View Full Version : A question about US Special Forces in Honduras in 1983...
I recall hearing that back in 1983, US SF personnel were involved in helping the Honduran military track down and stop a unit of PRTC-H guerillas. DOes anyone here know anything about that? Like which units, both US and Honduran, were involved, how many were there, what was the size of the guerilla column, what did both sides carry.
MidwestSpecial
03-08-2008, 07:59 PM
this guy my uncle knows was there. he wouldnt really tell him anything about what they did down there though. sorry i cant help.
LORD-eX-Bu
03-08-2008, 09:02 PM
my father met my mother down there and they got married and thats how I came into the world :lol:
Hellfish6
03-08-2008, 09:12 PM
I was there. What do you want to know?
gaijinsamurai
03-08-2008, 09:44 PM
He's not asking about the hookers in Tegucigalpa.
Hellfish6
03-08-2008, 11:06 PM
I deny all knowledge of said "hookers" on the grounds of national security.
But at least I can say "I was in the ****" and mean it literally.
D-gin
03-08-2008, 11:11 PM
Passing out on a ****ter after partying with (deleted for national security) does not count, fishstick.
Dominique
03-08-2008, 11:38 PM
I recall hearing that back in 1983, US SF personnel were involved in helping the Honduran military track down and stop a unit of PRTC-H guerillas. DOes anyone here know anything about that? Like which units, both US and Honduran, were involved, how many were there, what was the size of the guerilla column, what did both sides carry.
Most of that info is still classified, along with most of the US military operations that took place in Central & South America during that time frame. So odds are pretty good you won't be getting the info you're looking for on an open source forum.
SouthernCross
03-09-2008, 12:04 AM
There were several incursions during 1983 and 1984 from Nicaragua (where they were trained by the Sandinistas) to Honduras of these Honduran guerrilla groups in platoon size columns. All these operations failed.
The 7th. SFG trained the Honduran military against the threat of the Nicaraguan forces as well as in counter insurgency tactics.
I was there. What do you want to know?
Well, I was interested in what US SF units were involved, and if they ever saw any combat. Also, what units of the Honduran military did they work with. Also, I would like to know what weapons both sides used.
There were several incursions during 1983 and 1984 from Nicaragua (where they were trained by the Sandinistas) to Honduras of these Honduran guerrilla groups in platoon size columns. All these operations failed.
The 7th. SFG trained the Honduran military against the threat of the Nicaraguan forces as well as in counter insurgency tactics.
What groups were involved?
helomech
03-09-2008, 01:13 AM
There were several incursions during 1983 and 1984 from Nicaragua (where they were trained by the Sandinistas) to Honduras of these Honduran guerrilla groups in platoon size columns. All these operations failed.
The 7th. SFG trained the Honduran military against the threat of the Nicaraguan forces as well as in counter insurgency tactics.
7th SF was there and all over the region from that timeframe and onward into the 90's;but that's speaking in generalities,any more and that would be opsec-oriented
Hellfish6
03-09-2008, 01:16 AM
Well, I was interested in what US SF units were involved, and if they ever saw any combat. Also, what units of the Honduran military did they work with. Also, I would like to know what weapons both sides used.
OPSEC. ........
OPSEC. ........
So in other words, you can't tell me. What about the weaponry used by both the Honduran government forces and the guerillas?
Hellfish6
03-09-2008, 03:03 AM
So in other words, you can't tell me, huh? What about the weaponry used by both the Honduran government forces and the guerillas?
Sticks and stones.
SnakeBiteLeader
03-09-2008, 03:04 AM
I recall hearing that back in 1983, US SF personnel were involved in helping the Honduran military track down and stop a unit of PRTC-H guerillas. DOes anyone here know anything about that? Like which units, both US and Honduran, were involved, how many were there, what was the size of the guerilla column, what did both sides carry.
I was born in 1983. Beyond this I can't help you, sorry.
Sticks and stones.
You don't have to be a smart alec. I was just curious.
Well I'm sure some mil-group guy knows the answer somewhere. Who knows? Only the shadow knows, ha ha.
Indianer
03-09-2008, 03:58 AM
Most of that info is still classified, along with most of the US military operations that took place in Central & South America during that time frame. So odds are pretty good you won't be getting the info you're looking for on an open source forum.
Not true...
I just used a proprietary search engine, called the Declassified Documents Reference System - that is available to universities via US Congress, and have literally pulled up 1,000 of reports on both US military and CIA reports there from the 80s to the 1950s!
Hellfish6
03-09-2008, 03:59 AM
Not true...
I just used a proprietary search engine, called the Declassified Documents Reference System - that is available to universities via US Congress, and have literally pulled up 1,000 of reports on both US military and CIA reports there from the 80s to the 1950s!
They're coming for you.
Indianer
03-09-2008, 04:57 AM
LOL Hellfish, I just said they were declassified...I didn't say to what crazy extent they had been redacted!
LOL Hellfish, I just said they were declassified...I didn't say to what crazy extent they had been redacted!
The Cold War has been over for almost two decades if I'm not mistaken, so it's certainly plausible for their declassification, even if it's not total.
chulo_allen
03-09-2008, 05:07 AM
The Cold War has been over for almost two decades if I'm not mistaken, so it's certainly plausible for their declassification, even if it's not total.
declassification is based most of the time on number of years, not events, so you may have to wait for another 25 to 30 years
SouthernCross
03-09-2008, 09:30 AM
As mentioned before, the 7th. SFG was the one involved in Latam training and advisory. I quite don't follow your question about "units" involved and I think is pointless to know which were the ODAs working there.
Regarding the Honduran military, the 316th Military Intelligence Battalion was the one running the show in counter insurgency.
As far as weapons, I also fail to see the point about knowing that detail.
As also mentioned by other posters, you are not going to get so much info about these operations given its classified nature from both the US Military and the host countries.
If you need further details, you can always call John Negroponte, who was the ambassador during that time frame or South Command directly. p-)
Dominique
03-09-2008, 09:41 AM
Not true...
And you would be wrong.
I just used a proprietary search engine, called the Declassified Documents Reference System - that is available to universities via US Congress, and have literally pulled up 1,000 of reports on both US military and CIA reports there from the 80s to the 1950s!
Due you have a clue as to how much paperwork is generated each day by the USG? Just because you could pull up SOME of the paperwork doesn't mean that you can access it all. As I stated, MOST, but not all of the documents involving US military assets (especially SOF units), the activities of NGAs, the DOS, etc., from that era are likely to remain classified until you are long in the tooth. That's if they ever decide to declassify them. There's sh!t that happened in WWII that they're still waiting to declassify.
Indianer
03-09-2008, 02:25 PM
nowhere did I say that I could access ALL of it. Learn to read to before you call someone out....aight? ALL I implied is that some DoD and CIA reports on the subject are declassified now and available now.
And yes, you are correct, "there's **** that happened in WWII that they're still waiting to declassify." Best example of that I could give you is the sinking of the SS Leopoldville on 24-Dec-44. But the beauty of that is that the Brits released the stuff in the 1990s, while the US has not -- yet!
gaijinsamurai
03-09-2008, 03:49 PM
I don't know what weapons the insurgents used, but when I was in Honduras (briefly, en route from El Salvador to Nicaragua) in 1994, the soldiers were armed with FN FALs.
helomech
03-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Not true...
I just used a proprietary search engine, called the Declassified Documents Reference System - that is available to universities via US Congress, and have literally pulled up 1,000 of reports on both US military and CIA reports there from the 80s to the 1950s!
This is for you Indianer and KVLG:
Why is it important for you to know this stuff?Are you writing a book?A thesis for school or just wanting to stir sh1t up?
Don't take it personally,but step back and look at what's being asked of this thread;I'm sure there are some here who may know what was what during that time frame,but you won't find anyone volunteering that info here
Dominique
03-09-2008, 04:17 PM
nowhere did I say that I could access ALL of it. Learn to read to before you call someone out....aight? ALL I implied is that some DoD and CIA reports on the subject are declassified now and available now.
I did read your statement, and you didn’t imply anything. Nor did you state that you could access some documents. You said flat out that my comment that most of the documents from those operations are classified, and would probably remain so for quite a while, was “Not True”. Correct? And then I pointed out that while some documents m ay have been declassified, the majority of them are still classified, did I not? So how is that calling you out there speedy? And as not to tie up any more space with this, if you’ve got any other comments on my replies, feel free to PM me with your response.
cagey veteran
03-09-2008, 04:29 PM
My parents neighbour claims to be a part of this action...anyway all good stuff, but not being a follower of US SF operations I ws wondering where or how I could research some of this stuff to confirm or deny....just out of curiosity.
any helpers out there?
Well this thread went the direction of Honduras at least, south! I'm feeling the love out there.
P.S. IDKS
Dominique
03-09-2008, 04:58 PM
My parents neighbour claims to be a part of this action...was in the 7th, made it to command Sgt Major. Was demoted over some action in paraguay or venezuala...bitter about it, did job to good, upset local authorites....also has an interesting story about dropping into an african country in prep for a bigger op only to be surrounded and ....anyway all good stuff, but not being a follower of US SF operations I ws wondering where or how I could research some of this stuff to confirm or deny....just out of curiosity.
He3 has the coin, the ID card, etc, and is probably about 50 yrs old. HE has a SF Association web email adress but it seems to be inactive...
any helpers out there?
If all you want to do is verify if he was SF or not, www.specialopereations.com
Register, and tell them you're trying to verify if someone was SF or not.
As mentioned before, the 7th. SFG was the one involved in Latam training and advisory. I quite don't follow your question about "units" involved and I think is pointless to know which were the ODAs working there.
Regarding the Honduran military, the 316th Military Intelligence Battalion was the one running the show in counter insurgency.
That was what I was interested in.
As far as weapons, I also fail to see the point about knowing that detail.
I'm just curious. I wanted to know what the Honduran military and the other side used. Whether it was M-16A1s, FN FALS, Galils, AK-47s, AKMs, vz. 52s, SKSs.
As also mentioned by other posters, you are not going to get so much info about these operations given its classified nature from both the US Military and the host countries.
Understandable. Still, whatever I could get would be fine. BTW, wasn't there an American priest who traveled with a guerilla column?
If you need further details, you can always call John Negroponte, who was the ambassador during that time frame or South Command directly. p-)
Well, I'm afraid I don't know his phone number.:)
This is for you Indianer and KVLG:
Why is it important for you to know this stuff?Are you writing a book?A thesis for school or just wanting to stir sh1t up?
Neither. I recall having heard about the matter, and I was just curious and wanted to know more. Believe me, I don't want to stir crap up.
Don't take it personally,but step back and look at what's being asked of this thread;I'm sure there are some here who may know what was what during that time frame,but you won't find anyone volunteering that info here
Understandable. Still anything would be fine.
Sticks and stones.
I didn't mean to sound snippy or smart, and I'm sorry if I was.
I don't know what weapons the insurgents used, but when I was in Honduras (briefly, en route from El Salvador to Nicaragua) in 1994, the soldiers were armed with FN FALs.
Weren't some of those FN FALs or Argentine origin?
gaijinsamurai
03-09-2008, 07:22 PM
To be honest, I really don't know. Possibly.
To be honest, I really don't know. Possibly.
I think that Edward Ezell stated that Honduran FALs were both of Belgian and Argentine origins. After all, Buenos Aires sent arms to the Contra rebels, at least before the Falklands War, so they no doubt sent arms to Tegulcigalpa as well.
SouthernCross
03-09-2008, 07:51 PM
Honduran Army was equipped with FN FALs provided by Argentina since the late 70s.
SouthernCross
03-09-2008, 08:11 PM
The priest you mentioned was Reverend James Carney. There are different reports about his death, some said he was shot in the fight, others that he died from starvation in the Olancho province mountains and others that he was imprisoned and later on executed.
There was another US Citizen killed in that raid, David Arturo Baez Cruz, a Nicaraguan who became US Citizen and served as a Commo SGT in SF based in Ft. Gulick. There has been a lot of speculation about him, if he really was a defector and the Nicaraguan advisor who was reported to be in the guerrilla column or if he was a CIA asset cut loose.
In the 90s, this incident was pictured in Haney's book and set a lot of controversy/noise when published.
Regarding insurgents weapons, among others, some caches reported smuggled M16s which serial Nrs could be traced back to Vietnam.
If you are really interested in this particular volatile period of Central/South America, perhaps you should search the Dept. of Defence/State declassified documentation.
There is documentation/information in the public domain, but I wish you luck since in addition to the obvious OPSEC of this type of operations, they were and still are highly sensitive in terms of political implications (Oliver North, Iran/Contras, Human Rights Violations, School of Americas National Security Policy, Hey!!! even Daniel Ortega is back!!!!!).
The priest you mentioned was Reverend James Carney. There are different reports about his death, some said he was shot in the fight, others that he died from starvation in the Olancho province mountains and others that he was imprisoned and later on executed.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think happened? Also, didn't the guy write a book? "To be a Christian is to be a revolutionary", wasn't it called?
There was another US Citizen killed in that raid, David Arturo Baez Cruz, a Nicaraguan who became US Citizen and served as a Commo SGT in SF based in Ft. Gulick. There has been a lot of speculation about him, if he really was a defector and the Nicaraguan advisor who was reported to be in the guerrilla column or if he was a CIA asset cut loose.
Why would the Nicaraguans send a advisor into Honduras with guerillas? If he was caught, wouldn't it have blown up in the Sandinstas's faces?
In the 90s, this incident was pictured in Haney's book and set a lot of controversy/noise when published.
Could you tell me more about Haney's book?
Regarding insurgents weapons, among others, some caches reported smuggled M16s which serial Nrs could be traced back to Vietnam.
If you are really interested in this particular volatile period of Central/South America, perhaps you should search the Dept. of Defence/State declassified documentation.
Where could I look and how?
James
03-10-2008, 01:20 AM
Eric Haney is a retired U.S. Army soldier and author of "Inside Delta Force". He writes in his book (among other things) of chasing a guerilla group through the mountains in one of those Central American countries, killing the leader, and discovering that it was someone who was an American soldier.
Other old time Delta veterans have accused him of embellishing activities he was involved in and, at worst, completely fabricating them.
Eric Haney is a retired U.S. Army soldier and author of "Inside Delta Force". He writes in his book (among other things) of chasing a guerilla group through the mountains in one of those Central American countries, killing the leader, and discovering that it was someone who was an American soldier.
Other old time Delta veterans have accused him of embellishing activities he was involved in and, at worst, completely fabricating them.
Thinking about it, I believe that I have his book. Just out of curiosity, how reliable do you feel he and his book are?
SnakeBiteLeader
03-10-2008, 02:03 AM
Thinking about it, I believe that I have his book. Just out of curiosity, how reliable do you feel he and his book are?
I think you've already got your answer.
Shadowstorm
03-10-2008, 02:32 AM
That's why I never read these type military books, their are just too much criticism with these books sometime. The only books I read about the soldiers story if their well known.
cyberoverlord0
03-10-2008, 03:19 PM
All the pertanent info is probably still classified because it happened only so something years ago.
James
03-10-2008, 08:19 PM
Thinking about it, I believe that I have his book. Just out of curiosity, how reliable do you feel he and his book are?
It was certainly interesting, but I am curious by the criticism that has been leveled at it.
SouthernCross
03-11-2008, 12:22 AM
Just out of curiosity, what do you think happened? Also, didn't the guy write a book? "To be a Christian is to be a revolutionary", wasn't it called?
Don't know about the book, but that type of tittle is certainly related to the Liberation Theology, not exactly the kind of reading the church and the governments of that time and places were endorsing.
Why would the Nicaraguans send a advisor into Honduras with guerillas? If he was caught, wouldn't it have blown up in the Sandinstas's faces?
Because they couldn't care less about publicity. The Sandinista and Cuban support was public and wide open, so if the advisor/intelligent officer (as it seems to be his role according to Honduras) was in that raid, it would have been a reason for that.
Now, KVLG which is your interest in this particular subject??? since you keep asking questions but introducing new things in each new one. It seems that you are already researching.
Don't know about the book, but that type of tittle is certainly related to the Liberation Theology, not exactly the kind of reading the church and the governments of that time and places were endorsing.
From what I've seen, it was indeed Liberation Theology. I'm kind of surprised that some have attempted to combine Christianity with Communism, considering that the latter is pretty anti-religion.
Because they couldn't care less about publicity. The Sandinista and Cuban support was public and wide open, so if the advisor/intelligent officer (as it seems to be his role according to Honduras) was in that raid, it would have been a reason for that.
I suppose Havana and Managua figured that Washington already knew about their support for leftist guerillas, so they probably think that it wouldn't matter all that much.
Now, KVLG which is your interest in this particular subject??? since you keep asking questions but introducing new things in each new one. It seems that you are already researching.
Simple curiosity.
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