Dmitry"baby face"Medvedev is the new Russian President [Archive]

Xaito

03-02-2008, 06:56 PM

lol yup i seen he is 1.62 also i checked a lil and source says his surname like Son of Bear or something ''not for insult to him i hope a Russian dude will write about him''

Also sources saying he was an ex-agent and clever like a fox... This is why 007 :P

PS : He is Metal&Hard Rock fan..

Any Russian interest to adopt me ? rofl

his name does not mean "son" of bear but he has bear (Medved) in his name.
He's not an ex-agent though - iirc he was docent at an university or something like this - thatswhy I don't see any 007 connections (more like Indiana Jones or something ;) ).

TopolA

03-02-2008, 08:19 PM

Congratulations to Mr.Medvedev!!!

INAT

03-02-2008, 08:24 PM

Friday, a group of Russian performance artists stripped off their clothes and started f***king in the middle of Moscow's Biology Museum in an act they called "F*ck For Medvedev!" (Actually they used the word "cub" as a play on Medvedev's name, which means "bear" in Russian.)

The performance artists are from a group called "Voina." They managed to gather a few photographers and a banner, popped a bunch of Viagra, and ****ed on the floor for about 10 minutes before getting thrown out. As you'll see in the photos, one of the chicks was pregnant, making this an "extreme hardcore" show. The dudes are hilarious looking, real **** star types, especially this one hairy little bald dude who looks like Isaac Babel, and the flabby dude with the ponytail. There must be some skank requirement for the International Performance Artists' Guild...

Their slogan "*uck For Medvedev" was first unveiled at a "Young Guards" pro-Kremlin protest rally on February 23. They held their banner up in the background until a grumpy cop took it away and threw it in his car.

http://www.exile.ru/blog/detail.php?BLOG_ID=17377&AUTHOR_ID=

OK? Whatever

ren0312

03-02-2008, 08:56 PM

Putin was the spy though - why call Medvedev 007? ;)

Maybe that is because Putin is M lol.

MichaelF

03-02-2008, 09:09 PM

http://www.youtube.com/v/GfTmjEDa-Kc

BloodyTalon

03-02-2008, 09:59 PM

Putin was the spy though - why call Medvedev 007? ;)
Cuz refering to him and Putin as Boris & Natasha would be a little too insulting.

MichaelF

03-02-2008, 10:00 PM

Are they playing "Swan Lake" on Russian TV today?

Bongopete

03-02-2008, 10:24 PM

[quote=INAT;3084207]Friday, a group of Russian performance artists stripped off their clothes and started f***king in the middle of Moscow's Biology Museum in an act they called "F*ck For Medvedev!" (Actually they used the word "cub" as a play on Medvedev's name, which means "bear" in Russian.)

Hey....was THIS for real????? One of the guys looked a little like a beefy Putin!!!!!

Nice to see some people have a sense of humor.

INAT

03-02-2008, 10:27 PM

Lienad

03-03-2008, 12:04 AM

Vodka For Everybody!!!!!

1911-a1

03-03-2008, 12:45 AM

Congrats Medved!
http://static.b92.net/pics/gallery/2008/02/131492825447c2d23471a6d374777242.jpg

Afro-European

03-03-2008, 03:59 AM

Putin and Medvedev on the Red square

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMXp-6fBSEc

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2008, 04:34 AM

p-)Bla bla bla I won, here's Mini-me bla bla bla hey Am I really only Prime minister now? Bla bla bla let's do a deal, you'll just close your eyes and think I'm still in power, and he's just there for the show.p-)

Sorry to my russian friends but that speech (about how the russian society is getting more responsible) was just so Brezhnev era.

Good luck to Mr. Medvedev.

Edit: Damn that man must go on PT, NOW.

chris450

03-03-2008, 04:47 AM

Snoshi

03-03-2008, 04:50 AM

Xaito

03-03-2008, 04:55 AM

Putin and Medvedev on the Red square

haha like popstars - but Medvedev must feel bad because the crowd wanted only Putin ;)

Snoshi

03-03-2008, 04:59 AM

haha like popstars - but Medvedev must feel bad because the crowd wanted only Putin ;)

Medvedev lacks charisma and he is just plain boring..

chris450

03-03-2008, 05:02 AM

Medvedev lacks charisma and he is just plain boring..

compared to what? not to mind the fact that they elected him to protect Russian interests and not to entertain..

Snoshi

03-03-2008, 05:05 AM

compared to what? not to mind the fact that they elected him to protect Russian interests and not to entertain..

Compared to Putin.. Russians elected Medvedev because of he relationship with Putin.. And not because he is a genius.

IsraDani

03-03-2008, 05:25 AM

at least he wants to keep a good relation with the west and not arguing about the Nabucco pipeline (here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabucco_Pipeline)some info if you dont know).
good nomination by putin.

chris450

03-03-2008, 05:34 AM

Compared to Putin.. Russians elected Medvedev because of he relationship with Putin.. And not because he is a genius.

i believe what you are trying to say is "relationship with Putin" = "will follow Putins policies" ..and given the fact that Putin has brought Russia from the laughing stock (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/04/23/yeltsin.jpg) of the neighborhood to a respected power by friends and foes ,they have a pretty damn good reason to vote for that

that may be something that creates discomfort for those who want Russia in debt and with no weight , but its a reality

Afro-European

03-03-2008, 06:01 AM

As of now they want Putin but,the crowd will get used to him.For sure.

haha like popstars - but Medvedev must feel bad because the crowd wanted only Putin ;)

achilles

03-03-2008, 06:05 AM

Medvedev lacks charisma and he is just plain boring..

Well, Putin is not exactly Andy Kaufman, to begin with...p-)

Afro-European

03-03-2008, 06:05 AM

The same thing was said about V.V.Putin when he took power in 1999.Khodorovski,Guzinski,Poltanin,Abramovich,Chubais,Nemtsov,Berezovski, etc thought they could easily manipulate him from behind the scene.We all know what has become of some of them when Putin showed his true face.Dmitry Mevedev will for sure be his own man.

Medvedev lacks charisma and he is just plain boring..

Breakfast in Vegas

03-03-2008, 06:11 AM

Well good luck to him. It's like taking over a championship football team from a charismatic iconic coach... going to be tough for him to win over the club supporters.

Here's to hoping he doesn't f$%& everything up! :)

Xaito

03-03-2008, 06:11 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/GfTmjEDa-Kc

I prefer this Rock version by the way ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pavbnb9rD6Y

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2008, 06:19 AM

Brezhnev you say? p-)
http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5792/brezhnevutinnu2.jpg

I see you foiled ze evil Kommunist Plot. You win.

Ah ah Susumu you're in denial.

Stonewall71

03-03-2008, 07:22 AM

Putin's policy will continue hence the distaste..the same people cursing Putin are somewhat nostalgic to Gorbys pizza commercials and Yeltsin's vodka breath- its understandable- :)

cant have it all lads...congrats to Medvedev

Agreed, Just hope he continues Putin's policy , specially in getting Russia strong again in the world scene!!!!

Snoshi

03-03-2008, 07:27 AM

Agreed, Just hope he continues Putin's policy , specially in getting Russia strong again in the world scene!!!!

It was not Putin's policies that made Russia "stronger", but natural growth.. Tell me something that has changed in Russia that Putin was directly responsible for? Almost any other president could have done the same job because after Yelstin it could not have gone any worse.

Switek

03-03-2008, 07:29 AM

Medvedev? Aaaa Medvedev! - the guy from operation "succession". It's no news anyway IMHO. http://www.nfow.pl/images/smiles/ziewa.gif

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2008, 08:08 AM

It was not Putin's policies that made Russia "stronger", but natural growth.. Tell me something that has changed in Russia that Putin was directly responsible for? Almost any other president could have done the same job because after Yelstin it could not have gone any worse.

Ehem...it could have gone worse.

As first step mister P has regained the advantage against the regions strengthening the hold of the Federal Authority on it entities.

He Put some of the free lance oligarchs on a short leash and most effectievely responded to critical political issues (such as the revival of the CIS, offering an alternative to Central Asian autocrats to the very picky US administration).

The man is not a savior, but he is a true Russian, unlike some that packed for somewhere else.

Snoshi

03-03-2008, 08:12 AM

Ehem...it could have gone worse.

As first step mister P has regained the advantage against the regions strengthening the hold of the Federal Authority on it entities.

He Put some of the free lance oligarchs on a short leash and most effectievely responded to critical political issues (such as the revival of the CIS, offering an alternative to Central Asian autocrats to the very picky US administration).

The man is not a savior, but he is a true Russian, unlike some that packed for somewhere else.

I agree. But what i am trying to say is that like you pointed it out in the end, Putin is not "messiah". Any other decent politician could have done the same job as Putin. And of course if price of oil would be much lower then you would not see the same "revival" of Russia.

achilles

03-03-2008, 08:28 AM

I agree. But what i am trying to say is that like you pointed it out in the end, Putin is not "messiah". Any other decent politician could have done the same job as Putin. And of course if price of oil would be much lower then you would not see the same "revival" of Russia.

This is purely hypothetical. We cannot know what would happen, if it was someone else in Putin's shoes.

Putin took over, her run the country firmly and effectively and he delivered. He did it and not someone else. Sure, oil prices helped him a lot, but still...

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2008, 08:29 AM

I agree. But what i am trying to say is that like you pointed it out in the end, Putin is not "messiah". Any other decent politician could have done the same job as Putin. And of course if price of oil would be much lower then you would not see the same "revival" of Russia.

Mhh 'course Russia does not need any savior right now, simply stability and order, in a decade the trend would be different, but right now he's the man.

OUps, no Mr. Medvedev is the man.

As for the Oil and gas revenues, gosh I wish you guys looked Russia more closely sometimes, It is not some ME petromonarchy. Every sector in that place is changing and evolving...

GodlessAmerica!

03-03-2008, 09:01 AM

It was not Putin's policies that made Russia "stronger", but natural growth..

Natural growth? What do you mean?

Tell me something that has changed in Russia that Putin was directly responsible for?

Among many other things:
He had nationalized natural resource industry.
He had supressed separatist sentiments in some parts of Russia.

Almost any other president could have done the same job because after Yelstin it could not have gone any worse.

Nothing of the kind. It took incredible efforts from Putin to deprive oligarhs of their political power.

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2008, 09:01 AM

Natural growth? What do you mean?

Among many other things:
He had nationalized natural resource industry.
He had supressed separatist sentiments in some parts of Russia.

Nothing of the kind. It took incredible efforts from Putin to deprive oligarhs of their political power.

Litterallyp-).

GodlessAmerica!

03-03-2008, 09:06 AM

As for the Oil and gas revenues, gosh I wish you guys looked Russia more closely sometimes, It is not some ME petromonarchy. Every sector in that place is changing and evolving...

Really? Could you please enlarge on this statement?

KoTeMoRe

03-03-2008, 09:13 AM

Really? Could you please enlarge on this statement?

Well adress the current median/average spending and it's modal value and compare it with 5 yers ago.

Both have risen to almost 1985 values PPP.

I didn't knew the russian federation was giving away oil money, or that every russian was extracting oil on his back yard.

Be real. The country, is de facto moving towards a new direction. Foreign investment is slowly penetrating Russia, and I think that is the next challenge.

sosed

03-03-2008, 09:19 AM

GodlessAmerica!

03-03-2008, 09:25 AM

Be real.

Thats exactly what Im trying to do.
Dont get me wrong. I do support siloviki and their course. According to the macroeconomical statistics the life in Russia has improved during Putins presidency. But when I ask people who live in Russia what exactly have changed over the last eight years, I hear nothing clear from them.

Afro-European

03-03-2008, 09:37 AM

Is the Russian "resurgence" due to Siloviki?

Thats exactly what Im trying to do.
Dont get me wrong. I do support siloviki and their course. According to the macroeconomical statistics the life in Russia has improved during Putins presidency. But when I ask people who live in Russia what exactly have changed over the last eight years, I hear nothing clear from them.

AlexMartin2

03-03-2008, 09:39 AM

Thats exactly what Im trying to do.
Dont get me wrong. I do support siloviki and their course. According to the macroeconomical statistics the life in Russia has improved during Putins presidency. But when I ask people who live in Russia what exactly have changed over the last eight years, I hear nothing clear from them.

We got used to good life very quickly :)

GodlessAmerica!

03-03-2008, 09:43 AM

Is the Russian "resurgence" due to Siloviki?

Of course. Whom else?

GodlessAmerica!

03-03-2008, 09:47 AM

We got used to good life very quickly :)

You know better.

daily666

03-03-2008, 10:14 AM

Not that the news are a big suprise, but Good Luck to Russia.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-03-2008, 10:27 AM

Congratulations to Russia for new president. I know not every one likes Putin and Medvedev, but he was elected with big majority. To see the real effects of Putin's and now Medvedev's politics and national programs we will have to wait for decade or two, because Russia is a very big country and to modernize it you need time.
Not only that, I think the largest challenges are yet to come, mostly in the form of social reform and restructure.

Putin certainly was the right man to have in charge in the last 8 years and by any objective definition he did a great job. Most of all, he didn't make any major screw ups and kept all the other power-hungry factions at bay. Bolstered by extreme popularity and seemingly endless revenues, he has brought Russia back to the table.

Medvedev now will face more daunting challenges, particularly reforming and rebuilding Russia's decrepit (and largely ignored) health and social systems. They need a lot of attention. I hope he is up to the challenge and I hope that he can garner enough support to carry out reforms without having to sacrifice Russia's wealth to the ravenous corruption of Russia's politicians and civil servants and instead invest it in programs that help real Russians and ensure that Russia's future is secured.

Bongopete

03-03-2008, 12:15 PM

RomanS

03-03-2008, 12:50 PM

Congrats to Medputin

Laworkerbee

03-03-2008, 12:52 PM

Mr Medvedev looks like he is smart capable man, I hope he serves Russia well.

shaytan

03-03-2008, 01:03 PM

Medvedev now will face more daunting challenges, particularly reforming and rebuilding Russia's decrepit (and largely ignored) health and social systems. They need a lot of attention. I hope he is up to the challenge and I hope that he can garner enough support to carry out reforms without having to sacrifice Russia's wealth to the ravenous corruption of Russia's politicians and civil servants and instead invest it in programs that help real Russians and ensure that Russia's future is secured.

Well, Medvedev is not exactly the "babyface" he seems to be. He has some past history of various successful and not-so-successful projects. Look up "Ilim Pulp Enterprise" and his involvement there in early 90s.

Hopefully he will overcome the popularity of predecessor and will become a good president on his own. Time will show, but at least he gives a good impression to many people, compared with other candidates.

More information available in russian:

http://www.anticompromat.ru/medvedevd

Lienad

03-03-2008, 02:13 PM

looks like another strong leader. Congrats and good luck

phoebus

03-03-2008, 02:37 PM

Good luck to Medvedev, I hope he can turn out to be foxier than the fox, with the later being Putin. :)

Afro-European

03-03-2008, 03:24 PM

Weren't they more interested about fighting for power than about getting the country on a good track?(Igor Sechin vs Viktor Cherkessov and many others).I hope Putin will keep those Siloviki under control otherwise Medvedev 'd have a hard time implementing his policies.

Of course. Whom else?

Ulytau

03-03-2008, 03:41 PM

his name does not mean "son" of bear but he has bear (Medved) in his name.
He's not an ex-agent though - iirc he was docent at an university or something like this - thatswhy I don't see any 007 connections (more like Indiana Jones or something ;) ).

Also will be connection with Vladimir Putin too also its looking like he is a honest man and clever..

About ''Bear'' if i know true its really good tittle in Russian language also it wasnt for insult for too only wrote what i read from a site :P

but still saying he is a metal fan :D woot

Wanna adopt me :| ?

Xaito

03-03-2008, 03:54 PM

Wanna adopt me :| ?
are you a hot chick? ;)

Ulytau

03-03-2008, 04:00 PM

are you a hot chick? ;)

22 male http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0035.gif

Doublethinker

03-04-2008, 12:53 AM

dimasorokine

03-04-2008, 02:28 AM

The first Jewish state leader in Russian history. Even Trotsky said, that he, being a Jew, shouldn't become the head of the RSFSR and asked Lenin to become a prime-minister instead.

Should be interesting.

Bah, I'll be the first to bring up that many of the Oligarchs in the 90s had Jewish roots and had absolutely no loyalty to Russia or its people - many ran to Israel or England taking "their" money with them...

Medvedev's mother possibly being Jewish simply does NOT matter. He's not part of some Jewish clan looking out for Jewish interests, he's part of the siloviki - somewhere religion doesn't matter.

-Dima

KoTeMoRe

03-04-2008, 02:42 AM

The first Jewish state leader in Russian history. Even Trotsky said, that he, being a Jew, shouldn't become the head of the RSFSR and asked Lenin to become a prime-minister instead.

Should be interesting.

Mhh I was going to point that out too...but to be honest...I'm a bit puzzled by the fuss some russians make out of he being half-hebraic.

Now you said it, him wearing a leather jacket brought me back some trotskist images.p-)

Flamming_Python

03-04-2008, 04:53 AM

The first Jewish state leader in Russian history. Even Trotsky said, that he, being a Jew, shouldn't become the head of the RSFSR and asked Lenin to become a prime-minister instead.

Should be interesting.

Well some of our best leaders have been 'non-russians'. Ethnic origin is not important, what they do for the motherland is...

Bah, I'll be the first to bring up that many of the Oligarchs in the 90s had Jewish roots and had absolutely no loyalty to Russia or its people - many ran to Israel or England taking "their" money with them...

Absolutely the same as Russian oligarchs.

Snoshi

03-04-2008, 05:01 AM

Absolutely the same as Russian oligarchs.

I post a great quote

When it's a question of money, everybody is of the same religion.
Voltaire

SrB-23Q

03-04-2008, 07:50 AM

congrats 2 Medvedev

Havoc345

03-04-2008, 09:31 AM

and given the fact that Putin has brought Russia from the laughing stock (http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/images/2007/04/23/yeltsin.jpg) of the neighborhood to a respected power by friends and foes ,they have a pretty damn good reason to vote for that

Care to elaborate on the "policies" that Putin used to accomplish *cough* Killing of Journalists/ Elimination of Opposition

Afro-European

03-04-2008, 10:26 AM

Dmirti Medvedev is not a Siloviki.He's a lawyer.

Bah, I'll be the first to bring up that many of the Oligarchs in the 90s had Jewish roots and had absolutely no loyalty to Russia or its people - many ran to Israel or England taking "their" money with them...

Medvedev's mother possibly being Jewish simply does NOT matter. He's not part of some Jewish clan looking out for Jewish interests, he's part of the siloviki - somewhere religion doesn't matter.

-Dima

Xaito

03-04-2008, 10:28 AM

Care to elaborate on the "policies" that Putin used to accomplish *cough* Killing of Journalists/ Elimination of Opposition

do you? :)

dimasorokine

03-04-2008, 02:02 PM

Dmirti Medvedev is not a Siloviki.He's a lawyer.

Well I guess he's in the circle now.
-Dima

KoTeMoRe

03-04-2008, 03:06 PM

Well I guess he's in the circle now.
-Dima

Yes, he can't possibly ignore the circle.

I hope Ivanov gets some other bone to chow, I felt he deserved a little bit more.

Andreas

03-04-2008, 03:21 PM

So how much influence do you guys think Putin wil have when he leaves office?

KoTeMoRe

03-04-2008, 03:31 PM

So how much influence do you guys think Putin wil have when he leaves office?

Enoughp-).

Beat that.

Kilgor

03-04-2008, 05:01 PM

Just run with this for a second,

But isnt medvedev going to be the mild mannered, dependable, loyal and trustworthy seat warmer until Putin comes back from his toilet break ?

Xaito

03-04-2008, 07:16 PM

Just run with this for a second,

But isnt medvedev going to be the mild mannered, dependable, loyal and trustworthy seat warmer until Putin comes back from his toilet break ?

We'll see - but I seriously doubt that Putin will be back as president.
Maybe if Medvedev somehow ****s up an they'll need a replacement who is liked by the people to keep the power.

CPL Trevoga

03-04-2008, 07:26 PM

I really like Medvedev, but If I was in Russia, I would vote for Communists. In a sense it's all a bad choice. It's like US election 2000, Bush Jr. or Gore.

Xaito

03-04-2008, 07:42 PM

If I was in Russia, I would vote for Communists.

any reason for that or is it just because in your opinion Russia just needs to be a communist country p-)

Kak

03-04-2008, 08:53 PM

We'll see - but I seriously doubt that Putin will be back as president.
Maybe if Medvedev somehow ****s up an they'll need a replacement who is liked by the people to keep the power.
I dunno, I think Putin is going to run again in 2012 (he is allowed to through the constitution, nothing undemocratic about it). He's still wildly popular, and I'm sure he feels that he is doing the country great things with his leadership, so I think he will want to run again.

KoTeMoRe

03-05-2008, 01:41 AM

I really like Medvedev, but If I was in Russia, I would vote for Communists. In a sense it's all a bad choice. It's like US election 2000, Bush Jr. or Gore.

You can't be serious!? The wilderness of this post makes me drink large amounts of old sweet jenever.

One for comrade Trevoga.:)

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 04:53 AM

Yes, he can't possibly ignore the circle.

I hope Ivanov gets some other bone to chow, I felt he deserved a little bit more.

Ivanov made too many mistakes. He simply made some remarks with regards to his public approval when talking of hazing victims.

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 04:56 AM

I didn't vote since I didn't want to take part in this knockabout comedy of elections.

McCain is the only one who got that right: ""Yesterday we saw what is unfortunately yet another step away from democracy in Russia. In an election that was uncontested, where opposition candidates were either suppressed or arrested, where the result was foreordained by the manipulations of a corrupt and undemocratic regime, the one thing that was never in doubt was the result. It is a tragedy of history that at this moment, when the democratic tide has reached more nations than ever before, the Russian people who rose in unison in 1991 to end totalitarian rule backed by a pervasive and cruel KGB would, after less than two decades, be again deprived of the opportunity to choose their leaders in a free and open contest.""

Serjey

03-05-2008, 07:08 AM

asch

03-05-2008, 07:43 AM

McCain is the only one who got that right
do you seriously think that McCain, if elected, will hold such stance against our government elected by majority?

DRA

03-05-2008, 07:48 AM

I didn't vote since I didn't want to take part in this knockabout comedy of elections.

Then you have no right to complain for the next 4 years.

As for McCain, he is a senile fool who is still mentally stuck in Vietnam prison.
The irony is that the West always made fun of the "70+" club of the USSR leaders and they very well might get one of their own.

Afro-European

03-05-2008, 08:10 AM

McCain is insane for shure
Popularity and respect to leader and his choice doesn`t mean undemocratic regime.
Russia has been consulting with the West too long, its already time for Russia to say F*** OFF to the West. Dont interfere into our business.

Russia and the West need each other.One can't be more important than the other.Russia can't get its sh!t together without the West.

Havoc345

03-05-2008, 09:19 AM

McCain is insane for shure
Popularity and respect to leader and his choice doesn`t mean undemocratic regime.
Russia has been consulting with the West too long, its already time for Russia to say F*** OFF to the West. Dont interfere into our business.

Yea they tried that during a little thing called the Cold War , if I remeber correctly it didn't work out to well.

Flamming_Python

03-05-2008, 10:12 AM

Yea they tried that during a little thing called the Cold War , if I remeber correctly it didn't work out to well.

You can argue though, that the Cold War propelled both nations to the top of the global food chain and kept them there.

Sergei

03-05-2008, 10:34 AM

Havoc345

03-05-2008, 03:00 PM

You can argue though, that the Cold War propelled both nations to the top of the global food chain and kept them there.

I wouldn't say Russia is at the top of the food chain right now.

Xaito

03-05-2008, 03:05 PM

I wouldn't say Russia is at the top of the food chain right now.

read the part about opinions in sergei's post above you ;)

RomanS

03-05-2008, 03:10 PM

......double post

RomanS

03-05-2008, 03:11 PM

I wouldn't say Russia is at the top of the food chain right now.

oh you just wait

little bird told me a lot of nice big things are coming

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 03:13 PM

do you seriously think that McCain, if elected, will hold such stance against our government elected by majority?

All commie governments were 'elected by majority' too.

Its not my government, its occupation government.

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 03:18 PM

Then you have no right to complain for the next 4 years.

As for McCain, he is a senile fool who is still mentally stuck in Vietnam prison.
The irony is that the West always made fun of the "70+" club of the USSR leaders and they very well might get one of their own.

What do you know, you know ****.

Is there 'against all candidates' option? Removed.

Is there Yavlinsky? Removed.

Is there Limonov? Rermoved.

Is there Kasjanov? Removed.

Is there Khodorkovsky? In jail.

Is there at least SOMEONE to vote for, if we are forbidden to express are distate for all candidates? No. Even Nemtsov was removed.

Well, who's remaining? 2 jews, both of who appeared in politics a couple of years ago, one of whom proclaims to be a freemason (medvedev and Bogdanov), one half-jewish clown Zhirinovsky, and a Ukrainian die-hard commie Zjuganov.

A HELL of a choice.

RomanS

03-05-2008, 03:23 PM

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 03:36 PM

oh you just wait

little bird told me a lot of nice big things are coming

What, Putin is elected Dear Leader, and President for Life?

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 03:38 PM

stop whining already, and enjoy your internet privileges given to you by Evil Putin's regime

double dumbass

They were given to me by Yeltsin and Putin simply hasn't invented a way to take them away to cover it up as a 'battle against terrorism'.

By appealing to labels and personal slurs, you only show your lack of arguements. But then again, you really don't have anything useful to say, do you?

RomanS

03-05-2008, 03:39 PM

What, Putin is elected Dear Leader, and President for Life?

rather have him be the president, than anyone who thinks like you

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 03:41 PM

rather have him be the president, than anyone who thinks like you

Another one of these witty 'NO, YOU...!!!" one-liners? Nigga, please, at least try to defend your position. You only act as a living proof of all sterotypes about 'stooopid russians'.

Elemental666

03-05-2008, 03:45 PM

Well, who's remaining? 2 jews, both of who appeared in politics a couple of years ago, one of whom proclaims to be a freemason (medvedev and Bogdanov), one half-jewish clown Zhirinovsky, and a Ukrainian die-hard commie Zjuganov.

Is there a problem?

RomanS

03-05-2008, 03:46 PM

Another one of these witty 'NO, YOU...!!!" one-liners? Nigga, please, at least try to defend your position. You only act as a living proof of all sterotypes about 'stooopid russians'.

right, talk about stupid, while being elected double dumbass of the week.

one brave mother fuker you are.

RomanS

03-05-2008, 03:46 PM

Is there a problem?

no just another anti-semetic Putin basher from a nice comfy apartment with internet connection and too much time on his hands.

Elemental666

03-05-2008, 03:48 PM

no just another anti-semetic Putin basher from a nice comfy apartment with internet connection and too much time on his hands.

I certainly didn't label him as such, just asked what is wrong with them being Jews.

Zhirinovsky is bat-sh_t crazy though, I agree. Funny, but crazy.

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 04:09 PM

Is there a problem?

Yes, I think a country with a population of 142 million, more than 110 million of whom are ethnic Russians could have at least ONE ethnic Russian as a candidate?

And yes, I'm a nationalist, if that's what you asking.

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 04:11 PM

right, talk about stupid, while being elected double dumbass of the week.

one brave mother fuker you are.

Ooh, them witty replies just keep on piling up, you topic dodger you.

Care to repeat the same thing about my status for the third time? Teletubbies with their 'a joke repeated twice, is twice as funny' must be your all-times favourite ;)

Elemental666

03-05-2008, 04:12 PM

Yes, I think a country with a population of 142 million, more than 110 million of whom are ethnic Russians could have at least ONE ethnic Russian as a candidate?

Try harder. Good luck.

Doublethinker

03-05-2008, 04:12 PM

no just another anti-semetic Putin basher from a nice comfy apartment with internet connection and too much time on his hands.

wait wait wait, isn't the fact that Putin took all the wealth from evil greedy Jewish oligarchs is the main reason you love him? Make up your mind, goddamit ;)

dimasorokine

03-05-2008, 04:55 PM

Try harder. Good luck.

I agree with doublethinker, I'd prefer there to be a majority ethnic Russian choice of candidates and representitives in government...

However, if an ethnic Jew, Tatar, Georgian - whatever is the best possible choice I'm alright with that.

-Dima

Lienad

03-05-2008, 04:56 PM

Another one of these witty 'NO, YOU...!!!" one-liners? Nigga, please, at least try to defend your position. You only act as a living proof of all sterotypes about 'stooopid russians'.

not only is he a moron, but he is also racist by the word of it.

intelligenzija

03-05-2008, 05:05 PM

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3218/freedomofchoicegp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the whole thing sucked because the only opposition was the old communist guy.

Laworkerbee

03-05-2008, 05:20 PM

I agree with doublethinker

Quoted to hold it against you in the future p-)

dimasorokine

03-05-2008, 05:21 PM

LOL, you ass :)
-Dima

Afro-European

03-05-2008, 05:38 PM

Another one of these witty 'NO, YOU...!!!" one-liners? Nigga, please, at least try to defend your position. You only act as a living proof of all sterotypes about 'stooopid russians'.

Want you refrain from such a language? Do you have a "ghetto pass?

KoTeMoRe

03-05-2008, 06:56 PM

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/3218/freedomofchoicegp4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

the whole thing sucked because the only opposition was the old communist guy.

Hey don't you know Commies can win elections now...as opposed to must.

CPL Trevoga

03-05-2008, 09:10 PM

You can't be serious!? The wilderness of this post makes me drink large amounts of old sweet jenever.

One for comrade Trevoga.:)

Just to answer your question and Susumi's, I don't think a corporate lawer is a good choice. CPRF is not CPSU, they are basically Socialists, if you look at their program and they not against business.

intelligenzija

03-06-2008, 12:54 AM

KoTeMoRe

I don't understand :(

KoTeMoRe

03-06-2008, 02:46 AM

Trevoga tis just a joke (I still have my Red youth card). You never know.

Intelligenzija...another joke. Commies just made history, they won a democratic election, in Cyprus.rofl

All the Political Science manuals are to be definitively altered.

Oh where is Kilgor.p-)

Serjey

03-06-2008, 03:09 AM

Yea they tried that during a little thing called the Cold War , if I remeber correctly it didn't work out to well.
I dont mean isolate from the west, i mean keep trading and other stuff but without telling how to rule country. China has no problem with it, like Saudi Arabia, Arab Emirates, and alot of other countries. So i dont understand why are russians so SPECIAL, that the West always tries to teach Russia. Maybe bacause we are white? I just dont get it. Russia in not West nor East, its multinational country with differ way, has always been and will always be.

Sergei

03-06-2008, 04:37 AM

I certainly didn't label him as such, just asked what is wrong with them being Jews.

Zhirinovsky is bat-sh_t crazy though, I agree. Funny, but crazy.

Zhirinovsky would fit right in with McCain and other right-wing wackos. The only difference is his allegiance.

Snoshi

03-06-2008, 04:48 AM

Zhirinovsky would fit right in with McCain and other right-wing wackos. The only difference is his allegiance.

Dont compare Zherinovsky with Mccain.. Sometimes i wonder if some people have heard McCain speak or watched hes platform..

IDF_TANKER

03-06-2008, 05:02 AM

What do you know, you know ****.

Is there 'against all candidates' option? Removed.

Is there Yavlinsky? Removed.

Is there Limonov? Rermoved.

Is there Kasjanov? Removed.

Is there Khodorkovsky? In jail.

Is there at least SOMEONE to vote for, if we are forbidden to express are distate for all candidates? No. Even Nemtsov was removed.

Well, who's remaining? 2 jews, both of who appeared in politics a couple of years ago, one of whom proclaims to be a freemason (medvedev and Bogdanov), one half-jewish clown Zhirinovsky, and a Ukrainian die-hard commie Zjuganov.

A HELL of a choice.

LOLz! But what about Yavlinsky and Khodorkovsky? They are also half-Jews, aren't they? Ironically, if you look at the left opposition you'll see that it's being led by Kasparov, who by a complete coincident is also a half-Jew. It seems that the only politically concerned people in the mother Russia are Jews (well, half's, to be more precise). In your place I would blame your fellow nationals Russians for the political indifference and not (half-)Jews taking their places(according to you anyway).

Sergei

03-06-2008, 07:18 AM

http://ua.fishki.net/picsw/032008/04/bonus2/4.jpg

Apparently Chuck Norris is very popular in Russia and will get a few votes as well. :)

Sergei

03-06-2008, 07:18 AM

Dont compare Zherinovsky with Mccain.. Sometimes i wonder if some people have heard McCain speak or watched hes platform..

Yeah, yeah, Cold War version 1.0 bot.

Snoshi

03-06-2008, 07:19 AM

Yeah, yeah, Cold War version 1.0 bot.

Why is McCain a "cold war bot"?

Brute

03-06-2008, 07:47 AM

Why is McCain a "cold war bot"?

John McCain

As long as McCain's in the race, expect more jabs at the Kremlin. The funny thing is that the senator from Arizona isn't even a new cold warrior, he's 1.0, the real thing: a Commie-cursing Curtis Lemay-era bred Eagle Scout who still thinks Gorbachev has something up his sleeve and who still refers to "Czechoslovakia.&quot. McCain may have put his Vietnam demons to rest, but the old man still has a Russia bug up his ass the size of a bacci ball. In a GOP debate in Orlando, McCain warned that Moscow was causing "severe" problems for the U.S. and promised "tough times ahead." If the Bush-Putin era is replaced by a McCain-Medvedev match-up, it's real easy to imagine things getting off on the wrong foot and staying there.

http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=16471&IBLOCK_ID=35

Snoshi

03-06-2008, 07:52 AM

http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=16471&IBLOCK_ID=35

Lol an exile article.. You can do better then that. Just because he does not like Russia does not mean that he is an "cold-war bot".

Brute

03-06-2008, 08:03 AM

Lol an exile article.. You can do better then that. Just because he does not like Russia does not mean that he is an "cold-war bot".

His dislike for Russia stems from the Cold War era, even a blind man can see that. Next time, try reading the article before commenting and dismissing it out of hand, Mr "Putin did nothing, Russia improved by itself" man. If there's anything in it you wish to factually disprove, then please, be my guest.

KoTeMoRe

03-06-2008, 08:35 AM

LOLz! But what about Yavlinsky and Khodorkovsky? They are also half-Jews, aren't they? Ironically, if you look at the left opposition you'll see that it's being led by Kasparov, who by a complete coincident is also a half-Jew. It seems that the only politically concerned people in the mother Russia are Jews (well, half's, to be more precise). In your place I would blame your fellow nationals Russians for the political indifference and not (half-)Jews taking their places(according to you anyway).

Left opposition? Kasparov?

Had you said Limoncello granat, okay but kasparov is as leftist as I am jewish.:roll:

Edit: Natural GROWTH...Brute.

IDF_TANKER

03-06-2008, 09:26 AM

Left opposition? Kasparov?

Had you said Limoncello granat, okay but kasparov is as leftist as I am jewish.:roll:

Edit: Natural GROWTH...Brute.
I admit, I'm not an expert on the Russian politics. But Kasparov all the time talks about social issues, accusing Putin that he created prosperity only for the rich people and rest of the Russia is poor as it was... Doesn't it put him on the left part of the political map?

KoTeMoRe

03-06-2008, 09:33 AM

I admit, I'm not an expert on the Russian politics. But Kasparov all the time talks about social issues, accusing Putin that he created prosperity only for the rich people and rest of the Russia is poor as it was... Doesn't it put him on the left part of the political map?

No it puts him at the only string you can actually play in Russia when you're broke and helpless. Populism.

His rants don't have any sort of substance, he keeps stating wrong and biaised facts, like when he explains that Gazprom is a money laundering machine and other financial Bollocks.

He and all his clique of liberal right wing nutters are only luring the people of Russia into the same post-Soviet trap. The only man of confidence in the bunch is Zjuganov (confidence intended as true to his -peculiar- ideas). But as much as I would like some original solution to Russia's problem, the come back of the Communists is not an option (not because I hate them, but because the West has irrepressible automatisms when facing Commies).

intelligenzija

03-06-2008, 09:55 AM

RomanS

03-06-2008, 12:27 PM

Dont compare Zherinovsky with Mccain.. Sometimes i wonder if some people have heard McCain speak or watched hes platform..

I've heard him talk

WHen he called Putin president of Germany

Snoshi

03-06-2008, 12:30 PM

I've heard him talk

WHen he called Putin president of Germany

Oh cmon.. He is an old man. Still i dont see how Sergei can compare him with Zhirinovksy.

Btw Putin once controlled Germany, when Shröder was in power p-)

RomanS

03-06-2008, 02:03 PM

Oh cmon.. He is an old man. Still i dont see how Sergei can compare him with Zhirinovksy.

Btw Putin once controlled Germany, when Shröder was in power p-)

When I look into McCain's eyes, I see 3 letters
C I A

Stonewall71

03-06-2008, 03:35 PM

I've heard him talk

WHen he called Putin president of Germany

it´s the alzheimer....rofl

KoTeMoRe

03-06-2008, 04:39 PM

When I look into McCain's eyes, I see 3 letters
C I A

Surprizingly he's not a trench coat.

Kilgor

03-06-2008, 05:36 PM

Zhirinovsky would fit right in with McCain and other right-wing wackos. The only difference is his allegiance.

Mc Cain isnt a drunk who starts fist fights.

KoTeMoRe

03-06-2008, 05:37 PM

Mc Cain isnt a drunk who starts fist fights.

No but the current US president was.:roll:

DRA

03-06-2008, 05:44 PM

Mc Cain isnt a drunk who starts fist fights.
No he is not, he is just an old senile bitter fool and miserable prick.

You see, Zhirinovsky has been on the Russian political arena (in the very spotlight of it) for almost 20 years.
Fights and rediculous statements are just the PR theatrics but behind it is a very very capable politician.
Compare Russian political landscape of the 90s and now - Zhirinovsky and Zjuhganov are the only meaningful survivors.

KoTeMoRe

03-06-2008, 05:47 PM

No he is not, he is just an old senile bitter fool and miserable prick.

You see, Zhirinovsky has been on the Russian political arena (in the very spotlight of it) for almost 20 years.
Fights and rediculous statements are just the PR theatrics but behind it is a very very capable politician.
Compare Russian political landscape of the 90s and now - Zhirinovsky and Zjuhganov are the only meaningful survivors.

Wich makes me wonder if these two are not into the Velikhi Monopoly.p-)

Havoc345

03-06-2008, 08:56 PM

No he is not, he is just an old senile bitter fool and miserable prick.

You see, Zhirinovsky has been on the Russian political arena (in the very spotlight of it) for almost 20 years.
Fights and rediculous statements are just the PR theatrics but behind it is a very very capable politician.
Compare Russian political landscape of the 90s and now - Zhirinovsky and Zjuhganov are the only meaningful survivors.

Alright I think this my pres. can beat up your pres. business is pretty childish.

DRA

03-06-2008, 10:09 PM

Alright I think this my pres. can beat up your pres. business is pretty childish.

???

Zhirininovsky is not my President and chances are will never be one.

As for Mccain, I sure do hope he will become yours, its like watching a train wreck ;)

Havoc345

03-06-2008, 10:41 PM

???

Zhirininovsky is not my President and chances are will never be one.

As for Mccain, I sure do hope he will become yours, its like watching a train wreck ;)

Yea your real cheaky douche maybe this time Medvedev won't have quite so many journalists killed for speaking out against the government. Ya know like Papa Putin did.

Lokos

03-07-2008, 02:36 AM

Yea your real cheaky douche maybe this time Medvedev won't have quite so many journalists killed for speaking out against the government. Ya know like Papa Putin did.

Oh, ja? And when was this proven? Are we assuming guilt now? Go home and play with your toys.

Lokos

asch

03-07-2008, 03:11 AM

Yea your real cheaky douche maybe this time Medvedev won't have quite so many journalists killed for speaking out against the government. Ya know like Papa Putin did.
bookmark this. when you become adult, you can always take a laugh at stupid things you wrote in the past. ;)

Serjey

03-07-2008, 03:45 AM

Havoc345

03-07-2008, 10:46 AM

It will be funny watching end of US economy under McCain
But it will be interesting watching non-agressive US under Ron Paul...very unusual...
IMO Hillary or Obama wont win, one is woman, second - black

Nvmind it's not even worth it, Theres nothing I could say to convince the Russia Strong crew. BTW your totally wrong with your predictions for President.

CPL Trevoga

03-07-2008, 06:40 PM

Nvmind it's not even worth it, Theres nothing I could say to convince the Russia Strong crew.

You could present facts, instead you said this previously :

"Yea your real cheaky douche maybe this time Medvedev won't have quite so many journalists killed for speaking out against the government. Ya know like Papa Putin did."

First of all, try being little bit balanced. There is no link between Putin and deaths of any journalists, no whatsoever. Secondly, family dynasties, so far exist in African dictatorships and the US (Bush Sr. and G.W. 41st and 43rd presidents). Putin's PR people all American taught guys and they did an excellent job.

Havoc345

03-07-2008, 09:17 PM

Idk do these do anything for you ?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/europe/the-20-journalists-who-have-lost-their-lives-in-putins-russia-439783.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/08/AR2006100800358.html

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/10/as_democracy_di.html

But hey thats just Western Propaganda :roll:

Havoc345

03-07-2008, 09:19 PM

Or maybe even this more famous case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17332541/

asch

03-07-2008, 09:41 PM

oh fvck! man can use google! incredible!
on a side note you can see that all those links you provided is just a media articles. and guilt is something more than some ramblings, it must be proven.
so if some pravda.ru write that all americans is overweighted stupid jerks and some guy called Bush is just a bloodthirsty maniac who torturing innocent bystanders in some place called Gitmo, you expect me to believe this sort of shyte?

Lokos

03-08-2008, 02:11 AM

But hey thats just Western Propaganda

You're right. Western propaganda is inconceivable. There's no hostility to Putin in the West. It's just in the imagination of the Russians.

As for your articles, can you point to a shred of proof in any of them?

Lokos

intelligenzija

03-08-2008, 05:22 AM

there is an interesting article in the eXile about this issue:

http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=17074&IBLOCK_ID=35

I looked at the statistics of journalists killings provided by the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an NGO based in New York, following an online discussion I read about in a Russian LiveJournal forum. Something very strange quickly became evident to me: In Russia and other post-Soviet countries, journalists included in the CPJ’s database died all sorts of ways: from gunshots, terrorist bombs, heart attacks, in car accidents, suicides, etc. And yet in other countries almost all the reported journalist murders were a result of either direct assassinations (usually by gunshots), or else they were war-related or terrorism-related.

and so on

Breakfast in Vegas

03-08-2008, 07:34 AM

there is an interesting article in the eXile about this issue:

http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=17074&IBLOCK_ID=35

and so on
Quoting the Exile is like quoting the Sun or the Bild Zeitung.

asch

03-08-2008, 08:53 AM

Quoting the Exile is like quoting the Sun or the Bild Zeitung.

so it's perfectly in line with links from Independent or WashingtonPost above. ;)

intelligenzija

03-08-2008, 10:02 AM

Quoting the Exile is like quoting the Sun or the Bild Zeitung.

That's a lame and lazy comparison. I think you didn't even bother to read it.
I personally don't see the similarities between Bild and eXile.
While Bild tries to attract readers with totally exaggerated and unproven speculations, the eXile has a clear line of argument.

Plus this issue is not about actual facts but about how something is being portrayed, so even IF some facts in the eXile might be not true, it doesn't mean the whole idea is rubbish.

Havoc345

03-08-2008, 11:33 AM

I just think the Russia Strong won't admit that Russia does anything wrong at all.

Havoc345

03-08-2008, 11:36 AM

You're right. Western propaganda is inconceivable. There's no hostility to Putin in the West. It's just in the imagination of the Russians.

As for your articles, can you point to a shred of proof in any of them?

Lokos

I'm sorry I can't exactly give you the smoking gun but I would say the Cold War feelings are being harbored in Russia more than the West. I rarely hear of people or the media criticizing Russia. I mean the Russian election was barely covered in the West.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-08-2008, 12:56 PM

That's a lame and lazy comparison. I think you didn't even bother to read it.
I personally don't see the similarities between Bild and eXile.
While Bild tries to attract readers with totally exaggerated and unproven speculations, the eXile has a clear line of argument.

Plus this issue is not about actual facts but about how something is being portrayed, so even IF some facts in the eXile might be not true, it doesn't mean the whole idea is rubbish.
They aren't alike in their format or content, I never said they were. What I am saying is that they are equally worthless as a quoted source.

The eXile is a satirical rag that wishes it was "the Onion" po-russky, but is simply an outlet for pubescent humor and pseudo-editorials. Every once and a while they have a decent columnist, but these don't usually stay around for long.

The eXile has long outlived its usefullness. It was entertaining and even occasionally politically interesting until about 2002. It could find rebirth if it chose to attack the current Russian government with critical commentary, that would be brave journalism. I doubt they will do that with any resilience. If they did so, they wouldn't be around for long. I suppose they should just continue with their tried and true formula of sniping at easy targets with tired sarcasm and bitterness from the security of their self-imposed exile.

intelligenzija

03-08-2008, 12:58 PM

I'm sorry I can't exactly give you the smoking gun but I would say the Cold War feelings are being harbored in Russia more than the West. I rarely hear of people or the media criticizing Russia. I mean the Russian election was barely covered in the West.

That's just ridiculous. Do you have CNN or BBC at home? Do you know militaryphotos.net?

I'm sorry, but your statement ist just wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russophobia#View_of_Russia_in_Western_media

Some Russian and Western commentators express concern about too negative coverage of Russia in Western media (some Russians even describe it as "informational war") [52][53][54]. In April 2007 David Johnson, founder of the Johnson's Russia List, said in interview to the Moscow News: "I am sympathetic to the view that these days Putin and Russia are perhaps getting too dark a portrayal in most Western media. Or at least that critical views need to be supplemented with other kinds of information and analysis. An openness to different views is still warranted." [55]

In 1995, years before Putin was elected to his first term, the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press reported: "coverage of Russia and its president, Boris Yeltsin, was decidedly negative, even though national polls continue to find the public feeling positive toward Russia and largely uncritical of Yeltsin." [56]

In February 2007 Russian creativity agency E-generator composed "rating of Russophobia" of Western media, using for the research articles concerning a single theme — Russia's chairmanship of G8, translated into Russian by InoSmi.Ru. The score was composed for each edition, negative values granted for negative assessments of Russia, and positive values representing positive ones. The top in the rating were Newsday (-43, U.S.), The Financial Times (-34, Great Britain), The Wall Street Journal (-34, U.S.), Le Monde (-30, France), while editions on the opposite side of the rating were Toronto Star (+27, Canada) and The Conservative Voice (+26, U.S.) [57]

Various post-Soviet ehtnic-based organized crime groups such as Armenian, Chechen, Belorussian, Kazakh are often referred to as "Russian Mafia" in Western media.

Herman the II

03-08-2008, 01:09 PM

Putin says Medvedev not easier for West to deal with

Russia's outgoing president Vladimir Putin said Saturday his successor, president-elect Dmitry Medvedev will defend Russia's interests as actively as he did.

"I do not think our partners will find is easier to deal with him [Medvedev]. He is a true patriot, and will defend Russia's interests on the international arena very energetically," Putin told journalists after a meeting with German Chancellor Angela Merkel.

full story:
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080308/100981132.html

At least Putin admits that he can be a pain in the *** sometimes.:)
Hopefully the successful economic cooperation between Russia and Germany can continue and grow with Medvedev.

intelligenzija

03-08-2008, 01:11 PM

The eXile has long outlived its usefullness. It was entertaining and even occasionally politically interesting until about 2002. It could find rebirth if it chose to attack the current Russian government with critical commentary, that would be brave journalism. I doubt they will do that with any resilience. If they did so, they wouldn't be around for long. I suppose they should just continue with their tried and true formula of sniping at easy targets with tired sarcasm and bitterness from the security of their self-imposed exile.

So are you claiming they are not critical against the Russian government??

Then please explain how they can write articles like this one:

http://exile.ru/blog/detail.php?BLOG_ID=17285&phrase_id=18538

holyfetzer

03-08-2008, 01:36 PM

http://exile.ru/blog/detail.php?BLOG_ID=17285&phrase_id=18538

Oh no, that means no Russians on mp.net anymore? :-( <-joke

I think Putin also chose Medvedev to do some change in foreign policy.
There is no broad anti-Russian feeling in Western Europe anymore and it wouldn't be very clever to risk this. Putin knows that and Medvedev knows that even better. In the end the results will form the verdict.

Putin has made quite a number of mistakes which does not mean he is not willing to correct them. So Medvedev may be the right answer. It would be a shame to fall back in time.

Kak

03-08-2008, 02:37 PM

I'm sorry I can't exactly give you the smoking gun but I would say the Cold War feelings are being harbored in Russia more than the West. I rarely hear of people or the media criticizing Russia. I mean the Russian election was barely covered in the West.
Um, from your location I assume you live in America, correct? If that's the case, do you like..never watch news or TV in general, or watch movies / play video games with Russia or Russians in them, or read news websites, or hear people talking about Russia, or read the threads on these forums?

Here's what I said in another thread to someone who claimed something similar:

"I'd strongly disagree. I am a very social person and I talk to a lot of people, and Russia often comes up, particularly since Russia is one of my greatest interests. Out of everyone I have ever talked to about anything concerning Russia (which is surprisingly a TON) both in real life and online, very very few of them have a positive view of Russia. I certainly do feel that it is "taught" (not necessarily just in terms of being taught in school, but mostly through the media and the opinions of older people who lived through the Cold War) that Russia is backwards, sinister, weak, poor, and inferior."

What I think is probably the case here is that you just think that all the negative things said about Russia, Russians, their history, and anything they make or use (their "crappy inferior deathtrap" military equipment is a subject that often comes up here) is not a negative portrayal, it's just simply the truth.

Afro-European

03-08-2008, 04:51 PM

Putin has made quite a number of mistakes which does not mean he is not willing to correct them. So Medvedev may be the right answer. It would be a shame to fall back in time.[/quote]

Coud you tell me number of mistakes which Putin has made?

Don't come up with missile shield,Kosovo "independance",Nato expansion eastwards which he adamently opposed.And rightly so.

intelligenzija

03-08-2008, 05:00 PM

Putin has made quite a number of mistakes which does not mean he is not willing to correct them. So Medvedev may be the right answer. It would be a shame to fall back in time.

Coud you tell me number of mistakes which Putin has made?

Don't come up with missile shield,Kosovo "independance",Nato expansion eastwards which he adamently opposed.And rightly so.[/QUOTE]

Kursk disaster, poor PR in the beginning , etc..

holyfetzer

03-08-2008, 05:48 PM

Coud you tell me number of mistakes which Putin has made?

I am referring to the present situation concerning Ukraine and Georgia.
Putin is blaming NATO to step up to its borders. But why do countries like Ukraine and Georgia actively want to join NATO? They are not forced to do so but even public (non-russian) opinion in these countries strongly support it.
It is because they feel threatened by its big neighbour. Threats like "we will our ICBMs be aimed at Ukraine" and so on do not improve the situation at all. It was his policy which drove them in the hands of the NATO. Putin did not good in establishing good relations to its neigbours and the current complaining is something Putin is to be blamed hisself in my opinion.
In the past weeks and months he actually did some steps to improve relations but now it will be a hard way.

Concerning Kosovo I understand that Russia is against Kosovo's independency. I do not support what has been created there. But Russia did nothing before to develop a proper solution for this problem. Only the EU tried seriously but failed which I think was partly also Russia's fault which was just concerned about Serbia's demands instead of dealing with the situation as a whole.

There are a lot of things I could count up (Polonium, gas conflict and so on) but the roots of these problems are similar.

Putin is not a bad president, he did really good especially in interior and ecoomic issues.
But he also failed on some topics, mostly referring to his foreign policy. It is my opinion. Hope that Medvedev will learn from previous mistakes and will make some things better.

intelligenzija

03-08-2008, 06:04 PM

I am referring to the present situation concerning Ukraine and Georgia.
Putin is blaming NATO to step up to its borders. But why do countries like Ukraine and Georgia actively want to join NATO? They are not forced to do so but even public (non-russian) opinion in these countries strongly support it.
It is because they feel threatened by its big neighbour. Threats like "we will our ICBMs be aimed at Ukraine" and so on do not improve the situation at all. It was his policy which drove them in the hands of the NATO. Putin did not good in establishing good relations to its neigbours and the current complaining is something Putin is to be blamed hisself in my opinion.
In the past weeks and months he actually did some steps to improve relations but now it will be a hard way.

There are a lot of things I could count up (Polonium, gas conflict and so on) but the roots of these problems are similar.

Putin is not a bad president, he did really good especially in interior and ecoomic issues.
But he also failed on some topics, mostly referring to his foreign policy.

You can't be serious.

He said the ICBMs will aim at NATO bases in Ukraine AFTER NATO was talking about inviting Ukraine. Those are REactions to NATO expanses. I don't understand why that is so surprising.

Public Opinion about NATO membership in Ukraine? Have a closer look again.
Georgia is another story.

The gas conflict? The western media blamed Putin for that which is wrong.
Why should Gazprom deliver natural gas when Ukraine and (Belarus which is a close ally btw) don't want to pay??

And the polonium murder claims of the Britains are not proven.

SkyUS

03-08-2008, 06:08 PM

@ holyfetzer (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=15428)

Point out one state which has not been afraid of encirclement.

@ intelligenzija

You are correct sir.

holyfetzer

03-08-2008, 06:43 PM

You can't be serious.

He said the ICBMs will aim at NATO bases in Ukraine AFTER NATO was talking about inviting Ukraine. Those are REactions to NATO expanses. I don't understand why that is so surprising.

Public Opinion about NATO membership in Ukraine? Have a closer look again.
Georgia is another story.

The gas conflict? The western media blamed Putin for that which is wrong.
Why should Gazprom deliver natural gas when Ukraine and (Belarus which is a close ally btw) don't want to pay??

And the polonium murder claims of the Britains are not proven.

Exactly that is the point. They say they aim their missile at Ukraine when they join NATO. This aggresive way of dealing with foreign issues sadly has become very common in Russian politics. It is not very elegant to deal so unpolitely with a country like Ukraine which undoubtly is very deeply connected to Russia by people and culture.
The result is fear and the want of protection. The NATO has not to do very much to gain access to Russia's neighbouring countries. They come from themselves. And that I think was the biggest mistake Putin made.

The gas conflict cannot be reduced to Belarus and Ukraine. Lately one gas supplier stopped deliveries to Germany for a whole month because they said to be unconfident with the price. If pricing is a problem than you can negotiate about it. But they did it without warning. That is no way of dealing with customers. It was just a punishment for the appreciation of Kosovo on the same day. If you cannot divide politics from business in using gas as a weapon than you will not be seen as a reliable partner in future.

I do not want to talk much about the Polonium case. But there is no doubt that there is a connection to Russian circles (not neccessarily circles that are near to Putin). I also would be some kind of pissed when russian-origined polonium worth 20 millions bucks would appear in my country.

Putin sometime lacked ellegance and sustainability in his policies. Nevertheless I am quite sure that the right way for the good of Russia will be chosen in future.

asch

03-08-2008, 09:33 PM

I would say the Cold War feelings are being harbored in Russia more than the West.
it is very nice to have such an expert in our "feelings" here.
i wonder on which data such opinion is based?

Lokos

03-09-2008, 04:38 AM

I rarely hear of people or the media criticizing Russia. I mean the Russian election was barely covered in the West.

Sorry, for a second there I thought you were being serious.

Lokos

Havoc345

03-09-2008, 05:25 AM

Hey the only reason I even posted in this thread was because some Russian members were speaking about how great it will be when McCain is Prez. Due to the fact that they believe he is some senile old fool. So I started taking shots at Putin and they demand data and charts and graphs to backup my claims while they can claim Obama can't win because he's black and McCain is senile just by IDK looking straight up their ass.

intelligenzija

03-09-2008, 06:43 AM

Exactly that is the point. They say they aim their missile at Ukraine when they join NATO. This aggresive way of dealing with foreign issues sadly has become very common in Russian politics. It is not very elegant to deal so unpolitely with a country like Ukraine which undoubtly is very deeply connected to Russia by people and culture.
The result is fear and the want of protection. The NATO has not to do very much to gain access to Russia's neighbouring countries. They come from themselves. And that I think was the biggest mistake Putin made.

Putin sometime lacked ellegance and sustainability in his policies. Nevertheless I am quite sure that the right way for the good of Russia will be chosen in future.

OK, I agree somehow, threatening is not the answer, but what would you suggest to do, in case NATO announces to invite Ukraine? Not nice to piss off Russia aswell, the difference are rhetorics.

The gas conflict cannot be reduced to Belarus and Ukraine. Lately one gas supplier stopped deliveries to Germany for a whole month because they said to be unconfident with the price. If pricing is a problem than you can negotiate about it. But they did it without warning. That is no way of dealing with customers. It was just a punishment for the appreciation of Kosovo on the same day. If you cannot divide politics from business in using gas as a weapon than you will not be seen as a reliable partner in future.

Can you provide me a source for your information?
That Germany did not receive any or less gas was not Gasproms fault.
They rise the prices according to contracts. And Germany is a reliable customer. The problems were caused by UkrGasEnergo and others.

But yeah, this was bad PR for Putin since Europe suffered last time under the conflict and blamed him.

Herman the II

03-09-2008, 08:41 AM

Can you provide me a source for your information?
That Germany did not receive any or less gas was not Gasproms fault.
They rise the prices according to contracts. And Germany is a reliable customer. The problems were caused by UkrGasEnergo and others.

But yeah, this was bad PR for Putin since Europe suffered last time under the conflict and blamed him.

Remember the Lufthansa dispute? Russia banned Lufthansa Cargo from the Russian airspace in order to force Lufthansa to move their second-largest hub from Kazakhstan to Siberia.
Short summery:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,517288,00.html

Its not only about the Gas/Oil, Russia has made some suspicious moves lately that raise doubts in Germany that Russia can be a reliable partner. Putin gains little from such actions but destroys much of the trust that was formed in the past.
There are numerous events of such "sable rattling" that only meet incomprehension in Germany, hopefully Medvedev will be a bit more reasonable than Putin.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-09-2008, 08:51 AM

Remember the Lufthansa dispute? Russia banned Lufthansa Cargo from the Russian airspace in order to force Lufthansa to move their second-largest hub from Kazakhstan to Siberia.
Short summery:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,517288,00.html

Its not only about the Gas/Oil, Russia has made some suspicious moves lately that raise doubts in Germany that Russia can be a reliable partner. Putin gains little from such actions but destroys much of the trust that was formed in the past.
There are numerous events of such "sable rattling" that only meet incomprehension in Germany, hopefully Medvedev will be a bit more reasonable than Putin.
A lot of Putin's hardline anti-West rhetoric was during the runup to the presidential election and intended mostly for internal consumption. Russian voters like to hear the "we are the best and we will show the west" slogans, just as US voters lap up much of the idiotic rhetoric American politicians use during their election campaigns and then conveniently forget after the election is over.

Let's hope that things return to normal, in general relations between Germany and Russia are good on a political and economic level, even if things did "cool" during the last year of Putin's presidency.

intelligenzija

03-09-2008, 08:58 AM

That's not a good move indeed.

But we cannot say that was Putin's idea or something. I think we are talking about Putin's mistakes.

Herman the II

03-09-2008, 09:04 AM

That's not a good move indeed.

But we cannot say that was Putin's idea or something. I think we are talking about Putin's mistakes.

The Lufthansa dispute?
Off course I don't know if it was Putin's "idea", but he is the President so he is the one to blame.
I don't think that such far-ranging decisions/actions can be made in Russia without the blessing of the almighty President.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-09-2008, 09:04 AM

That's not a good move indeed.

But we cannot say that was Putin's idea or something. I think we are talking about Putin's mistakes.
True enough, Putin isn't personally responsible for absolutely everything a Russian company or ministry does. Considering the potential for error in a position like his, he made remarkably few mistakes, at least from our current perspective. With time, it will be more apparent what was positive or negative about his term in office. His future role as PM hasn't been clearly defined yet either, we certainly haven't heard the last of him... :)

holyfetzer

03-09-2008, 09:47 AM

That's not a good move indeed.

But we cannot say that was Putin's idea or something.

But all these things happened with his silent approval.
He will loose a lot of sympathy in Germany if this continues.
I see no gain in this behaviour. But he also has proven that
he can do it better. Now after the elections it may be the right time.

Herman the II

03-09-2008, 10:26 AM

But all these things happened with his silent approval.
He will loose a lot of sympathy in Germany if this continues.
I see no gain in this behaviour. But he also has proven that
he can do it better. Now after the elections it may be the right time.

Silent approval? I would even go further, not only the Russian president has a very strong position constitutional wise and holds all strings in the end but the dispute went on for three month.
The German chancellor intervened several times, so its highly unlikely that Putin wasn't aware of whats going on and didn't support the ban and the political agenda behind it.

Brute

03-09-2008, 07:57 PM

The eXile has long outlived its usefulness. It was entertaining and even occasionally politically interesting until about 2002. It could find rebirth if it chose to attack the current Russian government with critical commentary, that would be brave journalism. I doubt they will do that with any resilience. If they did so, they wouldn't be around for long. I suppose they should just continue with their tried and true formula of sniping at easy targets with tired sarcasm and bitterness from the security of their self-imposed exile.

They attack (http://www.exile.ru/authors/detail.php?ID=2311&phrase_id=473) the Russian government (they do (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=13721&IBLOCK_ID=35&PAGE=1) , and pretty often (http://www.exile.ru/blog/detail.php?BLOG_ID=13027)) and also, satirically expose (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=17180&IBLOCK_ID=35)the West for its frequent double standards (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=14536&IBLOCK_ID=35&PAGE=1) and hypocrisy towards Russia and in general (like in Kosovo for instance). How is this "usefulness outlived" for them? You must not have been reading them that much to come to such conclusions. You can easily find more examples if you use 'Search Site' feature in google toolbar and search for terms: "other Russia" "Kremlin", "Putin" etc.
I read them frequently and I find that they're pretty much right on the mark when it comes Russia's internal and Russia-West affairs. Mark Ames is brilliant and I love reading his articles at Exile as well as watching his program on Russia Today.

Brute

03-09-2008, 07:59 PM

A lot of Putin's hardline anti-West rhetoric was during the runup to the presidential election and intended mostly for internal consumption.

Was his Munich speech intended for internal consumption, too, or what?

Sergei

03-10-2008, 02:07 AM

Mc Cain isnt a drunk who starts fist fights.

Oh yeah, he sees KGB agents under his bed. :)

Sergei

03-10-2008, 02:10 AM

Nvmind it's not even worth it, Theres nothing I could say to convince the Russia Strong crew. BTW your totally wrong with your predictions for President.

You are just 17 and you already know the word "Russia Strong crew"?
Damn you learn fast from the old timers. But other than that you are ignorant as most people coming from Clintonia.
Here, have a cake from me.

Sergei

03-10-2008, 02:15 AM

I am referring to the present situation concerning Ukraine and Georgia.
Putin is blaming NATO to step up to its borders. But why do countries like Ukraine and Georgia actively want to join NATO?

A correction. Not Ukraine and Georgia, but pro-western political elites, carefully injected into these countries using "orange revolutions".
You do know that USchenko's wife is a former US State department manager, right?

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 03:08 AM

They attack (http://www.exile.ru/authors/detail.php?ID=2311&phrase_id=473) the Russian government (they do (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=13721&IBLOCK_ID=35&PAGE=1) , and pretty often (http://www.exile.ru/blog/detail.php?BLOG_ID=13027)) and also, satirically expose (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=17180&IBLOCK_ID=35)the West for its frequent double standards (http://www.exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=14536&IBLOCK_ID=35&PAGE=1) and hypocrisy towards Russia and in general (like in Kosovo for instance). How is this "usefulness outlived" for them? You must not have been reading them that much to come to such conclusions. You can easily find more examples if you use 'Search Site' feature in google toolbar and search for terms: "other Russia" "Kremlin", "Putin" etc.
I read them frequently and I find that they're pretty much right on the mark when it comes Russia's internal and Russia-West affairs. Mark Ames is brilliant and I love reading his articles at Exile as well as watching his program on Russia Today.
I think I read them too much, their satire and humour seemed to be set on "repeat" and their jokes tired and worn.

Ames is a smart guy for sure even if he tends to stray from the focus of his editorials in long drawn-out tangents and run-on sentences. I met him once at a party. He was wearing a "the Walking Dead" Marines t-shirt, so he can't be half bad. http://www.thewalkingdead.org/ (http://www.thewalkingdead.org/)

But point taken, I'll read their political commentary with more focus and see if I reach different conclusions than before. Their satirical efforts, which is really the majority of every issue, need a complete overhaul however.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 03:10 AM

Was his Munich speech intended for internal consumption, too, or what?
Partially yes, his speeches abroad are observed with particular fervor at home.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 03:39 AM

A correction. Not Ukraine and Georgia, but pro-western political elites, carefully injected into these countries using "orange revolutions".
You do know that USchenko's wife is a former US State department manager, right?
What do you think the future of Ukraine holds?

a) Being a thorn in Russia's side as a NATO member, nursing the pipe dream of becoming an EU member?

b) Being a maltreated stepchild of Russia, never an equal partner and kept on a short leash?

c) Split into two with the "Ukrainian" west siding with Europe and the "Russian" east annexed by Russia?

d) None of the above.

AlexMartin2

03-10-2008, 03:52 AM

What do you think the future of Ukraine holds?

Being a thorn in Russia's side as a NATO member?

After recent decision of referendum for Ukraine NATO membership, I think its a zero chance for entry. But its only now. After 5 years, things in Ukraine could be different. Modern means for state propaganda can change people minds very fast.

Being a maltreated stepchild of Russia?

Why do you think that Ukraine is a maltreated stepchild of Russia? Do you know its history?

Split into two with the "Ukrainian" west siding with Europe and the "Russian" east annexed by Russia?

I believe that a lot of people in the east want it. And Crimea also. Personally I think its good idea, to annex east Ukraine and join it to Russia.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 04:04 AM

Why do you think that Ukraine is a maltreated stepchild of Russia? Do you know its history?

I am refering to Ukraine's future in their relations to Russia, which is omni-powerful in comparison to Ukraine. It's a provocative question... what will that relationship be like? I'm asking the Ukrainian and Russian experts here and would like to hear their opinion.

Speaking with Ukrainians, I get very mixed signals.... as if they really don't know what they want. On the one hand their historical blood ties are obviously with Russia and the Slavic world, on the other hand they resent the level of influence Russians are taking on them and their economic and political affairs. There is a genuine split and just like Georgia, they are in danger of being a political plaything for the west and Russia. My contacts are almost all business contacts, and there is genuine fear that they will be totally dominated by Russia, who has much more capital to play with.

holyfetzer

03-10-2008, 04:32 AM

Why do you think that Ukraine is a maltreated stepchild of Russia? Do you know its history?

I believe that a lot of people in the east want it. And Crimea also. Personally I think its good idea, to annex east Ukraine and join it to Russia.

This is exactly why neighbouring countries call out for NATO. It is not just the bad NATO sneaking into Russia's backyard. It is more a result of a failed policy of Russia dealing with its neighbours. Spreading fears of annexion is no better than the Kosovo incident.
If Putin would have chosen the way of partnership instead of treating Ukraine, Georgia and company like pets it never would have come that far.
These people do have their own proud you cannot surpress that easily.

AlexMartin2

03-10-2008, 04:52 AM

Well, if Ukraine's leader will be Uschenko, or similar, there is no bright future for Rus-Ukr relations.

Last 8 years foreign politics directed to former USSR republics was simple: You are with us, or against us. Foresee you comments about it, I want to add, that United States had almost identical foreign politics. Its not russian invention. And Uschenko perfectly knew about such politics, and choose to be "without us". He knew the consequences, i.e. not cheap gas, no investments and so on.
And I think he is directly responsible for all problems that Ukraine had now.

And "with us" doesnt mean total domination. Look at Kazahstan. They have very good relations with Russia, and they also had good relations with US. Well, why not?
Their economy is grow faster that russian one. They cant be in EU, they dont want to be in NATO, so they simply working. And as a result, they didnt have such ridiculous situation with president and prime-minister and parliament as in Ukraine.

holyfetzer

03-10-2008, 04:59 AM

Last 8 years foreign politics directed to former USSR republics was simple: You are with us, or against us. Foresee you comments about it, I want to add, that United States had almost identical foreign politics. Its not russian invention.

That is absolutely right but no excuse to do it better. Especially concerning that Ukraine is something lika a "brother country" to Russia. But they want to be treated with respect. That is why the USA is more successful.

AlexMartin2

03-10-2008, 05:03 AM

This is exactly why neighbouring countries call out for NATO. It is not just the bad NATO sneaking into Russia's backyard. It is more a result of a failed policy of Russia dealing with its neighbours. Spreading fears of annexion is no better than the Kosovo incident.
If Putin would have chosen the way of partnership instead of treating Ukraine, Georgia and company like pets it never would have come that far.
These people do have their own proud you cannot surpress that easily.

What a BS. A lot of people already wrote there that 80 or 90% of Ukrainians dont want to be in NATO. And Georgia is very different matter. And its only 2 of 11 former republics. (There were 15 republics total, including Baltic)

IMO, russian policy with its neighbours is very good. Because last 15 year shown that they all want to has preferences from Russia, cheap oil and gas, and in return they hold fck behind their back.

About annexion. You confuse my personal opinion with state politics. Do you have bad reading skills? And I wrote that people WANT to be with Russia. Its their right, yes?

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 05:18 AM

What a BS. A lot of people already wrote there that 80 or 90% of Ukrainians dont want to be in NATO. And Georgia is very different matter. And its only 2 of 11 former republics. (There were 15 republics total, including Baltic)

IMO, russian policy with its neighbours is very good. Because last 15 year shown that they all want to has preferences from Russia, cheap oil and gas, and in return they hold fck behind their back.

About annexion. You confuse my personal opinion with state politics. Do you have bad reading skills? And I wrote that people WANT to be with Russia. Its their right, yes?
Cheap oil and gas is one thing they won't be getting. Oil and gas prices are planned to be raised to European levels, even for Russians. Greed knows no boundaries... :)

Georgia is going to go it's own route IMO, with all the bad blood between Georgia and Russia I don't foresee Georgia making any efforts to cuddle up to Russia and Russia is certainly not going to back down on Georgia. Georgia is going to get enough support from the West to stay afloat.

Popular sentiment in Ukraine does side with Russia (again particularly in the east), but do you think (or even better do Ukrainians think) this will be best for Ukraine? What if Russia under Medvedev takes an isolationist course? Russia can certainly live off of their natural resource revenues, but Ukraine would be almost 100% dependent on Russia at that point and run risk of stagnating in their development ala Belarus.

Just as Ukraine doesn't want to sever their ties with Russia, they certainly can't be interested in failing to develop at a similar pace socially with the rest of Eastern Europe.

holyfetzer

03-10-2008, 05:19 AM

And I wrote that people WANT to be with Russia. Its their right, yes?

Kosovo Albanians also did want to be seperated from Serbia. We both know that this can't be the right way.

The difference between US and Russia's policy is that the USA comes and promises investments, protection with military bases, support in building infrastructure and so gain their access.
Unlike them Russia comes and threatens to aim their nuclear weapons, shorten their supplies, support independence movements an so on.
The motives are the same but the handling is way different.
Maybe that is the key that Russia should think about. And if a mjaority of people did not support the NATO ambitions they wouldn't have voted for Sakashvilli and company.

Xaito

03-10-2008, 05:41 AM

Popular sentiment in Ukraine does side with Russia (again particularly in the east), but do you think (or even better do Ukrainians think) this will be best for Ukraine? What if Russia under Medvedev takes an isolationist course? Russia can certainly live off of their natural resource revenues, but Ukraine would be almost 100% dependent on Russia at that point and run risk of stagnating in their development ala Belarus.

Just as Ukraine doesn't want to sever their ties with Russia, they certainly can't be interested in failing to develop at a similar pace socially with the rest of Eastern Europe.

why do you think that ties with Russia mean stagnation of develpment etc.
Does Russia demand anything more then not joining NATO and a different attitude in the relationship?
The Ukrainian governemt worked actively on severing the ties to Russia - was that necessary? Or even better question - did Ukrainians really want that?

The difference between US and Russia's policy is that the USA comes and promises investments, protection with military bases, support in building infrastructure and so gain their access.
Unlike them Russia comes and threatens to aim their nuclear weapons, shorten their supplies, support independence movements an so on.
The difference is the attitude of Ukraine towards the US and Russia - nothing more nothing less.
If Russia would install a pro Russian government in Canada and it started to do things similar to Ukraine you can guess what the reaction of the US would be. Or look at Venezuela.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 06:01 AM

why do you think that ties with Russia mean stagnation of develpment etc.
Does Russia demand anything more then not joining NATO and a different attitude in the relationship?
The Ukrainian governemt worked actively on severing the ties to Russia - was that necessary? Or even better question - did Ukrainians really want that?

In terms of social development, most notably improving relations with Europe and increasing economic ties globally with the corresponding international investments, moving away from Europe and concentrating almost entirely on Russia would mean stagnation IMO. Visa restrictions re-imposed, an uncertain investment climate where nationalization of investments is always a risk, political and media restrictions etc... this is all backwards movement and not forward. Perhaps it serves Russia, but whether or not it serves Ukraine middle- to long-term is questionable.

As for whether or not Ukrainians wanted the ties to be severed, during the Orange revolution many certainly spoke in such a tone. I was in Kiev at the time and curiously enough, together with a friend of mine we were seemingly the only ones who didn't believe in Yuschenko's vision. We had a much more realistic view of what was coming than most of the orange-clad Ukrainians we spoke to. Yanukovich supporters bussed in from the industrial east were forced out of the city center. I was accosted on more than one occasion and forcefully asked who I supported, access to public buildings was often only for Yushenko supporters. I got the impression that many were relishing moving away from Russia and their dominance and hoping to assert themselves as a European Ukraine. This was of course hopelessly naive in retrospect. The tone and opinions of Ukrainians have since changed, particularly since it seems a forlorn hope that they will be accepted in the EU anytime soon and Russia seems well on the way to reasserting itself as a world power.

Xaito

03-10-2008, 06:19 AM

In terms of social development, most notably improving relations with Europe and increasing economic ties globally with the corresponding international investments, moving away from Europe and concentrating almost entirely on Russia would mean stagnation IMO. Visa restrictions re-imposed, an uncertain investment climate where nationalization of investments is always a risk, political and media restrictions etc... this is all backwards movement and not forward. Perhaps it serves Russia, but whether or not it serves Ukraine middle- to long-term is questionable.

I still don't think that improving relations with Europe is equal to severing the ties with Russia or that it would be necessary to hurt the relationship with Russia.
Russia itself has a relationship with Europe - I don't think they'd demand anything different from Ukraine.

As for whether or not Ukrainians wanted the ties to be severed, during the Orange revolution many certainly spoke in such a tone.
Did the demonstrating people speak for all of Ukraine - or even a majority? I doubt it.
Imo the Yuschenko followers were just better organized at that time - no doubt thanks to US funding and other support.
And western media was more then happy to quickly show a "orange revolution".

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 06:40 AM

I still don't think that improving relations with Europe is equal to severing the ties with Russia or that it would be necessary to hurt the relationship with Russia.
Russia itself has a relationship with Europe - I don't think they'd demand anything different from Ukraine.

Did the demonstrating people speak for all of Ukraine - or even a majority? I doubt it.
Imo the Yuschenko followers were just better organized at that time - no doubt thanks to US funding and other support.
And western media was more then happy to quickly show a "orange revolution".
The question is to which extent will Russia accept improving relations with Europe from it's Ukrainian partner before "disciplining" it with economic and political moves? Obviously joining a military alliance like NATO is an extreme example, however other political ties with the West could be met with equal disdain. Since Russia views Ukraine as within its sphere of influence they are not going to be happy with any ties Ukraine might have to the West that they feel will somehow undermine this influence.

Russia does have a relationship with Europe, one that has been deteriorating in the last 2 years.

As for support for Yushenko during the Orange revolution, within Kiev it was seemingly dominant. I don't know what was going on in Ukrainian heads, however Kiev was totally in Orange control.

intelligenzija

03-10-2008, 06:42 AM

I'm amazed by this civilized debate :D

In my opinion Ukraine has clearly set her direction and Russia can't do anything about it at the moment. I don't believe it was Russias fault, rather Ukraine's interests and hope for prosperity.
I know that many (mostly Russian speaking)people in Ukraine are not satisfied with the current situation and there are mixed feelings about the "nationalization" of Ukraine, like banning Russian speaking films from the cinema etc.
I believe if Ukraine's politicians (Yuchenko and Timoshenka) would play clever they can have a policy which doesn't piss of Russia and still heads Western Europe.

Edit:

I don't think the term influencial sphere is still right. Soon there won't be any Russian Navy bases in Ukraine anymore and actually Ukraine can do what it wants to do. But why das a vacuum then has to be filled with something (NATO)?

Xaito

03-10-2008, 06:50 AM

Russia does have a relationship with Europe, one that has been deteriorating in the last 2 years.

you probably mean the general mood of the relationship - what about the business relationship?

As for support for Yushenko during the Orange revolution, within Kiev it was seemingly dominant. I don't know what was going on in Ukrainian heads, however Kiev was totally in Orange control.
Like I said - I think its just better organization - the supporters of yanukovich were pushed out of the city as you said - many probably stayed at home as its not worth risking beeing hurt by a fanatic mob. ;)

AlexMartin2

03-10-2008, 07:37 AM

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 07:54 AM

I dont understand, why people always think than improving ties with west means severing ties with Russia? Its absolutly wrong. Look at Kazahstan.
And what Ukraine leader did in past 2 years? He's severed all good relationship with Russia, but is he improved ties with the West? I mean western Europe, not only USA. Not at all. Maybe he's "improved" ties with USA, which means he is doing what US wants, but he is did something good for his own country? Instead of creating jobs, building factories, there are only 2 years of complete chaos in the goverment.

Its well-known that Russia is actively against NATO membership for any of former USSR republics. Its only choice that every republic must made to have good relationship with Russia. And I believe it completly fair. Everyone know it.
So, why such ruckus, when Russia dont want to support Ukraine?
Kasachstan may be an excellent example of how things can work, they are also an excellent example of having vast economic resources can improve your bargaining position.

As for improving relations with the West meaning severing ties with Russia, if anything this movement will come from Russia not from Ukraine or the West.

That is one of the fundamental questions. Being a NATO member or having NATO troops on Ukrainian soil is obviously too much for Russian sensibilities to handle (and perhaps understandably so), but where does "improving relations with the West" end and "severing ties from Russia" begin? At which point does Russia object and take measures to stop this?

Business relations haven't particularly suffered from a German perspective, as Russia doesn't have a lot of choice in choosing it's economic partners in those fields where Germany is strong. What is noticeable is a difference in tone and occasionally a difference in personal relationships. Friendships aren't affected as generally speaking one can see through politics and realize they are just that, politics. However in many ways the "love affair" that existed at the beginning of the century and particularly under Schroeder/Putin has cooled, demonstrated for example in the recent Lufthansa cargo affair and the gas scandals, whether justified or not.

Afro-European

03-10-2008, 08:39 AM

Breakfast in Vegas

03-10-2008, 10:21 AM

Putin: West to have it no easier under Medvedev
By Denis Dyomkin
March 8, 2008
NOVO-OGARYOVO, Russia (*******) - Russian President Vladimir Putin warned the West on Saturday that it would have it no easier under
his successor Dmitry Medvedev, who will actively defend Russian interests on the world stage.

Speaking after talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Putin said he had the feeling some world leaders were waiting for his presidency to
end as they found it uncomfortable to work with a former KGB spy.

But Putin said Medvedev, who was elected president in the March 2 election, was a Russian patriot who would defend the country's interests.
"I do not think our partners will have it easier with him," Putin told reporters at a joint news briefing with Merkel, who is on the first visit
by a foreign leader since Medvedev was elected Russian president.
Merkel said she saw Medvedev as her "immediate partner in dialogue" ahead of the Group of Eight's meeting in Japan later this year.
Medvedev will host Merkel separately at a later meeting.

Merkel was expected to voice concern about the fairness of the vote Medvedev won and assess the prospects for any shift in policy under the
incoming head of state, who will be sworn in as president in May.

International observers and opposition groups have criticized the March election as unfair. Putin says the election was held in strict
accordance with the Russian constitution.

The relationship between Medvedev and Merkel, a physicist from the former East Germany who speaks Russian, is likely to play a key role in
relations between the two countries and with the European Union.
Merkel, who has in the past scolded Putin over human rights, has also sought to boost trade with Russia's booming economy and to mediate between Moscow, Washington and Russia's EU partners.

Germany is by far Russia's biggest single trading partner, with a record $52.8 billion in bilateral trade in 2007. German firms put $3.4 billion into
Russia last year and have key investments in Russia's energy sector.
Ruhrgas has a 6 percent stake in Russia's gas giant Gazprom and Russo-German pipeline group Nord Stream is building a multi-billion dollar
sub-sea gas pipeline from Russia to Western Europe.

There is hope in Berlin that Medvedev's election may herald a shift towards a more constructive Russia after clashes with Putin over Kosovo's independence and U.S. plans to put a missile shield in central Europe.

"There's hope the new start will mean a move away from some of the tough tones, which might have been due to election campaigning," Gernot Erler, Germany's deputy foreign minister, told ******* in an interview this week.

Merkel has been more critical of Putin's Russia than her predecessor Gerhard Schroeder, but is keenly aware of Germany's dependence on Russian energy and Moscow's role in international disputes like Iran.
(Additional reporting by Kerstin Gehmlich and Noah Barkin)

Xaito

03-10-2008, 01:31 PM

As for improving relations with the West meaning severing ties with Russia, if anything this movement will come from Russia not from Ukraine or the West.

I sometimes wonder why there's no US anti missile shield in Ukraine yet ;)
Ukraine tries hard to sever ties with Russia, including - which is imo very sad - the cultural ties.
Imo what Russia does is just reacting.
Especially in the extreme case of NATO membership which is apart from the "we don't like you anymore" attitude a question of security - Russia can't possibly not react to that - and - again, in my opinion- thats exactly what Ukraine wants - a Russian reaction to further ecalate the conflict and make Russia look like the bad guy at the same time.

Herrmannek

03-10-2008, 01:42 PM

in 6 months all Russians on the forum and elsewhere in the world will swear for their new president... :)

Sergei

03-10-2008, 02:00 PM

What do you think the future of Ukraine holds?

a) Being a thorn in Russia's side as a NATO member, nursing the pipe dream of becoming an EU member?

b) Being a maltreated stepchild of Russia, never an equal partner and kept on a short leash?

c) Split into two with the "Ukrainian" west siding with Europe and the "Russian" east annexed by Russia?

d) None of the above.

For the failed and corrupt state like Ukraine my pick would be point c). But not split into two but rather three parts. Western Ukraine is very different from the rest of Ukraine - they should go back to Poland.
Central Ukraine is more a thing of its own with Kiev in the middle. And then, there are eastern parts taken by communist politicos from Russia proper to create an artificial republic "Ukraina".

But the current "leadership" which is not recognised by half of the country is steering towards point a).

Let's see where it ends up, but I hate to sound a prophet and say that Ukraine is the last piece fo USSR that is well past 17 years of supposed disentegration.

Sergei

03-10-2008, 02:13 PM

Kosovo Albanians also did want to be seperated from Serbia. We both know that this can't be the right way.

The difference between US and Russia's policy is that the USA comes and promises investments, protection with military bases, support in building infrastructure and so gain their access.
Unlike them Russia comes and threatens to aim their nuclear weapons, shorten their supplies, support independence movements an so on.
The motives are the same but the handling is way different.
Maybe that is the key that Russia should think about. And if a mjaority of people did not support the NATO ambitions they wouldn't have voted for Sakashvilli and company.

Man, you are wrong on so many fronts and Iraqi and Afgani insurgents are just proving how wrong you are.
USA bombed three countries in the stretch of last 9 years - this is not threatening - this is open hostility and war on people and countries who don't succumb to one's wishes.
When you start thinking more about your own european interests and stop cheerleading for your "atlantic friend", maybe then you will be entitled to giving russians and Russia a lecture on what Russia should do and how Russia should act.

Sergei

03-10-2008, 02:20 PM

I sometimes wonder why there's no US anti missile shield in Ukraine yet ;)
Ukraine tries hard to sever ties with Russia, including - which is imo very sad - the cultural ties.
Imo what Russia does is just reacting.
Especially in the extreme case of NATO membership which is apart from the "we don't like you anymore" attitude a question of security - Russia can't possibly not react to that - and - again, in my opinion- thats exactly what Ukraine wants - a Russian reaction to further ecalate the conflict and make Russia look like the bad guy at the same time.

Ukrainians don't want escalation. USchenko is on US payroll and has to work hard to pay off what he has promised - dragging Ukraine into NATO.
Since it is a hot topic in Ukraine today, he didn't succeed in quickly doing it under the carpet, but his followers, feeding off different western grants will not leave the attempts to perform the same.

Right now the public opinion is like 70% against NATO but public opinion only works when it suits the politicians whims. Right now it doesn't.
Plus USchenko has to defend his corrupt family business with Rosukrenergo and the whole scheme of stealing russian gas going to EU. What you have is a failed prez with US ambassador as nanny and Vladimir Putin as a stick to beat some sober ideas into his head.

Xaito

03-10-2008, 03:07 PM

Ukrainians don't want escalation. USchenko is on US payroll and has to work hard to pay off what he has promised - dragging Ukraine into NATO.
yeah that's what I meant - I meant the Ukrainian government - as I said before I doubt if they really do what Ukrainians want.

Havoc345

03-10-2008, 06:07 PM

Man, you are wrong on so many fronts and Iraqi and Afgani insurgents are just proving how wrong you are.
USA bombed three countries in the stretch of last 9 years - this is not threatening - this is open hostility and war on people and countries who don't succumb to one's wishes.
When you start thinking more about your own european interests and stop cheerleading for your "atlantic friend", maybe then you will be entitled to giving russians and Russia a lecture on what Russia should do and how Russia should act.

Dude you seriously need to get out of your Soviet fantasy world. Oh man god forbid Ukraine wants to sever ties with Russia how dare they try to form their own national identity. As for you comment about the insurgents your a ****wad and a twit if that's what you believe is the situation with the "War on Terror".

holyfetzer

03-10-2008, 07:11 PM

For the failed and corrupt state like Ukraine my pick would be point c). But not split into two but rather three parts. Western Ukraine is very different from the rest of Ukraine - they should go back to Poland.
Central Ukraine is more a thing of its own with Kiev in the middle. And then, there are eastern parts taken by communist politicos from Russia proper to create an artificial republic "Ukraina".

But the current "leadership" which is not recognised by half of the country is steering towards point a).

Let's see where it ends up, but I hate to sound a prophet and say that Ukraine is the last piece fo USSR that is well past 17 years of supposed disentegration.

You can't be serious. That is absolutely far from reality. And the you're complaining about Kosovo? That would be far worse.
Russia should be happy that they do have a step in that door.
I can't hear anymore of this stupid "he is on that payroll"-talking anymore.
It's not as Russia wouldn't be capable of not having its own payrolls.
Ukraine is you neighbour country and not only ethinc Russians but also Ukrainian people are your cultural brothers.
If you had treat them like that you wouldn't have the problems now.
Don't reduce that current situation on single persons like Ushenko. There is a reason that
people like him are successful.

intelligenzija

03-10-2008, 07:22 PM

Sergei, aren't you Ukrainian yourself?

dimasorokine

03-10-2008, 09:03 PM

Dude you seriously need to get out of your Soviet fantasy world. Oh man god forbid Ukraine wants to sever ties with Russia how dare they try to form their own national identity. As for you comment about the insurgents your a ****wad and a twit if that's what you believe is the situation with the "War on Terror".

How much do you know about Ukraine, its history or its people? Countries like Ukraine and Russia having bad ties or possibly even being enemies is sad not because they are right beside eachother or were once part of the USSR. Its sad and upsetting because of the historic, cultural and ethnic ties the people of these two countries have with one another...

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine could easily be one country and almost no one would have to learn a new language or get used to a new culture or people - thats how simular we are, the biggest differences are political BS.

-Dima

Sergei

03-11-2008, 05:05 AM

You can't be serious. That is absolutely far from reality. And the you're complaining about Kosovo? That would be far worse.
Russia should be happy that they do have a step in that door.
I can't hear anymore of this stupid "he is on that payroll"-talking anymore.
It's not as Russia wouldn't be capable of not having its own payrolls.
Ukraine is you neighbour country and not only ethinc Russians but also Ukrainian people are your cultural brothers.
If you had treat them like that you wouldn't have the problems now.
Don't reduce that current situation on single persons like Ushenko. There is a reason that
people like him are successful.

Hey, I live in Ukraine ;) and I am damn aware on whose payroll is USchenko - taking direct orders from US ambassador in Ukraine Taylor. I have friends in the SBU and such and they tell me a lot of interesting stuff you would never possibly believe.
And nobody is treating anybody bad, ukrainians and russians are the same nation divided by communistic and corrupt politicos like german GDR and FRG.
To keep Ukraine and Russia divided is in the best "western" interests and this will be never forgotten by either russians or ukrainians - sooner or later, the "russian" part of Ukraine will join the motherland. The Poles can keep the rest.

Sergei

03-11-2008, 05:08 AM

How much do you know about Ukraine, its history or its people? Countries like Ukraine and Russia having bad ties or possibly even being enemies is sad not because they are right beside eachother or were once part of the USSR. Its sad and upsetting because of the historic, cultural and ethnic ties the people of these two countries have with one another...

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine could easily be one country and almost no one would have to learn a new language or get used to a new culture or people - thats how simular we are, the biggest differences are political BS.

-Dima

Forget it, the guy is too young and too stupid. I am not going to waste my time explaining to youngsters with pimples the peculiarities of Russian-Ukrainian relations.

Sergei

03-11-2008, 05:10 AM

Sergei, aren't you Ukrainian yourself?

I am not a "svidomyi ukr" if that's what you want to know.

Breakfast in Vegas

03-11-2008, 05:31 AM

To keep Ukraine and Russia divided is in the best "western" interests and this will be never forgotten by either russians or ukrainians - sooner or later, the "russian" part of Ukraine will join the motherland. The Poles can keep the rest.
If Ukraine wasn't fundamentally divided by itself, not to mention the rift that exists with Russia, the West certainly couldn't force the two apart. The problems lie within Ukraine and not in the staff rooms of the CIA, NSA or World Bank.

If the West wishes to take advantage and exploit this rift, which seems plausible, it is purely opportunism. Just like Russia selling weapons and technology to whichever despot is willing to pay for it is only opportunism.

intelligenzija

03-11-2008, 07:05 AM

I am not a "svidomyi ukr" if that's what you want to know.

It's ok, I just wanted to make sure you live in ukraine.

holyfetzer

03-11-2008, 07:45 AM

To keep Ukraine and Russia divided is in the best "western" interests and this will be never forgotten by either russians or ukrainians - sooner or later, the "russian" part of Ukraine will join the motherland. The Poles can keep the rest.

That it is quite a sad attitude. I really can't stand that black-and-white portrayal.
Hopefully Ukraine will chose a better way.

Xaito

03-11-2008, 10:01 AM

That it is quite a sad attitude. I really can't stand that black-and-white portrayal.
Hopefully Ukraine will chose a better way.

the white EU/NATO way instead of the black Russia way? p-)

holyfetzer

03-11-2008, 10:10 AM

the white EU/NATO way instead of the black Russia way? p-)

Surely not

Afro-European

03-11-2008, 10:48 AM

Banko

03-11-2008, 03:22 PM

After recent decision of referendum for Ukraine NATO membership, I think its a zero chance for entry. But its only now. After 5 years, things in Ukraine could be different. Modern means for state propaganda can change people minds very fast.

Why do you think that Ukraine is a maltreated stepchild of Russia? Do you know its history?

I believe that a lot of people in the east want it. And Crimea also. Personally I think its good idea, to annex east Ukraine and join it to Russia.
As long as Kiev goes to the Russian side as it rightly should.

Flamming_Python

03-11-2008, 09:23 PM

Ukraine and Russia should unite, but have as equals; i.e. the political entity formed would have to look after the interest of both countries.

Ukraine collapsing on ethnic lines? In fact that should be Russia's biggest worry; it would create countless problems with no quick solution.

AlexMartin2

03-12-2008, 02:09 AM

Ukraine and Russia should unite, but have as equals; i.e. the political entity formed would have to look after the interest of both countries.

I think it is impossible for now. Hell, look at Belarus. Rus-Bel union was proposed 5 or more years ago. But there are some problems, everyone wants to get more from the union.
With Ukraine situation is much more difficult. Western Ukraine doesnt want to be with Russia at all. Eastern part wants. The only possible solution is to divide Ukraine, but now no one ready for that.

Sergei

03-12-2008, 04:11 AM

Reading this heated discussion back and forth make me think that Russia and Ukraine can't get along.Ukraine has the right to make decisions that serve its interest but in the same time they have to take into account that those positions don't severe ties either with the West or Russia.

This is how Ukraine makes decisions. :)

US ambassador Taylor and USchenko's wife instructing the chief of ukrainian SBU (former KGB branch) on what he should do.

http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8123

USchenko's wife, whose father was fighting for Nazis is providing the "right" indoctrination for the masses.
http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8124

A covert and overt agents of influence. US ambassador is making sure the USchenko's wife Katya Chumachenko tows the party line.
http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8125

Damn, who are all these people with US passports and what are they doing in Ukraine?
http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8127

Ukraine is a "puppet state". Currently a "western puppet state".

Havoc345

03-12-2008, 10:58 AM

This is how Ukraine makes decisions. :)

US ambassador Taylor and USchenko's wife instructing the chief of ukrainian SBU (former KGB branch) on what he should do.

http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8123

USchenko's wife, whose father was fighting for Nazis is providing the "right" indoctrination for the masses.
http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8124

A covert and overt agents of influence. US ambassador is making sure the USchenko's wife Katya Chumachenko tows the party line.
http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8125

Damn, who are all these people with US passports and what are they doing in Ukraine?
http://forum.mediaport.info/file.php?104,file=8127

Ukraine is a "puppet state". Currently a "western puppet state".

I'm pretty sure your Schizophrenic

Erki

03-12-2008, 12:10 PM

I am not a "svidomyi ukr" if that's what you want to know.

So you're a russian living in Ukraine. Now I see what the agenda comes from.

Berkut

03-12-2008, 12:36 PM

So you're a russian living in Ukraine. Now I see what the agenda comes from.

about half of Ukraine's population has this "agenda"

Erki

03-12-2008, 01:37 PM

So you say. I'll find out for myself come June.

SS-18

03-12-2008, 02:25 PM

"I'm pretty sure your Schizophrenic"

"Location: Clintonia Age: 17"

Ok i see we have a new expert here .....

Drunkensquid

03-12-2008, 03:18 PM

How much do you know about Ukraine, its history or its people? Countries like Ukraine and Russia having bad ties or possibly even being enemies is sad not because they are right beside eachother or were once part of the USSR. Its sad and upsetting because of the historic, cultural and ethnic ties the people of these two countries have with one another...

Russia, Belarus and Ukraine could easily be one country and almost no one would have to learn a new language or get used to a new culture or people - thats how simular we are, the biggest differences are political BS.

-Dima

How many former Eastern block and former USSR countries currently have excellent ties with Russia willingly(Chechnya etc.)? Not many, but it's all the fault of the West, right?..:(

SS-18

03-12-2008, 03:28 PM

Don't mix government and people.

Havoc345

03-12-2008, 03:50 PM

"I'm pretty sure your Schizophrenic"

"Location: Clintonia Age: 17"

Ok i see we have a new expert here .....

I'm srry I insulted the Russia Strong Agenda. This is just getting ridiculous and pathetic, yea sure the US Ambassador tells Yuschenko how to run his country and to shun Russia and join NATO. Maybe he's America's own Manchurian Candidate. Seriously get real :slap:

Bongopete

03-12-2008, 03:51 PM

Seems that there is some real paranoia 'round here.

SS-18

03-12-2008, 04:27 PM

Do you know who's Yushchenko wife?

Yushchenko is married to Kateryna Yushchenko-Chumachenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kateryna_Yushchenko-Chumachenko) (his second wife). She is a Ukrainian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians)-American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) born in Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago%2C_Illinois) and a former official with the U.S. State Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_State)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

Talk about paranoia here...

Bongopete

03-12-2008, 04:31 PM

Do you know who's Yushchenko wife?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

Talk about paranoia here...

And we have a great many Russians who live here where I live, am I to suppose they are planning an invasion or that they are moles? Paranoia is paranoia.

Havoc345

03-12-2008, 04:33 PM

Do you know who's Yushchenko wife?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yushchenko

Talk about paranoia here...

Yea and the King of Jordan's mother was British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Muna_al-Hussein

So what it doesn't mean the UK is telling Jordan what to do.

Just give it up, BTW Yuschenko's wife was acquitted of the ridiculous charges of her being a US spy. Also guess who made those charges Russia who hates Yuschenko for promoting a NATO friendly nationlistically distinct Ukraine which Russia just can't stand. In the Russians mind Ukraine not being controlled by "Big Brother" is just absurd. Essentially what it all boils down is Russia trying to gain back some of the nations lost in the breakup of the USSR under the pretense that there is a Russian minority in some of these countries so it must be part of Russia. They are only afraid Ukraine will join NATO because most likely other nations will follow suit and Russia we"ll never again be composed of more nations than Russia, basically becoming a minor player in world affairs.