems, principally around Los Angeles, was "the most enthusiastic," Mr. Simon said. "He saw the potential in a way that maybe only a naif can."
Rand, where the analysis is meant to be astringent, not romantic, has now bet heavily on naïveté. It has presented Mr. Suisman's idea of Palestine to the White House, the European Union, the World Bank and others, as well as to the Palestinians and Israelis. The idea has captured the attention, and imagination, of at least some Palestinian policymakers.
At its most prosaic, the proposal calls for a mere connecting of the dots, for a high-speed train and fiber-optic network curving through the West Bank and Gaza to link the main Palestinian cities and towns. Yet it amounts to a reimagining not only of the landscape, fractured as it is by checkpoints and army positions after years of conflict, but also of the Palestinian experience. In place of Palestinian political and social fragmentation, Mr. Suisman proposes the most modern and swift of connections. In place of the Palestinian condition of near paralysis, he posits a state of motion. He calls it "the Arc." It is a glimpse, seen so rarely these days, of a reconciling land, post-conflict, post-occupation, post-terrorism.
When Mr. Suisman finished a recent presentation to Palestinians in a darkened meeting room in Ramallah, on the West Bank, Jihad al Wazir, the deputy finance minister, broke the silence by saying he had tears in his eyes.
"I was very moved," Mr. al Wazir said later. "It had that beauty of simplicity of design, and coherence, and comprehensiveness." Some of the Palestinians' own planners, he said, "were lost in the details, without a unifying framework or a vision for a future of the Palestinian state."
When he was initially considering the maps, Mr. Suisman did not dwell on past or present details. He thought about what was coming, in particular the projection by Rand's analysts that the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza would almost double in the next 15 years, to 6.6 million, from 3.6 million.
TO brainstorm, Mr. Suisman recruited Robert Lane of the Regional Plan Association in Manhattan, an old friend from Columbia University's Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation. The two were searching for what their mentor, Klaus Herdeg, had taught them to think of as "formal structure": not a state's boundaries, but the patterns of human life as shaped by its setting.
The world thinks of the West Bank as lacking a clear political boundary, but, as the two men discovered, it actually suffers from too many of them. The planners were daunted by the crazy quilt of Israeli settlements and Palestinian towns, overlaid with patchwork zones of Israeli or Palestinian control. Mr. Lane recalled being astonished at "how disaggregated and discontinuous this landscape was - how incoherent."
So, to remove layers left by decades of war and politics, they put tracing paper over the maps and began copying core elements: the major population centers, the main roads, the high ground. Then they laid the sheets over one another to find common shapes. They noticed the line of mountain ridges sweeping from north to south along the West Bank. They noticed how Palestinians had clustered in towns along the western faces of the ridges, where rainfall off the Mediterranean was more abundant.
"About midway through the day," Mr. Suisman recalled, "we were looking at the patterns, and I said, 'This sounds crazy, but I think we've got to do this' - and I just drew a line."
His high-speed railway would run for 70 miles along the West Bank ridges, linking Jenin in the north with Hebron in the south. The railway would then slip like a fishhook through the Negev desert to attach the West Bank to the Gaza Strip, running 130 miles in all and establishing the connection between the two territories that development officials consider essential to a Palestinian economy. Alongside the railway, Mr. Suisman proposes stretching a water conduit, a trench for fiber-optic cable, power lines, a toll road and a strip of parkland.
He would site the train stations at a distance from existing city centers, connecting each pairing with other public transportation. The idea was to create new frames for housing and businesses, to accommodate the expanding population while preserving open space. He compares his crosshatched line to an embryo's backbone and, inevitably, an olive branch.


More:http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/15/arts/design/15benn.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin

[Moledet]

Not trying to do a flame bait, but G will be something in the lines of a genocide or a ethnic cleansing, no f. way Israel people will support this and even the most hardcore hawk lobbist in the US will be against it, that will means for Israel to be isolated to the point of North Korea.
No, it will be more like the expulsion of Jews from Gaza two years ago.

[zad]

No, it will be more like the expulsion of Jews from Gaza two years ago.

As I repeat, I am not trying to do a flame bait, but with all my respect G is an 100% impossible scenario because:

Moving 3,760,000 of their homes will be an humanitarian disaster.

Egypt and Jordania will refuse to accept them, they will close their borders, where will you send them then?

You will have to use a massive amount of force to displace so many people, most of them civilians renember.

World reactions.

Frontal oposition of 1.300.000 israeli arab citizens.

And another million reasons, etical, legal, moral and humanitarian.

[deagle]

rhetorical answer :

choice J - battle royale ? flip a coin ? choose answers out of a hat

seriously, i don't know.

[Ren987]

Point G will solved the problem quasi instantaneously but there are some considerations to bear in mind:

Arabs have 75% of the oil reserves thus they get nearly all the world governments by the balls. They will simply cut the supply and press for international sanctions and embargoes. Israel's innovations, R&D and exports as advanced as they are, don't make run your cars...

So until arabs run out of oil or is replaced by cheaper fuels, the conflict will have to be "managed" rather than solved.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Justification? That it should have been done 40 years ago.

That makes you no different to the Palestinians.

[Moledet]

As I repeat, I am not trying to do a flame bait, but with all my respect G is an 100% impossible scenario because:

Moving 3,760,000 of their homes will be an humanitarian disaster.

Egypt and Jordania will refuse to accept them, they will close their borders, where will you send them then?

You will have to use a massive amount of force to displace so many people, most of them civilians renember.

World reactions.

Frontal oposition of 1.300.000 israeli arab citizens.

And another million reasons, etical, legal, moral and humanitarians.
Depends, most of them will move if they receive compensations and equality in their destined country.
Moledet (the party) used to do this-offer compensations for Palestinians wishing to move and it worked very well.

Ren987, that's the point, we can stay here for as long as it takes. The Arabs are as much an annoyance as road accidents, we can live with it. On the other hand, they are living on borrowed time.

[LRPV]

H. Occupy or control Judea and Sumeria (West Bank). Recognize Gaza as Palestine. Relocate residents from Judea and Sumeria to Palestine.

This means removing all blockades from Gaza (Palestine).

In the event of an attack from Gaza this is a State on State war. React accordingly.

[Ought Six]

g:
"First, this not a flame bait, but a serious rethorical question, so please behave.

[ ... ]

What would you support?:
A. ...
B. ...
C. ...http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rhetorical

Main Entry: rhe·tor·i·cal

****unciation: \ri-ˈtȯr-i-kəl, -ˈtär-\
Variant(s): also rhe·tor·ic \ri-ˈtȯr-ik, -ˈtär-\
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century

1 a: of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b: employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>
------------

As for what Israel should do, I think the 'super nanny' method used with unruly children may be the best approach. Offer the carrot and the stick, and hold to those rules no matter what. So tell Hamas that if they stop the rocket fire immediately, serious negotiations towards a Palestinian state with full recognition by Israel can begin. If they do not stop the rocket fire immediately, the northern border of Gaza moves south one kilometer; *permanently*. When they fire more rockets, bring in the bulldozers and tanks, and clean out a half mile strip, razing every building to the ground. Build a new modular fence with easily movable sections at the new border. Wait a month, and repeat as necessary. If this means eventually emptying the entire Gaza strip into Egypt, so be it. It is not like they did not give them every chance, or like they had no justification. Hamas will either learn, or become the agent of their population's permanent homelessness. If Gazan residents are smart, they would not wait long to take matters into their own hands and deal with Hamas themselves.

[IsraDani]

A. Israel begs for more peace, takes in all the "palestinian" refugees currently in Lebanon and Syria.



And Bishara as PM

(just wanted to make gilgoul cough the coffee)

[gilgoul]

And Bishara as PM

(just wanted to make gilgoul cough the coffee)

You almost succeeded lol.
I am asking those questions because I'm quite interested in the answers of the members of this forum, and not only the Israeli ones.
I am affraid we are in a very tight spot of our own making here, by not setting clearly red lines, and sticking by them.
The Gaza strip was given every single opportunity to become the embryo of a future palestinian state, and it has turned into Hamastan.
Now, Hamas want's to get international recognition while giving nothing, trying to bully us into apathy, and it has been clearly helped by our government and media, while apparently, a big bunch of our population is more interrested by the results of Kachav Nolad or the local Survivor than the survival of our state.
This scares me, because it gives a lee way to all the extremists in the hood, including our own ones, who are now preaching a complete separation from the Nation-State of Israel as we know it.

There is some need for serious soul searching here, because there is nothing I would hate more to see than Israel turning into some ****ed up theocracy, or disappearing into pseudo "humanist" oblivion.

[Bongopete]

Unfortunately I dont think there is anything that Israel can do, other than cease to exist, that will stop the violence between Jew and Arab there. I also dont think that the violence would end even if Israel was eliminated. There would be fighting over who gets what piece of land.
Perhaps if everyone there was force to marry someone of another religion.....