Athens Braces for US Pressure Over FYROM

[achilles]

NATO chief visits after talks break down

Greek diplomats are today bracing for a visit by the chief of NATO following a breakdown in talks between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) that had been aimed at solving the Macedonia name dispute.

NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer is expected to exert pressure on the government to reach a compromise with FYROM ahead of a NATO summit scheduled for April when the Balkan state's accession to the alliance is to be discussed. But Greece also faces pressure on the domestic front, according to the results of an opinion poll, conducted by Public Issue for Kathimerini, which shows that 84 percent of people want the government to veto FYROM's NATO accession if a mutually acceptable solution to the name dispute is not reached.

The two diplomats representing Greece and FYROM returned home empty-handed after Saturday's negotiations with a UN mediator in New York failed to reach a breakthrough. The UN's Matthew Nimetz spoke of «substantive differences» between the two sides. He is now expected to take a back seat as the US applies pressure on both Athens and Skopje to reach a solution ahead of next month's summit. According to sources, US President George W. Bush will telephone Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis and FYROM's Branko Crvenkovski.

Before boarding his flight to Athens, Scheffer said that he had discussed the name issue with Bush and would brief Karamanlis and Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis on the president's stance.

According to sources, Scheffer will probably stress Greece's obligations as a NATO member state and object to the country's negative stance on the two main topics on the agenda of next month's summit, namely the alliance's enlargement and the recognition of Kosovo as independent.

It is unclear whether the US will propose anything in the framework of the name talks.

Greece had declared itself ready to discuss one of the five composite names proposed by Nimetz. But FYROM rejected all five suggestions.

Russia's Ambassador to Greece Andrei Vdovin told Sunday's Kathimerini that his country would be willing to adopt whichever new composite name is agreed upon for FYROM even though it recognized the Balkan state by its constitutional name in 1992. «In view of Greece's concerns and with the aim of securing stability in the Balkans. ...(Russia) will accept whichever settlement meets the criteria (of a mutually acceptable solution),» Vdovin said. Moscow would be ready to use the new name in its bilateral relations with FYROM, he added.

Last week the US ambassador in Athens, Daniel Speckhardt, avoided commenting on whether Washington would adopt the new name - once it is has been agreed - in its bilateral dealings with FYROM.

Eight in 10 back veto option

Eight in 10 Greeks feel that the government should veto FYROM's bid to join NATO and the European Union if the two sides cannot resolve the name dispute, according to a poll conducted by Public Issue on behalf of Sunday's Kathimerini.

With a rally planned in Thessaloniki on Wednesday, 36 percent of those questioned said they would «definitely» take part in a public protest about the name issue. Another 16 percent said they would «probably» take to the streets.

However, only a quarter of Greeks believe that FYROM is a «big» or «very big» threat to Greece's security. The same percentage think that it would be a «national catastrophe» if Greece's neighbor is recognized as Macedonia.

The diplomatic process is due to continue but almost half of Greeks feel that Athens is fighting a losing battle.

The poll suggests that 48 percent feel that the government can win its diplomatic battle to ensure that the neighboring state does not call itself «Macedonia.» But exactly the same percentage of respondents feel that, with almost 120 countries now recognizing the Balkan state as «Macedonia,» Greek efforts will probably prove futile.

The only name that anywhere near the majority of Greeks seem willing to accept is «Democratic Republic of Upper Macedonia» - 43 percent of some 600 respondents questioned last week said that they would «definitely» or «probably» accept this name.
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_100003_03/03/2008_93996

Keep it civil and it wont be locked.

Lets replace "threat" with "pressure" and i guess we'll all be happy...

[TurpoUrpo]

I'm with Greeks on this one, altough i'm not fan of them based on my limited experience in them (two weeks in Thessaloniki and Athens, so i'm not expert and not educated enough in Greeces close history, comment is just ment to demonstrate that my opinion is purely cold logic).

It is only fair that this country that has no relation to that of ancient Macedonia, is not allowed to use Macedonia as a name, nothing personal. This whole thing just sounds like FYROM is trying to be greater than it is by making artificial relation to ancient Macedonia witch was great nation in its time.

Upper Macedonia would suffice and be fair as FYROM by no means doesn't represent whole geographig area of Macedonia, if that would be case then there would be no dispute at all.

[achilles]

I'm with Greeks on this one, altough i'm not fan of them based on my experience in them (two weeks in Thessaloniki and Athens).

What happened?

[TurpoUrpo]

What happened?

We shouldn't offrail this straight away?

Lets put it this way, nothing happened. It was more the overall picture (i made little adjustment on that earlier post).

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

What about a possible union with Macadonia?

Greece gets more historical land

Macadonia joins a prosperous nation and can keep the name.

Everyones happy except the Turks.

[achilles]

What about a possible union with Macadonia?

Greece gets more historical land

Macadonia joins a prosperous nation and can keep the name.

Everyones happy except the Turks.

What is the "Macadonia"?p-)

[achilles]

In a nutshell, Skopje (FYROM - Vardarska) has two simple options. Either cooperate with Greece and resolve the dispute by finding a commonly accepted name, or stay out of NATO's umbrella, at least for now.

And its not that NATO will collapse if FYROM stays out.


What is tragic with those people is that they want to monopolize the name. They dont realize that they already have more than they deserve, given that their only relation with "Makedonism" is artificial and circumstantial. We are promoting a composite name. A name that will distinct geographically FYROM from the real, i.e. Hellenic, Macedonia. For example the name "Upper Macedonia" could be a good and decent basis for discussion that would smooth out our relations and open every door for them, but FYROM, with the blessings of our good friend and ally the United States of America, is outrageously stubborn.

Greece does not want monopoly of the name, although Macedonian history cannot be shared with people that have nothing to do with historical "makedonism". Greece is seeking for a decent, commonly accepted resolution.

[heintzX]

In a nutshell, Skopje (FYROM - Vardarska) has two simple options. Either cooperate with Greece and resolve the dispute by finding a commonly accepted name, or stay out of NATO's umbrella, at least for now.

And its not that NATO will collapse if FYROM stays out.


What is tragic with those people is that they want to monopolize the name. They dont realize that they already have more than they deserve, given that their only relation with "Makedonism" is artificial and circumstantial. We are promoting a composite name. A name that will distinct geographically FYROM from the real, i.e. Hellenic, Macedonia. For example the name "Upper Macedonia" could be a good and decent basis for discussion that would smooth out our relations and open every door for them, but FYROM, with the blessings of our good friend and ally the United States of America, is outrageously stubborn.

Greece does not want monopoly of the name, although Macedonian history cannot be shared with people that have nothing to do with historical "makedonism". Greece is seeking for a decent, commonly accepted resolution.

How about you cooperate with NATO and EU?A commonly accepted name...They offered one to be used in relations with Greece.Which name they use in relation with other countries is interfering in other state internal affairs.

2.Now since when does Greece decides who deserves and what?

3.Why does not Greece change the name of the province let us say Greek Macedonia for example?

[Ludipipo]

Greek Macedonia for example?

There is no "Greek Macedonia" - there is only ONE Macedonia.

[shocker1]

To me if the people of Greece feel a certain way we should respect that and approach the issue like sovereign nations. This bully tactic going on through NATO with a friend is not part of my American view point. Sorry to disappoint some of my fellow citizens.

[Afro-European]

Is it something special about that name for Greece?
Why can't Macedonia change its to solve this issue?
Why should Macedonia join Nato? and if it doesn't,then what will happen?

[achilles]

How about you cooperate with NATO and EU?A commonly accepted name...They offered one to be used in relations with Greece.Which name they use in relation with other countries is interfering in other state internal affairs.

You dont understand the dynamics of the issue and i dont blame you.



Now since when does Greece decides who deserves and what?

And since when the US of A shafts its traditional allies (and in that case the oldest NATO ally in the Balkans, spending more than 3% of its GDP in, basically, the American "defense" industry), and supports a corrupt statelet whose only aim is to appropriate Hellenic history, symbols and names?


Who is to decide what happens in the Balkans? Bush? From his ranch in Texas?


Why does not Greece change the name of the province let us say Greek Macedonia for example?

That would be tantamount to shooting ourselves in the leg. By doing something like that, we admit that there is such an entity that is both "Macedonian" and non-Greek.


All in all, how about NATO supports Greece for a change?

[achilles]

Is it something special about that name for Greece?

Of course mate. Macedonia is a Greek province (more than 80% of the ancient Macedonia) with 2 million Greek inhabitants.


Why can't Macedonia change its to solve this issue?

because they are brainwashed to the point of believing (at least a good part of them) that they are direct descendants of Philip and Alexander the Great and that Greece illegally occupies the remaining 80% of their land. :lol: Yes...the situation is so tragic!



Why should Macedonia join Nato? and if it doesn't,then what will happen?

IMHO; because this serves American interests in the region and elsewhere. Namely:

-FYROM might sent troops to Afghanistan, where troops are desperately needed.
-USA vacuums under its umbrella a traditional "Soviet" ally and gets thus gets into Russia's nose, with Russian interests in the region accumulating as we speak.
-USA creates a potential "Trojan Horse" in Europe, which may join the European Union one day. I believe you catch the drift here...
- A puppet state, especially in the Balkans, is always useful. First Albania..now FYROM.

On edit: nothing will happen if FYROM stays out of NATO. They hardly have any military.

[achilles]

To me if the people of Greece feel a certain way we should respect that and approach the issue like sovereign nations. This bully tactic going on through NATO with a friend is not part of my American view point. Sorry to disappoint some of my fellow citizens.

Thank you for your post.

[Ender Wiggin]

3.Why does not Greece change the name of the province let us say Greek Macedonia for example?

Classic! :roll: Turning their back to important part of their history, just so the nation moving near there some 10 centuries later can use the name. It's like sticking Bentley sign on a yugo. Are you kidding?

Ender

[heintzX]

You dont understand the dynamics of the issue and i dont blame you.




And since when the US of A shafts its traditional allies (and in that case the oldest NATO ally in the Balkans, spending more than 3% of its GDP in, basically, the American "defense" industry), and supports a corrupt statelet whose only aim is to appropriate Hellenic history, symbols and names?


Who is to decide what happens in the Balkans? Bush? From his ranch in Texas?



That would be tantamount to shooting ourselves in the leg. By doing something like that, we admit that there is such an entity that is both "Macedonian" and non-Greek.


All in all, how about NATO supports Greece for a change?


I don't understand the dynamics?Explain......That is official stance of the Macedonian government,a name for bilateral use with Greece,and their constitutional name in use with the other countries.What is more to understand?What more does Greece need than a official agreement of any kind that Macedonia have no territorial demands towards Greece?

In my understanding you guys are trying to deny their whole existence as a nation.

[heintzX]

- A puppet state, especially in the Balkans, is always useful. First Albania..now FYROM.

On edit: nothing will happen if FYROM stays out of NATO. They hardly have any military.


Ok so now i understand.........everybody around Greece is fake,FYROM Albania,Turkey.........no hard feelings but you have disputes with all of them....

As for the military,FYROM has more soldiers than you do in Afganistan.


Dude it seems that as far the US is concerned Greece is the trojan horse at the moment....why all that pressure from them and the EU?

[TurpoUrpo]

No one is trying to deny any nations existence, but to give nation name after some ancient nation witch shares no genetic or historical relation to that nation is just ridiculous. More on that is that ancient Macedonia is part of Greeces history not some slavic people who have arrived to that region much later and have nothing to do with that ancient nation.

(wiki has good article on that issue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute)

And on part of proposal that there should be a name for bilateral use with Greece,and their constitutional name in use with the other countries. Is to put the problem under carpet.

And like stated, 80% of ancient Macedonian is greeces soil and still they dont want monopoly on that name like FYROM, altough they have greater right to that name.

To have a country with name Macedonia and country with same name Macedonia on its province. If you just hear it, without knowing better, you would wrongly assume that Greece has conquered part of another nation witch is not the case. That is big problem.

[achilles]

Ok so now i understand.........everybody around Greece is fake,FYROM Albania,Turkey.........no hard feelings but you have disputes with all of them....

Thats not what i said. Turkey, FYROM or Albania are not fake. What is fake is the artificially created "Macedonian ethnicity" by Joseph Tito, about 60 years ago. What is fake is their pseudo "macedonian" history. What is really disturbing is their shameless, irredentist anti-Greek propaganda, like the maps they issue every now and then in which their borders expand to Mount Olympus....

In any case, we are now willing to share the term "Macedonia" with a purely georaphic connotation. And they can call themselves whatever they want, as long as they respect a trully well intended neighbour, who invests heavily into their problematic economy.

Definitely they have the right to self-determination but not at the expense of Hellenic history, terminology, symbols and, perhaps, turf.


As for the military,FYROM has more soldiers than you do in Afganistan.

The fact that we are NATO members does not mean that we are oblidged to consume valuable resources in wars that have nothing to do with us, i.e. Afghanistan.



Dude it seems that as far the US is concerned Greece is the trojan horse at the moment....

In a way, yes, we are a US protectorate and that is really sad for my country. Hopefully, things will change.

Why all the pressure to create puppet states? Because countries like Albania and FYROM are much more easy to control and dictate.

[alvarhanso]

Greece is a acting sad, sad, sad. You might think otherwise, but that's the truth. It's politics is stuck somewhere in the middle ages or even better in the Antic period which are they so proud of (that's unfortunate for all it's neighbors, since they DON'T have any good relations with any of them).
If they are so right on this issue, why aren't they backed up by any country... and i'm saying ANY country. Surely, if they were wright, somebody would say... "Hey, Dimitris (or whoever), i get it, this guys are a pain in the b*t. I'm with you on this one".
But, it looks to me, there isn't a country in NATO that would share your opinion. You can rely on NATO solidarity between member states, sure, but that isn't happening right now.
By acting this way you are shooting yourself in the foot, the whole region would suffer. People don't seem to see the big picture and that is unfortunate.
We have not seen anything but selfish politics from the other side. Maybe your lies can pass here, but that ain't happenin in the real world "buddy", and that's where it counts.

[alvarhanso]

No one is trying to deny any nations existence, but to give nation name after some ancient nation witch shares no genetic or historical relation to that nation is just ridiculous. More on that is that ancient Macedonia is part of Greeces history not some slavic people who have arrived to that region much later and have nothing to do with that ancient nation.

(wiki has good article on that issue http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute)

And on part of proposal that there should be a name for bilateral use with Greece,and their constitutional name in use with the other countries. Is to put the problem under carpet.

And like stated, 80% of ancient Macedonian is greeces soil and still they dont want monopoly on that name like FYROM, altough they have greater right to that name.

To have a country with name Macedonia and country with same name Macedonia on its province. If you just hear it, without knowing better, you would wrongly assume that Greece has conquered part of another nation witch is not the case. That is big problem.

Dude, have you ever been in Macedonia? Do you know something else except for the stuff on Wiki?? How would that make you an expert on Balkan politics. Finland is on the other side on the continent, how on earth would you know ANYTHING about stuff here?

[heintzX]

Dude that's the whole problem here on the Balkans.Everybody has his own version of Balkan history.......

[alvarhanso]

Ok so now i understand.........everybody around Greece is fake,FYROM Albania,Turkey.........no hard feelings but you have disputes with all of them....

As for the military,FYROM has more soldiers than you do in Afganistan.


Dude it seems that as far the US is concerned Greece is the trojan horse at the moment....why all that pressure from them and the EU?

Let's not forget our troops in Iraq, Bosnia, Lebanon.... and soon enough, Chad.

[alvarhanso]

Dude that the whole problem here on the Balkans.Everybody has his own version of Balkan history.......

You are trying to sugar things up. You stated something against my people, my country, my believes.

[TurpoUrpo]

Dude, have you ever been in Macedonia? Do you know something else except for the stuff on Wiki?? How would that make you an expert on Balkan politics. Finland is on the other side on the continent, how on earth would you know ANYTHING about stuff here?

Why wouldn't I know something?

And in case i'm wrong on something, please feel free to counter argument in constructive manner.

[Bongopete]

I have a question:oops:

Can someone neutral tell me what the problem is?
I mean, it IS more than simply what someone wants to call themselves isnt it?

[achilles]

Greece is a acting sad, sad, sad. You might think otherwise, but that's the truth. It's politics is stuck somewhere in the middle ages or even better in the Antic period which are they so proud of (that's unfortunate for all it's neighbors, since they DON'T have any good relations with any of them).
If they are so right on this issue, why aren't they backed up by any country... and i'm saying ANY country. Surely, if they were wright, somebody would say... "Hey, Dimitris (or whoever), i get it, this guys are a pain in the b*t. I'm with you on this one".
But, it looks to me, there isn't a country in NATO that would share your opinion. You can rely on NATO solidarity between member states, sure, but that isn't happening right now.
By acting this way you are shooting yourself in the foot, the whole region would suffer. People don't seem to see the big picture and that is unfortunate.
We have not seen anything but selfish politics from the your side. Maybe your lies can pass here, but that ain't happenin in the real world "buddy", and that's where it counts.

As i have told you before, the masters of lying and counterfeiting in the Balkans is you (plural), of course. I cannot blame you personally because you were born and raised in an "ethnic macedonian illusion" that was launched by Joseph Tito. Its really sad to see how deceived you people are, but thats a different discussion.

4-5 generations down the line, i do not expect anything better than, precisely, your mentality.

In fact, you are stuck with your fake "makedonism" and hidden in America's underwear you insist in NOT collaborating with Greece. Why is it so difficult to understand that you CANNOT monopolize something that is not yours and that you only have to gain from a reconciliation and understanding of our worries and sensitivities regarding your name.

We dont want to harm you. We want us to meet in the middle and you definitely are not working towards that direction.

[alvarhanso]

Well, you should start by reading what the other side has to say... for starters.

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/
http://historyofmacedonia.org/
http://www.macedonia.org/

[achilles]

I have a question:oops:

Can someone neutral tell me what the problem is?
I mean, it IS more than simply what someone wants to call themselves isnt it?

Assume the break-up of Canada.

Imagine Southern Canada being unilateraly renamed to Illinois-Michigan-Portland etc. Then imagine the inhabitants of this region to actually believe that the US has stolen those lands from them, because this is what an authoritarian ruler told them 60 years ago (Tito in the case of FYROM). Imagine this fake Illinois-Michigan-Portland statelet to raise territorial and historical claims against you. Imagine this entity making claims of a "suppressed minority" within American borders that needs to be liberated.


I hope its more clear now.

[heintzX]

Thats not what i said. Turkey, FYROM or Albania are not fake. What is fake is the artificially created "Macedonian ethnicity" by Joseph Tito, about 60 years ago. What is fake is their pseudo "macedonian" history. What is really disturbing is their shameless, irredentist anti-Greek propaganda, like the maps they issue every now and then in which their borders expand to Mount Olympus....

In any case, we are now willing to share the term "Macedonia" with a purely georaphic connotation. And they can call themselves whatever they want, as long as they respect a trully well intended neighbour, who invests heavily into their problematic economy.

Definitely they have the right to self-determination but not at the expense of Hellenic history, terminology, symbols and, perhaps, turf.



The fact that we are NATO members does not mean that we are oblidged to consume valuable resources in wars that have nothing to do with us, i.e. Afghanistan.




In a way, yes, we are a US protectorate and that is really sad for my country. Hopefully, things will change.

Why all the pressure to create puppet states? Because countries like Albania and FYROM are much more easy to control and dictate.


1.Well they respect their neighbor by accepting to use a different name in bilateral relations what more do you need?

2.It's Josip Tito,and the history of calling themselves Macedonians goes far more back,as far i understood by being here.....And the thing with the brainwashing now can you explain how come that 2 000 000 people are brainwashed?

3.Anti-Greek propaganda?And yet you are allowed to be significant part of their economy?Pass the Borders without passports?Use their territory to supply your troops in Kosovo?


And i told you i can not accept history as an argument in finding solutions on Balkan disputes.......

[achilles]

Well, you should start by reading what the other side has to say... for starters.

http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/
http://historyofmacedonia.org/

Those websites are a disgrace to history and are condemned by actually any serious academic. One of those profound websites conducted a "genetic research" on Greeks, according to which we are of Ethiopian origin :lol: (nothing wrong with that but...cmon...)

This pseudo scientific study was condemned by magazine "nature" as being, more or less, a disgrace to science itself.


I told you, evidence is not your best bet. Try something else...like counterfeiting...

[alvarhanso]

As i have told you before, the masters of lying and counterfeiting in the Balkans is you (plural), of course. I cannot blame you personally because you were born and raised in an "ethnic macedonian illusion" that was launched by Joseph Tito. Its really sad to see how deceived you people are, but thats a different discussion.

4-5 generations down the line, i do not expect anything better than, precisely, your mentality.

In fact, you are stuck with your fake "makedonism" and hidden in America's underwear you insist in NOT collaborating with Greece. Why is it so difficult to understand that you CANNOT monopolize something that is not yours and that you only have to gain from a reconciliation and understanding of our worries and sensitivities regarding your name.

We dont want to harm you. We want us to meet in the middle and you definitely are not working towards that direction.

You ARE serious, aren't you!?
Coming from a nation that doesn't recognize any minorities in it's country, from a country that changed it's northern region into Macedonia in 1988, a country that drove off hundreds of thousands people from their homes in Egean macedonia....
We should take you seriously? Who said anything about monopolizing the name!? We don't want that, we are trying to be good neighbors here, but we are getting doors shut from the other side.

[alvarhanso]

Those websites are a disgrace to history and are condemned by actually any serious academic. One of those profound websites conducted a "genetic research" on Greeks, according to which we are of Ethiopian origin :lol: (nothing wrong with that but...cmon...)

This pseudo scientific study was condemned by magazine "nature" as being, more or less, a disgrace to science itself.


I told you, evidence is not your best bet. Try something else...like counterfeiting...

Aha... and you gona post some "credible" sources now i guess. Like... lets say.... Greek ones. rofl

[Raven_gr]

hey alvarhanso if you trully are a macedonian why don't you come a by museum and read some ancient macedonian inscripture or text. I am certain you can't since they are all written in ancient Greek. I can read them and so does every educated adult Macedonian, every Greek. Open a book, read some Aristotle or Arian in the original text if you can and you will see past that silly propaganda.

[heintzX]

Now see what i mean when history comes forward on the Balkan.That is why i say that only a strong Eu and US stance will solve things here.I have passed almost all the balkan countries and it is all the same.....everybody has their own version of the history........

[achilles]

1.Well they respect their neighbor by accepting to use a different name in bilateral relations what more do you need?

This is a joke. This is circumventing ALL our worries, needs and sensitivities on the issue. Dont you understand that even the fact that we propose a composite name that inlcludes the term "Macedonia" is way more than they deserve? Its a win-win situation for them but they still want everything.


.....And the thing with the brainwashing now can you explain how come that 2 000 000 people are brainwashed?

There are some cool headed FYROMians of course who are alligned with reality. The rest (apart from the vast Albanian minority) are brainwashed by an educational system that has been telling them for 60 years that they are Macedonians and that those baby-eaters the Greeks are suppressing them and illegally occupying their ancient motherlands! :lol:


[Anti-Greek propaganda?And yet you are allowed to be significant part of their economy?Pass the Borders without passports?Use their territory to supply your troops in Kosovo?

Of course. It sounds like a paradox but thats they way it is. Dont forget that sometimes the corporate world does not care so much about geopolitics and history when profits are involved. ;)



And i told you i can not accept history as an argument in finding solutions on Balkan disputes.......

When history, symbols and names are vehicles on which preposterous claims can be made..then i am afraid solutions in the Balkans need to take into account into history, among other things.

[achilles]

Aha... and you gona post some "credible" sources now i guess. Like... lets say.... Greek ones. rofl

Dont turn this into a kindergarden. You have done it before and you got suspended. Be wiser this time.


Judge my sources, IF and WHEN i post them. Not in advance.

[alvarhanso]

hey alvarhanso if you trully are a macedonian why don't you come a by museum and read some ancient macedonian inscripture or text. I am certain you can't since they are all written in ancient Greek. I can read them and so does every educated adult Macedonian, every Greek. Open a book, read some Aristotle or Arian in the original text if you can and you will see past that silly propaganda. Jerk!

Calling me names wont help this debate go in the right direction, friend.

[alvarhanso]

Ok... i see this is another dead end discussion. Lets, just for a minute... leave history aside (since that is a difficult thing to debate between Macedonians and Greeks), and talk about the current situation, do you have any views on that? Just want to know what you guys think.

[achilles]

Ok... i see this is another dead end discussion. Lets, just for a minute... leave history aside (since that is a difficult thing to debate between Macedonians and Greeks),

Wrong my friend!:lol: It is very difficult for YOU to debate history because you have absolutely no credibility, sources, serious evidence to back up what your educational system has been feeding you with.

On the other hand, i have endless INDEPENDENT accounts that support my historical claims. But lets not get into that now, shall we not? ;)

For me, debating that ancient, medieval and modern Macedonians were and are Greeks is like arguing that i am not an elephant.




and talk about the current situation, do you have any views on that? Just want to know what you guys think.

Fine, lets do that..

What do you propose? If you were in your Prime Minister's shoes, what would u do?

[alvarhanso]

Fine, lets do that..

What do you propose? If you were in your Prime Minister's shoes, what would u do?

Hmmmm.... probably the same thing he is doing right now. A nations name and it's rich history is hardly a thing you could trade for...
NATO membership means peanuts to us if we change the name. Would you change yours if someone was blackmailing you to do so?

[heintzX]

This is a joke. This is circumventing ALL our worries, needs and sensitivities on the issue. Dont you understand that even the fact that we propose a composite name that inlcludes the term "Macedonia" is way more than they deserve? Its a win-win situation for them but they still want everything.



There are some cool headed FYROMians of course who are alligned with reality. The rest (apart from the vast Albanian minority) are brainwashed by an educational system that has been telling them for 60 years that they are Macedonians and that those baby-eaters the Greeks are suppressing them and illegally occupying their ancient motherlands! :lol:



Of course. It sounds like a paradox but thats they way it is. Dont forget that sometimes the corporate world does not care so much about geopolitics and history when profits are involved. ;)




When history, symbols and names are vehicles on which preposterous claims can be made..then i am afraid solutions in the Balkans need to take into account into history, among other things.
1. The only united stance in this country(which you refer as FYROM) is the one that no one can change their name or identity.Now what coolheaded FYROMians?

2.Maybe your system brainwashed you with the fact that tito brainwashed them.You did not gave any credible links that they were brainwashed.What it looks to me by reading your posts is that everybody who is not Greek is brainwashed,or a puppet state.

3.Hey you said anti Greek propaganda.I can not see any.They did a lot.They changed their flag years ago,and clearly stated that they have no territorial demands toward Greece.

4.I wonder what do you think what should US do about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)

[achilles]

Ok, i will post my take and then you can comment on it.

The fact that we ended up bargaining a composite name is the result of the Greek policy 15 years ago, when the Mitsotakis administration, (in fact Mitsotakis himself) proposed FYROM as an interim solution. I dont know why he did that but that was clearly a present to you. Make no mistake my Skopjan friends... the term "macedonia" was handed over to you by Greece for reasons that are not to be discussed here. Lets say that we did that a a gesture of good will. On the contrary, you responded by irredentist propaganda and blatant utilization of Hellenic symbols and appropriation of the Greek history. We embargoed you, and brought you back to your senses.

Since the composite name is in fact a Greek proposition that is, now, irrevocable, i could live with the following solution: "Republic of Upper Macedonia", which clearly assigns your "Macedonicity" with a geographical notion, because there is no such thing as a "Macedonian ethnicity".

Other than that, you can call yourselves Spartans among you, i couldnt care less....

[Raven_gr]

I will refrain from bashing you for your flamebait and go on with my question...
Why would a geographic statement in the name be unacceptible?

[shocker1]

4.I wonder what do you think what should US do about this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28U.S._state%29)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country))
I think we Georgia USA will move our border and take our water from the Tennessee River. It is our right and no border error should keep the People of Georgia USA from this watershed resource with it's large amount of Blue Ridge Water. Georgia Country supports us in this and this mutual respect among peoples lets us honor each other with mutual names.

[achilles]

1. The only united stance in this country(which you refer as FYROM) is the one that no one can change their name or identity.Now what coolheaded FYROMians?

2.Maybe your system brainwashed you with the fact that tito brainwashed them.You did not gave any credible links that they were brainwashed.What it looks to me by reading your posts is that everybody who is not Greek is brainwashed,or a puppet state.

3.Hey you said anti Greek propaganda.I can not see any.They did a lot.They changed their flag years ago,and clearly stated that they have no territorial demands toward Greece.

4.I wonder what do you think what should US do about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(U.S._state)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_(country)


As a general comment:

- You have been following what has been posted around here (including myself) regarding the Macedonian issue.

- You are not aware of FYROMs stance. They DO raise territorial claims and they DO issue preposterous maps with Greek turf included.

- I never reside to aphorisms like "...everybody who is not Greek is brainwashed,or a puppet state..". Those are your words and by all means be more carefull with the way you interpret my posts.

- You dont see any propaganda? :lol: Do you know anything about the subject mate? Just click on Alvarhanso's link and enjoy the ride....


If you want sources, i can provide you...just tell me on which topic exactly cause the whole thing is manifold.

[alvarhanso]

Ok, i will post my take and then you can comment on it.

The fact that we ended up bargaining a composite name is the result of the Greek policy 15 years ago, when the Mitsotakis administration, (in fact Mitsotakis himself) proposed FYROM as an interim solution. I dont know why he did that but that was clearly a present to you. Make no mistake my Skopjan friends... the term "macedonia" was handed over to you by Greece for reasons that are not to be discussed here. Lets say that we did that a a gesture of good will. On the contrary, you responded by irredentist propaganda and blatant utilization of Hellenic symbols and appropriation of the Greek history. We embargoed you, and brought you back to your senses.

Since the composite name is in fact a Greek proposition that is, now, irrevocable, i could live with the following solution: "Republic of Upper Macedonia", which clearly assigns your "Macedonicity" with a geographical notion, because there is no such thing as a "Macedonian ethnicity".

Other than that, you can call yourselves Spartans among you, i couldnt care less....

Aha, and in your view, IF (that would be a cold day in hell) we change the name into.. lets say Upper Macedonia, wouldn't that change the name of the nation... wouldn't we become Upper Macedonians (when clearly we are not)?
The date on FYROM expires very, very soon. In fact, the minute you push the veto in NATO (which will be the first time in NATO's history), Macedonia will call upon the UN General Assembly , and this issue will be history for once and for all.

[heintzX]

As a general comment:

- You have been following what has been posted around here (including myself) regarding the Macedonian issue.

- You are not aware of FYROMs stance. They DO raise territorial claims and they DO issue preposterous maps with Greek turf included.

- I never reside to aphorisms like "...everybody who is not Greek is brainwashed,or a puppet state..". Those are your words and by all means be more carefull with the way you interpret my posts.

- You dont see any propaganda? :lol: Do you know anything about the subject mate? Just click on Alvarhanso's link and enjoy the ride....


If you want sources, i can provide you...just tell me on which topic exactly cause the whole thing is manifold.


Aha so i am not aware of FYROM stance,and every fu..ing day i see a dozen Macedonian officials?And you are aware of it by watching Greek national television......Dude i saw the propositions of the Macedonian government and i am fully aware of what they are consisted of.....they are ready to sign every international agreement that says that RM has no territorial demands towards Greece.You don't believe me?Try raise the question in front of the UN and you will see........

You said clearly that they were brainwashed and that Albania is puppet state,now......


Like i told you history is far behind me.........it is the future that i am interested in.......



and i am still waiting on your stance on Georgia issue...

[alvarhanso]

This "geographical" solution for the "name dispute" is just a bait, and a lousy one. You could have come up with something smarter.

[Raven_gr]

Well Slavomacedonia was proposed in the past and it does make sense...

[alvarhanso]

Well Slavomacedonia was proposed in the past and it does make sense...

Mmmmm......To whom?

[Afro-European]

I've been following the discussing here back and forth.I must admit that nationalistic sentiments are too high on both sides.So no one can expect a side to give in.Here is my suggestion to the "Macedonia dilemma" : Democratic Republic of Macedonia.It sounds great,doesn't it?




Well Slavomacedonia was proposed in the past and it does make sense...

[Raven_gr]

Mmmmm......To whom?



It was proposed back in the 90's by the former prime minister Mitsotakis. It does make sense since the so called "macedonians" are of Slavic decend. Then again you can argue that around 1/4 of your population are Albanians right?

[Afro-European]

To Macedonia,if i may jump in. lol:)


Mmmmm......To whom?

[Raven_gr]

I've been following the discussing here back and forth.I must admit that nationalist sentiments are too high on both sides.So no one can expect a side to give in.Here is my suggestion to the "Macedonia dilemma" : Democratic Republic of Macedonia.It sounds great,doesn't it?




mmm no. It's like calling FYROM plain Macedonia. How do you call China? Democratic republic of China or plain China

[alvarhanso]

In the end... who cares. Greece WILL veto Macedonia's NATO membership = Greece WILL loose the so called "name dispute". Couldn't be more simple. Seat back and enjoy the show, that's all i can say.

[alvarhanso]

To Macedonia,if i may jump in. lol:)

Not very funny... and no it doesn't.

[alvarhanso]

mmm no. It's like calling FYROM plain Macedonia. How do you call China? Democratic republic of China or plain China

Peoples Republic of China???

[heintzX]

this whole thing is a dead end....totally....now it would be very interesting to see Greece veto Macedonia's NATO candidature.....first Kosovo then this......a lot against EU and US policy...i am not sure that Greece is that strong.....by any means........

[Raven_gr]

this whole thing is a dead end....totally....now it would be very interesting to see Greece veto Macedonia's NATO candidature.....first Kosovo then this......a lot against EU and US policy...i am not sure that Greece is that strong.....by any means........

We live in the region. If the balkans burn again in another war who will feel more heat Greece, or the rest of the west some hundred miles away?


In the end... who cares. Greece WILL veto Macedonia's NATO membership = Greece WILL loose the so called "name dispute". Couldn't be more simple. Seat back and enjoy the show, that's all i can say.

Typical... when you can't say anything you resolve to ass-talking

[Afro-European]

Ohh let me see.You expect Greece to give in to please the US and EU?
Greece might be that strong but without its consent FYROM won't join the EU and Nato.



this whole thing is a dead end....totally....now it would be very interesting to see Greece veto Macedonia's NATO candidature.....first Kosovo then this......a lot against EU and US policy...i am not sure that Greece is that strong.....by any means........

[Peris]

like the maps they issue every now and then in which their borders expand to Mount Olympus....
.

i hope my late grandmother's village will remain in our territory.:)



http://www.2search.gr/product_application/CatalogManager/components/image_site_logo_s.asp?i=pierias.jpg

[alvarhanso]

We live in the region. If the balkans burn again in another war who will feel more heat Greece, or the rest of the west some hundred miles away?



Typical... when you can't say anything you resolve to ass-talking

And who do you think is pouring the gasoline on the flame? Macedonia!? Don't think so. It's Greece!! By clenching to it's stuburn, unrealistic politics, it's doing more harm to this region than Milosivech (who had Greece's simpaties by the way).
IF something happens in this region (and it will, eventually), Greece is going to be point out as a side who was steering the s**t up.

[alvarhanso]

Ohh let me see.You expect Greece to give in to please the US and EU?
Greece might be that strong but without its consent FYROM won't join the EU and Nato.


And you expect Macedonia to give in to please Greece!?!? Come ooooon....

[alvarhanso]

i hope my late grandmother's village will remain in our territory.:)



http://www.2search.gr/product_application/CatalogManager/components/image_site_logo_s.asp?i=pierias.jpg


You are making this a territorial issue again. And it's not. nobody wants your villages. But if it's a good place to hide your irredentism... go ahead.

[Mordoror]

Ho Yes ....

One more thread with users from both side that use and re-use arguments 20 years old .....

Listen, everybody being Greeks or macedonian
I will repeat it one more time

Both sides are wrong by pushing nationalism in the heads of their own people which make the further discussion not possible

Look at that thread
One more time there is a drawn line between Greeks and Macedonians and everybody is staying on its own side

Now what legitimate a name and what is the definition of a state

What legitimate a name of a country is the history, the people who live here and the geography
from a people point of view I agree that the name Macedonia belongs to Greece
Now from a Geopgraphic point of view at least in the south of Macedonia/FYROM, the name is deserved

And in a historical point of view the ancient Hellenistic/Greek/Alexander Macedonia is now the same name region of Greece
But the Roman Empire province of the same name convers also the FYROM/Macedonia state

Now let's say who deserve to keep this name or use it ?
Tell me
And more tell me why now it bothers Greece whereas it was not the case before 1991 (I have personnaly seeing markets on the Greek's border with "special popus za Makedonzi" which means special price lowering for macedonians written in slavish language) or why the Bulgarian Makedonia region is not then an issue

Anyway Greeks are not the only guilty, the Macedonian nationalists played with fire; However as I said on the other topic, the country that hurts the other the most is Greece vs Macedonia not the reverse
Do not allowing them to enter NATO is a restriction for their security
Do not allowing them to enter EU is a restriction for their economy

Who is playing the most bad guy here ?

That's a pity because both countries could have a profitable way of living one near the other instead of continuous bashing and flaming

[chris450]

I have a question:oops:

Can someone neutral tell me what the problem is?
I mean, it IS more than simply what someone wants to call themselves isnt it?

well..i am not neutral ,but here is an answer anyway..as brief as it can be

the name issue is used as a vehicle for the irredentist propaganda of a candidate NATO member (FYROM) against a member of NATO (Greece)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg
(PM of FYROM Gruevksi honoring the monument on FYROMs national Hero Goce Delcev -note the map on the monument ,it depicts their claims half of Greece including the Greek province of Macedonia is in it)

we are being way too soft on this

imagine how you'd feel if.....

Mexico broke up in 2...the part neighbouring the US named itself Texas...and its president honoured Pancho Villas grave with a map with Texas outside the US borders on the tombstone...

[Raven_gr]

And who do you think is pouring the gasoline on the flame? Macedonia!? Don't think so. It's Greece!! By clenching to it's stuburn, unrealistic politics, it's doing more harm to this region than Milosivech (who had Greece's simpaties by the way).
IF something happens in this region (and it will, eventually), Greece is going to be point out as a side who was steering the s**t up.

Now you are comparing our policies to those of Milosevic...WOW...
Do you see any Greek tanks on your doorstep, or Greek Fighters on your skies?
Sad, sad post


And you expect Macedonia to give in to please Greece!?!? Come ooooon....

We don't expect you do give in to anything, we are asking you to seek a comprimise on the issue through dialogue. We are not putting a gun on your head.

[Mordoror]

well..i am not neutral ,but here is an answer anyway..as brief as it can be

the name issue is used as a vehicle for the irredentist propaganda of a candidate NATO member (FYROM) against a member of NATO (Greece)

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7110/megalhmakedoniaik7.jpg
(PM of FYROM Gruevksi honoring the monument on FYROMs national Hero Goce Delcev -note the map on the monument ,it depicts their claims half of Greece including the Greek province of Macedonia is in it)

we are being way too soft on this


Soft ?

One picture (at least 6 time posted on this forum..... does it means you don't have any kind of other proofs or any other kind of pictures that this special one) and you are almost ready to take the guns

OK I agree it is not a very intelligent thing
But a veto to EU or NATO entering do you thinl it is very smart ?
Or mobs burning Macedonians flags, drawning them with beer or stomping on it as I have seeing some years ago (but of course this was normal...)

Stop the double standard. Nationalistic behaviour is silly from either side and you will have in both countries. But do not do as you were the pure innocent ones and the others the only devil
To start a fight you always need to be two ....

[chris450]

i can post various pages of their school books ,they even printed a banknote in the early 90s with a picture of the White tower of Thessaloniki on it

the tower being the landmark of the 2nd largest Greek city...its like putting the damn Parthenon on their banknotes

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6748/banknotewx9.jpg

its no news really ,we're used to that kind of shyt,i dont expect outsiders to know this stuff ,our FM is sleeping

PS this pic is the latest one ,thats why you see it often


you can talk about double standards and nationalistic behaviour the moment you see Greeks making official claims on their lands...until then you remark is a hollow one..unless you want to tell me you wouldnt feel offended if a neighbouring country printed bills with the Eiffel tower and claimed it as their own

[Peris]

Mmmmm......To whom?



here is a fyrom(?) link confirming the proposal:


SECURITY COUNCIL COMMENDS PROPOSAL BY CO-CHAIRMEN VANCE AND
OWEN ON NAME


With respect to the name to be used by the former Yugoslav
Republic of Macedonia, the position of the two parties was far
apart, according to the report. The Greek delegation believed
that the other party should not use a name that included the word
"Macedonia", suggesting instead "Slavomacedonia". The delegation
of the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia preferred that the
name used for all purposes be that which was set out in its
Constitution: "The Republic of Macedonia". It was, however,
prepared to discuss the modalities of the use of a name for
international purposes only.


http://www.b-info.com/places/Macedonia/republic/news/301-400/378.6

[Raven_gr]

Ho Yes ....

One more thread with users from both side that use and re-use arguments 20 years old .....

Listen, everybody being Greeks or macedonian
I will repeat it one more time

Both sides are wrong by pushing nationalism in the heads of their own people which make the further discussion not possible

Look at that thread
One more time there is a drawn line between Greeks and Macedonians and everybody is staying on its own side

Now what legitimate a name and what is the definition of a state

What legitimate a name of a country is the history, the people who live here and the geography
from a people point of view I agree that the name Macedonia belongs to Greece
Now from a Geopgraphic point of view at least in the south of Macedonia/FYROM, the name is deserved

And in a historical point of view the ancient Hellenistic/Greek/Alexander Macedonia is now the same name region of Greece
But the Roman Empire province of the same name convers also the FYROM/Macedonia state

Now let's say who deserve to keep this name or use it ?
Tell me
And more tell me why now it bothers Greece whereas it was not the case before 1991 (I have personnaly seeing markets on the Greek's border with "special popus za Makedonzi" which means special price lowering for macedonians written in slavish language) or why the Bulgarian Makedonia region is not then an issue

Anyway Greeks are not the only guilty, the Macedonian nationalists played with fire; However as I said on the other topic, the country that hurts the other the most is Greece vs Macedonia not the reverse
Do not allowing them to enter NATO is a restriction for their security
Do not allowing them to enter EU is a restriction for their economy

Who is playing the most bad guy here ?

That's a pity because both countries could have a profitable way of living one near the other instead of continuous bashing and flaming

I can see your point and that is why Greece is proposing the geographical term in the name. We have taken a step back. We don't threaten anyone and we will lift any objections after a settlement, but to think we should back down hands down on something so sensitive is like flirting with disaster. It is more than national pride and cheap nationalistic talk. It is in part an effort do defuse tensions and pretexts for conflict in the decades and even centuries to come. Why should we fuel bogus absurd claims on the, as you also claim, very fabric of both our being as a people and as a state. It would be like denying what we are and what our legacy is. We have come a long way and have survived wars and calamities and built what little shadow of past grandure you witness today on the basis of what was writen in history with blood and spirit. That is what we try to defend.

[alvarhanso]

Now you are comparing our policies to those of Milosevic...WOW...
Do you see any Greek tanks on your doorstep, or Greek Fighters on your skies?
Sad, sad post



We don't expect you do give in to anything, we are asking you to seek a comprimise on the issue through dialogue. We are not putting a gun on your head.

I said Greece was sympathetic to the Milosevic regime, i did NOT compare Greece with his regime... it seems to me you hear what you want and then draw conclusions.
You do not expect us to give in into anything... and yet you want US to change OUR historical legacy just because YOU want to.... now... does that sound realistic, or even sane to you???
YOU are not putting a gun to our had??? And the treats that are occurring daily in your media and by your politicians are what?
What would you call a veto against a country who wants to be a part of something... and in troublesam times when that country needs that??

[alvarhanso]

It would be like denying what we are and what our legacy is. We have come a long way and have survived wars and calamities and built what little shadow of past grandure you witness today on the basis of what was writen in history with blood and spirit. That is what we try to defend.

I couldn't put that better myself. But.. from my point of view.

[PR0L0gic]

Abstract:

Legislation to stop state-sponsored propaganda by FYROM (Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia), which is potentially dangerous for Greece, was introduced in the U.S. Senate by Senators Bob Menendez (D-NJ) and Olympia Snowe (R-ME), along with Presidential candidate and Chairman of the European Affairs Subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Senator Barack Obama (D-IL).

More than 72 Members of Congress and climbing are sponsoring similar legislation (HR 356) in the House of Representatives.

The Resolution (S.Res. 300 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.Res.300:)) points to a television report showing students in a FYROM state-run school being taught that parts of Greece, including Greek Macedonia, are rightfully parts of FYROM. The legislation also points to various recently-published textbooks which contain maps of ‘Greater Macedonia’ extending many miles into Greece and Bulgaria. The Resolution points out that FYROM propaganda, contrary to the U. N. Interim Accord, instills hostility and a rationale of irredentism in portions of the population of FYROM toward Greece and the history of Greece.

The legislation urges FYROM to adhere to the U.N. brokered Interim Agreement, which directs the parties to “promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by state-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility” and review the content of textbooks, maps, and teaching aids to ensure that such tools are stating accurate information. The bill also urges FYROM to work with Greece within the U.N. framework process to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals by reaching a mutually acceptable official name for FYROM.




110th CONGRESS 1st Session S. RES. 300 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.Res.300:)


Expressing the sense of the Senate that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between FYROM and Greece regarding `hostile activities or propaganda' and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
August 3, 2007


Mr. MENENDEZ (for himself, Ms. SNOWE, and Mr. OBAMA) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations


RESOLUTION


Expressing the sense of the Senate that the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) should stop the utilization of materials that violate provisions of the United Nations-brokered Interim Agreement between FYROM and Greece regarding `hostile activities or propaganda' and should work with the United Nations and Greece to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals of finding a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM.

Whereas, on April 8, 1993, the United Nations General Assembly admitted as a member the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), under the name the `Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia';

Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 817 (1993) states that the dispute over the name must be resolved to maintain peaceful relations between Greece and FYROM;

Whereas, on September 13, 1995, Greece and FYROM signed a United Nations-brokered Interim Accord that, among other things, commits them to not `support claims to any part of the territory of the other party or claims for a change of their existing frontiers';

Whereas a pre-eminent goal of the United Nations Interim Accord was to stop FYROM from utilizing, since its admittance to the United Nations in 1993, what the Accord calls `propaganda', including in school textbooks;

Whereas a television report in recent years showed students in a state-run school in FYROM still being taught that parts of Greece, including Greek Macedonia, are rightfully part of FYROM;

Whereas some textbooks, including the Military Academy textbook published in 2004 by the Military Academy `General Mihailo Apostolski' in the FYROM capital city, contain maps showing that a `Greater Macedonia' extends many miles south into Greece to Mount Olympus and miles east to Mount Pirin in Bulgaria;

Whereas, in direct contradiction of the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord's section `A', entitled `Friendly Relations and Confidence Building Measures', which attempts to eliminate challenges regarding `historic and cultural patrimony', the Government of FYROM recently renamed the capital city's international airport `Alexander the Great Airport';

Whereas the aforementioned acts constitute a breach of FYROM's international obligations deriving from the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord, which provide that FYROM should abstain from any form of `propaganda' against Greece's historical or cultural heritage;

Whereas such acts are not compatible with Article 10 of the United Nations Interim Accord, which calls for `improving understanding and good neighbourly relations', as well as with European standards and values endorsed by European Union member-states; and

Whereas this information, like that exposed in the media report and elsewhere, being used contrary to the United Nations Interim Accord instills hostility and a rationale for irredentism in portions of the population of FYROM toward Greece and the history of Greece: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the Senate--

(1) urges the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to observe its obligations under Article 7 of the 1995 United Nations-brokered Interim Accord, which directs the parties to `promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by state-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility' and review the contents of textbooks, maps, and teaching aids to ensure that such tools are stating accurate information; and

(2) urges FYROM to work with Greece within the framework of the United Nations process to achieve longstanding United States and United Nations policy goals by reaching a mutually-acceptable official name for FYROM
Check this (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129859) for more info on the Macedonian issue (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=129859)

A small “intro” taken from a History Channels’ documentary (http://youtube.com/watch?v=D1j4U79eBMo)

[alvarhanso]

Let me ask you one thing... what has Greece done so far in the name debate?
What are the back steps that your country has done... what are the compromises by the Gr. side?
I don't know of any....So far it's been... you should do that, you should do this.... hardly compromising politics.

[Mordoror]

and yet you want US to change OUR historical legacy just because YOU want to

Sorry but even being from Macedonian origin I can not agree with that....It is too unilateral one way seeing


YOU are not putting a gun to our had??? And the treats that are occurring daily in your media and by your politicians are what?
What would you call a veto against a country who wants to be a part of something... and in troublesam times when that country needs that??



However this is a BIG part of the issue.... it is not directly putting a gun on the heads but it is almost the same thing
As I said before....restricting the security access and economy access by a veto will lead only to much more hate than both people deserve

[chris450]

Sorry but even being from Macedonian origin I can not agree with that....It is too unilateral one way seeing


ho ho ho ,scrap my Eifel tower comment :grin:

[Peris]

I said Greece was sympathetic to the Milosevic regime,



we were sympathetic to you too. Do you remember the 10 Leonidas APCs we gave you?

[alvarhanso]

Sorry but even being from Macedonian origin I can not agree with that....It is too unilateral one way seeing



However this is a BIG part of the issue.... it is not directly putting a gun on the heads but it is almost the same thing
As I said before....restricting the security access and economy access by a veto will lead only to much more hate than both people deserve

You except the Gr. points of view and not the Macedonian ones... hmmmm... how's this unilateral??
However, i agree with the later, restricting the security and economy access will lead to hatred (which, by the way is in red zone already)

[Raven_gr]

We don't deny you have a history, we only consider it upsurd that you even think you could even remotely have anything to do with ancient Macedonia. There is the main grievance. The geographic epithet, the agreement to use the term Macedonia as a geographic factor in the name was us stepping back, but there is where we draw a red line. No further

[Peris]

You are making this a territorial issue again. And it's not. nobody wants your villages. But if it's a good place to hide your irredentism... go ahead.


our irredentism?:roll: pls explain

[Peris]

i can post various pages of their school books ,they even printed a banknote in the early 90s with a picture of the White tower of Thessaloniki on it

the tower being the landmark of the 2nd largest Greek city...its like putting the damn Parthenon on their banknotes

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6748/banknotewx9.jpg

its no news really ,we're used to that kind of shyt,i dont expect outsiders to know this stuff ,our FM is sleeping

PS this pic is the latest one ,thats why you see it often


you can talk about double standards and nationalistic behaviour the moment you see Greeks making official claims on their lands...until then you remark is a hollow one..unless you want to tell me you wouldnt feel offended if a neighbouring country printed bills with the Eiffel tower and claimed it as their own




i would really like to see a fyromian answer to this banknote.

[alvarhanso]

our irredentism?:roll: pls explain

"OTHER CENTRES OF MACEDONIAN HELLENISM
Throughout that thousand-year period Macedonia, along with other centres - Philippi, Serres, Melenikon and Stromnitsa to the east, Veria, Kastoria, Servia, Heraclea and Ochrid to the west, and Prilep and Velesa etc. to the north - was the powerful lungs of the Greek Empire of Byzantium."

"THE WHOLE OF MACEDONIA IN GREECE
In 1867 the Serbs fought alongside the Greeks with the aim of liberating all the Christians in the Balkans. It was agreed that,if the Serbs gained Old Serbia, the whole of Macedonia would devolve to Greece."


"In the autumn of 1912, after a period of servitude that had lasted five centuries, Macedonia was liberated. Just at that moment the Serbs managed to seize Northern Macedonia, taking in the thorougly Greek Monastiri, Ochrid, Krusovo, Morihovo, Gevgheli, Doirani and Stromnitsa..."

http://www.macedonia.com/english/history/hellenism/

Also, this video is speaks volumes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oHivXjiX_w

[Paya]

In Serbian history and geography books, the greater region of Macedonia is composed of Egean Macedonia (Greek part), Pirin Macedonia (Bulgarian part) and Vardar Macedonia (FYROM).

Now, as fond of Makedonci (and I do hope this term doesn't offend anyone) I am, in my opinion, the name Republic of Macedonia implies territorial claims on the whole Macedonian geographical region. I wonder if the name Republic of Vardar Macedonia would satisfy both sides?

[Bongopete]

I agree that state sponsored 'hate mongering' is counterproductive to peace and stability. But getting someone to stop it, I dont see how. :-(

[alvarhanso]

i would really like to see a fyromian answer to this banknote.

If you ask a fyromian am sure he could tell you, however since i don't know any...i can't help you.

But... if you are interested in Macedonian banknotes... here, have a look.

http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/default-MK.asp?ItemID=5ECD92B2AE5A054BBF800B994CCA68E5

[chris450]

they had enough time to talk and negotiate the last 15 years...talks are over

the adoption of an irredentist name and flag by FYROM are hostile and provocative acts designed to establish future claims on Greek Macedonia..and they will be treated as such,as they wont be invited to NATO in April



"A major campaign will soon be underway to inform the rest of the
Balkans about the truth concerning the sections of the Macedonian
people in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria who were divided and ENSLAVED
after the Balkan Wars. The leading Macedonian nationalist parties,
in their desire to see a larger Macedonia, made no secret of their
intention to bring these territories back within the sovereign state,
and do not hide their determination that it is only a matter of days
before the power of Macedonia redraws the borders of Bulgaria, Greece
and Serbia."

(Kiro Gligorov, interview in the
periodical Nin, Feb. 1, 1991)

[alvarhanso]

In Serbian history and geography books, the greater region of Macedonia is composed of Egean Macedonia (Greek part), Pirin Macedonia (Bulgarian part) and Vardar Macedonia (FYROM).

Now, as fond of Makedonci (and I do hope this term doesn't offend anyone) I am, in my opinion, the name Republic of Macedonia implies territorial claims on the whole Macedonian geographical region. I wonder if the name Republic of Vardar Macedonia would satisfy both sides?

That said by a citizen of a country which had "Greater state" ideas (still has) just a couple years ago.
By backing up the sides which are loosing.... Serebia managed to become a country that is loosing parts... well, almost on a daily bases.
I wonder when will Belgrade proclame it's independence?

[TurpoUrpo]

That is what i would like to hear also. If there is no nationalistic ambitions of greater Macedonia in FYROM. Why is it not possible for them to accept name that implies FYROMs geographical location thus dismissing all possible demands on Greek Macedonia?

Would not Vardar Macedonia or Upper Macedonia (or similar) suffice. As it is clear that FYROM does not represent whole geographical area of Macedonia.

[TurpoUrpo]

That said by a citizen of a country which had "Greater state" ideas (still has) just a couple years ago.
By backing up the sides which are loosing.... Serebia managed to become a country that is loosing parts... well, almost on a daily bases.
I wonder when will Belgrade proclame it's independence?

But why are you stating something totally irrelevant and dodging question with that and not answering it?

[Raven_gr]

That is what i would like to hear also. If there is no nationalistic ambitions of greater Macedonia in FYROM. Why is it not possible for them to accept name that implies FYROMs geographical location thus dismissing all possible demands on Greek Macedonia?

Would not Vardar Macedonia or Upper Macedonia (or similar) suffice.

That is what we are saying!!!
Is that so illogical?

[Paya]

That said by a citizen of a country which had "Greater state" ideas (still has) just a couple years ago.
By backing up the sides which are loosing.... Serebia managed to become a country that is loosing parts... well, almost on a daily bases.
I wonder when will Belgrade proclame it's independence?
That was... uncalled for. I merely offered a proposal, which by the way you didn't adress.

[alvarhanso]

But why are you stating something totally irrelevant and dodging question with that and not answering it?

Ok. I'll try dodging by asking you this. How do you fill about Karelia?

[TurpoUrpo]

If you ask a fyromian am sure he could tell you, however since i don't know any...i can't help you.

But... if you are interested in Macedonian banknotes... here, have a look.

http://www.nbrm.gov.mk/default-MK.asp?ItemID=5ECD92B2AE5A054BBF800B994CCA68E5


That page shows only banknotes from 1996 onwards. What about older ones?

[alvarhanso]

That was... uncalled for. I merely offered a proposal, which by the way you didn't adress.

It wasn't!? Well, as far as i know, Serbia recognizes Macedonia under it's constitutional name. So next time you wish to address my country, do so by sticking to your official state politics.

[alvarhanso]

That page shows only banknotes from 1996 onwards. What about older ones?

i'll tell them to update their site. Sorry.
But... if it makes your day, i have never, ever seen such banknotes. Anybody can design a banknote, it's not that hard.
As for the one posted previously... it's a fake.

[TurpoUrpo]

Ok. I'll try dodging by asking you this. How do you fill about Karelia?

It is totally irrelevant, that issue is not anything like this we are talking in this thread.

Why do you want derail this thread, usually that happens when you dont have any arguments anymore?

[Paya]

It wasn't!? Well, as far as i know, Serbia recognizes Macedonia under it's constitutional name. So next time you wish to address my country, do so by sticking to your official state politics.
You might have noticed that our political leaders are morons, and have been for the last 20 or so years.

Again, I had no intention to offend anyone, and if I have I apologize. The question remains, though. Would the name Vardar Macedonia (Vardarska Makedonija) be acceptable?

[alvarhanso]

It is totally irrelevant, that issue is not anything like this we are talking in this thread.

Why do you want derail this thread, usually that happens when you dont have any arguments anymore?

It seems that you are trying to dodge the answer this time.
And i'll tell how it's relevant. Karelia region belongs to Russia now, the same as Eagean Macedonia belongs to Greece now. It was part of Macedonia ones (under Ottoman rule) and it was anected to Greece after the Balkan wars.

[alvarhanso]

You might have noticed that our political leaders are morons, and have been for the last 20 or so years.

Again, I had no intention to offend anyone, and if I have I apologize. The question remains, though. Would the name Vardar Macedonia (Vardarska Makedonija) be acceptable?

To put it simply.... No, it wouldn't. Would New Serbia, Dunav or Sava Serbia be acceptable to you?

[Paya]

To put it simply.... No, it wouldn't. Would New Serbia, Dunav or Sava Serbia be acceptable to you?
Aha, so if I'm getting this straight, you don't think that Macedonia is a geographical term, but rather a name of a nation-state, like Serbia? Macedonia-the home of the Macedonians (nation)?

[Raven_gr]

I think with your posts, alvarhanso, you imply that the, as you call it, the Aegean Macedonia is FYROMian territory. I really hope tht is not the case.

[phoebus]

Interesting to see Barack Obama backing that legislation. Sounds promising, but I'm somehow sure he'll probably alter his stance once and if he becomes President of USA.

[alvarhanso]

I think with your posts, alvarhanso, you imply that the, as you call it, the Aegean Macedonia is FYROMian territory. I really hope tht is not the case.

Was Macedonian territory.... check out the map which someone posted... the one with Macedonian PM.
But.. that's history, and there's no going back.

[chris450]

thanks for proving my point

[alvarhanso]

You're welcome.
We have again derailed from the topic, which is unfortunate... i wanted to hear your opinions on the subject.
However, i don't think that's possible.

Interesting story in the Macedonian media today... Greek soldiers in the ISAF mission refused to eat musaka which was prepared by Macedonian cooks in the camp. What does that say to you? Surely they can't be that bad cooks?

[phoebus]

Aha, so if I'm getting this straight, you don't think that Macedonia is a geographical term, but rather a name of a nation-state, like Serbia? Macedonia-the home of the Macedonians (nation)?

Don't even bother mate.

That country, FYROM, is a dangerous ethnic mish-mash (aka "mini Yugoslavia" or "silent Bosnia") of Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Hellenes, Hellenovlachs, Turks, Roma, etc. A minority of them plus their fragile regimes tend to support this unfounded pseudo-nationalist agenda, because simply without it they'd have little reason for existance. The later is externally subsidised at the moment as a counter balance to a Greater Albania (a "boxing sand-bag" if you want). It's really sad for them and more importantly for their children's future, as it was for the 90's generations in the Balkans.

Yugoslavia was a really bad experiment and it's times like these that makes me feel good and safe that I live in Hellas, proud of our Athenian, Spartan, Macedonian and the rest of our Hellenic, National heritage. A mere million of confused people or a fragile political regime (coupled with opportunist foreign recongision) is not enough to change the facts. :)

[TurpoUrpo]

It seems that you are trying to dodge the answer this time.
And i'll tell how it's relevant. Karelia region belongs to Russia now, the same as Eagean Macedonia belongs to Greece now. It was part of Macedonia ones (under Ottoman rule) and it was anected to Greece after the Balkan wars.

Ill answer like this, It would be similar if Finlands name would be Karelia would'n it. In that case states name would imply demands on Russias territory wouldn't it? And i don't believe that Russia would accept that anymore than Greece is accepting this. West Karelia would be acceptable, as it would imply that state would not have any demands on Russias territory.

[TurpoUrpo]

You're welcome.
We have again derailed from the topic, which is unfortunate... i wanted to hear your opinions on the subject.
However, i don't think that's possible.

Interesting story in the Macedonian media today... Greek soldiers in the ISAF mission refused to eat musaka which was prepared by Macedonian cooks in the camp. What does that say to you? Surely they can't be that bad cooks?

Did you not notice that it was you who derailed this thread? And it was you who did not give opinions based on facts.

[Paya]

Well, I wish the best for both sides, hope that they'll come to an agreement, and think it best for other states not to interfere.

In light of that, I'm just going to listen to my own advice and back off.

[alvarhanso]

Did you not notice that it was you who derailed this thread? And it was you who did not give opinions based on facts.

You obviously did not read my previous posts and the links i send.
The tread is called: Athens Braces for US Pressure Over FYROM, and you ask me about banknotes??

[chris450]

As for the one posted previously... it's a fake.

these banknotes were released right after proclaiming independance and were withdrawn after a strong Greek protest

abstract from:
The New York Times February 3, 1992
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE0DD103CF930A35751C0A964958260
As Republic Flexes, Greeks Tense Up
........


"Look at this! It's hideous!" said Ioannis Tsaluhidis, offering a map of "independent Macedonia" with a seal describing it as having been published by the Macedonian National Liberation Army. On the map, the envisioned nation includes slices of eastern Albania and southwestern Bulgaria. and a quarter of mainland Greece. Other pamphlets describe Macedonia as a nation "partitioned by force" that remains largely under foreign occupation, the only liberated part being in Yugoslavia.
"These are part of a hundred provocations," said Mr. Tsaluhidis, secretary general of the Ministry for Northern Greece at Salonika. "They arrive in the mail. They are left in the streets at night."
Almost daily, he said, radio broadcasts coming from Skopje, the capital of Yugoslav Macedonia, call on Macedonians "to unify the country" and to help free the millions of "oppressed" Macedonians in Greece.
One bit of propaganda proved explosive last month when copies appeared of what looked like Yugoslav Macedonia's future currency. The bills featured the 15th-century White Tower of Salonika, prompting outrage in Athens and here in the capital of Greek Macedonia.
Travelers returning from Skopje say the slogan "Solun is ours," referring to Salonika by its Macedonian name, has begun appearing in graffiti on walls in that city.
"This is unacceptable," said Evgenia Koukouri, a historian. "The White Tower is to Salonika what the Acropolis is to Athens. And they call us Solun, a Slavic name. They say, 'Solun is ours.' Unthinkable."
do you still think its a fake?

[Raven_gr]

alvarhanso it is really sad to see the crap you believe in. You are implying we stole this land from you? Dude this is our home for more than 3000 years. You have made right all our justifications on opposing your propaganda and hate.

Have these phrases from my country's wisdom to guide you if you chose to come out of your hate and ignorance

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance” Socrates

False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil.
Socrates

[TurpoUrpo]

You obviously did not read my previous posts and the links i send.
The tread is called: Athens Braces for US Pressure Over FYROM, and you ask me about banknotes??

Banknotes were relevant in context as they would imply FYROMs greater state ambitions if their banknote would have picture of white tower on it, wouldn't it?

[alvarhanso]

I could make a banknote if i wanted in an hour, would that prove something!?
It could have easily be Greek propaganda... printing notes that depicted the white tower on Macedonian currency, couldn't it?
I have not seen such money... ever, and thats what counts. You can believe me ore not... youre choice.

[alvarhanso]

And the resolution is dated August 3, 2007. How is this today's news?

[chris450]

The weather ala FYROMiana ,every Skops wet dream! :grin:

any resemblance to the map we saw on the monument is purely coincidental..evening news MPT channel

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9316/skopjanforecastdf4.jpg

[alvarhanso]

Something more recent....

Expressing the strong support of the Senate for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to extend invitations for membership to Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia at the April 2008 Bucharest... (Introduced in Senate)
SRES 459 IS
110th CONGRESS 2d Session S. RES. 459
Expressing the strong support of the Senate for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to extend invitations for membership to Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia at the April 2008 Bucharest Summit, and for other purposes.
IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
February 25, 2008

Mr. LUGAR (for himself and Mr. VOINOVICH) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations
RESOLUTION
Expressing the strong support of the Senate for the North Atlantic Treaty Organization to extend invitations for membership to Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia at the April 2008 Bucharest Summit, and for other purposes.
Whereas the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) will hold a Heads of State and Government summit at Bucharest, Romania in April 2008;
Whereas NATO has successfully defended the territory and interests of its members for more than 50 years and contributed to the spread of freedom, democracy, stability, and peace throughout Europe;
Whereas Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia have been preparing for NATO membership for more than 8 years and are undergoing a historic process of democratic and free market transformation after emerging from decades of occupation;
Whereas Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia have made important progress toward establishing civilian control of their militaries and demonstrating their ability to operate with the military forces of NATO nations at Alliance standards;
Whereas Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia continue to make important contributions to the United Nations-mandated International Security Assistance Force, operating under NATO leadership to assist the Government of Afghanistan in extending and exercising its authority and influence throughout Afghanistan, creating the conditions for stabilization and reconstruction;
Whereas Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia have made important improvements in their democratic processes, including--
(1) embracing ethnic diversity;
(2) respecting human rights;
(3) building a free market economy; and
(4) promoting good neighborly relations;
Whereas NATO conducted military operations against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to further the objective of a lasting peace in Kosovo;
Whereas the United States has diplomatically recognized the independence of Kosovo and should support the integration of Kosovo into international and Euro-Atlantic institutions;
Whereas lasting stability and security in Southeastern Europe requires the military, economic, and political integration of emerging democracies into existing European structures;
Whereas Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia can play important roles in NATO activities in Southeastern Europe, through their unique geostrategic position and by deterring and disrupting any efforts by any party to destabilize the region through violence;
Whereas Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty, done in Washington on April 4, 1949, states: `any other European state in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area' may be granted NATO membership; and
Whereas the Riga Summit Declaration, issued by NATO in November 2006, reaffirms that `NATO remains open to new European members': Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That it is the sense of the Senate that-- (1) the political independence and territorial integrity of the emerging democracies in Southeastern Europe are vital to European peace and security and to the interests of the United States; (2) the expansion of NATO contributes to the Alliance's continued effectiveness and relevance; (3) the Senate reaffirms its support for continued enlargement of NATO to include qualified candidates; and (4) the United States should take the lead in supporting the awarding of invitations to Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia to join the Alliance at the NATO Summit at Bucharest, Romania in April 2008.

[PR0L0gic]

Dear Bongopete (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=48799),

The “S. RES. 300 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.Res.300:)” U.S. Senate RESOLUTION is yet another independent argument that I can use as a Greek to convince the international community about my point of view on the Macedonian issue without the danger of been called a scenic nationalists.

Because most people don’t understand the passion the Greeks show in order to dismiss the historical lies that conform the propaganda of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia in order to claim the history and the name of ancient Macedonia in a way that raises territorial claims against Greece.

If we wanted to “destroy” the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, that could be done easily without even the use of any military force, just by withdrawing the Greek Businesses and Investors who are the most significant economic growth factor in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

So, as Greeks we are on favour of peace and stability and we work towards that direction, we might be a regional economic power in the Balkan Peninsula but we don’t want to dictate over anyone by the use of “economic diplomacy”.

If we had a nationalistic attitude like other Balkan States have, we must have claimed territories starting from Spain, Italy, the Middle East, and up to the Black Sea claiming that they were parts of the Hellenistic World.

We don’t do that, because we accept the fact that populations evolve and migrate. We just want our neighbouring countries to respect the current territorial status and the national heritage of our country, that’s all we ask.

It’s ridiculous to patronize a rock because you had a pee on that rock, that’s what animals do, not modern States.

So if anyone of you wishes to stop FYROMs propaganda and the ABUSE of ancient Macedonia heritage by a nation-less state (that is a mixture of Bulgarians, Albanians, Turks, Greeks, Serbs and others) make it public that YOU support (http://apps.facebook.com/causes/view_cause/65250)Greece (http://apps.facebook.com/causes/view_cause/65250) on the Macedonian issue (http://apps.facebook.com/causes/view_cause/65250)!

Manny thanks!


-------------------------


phoebus (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=18822): we have to ensure his support prior the elections, it’s a very promising step though, he can’t refuse a resolution he suggested in the U.S. Senate.


-------------------------


Dear alvarhanso (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=32754),

I corrected the “today” part, it was a mistyping… my intention is not to mislead.

FACT 1: The S. RES. 300 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3085461&postcount=1) is a resolution of the U.S. Senate AGAINST the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia and the hostile and irredentist propaganda you use against Greece and Greek history!

FACT 2: The S. RES. 459 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3085736&postcount=5) DOSE NOT condemn Greece in any form!

It just uses falsely your constitutional name (old news) and is the perfect proof that you are a satellite State of the U.S. interests at this time and the U.S. dose it’s outmost to keep you in one piece.

Until of course U.S. foreign policy changes and will “disband” your state for the sake of “Great Albania”...

Cheers!

[alvarhanso]

"Macedonia is a Greek Land"
Greek claim 1

There is nothing in the ancient literature to suggest that ancient Macedonia was a Greek land. On the contrary, the ancient authors knew the difference between the Greek city-states and the kingdom of Macedon. Ancient and modern authors report:
[1] "While Demosthenes was still in exile, Alexander died in Babylon, and the Greek states combined yet again to form a league against Macedon. Demosthenes attached himself to the Athenian convoys, and threw all his energies into helping them incite the various states to attack the Macedonians and drive them out of Greece." [p.212] Plutarch, 'The Age of Alexander' [Plutarch here specifically distinguishes Greece from Macedonia.]
[2] M.Cary in his book "The Geographic background of Greek and Roman History" (ICBN 0-313-23187-7) I find the following constituent parts of Greece: Epirus, Acarnania, The Ionian Isles, Aetolia, Thessaly, The Spercheu Valley, Locris, Phocis, Boeotia, Euboea, Attica, Aegina, Corinth, Achaea, Elis, Arcadia, Argolis, Laconia, Messenia, The Greek Archipelago, Crete, The Outer Isles, The Northern Aegean, The East Aegean, Rhodes, .......... and of course, No Macedonia. Why M. Cary would omit Macedonia from the general description of Greece? Perhaps for the same reason the German classical scholar Bursian failed to include Macedonia in his otherwise comprehensive geographical survey of Greece "Geographie von Griechenland". Macedonia was simply different country then Greece.
[3] On p. 91 in "Hellenistic World" by F.W.Walbank we find: "It is necessary, in any assessment of the role of Macedonia in the hellenistic world to bear in mind that although our sources naturally, being Greek or based on Greek writers, lay their emphasis on Macedonian policy towards Greece, Macedonia was in fact equally a Balkan power for which the northern, western and north-eastern frontiers were always vital and for which strong defenses and periodic punitive expeditions over the border were fundamental policy." ".... Macedonians were an essential bulwark to the north of Greece". [Self-explanatory]
[4] In N.G.L.Hammond's book "The Macedonian State" on p. 141 states: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions." [The operative word is "foreigners-especially Greeks", which shows that even Hammond forgets to tow the line.]
[5] In "Makedonika" by Eugene Borza on p. 164 we read: "Alexander seem to have imported troupes of performers from Greece." [One does not import from his own country, does he?]
[6] Plutarch "The Age of Alexander" "Thebans countered by demanding the surrender of Philotas and Antipater and appealing to all who wished to liberate Greece to range themselves on their side, and at this Alexander ordered his troops to prepare for battle." [p.264]
[7] Quintus Rufus "The History of Alexander" Alexander, in a letter, responds to Darius: "His Majesty Alexander to Darius: Greetings. The Darius whose name you have assumed wrought utter destruction upon the Greek inhabitants of the Hellespontine coast and upon the Greek colonies of Ionia, and then crossed the sea with a mighty army, bringing the war to Macedonia and Greece." [p.50-1]
[8] Arrian "The Compaigns of Alexander" Alexander speaking to his officers: ".......But let me remind you: Through your courage and endurance you have gained possession of Ionia, the Hellespont, both Phrygias, Cappadocia, Paphlagonia, Lydia, Caria, Lycia, Pamphylia, Phoenicia and Egypt; the Greek part of Libya is now yours, together with much of Arabia, lowland Syria, Mesopotamia, Babylon, and Susia;........." [p.292] ["The Greek part of Libya is now yours", Alexander and the Macedonians conquer the Greek part of Libya.]
[9] "Only in Thessaly and Boetia, and outside Greece, in Macedonia, was there cavalry worthy of the name."
[10] "The Peloponnesian War was a fratricidal war among the Greeks, a fact that was not altered by the intervention of foreign powers, Macedonia, for instance and later the Persian Empire."
Point of Interest: "a fratricidal war among the Greeks", and "of foreign powers, Macedonia and Persia." Macedonia and Persia clearly painted as non-Greek foreign lands? Ancient and modern scholars alike seem to know much more than today's modern Greeks. [Excerpts taken from The Greeks and Persians, from the sixth to the fourth centuries; edited by Hermann Bengston; published by Delacorte Press, New York.]
[11] This passage is taken from "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic World" By Pierre Jouguet p.179
"After crossing the Spercheios and ravaging the territory of Heracleia, which he could not take, he marched on Thermopylae. The pass was defended. The peoples of Northern Greece -Locrians, Phocians, Megarians, Boeotians, Athenians- had sent their contingents, the largest being that of Aetolians. Antigonos Gonatas and Antiochos had furnished 500 hoplites each."
The term "Northern Greece" does not include Macedonia. Needless to say, Macedonia lay north of northern Greece and it was never a Greek land.
[12] "His death (Pyrrhos) delivered Antigonos from a great danger. He readily recognized Alexander, Pyrrhos' son, as King of Epeiros. He remained master of Macedon and Greece (272). He placed garrisons in Corinth, the Peiraeus, and Chalcis, and tyrants in many cities, such as Argos, Elis, and Sicyon. So, about 270, a great power was constituted, which had all the resources of Macedon and Greece at its disposal, but had a weakness in the impatience with which the Hellenes supported the yoke." ibid p.181-2 [Pierre Jouguet's book]
a) "He remained master of Macedon and Greece." (272). If Macedonia was a 'Greek land', there would be one identifier in this sentence and not two.
b) "but had a weakness in the impatience with which the Hellenes supported the yoke." Hellenes (Greeks) supporting the yoke? And whose yoke were the Hellenes supporting? The Macedonian, of course. The Hellenes, collectively were enslaved by the Macedonians.
[13] The Geographic Background of Greek and Roman History by M.Cary, D.Litt. Oxon Formerly professor of Ancient History at the University of London. On p.303 we find the following description of the Macedonians:
"Morever, the central position of Macedonia, which exposed it to converging onslaughts in times of weakness, gave it the opportunity of quick counter-thrust from inner lines. Thus from the time of Philip II to the coming of the Romans we find its kings laying about them in all directions-eastward across mount Rhodope into the Hebrus valley, where Philip II established Philoppopolis (Plovdiv) as a bridgehead, northward across the Balkan range to the Danube (Alexander in 335 B.C.), and westward to the Albanian coast (Cassander in 314 B.C.). The lure of Greece and Asia, it is true, diverted Macedonian energies into other objects and reduced attempts at expansion in the Balkan Lands to spasmodic and uncoordinated thrusts. A more systemic policy of 'fanning out', such as the Romans carried out under similar geographic conditions in Italy, might have enable the rulers of Macedon to establish a pax Balkanica."
Now, another compelling reason to dismiss the Greek propaganda as absurd and provocative and they claim that Macedonia was a Greek land. M. Cary does not even include Macedonia in his otherwise extensive and detailed description of Greece. Macedonia is included in the Balkan Lands, together with Thrace.
The lure of Greece and Asia, it is true, diverted Macedonian energies into other objects and reduced attempts at expansion in the Balkan Lands to spasmodic and uncoordinated thrusts. In other words, if Macedonia did not get entangled into the Greek scheme of things, Macedonia could have had pax Balkanica.
[14] Jean Pierre Vernant - "The Greeks" "Athens also imported wood for shipbuilding, wood that for the most part came from northern Greece and from Macedonia." [p.43]
[15] Richard Stoneman - "Alexander the Great" "Alexander the Great was born in summer 356 BC and died thirty-three years later in the month of Daisios (June) 323 BC. He was born the son of Philip, the King of Macedon, a fertile and predominantly pastoral region lying north of classical Greece;" [p.1]
The uncomfortable fact still remains: There is nothing Greek or Hellenic with the ancient Macedonians. Ancient Macedonians enslaved the Hellenes, and Macedon is not part of Greece. The conclusion is inescapable - Ancient Macedonians were distinct and separate ethnicity from the ancient Greeks.

[alvarhanso]

"Ancient Macedonians were Greeks"
Greek claim 2

In antiquity the two most antagonistic people were the ancient Macedonians and the ancient Greeks. Their animosity was racially motivated. Here are the proofs that the ancient Macedonians could not have been Greek:
[1] On p. 180 in Agnes Savil's book "Alexander the Great and his Time" we find: "For a time Hellenism revived when Demetrius of Bactria, half Macedonian, half Greek, tried in 187 B.C. to reclaim the Indian empire of Alexander."
Now, how do we deal with this quote? Should we assume that there is a such person who is half Greek and half Greek? Or better yet, do we assume that perhaps there is a such person who could be half Athenian and half Greek? Did they not equate the terms "Athenians", "Thessalians", "Macedonians" to mean one and the same? Common logic dictates that there is no such thing as ancient Greek-Macedonian. Ancient Macedonians were simply Macedonians and proud of it.
[2] Quintus Rufus "The History of Alexander" "Accordingly, one festive day, Alexander had a sumptuous banquet organized so that he could invite not only his principle friends among the Macedonians and Greeks but also the enemy nobility." [p.188]
Points of interest: ‘Macedonians and Greeks’. If ancient Macedonians were Greeks, then, one identifier would have been sufficient. As you can see, the ancient authors knew the difference between Greeks and Macedonians.
[3] Quintus Rufus "The History of Alexander" [Alexander speaks to his Macedonian troops] Where is that shout of yours that shows your enthusiasm? Where that characteristic look of my Macedonians?" [p.217]
[4] Arrian "The Compaigns of Alexander" "Gentlemen of Macedon, and you my friends and allies, this must not be. Stand firm; for well you know that hardship and danger are the price of glory, and that sweet is the savour of a life of courage and of deathless renown beyond the grave." [p.294]
An obvious question: If Macedonians were Greeks, and Macedonia was a Greek land, then, how can we reconcile with the fact that Alexander calls the Greeks "his allies" next to his Macedonians?
[5] Quintus Curtius Rufus "The History of Alexander" [The trial of Hermolaus]
"As for you Callisthenes, the only person to think you a man (because you are an assassin), I know why you want him brought forward. It is so that the insult which sometimes uttered against me and sometimes heard from him can be repeated by his lips before this gathering. Were he a Macedonian I would have introduced him here along with you - a teacher truly worth of his pupil. As it is, he is an Olynthian and does not enjoy the same rights." [p.195] [Since Callisthenes was a Greek Olynthian is clearly distinguished from the Macedonians.]
[6] Robert A. Hudley in his paper "Diodoros 18.60.1-3: "A Case of Remodeled Source Materials" dissects "Eumenes":
"We then come upon Eumenes' second observation that, being a foreigner, he has no right to exercise command over Macedonians. At no point, however, in Diodoros' prior narrative does Eumenes' Greek origin excite animosity among the Macedonians. More important, Eumenes does not see his foreign origin as an impediment to accepting the dynasty' offer of a supreme command in 18.58.4 and he proceeds to exercise that authority in 19.13.7 and 15.5 without any qualms on his part that he is not a Macedonian. Eumenes' foreign origin does become an issue at one point among the commanders of the Silver Shields."
One of the few Greeks that Alexander took with the Macedonian army - Eumenes had a foreign Greek origin among the Macedonians. He was a Greek and not a Macedonian. There is no need to elaborate this quote any further.
[7] Pierre Jouguet "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic World" Speaking of Eumenes:
"He knew from experience that in the eyes of the Macedonians he was still a Greek, a foreigner. Plutarch praised his charming and refined manners, which were very unlike the haughty airs of the noble Macedonian officer." [p.142]
[8] More on Eumenes: "But he was not a Macedonian, and the Macedonians did not look upon him as an equal. This may have been one reason for his tenacious loyalty to the cause of the Kings; his fortune was bound up with the Empire, and in the case of a partition he would not have received the support of the Macedonian troops in securing a portion for himself." Ibid, [p.129]
[9] On Isocrates: "At the end of his speech, Isocrates, summarizing the programme which he was proposing to Philip, advised him to be a benefactor to the Greeks, a king to the Macedonians, and to the barbarians not a master, but a chief." Ibid [p.106]
[10] [On Macedonians and Greeks] "It is sufficient for our purposes to note that the Hellenes and the Macedonians regarded themselves as different nations, and this feeling did not ceased to be the source of great difficulties for the union of Greece under Macedonian rule. When the union was achieved, it was only by policy of force." Ibid, [p.68]
[11] The Ancient World Readings in Social and Cultural History by D. Brendan Nagle Stenley M. Burstein "Contemporary scholars hold a much less benign view of the nature Hellenistic society. Far from blending to form a new culture, Greek and native societies tended to co-exist with only limited contact between them in the new Macedonian - ruled kingdoms that were formed out of the wreckage of the Alexander's empire. In other words, the Macedonian kingdoms in Egypt and Asia were essentially colonial regimes in which ethnicity was the principal determinant of social and political position. Weather or not Alexander intended his empire to be governed by a mixed elite of Macedonians, Greeks, and natives, in Ptolemiac Egypt and Seleucid Asia only Macedonians and Greeks belonged to the governing elites." [p.149]
Macedonians and Greeks once again are clearly distinguished in the Macedonian ruled kingdoms.
[12] Wilcken's quotes from "Alexander the Great":
On p.22-23. "Even in Philip's day the Greeks saw in the Macedonians a non-Greek foreign people, and we must remember this if we are to understand the history of Philip and Alexander, and especially the resistance and obstacles which met them from the Greeks. The point is much more important than our modern conviction that Greeks and Macedonians were brethren, this was equally unknown to both, and therefore could have no political effect."
[13] On p.45 "The Greeks regarded the hegemony of Philip as, after all, a foreign domination; they did not look upon the Macedonians as Greeks."
[14] On p.26: "The dislike was reciprocal, for the Macedonians have grown into a proud masterful nation, which with highly developed national consciousness looked down upon the Hellenes with contempt. This fact too is of prime importance for the understanding of later history."
[15] Lycurgus: [after the battle of Chaeronea] "With the death was buried the freedom of Greece."
[16] Homer's Greeks are variously described as Danaoi, Argives, and Achaians, but never Hellene Jonathan M. Hall Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity [Macedonians are not included]
[17] In the Catalogue of Women, the eponymous founder of Makedonia, Makedon, was the son of Zeus and Deukalion's daughter Thuia. This line of descent excludes him from the Hellenic geneology - and hence, by implication, the Makedonians from the ranks of Hellenism."
[18] "But by the fourth century, certainly, the rulers of Macedonian Lyncestis prided themselves on descent from the Corinthian Bacchiads - a royal dynasty fully comparable with the Temenid claims of their rivals at Aegae." Ernst Badian [I]"Studies in the History of Art vol. 10: Macedonia and Greece In Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times"
[Even if one is inclined to accept Macedon's genealogy for the "hellenic" descent of the Macedonians, one must be aware of the existence of other Macedonian tribes who did not trace their genealogy from Temenus.]
[19] Furthermore, the fact that Zeus is Makedon's father does not necessarily testify to his credentials as a "bona fide Hellene: after all, Sarpedon is the son of Zeus but he is Lykian not a Hellene." Jonathan Hall "Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity". p.64
[20] Lamian War 323-322 is also known as the "Hellenic War" by its protagonists. The Greeks, the Hellenes, were fighting the Macedonians led by Antipater at Lamia.
[21] [Referring to Arrian's separation of Macedonians and Greeks] "The same painstaking attention to details is evident in administrative matters. Appointments of governors are duly mentioned, and throughout his book Arrian is careful to give the father's name in the case of Macedonians, e.g. Ptolemy son of Lagus, and in the case of Greeks their city of origin." [p.25]
[Points of interest: Arrian pays close attention to clearly identify the Macedonians and the Greeks: father's name in the case of Macedonians and for the Greeks their city of origin.]
[22] Arrian "The Campaigns of Alexander" "The backbone of the infantry was the Macedonian heavy infantry, the 'Foot Companions', organized on territorial basis in six battalions (taxeis) of about 1,500 men each. In place of the nine-foot spear carried by the Greek hoplite, the Macedonian infantryman was armed with a pike or sarissa about 13 or 14 feet long, which required both hands to wield it. The light circular shield was slung on the left shoulder, and was smaller than that carried by the Greek hoplite which demanded the use of the left arm. Both, Greek and Macedonian infantry wore greaves and a helmet, but it is possible that the Macedonians did not wear a breastplate. The phalanx (a heavy infantry), like all the Macedonian troops had been brought by Philip to a remarkable standard of training and discipline." [p.35]
[23] Quintus Rufus "The History of Alexander" At a banquet prepared by Alexander for the ambassadors of certain tribes from India, among the invited guest present was the Macedonian Horratas and the Greek boxer named Dioxippus. Now at the feast the Macedonian Horratas who was already drunk, began to make insulting comments to Dioxippus and to challenge him, if he were a man, to fight a duel. Dioxippus agreed and the two men fought rather a short fight with Dioxippus emerging a victor. A huge crowd of soldiers, including the Greeks, supported Dioxippus. "The outcome of the show dismayed Alexander, as well as the Macedonian soldiers, especially since the barbarians had been present, for he feared that a mockery had been made of the celebrated Macedonian valour." [p.229]
Point of interest: Two fighters, one Macedonian, one Greek. Macedonian lost the fight. Alexander is dismayed. Why? How can a mockery be made of the Macedonian valour if in this fight the Greek won? If Alexander considered himself Greek, then, the outcome of the fight should have had no disturbing influence on him. But, as we see, he was dismayed. Peter Green says: "it was a matter of national prestige", and Bosworth states that the crowd was "ethnically polarized." This needs no further analysis. Ethnicity of the two fighters, and their affect on the polarized crowd, is not an option for consideration. It is a given.
[24] "Alexander the Great and the Hellenistic World" By Pierre Jouguet [p.187]
"An Athenian decree, voted at his instigation [Chremonides] (266-265 or 265-264), declared an agreement between Athens and Sparta, always united against the enemies of the Hellenes" (Chremonidean War)
In this case, these "united Hellenes" were fighting against the Macedonian Antigonos. Here you have a clear delineation between Greeks Hellenes [Athenians and Spartans] and their common enemy - the Macedonians Why not accept the fate of the ancient authors and reconcile with the fact that ancient Macedonians were just that - Macedonians. There was nothing Hellenic about these loyal followers of their King, and there was nothing Greek with this hardy warriors of Macedon.
[25] The Rise of the Roman Empire Polybius [p 45] By combining and comparing various statements from the ancient authors we can arrive to the truest picture of the ancients themselves. Let them speak of themselves, and let their true sentiments flood the pages, uncorrupted and free of any biased and preconceived prejudices. Only then, can we assess the magnitude of their purity of soul, and the passion for their national aspirations.
[26] Polibius reports on the speech made by Agelaus of Naupactus at the first conference in the presence of the King and the allies. He spoke as follows: [A selected segment from his speech] "I therefore beg you all to be on your guard against this danger, and I appeal especially to King Philip. [Philip V] For you the safest policy, instead of wearing down the Greeks and making them an easy prey for the invader, is to take care of them as you would of your own body, and to protect every province of Greece as you would if it were a part of your own dominions. If you follow this policy, the Greeks will be your friends and your faithful allies in case of attack, and foreigners will be the less inclined to plot against your throne, because they will be discouraged by the loyalty of the Greeks towards you." ['The Rise of the Roman Empire' p .300.] (book 5.104)
"instead of wearing down the Greeks" "making them an easy prey for the invader" "to protect every province of Greece as you would if it were a part of your own dominions" Polibius clearly distinguished not only between Greeks and Macedonians in the above passage, but also between the lands of Greece and Macedonia.
[27] "while Craterus and Antipater collaborated under the command of the latter to suppress a Greek revolt (the so-called Lamian War ended in a crushing blow to the Greeks and especially Athens), Perdiccas took control of the kings........" The Hellenistic World by F.W. Wallbank p 49
Points of interest: ended in a crushing blow to the Greeks and especially Athens. Very clearly the Lamian war ended with a victory of the Macedonians over the Greeks (Athenians being part of that Greek force).
[28] "What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility." Eugine Borza
The conclusion is still the same - the Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks. If they were, they would have been called Greeks, not Macedonians, and they would not have been specifically distinguished from the Greeks by ancient authors (including ancient Greek authors). Nothing could be further from the truth than to claim that the ancient Macedonians and the ancient Greeks were brethren. There were simply two different nations.

[chris450]

getting desperate i see....copy-pasting 2bit propaganda ,whats the matter ,run out of arguments?

any man with basic knowledge of history would laugh at those claims

[alvarhanso]

Oh no, i got plenty where that came from. If you want to read some bologni, check out this website...

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/

[TurpoUrpo]

Yes i did read that from that website of yours that you posted many pages ago. Too bad it does yell propaganda pretty loud.

[alvarhanso]

Desperate...?? You mean like your country's treats of vetoing Macedonia's NATO membership?
You can't be more desperate than that, can you?

[chris450]

the owner of the particular domain is Boris Soposki (clearly a descendant of Aristotle-ofski and Alexander-ofski) and owns a dozen more Skop propaganda sites ,run a simple whois and you'll see


Desperate...?? You mean like your country's treats of vetoing Macedonia's NATO membership?
You can't be more desperate than that, can you?]yeap,i'll be drinking my cafe late in Athens when you get the door slammed in your face in April,how desperate is that...

[alvarhanso]

Yes i did read that from that website of yours that you posted many pages ago. Too bad it does yell propaganda pretty loud.

And what your saying is what? You believe what sources? The ones that YOU decide are credible and the others are not?
Have you seen Greek propaganda? have you opened some of their newspapers?
Have you seen their TV shows, have you even listened to their priest's for god sake???
It's obvious that you have taken a side and the debate should end there.
I mean your not even from Hellass....

[alvarhanso]

the owner of the particular domain is Boris Soposki (crearly a descendant of Aristotle-ofski and Alexander-ofski) and owns a dozen more Skop propaganda sites ,run a simple whois and you'll see

yeap,i'll be drinking my cafe late in Athens when you get the door slammed in your face in April,how desperate is that...

Uuuuuuuuuuu..... now i'm scared.... :)

[chris450]

I mean your not even from Hellass....

that sounds like flame bait to me woot

[phoebus]

It's obvious that you have taken a side and the debate should end there.

I mean your not even from Hellass....

Very nice of you to show us your savoir vivre. :bash:

I hope you understand that insulting our country and its name, is merely a sign of desperation and immature thinking process. Very sad indeed, but then again serves the purpose of derailing the thread or getting it locked. I wish none of the other members will follow that road and keep the discussion open, clean and on a mature level.


that sounds like flame bait to me woot

People or remarks of that calibre should better be ingored Christo. I think that by now it's pretty clear that the articulated Hellenic position is dominating this rather pivotal issue.

[alvarhanso]

"The S. RES. 459 DOSE NOT condemn Greece in any form. It uses your constitutional name (old news) and is the perfect proof that you are a satellite State of the U.S. interests at this time and the U.S. dose it’s outmost to keep you in one piece."

No... it shows that they are sane and know the truth.

[alvarhanso]

Very nice of you to show us your savoir vivre. :bash:

I hope you understand that insulting our country and its name, is merely a sign of desperation and immature thinking process.

And saying FYROM isn't? How come? this tread should have been locked a long time ago... it's nothing but a GIANT Flame Bait!!!

[TurpoUrpo]

And what your saying is what? You believe what sources? The ones that YOU decide are credible and the others are not?
Have you seen Greek propaganda? have you opened some of their newspapers?
Have you seen their TV shows, have you even listened to their priest's for god sake???
It's obvious that you have taken a side and the debate should end there.
I mean your not even from Hellass....

Why in earth should somebody have to be from Greece or FYROM to be able to comment on things that need just pure cold logic? ONLY logical solution is to use name that clearly implies no demands on another states territory. It is not so hard.

I believe on sources that are credible. It is not so credible if some website that some FYROM nationalist hosts states somethin, or would you take some Greek nationalist website as credible? i would not.

[chris450]

And saying FYROM isn't? How come? this tread should have been locked a long time ago... it's nothing but a GIANT Flame Bait!!!



A/RES/47/225
98th plenary meeting
8 April 1993

Admission of the State whose application is contained in
document A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations

The General Assembly,

Having received the recommendation of the Security Council of 7 April
1993 that the State whose application is contained in document
A/47/876-S/25147 should be admitted to membership in the United Nations,

Having considered the application for membership contained in document
A/47/876-S/25147,

Decides to admit the State whose application is contained in document
A/47/876-S/25147 to membership in the United Nations, this State being
provisionally referred to for all purposes within the United Nations as "the
former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" pending settlement of the difference
that has arisen over the name of the State.
http://www.un.org/documents/ga/res/47/a47r225.htm

[Afro-European]

Democratic Republic of Upper Macedonia,how does it sound?


mmm no. It's like calling FYROM plain Macedonia. How do you call China? Democratic republic of China or plain China

[Afro-European]

No.I meant both sides should make some concessions,as painful as they might be.Stalemate ain't gonna bring you(both)nowhere.


And you expect Macedonia to give in to please Greece!?!? Come ooooon....

[Afro-European]

According to wiki,FYROM has 5 officials languages but Greeks is not one of them.How come? Can Greek or Macedonian posters explain me that?

"The Republic of Macedonia generally has good relations with Greeceand enjoys substantial inward investment from Greece. However, the naming dispute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute) has inhibited the establishment of full diplomatic relations so far but has not prevented Greece and the Republic from engaging in military and security co-operation, cross-border investments, and cultural exchanges".

Don't they even have a full diplomatc relations?

[Raven_gr]

Democratic Republic of Upper Macedonia,how does it sound?


no problem with that

[achilles]

Aha so i am not aware of FYROM stance,and every fu..ing day i see a dozen Macedonian officials?And you are aware of it by watching Greek national television......Dude i saw the propositions of the Macedonian government and i am fully aware of what they are consisted of.....they are ready to sign every international agreement that says that RM has no territorial demands towards Greece.You don't believe me?Try raise the question in front of the UN and you will see........

We are not on the same frequency here...they might sign whatever papers now, but the long term plan of their ultranationalist wing is to raise territorial claims against Greece. That was the initial plan all along...to create an artificial Macedonian ethnicity in order for claim Macedonia eventually, so Yugoslavia gains access to a very important pond....the Aegean. Macedonia (and i am always referring to the real thing, i.e. the northern province of Greece).


First its an innocent name. Just a name. Then the history that goes with it, and then the turf that is linked with that history. Thats a fair and simple stream of thoughts isnt it? And i am talking about the long run...FYROM can be no credible threat in the foreseable future but foreign policy should be engineered through a broad and in-depth prespective IMHO.


You said clearly that they were brainwashed and that Albania is puppet state,now......

They are the most brainwashed lot of people in the region. The hoax that politicians have pulled on those people is just tragic. In all honesty, sometimes i feel sorry for their existential confusion.

And yes, Albania is clearly a puppet state. Thats why Albanians made Bush their national hero and wave American flags every now and then.



Like i told you history is far behind me.........it is the future that i am interested in.......

History, present and future are so very much interconnected. If we forget history when making decision today, we are being lead to international lawlesness and anarchy. Look at Kosovo.

Hey, lets forget history...suddenly i feel Finland is Greek...why not after all?


What about Georgia? I lost you there...

[achilles]

Well Slavomacedonia was proposed in the past and it does make sense...

Well, there are two major problems with that proposition:

- The Albanians will NEVER digest it, since they are allergic to almost anything...Slavic

- It does not represent the reality. FYROMians are not only Slavs but an amalgamation of Bulgars (many call them "western Bulgars"), Slavs, Albanians and Greeks. The Greek community is considerable in the southern part of FYROM.

[achilles]

And saying FYROM isn't? How come? this tread should have been locked a long time ago... it's nothing but a GIANT Flame Bait!!!

Relax cowboy. FYROM is your official international name, as per the United Nations. Till it changes you got to take it easy and live with it.

[Mordoror]

Astonishing ....

I am back from an excellent film and you are still debating with pointless argument neverminding the side (banknotes vs moussaka what a fight....)

This is the pinnacle of the discussion and it shows that there will remain a deep misundertanding between us

however please do not use faded arguments
Sorry to teach you something, Chris but the flag issue was solved several years ago .... using the old and pointless propaganda from either side looks like a flaming bait for me but why I see from some greek posters here is a deep disdain for your neighbouring country and its inhabitants

Sorry but Fyromians/Macedonians do not eat greek babies, do not practice human sacrifice anymore and will not invade you or reclaim a part of your country (except in the speech of some very very stupid and unware of the international relations policies nationalists)

I repeat but Fyrom will never be a threat by itself to Greece.... except if it undergoes destablization (and sorry to say that but Greek attitude do not help to stabilize that young country)

Now, you know what I think
I think that behind this name history (which vexated you which can be understandable because it touch the myths of your nation) you are afraid of the claiming back of the lands owned by the mere slav macedonians who were expelled buring the colonels dictature for supporting communist greeks and yugo partisans

Sorry to say that but even if it happens at some individual levels, it can be solved by justice agreement on ownership statement or documents. An it is not a mere 0.5% to 1.5-2% of old slav macedonian families that will make to collapse Greek's Macedonia (if even they ask these lands or houses back which is unlikely because it's an 50 years old story)

Come on if its happen it will be solved the way german owner's in Oriental Prusse were treated for the same concern ..... drown them under justice procedures and that's all

And don't be so paranoid.... Macedonia/FYROM canot be a threat to Greece especially if entering in NATO and UE

People in Balkans are too fixed on the old stories and irrational issues, not enough on pragmatic ones

[achilles]

After spending thousands of keystrokes trying to explain that the name dispute is a PRAGMATIC and very real issue for both countries, Mordoror shows up to take us back to where we started.

Read through the Greek posts again. You will be able to see what a real issue the name issue is.

[chris450]

going through the posts wont do any good...FYROMian diaspora is more fanatic than local nationalists most of the times


Sorry but even being from Macedonian origin I can not agree with that..

[Mordoror]

After spending thousands of keystrokes trying to explain that the name dispute is a PRAGMATIC and very real issue for both countries, Mordoror shows up to take us back to where we started.

Read through the Greek posts again. You will be able to see what a real issue the name issue is.

Arf
No the name by itself is not the issue and it canot be

What is behind the name is the issue (I mean the symbol)

And because we are talking about a symbol (something which is not rational as can be let's say something concrete as the numer of tons of iron produced, or the numbers of barils of oil burned or the price of a car or anything which you can touch or correctly evaluate) this will be an never-ending discussion unless somebody point what are the fears (from both side) behind this name issue...

[Mordoror]

going through the posts wont do any good...FYROMian diaspora is more fanatic than local nationalists most of the times

Funny I am trying to have an equilibrated point of view (and I thought it can be seen in my posts) but I am convinced of being fanatic
Somebody lost his credibility in this story and it is not me

[achilles]

To whom it may concern:


"We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are a Slav people and our language is closely related to Bulgarian."
"There is some confusion about the identity of the people of this country."

[FYROM's Ambassador to Canada, Gyordan Veselinov in an interview with the Ottawa Citizen, 24 February 1999]


"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February 26, 1992, p. 35.)

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians no longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century."
Quote from FYROM'S President Mr. Kiro Gligorov.
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)


...after these comments, there was a terrorist attack on the ex-president of the F.Y.R.O.M. Kiro Gligorov. It nearly cost him his life... FYROMian ultranationalism and "Makedonism" at work...

[achilles]

Arf
No the name by itself is not the issue and it canot be

What is behind the name is the issue (I mean the symbol)

And because we are talking about a symbol (something which is not rational as can be let's say something concrete as the numer of tons of iron produced, or the numbers of barils of oil burned or the price of a car or anything which you can touch or correctly evaluate) this will be an never-ending discussion unless somebody point what are the fears (from both side) behind this name issue...

Lets cut to the chase...what are those real fears you are referring to?

[Mordoror]

Lets cut to the chase...what are those real fears you are referring to?

Let's be honnest to explain me the fears from the greek side of view

From a "FYROMIAN" point of view (although being from some "fanatic diaspora") I think that the fear is to lose a national basis (being historical or artificial is no more the point here, this have be discussed before in the thread)
And by losing the national basis to open the door to internal destabilization (from albanophone minority) or from outside origin (being Bulgarian that may look greedily to the eastern part of Macedonia, being Albania fro the same on the Western part, being Serbia for the Northern part, and being Greece for the southern part)
Macedonia (I mean all the geographic region and the people that were here) was already divided by the San Stefano treaty and this cut some families in half due to the borders... The macedonian cannot accept (even it the even would certainly as far as i can pray not happen again) this to be one more time, moreover because the price blood was paid at that time, before and after (by fighting the turkish occupant) and even with that the powers cut through the families by drawing borders on a map.
Without a strong national feeling, the fear is that it could happen again

That's my point of view
Does it seem reasonable from a fanatic ?

[zg18]

Macedonian Slavs are today clearly separatted as a national group from Bulgarians and Serbs,i think that my fellow Slavic brethren in Vardarska Makedonija should accept names like Vardarian Macedonia ot Northern Macedonia,i can`t see how this can hurt theirs national identity??

[Mordoror]

Macedonian Slavs are today clearly separatted as a national group from Bulgarians and Serbs,i think that my fellow Slavic brethren in Vardarska Makedonija should accept names like Vardarian Macedonia ot Northern Macedonia,i can`t see how this can hurt theirs national identity??


You know what ....

Northern Macedonia is totally acceptable for me

But Who can be sure that after the fall back on the flag, the fall back on the name there will not be another demand or pressure from Greece (like "do or do not do that if you want us to let you enter in NATO or EU)
That's also one of the fears......

[California Joe]

Is there something in the water over there that makes everyone mental? I swear to Christ if that region was called AssClownvania there'd be a bunch of people fighting over their rich Ass Clown heritage and the right to be called Ass Clowns by NATO.

I live in the US but I don't run around calling myself an Iroquois Indian.

Quit filling up our inbox reporting each others posts. You're all doing it. I can't see you guys actually convincing each other of the validity of each others positions, but try to keep it relatively clean. And no, I have no idea what the US is doing mucking about in that region at all.

[zg18]

But Who can be sure that after the fall back on the flag


I understand that you developed your national indentety relatively late and that you used old Macedon flag as quick solution...but your Slavs for God sake ,use Slavic tricolor (blue,red and white) for your flag,every Slavic country has some of these colors and most (Croatia,Serbia,Russia,Slovenia,Czech Republic,Slovakia) all three colors,you should create your national identety basing on Slavism like nearly all Slavic nations and not on ancient Macedon state.

[zg18]

(being Bulgarian that may look greedily to the eastern part of Macedonia, being Albania fro the same on the Western part, being Serbia for the Northern part, and being Greece for the southern part)

I will say three reasons at least why is in interest of Serbia and Greece to Macedonia survive as a state:

1.Slavic Macedonian state weakens Albanian position in Balkans (generaly)

2.They don`t want division of Macedonia to Bulgarian and Albanian part,Serbs and Greeks fought together side by side to stop that in 1913

3. is connected with the 2,Macedonia is natural connection to Serbia with Greece and opossite,Serbia gets entrence to Thesaloniki port and Greece natural land route to Europe

In my opinion,Macedonian future will depend on relations with Belgrade and Athens (economicly and politicly) ,not with Washington and Sofia.

[Mordoror]

I will say three reasons at least why is in interest of Serbia and Greece to Macedonia survive as a state:

1.Slavic Macedonian state weakens Albanian position in Balkans (generaly)

2.They don`t want division of Macedonia to Bulgarian and Albanian part,Serbs and Greeks fought together side by side to stop that in 1913

3. is connected with the 2,Macedonia is natural connection to Serbia with Greece and opossite,Serbia gets entrence to Thesaloniki port and Greece natural land route to Europe

In my opinion,Macedonian future will depend on relations with Belgrade and Athens (economicly and politicly) ,not with Washington and Sofia.

you are right and this is a reasonable way of thinking
However like me you know that in Balkan irrationality is the rule (mainly through old nationalist histories of this has done that, that has done this)
And if we have narrow minded nationalists, be sure that Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania have their own and that the relatively weak state Macedonia is can be regarded as an easy prey.....

[zg18]

And if we have narrow minded nationalist, be sure that Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania have their own and that the relatively weak state Macedonia is can be regarded as an easy prey.....


F*ck Balkan fascists ,they are all the same,nationalism is something different to me.

As i said except the name dispute,i don`t see any problem with you and Greece ,you have broad economic cooperation,you with Serbia have church issue,but i generaly didn`t see any action from both Serbia and Greece against Slavic Macedonian state itseplh while some people in Bulgaria openly want partition of FYROM and albanian rebellion (or more correctly agression from Kosovo) that threatens extintion of your state.

BTW Serbia and Greece did help you in 2001 against Albanians,beneath of these questions layes more serious interests.

[Peris]

just don't open another similar thread pls friends we will collapse :)

[Hollis]

Is there something in the water over there that makes everyone mental? I swear to Christ if that region was called AssClownvania there'd be a bunch of people fighting over their rich Ass Clown heritage and the right to be called Ass Clowns by NATO.

I live in the US but I don't run around calling myself an Iroquois Indian.

Quit filling up our inbox reporting each others posts. You're all doing it. I can't see you guys actually convincing each other of the validity of each others positions, but try to keep it relatively clean. And no, I have no idea what the US is doing mucking about in that region at all.


Just needed to be said one more time for the hard of comprehension.