Dutch SF Counter-Terrorist Team

[Fearless-Falcon]

warGOD (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1710) asked my to publish his pics of the Dutch SF CT team.

The Dutch Korps Commando Troepen has 3 operational Companies (104, 105, 108) Every Company has several specialist platoons:
-HALO&HAHO
-Mountain
-Boat
-CT

CT Forces gear (made by warGOD during the open days of the Army)

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3713/1738.jpg[/b]
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2488/1739.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9634/1740.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1066/1741.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3821/1742.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6650/1743.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5172/1744.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3626/1745.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6633/1746.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1558/1747.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5473/1748.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/79/1749.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5434/1750.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6562/1751.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8828/1754.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8519/1755.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/955/1757.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4513/1759.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1484/1760.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9410/1762.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1250/1763.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1782/1764.jpg

Other Dutch CT Pictures

http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix01.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix02.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix03.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix04.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix05.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix07.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/nrpix06.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/stt02.jpghttp://www.inhail.com/pics/stt03.jpghttp://www.inhail.com/pics/stt04.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/stt05.jpghttp://www.inhail.com/pics/stt07.jpghttp://www.inhail.com/pics/stt08.jpg
http://www.inhail.com/pics/stt11.jpghttp://www.inhail.com/pics/stt12.jpghttp://www.inhail.com/pics/stt13.jpg
http://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p001.jpghttp://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p003.jpghttp://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p002.jpg
http://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p004.jpg

[MVSpartan117]

I really dig p90s :D

[Graeme]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3713/1738.jpg

Interesting carry handle, never seen one like that before....

[b00n]

Diemaco i guess.

[Parzival]

GREAT PICS!

[One?]

is that an israeli laser pointer?

[big80a2]

thanks,


altijd leuk om ook wat hollandse soldaten te zien hierzo ;)

[Dutchman2]

Helemaal mee eens :D (= I totaly agree! :D )!!!

Nice pic's, some good detail pic's of the FX simmunition Glock and Diemaco set-up.
Thanks, keep up posting!

greets

[Gringo]

I really dig p90s :D

I really dig holes. ;)

Especially those of Virgin girls

[MARINO]

Wow!!! Cool pics, really really cool pics :hug: woot

[thatguy96]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3713/1738.jpg

Interesting carry handle, never seen one like that before....
Looks like a detachable one with A1 rear sights...never seen anything like that before either.

[Wilco]

Nice shots, real sweet :D


Kudos to you.

[Howitz]

Any Ideas as to what the chem lights would be used for?

[mack pl]

Any Ideas as to what the chem lights would be used for?
they could put it on clear areas(rooms) in buildings(after checked it)...or something like that
dunno :roll:

[Aussie E]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3713/1738.jpg

Interesting carry handle, never seen one like that before....
Looks like a detachable one with A1 rear sights...never seen anything like that before either.
It's the Canadian C7 removable handle. The Canadian Diemaco kept the A1 style rear sight as they use the battle-zero method of shooting. A great book (although expensive $70 US) is BLACK RIFLE II. The most comprehensive book on modern M-16 and variants I have found. Covers M-16/M-4/ACR Program/Canadian versions/HK/AR-10/SR-25/Accessories etc. If your a serious collector of M-16 books or info this is for you. When I get home I'll post again with links/publisher info.

BLACK RIFLE II: The M16 into the 21st Century 408 Pages 626 Illustrations Christopher R. Bartocci
ISBN 0-88935-348-4

Collector Grade Publications
PO Box 1046 Cobourg, Ontario K9A 4W5 Canada
http://www.collectorgrade.com/

[el_kab0ng]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8519/1755.jpg

Pistol mag holster on the left leg plus 4 extra on the vest? WTF? Their primary is the rifle, where's the extra mags? Am I missing something here? :(

[[AFSOC]]

they owe everything to Canada....

[PRKL]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8519/1755.jpg

Pistol mag holster on the left leg plus 4 extra on the vest? WTF? Their primary is the rifle, where's the extra mags? Am I missing something here? :(

This guy have at least two magazines on left side of his vest.
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/79/1749.jpg

[thatguy96]

It's the Canadian C7 removable handle. The Canadian Diemaco kept the A1 style rear sight as they use the battle-zero method of shooting. A great book (although expensive $70 US) is BLACK RIFLE II. The most comprehensive book on modern M-16 and variants I have found. Covers M-16/M-4/ACR Program/Canadian versions/HK/AR-10/SR-25/Accessories etc. If your a serious collector of M-16 books or info this is for you. When I get home I'll post again with links/publisher info.

BLACK RIFLE II: The M16 into the 21st Century 408 Pages 626 Illustrations Christopher R. Bartocci
ISBN 0-88935-348-4

Collector Grade Publications
PO Box 1046 Cobourg, Ontario K9A 4W5 Canada
http://www.collectorgrade.com/
All the other Diemaco detachable carry handles I've seen had A2 rear sights, while all of their fixed variants featured A1 rears. Its the first time I've ever seen a detachable carry handle with A1 rears. Oh, and I'll stick with Duncan Long's M16/AR-15 Sourcebook ;)

[Hullebullen]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1066/1741.jpg



"and here is where I hide my doobies"

Sorry dude, couldn't resist :D

[Aussie E]

It's the Canadian C7 removable handle. The Canadian Diemaco kept the A1 style rear sight as they use the battle-zero method of shooting. A great book (although expensive $70 US) is BLACK RIFLE II. The most comprehensive book on modern M-16 and variants I have found. Covers M-16/M-4/ACR Program/Canadian versions/HK/AR-10/SR-25/Accessories etc. If your a serious collector of M-16 books or info this is for you. When I get home I'll post again with links/publisher info.

BLACK RIFLE II: The M16 into the 21st Century 408 Pages 626 Illustrations Christopher R. Bartocci
ISBN 0-88935-348-4

Collector Grade Publications
PO Box 1046 Cobourg, Ontario K9A 4W5 Canada
http://www.collectorgrade.com/
All the other Diemaco detachable carry handles I've seen had A2 rear sights, while all of their fixed variants featured A1 rears. Its the first time I've ever seen a detachable carry handle with A1 rears. Oh, and I'll stick with Duncan Long's M16/AR-15 Sourcebook ;)
The A2 removable handles you see are probably not made by Diemaco, all their rear sights (standard, removable carry-handle and polymer back-up rear sight) are A1 style.
I have both books and I'm telling you Black Rifle II is the be all and end all. Definatly worth the dosh if you got it. If you ever get e chance to take a gander you'll see what I mean. Not saying Long's book isn't any good, just that Bartocci definetly did his research and it's up to date with a lot more detailed info and pictures. (HK variant, SPR/Mk12, .499 LWR, 6.8mm, Diemaco, etc.).

[el_kab0ng]

This guy have at least two magazines on left side of his vest.
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/79/1749.jpg

Even still, primary load out should be at least 6 mags with 2-3 pistol mags. (not 7 pistol, 3 rifle) Doing CQB drills should be as close to the real thing as possible, so those 20 round mags have got to go! ;)

[Fearless-Falcon]

This vest has pouches for the FN P90 mag. The standart weapon for the CT forces. The only needed one mag because their where only 3 terrorist.
http://www.korpscommandotroepen.nl/commandostichting/degroenebaret/dec2003/ct4.jpghttp://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p017.jpg

[moley102]

Sorry to sound like a dumbass, but why are their Glocks painted blue? :roll:

[SHA]

Stupid Question Alert!! what does Troepen mean????

[Fearless-Falcon]

Sorry to sound like a dumbass, but why are their Glocks painted blue?

Because the the weapon is converted to fire paintball ammo. I think :|



Stupid Question Alert!! what does Troepen mean????

Troops!

[Graeme]

The glocks are blue to signify that they are simunition firing weapons, like the blue barrel on the rifles. I beleive its so that live weapons can't find themselves mixed up among weapons set up for firing simunition.

[SHA]

lol Thanks mate :D

[Dutchman2]

http://www.korpscommandotroepen.nl/commandostichting/degroenebaret/dec2003/ct4.jpghttp://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p017.jpg

Here you can see the differance between the CQB troops and the "green in the field" recon troops. Well... That pic is how they look like for the media :D . In real operations they wear different vests, and the first thing they drop is the Elcan sight.



they owe everything to Canada....

No, not realy. Basicly only the C7 series rifles. The Elcan is on his return because it's crap, and as 40 mm grenade launcher we use a modified Heckler&Koch AG-36 (NL) with an British reflex sight for the AG-36 (NL).
Well, here's the list of weapons we use theese day's;

-Diemaco C7, C7A1,C8, C8A1 =Canada
-Minimi Para= Belgium
-MAG= Belgium
-FAL (officialy obsolete)= Belgium
-Glock= Austria
-Accuracy International .338 sniper rifle= UK
-Uzi (officialy obsolete)= Israel
-SIG PE90 SWAT= Switserland
-FN P90= Belgium
-Steyr TMP= Austria
-Barett cal.50= USA
-Browning M2= USA/ Belgium

Our munition is purchased from Canada (IVI manaufactured 5,56X45-MM), Germany/ Holland/ Israel (7,62X51-MM, cal.50 and 9-MM -manuafactured by DAG, MEN, AI and IMI-) and UK (5,56X45-MM linked for Minimi and 120mm for Tankgun ;) manufactured by Radway Green!)


Greets,

Roger

[Haiw]

This guy have at least two magazines on left side of his vest.
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/79/1749.jpg

Even still, primary load out should be at least 6 mags with 2-3 pistol mags. (not 7 pistol, 3 rifle) Doing CQB drills should be as close to the real thing as possible, so those 20 round mags have got to go! ;)
I'm no expert but I'd say that if you use 6 30-round-mags in a CQB hostage rescue action then someone SERIOUSLY screwed up in the planning phase...

[moughoun]

Can someone tell me who manufacture's The Dutch army's helmet's as we are getting them?

[thatguy96]

All the other Diemaco detachable carry handles I've seen had A2 rear sights, while all of their fixed variants featured A1 rears. Its the first time I've ever seen a detachable carry handle with A1 rears. Oh, and I'll stick with Duncan Long's M16/AR-15 Sourcebook ;)
The A2 removable handles you see are probably not made by Diemaco, all their rear sights (standard, removable carry-handle and polymer back-up rear sight) are A1 style.
I've got pictures straight from Diemaco of some of their FT weapons some with fixed carry handles, but all of those fixed carry handles have A2 rear sights. I'm finding them again right now, but the links are dead, so I'm going to have to get the guy who requested them to post them again (all this on another forum).

-edit- I was wrong, I went back a looked a the pics more closely, and low and behold there were both, detachable carry handles with both A1 and A2 rears.

And maybe I'll have to take a look at this book too. Sounds pretty good from you description.

[henksmoeder]

Stupid Question Alert!! what does Troepen mean????

Troepen means troops

[PRKL]

This guy have at least two magazines on left side of his vest.
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/79/1749.jpg

Even still, primary load out should be at least 6 mags with 2-3 pistol mags. (not 7 pistol, 3 rifle) Doing CQB drills should be as close to the real thing as possible, so those 20 round mags have got to go! ;)

I was also thinking that he don't have much ammmunition for his primary weapon but could it be that in this case he have only three 20 round magazines because they are for simunition ammunition and they don't have any more of those? I don't have any experience about those kind of vests but I have understood that each pocket holds 2 thirty round magazines, then he could have at least 5 thirty round magazines (including one on his weapon).

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Hmmmm are they using RAM (real action marker) ? It seems so because the glock and the barrel on the m4 are painted blue to distinguish it...

[Fearless-Falcon]

I was also thinking that he don't have much ammmunition for his primary weapon but could it be that in this case he have only three 20 round magazines because they are for simunition ammunition and they don't have any more of those? I don't have any experience about those kind of vests but I have understood that each pocket holds 2 thirty round magazines, then he could have at least 5 thirty round magazines (including one on his weapon).


This vest has pouches for the FN P90 mag. The standart weapon for the CT forces. The only needed one mag because their where only 3 terrorist.

[Dutchman2]

Can someone tell me who manufacture's The Dutch army's helmet's as we are getting them?

I was in the army when this helmet was issued. We had the old steel US M1 helmet till 1996 and in februari 1997 we recieved this helmet. What they told us (and what the newspaper wrote about) was that this helmet was manufactured in Spain. It's a US "Fritz" helmet copy (shape) but with a better wearing comfort.

greets,

roger

[Graeme]

Hmmmm are they using RAM (real action marker) ? It seems so because the glock and the barrel on the m4 are painted blue to distinguish it...

No. Look at the ammunition they are using.

[Dutchman2]

Can someone tell me who manufacture's The Dutch army's helmet's as we are getting them?

I was in the army when this helmet was issued. We had the old steel US M1 helmet till 1996 and in februari 1997 we recieved this helmet. What they told us (and what the newspaper wrote about) was that this helmet was manufactured in Spain. It's a US "Fritz" helmet copy (shape) but with a better wearing comfort.

greets,

roger

Oh, now I remember it :D ; When we received the helmets, there whern't any camo-covers for it yet, and the old cover for the M1 helmet did fit, but we had to give it back together with the helmet. No problem, because the helmet is green. But when you dropped the helmet, a huge piece of paint came of the helmet, and under it was bright yellow kevlar :lol: ! That was nice during tactical excersises :roll: ... So we all received a square piece of brown canvas and some spraycans with black and green paint, and had to made our own helmetcover :D :D :D ! I think that the salved that 'paint' problem now.

[TP]

To clear up somethings about the Dutch CT Vest:
I had a picture of this modulair vest with all the pouches of it. But the site is gone.

There are different pouches:

2x radio
2x medic
1x large
4x pouches that can hold each: 2 m4 mags
2x pouches that can hold each: 3 m4 mags (standard magholder)
4x pouches that can hold each: 1 p90 mag
2x triple flashbangholder with medium pouche

(sourche: de Groene Baret, helaas staat het artikel over dit vest niet online)

but on the pictures i see a new type of pouches like chemolightpouches.
so i think there are coming more and more of modulair pouches for these Dutch Ct Vests.

[[AFSOC]]

http://www.korpscommandotroepen.nl/commandostichting/degroenebaret/dec2003/ct4.jpghttp://home-3.worldonline.nl/~theonaus/kct/p017.jpg

Here you can see the differance between the CQB troops and the "green in the field" recon troops. Well... That pic is how they look like for the media :D . In real operations they wear different vests, and the first thing they drop is the Elcan sight.



they owe everything to Canada....

No, not realy. Basicly only the C7 series rifles. The Elcan is on his return because it's crap, and as 40 mm grenade launcher we use a modified Heckler&Koch AG-36 (NL) with an British reflex sight for the AG-36 (NL).
Well, here's the list of weapons we use theese day's;

-Diemaco C7, C7A1,C8, C8A1 =Canada
-Minimi Para= Belgium
-MAG= Belgium
-FAL (officialy obsolete)= Belgium
-Glock= Austria
-Accuracy International .338 sniper rifle= UK
-Uzi (officialy obsolete)= Israel
-SIG PE90 SWAT= Switserland
-FN P90= Belgium
-Steyr TMP= Austria
-Barett cal.50= USA
-Browning M2= USA/ Belgium

Our munition is purchased from Canada (IVI manaufactured 5,56X45-MM), Germany/ Holland/ Israel (7,62X51-MM, cal.50 and 9-MM -manuafactured by DAG, MEN, AI and IMI-) and UK (5,56X45-MM linked for Minimi and 120mm for Tankgun ;) manufactured by Radway Green!)


Greets,

Roger


Ahem....the WORLD wARs douche bag

[Stavka]

Jeez, what a debate on the amount of pistol mags the guy is carrying...

OPEN YOUR EYES!

Those arent pouches for pistol mags, theyre pouches for candy bars! Seriously, the Dutch CT guys have their **** together, they realize the importance of easily accessed sugar in times of strife.

*goes for a snickers*

[Dutchman2]

]
Ahem....the WORLD wARs douche bag

Buying only the best avaible ;) ... Except ofcourse for the Diemaco C7 (the M16 system is unrelaible in the field. Please no flames, it's the truth :D . Unfortunatly get's my country most of the credits by testing and designing the 'Mother of M16's', the AR-10 :oops: ), proberly the introducing of the H&K G36 won't take so much time for some Dutch special forces ;) ...

[He219]

Anybody have more info on operation 'Black Tulip'?
:D

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50901855.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356151DF6BE4C59E9CEEEA9C30E9B9B114CE8

ROTTERDAM, NETHERLANDS: A frogman tries to enter a ship in the port of Rotterdam in a drill against terrorism, 27 May 2004. The drill, called Black Tulip, is being held every year since 1989 by a special unit of the Dutch Naval forces. This year there were also units from Poland, Germany, Norway and Sweden. AFP PHOTO/CONTINENTAL/ STR (Photo credit should read CONTINENTAL/AFP/***** Images)

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50901842.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356157D333B3890014202A9C30E9B9B114CE8

[big80a2]

Anybody have more info on operation 'Black Tulip'?
:D

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50901855.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356151DF6BE4C59E9CEEEA9C30E9B9B114CE8

ROTTERDAM, NETHERLANDS: A frogman tries to enter a ship in the port of Rotterdam in a drill against terrorism, 27 May 2004. The drill, called Black Tulip, is being held every year since 1989 by a special unit of the Dutch Naval forces. This year there were also units from Poland, Germany, Norway and Sweden. AFP PHOTO/CONTINENTAL/ STR (Photo credit should read CONTINENTAL/AFP/***** Images)

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50901842.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356157D333B3890014202A9C30E9B9B114CE8

it's wet... ;)

[Fearless-Falcon]

Wow NP!

I think they are troopers of the 7th NL SBS.

[TP]

read the artikel first @ www.marine.nl!
Just the ussual BBE and AmfPel (-> diemaco's).
;)


PS Diemaco's are based on M16,
The M15 / M16 design is made by Holland, sold to the U.S.
:P

[Haiw]

PS Diemaco's are based on M16,
The M15 / M16 design is made by Holland, sold to the U.S.
:P
Eh? You're kidding, right?

[TP]

Nope,

I've heard that from different people.
Incl from some Army Staff Generals.

Strange that the dutch SF unit's use Diemaco's for waterops.
The Diemaco is the only weapon that have problems with water.
Even the old FN GPMG doesn't have waterproblems.

[Dutchman2]

PS Diemaco's are based on M16,
The M15 / M16 design is made by Holland, sold to the U.S.
:P
Eh? You're kidding, right?

Yes, it's the truth;

Eugene Stoner invented his terrible system back in the early 50's, using a Johnson bold-locking device and a Swedish Ljungman direct gastube system.
Nobody wanted the system, because the US already had issued the M14 (or was planning to issue it) and the rest of the world the FN FAL, so he tried to find a company that wanted to produce his rifle.
The Dutch State Armory (Artillerie Inrichtingen (A.I.)Hembrug, Zaandam) saw a future in it as new service rifle for the Dutch troops. It was a big gamble, because the rifle was realy crap and unrelaible. Also it was a production nightmare for the designers team.
After 3 years and many prototype's, calculations, field testing, troop testings, etc., A.I. produced a relaible rifle in 7,62X51-MM NATO. It had it's child decises, but it was a good basis to work from. (They totaly changed the basic designe from mr. Stoner). But... Our country get a 'left' red goverment, and 'weapons production was a evil habit...' so we bought the FAL from Belgium and the goverment ordered to stop with weapon productions :fork: !
The A.I. plant manufactured approx. 10.000 AR-10 rifles, and most of them ended by some foreign country's (Portugal and Soedan), but fortunatly also many by civil target shooters. The Dutch AR-10 is still very cheap (+/- 1100,- Euro's) and very accurate for matches.
The US bought the rights from A.I., and they developed the AR-15 out of it. But they made it cheaper to manufacture, so the safety and the triggergroup are not so save and smooth as the AR-10 variant. Looking at it now, the 5,56X45-mm NATO cartridge is to weak for a relaible function of the Ljungman system in the AR-15's/ M16's. That's why Heckler and Koch M4's (finaly) made use of a 'normal' piston and boldcarrier.

Greets,

Roger

[Dutchman2]

Strange that the dutch SF unit's use Diemaco's for waterops.
The Diemaco is the only weapon that have problems with water.
Even the old FN GPMG doesn't have waterproblems.

Yes, but I said it before: The Diemaco/ M16 is crap! Old weapons arn't crap, because the where manufactured by state goverments that had the time and money to made thing perfect. Commercial company's only wants to sell cheap gun's :D .
The US is using the 'old' M14 more and more, and the 'old' FN MAG GPMG, is still the best MG in the world. The US rejected the M60 for it in 1995. In that year, the FN MAG celebrated his 39th birthday :D ;) !
By the way, the Dutch Marines are goeing to reject the Diemaco C7 in 2007 for the H&K G36. They allready tested it in the field ;) ...

[Fearless-Falcon]

When does the Army get new weapons?

[[AFSOC]]

how big is the dutch military??

[Fearless-Falcon]

69.654

[Dutchman2]

When does the Army get new weapons?

Proberly not within 15 years. The Marines are much smaller, and need to buy stuff that can handle each climat. The Army is much more progressive with buying new stuff. except ofcourse for the SF unit's.

[TP]

By the way, the Dutch Marines are goeing to reject the Diemaco C7 in 2007 for the H&K G36. They allready tested it in the field

The Diemaco's have a short life then. Typical because the Marines vote for the Diemaco during tests in the '90.

[-Max2-]

By the way, the Dutch Marines are goeing to reject the Diemaco C7 in 2007 for the H&K G36. They allready tested it in the field

They will retire the C7 10 years after its introduction ? Its a little bit short... :|

Its confirmed or its only a rumour ?

[thatguy96]

PS Diemaco's are based on M16,
The M15 / M16 design is made by Holland, sold to the U.S.
:P
Eh? You're kidding, right?

Yes, it's the truth;

Eugene Stoner invented his terrible system back in the early 50's, using a Johnson bold-locking device and a Swedish Ljungman direct gastube system.
Nobody wanted the system, because the US already had issued the M14 (or was planning to issue it) and the rest of the world the FN FAL, so he tried to find a company that wanted to produce his rifle.
The Dutch State Armory (Artillerie Inrichtingen (A.I.)Hembrug, Zaandam) saw a future in it as new service rifle for the Dutch troops. It was a big gamble, because the rifle was realy crap and unrelaible. Also it was a production nightmare for the designers team.
After 3 years and many prototype's, calculations, field testing, troop testings, etc., A.I. produced a relaible rifle in 7,62X51-MM NATO. It had it's child decises, but it was a good basis to work from. (They totaly changed the basic designe from mr. Stoner). But... Our country get a 'left' red goverment, and 'weapons production was a evil habit...' so we bought the FAL from Belgium and the goverment ordered to stop with weapon productions :fork: !
The A.I. plant manufactured approx. 10.000 AR-10 rifles, and most of them ended by some foreign country's (Portugal and Soedan), but fortunatly also many by civil target shooters. The Dutch AR-10 is still very cheap (+/- 1100,- Euro's) and very accurate for matches.
The US bought the rights from A.I., and they developed the AR-15 out of it. But they made it cheaper to manufacture, so the safety and the triggergroup are not so save and smooth as the AR-10 variant. Looking at it now, the 5,56X45-mm NATO cartridge is to weak for a relaible function of the Ljungman system in the AR-15's/ M16's. That's why Heckler and Koch M4's (finaly) made use of a 'normal' piston and boldcarrier.

Greets,

Roger
Um, that's not entirely true. Armalite did in fact license production of the AR-10 to Artillerie-Inrichtingen, and there is little to suggest that the design, while improved upon, was completely changed from Stoner's AR-10A. Not to mention that many of the design improvements and further developments were devised by Armalite. AI production halted in 1959, and there was no reason to buy back the rights from them because they had never had them. AI AR-10s were licensed produced, the only rights they had were sales rights, not outright production rights. Development by Armalite of the AR-15 started in 1956, while AI was licensed to produce the AR-10 in 1957. There is nothing to suggest that while many improvements on the AR-10 pattern from the AI period may well have been incorporated into the AR-15, that the AR-15 was an outgrowth of the AI AR-10.

I also don't see how its a terrible system, as it is probably the second most popular on the planet, second to the Kalashnikov series of automatic rifles. The AR-10 prototypes produced by Armalite were said to be of good quality, while the initial production batches made by AI were of dubious quality stemming from improper heat treatment of the barrels. There are thousands of AR-15/M16 pattern weapons fielded all over the world, so I would say those numbers would speak for themselves in how "amazingly unreliable" the system is. HK's going back to the so-called 'normal' gas piston setup is nothing new either, and I wish people would stop talking about how revolutionary that is. Colt in conjuction with the Rock Island Arsenal created a number of gas-piston AR-15 type protos and there was no interest, and numerous manufactuers like Z/M Weapons and LMS have released them on the civilian market over the last 15 years, and there has been little interest.

[Dutchman2]

By the way, the Dutch Marines are goeing to reject the Diemaco C7 in 2007 for the H&K G36. They allready tested it in the field

They will retire the C7 10 years after its introduction ? Its a little bit short... :|

Its confirmed or its only a rumour ?

Not officialy confirmed, but a friend who is Marine tested the H&K G36 last year. It was even on the the display on the Navy open houses. And because the UK Marines (UK and NL Marines work together alot) will issue the G36 also in the future...
The Diemaco was never the first choise. The Steyer AUG was the first choise by the Navy and Army (it was even in commercials in the early '90's, and the news papers wrote that it was the new rifle for the army. The Diemaco came as a suprise). But Canada wanted to buy two Fokker airplanes from us (and some other things), and Austria did'nt. So economicly, the Diemaco was the best choise. Ministry Of Defence told the Dutch people that the Steyer didnt became the new rifle, because it fired munition that was hazardous for the nature :roll: ... Yeah, right: the both fire the same cartridges :bash: !
In the last test fase, the top was: The R4 (South African Galil), Steyer AUG, Colt M16A2 and the Diemaco C7. What me suprised was, that the FN FNC didn't came far in the testst. That's realy a relaible rifle. Not so accurate as the Diemaco/ M16, but it will alway's work.

thatguy96, you are right on many points, I talked to patriotic :D ! But I still think that the M16 is unrelaible -although it's the most popular rifle in the world...-. The M16 put his hot gasses filled with carbon direct in the most fital erea of the rifle; Between the boldcarrier and the bold. The rifle is weak constructed, and need many special tools to clean 100%. And the rifle isn't easy to clean with all thoose unreacheble erea's and corners. It's sensetive for dust. And there is one more thing with the M16; It will blow up because of mysterious reasons :| . When a rifle exploded here in the Netherlands -I dont know how the situation is in the rest of the world-, the chance that it will be a M16 is 95%. When I went to the school for the Maintenace troops, the first thing I get reached in my hands was a blow-up C7. They told us to look carefully at it, to never forget. But as civil target shooter, I was by two M16 explotions, fortunatly without any harm to the shooter. And I must say that there wasn't home made reloaded ammo involved. Because of that, I dont like the M16.
I must say that the M16 is a fine rifle for target shooting though. It's very accurate.

greets,

roger

[gary-amsterdam]

69.654

uh? The british army only has 120.000 +- troops, are you sure you are not mistaken ?

[Dutchman2]

69.654

uh? The british army only has 120.000 +- troops, are you sure you are not mistaken ?

When I was in the army, the landforces counted 35.000 + man. I think that he mean the whole defence forse, Navy and Airforce included ;) .

[Adri]

69.654

uh? The british army only has 120.000 +- troops, are you sure you are not mistaken ?

how many people live in Holland ? lets say 2-6 millions

here in norway we have 4.5 million and still our armed forces can, in case of war, get 214.000 people in uniform (btw 214.00 is from the norvegian defence's english site, on the norvegian site they say 130.00)

http://www.mil.no/languages/english/start/facts/article.jhtml?articleID=32060

I belive they can get much more then that ;)


EDIT:
btw is that before or after mobilisation ?

[mack pl]

how many people live in Holland ? lets say 2-6 millions


:cantbeli: I think 15 milions :roll:

[Javaa]

Adri wrote:

how many people live in Holland ? lets say 2-6 millions



I think 15 milions

it's 16,5 millions

[mack pl]

Adri wrote:

how many people live in Holland ? lets say 2-6 millions



I think 15 milions

it's 16,5 millions

ohh,well, I was closer to good answer ;)

[Dutchman2]

Adri wrote:

how many people live in Holland ? lets say 2-6 millions



I think 15 milions

it's 16,5 millions

ohh,well, I was closer to good answer ;)

Yes, 15 million was 4 0r 5 years ago :| , when I was on school (somewhere around 1988/89) I learned that Holland had 14 million peoples!
And officialy Holland still has a serviceduty in times of war. We have approx. 36.000 Diemaco's, 10.000 Glocks, 1200 Minimi's, 5000 MAG's. I don't think that we can arm the all the males in Holland in case of war :D !

[Adri]

hehe :oops: I wasn't even close :lol:

[Fearless-Falcon]

When I was in the army, the landforces counted 35.000 + man. I think that he mean the whole defence forse, Navy and Airforce included[/code]

Yes, AFSOC asked how big the Dutch Military was.

By the way. The Army has now so about 38.000 men.

[Haiw]

And officialy Holland still has a serviceduty in times of war. We have approx. 36.000 Diemaco's, 10.000 Glocks, 1200 Minimi's, 5000 MAG's. I don't think that we can arm the all the males in Holland in case of war :D !
Don't we still have the old FALs and Uzis stashed away somewhere?

[Dutchman2]

And officialy Holland still has a serviceduty in times of war. We have approx. 36.000 Diemaco's, 10.000 Glocks, 1200 Minimi's, 5000 MAG's. I don't think that we can arm the all the males in Holland in case of war :D !
Don't we still have the old FALs and Uzis stashed away somewhere?

Yes we do ;) ! On my armybase (Havelte), our platoon received 20 new FAL's in mint condition. Also a crate full of Uzi's, and approx 20 Carbines, 30 Garands, 3 Bren''s and 2 Browning 1919's woot !
I believe that there are many more on central stocks. Especialy FAL's.

[SiFiOn]

Nice pictures FF!

[TP]

Some KCT pix:
http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/unit%E9s/kct/kct_01.jpg

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/unit%E9s/kct/kct_05.jpg

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/unit%E9s/kct/kct_03.jpg

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/unit%E9s/kct/kct_04.jpg

http://le.cos.free.fr/photo/unit%E9s/kct/kct_02.jpg

[DEMSPEC]

Good stuff woot

[SiFiOn]

Anybody have more info on operation 'Black Tulip'?
:D

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50901855.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356151DF6BE4C59E9CEEEA9C30E9B9B114CE8

ROTTERDAM, NETHERLANDS: A frogman tries to enter a ship in the port of Rotterdam in a drill against terrorism, 27 May 2004. The drill, called Black Tulip, is being held every year since 1989 by a special unit of the Dutch Naval forces. This year there were also units from Poland, Germany, Norway and Sweden. AFP PHOTO/CONTINENTAL/ STR (Photo credit should read CONTINENTAL/AFP/***** Images)

http://cache.*****images.com/comp/50901842.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=D5C980AC33A356157D333B3890014202A9C30E9B9B114CE8

I've tried to find some more.
Sorry, Dutch link of the 2003 edition;

http://www.marine.nl/images/AH2003JUN_tcm10-1941.pdf

2004; news articles:

http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id=62967/contentid=476975/sc=877b30

http://www.clubmetro.nl/content/acrobat/amsterdam/NLAMS_20040528_A_Metro.pdf

I''ve read more in a military newspaper, the Dutch 'Defensiekrant'. They had more info, I'll try to find it again.