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Gunpack
03-10-2008, 07:51 PM
I wonder what peoples views are on putting 90mm/105mm guns on vehicles such as the Piranha III/Pandur etc. A great firepower advantage but off-road capability one would think much reduced. Vehicles such as the Centauro, or even the Piranha III 10x10, may be more suited. Thoughts?

Mechs
03-10-2008, 08:57 PM
It seems like it was a good enough idea for the U.S. Army to implement it. Look up the Stryker Mobile Gun System. I know it isn't a Piranha III, but the Stryker is based off of it, so I would guess it has some relevance.

ed316
03-10-2008, 09:07 PM
If only they can find a way to mount the GAU-8. Now that would just rock.

FelixA9
03-10-2008, 09:16 PM
South African G-6 and ISTR the Czechs have one too.

Ought Six
03-10-2008, 10:04 PM
The AMX-10RC has carried a 105mm gun for over a quarter century now.


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FA9:
"South African G-6"That is a self-propelled 155mm gun, designed to be an indirect fire artillery piece. The vehicles under discussion have 105mm direct-fire HV tank guns.

Rakki
03-10-2008, 10:38 PM
The G-6 is actually capable of direct-fire up to 3000m. It's a SPG, not a howitzer, after all.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rsa/g6.htm

wilhelm
03-12-2008, 07:05 AM
I wonder what peoples views are on putting 90mm/105mm guns on vehicles such as the Piranha III/Pandur etc. A great firepower advantage but off-road capability one would think much reduced. Vehicles such as the Centauro, or even the Piranha III 10x10, may be more suited. Thoughts?

The standard South African MICV for 30 years has been the 6x6 Ratel.
The standard infantry carrier is the Ratel 20, which has a dual feed 20mm cannon. The Ratel 90 has 1 or 2 less infantrymen and has a 90mm gun. It is used as fire support for the Ratel 20, yet still retains a troop carrying capacity. The troop capacity can be reduced and the ammo load increased to operate purely as a fire support vehicle/armoured car. Their mobility cross country was identical. Weight is just under 20 tons.

The newer 8x8 Rooikat, with 76mm or 105mm is actually designed for a completely different purpose. It was designed for deep aggressive reconnaisance and raiding on the flanks, with an anti-tank capability better than the low pressure 90mm on the Ratel 90. It carries no troops and is basically a very heavy armoured car. It is a lower slung vehicle as it does not need troop carrying capacity. It's cross country performance is tremendous. Weight is around 28 tons.

FelixA9
03-12-2008, 08:50 AM
The AMX-10RC has carried a 105mm gun for over a quarter century now.


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FA9:That is a self-propelled 155mm gun, designed to be an indirect fire artillery piece. The vehicles under discussion have 105mm direct-fire HV tank guns.


Thread topic is "big guns on wheels". I'd think indirect qualifies as well.

Ought Six
03-13-2008, 01:54 AM
That was the title, but the first post qualified it down to wheeled armor carrying tank-type guns, not wheeled SP artillery. I responded in that context. YMMV.

guest
03-13-2008, 03:22 AM
As long as people don't confuse such vehicles as tanks, and they are employed with a suitable doctrine .

If you try to fight with an MGS, Centaro or any other Light to Medium armoured vehicle (wheeled OR tracked), as a MBT.. you'll waste alot of flesh and steel.

So, let's say your in Chad, with an Army team of Stykers backed by MGS, you run across Rebel armor, say T-55, T-62.

Now, your 105mm has a good chance of a first shot, first kill., However you pretty much no chance of surviving a hit by the enemy.

Knowing this, how do you proceed?

1: Engage with the MGS, along with Infantry using man-portable anti-armor?

2: Break contact, call in for air support?

As an assault gun, such a weapon seems to perform better, the Infantry is there to protect the MGS, while the MGS employs the shock action of it's DFS capabilities in assaulting the position.

What is the doctrine going to be, when employing the MGS as an anti-armor weapon?

While lightly armoured anti-tank weapons are nothing new (The Germans employed many such vehicles and guns in the anti-tank role)

They all seemed to share a common trait, they had sufficient muzzle velocity to immoibilize most opposition with the first shot. This was key to the survivability for these platforms.

In the case of the MGS, the main gun's ability to produce that first shot first kill among 1st and 2nd tier tanks is in doubt.

BTW, the same applies to the CV-90 or PUMA ect.. while better armoured perhaps, a CV-120 is still not an MBT, and is vunerable to hits a Leo2 or M1A2 would usually shrug off.

I suppose the CV-120's advantage is it has a good chance of surving a MBT encounter provided it has the drop on the enemy.

wilhelm
03-13-2008, 05:07 AM
Guest, the South African army in Angola in the 1980's regularly took on and thumped T-54/55's with the Eland 90 aroured car and Ratel 90. Both have identical turrets with a Giat 90mm low pressure gun. I believe that HEAT rounds were used. They required deft tactical handling due to their light armour, and were used in numbers.

The results were overwhelmingly positive, albeit that they realised that the low pressure 90mm gun with heat round was not ideal. It was often the case that multiple hits were required to destroy a T-55. Perhaps the thick bush also played a part, as well as the poor ergonomics of the T-55. Generally speaking, the Angolan tank crews were far better trained than their infantry, and sometimes had a Cuban commander. Overall though, It was not something the South African wanted to do too often, and this led to the deployment of the Olifant MBT and the development of the Rooikat.

The Rooikat with 76mm gun, although of smaller calibre, has a much higher velocity, and along with APFSDS rounds makes a far better tank killer. Having said that, the Rooikat is not a tank, and is not used in that role.. It is used for deep recce and raiding in depth on enemy flanks over vast distances typical of Africa. Therefore it has to have high ammo capacity storage with the ability to defend itself/attack effectively. Very high speed, long range, and 8 wheel drive also help.

Gunpack
03-13-2008, 10:47 AM
Thread topic is "big guns on wheels". I'd think indirect qualifies as well.

I should have specified direct fire.

playtym
03-13-2008, 10:56 AM
Should we confine our discussion to only the 90mm/105mm weapons that you mentioned or can we discuss weapons of other calibres? IE: What is a "big gun"?

Gunpack
03-13-2008, 11:48 AM
Should we confine our discussion to only the 90mm/105mm weapons that you mentioned or can we discuss weapons of other calibres? IE: What is a "big gun"?

Sure. A 120mm gun is being developed for the Centauro. I believe Nextar(Giat) are developing one as well. The Italian 60mm is also an interesting calibre.

safety_match
03-13-2008, 05:59 PM
Guest, the South African army in Angola in the 1980's regularly took on and thumped T-54/55's with the Eland 90 aroured car and Ratel 90. Both have identical turrets with a Giat 90mm low pressure gun. I believe that HEAT rounds were used. They required deft tactical handling due to their light armour, and were used in numbers.

The results were overwhelmingly positive, albeit that they realised that the low pressure 90mm gun with heat round was not ideal. It was often the case that multiple hits were required to destroy a T-55. Perhaps the thick bush also played a part, as well as the poor ergonomics of the T-55. Generally speaking, the Angolan tank crews were far better trained than their infantry, and sometimes had a Cuban commander. Overall though, It was not something the South African wanted to do too often, and this led to the deployment of the Olifant MBT and the development of the Rooikat.

The Rooikat with 76mm gun, although of smaller calibre, has a much higher velocity, and along with APFSDS rounds makes a far better tank killer. Having said that, the Rooikat is not a tank, and is not used in that role.. It is used for deep recce and raiding in depth on enemy flanks over vast distances typical of Africa. Therefore it has to have high ammo capacity storage with the ability to defend itself/attack effectively. Very high speed, long range, and 8 wheel drive also help.
Ratel 90's were generally considered ineffective vs T-55's. The ZT-3's on the other hand weren't. :)

There is an option for a Rooikat 105 as well. 52 calibre GT-7 AT gun I believe.

Ought Six
03-13-2008, 06:19 PM
The tactical doctrine for such vehicles was well developed with tank destroyers in WWII. The German Marder II & III, the British Firefly, and the US M-36 are good examples. The Soviets used the ASU-76 & ASU-85 in this role, though it was really an SP assault gun. The main tactic was 'shoot and scoot'; a shot or two taken from a concealed ambush position, followed by a hasty retreat. These lightly-armored and sometimes open-topped vehicles were very vunerable, and used their excellent speed and mobility to survive. Even so, they took some heavy losses, but were also quite effective in slowing the advance of enemy armor and attriting assault spearpoint armored units while our own armored units reformed, rearmed and refueled.