M9/M4 Sale Suggestions

[-=TFN=-Karab]

I'm a cadet currently developing a Marksmanship/Shooting team for my Det for next semester. We had one a year ago but, because of the lovely way previous commanders always seem commission without organizing a team that can sustain itself, I'm doing a complete overhaul.

Well, on to the gear. Since we'll be competing in military competitions, and since our training will be adhering to military regulations, we are in search of good prices with firearms. Obviously, people will be suggesting things like "Google it" and whatnot--- and believe me, I have been doing my research as well as I can. So far I've found a few options with AR-15 kits, but nothing outstanding.

We're an AFROTC Detachment, and if you know of any place that offers discounts for being a Det-- please let me know.

Again, we're looking for deals on M9s and M4s (AR-15s) NOT USED.

[ibstolidude]

I'm a cadet currently developing a Marksmanship/Shooting team for my Det for next semester. We had one a year ago but, because of the lovely way previous commanders always seem commission without organizing a team that can sustain itself, I'm doing a complete overhaul.

Well, on to the gear. Since we'll be competing in military competitions, and since our training will be adhering to military regulations, we are in search of good prices with firearms. Obviously, people will be suggesting things like "Google it" and whatnot--- and believe me, I have been doing my research as well as I can. So far I've found a few options with AR-15 kits, but nothing outstanding.

We're an AFROTC Detachment, and if you know of any place that offers discounts for being a Det-- please let me know.

Again, we're looking for deals on M9s and M4s (AR-15s) NOT USED.
Please explain better.

Are you an seeking to purchase mil-spec weapons for mil use in civilian channels - sorry, but that is suspect.
Does the AFROTC not have an established relationship with a unit that carries such weapons as part of their MTOE? I am not that familiar with ROTC (of any service) but that would seem a more appropriate solution.

[-=TFN=-Karab]

As far as I know, we cannot have mil-spec (legally) weapons for our team/competitions unless they fit in with civilian laws. We don't have the license/clearance to carry military weapons. For instance, the barrel length on our M4/AR-15 must follow civilian regulations. Same goes for the M9 (but I don't think that's much of an issue with the pistol).

We do not receive any support, as of now, from any unit. I wish we did, because that would be a huge leap in logistics and budget, but I believe that we must rely solely on personal/allocated detachment budget to obtain any of our gear.

[lt tahoe]

I'm not clear on how the team will "sustain itself" if you're buying POWs. Every new guy needs to buy his own, too.

So it sounds like you're basically civilians looking to buy Beretta 92's and AR-15's. Correct?

[-=TFN=-Karab]

Though personal ownership of the firearms is promoted, we cannot expect our cadets to buy their own to join a marksmanship team. We're college students with little cash. Forcing cadets to buy their own equipment that will amount to at least $1,000, for the firearms alone (not to mention tac vests/helmets/holsters etc.) will not get anybody to join. ROTC is all about recruiting and retention. Nobody joining the team, because of cost, doesn't help retention. We'll receive an allotted budget from our Wing--- but anything we purchase with that money will be for the Det and not for individuals.

The firearms we do purchase for the program will be issued, not given, to individuals, but will be returned for future cadets (or bought, and we'll buy new ones later).

Yes, we are essentially looking for Beretta 92s and AR-15s.

[James]

Though personal ownership of the firearms is promoted, we cannot expect our cadets to buy their own to join a marksmanship team. We're college students with little cash. Forcing cadets to buy their own equipment that will amount to at least $1,000, for the firearms alone (not to mention tac vests/helmets/holsters etc.) will not get anybody to join. ROTC is all about recruiting and retention. Nobody joining the team, because of cost, doesn't help retention. We'll receive an allotted budget from our Wing--- but anything we purchase with that money will be for the Det and not for individuals.

The firearms we do purchase for the program will be issued, not given, to individuals, but will be returned for future cadets (or bought, and we'll buy new ones later).

Yes, we are essentially looking for Beretta 92s and AR-15s.

You don't need all that gear for target shooting. It still isn't clear exactly what you want to do - purchase your own rifle? Or get the Det to do that?

Why don't you contact Bushmaster or DPMS to explain your situation? They might cut you a deal.

[-=TFN=-Karab]

For specific competitions, we are required to have our gear. Keep in mind, we participate in ROTC competitions that vary from simple target shooting down to tactical scenarios.

I'm responsible for the actual purchase of the weapons. However, the funds will come from the Detachment (and our team's personal budget as an organization). The Det isn't directly buying the firearms, but indirectly. Therefore, the firearms I'll be buying will be for the Det. In summary, I do all the work-- the Det just provides reimbursement for purchases.

Yes, I will be contacting certain companies but I have a feeling that few will cut us a great deal (if any at all).

[James]

I was in ROTC years ago, and I had gear issued to me. Do they not do that anymore? I am skeptical about any sort of competition that requires too much in the way of "gear"; they seem to minimize the actual skill of the shooter.

Who will train you guys?

[-=TFN=-Karab]

If you had gear issued to you, that's awesome. I don't know any Dets/schools (of any branch) who are issued weapons. All we get is a budget. In theory, I guess we'll be "issuing" the weapons we buy to cadets.

I agree with the gear issue. It's too much of a burden, but I think the idea is to put the cadets in gear that, if they were in a combat MOS or other, would require getting used to.

[Dragonscript]

might want to check on the ar15.com forums, that's your best bet.

[Todd022]

quick question before I can offer any help...are your desires to be a PJ/CC upon commission? Just getting a feel for things.

[BadKarma26]

Why they hell don't you spend the money on like microsoft flight simulator or flight lessons or something. Or powerpoint classes. They way I see it, as officers in the air force youre either going to be a pouge or a pilot. This seems like a bunch of zoomie cadets that want to look cool with highspeed ta-50 and weapons you don't need.

I guess the one exception would be your if youre going to be SPs (i know SOC doesnt often take 2nd LTs), but I doubt the officers are going to be doing any DMR work.

We had AFROTC at the school I did my Army ROTC at and I didn't ever see THEM with vests or weapons or anything like that.

[Laconian]

You need to check with your Govt credit card holder/purchase/finance officer and make this a govt purchase. From what I understand, you plan to buy these weapons as an individual (you paying and filling out the paperwork), be reimbursed later, then relinquish possession/ownership (not the legal owner)? You just made a straw purchase, I don't care what you do with them afterwards. The whole straw purchase thing is bad and a Federal felony.

If these are going to be the property of the Govt, then you need to contact dealers familiar with govt contracts and secure a GSA price and handle it that way. Otherwise, you're walking a fine line.

[Mark Sman]

I wonder if someone at the CMP could offer some pointers on this.

They don't ship AR-15s to ROTC clubs anymore, but they may have useful knowledge on how to get where you need to be. Might be worth a call anyway.

http://www.odcmp.com/

[-=TFN=-Karab]

quick question before I can offer any help...are your desires to be a PJ/CC upon commission? Just getting a feel for things.
I'm not going for PJ or CC (though tempted), but there's several who are currently training. I'm actually going for a Med Slot.


Why they hell don't you spend the money on like microsoft flight simulator or flight lessons or something. Or powerpoint classes. They way I see it, as officers in the air force youre either going to be a pouge or a pilot. This seems like a bunch of zoomie cadets that want to look cool with highspeed ta-50 and weapons you don't need.
Our cadets already have flight lessons if they want them. Trust me, potential pilots already get their fun. The assumption that all the Air Force does is fly planes is foolish. We still have to qualify with M4s and M9s at Field Training, several of us aspire to PJ/CC, and is having a marksmanship team a sin? I think not. Don't count us out because we're AF. We have shooters who can outshoot a ton of people. Again, this is also a recruiting/retention thing.


You need to check with your Govt credit card holder/purchase/finance officer and make this a govt purchase. From what I understand, you plan to buy these weapons as an individual (you paying and filling out the paperwork), be reimbursed later, then relinquish possession/ownership (not the legal owner)? You just made a straw purchase, I don't care what you do with them afterwards. The whole straw purchase thing is bad and a Federal felony.
Actually, I'm likely not the actual buyer. I am only planning everything so that we know what to buy. If I do make the purchase, I'll likely have to fill out a ton of paperwork and have to obtain signatures to signify that it is a Detachment purchase. Again, it's not my money. Nothing illegal will remotely be accomplished when all is said and done. I do not operate without authorization.


They don't ship AR-15s to ROTC clubs anymore, but they may have useful knowledge on how to get where you need to be. Might be worth a call anyway.
Thanks for the info, I'll definitely give them a call.

[~center~]

Speaking as a Federal Firearms Lisenced dealer and former ROTC type...

We had a shooting team and had our own range with the following rifles (no pistols); M1 Garands, Kimber match .22's, and Mossberg match .22's. Sorry, dont remember the model numbers of the .22's. These were owned and purchased by our unit/school, not as an individual POF.
The paperwork for this type of purchase is actually very easy. Simply contact a company, i.e. Colt, Bushmaster, etc. and they can deal with you directly (as the authorised purchasing officer) or they will at least put you in contact with a distributor/dealer.
I'm unsure of your school status but, if it's a State entity, you will be excise tax exempt and not fill out a typical Form 4473 for the firearms.
It would be easier to just contact Bushmaster for the info. Besides, they make good National Match rifles.

[-=TFN=-Karab]

Thanks for the info,~center~. I appreciate everyone's replies to the thread.