Germany scraps new Iron Cross

[Clearday-TRForce]

Germany scraps new Iron Cross
By Bojan Pancevski

The German government was yesterday forced to scrap plans to re-introduce the Iron Cross, after opponents said the military medal still carried the "burden" of association with Nazi atrocities.

The medal, the equivalent of the Victoria Cross in Britain, was established during the Napoleonic Wars to reward bravery and valour of officers and enlisted men alike.

But its reputation was tarnished by the n*z*s, who added a swastika to the design, linking it to atrocities in the Second World War. It was abolished in post-Nazi Germany. On Tuesday the Defence Minister, Franz Josef Jung, backed a campaign to re-introduce the cross for valour in combat in flashpoints such as Afghanistan. Currently, there are only medals for service.

But within 24 hours the ministry reversed its support after the move led to a public outcry, with critics claiming the Iron Cross was too reminiscent of the Nazi era. "We are not thinking of bringing it back, though we do want to introduce a medal to honour soldiers who show courage," a spokesman said.

A source from the ministry suggested a compromise solution could create a new medal, which would, however, resemble the Iron Cross.

Col Ernst-Reinhard Beck, head of the Reserve Soldiers Association which began the campaign, said "a lot of fear and horror was spread" under the symbol, but added that a modified version was still being used as an emblem of the army.

Mr Beck, also an MP in Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democrat party, said: "The Iron Cross has become a sign of hope, aid and solidarity in regions of crisis around the world, and we have no reason to be ashamed of it."


http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2173/demirhaxu8.jpg
A: Großkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes
B: Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit Eichenlaub
C: Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Eichenlaub mit Schwertern
D: Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes mit dem Eichenlaub mit Schwertern und Brillanten
E: Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse
F: Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse
G: Wiederholungsspange für das Eiserne Kreuz 1. Klasse 1914
H: Wiederholungsspange für das Eiserne Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914
I: Deutsches Kreuz in Silber
J: Deutsches Kreuz in Gold
K: Eichenlaub zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes
L: Eichenlaub mit Schwertern zum Ritterkreuz des Eisernen Kreuzes





I've read the article in another forum and taken it directly. It will be interesting to see Germans with same Iron crosses...so why? is there a reflection of past? intention? just a medal or a must be signal to future in world politics?

New Gerhard Barkhorn s, Schnaufers, Hartmanns, Nowotnys coming ? p-)


regards,
CDTRF

[Invisigoth]

We are so sorry that we even hate ourselves...t h a t sorry. WE ARE SORRY! Ok? Sorry.

Sincerely,
An apologetic German

[Igor01]

Why are they not also apologizing for still speaking German? After all, Nazi's spoke it when they spread their evil rule over much of Europe? Sheer idiocy.

[Bohemoth]

The Iron Cross is of Prussian origin.
Today's Germany could need a revival of good ole Prussian values, but I doubt the Bavarians and other regions west of the Elbe river would like that. :-)

[khukuri]

Sometimes, what something is seen as is more important than what it really is. In many peoples eyes the Iron cross is still an Nazi thing. Next time, before trying to reintroduce the iron cross try to make an effort into educating people on the medal and not just assuming that everyone knows its an Prussian symbol.

[muck]

Already disputed here, with much more informations.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130026&page=5

[Invisigoth]

Sometimes, what something is seen as is more important than what it really is. In many peoples eyes the Iron cross is still an Nazi thing. Next time, before trying to reintroduce the iron cross try to make an effort into educating people on the medal and not just assuming that everyone knows its an Prussian symbol.

Well considering its on every German military vehicle you'd think its not that evil. We thought wrong. :P

[Winger]

Actually, the Iron Cross as a symbol originally goes waaaay back to the Teutonic Knights during the Middle Ages. It was adopted as we know it today by the Prussians. This whole Nazi stigma is ridiculous. The sins of the father or in most cases grandfather are not transcendent.

[JoaMei]

Sometimes, what something is seen as is more important than what it really is. In many peoples eyes the Iron cross is still an Nazi thing. Next time, before trying to reintroduce the iron cross try to make an effort into educating people on the medal and not just assuming that everyone knows its an Prussian symbol.

"People" are generally stupid, and the most stupid are usually those who cry with the loudest voice.

[Johnny_H02]

Lets see, over 120 odd years of being apart of Germany/Prussia etc.
V.S. the six years of World War II? I fail to see how it could be tarnished 60 odd years after that. Thats 180yrs of Prussian/German History against 6.

I do however take issue with the medal being compared to the Victoria Cross.
While the Iron Cross should not be down talked, the V.C. is significantly harder to receive or be rewarded than the I.Cross, The Iron Cross was given for kill counts (IE Fighter Pilots, Snipers, Tank Aces this was not exclusive to this sort of act and it was awarded for other reasons as well.) where the V.C. is awarded most often than not posthumously and only if the Soldier/Sailor/Airmen have acted with complete and total disregard for their own life.It isn't the same medal nor does it require the same criteria.

[gaijinsamurai]

Agreed, Johnny_H. A more appropriate comparison might be between the VC and the Knight's Cross, although the Knight's Cross was often awarded for a pattern of meritorious deeds of lesser heroism than the VC, rather than for single acts of bravery in combat.

[kamaz]

Germany needs to stop apologizing to everybody and retain their cultural history and pride. Whats happening now is unhealthy. And I'm saying this as a Jew.

Only an idiot will see a nazi symbol in this Teutonic cross thats dozens of generations old.

[Dercius]

Germany needs to stop apologizing to everybody and retain their cultural history and pride.

Only an idiot will see a nazi symbol in this Teutonic cross thats dozens of generations old.

x2. Stupid political correctness


The German government was yesterday forced to scrap plans to re-introduce the Iron Cross, after opponents said the military medal still carried the "burden" of association with Nazi atrocities

So this geman politicians think that the "Légion d'Honneur" or the "Victoria Cross" still carry the burden of the atrocities carried by Napoleonic forces or atrocities carried by British Empire forces during colonial wars???
(Not trying to start a flame, my personal opinion is that its correct to keep both LH and VC. No one around the globe feels offended or outraged by french and british goverments keeping both of them, same applies to german Iron Cross)

Just another proof of how stupid politicians can be.

[Andrew Chalmers]

The swastika has been around even longer than the cross - but how many would seriously argue that the Nazi's use of it did not tarnish the symbol's meaning? (Making it fit for use in modern Germany)?

[muck]

Hooray to the starry-eyed idealism and political correctness. Anyways, another award will be created.

[Jaeger07]

Sad. The germans also used the roman alphabet. So I'm probobly a nazi for writing these lines... Stooopid... :cantbeli:

[Skutatos]

Nazis also breathed air, maybe the politically correct germans who may actually care about this horrifying fact will stop doing the same.

[Eoin666]

I had a motorbike accident in Germany and while recovering from a broken shoulder and leg I had to share a room with two German guys who both had some sort of arsehole problems.....staring over after my breakfast of ham and cheese every day during the doctor's rounds to see him draining some guy's piles...not nice, especially at that time of morning....I think I deserve an apology :)

Germany's national symbol, there're no complaints about the cross on military aircraft or vehicles, but dare not award it as a medal....

[muck]

Germany's national symbol, there're no complaints about the cross on military aircraft or vehicles, but dare not award it as a medal....
And were is the logic behind that?

[CouchCommando]

The swastika has been around even longer than the cross - but how many would seriously argue that the Nazi's use of it did not tarnish the symbol's meaning? (Making it fit for use in modern Germany)?

The swastika has no history as a German symbol like the Iron Cross, it was introduced to German military insignia by the Nazis. The argument that it is an unrelated sign in other cultures is, in this case, invalid.

[AirCommando]

We are so sorry that we even hate ourselves...

Sincerely,
An apologetic German
True. I´m sorry.

Anyway I don´t want back the "Iron Cross" per se but a medal for combat bravery would be nice. Actually every REM gets a "Service medal" with no difference if somebody was the last man standing in a firefight or spend his time behind the container taking a nap in the camp. We have to change this "Cold War medal rules".

[Alfacentori]

I'm not a German but I don't have any problems with the Iron Cross, it has a history before Hitler and "National Socialism" and any association of it with that part of German history simply isn't historically accurate.

I say bring it back, no German Soldier should feel bad were they awarded one for valour.

My 2 cents

Alfa

[toki]

It is gone for good. People have to understand that 3 generations have passed since WW2 without any relation to the iron cross. In the public mind, outside the Bundeswehr, there are no military traditions at all. NONE, so bringing back anything that was last used in WW2 is never going to happen. If you like it or not. The general public will never accept it. We here on this board are not the general public.

And before people cry out "PC, lefty, Hippie thinking":
People forget, that it wasn't the German psyche alone who created this, but to a good part the postwar dynamics induced by the Allies. They had a big interest to eliminate a military ('Prussian') way of thinking in the German public. With Denazification came 'DePrussification' as well. In the late fourties and fifties people had more important issues anyway. Now imagine 3 more generatoins without this mindset.

It's just a natural conclusion. You can discuss as long as you want, i just lay out the facts. I don't see this changing. People are OK with our flag, but don't dare to think anything clad in black, white and red will ever be 'accepted' anytime soon. It's in the public psyche, and this psyche doesn't distinguish between prussian colours and traditions and WW2 era colours and traditions.

WE may know it better, but hat's not the point. It's not about logic, but a general feel.

[CMNot]

Toki, much epicness.

And Prussia is not Germany p-)

[toki]

Toki, much epicness.

And Prussia is not Germany p-)

I don't think you got my point.
It made a big part and the military traditions in
Germany are probably 99% Prussian.

And the Iron Cross is Prussian.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I'm not a German but I don't have any problems with the Iron Cross, it has a history before Hitler and "National Socialism" and any association of it with that part of German history simply isn't historically accurate.

I say bring it back, no German Soldier should feel bad were they awarded one for valour.

My 2 cents

Alfa




Generally,if it is accepted that means Germany wants to be more powerfull politic/military player in the world area.

Look at Japanese...they have changed army name like "Imperial"...Why?

These things are indicator of old guys is new recovered faces. No doubt.


Germany are probably 99% Prussian.

and prussian origins?

[chop shop]

the prussians certainly didn't invent the swastica.

[CMNot]

I don't think you got my point.
It made a big part and the military traditions in
Germany are probably 99% Prussian.

No, I get your point and agree wholeheartedly from my experience of Germany - which has been all post War and limited.

Prussia, was merely a jibe. It usually works with a German friend of mine. Removing that Prussian military influence (not just with regarding the military, but society at large) has certainly brought a long peace and a great, prolonged period of economic strength.

[Midav]

When the Bundeswehr first introduced the kevlar helmet, there was resentment by some Germans I knew (no joke). Reason being, it resembles the helmet German soldiers wore during WW2. They got over it.

No doubt the Iron Cross has a more deeper meaning. Then again, it's being used to this very day.

There also was a ship named Rommel... p-)

[ren0312]

No, I get your point and agree wholeheartedly from my experience of Germany - which has been all post War and limited.

Prussia, was merely a jibe. It usually works with a German friend of mine. Removing that Prussian military influence (not just with regarding the military, but society at large) has certainly brought a long peace and a great, prolonged period of economic strength.

But at the end you have to ask, was it worth it, after all, Nazism has zero relationship at all to Prussia, in fact it came from Bavaria, so I do not think it is fair to make the Prussian system a scpaegoat for the ills that befell Germany during World War 2, in fact, had the Prussian military elite been in charge of the Germany during World War 2 and not Hitler and the Nazi Party, there would not have been a Holocaust or the widespread crimes against humanity comitted by the German military and Germany may even have won the war.

[Annihilator9112]

that is sad. i always thought the Iron cross was the coolest looking medal ever made.

[toki]

But at the end you have to ask, was it worth it, after all, Nazism has zero relationship at all to Prussia, in fact it came from Bavaria, so I do not think it is fair to make the Prussian system a scpaegoat for the ills that befell Germany during World War 2, in fact, had the Prussian military elite been in charge of the Germany during World War 2 and not Hitler and the Nazi Party, there would not have been a Holocaust or the widespread crimes against humanity comitted by the German military and Germany may even have won the war.

You cannot separate it that way. Prussian militarism was a perfect tool for Nazism. The typical Prussian virtues of obedience, efficency and loyalty to leadership took its toll.

Yes, Prussian traditions are older than Nazism and the war lasted only a 'few' years. But Prussian militarism and the Prussian elite "commited suicide" so to say. Almost literally.

[JoaMei]

I had a motorbike accident in Germany and while recovering from a broken shoulder and leg I had to share a room with two German guys who both had some sort of arsehole problems.....staring over after my breakfast of ham and cheese every day during the doctor's rounds to see him draining some guy's piles...not nice, especially at that time of morning....I think I deserve an apology :)

Germany's national symbol, there're no complaints about the cross on military aircraft or vehicles, but dare not award it as a medal....

Actually there were, and are...

[Herman the II]

You cannot separate it that way. Prussian militarism was a perfect tool for Nazism. The typical Prussian virtues of obedience, efficency and loyalty to leadership took its toll.

Yes, Prussian traditions are older than Nazism and the war lasted only a 'few' years. But Prussian militarism and the Prussian elite "commited suicide" so to say. Almost literally.


I totally disagree with you on that issue.
The Prussian elite was the core-cell of the resistance against Hitler, if you look at the list of people that supported (and paid with their life's for it) the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944 you will see that you have the names of the whole Prussian elite on it.
Hitler always hated and opposed the old Prussian families that hold key positions within the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht.
In the beginning of the raise of the third Reich some of the old "Prussians" supported Hitler because he strengthened the Wehrmacht and promised to repeal the Versailles treaty but that turned into opposition as soon as they found out what Hitler was really after.
If you look at the leading figures of the NSDAP you will find none of the old Prussian families.

[toki]

I totally disagree with you on that issue.
The Prussian elite was the core-cell of the resistance against Hitler, if you look at the list of people that supported (and paid with their life's for it) the attempted assassination of Hitler in 1944 you will see that you have the names of the whole Prussian elite on it.
Hitler always hated and opposed the old Prussian families that hold key positions within the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht.
In the beginning of the raise of the third Reich some of the old "Prussians" supported Hitler because he strengthened the Wehrmacht and promised to repeal the Versailles treaty but that turned into opposition as soon as they found out what Hitler was really after.
If you look at the leading figures of the NSDAP you will find none of the old Prussian families.

And what was left of "Prussia" and the traditions and values after the war? I don't neglect personal dislike of Prussian nobility and the true Nazi elite. And of course the "Hochverräter" were Prussian.

But in the end Prussia or what was left of it within the Third Reich went down with the Third Reich. And you can't ignore, that the military elite was loyal to AH. (Zähneknirschend oder nicht.) If they loved it or not. You can't turn around the table completely.

[Herman the II]

And what was left of "Prussia" and the traditions and values after the war? I don't neglect personal dislike of Prussian nobility and the true Nazi elite. And of course the "Hochverräter" were Prussian.

But in the end Prussia or what was left of it within the Third Reich went down with the Third Reich. And you can't ignore, that the military elite was loyal to AH. (Zähneknirschend oder nicht.) If they loved it or not. You can't turn around the table completely.

I agree with you that Prussia was (especially in the 1960 and 1970) and sometimes still is mixed up with the third Reich and the national-socialism in general.
But the public opinion is changing.
20 years ago Prussia was only connected with militarism but that changes towards Prussian values like tolerance, discipline and diligence.
Since years the German main stream media (FAZ,SZ,Spiegel) is beginning to paint a different and more realistic picture of Prussia.
Not only you can see the change of minds in the press but also in public life.
Look at the rebuilding of the Berliner city castle, archaeological research in Königsberg (funded by DER SPIEGEL), Prussian kindergartens and finally the wish to reestablish the Iron cross that was expressed through a petition that was signed by thousands of Germans.
Germany would be better of with more rather than less Prussian values.

So I say: Viva la restoration!

[intelligenzija]

I agree with toki

the public or collective view is emotional and people tend toremeber the negative things in the first place.


Extreme example:

Swastika has is a ´buddhistic religious sign if I recall correctly but today it symolized the evil. You can't change that.

[zapatero]

We are so sorry that we even hate ourselves...t h a t sorry. WE ARE SORRY! Ok? Sorry.

Sincerely,
An apologetic German

It doesn't sound sorry enough for me... :)

[ren0312]

Don't be so glum people you still have Poland to look forward too.p-)