Organization of US air cav platoon/squad 1960's

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

I know how the US infantry platoon was organized, in squads -> fire teams, but how was the helicopter-borne air cav organized? In the same way or not? That would mean there were two Huey helicopters needed to transport one squad.

I seriously have no idea, can anyone shed some light on this?

SPecifically, I would like to know about the 1st Bn / 7th Regiment of the 1st Cavalry division in Vietnam in 1968. If that's too specific.. I'll be happy with any information at all :)

I couldn't find any TO&E's.

Cheers!

[tomahawk6]

Here's a link that might help you out.

http://www.eleven-bravo.co.uk/the-war/organisation/air-cav-troop.php

[Hellfish6]

Here's a link that might help you out.

http://www.eleven-bravo.co.uk/the-war/organisation/air-cav-troop.php

That's different. He's talking about the 1st Cavalry Division (Airmobile), not the divisional air cav squadron that nearly all divisions have.

Divisions sent to Vietnam had modified TO&Es - different from similar divisions in CONUS or Europe. IIRC the 1st Cav wasn't an air cavarly division per se, they were an infantry division that utilized helicopters.

This should help as a starting point:

http://www.tdg.nu/TO&Es/1946%2B/toe_us_road_div_1960.htm

Just remove any of the heavy weapons and armored vehicles from the infantry battalion and you'll probably have a good starting point for the 1/7th.

[baboon6]

Actually Hellfish only the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 101st Airborne Division had organic air cavalry squadrons- the other divisions which served in Vietnam had armoured cavalry squadrons which each included an air cavalry troop. Several separate air cavalry squadrons also served in-country.

AFAIK rifle platoons and squads in airmobile infantry battalions were exactly the same as in a normal (non-mechanized) infantry battalion.

[Hellfish6]

Actually Hellfish only the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 101st Airborne Division had organic air cavalry squadrons- the other divisions which served in Vietnam had armoured cavalry squadrons which each included an air cavalry troop. Several separate air cavalry squadrons also served in-country.

Ah yeah, you're right. I swear that some divisions had air cav squadrons too, as part of the aviation brigade (had a reverse mix of AHs and OHs as compared to an attack aviation battalion).

[baboon6]

Ah yeah, you're right. I swear that some divisions had air cav squadrons too, as part of the aviation brigade (had a reverse mix of AHs and OHs as compared to an attack aviation battalion).

The divisional aviation brigade was way post-Vietnam. 1st Cav Div and 101st Abn Div had aviation groups, other divisions had only companies or battalions. The majority of aviation units in Vietnam belonged to the 1st Aviation Brigade and its subordinate groups, and were op-conned to other formations as required.

[Hellfish6]

The divisional aviation brigade was way post-Vietnam. 1st Cav Div and 101st Abn Div had aviation groups, other divisions had only companies or battalions. The majority of aviation units in Vietnam belonged to the 1st Aviation Brigade and its subordinate groups, and were op-conned to other formations as required.

Gotcha. Thanks for the info.

[baboon6]

Here's an extract which gives a good idea of how aviation assets were organised in Vietnam, around 1966:
1st Aviation Brigade assigned one combat aviation battalion headquarters in direct support of each infantry division and this battalion headquarters normally worked with that division no matter how many companies might be assigned for a specific mission.
At this time the 52d Aviation Battalion supported the 4th Division in the highlands, the 10th Aviation Battalion supported the brigade of the 101st and the Republic of Korea division, the 11th Combat Aviation Battalion supported the Big Red One, the 214th—the 9th Division, and the 269th—the 25th Division. The 13th Battalion, which was later to become a full group, remained in the Delta. Two aviation groups—the 17th and the 12th—supervised the aviation assets in the II and III Corps Tactical Zones respectively. The aviation group commander was also the aviation officer for the U. S. Field Force commander.


http://www.history.army.mil/books/Vietnam/Airmobility/airmobility-ch06.html

Org chart for 1st Aviation Brigade, date unknown:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/4070/chart2vy7.th.gif (http://img148.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chart2vy7.gif)

[baboon6]

Going back to the original topic, here's a TO&E for a US Army rifle company, date unknown. I'm sure many units operated on TOEs modified from this one:

http://www.swampfox.info/UnitCompositions.html

[bikewrench8541]

I read a bunch about this a LOOONG time ago.

An Air Cavalry Squadron had about 5 troops.
Red -Attack Helo Troop, Cobras or Hueys early on
White - Scout Birds, OH-6 [combined with Red Troop by flight or pair into 'Pink Teams']
Blue - [this is where I get confused] Infantry Company
Black? - Lift Company of Hueys
H and HS

That's close anyway;-)

[baboon6]

I read a bunch about this a LOOONG time ago.

An Air Cavalry Squadron had about 5 troops.
Red -Attack Helo Troop, Cobras or Hueys early on
White - Scout Birds, OH-6 [combined with Red Troop by flight or pair into 'Pink Teams']
Blue - [this is where I get confused] Infantry Company
Black? - Lift Company of Hueys
H and HS

That's close anyway;-)

AFAIK an Air Cavalry Squadron had five troops- HHT, three air cav troops (A, B, C) and a ground cav troop (D). Each air cav troop had an aeroweapons ("Red"), aeroscout ("White") and aerorifle ("Blue") platoons, plus the Huey platoon to lift the Blues. The ground cav troop had three platoons mounted in jeeps and 3/4 ton trucks. Each platoon had a scout squad, mortar squad, rifle squad and anti-tank squad.

[tomahawk6]

The 1st Cav division's cav squadron was responsible for over half of the divisions confirmed body count,which is an amazing stat.

[Airman OCCS]

Actually Hellfish only the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 101st Airborne Division had organic air cavalry squadrons- the other divisions which served in Vietnam had armoured cavalry squadrons which each included an air cavalry troop. Several separate air cavalry squadrons also served in-country.

AFAIK rifle platoons and squads in airmobile infantry battalions were exactly the same as in a normal (non-mechanized) infantry battalion.

What about units like the 3rd Brigade, 82nd Airborne or 173rd Airborne how were they configured ? BTW I don't think the 25th Infantry Division was configured as Armored Cav because there the only Light Inf. Div. (that's not airborne) in the US Army.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Actually Hellfish only the 1st Cavalry Division and later the 101st Airborne Division had organic air cavalry squadrons- the other divisions which served in Vietnam had armoured cavalry squadrons which each included an air cavalry troop. Several separate air cavalry squadrons also served in-country.

AFAIK rifle platoons and squads in airmobile infantry battalions were exactly the same as in a normal (non-mechanized) infantry battalion.


So that would be:
Rifle platoon (36 men) (lead by 2nd LT)
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Rifle squad (12 men) (lead by ssg)
Rifle squad (12 men)
Rifle squad (12 men)
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

fire team (4 men) lead by sgt/cpl
fire team (4 men)
fire team (4 men)


Correct? How many M-60's would be assigned to a platoon, and how were they distributed? One M60 per squad? If so, in which fire team? And how about grenadiers?

[Hellfish6]

So that would be:
Rifle platoon (36 men) (lead by 2nd LT)
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Rifle squad (12 men) (lead by ssg)
Rifle squad (12 men)
Rifle squad (12 men)
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

fire team (4 men) lead by sgt/cpl
fire team (4 men)
fire team (4 men)


Correct? How many M-60's would be assigned to a platoon, and how were they distributed? One M60 per squad? If so, in which fire team? And how about grenadiers?

No.

Look at Baboon6's links.

Rifle Platoon HQ

1 - Lieutenant, Rifle
1 - E-7 Platoon Sergeant, Rifle
1 - E-3 Radio Operator, Rifle
2 - AN/PRC-6
1 - AN/PRC-25
Rifle Squad (3 per Platoon)

1 - E-6 Squad Leader, Rifle
2 - E-5 Team Leader, Rifle
2 - E-4 Auto Rifleman, Rifle with Bipod
2 - E-4 Grenadier, Pistol .45 cal, M-79
3 - E-3 Rifleman, Rifle
AN/PRC-6
Weapons Squad

1 - E-6 Squad Leader, Rifle
2 - E-4 Machine Gunner, M-60, Pistol .45 cal
2 - E-4 Gunner, 90mm Recoilless Rifle, Pistol .45 cal
2 - E-3 Ammo Bearer, Rifle
2 - E-3 Assistant Machine Gunner, Pistol .45 cal
2 - E-3 Assistant Gunner, Pistol .45 cal
AN/PRC-6

The E-6 SSG in the weapons squad is usually the most senior SSG in the platoon. Note that the TO&E for the Weapons Squad includes a 90-mm Recoilless Rifle (2 man team) but it was common practice for the 90mm Recoilless Rifle to be left at base camp or the NDP (troops could still carry the LAW as an anti-tank weapon) and replaced by a third M-60 MG or alternatively the 90mm RR team would hump extra ammo for the 60's (as above).

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

----------------------
Platoon HQ (3 men)

LT - rifle - PRC6
Platoon Sgt-rifle-prick six
RTO-rifle-prc25

---------------------

Squad leader-rifle-prc6 (1 person)
Team leader-rifle (1 person)
Auto rifleman (two per squad?) (what weapon? M16 with bipod?)
Grenadier, pistol, m79 (two per squad?:|)
3x rifleman (or just one per squad?)

Three squads per platoon
------------------
weapons squad: (that is the 4th squad?)

Would this squad operate on it's own, or would the M60 teams be sent to other squads where needed?

1x squad leader - rifle - prc6
2x M60 gunner - pistol
2x 90mm gunner, .45
2x ammo bearer-rifle
2x assistant m60 gunner
2x assistant gunner 90mm - .45

I still don't really get it.

How would the platoon be deployed in combat? More specifically, the squad? Were squads divided into two fire teams?
Would they act as a fire team and an assault team? How was the heavy weapons squad incorporated into the firefight?


.... :) wow. Hope you guys want to help!

[Hellfish6]

----------------------

weapons squad: (that is the 4th squad?)

Would this squad operate on it's own, or would the M60 teams be sent to other squads where needed?

Yes, it's the 4th squad. The squad can operate on its own, but I think in Vietnam, due to the close terrain, it was usually parceled out to the squads. In theory, the weapons squad provides a base of fire that pins the enemy down while the rifle squads close with, and destroy, the enemy.


How would the platoon be deployed in combat? More specifically, the squad? Were squads divided into two fire teams?
Would they act as a fire team and an assault team? How was the heavy weapons squad incorporated into the firefight?


.... :) wow. Hope you guys want to help!Squads were divided into two fire teams. I don't know where the extra rifleman went (squad leader's battle buddy?) but the two teams would usually be organized the same - team leader, rifleman, grenadier, autorifleman. They would bound forward toward the target - one team moving while the other covers, then vice-versa and so forth.

As for how it was done, I doubt there's any single one standard. Rifle platoons, squads and teams operated based on METT-T - meaning that the mission, enemy, time, troops and terrain all had to be considered. Sometimes it would be best to operate the platoon as a whole, sometimes it would be best for squads to operate on their own, etc.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

So basically, if it works, it ain't stupid, and organization was often thought up by small unit commanders while adapting to a battlefield situation. Right?

Would the AR in the vietnam era fire team be a M16?
Would the M60 be used as a AR to create a ww2 style squad base with Bravo as a fire team with the M60 and Alpha as an assault team without one?

Thanks for all the help so far.

[Hellfish6]

Yeah, M16 would be most common rifle after '66.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Yeah, M16 would be most common rifle after '66.


I meant in the SAW role.

[Hellfish6]

I meant in the SAW role.

M16. Sometimes with a bipod.

[Laconian]

So basically, if it works, it ain't stupid, and organization was often thought up by small unit commanders while adapting to a battlefield situation. Right?


The TO&E was set by Dep of Army. However, as H6 mentioned, it was up to the Plt Ldr, after doing his mission analysis, to figure out how he would deploy his plt and who would get extra firepower if needed. The Company Cdr, would do the same. BN, BDE, DIV commanders might have instituted SOPs to modify the TO&E to better fit METT-T analysis. For instance, when I was in in the '80s a mech company included 3 rifle platoons plus a TOW section and, IIRC correctly a mortar section. However it was local policy that the organic TOW sections were assigned to the TOW (E Co.) and the mortar section was assigned to the HHC Mortar Plt. This allowed the BN CO to better employ those assets at the BN/TF level.

[baboon6]

Yes, it's the 4th squad. The squad can operate on its own, but I think in Vietnam, due to the close terrain, it was usually parceled out to the squads. In theory, the weapons squad provides a base of fire that pins the enemy down while the rifle squads close with, and destroy, the enemy.

Squads were divided into two fire teams. I don't know where the extra rifleman went (squad leader's battle buddy?) but the two teams would usually be organized the same - team leader, rifleman, grenadier, autorifleman. They would bound forward toward the target - one team moving while the other covers, then vice-versa and so forth.

As for how it was done, I doubt there's any single one standard. Rifle platoons, squads and teams operated based on METT-T - meaning that the mission, enemy, time, troops and terrain all had to be considered. Sometimes it would be best to operate the platoon as a whole, sometimes it would be best for squads to operate on their own, etc.

1 5-man fire-team, 1 4-man. Seems weird but that's what it went to after the squad went from 11 to 10 in the early 60s. I've got a whole pdf somewhere which explains the development of the US Army rifle squad from WW2 to the 1990s.

[baboon6]

Finally got Shelby L. Stanton's books out (Vietnam Order of Battle and US Army Uniforms of the Vietnam War). According to his charts a typical rifle company (from about 1967, after the 106mm recoilless section was eliminated) was supposed to be composed as follows:

6 officers, 158 enlisted
5 1/4 ton trucks
6 M60 machine guns, 24 M79 grenade launchers, 9 .45 pistols (seems low), 149 M16 rifles, 3 81mm mortars, 3 90mm recoilless rifles.

Company HQ had 2 officers and 10 enlisted, three rifle platoons each 1 officer and 41 enlisted, mortar platoon 1 officer and 25 enlisted. Rifle platoon was HQ (1 off, 2 EM), three rifle squads (each 10 enlisted with M16s and M79s) and one weapons squad (9 enlisted with M16s, two M60s and a 90mm recoilless rifle, the latter almost always left at the base camp). Mortar platoon had an HQ (1 off, 7 enlisted) and three mortar squads (6 enlisted with 1 M79, 1 81mm mortar and M16s). The 81mm mortars were also usually left at base and the squads used as rifle infantry.

In the section on radios he doesn't mention the PRC-6 at all. The PRT-4/PRR-9 combination (hand-held transmitter and and helmet-mounted receiver) was tested in 1967 (pretty unsuccessfully) but apparently most units used the PRC-25 and later -77 down to squad level. From other things I've read (after-action reports on the US Army Infantry School site) each rifle company had about 6 extra radios, so about 2 out of 3 rifle squads in a platoon had one.

Of course these personnel numbers are paper ones and most units were way understrength- 80% strength was considered good. Then you have attached medics, artillery forward observers, dog teams, engineers etc.

[baboon6]

What about units like the 3rd Brigade, 82nd Airborne or 173rd Airborne how were they configured ? BTW I don't think the 25th Infantry Division was configured as Armored Cav because there the only Light Inf. Div. (that's not airborne) in the US Army.

If you're talking about the infantry battalions within those brigades and divisions, what gradually happened is that besides mech (9 bns at maximum US strength) and riverine (3) battalions, all infantry battalions in Vietnam came to be configured the same way. Originally there were several types-airmobile, parachute, light, "normal"- with an HHC, three rifle companies and in some cases a combat support (heavy weapons) company, with personnel varying from 769 to 849. Later most ended up with an HHC, four rifle companies, and a combat support company (the last including 4.2-in mortar and recon platoons), with an authorised strength of 920. The only difference with the 173rd Abn Bde being that they were on jump status.

If you're talking about the cavalry elements, the 173rd had an armoured cavalry troop, as did the 3rd/82nd. The 173rd also originally had a company of M56 self-propelled anti-tank guns but they were withdrawn in 1968. All divisions (except for the 1st Cavalry and later the 101st Abn Div) had an an organic or attached armoured cavalry sqn. The 4th and 25th Infantry Divs each included a tank battalion, as did the 1st Bde, 5th Infantry Div.

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Thanks a lot for all the info, guys.

[INCONEL]

I see it on ebay once in awile, but hard to find: Winged Sabres by Lawrence H. Johnson III, is a book you should look for.