US Cavalry

[Britboy]

Evening all,
Wondering if any here have served in the US Cavalry, and have any anecdotes of how you operated, how it goes during exercises and operations and so on...

Read a bit about the fact that you'd have a variety of AFVs in a relatively small Cavalry grouping, to include 120mm mortar carriers I think, so that the group could act pretty independently, had enough firepower, and that any enemy stumbling across them might think they were the main body of US armour (lotsa different AFVs) and not a covering force!

I'm familiar with the concept of reconnaissance in the light role or dismounted, or being sneaky and observing, but if anyone could shed a light on "Reconnaissance in Force", "Reconnaissance by Fire", or Covering Force operations, that'd be great.

It seems many other nations doctrine call for a form of reconnaissance that seeks to see without being seen and avoid mixing it up wherever possible (at least for light forces, I'm not familiar with armoured forces), so a doctrine that calls for reconnaissance in some heavily armed and aggressive AFVs is intriguing... Apologies if this sounds a bit open-ended but it sounds like a pretty different set-up you have, so I'm being nosey! ;-)

Cheers
BB

[Buckeye67]

Hollis could probably tell us a bit about his time with Phil Sheridan. p-)

[Britboy]

Alright then, as a starter for ten,

How about the M3 Bradley? If it was an M2 full of dismounts and the idea was for them to carry out recce on foot, I'd (kind've) get where you're coming from. If it carried no dismounts, I'd definitely get where you were coming from. But in that case why not just get one of the 'light tank' type of armoured recce vehicles, something Scimitar-like?

Just seems that to have an AFV that isn't an IFV or APC and is meant to fight mounted, but with dismounts, yet with powerful weapons of it's own, is pretty confusing. A lot of people say that BMP3 is a confused machine, but to me it makes more sense than this...

[seraosha]

Wow, this is a can of worms.

Ok, the CFV (Bradley)was not only a Recon platform, but was an anti-tank platform, so while you had your JAFO's in the back ready to dismount, during the first Gulf War they were used in their anti-tank/anti-personnel capacity (this was just before I joined the 2nd ACR), now as to recon, dismount, LP/OP the Hummer played an important role, as far as "light fighter Cav" concepts went...which was fun, except if you were in a SCAT Troop, you had a mixed bag of TOW 11H's platoons and Scout 19D's, with mortor/HQ guys playing catch-up.

Now these guys are on Strykers, and they look like some fun to drive vehicles, a nice happy medium between Brads and hummers...able to take on Armor in a pinch, but more concerned with mobility, but I'm sure some of the younger guys will be along in a bit to tell you about them.

And if you get lucky Mastermind will drop in and tell you about M113s in 'Nam.

[Hellfish6]

Evening all,
Wondering if any here have served in the US Cavalry, and have any anecdotes of how you operated, how it goes during exercises and operations and so on...

Read a bit about the fact that you'd have a variety of AFVs in a relatively small Cavalry grouping, to include 120mm mortar carriers I think, so that the group could act pretty independently, had enough firepower, and that any enemy stumbling across them might think they were the main body of US armour (lotsa different AFVs) and not a covering force!

Cav troops were big, but pretty much entirely mechanized. Nine tanks plus thirteen Bradleys and two mortar carriers. They didn't have a whole lot of usefulness in close terrain - i.e. cities and forests and mountains - because they didn't have a whole lot of dismounted infantry capability. The two dismounts per Bradley were usually used for AT, observation posts, or local security. Heavy cav units were useful against a mechanized enemy, but not so useful against a light enemy.

I'm familiar with the concept of reconnaissance in the light role or dismounted, or being sneaky and observing, but if anyone could shed a light on "Reconnaissance in Force", "Reconnaissance by Fire", or Covering Force operations, that'd be great.

Recon in force is basically going to where you think the enemy is and having enough survivability to figure out what the enemy is, what it's doing, and where it is. It's an "active" reconnaissance as opposed to the sneakier "passive" recon of light units.

Recon by fire is basically shooting at anyplace you think the enemy might be hiding to see if there's a reaction. Suspicious woodline? Call in artillery and see if anybody panics and runs away from the impacts. Suspicious farm house? Put a round through the front door and see what happens.

Covering force operations are basically protecting the flanks of the main body. If a division is attacking a city, a cav unit providing a covering force will act as a tripwire outside of the city, protecting the division's flanks. In theory, a heavy cav unit will have enough firepower, protection and mobility to provide enough time for the division to react to a new threat.

It seems many other nations doctrine call for a form of reconnaissance that seeks to see without being seen and avoid mixing it up wherever possible (at least for light forces, I'm not familiar with armoured forces), so a doctrine that calls for reconnaissance in some heavily armed and aggressive AFVs is intriguing... Apologies if this sounds a bit open-ended but it sounds like a pretty different set-up you have, so I'm being nosey! ;-)

It's basically an attempt to make the enemy react by throwing a serious threat at them. You'd watch how the enemy reacts to this new threat - and how quickly they react - and it'll provide you with a lot of information that simple observation won't give you. If the enemy reacts quickly to your cav unit, and does it in an organized fashion, you're probably dealing with a competent enemy. If the enemy bumbles and panics in reaction to this new threat, they're probably poorly trained or led. Simply watching them from a distance probably wouldn't give you this kind of intel.

[James]

PM audiem249. He's a cav scout and served in Iraq.

[Britboy]

Okay, so we have 9 MBTs and 13 CFVs, and 2 120mm mortar carriers, I’m thinking M113 track variant? That’s a large Troop, more like a Squadron I would venture! Anyhoo, point taken that they’re not much use against a light enemy in close country, but 13 CFVs x 2 dismounts does give you almost a Platoon to use dismounted – British light cavalry regiments have an Assault Squadron I believe where instead of being mounted in Scimitars (light tank type recce vehicles) they are carried in APCs and act as mechanised infantry would. Or is it a ‘boot’ troop in every squadron?

With the 2 dismounts being used as an A/Tk team (during defensive Covering Force ops only, right?), can a dismount say, crawl to the top of a berm and fire the CFVs ATGMs remotely whilst it is still out of sight so the enemy have to spot one blokes head as opposed to a big tracked armoured vehicle? Or does the CFV just act as a ‘battlefield taxi’, dropping the dismounts off where they can work like an infantry AT team?

I’ve got to say, 2 dismounts for an OP doesn’t seem to give much in the way of endurance – unless they team up with another 2 dismounts from another M3 to make a 4-man OP party? Do they carry out recce patrols on foot as well, or is it all static lying-up positions with surveillance kit like TIs?

By saying you can use the 2 dismounts for ‘local security’, I take it you mean as a Standing Patrol? As in just watching over likely enemy approach routes or forming-up areas if they were going to attack your main force/position?

Thanks for the explanation of Covering Forces. I take it they are when the formation is on the defence only right? As when you are attacking/in transit the Cav units would be acting in recce/route guidance role?

I didn’t realise CFs were for flank security only, I thought you might deploy them ahead of all of your main defensive line. That way you can aim to disrupt, demoralise and attrite the enemy before he gets to your defensive line, as well as provide early warning. I suppose the best situation is where you convince the enemy that you ARE the main force – then he manouevres to attack you as such, and you can just withdraw having wasted a lot of the other side’s time and effort.

Interesting you have tanks in your recce units. I thought as tanks are valuable you’d have saved them for Armour operations, i.e. shock action, mobile exploitation. They seem a bit overkill in a recce unit, but there again I suppose it depends how far you want to push your Recce in Force – that armour must be nice for survivability alone. And although a few ATGM armed AFVs would be enough for covering screen as I envisaged it, I suppose if your Cav units have to buy time for the rest of your division to react and redeploy to a new threat, you are going to have to mix it up properly with the enemy – where tanks would be handy!

Is the covering force area a constantly occupied area, or do Cav units rove and roam and relocate throughout it, covering a proportion of the area at a time? Like infantry patrolling to dominate the ground but in vehicles, as well as the surveillance taskings?

STRYKER seems an interesting concept, especially with the ‘Combined Arms Battalions’ – almost reminds me of a mechanised version of the new RM organisation ‘Commando 21’ – with 2 close combat companies and 2 stand off companies (MGs and ATGMs) per commando unit. I take it the infantry lads operate the Stryker APC whereas you have the 105mm assault gun type vehicle? I like the idea of the 2 arms in one battalion to promote cooperation, and having the same type of basic vehicle for ease of training and maintenance, but I suppose it neccesarily has to be a compromise when you use variants of one base vehicle.

I guess you are integrating UAVs into your recce/covering force screen quite heavily now too?
Sera, when you talk of HummVee mounted ‘lightfighter Cav’, it sounds like almost the equivalent of some UK recce units like the Pathfinder Platoon and Brigade Patrols Troop. Except that those are usually infantry-type (Para/RM) organisations who did recce on foot but have motorised for more mobility and firepower, whereas you are coming from a Cavalry background and de-armouring from CFVs almost so you end up in a similar, motorised-recce position as us.

Nice one with the final paragraph there Hellfish, you’re right, I suppose there just aren’t some things you can tell by watching and sneaking around. I guess by properly mixing it up with an enemy you can even work out their OODA loop/decision making time cycle as well?

[panzrman]

Google FM 17-98, FM 17-95 , FM 17-97


There is so much more to it than could ever be covered here. It is a bit outdated now, as there is a newer series of FM's out there, but, it will give you some good background and a starting point for more research.

There were / are many configurations of Cav units within the ranks. Their missions and equipment vary. From the sneaking and peeking, to the balls to the wall, leaning forward in the saddle movement to contact. Raids and infils. All depends on the unit and its mission.

As a Cav Scout, starting in 1985, I have been light, Blues Platoon style, to mounted on Humvees, 113's, ITV's, and Bradleys. Lots of humping, and lots of riding. Served in Div Cav, Regimental Cav, Infantry and Armor Battalions. ( Even rode around Germany in a Gamma Goat during a REFORGER once. And if you can tell me just wtf a Goat was, I will give ya a cookie, lol.) Incidentally, the 19D CMF, Cavalry Scout, is the only MOS to have that in the title..Cavalry. And stuck between two worlds. The Armor and Infantry communities. We are neither tankers nor grunts( although, we were 11 series during the Vietnam years, 11D's ). Jacks of all trades. The old Sheridan equipped Armor Bn that the 82nd used to have was not manned by tankers, but by Scouts if ya can believe that. And the Cav used to be referred to as the red headed step child of the Army since we were stuck between both worlds. A very small, tight community. Scouts are very proud of the Cav, because of that fact. Tankers come and go. Mortar and Artillery gun bunnies come and go. Pilots come and go. But a Cav Scout will always be Cav. I recently retired, took the spurs and stetson off for the last time, let the horse loose to pasture, but will always still think as and consider myself a Scout. Being Cav is really a mindset, with lots of tradition and history. Don't get me started on females walking around with Spurs and Stetsons in this PC world.

The old "Div Cav" is gone now unfortunately, as well as the older TO&E "heavy" Regiments, with the exception of the 3d ACR. Used to have the 2nd, 3rd, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiments. Known as the "Lucky 16". The 2nd is still around, in the Stryker format now, and no longer the "traditional" Cav of the cold war days. The 11th took over the OPFOR role at NTC years ago, and is but a shadow of its former self.

The 3d ACR still retains the 2 Scout Platoon, 2 Tank Platoon, 1 Mortar section Troop config. With 3 such Troops , plus a Howitzer Battery per Squadron. 3 Ground Squadrons, along with an Aviation Squadron, and a Support Sqaudron make up the Regiment.

Now each Brigade within a Division has its own Cav Squadron ( Battalion ), minus tanks. Often refered to by old timers as a Short Squadron.


And I beg to differ about a Cav unit not being much use against a light enemy in close quarters. Quite the opposite in fact.

Hope some of this rambling helps, and not leaving your head reeling. Really is a complex subject.

[seraosha]

A very small, tight community. Scouts are very proud of the Cav, because of that fact. Tankers come and go. Mortar and Artillery gun bunnies come and go. Pilots come and go. But a Cav Scout will always be Cav.

QFT

Being a Cav Scout is something else, that's for sure.

[AUDIEM249]

pretty much what can be explained has been to the best of my understanding of the Cavalry role. panzr gives sounds advice with looking at the FM's, everything you would want to know!

on the note of Cavalry comradery, it is what made me reenlist and is now what makes leaving the Army so hard. this week i received my combat spurs and as mentioned before doesnt mean much within todays Army, but as a scout it is a great honor to now be able to wear my spurs and stetson.

I will have nothing but pride and effection for the Cav, its history whether it be in our role, its history, my fellow scouts, or being the bastard children of the U.S Army.




Halfway down the trail to Hell,
In a shady meadow green
Are the Souls of all dead troopers camped,
Near a good old-time canteen.
And this eternal resting place
Is known as Fiddlers' Green.

Marching past, straight through to Hell
The Infantry are seen.
Accompanied by the Engineers,
Artillery and Marines,
For none but the shades of Cavalrymen
Dismount at Fiddlers' Green.

Though some go curving down the trail
To seek a warmer scene.
No trooper ever gets to Hell
Ere he's emptied his canteen.
And so rides back to drink again
With friends at Fiddlers' Green.

And so when man and horse go down
Beneath a saber keen,
Or in a roaring charge of fierce melee
You stop a bullet clean,
And the hostiles come to get your scalp,
Just empty your canteen,
And put your pistol to your head
And go to Fiddlers' Green.

[Maarten]

At http://www.enlisted.info i can't download the FM. Can someone tell me where i can find them in pdf format?
FM 17-98, FM 17-95 , FM 17-97

Thx

[Lifeinasmallbox]

13 foxtrot

[AUDIEM249]

13 foxtrot SHUT THE **** UP YOU STUPID MOTHER ****ER **** **** COCK ****IT BITCH **** ASS!!!!

[oswald]

SHUT THE **** UP YOU STUPID MOTHER ****ER **** **** COCK ****IT BITCH **** ASS!!!!His mom is gonna kick your ass.

[AUDIEM249]

His mom is gonna kick your ass.
his mom has breast plants and loves me, counter remark to comense in 5... 4... 3... 2.... 1... "hides in bunker"

[Maine Finn]

SHUT THE **** UP YOU STUPID MOTHER ****ER **** **** COCK ****IT BITCH **** ASS!!!!

Well. Somebody's gone a little asterisk crazy. :-P

My recruiter was Cav. Pretty decent guy; double-respect to him because he helped get me in. :)

[Lifeinasmallbox]

his mom has breast plants and loves me, counter remark to comense in 5... 4... 3... 2.... 1... "hides in bunker"

Audie Audie Audie..while im here in beautiful Hawaii recovering from Chlamydia thanks to all the a$s I get. Layin on the beach and getting my tan...You're in mexico and you having a tiny doodle doesn't help your situation any.

..and yes my mom is going to kick your ass (whether she loves you or not!)

I hate you




Hey who ever is thinkin about goin' scout..13F is pretty much the same thing..just in a smaller elements..much smaller. We have our own platoon in the battalion. Dont answer to anybody beside other FiSTers..work on our own time and will beat the living sh*t out of any 11bangbang/19Dingleberry who gets in our way.

haha Teddy...you lost! what now!

(AND LEAVE MY MOMS BREAST IMPLANTS OUT OF THIS!) Your mom used to kiss me and hold my hand. We even went grocery shopping..so therefore Im your new daddy.

[AUDIEM249]

Audie Audie Audie..while im here in beautiful Hawaii recovering from Chlamydia thanks to all the a$s I get. Layin on the beach and getting my tan...You're in mexico and you having a tiny doodle doesn't help your situation any.

..and yes my mom is going to kick your ass (whether she loves you or not!)

I hate you




Hey who ever is thinkin about goin' scout..13F is pretty much the same thing..just in a smaller elements..much smaller. We have our own platoon in the battalion. Dont answer to anybody beside other FiSTers..work on our own time and will beat the living sh*t out of any 11bangbang/19Dingleberry who gets in our way.

haha Teddy...you lost! what now!

(AND LEAVE MY MOMS BREAST IMPLANTS OUT OF THIS!) Your mom used to kiss me and hold my hand. We even went grocery shopping..so therefore Im your new daddy.
you and your badass fister buddies have fun sitting in the TOC while everyone else goes out and actually does missions. AND LEAVE MY TINY DOODLE OUT OF THIS!!! p-)

lets take this to PM before we get in trouble

[Lifeinasmallbox]

I got your TOC right here..