Army takes 416 away from unit!

[OUTLAW-ONE]

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/03/Army_no416s_031008w/

The Army has stripped the Asymmetric Warfare Group of its weapon of choice — the Heckler & Koch 416 — saying that its mission requires the unique outfit to carry the standard issue M4 carbine.
The decision reverses a policy that allowed the AWG to buy 416s instead of carrying M4s when it was established three years ago to help senior Army leaders find new tactics and technologies to make soldiers more lethal in combat.
Members of the AWG have declined to comment on the issue, but sources in the community told Army Times that the unit fought to keep its several hundred 416s, arguing that they outperform the Army’s M4 and require far less maintenance.
In a response to a March 6 Army Times query, the Army acknowledged initial approval of the AWG’s move to the 416.
“The AWG is empowered to procure, on a limited basis, select non-standard equipment to assist in identifying capability gaps and advise on the development of future requirements. To this end, the Asymmetric Warfare Group did purchase H&K 416 rifles,” said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Martin Downie.
“The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures. In this capacity, the use of the standard issue M4 is required. In support of this mission set, the decision was made to transition to the M4 and the AWG is now turning in its H&K rifles.”
This is the latest round of controversy surrounding the M4 since late November, when the weapon finished last in an Army reliability test against several other carbines.
The M4 suffered more stoppages than the combined number of jams by the three other competitors — the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the H&K 416.
Army weapons officials agreed to perform the dust test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army Special Forces units to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Since then, Coburn has questioned the Army’s plans to spend more than $300 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009 rather than considering newer and possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.
Army officials have downplayed the test results, maintaining that soldiers using the M4 in combat praised the weapon in a recent study by the Center for Naval Analysis.
But this isn’t the first time the M4’s performance has come under fire.
U.S. Special Operations Command decided nearly four years ago that it wanted a better weapon than the M4. After a competition, it awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace all of the command’s M4s.
But even prior to USSOCOM’s decision, the Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that its piston operating system reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.
The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Weapon experts say the M4’s system of blowing gas directly into the receiver of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication and causes excessive wear on parts.
The AWG followed Delta’s example when it stood up in March 2005 to advise the Army’s senior leadership on how to identify and counter emerging threats on the battlefield. With Army approval, the unit bought several hundred 416s for its members to carry when they deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots.
Many senior sergeants in the AWG were angered that soldiers in the unit had to turn in their 416s, a process that began last fall, said a U.S. Military officer with knowledge the special operations and AWG communities.
“They were outraged,” he told Army Times. “It’s a reduction in capability. It’s a waste of money that was already spent, and it makes the job more difficult since [the M4] is much more maintenance-intensive.”

[Hispeed1]

Uh-oh... Aren't they getting some FNH SCAR-L's soon?

[Geborendafur]

Quite cool, I love the 416, it's quite an impressive weapon.

And the repro from VFC too.

[Hippo]

And the repro from VFC too.

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/img/facepalm.jpeg

http://www.mentalfloss.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/llama.gif

[SMGLee]

Quite cool, I love the 416, it's quite an impressive weapon.

And the repro from VFC too.

What is VFC?

[Geborendafur]

Hey sorry guys.. Just wanted to say my opinion ^^"

Thanks for the pictures, and excuse me for my comment.

[James]

I recently attended an HK416 armorer's course, and learned that there is basically no support from HK for any of these weapons that have been procured by the military, LE, or government agencies. No spare parts, nothing. I wonder if that is the reason the AWG was made to turn them in.

[D-gin]

What is VFC?


Airsoft.........

[Geborendafur]

Airsoft.........

Yeah sorry for that.

Anyway I've got a question on the (true) Hk416:
I've read that the weapon's got a system that allows a "non heating" (well sorry if my english is a little bit bad), system that was similar to what germans made with stg44, is that true?

Thanks for your answers

[Albatross]

I recently attended an HK416 armorer's course, and learned that there is basically no support from HK for any of these weapons that have been procured by the military, LE, or government agencies. No spare parts, nothing. I wonder if that is the reason the AWG was made to turn them in.


wtf??? That is just bad business, is this how they always go about things liek this? Like selling a car then when it breaks down you just have to tell the customer "sorry bub, no spare parts. none. don't exist". Is there a plan in place to get a support system once they have it out in full use? I am completely amazed by this.

btw, how was the course?

[SMGLee]

Support should be forth coming once Wilcox get set up with the 416/417 machinery.

Wilcox recently finished a 100m underground shooting range right underneath the parking lot.

a media day will be scheduled by HK/Wilcox in order to show off the new facility and possible annoucement of the 416/417 for the US market.

Hints has been passed around for an US release date of 3rd quarter 2008.

[James]

wtf??? That is just bad business, is this how they always go about things liek this? Like selling a car then when it breaks down you just have to tell the customer "sorry bub, no spare parts. none. don't exist". Is there a plan in place to get a support system once they have it out in full use? I am completely amazed by this.

btw, how was the course?

The course was pretty good. It's really a simple, straightforward design.

Apparently HK doesn't have a very good reputation when it comes to customer service. What I heard specific to the 416 is that they are currently putting all the parts they produce into new rifles; if you have a 416 and it goes down, you need to send it all the way back to the factory in Germany for repair.

Certain things about it are frustrating, too - to take apart the rear sight, you need to use a proprietary tool available only from HK that costs in the neighborhood of $70. Regular screwdriver? Nein! To change the barrel, you need a proprietary tool that costs around $500. It's aggravating. A classmate told me that they are unreliable if you use anything other than the new, heavy weight HK magazine - another proprietary product that is expensive.

Based on what I learned in the course, I am still a fan of the regular M16 over the 416. When/if HK can be bothered to support their product, I might reconsider.

[gaijinsamurai]

That sucks, James. Would make me opt for the regular M16/M4 over the H&K too.

[OUTLAW-ONE]

tell me about it. I wanted to get a spare bolt for my 416 just in case, I am able to get one but it will cost me almost $300! just for the bolt! I was able to get a spare piston & firing pin for $170. Hopefully when the HK/Wilcox thing goes thru, I can get some spare parts cheaper.

[Catch22]

No word on any support/parts problems around these parts yet. Perhaps the Europe has a better service terms than US. As for the questionable reliability troubles James mentioned - none was reported with either HK, GI magazines. Hopefully to test P-Mags from Magpull soon.

[James]

No word on any support/parts problems around these parts yet. Perhaps the Europe has a better service terms than US. As for the questionable reliability troubles James mentioned - none was reported with either HK, GI magazines. Hopefully to test P-Mags from Magpull soon.

To clarify my earlier post - HK customer service (and not just for the 416, but everything) is horrible in the U.S. I've heard that they're a lot more easy going with the EU.

The reliability troubles I heard about with non-HK magazines came from a field user in Afghanistan, not an actual test.

[desertwarrior123]

Im dissappointed by that, you'd think HK would have seen the need for spare parts. Hell of a good weapon though

[OUTLAW-ONE]

To clarify my earlier post - HK customer service (and not just for the 416, but everything) is horrible in the U.S. I've heard that they're a lot more easy going with the EU.

The reliability troubles I heard about with non-HK magazines came from a field user in Afghanistan, not an actual test.


I wouldnt say its horrible. Everytime I had to deal with them I never had any problems. I sent them my HK45 to have it converted to LEM and I had it back within a week. but I have heard the horror stories. I think most people say that HK cust. service is bad because it is true that HK USA is not that U.S. civilian friendly not to mention the fact that almost all the HK long guns are never offered to civilians. But thats not because of HK its because of our laws on importing long guns from outside the U.S. also everytime our military puts out a weapons contract, HK comes thru with a prototype but the the DOD pulls the contract. the most recent was the JCP program.

I think it says alot about the current M4/M16 system when our most elite troops are using the 416 and the rest of USSOCOM is going with the SCAR. And lets not forget that the M16 weapons system has been around since the 50's. Its time to move on, there are better systems out there and not just the 416. Problem is the Brass is waiting for some high tech laser rifle grenade launcher XM25 thingy. And dont get me started on the crappy M9. IMO instead of buying millions of dollars worth of new M4's and fighter jets we dont need, and use that money to buy 416 or LWRC upper kits or SCAR's for the entire U.S. Military. And dust off the M1911A1's or get a new .45 like the HK45 or Glock 21SF. but who the hell am I...forget it.

[Flea NL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZpZryZEiY4

some action from the HK 416

[Albatross]

I think it says alot about the current M4/M16 system when our most elite troops are using the 416 and the rest of USSOCOM is going with the SCAR. And lets not forget that the M16 weapons system has been around since the 50's. Its time to move on, there are better systems out there and not just the 416. Problem is the Brass is waiting for some high tech laser rifle grenade launcher XM25 thingy. And dont get me started on the crappy M9. IMO instead of buying millions of dollars worth of new M4's and fighter jets we dont need, and use that money to buy 416 or LWRC upper kits or SCAR's for the entire U.S. Military. And dust off the M1911A1's or get a new .45 like the HK45 or Glock 21SF. but who the hell am I...forget it.


qft.......... The M9, what a pos.

[Power_serj]

If the Army is going to get a new rifle, all the services should have a say. The whole military should collaborate and choose a new rifle to best serve all the branches of the United States military. Also, if the US is going for a new rifle, it should be completely new, not a 416, which is an improved M4.

Also, the United States should look at a new standard round, such as though rounds that are in between 7.62 and 5.56. Get the range of a 5.56 and accuracy, but a stopping power closer to the 7.62.

[-[Crosshair]-]

Are you subtly talking about the 6.8SPC? :cantbeli:

[Sheikh Al Stranghi]

Is stopping power really that important as long as it's more than a 9mm? I would think penetrating power is more important? (to get through cover)
In my experience the M16/4 series is quite good, and I would be happy with an improved M4. The M16 series has come a long way since the early prototypes.

But I've never been in combat, so I wouldn't know.

[OUTLAW-ONE]

If the Army is going to get a new rifle, all the services should have a say. The whole military should collaborate and choose a new rifle to best serve all the branches of the United States military. Also, if the US is going for a new rifle, it should be completely new, not a 416, which is an improved M4.

Also, the United States should look at a new standard round, such as though rounds that are in between 7.62 and 5.56. Get the range of a 5.56 and accuracy, but a stopping power closer to the 7.62.

Why would the U.S. Military make a completely new battle rifle??? so they can waste millions on development, testing, feedback,etc? that doesnt make any sense. If that where to happen the military would hold open testing on different companies submissions. Exactly what USSOCOM did with the SCAR. And a improved version of the M4 like the HK416, LWRC, SCAR-L/H is exactly what we need. There is nothing really ''wrong'' with the M4. but there are ''better'' systems out there. And if the DOD and top brass are so in love with Colt then get them to Field their piston op gas system M4. all new rifle systems use piston operation, all the reliable ones anyway. IMO the SCAR or 416 uppers on M4 lowers are the way to go until the XM25 is ready.

[Loomisfarms01]

I recently attended an HK416 armorer's course, and learned that there is basically no support from HK for any of these weapons that have been procured by the military, LE, or government agencies. No spare parts, nothing. I wonder if that is the reason the AWG was made to turn them in.


Where did you take the armorer's class?

I will have to call BS on several of these statements. ANYBODY can get spare parts for their HK416, even civilians. Hell, Center Mass Firearms (www.centermassfirearms.com (http://www.centermassfirearms.com)) has most everything in stock. I've also never had a problem getting good CS from HK. I simply call them and they either answer my questions or call me back with the answer very shortly. To be honest I think alot of this "HK sucks at CS" stuff is either old news or recent "Internet forum folklore". Some of it probably comes from those with an agenda.

AWG is not turning in their HK416's voluntarily. Big Army is making them. From what I've heard none of them are happy about it. That says about everything anybody could ask about the HK416.

[James]

Where did you take the armorer's class?

That's not really any of your business.


I will have to call BS on several of these statements.

I don't what basis you have for calling "BS". I was in the class and I know what I was told; you were not there.

If you've has a good experience with HK, I'm happy for you. I haven't had any (I own none of their products) so I can only share what I heard. That website you linked doesn't seem to sell any 416 parts, just pistol stuff. I am particularly interested in finding out how to procure a spare barrel.

[Cam]

Don't get me wrong... I play airsoft and all, but Airsoft should stay in it's section and vise versa.

Anyways, I think the Hk416 seems to be an excellent rifle. I've only gotten to hold one at a convention, but from what I've researched and seen, they seem to outperfom the Current M4 in use by the US Military.

I wonder why they don't test the MASDA? Or Perhaps the new 6.8 (I think thats what it is.....) that is between 5.56 and 7.62?

[sergentdarmes]

Several units in Europe that can choose their weapons, and the Norvegian Army (by the way, this country has the highest GNP per citizen in Europe, so it is NOT a question of lowest bidder) have chosen the HK 416 over other current offerings like HK G36, Colt Canada C7 C8, FN 2000 ..
So it cannot be a "just enough for government's work" weapon. In particular at VERY low temperatures.
Each weapon is a compromise between many qualities, but for a 5,56 NATO rifle this one seems to gather very favorable opinions from serious operators.

[dobrodan]

Several units in Europe that can choose their weapons, and the Norvegian Army (by the way, this country has the highest GNP per citizen in Europe, so it is NOT a question of lowest bidder) have chosen the HK 416 over other current offerings like HK G36, Colt Canada C7 C8, FN 2000 ..
So it cannot be a "just enough for government's work" weapon. In particular at VERY low temperatures.
Each weapon is a compromise between many qualities, but for a 5,56 NATO rifle this one seems to gather very favorable opinions from serious operators.

Well, ALL the Norwegian 416s were recently sent back to Germany because of some problems with the trigger-mechanism...

So, the eagerly awaited 416 most likely won´t be ready until the fall...

[Rawhide 37]

Unfortunately our government is stingy and don't like buy weapons (at least generally speaking) from foreign companies. They would rather that money go into American companies. Now, why Colt, in conjunction with our military has not fielded it rod piston system (or whatever its called) is beyond.

One quick question, do we know if the new M4s being purchased incorporate the old gas system or that new rod system.

Lastly, I'd like to through my two cents in on what our new battle rifle should be (not that it will change anything but...just for the sake of argument, oh and I'm no gun expert either, everything about to be said is knowledge acquired by what I've read/"researched"). Anyways, I think that if the US military was going to do a make over of its primary assault rifles, we should move toward the LWRC M6A2 with the 6.8mm Rem round. The LWRC is a solid platform, the company is "local" (US company), prior service guy owns it. It uses the rod system in place of the gas operating system. It comes in 5.56, 6.8, and 7.62. I think that the 6.8 is best, it has range, you can carry plenty of it, but it also has knock down power. But like I said, my two cents...

You all have a great day and God bless!

[Ratamacue]

Please, oh dear God please, don't turn this into another 5.56 vs. 6.8 thread.

[Rawhide 37]

Thats not entirely in my control at this point, but if it does, you have my apologies, being new, I didn't realize that was a problem, again, sorry.

[sergentdarmes]

With the exange rate, I think it is not cost effective for the US to buy products made in the EURO zone, so even if there wasn't a "buy american" overt or covert policy HK will not sell rifles to federal agencies.
About a change of caliber for all US forces, it seems difficult to do it in the middle of two wars. Will a new standard be accepted by NATO countries who have just switched over 5,56, or maybe they will be told to get lost and why not ?

[Chops]

Where did you take the armorer's class?

I will have to call BS on several of these statements. ANYBODY can get spare parts for their HK416, even civilians. Hell, Center Mass Firearms (www.centermassfirearms.com (http://www.centermassfirearms.com)) has most everything in stock. I've also never had a problem getting good CS from HK. I simply call them and they either answer my questions or call me back with the answer very shortly. To be honest I think alot of this "HK sucks at CS" stuff is either old news or recent "Internet forum folklore". Some of it probably comes from those with an agenda.

AWG is not turning in their HK416's voluntarily. Big Army is making them. From what I've heard none of them are happy about it. That says about everything anybody could ask about the HK416.

You're back again?

The guy you just called BS on has multiple tours of Astan under his belt and besides which is a moderator here.

With no disrespect to them, AWG also prefer the 416 as it's a high speed covet item due to the other users of the platform.

[conefire]

lol politics. To some extent you might blame armytimes and their M4-hate-campaign though.

[Rawhide 37]

Good point conefire

[Loomisfarms01]

You're back again?

The guy you just called BS on has multiple tours of Astan under his belt and besides which is a moderator here.

With no disrespect to them, AWG also prefer the 416 as it's a high speed covet item due to the other users of the platform.

What does having "Multiple Tours In Astan" have to do with knowing ANYTHING about the HK416?

Hint: He was posting incorrect info and I corrected him w/ sources.

[Chops]

Hint- you have two pages of infractions. And Christ you **** me. Thin ice

Hint- James knows his ****, was certainly on the 416 course and I know him personally. You could be Barney Rubble for all I know. The multiple tours comment means that I trust his judgement far more than some internet loudmouth.

Hint- pull your head in a bit sunshine and lose the arrogance.

[James]

Hint: He was posting incorrect info and I corrected him w/ sources.

I wasn't posting incorrect info - I was passing along what I was told in an HK416 armorer's course I attended. Like I said earlier, if you've had better luck, I'm happy for you.

Just let it go.

[Albatross]

It sounds to me like there may be a market for 416 parts in the states. Anyone feel like going into business?

[3rdMillhouse]

One quick question, do we know if the new M4s being purchased incorporate the old gas system or that new rod system.


Gas impingment. The US Army is happy with M4s system, and does not intend to switch to a gas rod system, they'd rather wait for some marvelous breakthrough in weapons technology (whatever that means).

[Ratamacue]

Gas impingment. The US Army is happy with M4s system, and does not intend to switch to a gas rod system, they'd rather wait for some marvelous breakthrough in weapons technology (whatever that means).It means that they don't want to spend billions of dollars holding a competition, then re-equipping and re-training the entire Army with a new rifle when the M4 still works adequately, and a weapon that actually increases the effectiveness of soldiers (e.g. weight, lethality, etc.) is potentially just around the corner.

[3rdMillhouse]

It means that they don't want to spend billions of dollars holding a competition, then re-equipping and re-training the entire Army with a new rifle when the M4 still works adequately, and a weapon that actually increases the effectiveness of soldiers (e.g. weight, lethality, etc.) is potentially just around the corner.

Yeah, right. Pardon me for believing otherwise.

So, getting back to the subject at hand:

“The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures. In this capacity, the use of the standard issue M4 is required. In support of this mission set, the decision was made to transition to the M4 and the AWG is now turning in its H&K rifles.”

One can't come up with a lamer excuse than this one for ditching the HK-416. First SOFD-Delta, now the AWG.

[Geronimo2Alpha]

I had the opportunity to casually fondle the AWG 416s while they were supporting us in Iraq. They were a little heavier than my M4 (granted I wasn't mounting a PEQ/PAQ at the time), but considering the sort of gunk my low-use weapon got just sitting around, a gas-piston system would have been preferable. Given AWG's sort of schedule while they were in/around/off-in-the-woods while in the AO and equal time spend giving classes I can vouch for their insistence on something a little easier to maintain.

[Ought Six]

HK416 Carbine/SBR Confiscation Program Unleashed on U.S. Army AWG (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1111)


by David Crane
Defense Review
Thursday, March 20


DefenseReview was one of the first publications to report on the results of the Fall 2007 M4 Carbine "Extreme Dust Test". We published that story on December 18, 2007. Well, on December 19, 2007, we received two email communications (below) from one of our professional contacts in U.S. Army Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG), who shed some light on an HK416 confiscation program that was already in process as we were reporting the test results. This process, i.e. total HK 416 confiscation from AWG operators, has since been completed, whereby AWG warfighter were forced to turn in all their 416s (HK416s) (approx. 240+ guns, total).

Needless to say, our contact and the rest of the boys in AWG are not happy about this.

Below are the two email communications we received. Both messages have been sanitized, and the second message has been slightly modified for readability. Here:
"From: XXXX
Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 8:44 AM
Subject: M4 vs M4A1
To: David Crane

David,

The AWG is losing its HK416 carbines and they are being replaced by M4s [Colt M4 Carbine] – not M4A1s [Colt M4A1 Carbine], but [just plain ol'] M4s. We’ve already turned in 30 to Lexington Army Depot and will continue to turn in 30 per week until all 240-something HK416s are turned in.

We see this as a huge waste of time and resources, with the end product being a less effective unit. There was a lot of range time and setup time that went into every one of those weapons. And now we’ll have to do the same thing with these M4s.

It wouldn’t be so bad if we were getting M4A1s. Most of us have had M4A1s, and although it isn’t as good as a HK416, it was workable. It was also very easy to get waivers to replace the trigger with a KAC match grade trigger.

With the M4 we do not have that capability. Nobody makes a match grade 3-round burst trigger (nor would it be cost effective). Therefore we cannot put a better trigger in the M4. If we put an aftermarket trigger in the M4 it would give it an auto capability vice a burst capability, thereby changing the “function” or designation of the weapon (which is frowned on). What’s worse is the 3-round burst trigger of the M4 is the most atrocious trigger on the market. It has 3 varying trigger pulls, all of them hard (between 11-14 lb) and the take up is different every 3rd round as well. At least the M4A1 has an 8-11 pound trigger pull that is very consistent, due to its full auto trigger pack. In order replace any functioning component of these weapons we have to file for a waiver (gas piston upper, free-float forend, etc.) and it is very difficult. But the trigger is the most important deficiency. We can’t do much about that burst trigger.

-XXXX" The above message was followed by the following message:
"From: XXXX
Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2007 at 8:35 PM
Subject: M4 vs M4A1 part 2 (the HK416 turn in)
To: David Crane

David,

Some of these facts may not be perfectly accurate due to the second-hand nature of all of these conversations and speculations on the motives of others. Apparently when a bill came to the Senate with $375,000,000 going to Colt for the continuation of arming the US Army with the M4, Senator Coburn (R-OK) questioned the bill and took action as much as he could. He asked the Army why they are continuing with the M4 program when he had heard how unreliable it was from US Soldiers and also asked why elite units like Delta and AWG had switched to the HK416 due to reliability. GEN Brown of PEO Soldier defended the M4 with biased rhetoric like, “soldiers like the M4,” and retorted that the US Army had not authorized anybody to use the HK416, and that it must have been illegally developed and purchased.

The truth is that the SMU community did it legally, but not the traditional Army way (the expensive, 5 to 10 year, political Army way). But when some senators (Coburn included) asked the acting Secretary of the Army and Vice Chief of Staff of the Army (Gen Cody) why the SMUs have these better weapons and the regular Army is investing $375 Million in the M4, they responded that the SMUs and other SOF units (many SF Groups) were not authorized to purchase the 416s. The Vice COS (Gen Cody) ordered all units (including Delta) to stop using the HK416s due to political backlash. Most units (including the AWG) all but refused and gave every rebuttal possible. Delta fought it because it could technically be considered in their charter – but this wasn’t settled until recently. Two Tier-1 units were the only units allowed to keep their HK416s.

Gen Brown continued to urge Gen Cody to force those units to turn in the HK416s or the Army would face more political backlash for not competitively contracting the Army Carbine. Gen Cody determined that these HK416s weren’t worth the political backlash and ordered AWG and others to turning their HK416s. AWG fought back citing waste of resources, morale, and performance issues, but Gen Cody’s staff eventually gave a direct order to the AWG Commander to turn them in.

David -The important thing to convey to the public and politicians is that the HK416 fires the same rounds, uses the same magazine, and shares the same butt-stock, optics, accessories, and many, many parts as the M4. To stop buying the M4 and contract for the same amount of similarly priced HK416 would not be a major logistical/program overhaul, and would still allow the Army to pursue the future “leap-ahead” weapon technology.History lesson [from Military.com]:


=====================================================================

Senator Tells Army to Reconsider M4 (http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,133962,00.html)


By Christian Lowe
Military.com
April 30, 2007


The debate over the Army's choice to purchase hundreds of thousands of M4 carbines for its new brigade combat teams is facing stiff opposition from a small group of senators who say the rifle may be inferior to others already in the field.

In an April 12 letter to acting Army Secretary Pete Geren, Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn said purchase of the M4 - a shortened version of the Vietnam-era M16 - was based on requirements from the early 1990s and that better, more reliable weapons exist that could give Army troops a more effective weapon.

Coburn asked the Army to hold a "free and open competition" before inking sole-source contracts worth about $375 million to M4 manufacturer, West Hartford, Conn.-based Colt Defense - which just received a $50 million Army contract for M4s on April 20.

"I am concerned with the Army's plans to procure nearly half a million new rifles outside of any competitive process," Coburn wrote in the mid-April letter obtained by Military.com.

A Geren spokesman said the secretary's office is putting together a reply to Coburn's letter, but provided no further details.

Coburn has banded together with a small group of like-minded senators to push the Army into a competition to determine whether the M4 is the best choice to equip newly-forming brigade combat teams, a top Coburn aide said.

The senator's concerns grew out of media coverage that showed the M4's design fails in critical situations and that special operations forces prefer other designs.

"Considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon," Coburn wrote. "A number of manufacturers have researched, tested and fielded weapons which, by all accounts, appear to provide significantly improved reliability."

Special operations forces, including "tier one" units such as the Army's Delta Force and the Navy's SEAL Development Group - or SEAL Team Six - have used their own funds to purchase the Heckler & Koch-built 416, which uses a gas-piston operating system less susceptible to failure than Colt's gas-operated design.

"That's significant, because these guys don't screw around," the aide said.

In fact, Colt included four different weapons in the competition to build the Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle, or SCAR, none of which used the M4s gas system, the aide said.

In a routine acquisition notice March 23, a U.S. Special Forces battalion based in Okinawa announced that it is buying 84 upper receiver assemblies for the HK416 to modify their M4 carbines. The M4 fires using a system that redirects gas from the expended round to eject it and reload another. The 416 and SCAR use a gas-operated piston that physically pushes the bolt back to eject the round and load another.

Carbon buildup from the M4's gas system has plagued the rifle for years, resulting in some close calls with Soldiers in combat whose rifles jammed at critical moments.

According to the solicitation for the new upper receiver assemblies, the 416 "allows Soldiers to replace the existing M4 upper receiver with an HK proprietary gas system that does not introduce propellant gases and the associated carbon fouling back into the weapon's interior. This reduces operator cleaning time, and increases the reliability of the M4 Carbine, particularly in an environment in which sand and dust are prevalent."

Yet the Army has still declined to buy anything other than the M4 for its regular troops, requesting about $100 million in the 2007 wartime supplemental to buy M4s for its Soldiers.

The office in charge of equipping Soldiers said in a March 30 statement the service has no plans to purchase the HK416.

"I am certain we can all agree that America's Soldiers should have the best technology in their hands," Coburn wrote. "And there is simply no excuse for not providing our soldiers the best weapon - not just a weapon that is 'good enough.' "

The Army has not yet responded to Coburn's letter, but his aide said if the senator doesn't receive a response to the letter by Monday, Coburn plans to call Geren personally to address the issue.

"Our feeling is once people see the facts on the face of it they're going to say that this is ridiculous and demand that the Army does it right and competes the contract," the aide said."

[benbach]

wasnt the 416 essentially the same thing but just more reliable?

[benbach]

nm ^ ^ that explains the difference