Dmitry"baby face"Medvedev is the new Russian President

[Kilgor]

I see pattern here.

Yushchenko, Saakashvili are of course both puppets, but Medevedev hes of course his own man !

:roll:

[Xaito]

I see pattern here.

Yushchenko, Saakashvili are of course both puppets, but Medevedev hes of course his own man !

:roll:

if medvedev is a puppet hen he's at least a russian puppet in russia - not a foreign puppet - there's a huge difference.


Russia who hates Yuschenko for promoting a NATO friendly nationlistically distinct Ukraine which Russia just can't stand.
that's right - name a reason why Russia should like it?

[dimasorokine]

How many former Eastern block and former USSR countries currently have excellent ties with Russia willingly(Chechnya etc.)? Not many, but it's all the fault of the West, right?..:(

Wha? We are talking about Ukraine...the Chechens and Russians are very different culturally, historically and ethnically. And yes, the west is to "blame" for some of the bad relations, but the west is just doing what’s in the interest of the west.

-Dima

[AlexMartin2]

Our western friends dont understand why many Russians think that Saakashvilly and Uschenko a US 'spies'. Of course they are not 'spies', but its obvious that they under heavy influence of US foreign advisers. And their advices are not for good as for Ukraine as for Russia.

To understand it, they must carefully observe moves of previous leaders of Ukraine and Georgia, and current ones. And I dont think they have that opportunity, because lot of information is not avaliable in english, and probably is not avaliable in the internet. And of course they didnt interested in internal Russian and frm USSR respublic affairs.

So I believe its a not worth time to try to explain it to them :) I personally wont want to deliver a several pages' lecture to explain all complicated details.

[Andarius-Militarius]

Wait are we still talking about Medvedev? Well anyways.....my views can basically be summed up by this little video. Sorry but its in Russian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJqMK7s0LCI

[Snoshi]

Our western friends dont understand why many Russians think that Saakashvilly and Uschenko a US 'spies'. Of course they are not 'spies', but its obvious that they under heavy influence of US foreign advisers. And their advices are not for good as for Ukraine as for Russia.

To understand it, they must carefully observe moves of previous leaders of Ukraine and Georgia, and current ones. And I dont think they have that opportunity, because lot of information is not avaliable in english, and probably is not avaliable in the internet. And of course they didnt interested in internal Russian and frm USSR respublic affairs.

So I believe its a not worth time to try to explain it to them :) I personally wont want to deliver a several pages' lecture to explain all complicated details.

Look.. Just because they want to "divorce" with Russia and "marry" US does not make them "bad" for their country..

[Xaito]

Look.. Just because they want to "divorce" with Russia and "marry" US does not make them "bad" for their country..

It's not good either - especially if its less marry but more selling ukraine to the US so that the Politicians involved can stay in power.

Besids I know many Russians who probably would shoot the bitch that tries to divorce from them ;)

[Flamming_Python]

Look.. Just because they want to "divorce" with Russia and "marry" US does not make them "bad" for their country..

Get real man, I know you don't give a damn about our part of the world any more, but what you have to understand is that Ukraine is not just trying to seperate politically, it's leaders (notice I say leaders, not people) are throwing out Russian culture, Russian language, closing borders and cutting millions of familly ties. It's not just divorce; it's spitting in your face, taking your kids and throwing all your old stuff on the bonfire. That's what hurts more than any of the other political garbage put together. And personally I doubt many Ukrainians are happy about what is going on either.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Our western friends dont understand why many Russians think that Saakashvilly and Uschenko a US 'spies'. Of course they are not 'spies', but its obvious that they under heavy influence of US foreign advisers. And their advices are not for good as for Ukraine as for Russia.

Schroeder was a Russian spy. p-)

[dimasorokine]

Get real man, I know you don't give a damn about our part of the world any more, but what you have to understand is that Ukraine is not just trying to seperate politically, it's leaders (notice I say leaders, not people) are throwing out Russian culture, Russian language, closing borders and cutting millions of familly ties. It's not just divorce; it's spitting in your face, taking your kids and throwing all your old stuff on the bonfire. That's what hurts more than any of the other political garbage put together. And personally I doubt many Ukrainians are happy about what is going on either.

X2 !!! Ukraine not having Russian as at least 1 of 2 official languages is like Canada having French as the only language. But hey, a lot of people are either stupid or don't know enough about the subject to understand.

-Dima

[Sergei]

Yea and the King of Jordan's mother was British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Muna_al-Hussein

Also guess who made those charges Russia who hates Yuschenko for promoting a NATO friendly nationlistically distinct Ukraine which Russia just can't stand.


And this kid talks about szizophrenia? Ultra-nationalistic ideas are over 60 years past their prime in the multinational Europe. But you can take USchenko any time/ I believe he has a US passport already stashed somewhere, because his escape from power won't be an easy one.
Any future Ukrainian president will put his corrupt arse and all his fiesty family into a lockup.

[Sergei]

Look.. Just because they want to "divorce" with Russia and "marry" US does not make them "bad" for their country..

You don't even know what you preach.
There is a publication of some jewish journalist about USchenko's father. Seems like he worked well as a provocateur and a guard in some of the Nazi concentration camps.
Of course USchenko is not to blame for the deeds of his father, but that tells a lot about why he has to commemorate former Nazi leaders and make them heroes of Ukraine.

[Bongopete]

Isnt it time that this thread die a ugly death!? DIE DIE DIE.

[AlexMartin2]

Look.. Just because they want to "divorce" with Russia and "marry" US does not make them "bad" for their country..

I didnt say 'bad' :) Really, they are independent countries, they can put themselves in the ass any way they want. If they want to divorce, let them. But the real problem, is that people dont want to divorce. At least 50% of Ukrainians want better and closer relations with Russia.

As example of stupidity, just two days Mr. Uschenko ordered to congratulate defeat of Russian forces in Konotop battle. When do you think it was? A 350 years ago :) Yes, very inspiring event for Ukrainian people, especially when Ukrainian commander was expelled by own people soon after.

[Snoshi]

You don't even know what you preach.
There is a publication of some jewish journalist about USchenko's father. Seems like he worked well as a provocateur and a guard in some of the Nazi concentration camps.
Of course USchenko is not to blame for the deeds of his father, but that tells a lot about why he has to commemorate former Nazi leaders and make them heroes of Ukraine.

Was "USchenko" voted by the majority of the people? Yes he did.. Did hes platform include plans of joining NATO? Yes, it did.

Lets see who will the next elections. According to you "USchenko" is so unpopular so it would not be a problem for Yanukovich to win it.

[SS-18]

Snoshi
Well i can see that you haven't been following elections in Ukraine, so please...

[Kap2406]

Was "USchenko" voted by the majority of the people? Yes he did.. Did hes platform include plans of joining NATO? Yes, it did.

Lets see who will the next elections. According to you "USchenko" is so unpopular so it would not be a problem for Yanukovich to win it.
Yes. Yes, he was... After a third try!!! I guess third time is charm.

[Havoc345]

Russia FAIL

But seriously just let the Russia Strong crew post in this thread, so they can discuss how badly Ukraine and other former Warsaw Pact countries want to come back to Mother Russia.

[Bongopete]

die thread DIE

[Havoc345]

die thread DIE

x2000000000000000000

[Afro-European]

Was he electedby the "majority" of the people? The guy barely won then took power after 1.5 month of protests.As far as i know,his platform did include close ties with the West but NOT Nato joining.


Was "USchenko" voted by the majority of the people? Yes he did.. Did hes platform include plans of joining NATO? Yes, it did.

Lets see who will the next elections. According to you "USchenko" is so unpopular so it would not be a problem for Yanukovich to win it.

USchenko is so impopular that it's unimaginable to even think that he'll run for a second term.The US and the EU are muttering an idea of backing Yulia Timochenko,the only one that could beat Viktor Yanukovich.

[Afro-European]

Huh!!! Why?:fork:


die thread DIE

[Havoc345]

No reason :roll:

[Afro-European]

You want it to die coz you don't agree with some guys here? What weird!!!p-)


No reason :roll:

[Bongopete]

Nice to see a return to the cold war

[Havoc345]

You want it to die coz you don't agree with some guys here? What weird!!!p-)

No I'm annoyed by the anti-west bashing and the ridiculous Cold War mindset of some of the Russian members here.

[Bongopete]

No I'm annoyed by the anti-west bashing and the ridiculous Cold War mindset of some of the Russian members here.

agreed Conflicts of opinion are one thing but some of the venom is unbelievable.

[Doublethinker]

Even though caucasians walk around like masters of the whole country, let's discuss problem anywhere - from Ukraine to Georgia to Baltics to Cuba to Kazakhstan. Just to make sure that noone looks at what's happening in Russia itself.

[Afro-European]

I 100% agree with you on that.Just show them that you don't play that game.USSR 'd never rise again no matter how bad they want it.


No I'm annoyed by the anti-west bashing and the ridiculous Cold War mindset of some of the Russian members here.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

No I'm annoyed by the anti-west bashing and the ridiculous Cold War mindset of some of the Russian members here.
Just get used to it, they can't be cured. We have plenty of our own equivalent equally incurable types in the US and UK as well.

[Berkut]

But seriously just let the Russia Strong crew post in this thread, so they can discuss how badly Ukraine and other former Warsaw Pact countries want to come back to Mother Russia.

Ukraine & WP countries are not the same thing, Poland, Czech Rep and others are distant cousins that you only see at Chrismas parties, Ukrainians are blood brothers. + Kiev is the cradle of the Russian/Belorussian/Ukranian people, so its kinda sacred.

[Havoc345]

But seriously we should hope for a future where Russia and the U.S. can be strong allies together. It was because all this nationalistic bs that good Russian and American boys had to die for in the past.

[eskachig]

But seriously we should hope for a future where Russia and the U.S. can be strong allies together. It was because all this nationalistic bs that good Russian and American boys had to die for in the past.Russian and American interests will never align, that's just the truth of it. But Russia has survived thousand years of war and conflict so this is nothing new.

[Kutuzov]

http://www.youtube.com/v/Jtd_IrwSThQ&feature=user

http://www.youtube.com/v/ZiSYUYbI_kA

http://www.youtube.com/v/Wm0_ej4pZ1c&feature=user

http://www.youtube.com/v/ycWpR5dDtic

http://www.youtube.com/v/6MdrJEjnsv4

[eskachig]

No I'm annoyed by the anti-west bashing and the ridiculous Cold War mindset of some of the Russian members here.


Care to elaborate on the "policies" that Putin used to accomplish *cough* Killing of Journalists/ Elimination of Opposition


Yea they tried that during a little thing called the Cold War , if I remeber correctly it didn't work out to well.


Yea your real cheaky douche maybe this time Medvedev won't have quite so many journalists killed for speaking out against the government. Ya know like Papa Putin did.

You're trolling harder than anyone else here.

[AlexMartin2]

Seems that our western friend didnt understand a thing from messages on last several pages, where we tried to explain real situation on Ukraine :(

[Hilbert]

Russian and American interests will never align, that's just the truth of it. But Russia has survived thousand years of war and conflict so this is nothing new.

Call me a dreamer and an optimist if you will, but I simply refuse to believe this.

[SS-18]

1/5 of all americans unable to locate US on the world map, what do you want?

[Xaito]

1/5 of all americans unable to locate US on the world map, what do you want?

Personally I'd want people to stop trying to insult each other.

[intelligenzija]

Now the US want to establish a radar station in Turkey aswell :)

[Afro-European]

Any link to back this up?


Now the US want to establish a radar station in Turkey aswell :)

[intelligenzija]

yet only this:

http://russiatoday.ru/news/news/22104

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Now the US want to establish a radar station in Turkey aswell :)
Read it today in the Russian news as well... along with about 10 other articles about the evilness of America.

[Havoc345]

You're trolling harder than anyone else here.

Yeah I don't think so pal, I only said those above messages because some of the Russian members here were talking about how great it will be when the U.S. go's into ruin under McCain. Also how crappy America is and how they insert spies into Ukraine to endorse American interests. Honestly if you were trying to be fair about who's trolling you should have quoted all of Sergei's posts and the other members of the mp.net USSR coalition.

[Xaito]

Read it today in the Russian news as well... along with about 10 other articles about the evilness of America.

"the fist time somebody calls you a horse you punch him on the nose
the second time somebody calls you a horse you call him a jerk
but the third time somebody calls you a horse - well - then perhaps its time to go shopping for a saddle." ;)

[Breakfast in Vegas]

"the fist time somebody calls you a horse you punch him on the nose
the second time somebody calls you a horse you call him a jerk
but the third time somebody calls you a horse - well - then perhaps its time to go shopping for a saddle." ;)
Smith & Wesson... :)

I take political blogs with a grain of salt, they often turn into a forum for mal-informed hyper-paranoid self-satisfying drivel, a kollektiv circle-jerk that ends in a hurra of patriotic ****.

There, I said it.

[Sergei]

Was "USchenko" voted by the majority of the people? Yes he did.. Did hes platform include plans of joining NATO? Yes, it did.

Lets see who will the next elections. According to you "USchenko" is so unpopular so it would not be a problem for Yanukovich to win it.

Nice twisting of facts.
There was not a single mention of NATO in his presidential campaign slogans. If they were, he wouldn't get past 20%. The "followers" of USchenko openly admit it.
Besides, there is no such thing as "third round of presidential elections" in Ukraine Constitution. He was just pushed down everybody's throats.
Next president of Ukraine will be his-thief-in-arms Tymoshenko. Boy, she is definetely going to dance on his grave.

[Sergei]

No I'm annoyed by the anti-west bashing and the ridiculous Cold War mindset of some of the Russian members here.

Did you look in the mirror?

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Did you look in the mirror?
Something we all ought to do time and again, myself included.

[Bongopete]

Yes, something that we ALL should do.

[Sergei]

Yes, something that we ALL should do.

We are in agreement.

[Bongopete]

See, there ARE some things that we can agree on.

[intelligenzija]

But not those magical mirrors you see at fairs, ok?

[Bongopete]

No, not those, they make me look funnier than I already do.

[Sergei]

See, there ARE some things that we can agree on.

Actually the topic is rather stupid to discuss whose "vassal" should be Ukraine - the west or the east.
The territory currently called "Ukraine" had many names before, was under different rulers and kingdoms but despite all this it is the cradle of the Russian civilization and first Russian kingdom called Kievan Rus.
Kiev is 1500 years old
Moscow is only 850 years old
St. Petersburg is very young - some 300 years.

Kiev is called - the Mother of Russian cities.

[Havoc345]

Actually the topic is rather stupid to discuss whose "vassal" should be Ukraine - the west or the east.
The territory currently called "Ukraine" had many names before, was under different rulers and kingdoms but despite all this it is the cradle of the Russian civilization and first Russian kingdom called Kievan Rus.
Kiev is 1500 years old
Moscow is only 850 years old
St. Petersburg is very young - some 300 years.

Kiev is called - the Mother of Russian cities.

Actually Kiev Rus was a Norse city settled by the Vikings. Most of the Slavs there were slaves of the Norse.

[Doublethinker]

Actually Kiev Rus was a Norse city settled by the Vikings. Most of the Slavs there were slaves of the Norse.

What the **** is this crap?

[Abu3ale]

Where where was located Kiev Rus :grin::grin::grin:
And who was slave?:))))))roflroflrofl

[Digimon]

Actually Kiev Rus was a Norse city settled by the Vikings. Most of the Slavs there were slaves of the Norse.

Holmgard or Rurikovo Gorodishe (later developed into Novgorod), not Kiev.

[Doublethinker]

Holmgard or Novgorod, not Kiev.

The city existed before Rurik's arrival.

[Digimon]

The city existed before Rurik's arrival.

Yes, but it was a Varangian settlement - a trade post or a base for the trade with the Bysantium and the Khazars. This trade included slave trade, or a trade of slavs – hence the origin of the term “slave”.

[Doublethinker]

Yes, but it was a Varangian settlement - a trade post or a base for the trade with the Bysantium and the Khazars. This trade included slave trade, or a trade of slavs – hence the origin of the term “slave”.

Where did you get all this wisdom??

The city was established by the Slavs during their migration from the Dunai region.

It is 'Slav' only in English. In Russian and other slavic languages its 'Slavjane'.

The name 'slavjane' or 'slovjane' comes from the word 'slovo', meaning 'word', and the term itself means 'those who speak our language', while others were called 'nemtsy' (a name which later became a specific name for Germans), meaning 'those who cannot speak'.

[Abu3ale]

Where did you get all this wisdom??

The city was established by the Slavs during their migration from the Dunai region.

It is 'Slav' only in English. In Russian and other slavic languages its 'Slavjane'.

The name 'slavjane' or 'slovjane' comes from the word 'slovo', meaning 'word', and the term itself means 'those who speak our language', while others were called 'nemtsy' (a name which later became a specific name for Germans), meaning 'those who cannot speak'.
Really interiesting...:)i didnt know the meaning of thos words thakx

[Doublethinker]

Really interiesting...:)i didnt know the meaning of thos words thakx

My pleasure ;)

Actually, there are two probable options, viewed by historians as legitimate, either the 'Slovo'-word, which seems much more in context of self naming of other ethnical groups, who usually united thanks to common language, and another one - 'Slava', meaning, 'glory', and Slavjane meaning 'glorious ones'. But this one seems less probable.

[Abu3ale]

I would say that, that last one "Slava" is more propable...i know a bit Russian and Slaviani its more from Slava than Slovo:)But i liked that one with Germansrofl

[Digimon]

Where did you get all this wisdom??

The city was established by the Slavs during their migration from the Dunai region.

It is 'Slav' only in English. In Russian and other slavic languages its 'Slavjane'.

The name 'slavjane' or 'slovjane' comes from the word 'slovo', meaning 'word', and the term itself means 'those who speak our language', while others were called 'nemtsy' (a name which later became a specific name for Germans), meaning 'those who cannot speak'.

I did not doubt the etymology of the term “slav”; rather, I explained the etymology of the word “slave”. While slav comes from slovo, slave comes from slav. Is this so hard to grasp?

As far as references go, this is not a secret of any kind. All you have to do is look at any dictionary entry for the word slave. Like this one:

Webster: “Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages”

The nature of the relationship between slavs and the Ros - the Rurik’s tribe - come from arab chronicles, which are the earliest authentic documents about this period that we have. The relationship was that between a slave and a master – the servants and women were in possession of the Ros, and ritually burned in the fire at the burials of their masters. These customs are detailed by Ibn Fadlah in his 10th century chronicles and Ibn Rusta – some of the main early primary sources on our knowledge of the Rus or Varangians.

There are no archeological evidence at Novgorod to suggest its existence prior to the 10th century. It is currently assumed that the references to Novgorod in Sofia First Chronicle as existing in 859 are later interpolations. The references to the city prior to the 10th century are really a reference to Holmgard – a Scandinavian settlement with a Scandinavian name mentioned in Icelandic Sagas (Norse Sagas mentions Holmgard as existing prior to 859).

Here is a short description of the town by a persian contemporary of Rurik - Ibn Rusta:

"In this island (Novgorod) there are men to the number of 100000, and these men constantly go out to raid the Slavs in boats, and they seize the Slavs and take them prisoners and they go to Bulgars and Khazars and sell them there. They have no cultivated land, nor seed, and (live by) plunder from the Slavs." (Ibn Rusta (circa 905) Arab chronicles)

What are your primary sources?

[Sergei]

Actually Kiev Rus was a Norse city settled by the Vikings. Most of the Slavs there were slaves of the Norse.

Say what?
Are you sure you shouldn't chance your history "professor"? Because the "pearls of wisdom" of yours are sometimes breathtaking.

[zg18]

I did not doubts the etymology of the term “slav”; rather, I explained the etymology of the word “slave”. While slav comes from slovo, slave comes from slav. Is this so hard to grasp?

As far as references go, this is not a secret of any kind. All you have to do is look at any dictionary entry for the word slave. Like this one:

Webster: “Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages”

The nature of the relationship between slavs and the Ros - the Rurik’s tribe - come from arab chronicles, which are the earliest authentic documents about this period that we have. The relationship was that between a slave and a master – the servants and women were in possession of the Ros, and ritually burned in the fire at the burials of their masters. These customs are detailed by Ibn Fadlah in his 10th century chronicles and Ibn Rusta – some of the main early primary sources on our knowledge of the Rus or Varangians.

There are no archeological evidence at Novgorod to suggest its existence prior to the 10th century. It is currently assumed that the references to Novgorod in Sofia First Chronicle as existing in 859 are later interpolations. The references to the city prior to the 10th century are really a reference to Holmgard – a Scandinavian settlement with a Scandinavian name mentioned in Icelandic Sagas (Norse Sagas mentions Holmgard as existing prior to 859).

Here is a short description of the town by an arab contemporary of Rurik - Ibn Rusta:

"In this island (Novgorod) there are men to the number of 100000, and these men constantly go out to raid the Slavs in boats, and they seize the Slavs and take them prisoners and they go to Bulgars and Khazars and sell them there. They have no cultivated land, nor seed, and (live by) plunder from the Slavs." (Ibn Rusta (circa 905) Arab chronicles)

What are your primary sources?


The term Slaven,Slavjan,Sloven (whatever) is older than this events,how do you explain names of states Slovakia (Slovenska),Slovenija, Slavonija (region in Croatia) basicly which all means "land of Slavs" ,this names were given (shaped) during kingdom of Great Moravia in central Europe (8th-10th century) and far away from slave trade in todays northern Russia??

[Havoc345]

Say what?
Are you sure you shouldn't chance your history "professor"? Because the "pearls of wisdom" of yours are sometimes breathtaking.

Thus, the effect of the Vikings on the rest of Europe was more than piratical burn and plunder. Additionally was an increase in maritime technology, legal restructuring, landuse, and emigration. The establishment of Norse colonies throughout Europe had far reaching repercussions. Western migration created new settlements in unpopulated areas such as Iceland and Greenland. Western movements also were responsible for the establishment of Viking cities and regions in England and Ireland. Normandy, as a buffer state, was also created by the Frankish kings. Eastern migrations created Novgorod and Kiev. Movement to the east also created trading routes that extended to Constantinople.


the link http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/early/pre1000/viking.html

Kiev is one of the oldest and most important cities of Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) and has played a pivotal role in the development of the medieval East Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs) civilization as well as in the modern Ukrainian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine).
Human settlement at the site of the present day city may have occurred as early as the fifth or the sixth century AD.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev#_note-foundation) With the exact time of city foundation being hard to determine, May 1982 was chosen to celebrate the city's 1,500th anniversary.
During the eighth and ninth centuries, Kiev was an outpost of the Khazar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar) empire. Starting in the late ninth century Kiev was ruled by the Varangian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian) nobility and became the nucleus of the Rus' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_Rus_and_derivatives) polity, whose Golden Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age) (eleventh to early twelfth centuries) has from the nineteenth century become referred to as Kievan Rus' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27). In 1240 the Mongol invasion of Rus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Rus) led by Batu Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batu_Khan) completely destroyed Kiev, an event that had a profound effect on the future of the city and the East Slavic civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Ancient_Rus). At the time of the Mongol destruction, Kiev was reputed as one of the largest cities in the world, with a population exceeding one hundred thousand.

the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev



The Varangians or Varyags (Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse): Væringjar, Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Greek): Βάραγγοι,Βαριάγοι Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language), Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_language): Варяги, Varyagi), sometimes referred to as Variagians, were Vikings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian#_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian#_note-1) Norsemen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen), mostly Swedes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes), who went eastwards and southwards through what is now Russia, Belarus and Ukraine mainly in the 9th and 10th centuries. Engaging in trade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade), piracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy) and mercenary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercenary) activities, they roamed the river systems and portages of Gardariki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardariki), reaching the Caspian Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea) and Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian#_note-Constantinople)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian#_note-Constantinople)

[Digimon]

The term Slaven,Slavjan,Sloven (whatever) is older than this events,how do you explain names of states Slovakia (Slovenska),Slovenija, Slavonija (region in Croatia) basicly which all means "land of Slavs" ,this names were given (shaped) during kingdom of Great Moravia in central Europe (8th-10th century) and far away from slave trade in todays northern Russia??

I quess I have to reiterate:


I did not doubt the etymology of the term “slav”; rather, I explained the etymology of the word “slave”. While slav comes from slovo, slave comes from slav.


This means that the name of the people - slav - could very well have derived from the word "slovo", which means "word". But the English term "slave" derived from the word "slav" because the people who were sold and bought as merchandize were largely of slavic origin. They were referred to as "slavs" because they were slavs, but the term stuck around and was applied to all other people who were bought and sold as merchandise, because of this association.

You are thinking that it is the other way around: that "slav" derived from "slave". It is not. Just reverse the positions of the terms. See the definition from the webster dictionary.

[Digimon]

Kiev is one of the oldest and most important cities of Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe) and has played a pivotal role in the development of the medieval East Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Slavs) civilization as well as in the modern Ukrainian nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine).

Human settlement at the site of the present day city may have occurred as early as the fifth or the sixth century AD.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev#_note-foundation) With the exact time of city foundation being hard to determine...

Right. However, according to Primary Chronicles, written in the early 12th century, Kiev was not settled by the Varangians; it was taken over in the late 9th century by Rurik's reconnaissance party, Askold and Dir (or just Dir). However, as a principality, Kiev Rus was largely established under the rule of Oleg, who had taken Kiev over in the 880s.

Nevertheless, much of the information contained in the Primary Chronicles is a bit questionable, since it provided an ideological justification and political legitimacy to the rule of the Rus nobility over slavs by describing it not so much as a conquest or domination but as service contracted based on a voluntary invitation – a form of social contract, in a sense. The Chronicle, whose original version was later rewritten to fit new political realities, is subject to factual inaccuracies.

[Havoc345]

Yea I agree with you on that point.

[Doublethinker]

I did not doubt the etymology of the term “slav”; rather, I explained the etymology of the word “slave”. While slav comes from slovo, slave comes from slav. Is this so hard to grasp?


Yes, it is. Because Nobody of the mentioned parties spoke English at that time. Moreover, the Norse never called Russians 'Slavs'.




As far as references go, this is not a secret of any kind. All you have to do is look at any dictionary entry for the word slave. Like this one:

Webster: “Middle English sclave, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French esclave, from Medieval Latin sclavus, from Sclavus Slavic; from the frequent enslavement of Slavs in central Europe during the early Middle Ages”



And here's what Webster actually says:

Etymology: Slave \Slave\, noun. [Compare to French esclave, Dutch slaaf, Danish slave, sclave, Swedish slaf, all from German sklave, Middle High German. also slave, from the national name of the Slavonians, or Sclavonians (in Late Latin Slavi or Sclavi), who were frequently made slaves by the Germans. See Slav.]

Slavonians are actually modern croats. And hardly it is tied to the name of Slavjane.



The nature of the relationship between slavs and the Ros - the Rurik’s tribe - come from arab chronicles, which are the earliest authentic documents about this period that we have. The relationship was that between a slave and a master – the servants and women were in possession of the Ros, and ritually burned in the fire at the burials of their masters. These customs are detailed by Ibn Fadlah in his 10th century chronicles and Ibn Rusta – some of the main early primary sources on our knowledge of the Rus or Varangians.


Classical slavery,as in Greece or Roman Empire, never existed either in Nrose countries or in Novgorod.



There are no archeological evidence at Novgorod to suggest its existence prior to the 10th century. It is currently assumed that the references to Novgorod in Sofia First Chronicle as existing in 859 are later interpolations. The references to the city prior to the 10th century are really a reference to Holmgard – a Scandinavian settlement with a Scandinavian name mentioned in Icelandic Sagas (Norse Sagas mentions Holmgard as existing prior to 859).


The city probably was destroyed and re-founded many times, there's insufficient proof to state that this is actually the same city as founded by the Norse.
Moreover, the ethnic compound, language and culture, which do not trace to Scandinavia, is a proof of its own.
And while you are quite correct to note, there are no archaelogical evidence, later compound of Nikonian chronicles describes the 9th century history of Novgorod in quite a bit of detail.




Here is a short description of the town by a persian contemporary of Rurik - Ibn Rusta:

"In this island (Novgorod) there are men to the number of 100000, and these men constantly go out to raid the Slavs in boats, and they seize the Slavs and take them prisoners and they go to Bulgars and Khazars and sell them there. They have no cultivated land, nor seed, and (live by) plunder from the Slavs." (Ibn Rusta (circa 905) Arab chronicles)


His record is quite different from that of ibn Fadlan. Moreover, it is an established fact, that since its foundation Novgorod has always ben first and foremost the center of trade, which was actually the primary reason it was founded.


What are your primary sources?

My primary sources are 5 years of studying at a University. Russian history was one of primary subjects.

[zg18]

Slavonians are actually modern croats.


I`m Slavonian :), Slavonians are not just Croats ,there are also Serbs (or Vlašadija like old ones called them),Hungarians (Madžari),Danube Germans (Folksdojčeri),even there are some Slovaks,Rusins and Ukrainians (Greek-catholics) ,the Slavic Croatian ethnic group native to Slavonia are called Šokci


Slavonians are actually modern croats. And hardly it is tied to the name of Slavjane.

It is tied ,let me explain,in Croatian language Slavs are "Slaveni" and Slavonija means "land of Slavs" (zemlja Slavena) while in Slovenian language Slavs are "Sloveni" and Slovenija also means "land of Slavs",both of these teritories were part of great Slavic state "Velika Moravska" so that means that Slavs settling todays Czech Republic,Slovakia ,Slovenia and Pannonian plain were same people carring different variations of peoples name (Slaveni,Sloveni,Slovania,Slowjane,Slovani etc.) but were later get sepparated by Germanic expansion and Magyar invasion of Pannonian plain.

We are all brothers :hug:

[Freedom-Fries]

You can argue though, that the Cold War propelled both nations to the top of the global food chain and kept them there.

Actually Russia was a mess in the 90s, they barely managed to hold onto their superpower military and their economy was a complete mess

[Digimon]

Yes, it is. Because Nobody of the mentioned parties spoke English at that time. Moreover, the Norse never called Russians 'Slavs'.

And here's what Webster actually says:

Etymology: Slave \Slave\, noun. [Compare to French esclave, Dutch slaaf, Danish slave, sclave, Swedish slaf, all from German sklave, Middle High German. also slave, from the national name of the Slavonians, or Sclavonians (in Late Latin Slavi or Sclavi), who were frequently made slaves by the Germans. See Slav.]

Slavonians are actually modern croats. And hardly it is tied to the name of Slavjane.

Classical slavery,as in Greece or Roman Empire, never existed either in Nrose countries or in Novgorod.

The city probably was destroyed and re-founded many times, there's insufficient proof to state that this is actually the same city as founded by the Norse.
Moreover, the ethnic compound, language and culture, which do not trace to Scandinavia, is a proof of its own.
And while you are quite correct to note, there are no archaelogical evidence, later compound of Nikonian chronicles describes the 9th century history of Novgorod in quite a bit of detail.

His record is quite different from that of ibn Fadlan. Moreover, it is an established fact, that since its foundation Novgorod has always ben first and foremost the center of trade, which was actually the primary reason it was founded.

My primary sources are 5 years of studying at a University. Russian history was one of primary subjects.

Etymology:
Alright. First, for the word to have derived its meaning from another, it is unnecessary that it should be borrowed directly into the language. For instance, the word “ethics” or “etika” – respectively English and Russian contemporary words – derive from the ancient Greek “ēthikos”, meaning custom or habitual form of behavior. The adoption of the word is a result of a chain of borrowings (English ethics): “Middle English ethik, from Middle French ethique, from Latin ethice, from Greek ēthikē, from ēthikos”.

If you were right, then we should not have these words, since neither Russian nor English languages existed at the time this word originally came into practice. However, the truth is that our languages are full of borrowings from ancient languages such as Latin or Greek. It is even more surprising that you say this, and then post a dictionary entry that describes this very process of borrowing.

I really do not know what speaking English at the time has to do with the eventual entry of the word into the English language (Merriam-Webster): 14th century English “slave” derived from Middle English “sclave”; Middle English “sclave” derived from Anglo-French “esclave”; Anglo-French “esclave” derived from Medieval Latin “sclavus”, Medieval Latin noun “sclavus” derived from the Medieval Latin name Sclavus for the Slav people (Merriam Webster: Slav, “akin to Old Russian Slověne”, means “a person whose native tongue is a Slavic language”). In other words, by the 14th century, the word slave becomes part of the English language deriving from Anglo-French, but its semantic origins are the historic events in the early Middle Ages in Europe.

Your reference to Webster entry is enlightening because it brings to the surface a fact that Merriam Webster leaves out: German’s enslavement of Slavonians. If this is true then this narrows the semantic origin of the word “slave” from the general enslavement of slavs, to the frequent enslavement specifically of Slavonians. Yet, the fact that a dictionary would not make this etymological specification raises a suspicion that this is a contestable matter.

Nevertheless, you are not acting in good faith when you claim that the meaning of “Slavonian” probably does not have anything to do with Slav. The Webster dictionary you refer to indicates that “Slavonian” is defined with Slav, which means that to understand the name you have to refer to the meaning of Slav: “A native or inhabitant of Slavonia; ethnologically, a Slav” (Webster Source: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Slavonian (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Slavonian)). Slav, in its turn, is defined just as you argued before:


Any member of the people of Eastern Europe or Russian Asia who speak a Slavonic language. Etymology: Slav \Slav\, noun; plural Slavs. [A word originally meaning, intelligible, and used to contrast the people so called with foreigners who spoke languages unintelligible to the Slavs; akin to OSlav. slovo word, slava fame, Sanskrit [,c]ru to hear.
(Webster Source: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Slav)

Furthermore, the same Webster dictionary gives a definition of “slave” by reference not to Slavonians/Germans, but to all slavs of the Eastern Europe:


“For centuries, the Slavic people of Eastern Europe were the primary source of slaves for Europe and the Near East. Because of this, the word for slave in numerous European languages is derived from the word for Slavs—the English word being a clear example.”
(Webster Source: http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/Slave)


Slavery:
It might be true that slavery did not exist in exactly the same form in Russia as it did in ancient Greece or Roman Empire. The slavery in US and Britain was also quite different from classical slavery. What was the same is that people were owned by their masters, bought and sold as merchandize, forced to work at the will of their master with or without compensation, beaten or killed at the will of their master, and, burned (in the early years) at the burials of their masters. The original form of slavery was shaped by the trade interests of the Varangians, who picked up people and simply sold them down the stream – where they typically became full blown slaves. As the Varangians settled, and became nobility with subsequent assimilation, the trade of slaves turned into their exploitation (холо́пство). Ultimately, however different this slavery was from the classical slavery, it is this human socio-political condition of Slavs that gave rise (according to Webster definition) to the meaning of slave in Swedish and European languages.

City:
Nestor (allegedly), living in the early 12th century, does say that “the first settlers in Novgorod were Slavs” who prior to 862 “drove the Varangians back beyond the sea”. But again, there is no archeological evidence to suggest that Novgorod existed in the 9th century. It is more probable that Nestor, relying on anecdotal historical evidence about events 200 years earlier, refers to the same settlement (Holmgard aka Ryurikovo Gorodishche) as Ibn Rusta who was describing contemporary events. Furthermore, the fact that Nestor mentions refusing “to pay tribute to the Varangians” and “driving the Varangians back beyond the sea” indicates that Varangians exercised military control of this area prior to 862.


“The four tribes who had been forced to pay tribute to the Varangians--Chuds, Slavs, Merians, and Krivichians] drove the Varangians back beyond the sea, refused to pay them further tribute, and set out to govern themselves. But there was no law among them, and tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against the other. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us, and judge us according to custom [po nravu]". Thus they went overseas to the Varangians, to the Rus. These particular Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans and Angles, and still others Gotlanders, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichians and the Ves then said to the Rus, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come reign as princes, rule over us". Three brothers, with their kinfolk, were selected. They brought with them all the Rus and migrated. The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sineus, in Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. From these Varangians, the Russian land received its name [prozvalas’ Russkaia zemlia]. Thus those who live in Novgorod are descended from the Varangian tribe, but earlier they were Slavs… The Varangians in these cities are colonists, but the first settlers in Novgorod were Slavs; in Polotsk, Krivichians; in Beloozero, Ves; in Rostov, Merians; and in Murom, Muromians. Rurik had dominion over all these folk.”
( Source: http://www.uoregon.edu/~kimball/chronicle.htm (http://www.uoregon.edu/~kimball/chronicle.htm))

Here is what the of Russian Academy of Sciences says about Holmgrad and Novgorod:


“Gorodishche (the hillfort) or as it is often named by historians since the beginning of the XIX–th century Ryurik Gorodishche well known from the Russian chronicles since 1103 (Digimon: reference to Nestor or rather the author of the Primary Chronicles!) as the residence of the Novgorod princes and one of the basic centers of the Novgorod political life, already in the IX–th century had predominated over the region… General analysis of the material culture makes it possible to mark that it was definitely influenced by the North European culture. Ethnically Gorodishche in the IX–Xth centuries was inhabited by Slavs and Scandinavians…. In the middle of the Xth century at a distance of 2 km from Gorodishche down streams the Volkhov river on the hills, which were later occupied by Novgorod, already existed some settlements. From the very foundation they contained the traces of the high social position of their inhabitants. In the Xth century these settlements developed m parallel with Gorodishche. But gradually, approximately by the beginning of the XI–th century they formed a new settlement structure and adopted a large part of Gorodishche's economic and administrative functions. In the early Xlth century under Yaroslav Vladimirovich, political alliance between the prince and Novgondian nobility resulted in the prince residence transferring directly to Yaroslavovo Dvorishche… The last step in this process was the foundation of the “New town” (Digimon: Novy Gorod or Novgorod) (new fortress) in 1044 by Vladimir Yaroslavich on the site of the bishop's yard. The given analysis permits to trace the role of Gorodishche in the rise of Novgorodian urban community and to make a number of revisions in the generally accepted conception of the Old Russian State formation. (!!)
(bold font and exclamation marks are mine; Source: http://www.archeo.ru/eng/projects/rg.htm (http://www.archeo.ru/eng/projects/rg.htm))

Novgorod developed in 1044 on the site of a Slavic settlement, thus Nestor is correct in saying that Slavs were the original settlers of Novgorod as he knew the city in 1103. But the original settlement where Rurik ruled, the center of economic and administrative functions of the area influenced by the North European culture, was Holmgrad or Rurik’s Gorodishche.

Sources:
I gave primary sources: historical chronicles and conclusions based on the archeological evidence examined by the Institute of the History of Material Culture of the Russian Academy of Sciences. You gave me your opinions supported by your 5 years of study at a university, where “Russian history was one of primary subjects”, whatever that implies. Needless to say that these are not sources of any kind; these are indirect evidence of your alleged authority on the subject based on which I should be convinced to take your word on faith. I can’t do that, primarily because for each one of your years spent in a university I have three; for each one of your university degrees I have three (and only one of them is undergraduate); I do not know how many journal publications you have, and how many years you have spent teaching arrogant 20somthing year olds, but I suspect that I beat you on that count as well.