Brigade & Div Organisations...

[Britboy]

Hey there,

Think I've got a decent handle on how a battalion is set up, but higher formations have got the better of me. Having visited a few wiki pages and the British Army website I've got a rough idea, which I hope I can run past MP.net. Who knows, I might even learn something :oops:

Light Brigade (or Airborne or Marine...)

Brigade Headquarters Group (includes HQ & Signals personnel, Administrative/specialist personnel (i.e. MPs, Intelligence, G1 types), and a recce company/unit)
Infantry Battalions x3 (in light vehicles like Land Rovers/Hummvees)
Cavalry Battalion (using light armoured vehicles like Scimitars)
Artillery Battalion (using light towed field pieces like 105s)
Engineers Battalion
Composite Support Group (including medical & ambulance personnel, logistics & supply, and technical (i.e. REME/recovery & repair) types)

Armoured Brigade (or Panzer or whatever...)

Brigade Headquarters Group (as above...)
Infantry Battalions x2 (in Infantry Fighting Vehicles or APCs)
Cavalry Battalions x2 (in Main Battle Tanks)
Artillery Battalion (using Self Propelled guns)
Engineers Battalion
Composite Support Group (as above only armoured ambulances and recovery vehicles etc instead of usual wheeled versions)

I've little idea about Divisions except they feature more in the way of Arty (MLRS and air defence?) and more in the way of CSS units, and maybe a Reserve force.

Now I know there will be variations between nations but is that drastically wrong or am I on the right lines?

[10th albatross]

Are you talking about British military or a general discussion?

[Britboy]

Generally. I'm a Brit, so that's of interest, obviously. But most of the Bde structures I've been able to see online have been about US formations, on Wiki!

To be honest I'd be interested in whichever nation, as then we could see contending views of warfare/doctrine and how their forces are made up to implement this. I.e. I bet the Soviets had an extra tank-heavy formation knocking around for OMG duties.

Cheers
BB

[muck]

It is kinda difficult to tell about standartized structures of the German Army, because even if there may be some, the current structure is pretty random. Some divisions and brigades are rather weak, whilst others are pretty much oversized.

The strongest division within the German Army is 1st Armoured which is divided into a supportive part (4 Regiments, 13 battalions, 4 individual companies) and a combat element (2 Brigades with 5 battalions and 2 individual companies each). This division has about 22000 men.
The strongest Brigade within the German Army is 23rd Mountain Infantry which totals 8 battalions and 2 individual companies, about 6500 men.

The average division structure (11000-12000 men) is
Supportive segment (Brigade-equivalent): 2-4 Companies, 3-5 battalions
Combat segment: 2-3 Brigades, with 2-3 individual companies and 3-6 battalionsA regiment, either divided into battalions or not, is a rather uncommon form though and can only be found within supportive troops; In fact, there is only one infantry regiment in the German Army.
The current German Army consists of 6 divisions (1st, 10th, 13th, 14th, DSO, DLO), 14 brigades, 13 regiments, and about 70 battalions.

[Dragonscript]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Marine_Division_(United_States)

Here is the USMC 1st Division, but 2nd & 3rd are very similar:

~19,000 Marines

Elements:

Headquarters Battalion;
1st Marine Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Marine_Regiment_%28United_States%29)
5th Marine Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Marine_Regiment_%28United_States%29)
7th Marine Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._7th_Marine_Regiment)
11th Marine Regiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._11th_Marine_Regiment)
1st Combat Engineer Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Combat_Engineer_Battalion)
1st Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Light_Armored_Reconnaissance_Battalion)
1st Reconnaissance Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Reconnaissance_Battalion)
1st Tank Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Tank_Battalion)
3rd Assault Amphibian Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Assault_Amphibian_Battalion)
3rd Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_Light_Armored_Reconnaissance_Battalion)


Each country organizes their divisions differently, and even the US Army is different from the US Marines. While wiki is not the best source, it does provide some basic info.

[Royal]

If you're in the TA or OTC get a copy of TAMs - that will explain it all :)

Be aware that what is the doctrinally pure ORBAT of a Brigade and (even more so) of a Division will not be what is deployed on Ops. Particularly coalition Ops. Both will be vastly over heavy in terms of Staff and of J1 and J6 functions and will be woefully lacking in J2, J4 and J5 functions.

[Britboy]

Okay, the German model looks pretty complex...

Ta Royal, will try and get my grubby mitts on a set of those. I can see how you need more admin and less int/logs functions when in UK, but to me having a formation as ready as possible to deploy at short notice (a la Falklands) makes sense. So surely they should have the right number of G2, G4 etc for ops even if they are 'underemployed' in camp - and they might be able to leave some admin types behind (rear party?) if not needed... I s'pose it depends on the job really though doesn't it? If you need more punch you can just tag a spare battalion onto a brigade and hope it integrates well?

Cheers for the USMC orbat. You seem to have Regiments but no Brigades in this div though. Odd, here Regiments are almost a tribal identity/administrative grouping, whereas Battalions are the units that deploy. Do your regiments deploy, what do they consist of? I'm sure I've heard of U.S Brigade 'combat teams'...

Also, only 1 engr and 1 tank bn per division? And thats a lot of recce/armd recce too? I imagine the Amphibians are AAV7s, and a distinctly USMC thing - like the RM assault sqns, so that I get. But where's your Arty, Air Defence, decent amount of Cav and Engrs, wheres your field hospital, REME/technical bods, loggies, and all the weird and wonderful units like admin, int, MPs?

[baboon6]

In the USMC a lot of the units you mentioned are at the MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force) level. This diagram should help you understand how the Marine Division and MEF are organised.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1st_Marine_Expeditionary_Force.png

[Dragonscript]

Okay, the German model looks pretty complex...


Cheers for the USMC orbat. You seem to have Regiments but no Brigades in this div though. Odd, here Regiments are almost a tribal identity/administrative grouping, whereas Battalions are the units that deploy. Do your regiments deploy, what do they consist of? I'm sure I've heard of U.S Brigade 'combat teams'...

Also, only 1 engr and 1 tank bn per division? And thats a lot of recce/armd recce too? I imagine the Amphibians are AAV7s, and a distinctly USMC thing - like the RM assault sqns, so that I get. But where's your Arty, Air Defence, decent amount of Cav and Engrs, wheres your field hospital, REME/technical bods, loggies, and all the weird and wonderful units like admin, int, MPs?

One thing you have to remember is that Marines don't deploy as divisions but as MEUs or MEFs, which include a Division element (Combat), an Air Wing element (Air support) and a Force Service Support Group (FSSG) element (Everything else).

[Britboy]

Ahhh I see now, makes more sense!

Looking at that diagram, that is a LOT of air support. I know quite a bit of that is going to be preoccupied with sea control/air dominance/ship to objective movement and not all be doing transport helo/CAS duties, but in the modern scenarios the USMC finds itself in I suppose sea control et al is of much less importance.

Once more; a LOT of air support.

Regards
BB

[Royal]

There are no 'formed' brigades and certainly no formed divisions in the UK. Even 3 and 16 Bdes will take all and sundry to make up their HQ elements on Ops nowadays. The Falklands were a long time ago.

Alot of specialist assests (Sigs, Int, Med, Air Spt and even Logs) are too stretched to be assigned to a particular formation. They tag onto whatever deploys. I only deployed on Ops once with 3 Commando Brigade proper in a 20 year career.

[Britboy]

Are the CSS units really that stretched? Whats the usual scaling for them per Bde/Div?

I wouldn't have thought it'd be too difficult to find 1 HQ & Sigs Sqn, 1 RAMC Sqn, 1 RLC Sqn, 1 REME Sqn and a number of smaller detachments (Int, RMP, AGC etc) for every Bde. I mean how hard can it be for the Corps' to put up Coys when the Inf has got to put up ~3 Bns for a Bde?

Unless you require CSS Regts instead of Coys at the Bde level - but I thought you only got e.g. med regts, loggie regts etc at Div level - in which case you wouldn't need many of those either.

I know there are going to be other units too, but a fair proportion of those would be UK based (like National Comms for the R Sigs) and nondeployable so surely come 2nd to fighting formations? And posts could be filled by medically-downgraded troops or even civvies if needed to free up Corps members to go to Bdes/Divs.

I knew structure of formations wasn't set in stone, but I thought it was more a case of 'add a Bn here, lose a Bty there' starting from an established ORBAT rather than no formed formations at all and starting from scratch every time. It'd be kind've nice to already have a working relationship with others and SOPs in the formations rather than having to figure it out from square one every time.

[baboon6]

Well as an example here's 12 Mechanized Brigade's peacetime structure:

http://www.army.mod.uk/12brigade/index.htm

and here is how it was composed in Afghanistan last year:

Our forces in Afghanistan are currently over 6,000 strong and will increase to around 7,700 service personnel over the course of the year. The majority of this force is deployed in the South. In addition, the UK also provides service personnel in support of the Headquarters for the ISAF and for OEF, both of which are in Kabul.
The UK force deploying to Afghanistan over the course of 2007 includes elements of the following Royal Navy, Royal Marines, British Army and Royal Air Force units:
Helmand

Headquarters, 12 Mechanized Brigade (http://www.army.mod.uk/12brigade/index.htm)
228 Signal Squadron, Royal Signals (http://www.army.mod.uk/royalsignals/228sigsqn/index.htm)
Armoured Support Group, Royal Marines (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.2566)
Second Royal Tank Regiment (http://www.army.mod.uk/rac/regiments/2nd_rtr/index.htm)
1st Battalion The Royal Anglian Regiment (http://www.army.mod.uk/royalanglian/vikings/index.htm)
1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards (http://www.army.mod.uk/grenadier/index.htm)
1st Battalion The Scots Guards (http://www.army.mod.uk/scotsguards/1st_battalion.htm)
1st Battalion The Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters (http://www.army.mod.uk/wfr/index.html)
1st Battalion The Royal Welsh (http://www.army.mod.uk/infantry/regts/rw/index.htm)
5th Regiment Royal Artillery (http://www.army.mod.uk/5regtra/index.html)
19th Regiment Royal Artillery (http://www.army.mod.uk/19regtra/)
39th Regiment Royal Artillery (http://www.army.mod.uk/39regtra/index.htm)
Light Dragoons (http://www.army.mod.uk/ld/index.htm)
26 Engineer Regiment Royal Engineers (http://www.army.mod.uk/royalengineers/org/26regt/index.htm)
2 Signal Regiment Royal Signals (http://www.army.mod.uk/royalsignals/2sigregt/index.htm)
4 Logistic Support Regiment Royal Logistic Corps (http://www.army.mod.uk/rlc/units/4_log_sp_regt.htm)
4 General Support Medical Regiment Royal Army Medical Corps (http://www.army.mod.uk/ams/dms_units/4gsmedregt/index.htm)

[Britboy]

Woah thats a big Brigade! 5 Infantry Battalions, 2 Cavalry Regiments and 3 Artillery Regiments!

Is that actually a Brigade (albeit an Uber-Brigade), or is that a task force deployed to Helmand, featuring a Brigade and then several other Independent Battle Groups with other areas/roles?

Even looking at the peacetime structure of 12 Mech it looks big - a Tank Regiment and a Reconnaissance Regiment - surely an Armd Recce Sqn of Scimitars at Bde level, the Recce element of the Tank Regt itself, and Recce Platoons of the Infantry Battalions would be plenty of recce troops?

Especially when you consider recce from the air (UAV, fast jets, helos), the possibility of using other Brigade Units for a Recce in Force/by Fire, and the other coalition troops and assets in theatre.

Also the Bde is assigned full regiments from the Corps' for CSS - i.e. an RAMC regiment, a RLC regiment, etc. I thought a Company would be enough for Brigade support - i.e. you don't need a huge field hospital at Brigade, you just need somewhere that can look after lightly wounded troops until their returned to units, and can stabilise heavily wounded troops on their way back, i.e. to a huge field hospital that can look after the whole Division, and AEROMED back to UK if needed.

Same with the REME, aren't there first and second line repairs (I thought it was recovery and basic repairs at Bde and complex stuff at Div)? Keeping it small at Bde level would ensure you can move quickly and your support can keep up.

A whole Coy of RMP seems a lot too, maybe they'd be needed for policing the brigade units when in barracks, but in the field? Do they even take part in route marking these days, I thought our presence along routes was not permanent so as to provide less of an easy target.

Would a coy each of Med, Sigs, Loggies, REME and another coy of smaller corps (AGC, RMP, Int) be enough to keep a brigade supported fighting and moving, with the majority of in-depth stuff done by a Regt of these corps back at Division level? Seems to me the more support units you put into a Brigade, the less 'teeth to tail ratio' and fighting strength you have?

Also surely having so many support units within a fighting brigade near the FEBA means you actually need to assign combat units to protect them, thus taking combat units away from working towards what you want to achieve?

[nowcivvy]

A Division is Self contained to fight, move and supply itself. A Brigade is a component of the Div that has all the elements to fight (Inf Armour Engineers) but it can't do every thing for itself in terms of logistics, medical support, Air support ect. Modern Commanders use "Battle groups" that are stuctured to be more taylored to the tasks and terrain or logistical support available.

[Britboy]

Cheers nowcivvy, you put that better than I did.

BG: Steely eyed dealers of death, overwhelmingly combat arms, only a few CSS units so they can move fast and hit hard.

Bde: Mainly combat units, still able to move fast, but some CSS units for first line support/stabilisation/link between BG and Div.

Div: Still largely combat orientated, as of course its got ~3 of those Armd/Light Bdes in it - but chuck in a CSS Bde with full support assets included. Also how about an Arty Bde for massed fires and air defence, and Aviation units as assigned.

[Royal]

You're getting wrapped round the axle with some ideas of charging across the IGB against the 3rd Shock Army, or for that matter running arround in the desert playing Rommel against the Republican Guard.

We don't (read can't) do that any more. We have neither the men, the kit, nor the spares to do it. Telic 1 stripped the Army (the whole army) of AFV spares they're only now being replaced.

Even looking at the peacetime structure of 12 Mech it looks big - a Tank Regiment and a Reconnaissance Regiment - surely an Armd Recce Sqn of Scimitars at Bde level, the Recce element of the Tank Regt itself, and Recce Platoons of the Infantry Battalions would be plenty of recce troops?

Recce/ISTAR are the hardest working boys out there (with the possible exception of REME). Even with UAVs, the CVR(T) fleet sees more Ops than pretty much anything because they're flexible. They can do the recce tasks, but can also play as less threatening armour.

Also the Bde is assigned full regiments from the Corps' for CSS - i.e. an RAMC regiment, a RLC regiment, etc. I thought a Company would be enough for Brigade support - i.e. you don't need a huge field hospital at Brigade, you just need somewhere that can look after lightly wounded troops until their returned to units, and can stabilise heavily wounded troops on their way back, i.e. to a huge field hospital that can look after the whole Division, and AEROMED back to UK if needed.

An Arty Regiment needs 3 RLC Regiments to feed the guns alone. As to the hospitals - you need hospitals within the golden hour of the contact, be that by IRT Chinook, or by road. If you can't guarantee the IRT, you've got to have the assets spread arround. So, actually you do need a huge field hospital at Brigade and an even bigger one at or near the APOD/SPOD.

Same with the REME, aren't there first and second line repairs (I thought it was recovery and basic repairs at Bde and complex stuff at Div)? Keeping it small at Bde level would ensure you can move quickly and your support can keep up.

In theory REME Regiments have different roles depending on whether they're at Bde or Div. In reality the LADs and the CS Regiments have to be able to deal with pretty much everything (in a BG). Keeping it small at Bde level would ensure that nothing ever got fixed and Ops would grind to a halt. Forget moving quickly and keeping up with the cavalry. We operate from huge fixed bases (and varieties of FOBs). Once we're there, we stay there and work from them. The only boys who need to get out and keep up are the LADs and Recce Mechs.

A whole Coy of RMP seems a lot too, maybe they'd be needed for policing the brigade units when in barracks, but in the field? Do they even take part in route marking these days, I thought our presence along routes was not permanent so as to provide less of an easy target.

Soldiers still need policing in the field, particularly in the big log bases p-) The RMP also train their host nation counterparts, provide investigation, CP, route-recce, liaison - and of course Op Plunder :)

Would a coy each of Med, Sigs, Loggies, REME and another coy of smaller corps (AGC, RMP, Int) be enough to keep a brigade supported fighting and moving, with the majority of in-depth stuff done by a Regt of these corps back at Division level? Seems to me the more support units you put into a Brigade, the less 'teeth to tail ratio' and fighting strength you have?

No.

Bear in mind that Bde and Div HQs are probably co-located in the same building. As to teeth and tail, it has ever been so. Shiny bayonets are great, but they need clothing, equiping, moving, feeding, supplying, fixing, disciplining, briefing, training, leading and either burying lor taking home...

Also surely having so many support units within a fighting brigade near the FEBA means you actually need to assign combat units to protect them, thus taking combat units away from working towards what you want to achieve?

Yes.

[Alfacentori]

I don't know much about how Brigades or larger formations are organised being a civilian but I found this site that "seems" show how an Aussie Brigade is set out (13th Brigade, 2nd Division), I'm assuming that Australian Brigades would be similar size/organised to British ones?

http://www.defence.gov.au/army/hq13bde/


Alfa

[baboon6]

Woah thats a big Brigade! 5 Infantry Battalions, 2 Cavalry Regiments and 3 Artillery Regiments!

Is that actually a Brigade (albeit an Uber-Brigade), or is that a task force deployed to Helmand, featuring a Brigade and then several other Independent Battle Groups with other areas/roles?

Even looking at the peacetime structure of 12 Mech it looks big - a Tank Regiment and a Reconnaissance Regiment - surely an Armd Recce Sqn of Scimitars at Bde level, the Recce element of the Tank Regt itself, and Recce Platoons of the Infantry Battalions would be plenty of recce troops?

Especially when you consider recce from the air (UAV, fast jets, helos), the possibility of using other Brigade Units for a Recce in Force/by Fire, and the other coalition troops and assets in theatre.

Also the Bde is assigned full regiments from the Corps' for CSS - i.e. an RAMC regiment, a RLC regiment, etc. I thought a Company would be enough for Brigade support - i.e. you don't need a huge field hospital at Brigade, you just need somewhere that can look after lightly wounded troops until their returned to units, and can stabilise heavily wounded troops on their way back, i.e. to a huge field hospital that can look after the whole Division, and AEROMED back to UK if needed.

Same with the REME, aren't there first and second line repairs (I thought it was recovery and basic repairs at Bde and complex stuff at Div)? Keeping it small at Bde level would ensure you can move quickly and your support can keep up.

A whole Coy of RMP seems a lot too, maybe they'd be needed for policing the brigade units when in barracks, but in the field? Do they even take part in route marking these days, I thought our presence along routes was not permanent so as to provide less of an easy target.

Would a coy each of Med, Sigs, Loggies, REME and another coy of smaller corps (AGC, RMP, Int) be enough to keep a brigade supported fighting and moving, with the majority of in-depth stuff done by a Regt of these corps back at Division level? Seems to me the more support units you put into a Brigade, the less 'teeth to tail ratio' and fighting strength you have?

Also surely having so many support units within a fighting brigade near the FEBA means you actually need to assign combat units to protect them, thus taking combat units away from working towards what you want to achieve?

In certain cases not the entire regiment or battalion was deployed, just parts of it eg only one MLRS troop of 39 Regt RA was there. Besides the logistic set-up (over half the troops out there), which Royal has explained well, and gunners and engineers, this is how the brigade was configured for ops(eventually)-

Battle Group Centre- 1 WFR (renamed 2 MERCIAN while on tour)
Battle Group North- 1 Royal Anglian
Battle Group South- Light Dragoons
OMLT (Operational Mentoring & Liaison Team) BG- 1 Grenadier Guards
Regional Command South Reserve BG- 1 Royal Welsh [not always part of TF Helmand but dependent on it for log & admin support]
12 Brigade Recce Force
Right Flank, 1 Scots Guards [armoured inf coy in Warrior]
FALCON Sqn, 2 RTR [Mastiff]
Armoured Spt Coy RM [Viking]

The composition of BGs can and will change eg. for one op the Light Dragoons BG consisted of No.3 Coy 1 Grenadier Guards, B Coy 1 Royal Welsh, two coys of ANA soldiers and sappers from 30 Field Sqn. At other times during the tour the BG had under command B Sqn LD, A & C Coys 1 WFR and 12 BRF.

There were also Danish troops under command of TF Helmand, and at times others from other countries. Before anyone asks this is all info from the MOD website.

[Dragonscript]

One more thing to remember, the Marine Corps doesn't have medical personnel, that is the role of the Navy. Or, in a last ditch desperate situation the Army or Air Force, but only if we are forced.

[muck]

Woah thats a big Brigade! 5 Infantry Battalions, 2 Cavalry Regiments and 3 Artillery Regiments!
The question arises how much manpower those battalions and regiments do have each?

[angry cow]

These days, most units in any force are very specifically tailored for their region, support assets, and coalition partners. As such, you can really only talk about brigade and division structures in the broadest of terms, as they will be heavily modified when deploying. Maybe the brigade only needs 3 battalions to complete its mission in its designated Area of Responsibility, or maybe t needs 13 battalions to do the job. It all depends on the mission, here are some examples of structure being affected by outside influences.

Structure affected by REGION:

Perhaps an armored brigade is deploying to an urban environment? This frequently occurs in Iraq. They will likely deploy with far fewer tanks and artillery pieces than they would normally have, but will gain larger numbers of reconnaissance, aviation, military intelligence, and infantry assets. So they might lose an armor battalion, or an artillery battalion, but they will gain an infantry battalion from another brigade, or perhaps from the National Guard.

Structure affected by SUPPORT ASSETS:

Perhaps this unit in particularly is close to a major supply hub? So they don't require as many transport assets. They might lose some of these assets and instead give them to another Brigade which is across the city and has to go farther to reach the supply hub.

Structure affected by COALITION PARTNERS:

The unit maybe deploying with one or more other nations, all of which will have their own strengths, weaknesses, and rules of engagement. Say a foreign engineering battalion is attached, but their country only wants them to be used for reconstruction efforts and not for combat operations. The brigade might be able to send some of their engineering units to another brigade, but not all. Or another nation might only be sending a bomb disposal (EOD). Higher may want them to work in your area of responsibility, but might take an infantry company away from you in order to protect them.

Keep in mind these are particularly appropriate for Iraq, Afghanistan, and other peacekeeping efforts where the situation is known. Units deploying to invade a country will generally look like beefier versions of themselves in order to stay flexible in a rapidly changing combat environment. But you can't design a unit structure thats perfect for all or even most missions, the structure of a Corps, Division, Brigade, Battalion, Company, Platoon, Squad, or even Fire Team can often be modified (within reason) in order to better fit the mission.

[baboon6]

The question arises how much manpower those battalions and regiments do have each?

Units are usually brought up to something like war establishment before deploying, the personnel being reservists and/or borrowed from other units. As I wrote above, just because a unit is listed doesn't mean all of it actually deployed. The Light Dragoons for example only had Regt HQ, elements of HQ Sqn, B Sqn and part of D Sqn on that tour, so probably not even half the regt. The four infantry battalions (1 WFR, 1 Grenadier Guards, 1 Royal Anglian and later 1 Royal Welsh) would I assume have deployed pretty much intact. The Scots Guards deployed just one coy, and 2 RTR just one sqn. 19 Regt RA (usually using AS90 but in this case manning 105mm Light Guns) would have deployed most of its strength, with only small elements from 5 Regt RA (STA- patrols and various radars) and 39 Regt RA (MLRS).

[muck]

Structure affected by COALITION PARTNERS:


The German armed forces are categorized into Intervention Forces, Stablization Forces and Support Forces. Of course it wasn't capable to do that anyway, but the modern German military is not at all organized in order to act independently in operations beyond the scale of evacuation of German citizens. Intervention Forces are the best equipped and trained part of the Army and make up around 35000 soldiers,which are supposed to conduct evacuation operations in conflict areas or to take on an enemy in a high intensity conflict without immediate reinforcements by allied troops.
Stabilization Forces make up around 75000 soldiers and are supposed to conduct peace-enforcing operations and fight low intensity conflicts. 14000 soldiers shall be deployable at any given time for this purpose.
145000 soldiers and 35000 reservists belong to the Support Forces and their task is to support all ongoing operations be it abroad or in Germany. At least theoretically the Bundeswehr should be able to deploy 49000 soldiers at any given time; They already stuggle to maintain service with 10000 troops in foreign nations though.
Furthermore, this concept is pretty bowled down in reality because often it doesn't match political ideas how a German military contingent should look like, because of political caveats, and because the common practice to deploy mixed formations instead of whole units.

Being the most easy one of all three branches, the structure of the Army is still somewhat complex (Red: IF, Black: STF, Blue: SUF):

Army Command

- 1st Armoured Division
Div troops
9th Armoured Brigade
21th Armoured Brigade
-10th Armoured Division
Div Troops
12th Armoured Brigade
23rd Mountain Inf Brigade
- 13th Mech Inf Division
Div Troops
37th Mech Inf Brigade
41st Mech Inf Brigade
- 14th Mech Inf Division (to be disbanded and merged)
DivTroops
18th Armoured Brigade
- Airmobile Ops Division
Div Troops
Air Assault Brigade
14th Amoured Brigade
Army Troops Brigade
- Spec Ops Division
Div Troops
Special Forces
26th Airborne Brigade
31th Airborne Brigade
- F/G-Brigade
- MNCNE
MNCNE Support Brigade
- Eurocorps
- 1st GE/NL Corps

[Britboy]

Thanks for the insight gents. Alfa I notice in the Australian Brigade there is a 'CSS Battalion' which seems to be similar to how I originally thought formations worked... but there again I suppose you could say the CSS for that particular Brigade is only sustaining 2 inf Bn's, and a coy-sized element each of cav, arty and engineers, so you can get away with lots less CSS than say the force Baboon describes, or even the one I laid out in my original post...

Ta Muck for the German perspective, it looks like an unusual way to structure your forces though - having 35000 troops only, out of ~255000, that are ready for independent war fighting. I understand conscription is still in force in Germany though and I suppose this gives you particular constraints that have to be worked around, such as political sensitivities of deploying conscripts overseas or on active service, and their length of service would dictate how long they can be trained without eating into their productive time in service afterwards...

Thats a lot of information Baboon - I suppose some of those units can be considered 'theatre assets' as I've heard the Vikings are employed in Afg pretty much constantly, and thats meaning lots of time overseas for the Armoured Support branch. As for the different units deployed, seems quite a mix - but I suppose it all comes down to what's required in that particular area at that time.

AC and Royal - all of what you say makes perfect sense to me, for the operations that we are engaged in at the moment. Of course we need to be able to carry out COIN and police actions, but does that mean we have to give up our ability to carry out other types of warfare?

I suppose what this really all does boil down to is views of warfare and resources. If we have really entered a new age of warfare where terrorism and guerilla warfare are the be-all and end-all, then what is happening overseas at the moment should be the model for our future capabilities; as Royal says, working from FOBs, training & liaison with the host nation, COIN.

But if we don't discount the possibility of conventional warfare taking place again, we will go down the route AC mentions of altering existing force structure and training for the types of conflict like Iraq/Afg, but still having the traditional formations and capabilites as our modus operandi so we could put, for example, an armoured division into the field.

[Hellfish6]

At the risk of complicating this even further...

Here are a couple examples from 1989. A British division and an American division. Look at how the brigades and support assets are organized. The US Army division typically had four brigades - three combat brigades (armored, mechanized or infantry) and an aviation brigade. The support elements either belonged to the brigade (i.e. Forward Support Battalions) or were attached to division HQ (like the military intel and signal battalions).

7th Infantry Division (Light) - Ft Ord, CA:

1) 1st Brigade:
a) 1 -9th Light Infantry Battalion:
b) 2 -9th Light Infantry Battalion:
c) 3 -9th Light Infantry Battalion:
2) 2nd Brigade:
a) 3 -17th Light Infantry Battalion:
b) 4 -17th Light Infantry Battalion:
c) 2 -27th Light Infantry Battalion:
3) 3rd Brigade:
a) 4 -21st Light Infantry Battalion:
b) 5 -21st Light Infantry Battalion:
c) 3 -27th Light Infantry Battalion:
4) 7th Combat Aviation Brigade:
a) 2nd Squadron, 9th Cavalry Regiment:
b) 1 -123rd Attack Helicopter Battalion: 21 AH1F, 13 OH58C, 3 UH1H
c) C Co, 123rd Aviation Regiment: 15 UH60A
d) D Co, 123rd Aviation Regiment: 15 UH60A
5) 7th ID Divarty:
a) 2 -8th Field Artillery Battalion: 18 M102
b) 6 -8th Field Artillery Battalion: 18 M102
c) 7 -15th Field Artillery Battalion: 18 M102
d) 5 -15th Field Artillery Regiment: 18 M198
6) 7th ID Discom:
7) 13th Combat Engineer Battalion: 18 SEE, 6 ACE
8) 2 -62nd Air Defense Battalion: 18 Towed Vulcan, 40 Stinger
9) 107th Military Intelligence Battalion (CEWI):
10) 7th Military Police Company:



4th Armoured Division - Hammersmith, UK:

1) 11th Armoured Brigade - Minden, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The 3rd Royal Tank Regiment: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) 1st Bn, Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (from 19th Brigade, 1/89):
c) 2nd Bn, The Queens Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
2) 20th Armoured Brigade - Detmold, FRG: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan, and 4 Ferret
a) The Blues and Royals: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
b) The 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards: 56 Challenger, 4 Sultan, 8 Scorpion, 10 FV432, 8 Ferret
c) 2nd Bn, The Royal Irish Rangers: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
3) 19th Infantry Brigade: Stationed in UK.
4) 4th Division Artillery Group - Paderborn, FRG:
a) 3rd Field Regiment, Royal Artillery: 24 M109A2
b) 47th Field Regiment, Royal Artillery – Guterslough: 24 Abbot 105mm SP howitzers
Attached: 21 Battery: Javelin
5) 35th Field Regiment, Royal Engineers - Hamlen, FRG: 30 FV432, 12 Spartan, 12 AVRE, and 12 AVLB
6) 4th Regiment, Army Air Corps - Dortmund, FRG: 12 Lynx (TOW), 12 Gazelle, + 1 more squadron (12 Gazelle or Lynx(TOW))


Remember, these are from 1989 and don't necessarily reflect the structure today. I'm showing you so you can see the historical context.
From: http://www.microarmormayhem.com/NATO_ORDER_OF_BATTLE_mod_8.doc

[baboon6]

Thanks for the insight gents. Alfa I notice in the Australian Brigade there is a 'CSS Battalion' which seems to be similar to how I originally thought formations worked... but there again I suppose you could say the CSS for that particular Brigade is only sustaining 2 inf Bn's, and a coy-sized element each of cav, arty and engineers, so you can get away with lots less CSS than say the force Baboon describes, or even the one I laid out in my original post...

.

Thats a lot of information Baboon - I suppose some of those units can be considered 'theatre assets' as I've heard the Vikings are employed in Afg pretty much constantly, and thats meaning lots of time overseas for the Armoured Support branch. As for the different units deployed, seems quite a mix - but I suppose it all comes down to what's required in that particular area at that time.

.

Yes, the Armoured Spt Coy have been taking strain, so RAC soldiers are now being trained on the Viking, specifically A Sqn QRL.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/MarinesBackInTheVikingstheyArePhenomenal.htm

Mastiff is manned by RAC squadrons in rotation though I did read somewhere that the drivers are actually from the RLC, the cav boys providing the commanders and top cover gunners. Warrior will also stay in theatre and be manned by different armoured inf coys in rotation.

[Britboy]

Was the concept in the American Army to 'beef up' Light Divisions by addition of extra assets so they can then do more?

I read a book called Combined Arms Warfare in the Twentieth Century (forgot the author atm) for my course, which said in the 80s(?) the US Army wanted Divisions based on Light Infantry that could quickly deploy overseas to take part in interventions and operations in terrain not suited to armoured forces (i.e. jungles, mountains). As most of the Army had gone down the Armoured/Mechanised route for the NATO/Central Europe defensive role, the concept was little or no vehicles = strategic mobility by air, fast. As opposed to needing a deepwater port and having to wait for months for the armour to arrive by ship.

Now this was good for that role, but apparently the command also wanted a 'jack of all trades' formation that could also take its place in Germany against the Soviets due to the high attrition expected. So they added 'corps plugs' to the LID, like an Aviation or Arty Brigade, transport companies, and other things, so that it could act as a motorised/light mechanised force too.

It just struck me that when the US Div you put up had a whole Aviation Bde, maybe that was the addition to enable light forces to fight in a mechanised war in Germany (although it seems to have SH a lot more than AH)...

But would this concept have actually worked? Can you replace IFVs/APCs/MBTs with some helos and light armour and essentially rely on a lot of ATGMs to give a degree of survivability rather than a purpose-built armoured force?

Cheers
BB

[Royal]

AC and Royal - all of what you say makes perfect sense to me, for the operations that we are engaged in at the moment. Of course we need to be able to carry out COIN and police actions, but does that mean we have to give up our ability to carry out other types of warfare?

I suppose what this really all does boil down to is views of warfare and resources. If we have really entered a new age of warfare where terrorism and guerilla warfare are the be-all and end-all, then what is happening overseas at the moment should be the model for our future capabilities; as Royal says, working from FOBs, training & liaison with the host nation, COIN.

From a purely UK point of view, that is what we have done. We could not carry out an Op such as Telic 1, let alone Op Corporate, with our current forces. We don not have the naval power, airlift, support helecopters, armour or med support necessary. It's debateable whether we have the SF or Int, or even the infantry. Certainly we would have to pull out of both Iraq and Afghanistan to do so.

[Hellfish6]

It just struck me that when the US Div you put up had a whole Aviation Bde, maybe that was the addition to enable light forces to fight in a mechanised war in Germany (although it seems to have SH a lot more than AH)...

But would this concept have actually worked? Can you replace IFVs/APCs/MBTs with some helos and light armour and essentially rely on a lot of ATGMs to give a degree of survivability rather than a purpose-built armoured force?

Cheers
BB

The aviation brigade largely provided operational mobility to the division. The LID concept was more a product of Vietnam than it was a product of planning for WWIII. I think most war plans didn't have ANY light infantry divisions going to Central Europe to be reinforcement. Most of them were contingency planned to go to Norway, the Middle East (Iran) or Korea in the event of a shooting war with the Soviets. In those theaters, it was thought, if they'd fight the Soviets, they'd do it in difficult terrain for armored vehicles and against second or third line Soviet forces (T-62s, not T-80s).

As for your second part, there really wasn't any light armor to speak of in LIDs. This was long before the time anyone thought of armoring humvees. Can a light, mobile force of ATGMs fight off a mechanized foe? I don't think so. Certainly not on the scope of the Soviet threat. Once infantry gets dropped off by their helicopter, they're just infantry. They're slow and vulnerable. Aside from the TOW, US ground mounted anti-tank weapons have always been pretty dismal, at least until the Javelin showed up. The Dragon ATGM only had a range of 1000m, and it's accuracy and stopping power were dubious (I was a Dragon gunner for a while).

Today, I'm willing the bet that a Stryker brigade could be pretty effective against a mechanized foe. They're very mobile, and have a lot of anti-tank assets in their inventory (IIRC each Stryker is fitted for a Javelin launcher and 3-4 missiles - that gives you 12-16 missiles per infantry platoon, plus AT4 rockets...). The Stryker MGSes aren't too useful against armor (not enough ammunition) but all in all, the recon assets, mobility, and flexibility of the structure could seriously ruin a mechanized foe in the right circumstances.

[muck]

.
Ta Muck for the German perspective, it looks like an unusual way to structure your forces though - having 35000 troops only, out of ~255000, that are ready for independent war fighting. I understand conscription is still in force in Germany though and I suppose this gives you particular constraints that have to be worked around, such as political sensitivities of deploying conscripts overseas or on active service, and their length of service would dictate how long they can be trained without eating into their productive time in service afterwards....

Well, about 200000 servicemen of this number are professional soldiers, no conscripts. They indeed have to work around the conscripts in standing units, but that's no big deal either because the common practice of throwing outfits together to form a deployable unit. Open gaps of conscript soldiers can be filled with reservists as well.
To deploy homogeneous units of more than platoon size is rather uncommon, so they simply take some platoons from different companies of one battalion and mix a new deployable company together.

This sort of structure seems pretty suitable to me for conventional peacekeeping operations in cooperation with contingents of allied nations. Being concepted as a purebred self defense organization once, the Bundeswehr had never the ability to wage war abroad anyhow.

In practice, it becomes often overthrown by politics as I've said before.