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Ordie
03-02-2008, 02:44 AM
In China, an ATM glitch brings life in prison

Ordinary Chinese are upset at the harsh sentence for a man who took free money from his machine. A rare retrial puts focus on a two-tiered justice system.
By Mark Magnier
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

February 28, 2008

BEIJING — It seemed like a gift from heaven in a country where very little is free. When security guard Xu Ting went to an ATM in the southern city of Guangzhou on a Friday night in the spring of 2006 and withdrew $140, he noticed that it only deducted 14 cents from his account. Over the next eight hours, he made 170 more withdrawals, pocketing upward of $24,000.

During the next several months, he lost some of the money to a thief on a train, tried to start up a company that failed, and gambled most of the rest on thousands of lottery tickets that turned out to be losers. With little cash left, he got a job.

Then a routine police ID check led to his arrest.

Xu's disappointment at how little the windfall had changed his life was nothing compared with what happened next. He was ordered imprisoned for life by a Chinese court late last year. The crime: bank robbery.

Xu's case has attracted widespread attention in China, fanning public ire at the judiciary, the banking industry and corrupt officials who get away with far greater crimes than ordinary people who can't get a break.

Fearful of the growing anger over perceived injustice and China's widening rich-poor gap, the government late last week held a retrial for Xu, a rarity in a country where the state is presumed to always be right. A verdict could be announced as early as the end of the week.

For Xu's father, the initial court decision suggests China's laws have not kept up with societal changes or common sense, a view some legal experts share.

"My son is not a bad kid, but it's such a money society," said Xu Cailiang, his father. "I don't know much about the law, but I think this sentence is totally unreasonable. Ninety percent of people in China would have taken the money."

That figure may be conservative. In an Internet survey in late December, just 7% of 19,437 respondents said they would stop withdrawing money and promptly report the mistake to the bank.

"We are not saints," said an anonymous posting on a popular website, Tencent.com (http://tencent.com/).

Xu's father, 50, says his son can hardly be expected to follow the sort of mores he did growing up. When Chairman Mao led the nation, most people were scrupulously honest and society shared a common sense of purpose.

"The difference between then and today is like heaven and earth," he said. "Now everything depends on connections and graft. It's a slippery slope."

In the last decade, credit and debit card usage has exploded in China, with anger toward banks fanned by poor service in the state-run banking sector.

"The customers have seen enough of their arrogance and snobbishness," said a recent article on the Dahe News government website.

Supporters say Xu's bank is partly to blame for not maintaining its ATM. They also note that the bank never actually suffered a loss, since the $24,000 was refunded by the ATM manufacturer. "The analogy in Xu's case might be to someone finding money on the street and not turning it in," said Wu Yichun, Xu's lawyer. "This should be a civil, not a criminal, case."

Others slam China's banks for cheating their customers without penalty even as Xu got a life sentence. Internet postings criticize financial institutions that refuse to reimburse customers after their ATMs spit out counterfeit bills or blank "test" paper. In one case cited online, a Mr. Chen from Beijing discovered $14 from the ATM he was using was fake. The bank refused a refund on the grounds he didn't have evidence it came from its machine.

In another case, a Chongqing man surnamed Huang, who declined to give his first name, had a similar experience with $30. Eventually he became so infuriated with the bank's unresponsive attitude that he attacked and damaged the machine.

Others claim "ATM phobia" after the Xu case, fearful a machine will spit out more than expected and land them in trouble as well.

And an article from Britain's Daily Mail that was widely circulated in China tells of a similar ATM in Bristol that, in October 2006, spit out 20 pounds for every 10 pounds withdrawn. That turned into a giant street party. Why, when it happens in China, does Xu get life imprisonment? several Internet postings asked.

In recent months, the anger over banks has become more ****ounced. Foreign banks have started building a presence here after international trade rules forced China to open the market, and the differences are not going unnoticed.

Until now, Chinese consumers had little choice but to go to a state-run bank. One survey found the average waiting time at China's four largest financial institutions was 41 minutes.

Another survey, released last year on the Dahe News site, found 79.5% of Guangdong residents would opt for a foreign bank over its domestic counterparts.

If an ATM shortchanges you, spits out something other than money or misdirects a transfer, it's always the customer's fault, complained online user "ifzhangwei" on Tianya Club, a social networking site. "Never let a bank suffer a cent of loss, otherwise it will sue you. If you're lucky, you'll go bankrupt, if not, beheaded."

China's love-hate relationship with the ATM is a relatively short one. The first machine was installed in southern Guangdong province by the Bank of China in 1986, a few miles down the road from Xu Ting's fateful experience. But ATMs didn't gain widespread use here until almost 2000.

China is now one of the world's fastest-growing ATM markets, with approximately 120,000 of the world's 1.7 million machines, according to London-based analyst Retail Banking Research. That compares with about 408,000 in the U.S.

While growing frustration with banking services and ATMs appears widespread, perhaps most worrisome for Beijing are the awkward questions being raised about justice in this nominally socialist society. Internet users were quick to compare Xu's life sentence to the often lenient penalties given to officials on the take, a contrast that doesn't thrill the Communist Party.

"Compared with Xu Ting, the corrupt officials deserve a thousand deaths," said an anonymous comment on Tianya Club. "China's judicial system allows officials to set a fire while forbidding ordinary people to light a lamp."

Every few years, China has a case in which public outrage prompts the government to reverse course, leading to social change.

In 2003, migrant worker Sun Zhigang was beaten to death by police; the outcry resulted in fewer restrictions on people moving within the country. In 2005, She Xianglin was found innocent after 11 years in jail on a murder conviction, spurring death penalty reform. Xu Ting's lawyers hope his case can help bring more common sense to China's theft statutes.

The judiciary has defended its decision even with the retrial. "Xu Ting's case is totally in line with the judicial procedure," said Lu Botao, chief of the Guangdong Supreme Court. "People shouldn't get too emotional."

Xu Ting, who grew up in Linfen, a small city in northern Shanxi province, has adapted to his life in prison, according to his lawyer, but is hopeful for a reduced sentence.

Xu studied marketing at a two-year college before dropping out to become a motorcycle salesman. He moved to Guangzhou and was working as a security guard until that day in April 2006 when he discovered the defective ATM.

His father describes him as hard-working and more ambitious than many of his peers, while his mother, Yang, speaks of a shy boy respected by his employers. From a young age, Xu dreamed of making something of himself, his family said.

Wu, his lawyer, said he couldn't comment on Xu's fundamental honesty, although he said he wasn't an "eel-like person." Withdrawing cash 171 times consecutively, however, suggests he doesn't think much about consequences, Wu added.

Xu told reporters at his retrial last week that he stopped when the machine ran out of money, according to local media. He planned to go back a few hours later for more after the machine was refilled, but slept through his alarm. It was daylight by then and he decided to stop at $24,000.

He quit his job, bought a $100 cellphone, used $600 to pay off debts and gave $280 to his grandmother.

When the bank discovered the loss and started calling him, Xu fled to his home province. On the train, someone stole $7,000 he had in his coat, his father said, sending him on a downward spiral.

His boss called and tried to convince him to turn himself in, but Xu declined, his father said, explaining that he wanted to make the debt whole first. He invested $14,000 in an Internet cafe with a partner, which failed, then bought thousands of lottery tickets before the ID check led to his arrest at a train station.

"He's a little naive," his father said. "And he's unlucky."

His parents maintain his innocence: Their son didn't consider it theft. He took the money to protect it for the bank. He wanted to turn himself in only to have a friend discourage him. A real criminal wouldn't use his own ID.

Justice should be impartial, but things don't work that way in China, Xu's father said, suggesting that the court might have come to a different decision if Xu or his family was rich and had connections.

"Our family is like a little drop of water to the big sea that is the nation," he added. "But if this case helps China improve its legal system, that would at least be something."


Source:http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-atm28feb28,1,2325172,print.story?ctrack=3&cset=true

Invisigoth
03-02-2008, 02:01 PM
In China, an ATM glitch brings life in prison

Stealing brought life in prison, not an ATM glitch. With that being said, even for $24.000 that's a little harsh...

deagle
03-02-2008, 04:32 PM
i think tahts bull from a "modernized" country really. i think that 101% of the ppl wouldve taken it. but of course, the bank (which is prob govt owned didn't get any punishment for being an "accomplice" and "giving away free money"

Xaito
03-02-2008, 04:53 PM
I wouldn't have taken the money - not because I'm a saint or something but simply because somebody will notice the glitch sooner or later and the bank knows who you are anyway - in the end they'll get the money back one way or another anyway.
If one could do that anonymous - that would be a different story. ;)

Calanen
03-02-2008, 06:20 PM
Yeah, dont mess with the money. Bet it was the Bank of China too. Crimes of dishonesty are considered to be appalling in the PRC, but life still seems a bit harsh, even for them.

Chulo
03-02-2008, 06:22 PM
Its a "Glitch" when the ATM gives you the wrong amount of money - its Stealing when you accept it and keep on coming back for more

Rudolph
03-02-2008, 06:31 PM
I'm often guilty of being too honest for my own good. He committed a crime, he stole money - plain and simple. These types of things ALWAYS have a way of showing up in the future, especially when you least expect.

INAT
03-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Its a "Glitch" when the ATM gives you the wrong amount of money - its Stealing when you accept it and keep on coming back for more


Yes yes but life in jail?The punishment most certainly does not fit the crime.

Chulo
03-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Yes yes but life in jail?The punishment most certainly does not fit the crime.
In U.S people get death, in some places in europe they would get life and in some other places in europe they would only get 18 years (or so) - sounds harsh but each government has its laws

INAT
03-02-2008, 09:34 PM
In U.S people get death, in some places in europe they would get life and in some other places in europe they would only get 18 years (or so) - sounds harsh but each government has its laws


Well are we talking walking into a bank armed or are we talking taking advantage of a computer problem? There are no innocent victims no hostages.I know it is China but life in jail is crazy.Sorry in Europe you don't even get life for killing someone.

Chulo
03-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Well are we talking walking into a bank armed or are we talking taking advantage of a computer problem? There are no innocent victims no hostages.I know it is China but life in jail is crazy.Sorry in Europe you don't even get life for killing someone.
there is no such thing as a victimless crime - In china you get death for alot of diffrent things, as long as they go through a legal system what right do we have to say they are doing it wrong?

INAT
03-02-2008, 09:51 PM
there is no such thing as a victimless crime - In china you get death for alot of diffrent things, as long as they go through a legal system what right do we have to say they are doing it wrong?


So if it is done through the legal system and there is a law it is ok?
I understand what you are saying but China is known for its human rights abuses and stealing $24,000 should not be tantamount to life in prison.
I guess this is why they are giving the man another look.I think he should be given the chance to pay restitution to the bank serve a few months and maybe get probation if they even have that in China but not the ret of his life.

PeoplesPoster
03-03-2008, 12:55 AM
So if it is done through the legal system and there is a law it is ok?
I understand what you are saying but China is known for its human rights abuses and stealing $24,000 should not be tantamount to life in prison.
I guess this is why they are giving the man another look.I think he should be given the chance to pay restitution to the bank serve a few months and maybe get probation if they even have that in China but not the ret of his life.

If everyone knows that punishment is ridiculous harsh in China why tempt fate by breaking them? It's like sticking your finger in a electric socket, except in this case the electric sockets is life in prison. But I suppose the retrial is a good thing, if the people continue to speak up against harsh punishments like in several recent cases, it might lead to a overhaul of their criminal justice system.

Calanen
03-03-2008, 03:43 AM
In U.S people get death, in some places in europe they would get life and in some other places in europe they would only get 18 years (or so) - sounds harsh but each government has its laws

Nobody gets death for ATM fraud.

In the PRC, you can get death for business fraud however. Even for auto theft.

Firetxmi
03-03-2008, 11:33 AM
In U.S people get death, in some places in europe they would get life and in some other places in europe they would only get 18 years (or so) - sounds harsh but each government has its laws

Nice try Chulo.... Here are some key words: Worldcom, Tyco, Enron..... Tell me, how many got death?

Solvent
03-04-2008, 12:55 AM
$24,000 is big money in China. But the life sentence is too harsh. The guy right now is waiting for trial. He might get a lighter one.

Chulo
03-04-2008, 10:56 AM
Nice try Chulo.... Here are some key words: Worldcom, Tyco, Enron..... Tell me, how many got death?
Where at all did i say the legal system was equal in any country? I was pointing out that each country has varying punishment and in my post point out that the death penalty exist in u.s but not in Europe -

You are just making my point: There are varying degrees of punishment and the Government/society's perception of justice - so while in U.S you can use Worldcom, and Enron as an example of crimes that didnt result in death, we can use any death penalty case in U.S where death was given, but had the crime occurred in Europe they would have maybe gotten Life (or in some places where they are not allowed to get life but only a limited number of years)
In China there has been times when drug runners, pirates and thieves all got death (crimes that in U.S and Europe would not warrant death) . So when this guy steals $24,000 is 1,705,919.95 Chinese Yuans (in todays exchange rate) a chinese persons average income would be around 3,000 Yuans (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200502/05/eng20050205_173036.html) - so what that guy stole was about 568 years income - Like i said, every country has different punishments and outlook on how justice is carried out, so who knows, maybe they have a formula to see how sentences are carried out and the amount he stole warranted death.

Am i saying its right? personally no, but who am i to tell a sovereign country that its sentencing laws are wrong just because it doent jive with my metanarrative?

Firetxmi
03-04-2008, 02:20 PM
Ah, sorry. By the way it was worded I thought you were saying that in the case of theft the U.S. may put some people to death, Europe would have a different punishment, etc.

You are correct though, each country has its own set of laws and sentencing.

With that said, I think some countries are extremely overzealous and in some cases inhumane. For example, is it appropriate in our (western) eyes to execute someone for the "crime" of homo******ity? Just because some countries have different laws or sentencing guidelines does not make them humane or appropriate ("the crime does not fit the time").