PTSD through the ages

[Toddy]

Hello learned friends and colleagues. I have a question that I am hoping you can shed some light on.

PTSD through the ages, do you think this is a modern day occurence due to the improvement of weapons or do you think that even the armies of Alexander, Genghis Khan, Hannibal, Ceaser etc had soldiers who suffered from the same thing?

I know some people today still try and prove that PTSD is a fallicy, just curious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Todd

[gaijinsamurai]

Without a doubt, the soldiers of Alexander, Ceaser, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and everyone else suffered from what we now refer to as "PTSD".

A person doesn't have to necessarily serve in battle to have the effects of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, but in my opinion, the condition tends to get over-diognosed a lot these days, with just about every loser claiming to suffer from it, for anything from seeing a car wreck to having their boss raise their voice at them. We live in an age in which psychiatrists can make a killing from telling people they have a condition that requires treatment, and an excuse not to take responsibility for their lives. And of course, pharmaceutical companies hop on the gravy train, with all kinds of little pills to improve everybody's moods.

[Hollis]

I would say, the common view/understanding of PTSD is wrong, often based on Hollyweird BS.

PTSD, is a very normal reaction to a very abnormal situation. People respond to it differently. If left on it's own it becomes part of a person's personality. People with PTSD are not psychotic, sociopathic, derange, homocidal, etc.

People with PTSD can live "rather" successful lives, Can accomplish goals.


My gut feelings on this thread, you will probably get the Hollyweird Rambo PTSD responce. I guess we can;

1) allow the thread to proceeds and deal with the responces as they occur.

2) just lock it.

I would also like to note. This forum has been thinking about having a section to serve the needs of Returnees from Combat. It would be a closed section to keep the Hollyweird Rambo comments out.


As for as this thread, the next posts will determine direction.


Warning, I will not take kindly to any Rambo BS comments.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Without a doubt, the soldiers of Alexander, Ceaser, Genghis Khan, Napoleon, and everyone else suffered from what we now refer to as "PTSD".

A person doesn't have to necessarily serve in battle to have the effects of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, but in my opinion, the condition tends to get over-diognosed a lot these days, with just about every loser claiming to suffer from it, for anything from seeing a car wreck to having their boss raise their voice at them. We live in an age in which psychiatrists can make a killing from telling people they have a condition that requires treatment, and an excuse not to take responsibility for their lives. And of course, pharmaceutical companies hop on the gravy train, with all kinds of little pills to improve everybody's moods.

PTSD effects people in many different ways.

Every single persons mind functions differently. A bloke in the invite section is suffering from PTSD and suicidal depression and he hasen't even served. He was bashed, left for dead.

The difference between now and 100 years ago is medical science. Now that we are more advanced in understanding how the mind works what was once seen as cowardice is a legit illness.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I'd also like to add that if people are serious about finding more information on mental illness to check out the following site

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/index.aspx?

[Hollis]

. Now that we are more advanced in understanding how the mind works what was once seen as cowardice is a legit illness.


I don't think cowardice is a element in PTSD, many people who have PTSD, where highly decorated for heroism. It is POST, after the trauma. How the mind deals with a traumatic episode after the event.


http://www.helpguide.org/mental/post_traumatic_stress_disorder_symptoms_treatment.htm

[simple jumper]

It's surely a symptom that has always been present in all walks of life that force one to experience unexpected shock. However, that being said I would think that with social expectations and social evolution, PTSD also evolves. For example, this day in age men showing weakness is more tolerated than it has been in some societies in the past and thus the number of self diagnosed cases seem to be on the rise. Is it bad? Not at all, if anything, IMO, it's good- because those shocks and pressures have to surface somehow and it's better to do it in a healthy way (social circles, support groups, writing, crying or what ever) than to bottle it up and let it blow over at some other point. My grandfather suffers from PTSD from his time in Korea and although it's mild compared to some reported cases from the First World War or other conflicts it can all vary on the seriousness of the conflict and the individuals perception on life, death, combat or what not. Just my 2 cents on a somewhat touchy subject.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I agree. It is an after effect. But in the Edwardian age of warfare especially during WW1 after being on the receiving end of an artillery barrage for 12 hours people deserted because of shell shock (PTSD)

The Great War by Les Carolyn has a number of pages devoted to PTSD and Shell Shock. The whole idea of it being an illness was just starting to be taken notice of.

One Australian soldier didn't suffer the effects until 6 months later. The guy in the invite section he was bashed in 2001 and come 2007 is now pretty much well ****ed.

But in the minds of say a British Lt Col in 1915. A person who grew up under Queen Victoria it was seen as cowardice.

[gaijinsamurai]

Good point, Minardiau, and if I came across like Patton slapping the shell-shocked GI in Italy, I apologize: it's just that with my job (I'm a parole officer) I hear a lot of bullsh!t, and it tends to make a person cynical. I stand by my statement that a lot of people claim "PTSD" without even knowing what it is, but at the same time, a lot of people DO have it, for different reasons, and their concerns should be taken seriously.

[Toddy]

I agree. It is an after effect. But in the Edwardian age of warfare especially during WW1 after being on the receiving end of an artillery barrage for 12 hours people deserted because of shell shock (PTSD)

The Great War by Les Carolyn has a number of pages devoted to PTSD and Shell Shock. The whole idea of it being an illness was just starting to be taken notice of.

One Australian soldier didn't suffer the effects until 6 months later. The guy in the invite section he was bashed in 2001 and come 2007 is now pretty much well ****ed.

But in the minds of say a British Lt Col in 1915. A person who grew up under Queen Victoria it was seen as cowardice.

Hence the reson for opening this debate. I am reading a book Jums War, about Aussie artillery brigade on the Western Front and one of the guys found his brother with no legs and left arm missing after taking a direct hit from shrapnel from a German morter at the Somme, what makes this even more harrowing is the guy picked up his brother and kept on saying he was going to see his mum, he never spoke for 4 days afterwards, and eventually the Doctor had to write him up as having a psych problem to get him off the front lines as the general response from the officers was that they had no time for cowards and shirkers on the front line, and that he should go straight back to the battery unit where his brother was killed.

Now this obviously raises the question as to how much of a liability this guy would have been to his colleagues, but on the other hand does not merit him being sent to a psych ward either. The Doc was only after the preservation of more lives.

[James]

I have a touch of PTSD from a car crash. My wife notices me acting funny if there's a car crash on TV - especially if it's filmed from inside a car. I put a hand up in front of my face to shield myself. Go figure.

[Hollis]

Toddy, there are alos other issues dealing with tramatic episodes then just PTSD.

I would suggest reading the link I just gave.

[Toddy]

A one-sentence definition for PTSD:
“The sudden cessation of human interaction”. This condition has existed since the times of the ancient Greeks. I would go further back than that but it would be nit picking! We are accepting PTSD today, which existed previously as “soldier’s heart”. In World War 1 “shell shock”, World War II “war neurosis”. It is interesting to note Psychiatrists and Psychologists actually began getting nearer the truth when they were diagnosing many soldiers with “combat fatigue” when experiencing symptoms associated with PTSD during combat. The expression “combat stress reaction” arose after many soldiers developed symptoms in Vietnam. The symptoms initially did not subside, and many went on to develop Post -Traumatic Stress Disorder, which at last was given a diagnostic criteria within the APAs DSM III. (American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic Statistical Manual. Edition 3).

[Toddy]

Toddy, there are alos other issues dealing with tramatic episodes then just PTSD.

I would suggest reading the link I just gave.

Thanks mate I am on it. Wasn't until I just read James' post about car crash that the penny dropped. I was in a pretty bad car crash and for months afterwards I used to flinch when I heard tyres squeal, or a car came too close, it was almost like an out of body experience which took me back to the crash, the slow motion, the sounds, what I was thinking. I would never have put it down to PTSD albeit extremely mild. I haven't had problems for years, not everyone can be so lucky.

I guess I always associated it with combat related situations. Obviously the trauma goes much deeper.

Thanks guys this has been most informative.

[LaoSexMachine]

my dad's friend who was sent to reeducation camp by the pathet lao cowers when he hears gun fire and he spends most of his day in his room in the dark. my dad says he does that because the pathet lao didnt torture him at night. very sad.

[Hollis]

Toddy, one of the good aspect of this defining of PTSD/understanding of it, is that more people are being helped. EMTs, Emergency Room people, Victims of accidents, Victims of Crime, etc. It is abnormal trauma. It is a very normal reaction. Basically the mind sets the incident aside to be dealt with later. It is a survival mechanism. Problem is that if it is not dealt with later it patterns in the brain, causing the person to have relive the experience later, or part of it. It can include survivor guilt, sleep disorder, the memories intrude into your daily life or dreams. In response a person may become emotionally numb to other people. That site does a pretty decent job.

I think the biggest aspect is that for people to understand that it is a NORMAL response. Like getting hurt, it is normal to feel pain.

[Toddy]

Toddy, one of the good aspect of this defining of PTSD/understanding of it, is that more people are being helped. EMTs, Emergency Room people, Victims of accidents, Victims of Crime, etc. It is abnormal trauma. It is a very normal reaction. Basically the mind sets the incident aside to be dealt with later. It is a survival mechanism. Problem is that if it is not dealt with later it patterns in the brain, causing the person to have relive the experience later, or part of it. It can include survivor guilt, sleep disorder, the memories intrude into your daily life or dreams. In response a person may become emotionally numb to other people. That site does a pretty decent job.

I think the biggest aspect is that for people to understand that it is a NORMAL response. Like getting hurt, it is normal to feel pain.

Well said mate.

It was interseting to read this Doctor's views from WWI, when he was told to send the guy back to the front lines to "help" fix the problem, he responded that there was no Doctor on earth that would tell someone who had just burned their hand on the stove that the best way to fix it was to put your hand back on the same stove.

[sergentdarmes]

Check if you can find the book of Ardant du Picq : Battle Studies - Ancient and Modern Battle at www.bellum.nu/literature/ardantdupicq001.html
Go to wikipedia to see what it is about, he speaks in 19th centuru terms of PTSD among other thing related to soldier's morale.

[sergentdarmes]

Check if you can find the book of Ardant du Picq : Battle Studies - Ancient and Modern Battle at www.bellum.nu/literature/ardantdupicq001.html
Go to wikipedia to see what it is about, he speaks in 19th centuru terms of PTSD among other thing related to soldier's morale.

[oregongrunt]

I remember reading somewhere that most of the VA claims for PTSD are for non-deployed (no combat) PTSD. I don't think that people should be getting over $3000 a month from the government because they were in minor car wrecks or punched in a bar. They shouldn't get more benefits than the general public. I do believe that actual combat vets should get it if it's necessary. it used to be called Soldier’s heart, nostalgia, shell shock and battle fatigue.

[gaijinsamurai]

I agree, Oregongrunt.

When I was a student at the U of O, I had a VA workstudy job at a local social service agency, working with jobless vets. Later, I worked in a shelter for Latinos that had a contract with the VA to house homeless vets. The vast majority of applicants were from guys who had never served overseas. Some had never even made it past basic training.

That having been said, vets as well as non-vets who suffer from PTSD or service-related stress should be encouraged to get help, and assistance should be made available to them.

[The Saint]

"The Scars of War" by Hugh McManners (HarperCollins, 1994) has a whole chapter on PTSD, though it deals only with post-WW2 conflicts.

From McManners website : http://www.hughmcmanners.com/

"Hugh compares the ways in which different forces train their soldiery for battle and gives a brilliant account of the effects of modern warfare on the participants. War is by far the most traumatic life event that any human can experience - a damaging combination of danger, uncertainty and horror. This book looks at the experiences of combat - what the modern battlefield is really like and how soldiers, sailors and airmen, prepare for combat."

Eric

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Hello learned friends and colleagues. I have a question that I am hoping you can shed some light on.

PTSD through the ages, do you think this is a modern day occurence due to the improvement of weapons or do you think that even the armies of Alexander, Genghis Khan, Hannibal, Ceaser etc had soldiers who suffered from the same thing?

I know some people today still try and prove that PTSD is a fallicy, just curious to hear your thoughts.

Thanks in advance.

Todd

I'm sure it is not a modern phenomenon.

It may seem unrelated but I remember watching a TV documentary about renaissance Italy a while back. It focussed on the country estate of an aristocratic soldier who came back from long campaigns and started to fill the grounds of his estate with grotesque sculptures. It really struck me at the time that when he was doing that he must have trying to work something out from his time as a soldier. I wish I could remember the location and his name (I think it was in Tuscany).

[Hollis]

I remember reading somewhere that most of the VA claims for PTSD are for non-deployed (no combat) PTSD. I don't think that people should be getting over $3000 a month from the government because they were in minor car wrecks or punched in a bar. They shouldn't get more benefits than the general public. I do believe that actual combat vets should get it if it's necessary. it used to be called Soldier’s heart, nostalgia, shell shock and battle fatigue.


That just is not true. VA oringally died claims unless there was a CIB or a CAR.

[Laworkerbee]

I have a touch of PTSD from a car crash. My wife notices me acting funny if there's a car crash on TV - especially if it's filmed from inside a car. I put a hand up in front of my face to shield myself. Go figure.

Ever since I received that .270 ricochet to my head; whenever I hear ricochet sounds in a movie or something I can't help ducking my head, I walked out of Saving Private Ryan in the theater because of it.

I don't count is as PTSD though.

[budgie]

I'd say PTSD has been recognized for millenia: It was Plato who said, "Only the dead have seen the end of the war".

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

I remember reading somewhere that most of the VA claims for PTSD are for non-deployed (no combat) PTSD. I don't think that people should be getting over $3000 a month from the government because they were in minor car wrecks or punched in a bar. They shouldn't get more benefits than the general public. I do believe that actual combat vets should get it if it's necessary. it used to be called Soldier’s heart, nostalgia, shell shock and battle fatigue.

Then what happens to the person who is mentally not fit for work because of his condition?

Fact 90% of all homeless people suffer from some form of mental illness. It's quite shocking

[jimmytx3]

Hi, it`s a strange thing ptsd, i was very badly wounded during the Falklands war, losing my right eye, cheek bone, teeth and centre of the nose, as well as being under artillery bombardment for twelve hours, and i wonder why i dont and other friends who were with me do, i have never dreamt about it from that day to this, and thought i would have, unless i have in my mind put realy far back and maybe blanked in out,,not realy sure. have a look at these faces from ww1 ww2 and a friend who was in my unit after the battle 1982..
not much difference in the eyes
"The windows of the soul"
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/jimmytx3/shellshock.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/jimmytx3/2407459970089413999S600x600Q85.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc138/jimmytx3/CNV0004311.jpg

[Hollis]

Jimmy,

it is strange in that it maybe stay hidden for a long time. A lot of WWII vets have been getting hit with it. It really depends. Look at the web site and look at the symptoms. Not all may show up, some may sneak in and out of your life every now and then.


Also other aspect, is that for some being able to deal with it early helps to reduce the problems later. In the Viet-Nam war, guys would be in combat and a few days later home in the states with friends who are completely clueless. In WWII some units came home together and spent some time together before discharge. That allowed soldiers to work through the events they shared. The other problem with the Viet-Nam war was, people would go over by themselves, join a unit by themselves and come home by themselves, they had no one to share the events with.


The cure to reducing PTSD or eliminating it is dealing with it sooner. Your time in the hospital with others could have added to helping you deal with the events of combat.


I would suggest reading that site on PTSD or finding a few more, know what symptoms to look for if your mind decides it needs to deal with those events again.

Wish you the best,

H.

[Laconian]

During the Civil War era, it was known as The Soldier's Heart, WWI as Shell Shock, WWII/Korea as Battle Fatigue, by Vietnam and forward it is PTSD. It is all the same, the mind attempting to deal extraordinary stress, shock or circumstances.

Early in WWII, several American military psychiatrists tried to study how long a soldier could be left at the front, in extended combat, before he became a battle casualty due to mental duress. They came up with 30 days. To identify those in the line for thirty days, they came up with a badge: a KY long rifle imposed over a blue field (the color of the Infantry) wrapped in a wreath, the Combat Infantryman's Badge. It was designed to move a guy from the line to the rear for R&R. Because of manpower shortages the Army violated the 30-day rule a lot. We have always had more mental casualties than direct fire and indirect fire casualties.

[oregongrunt]

That just is not true. VA oringally died claims unless there was a CIB or a CAR.

I also worked for the VA while attending college, it is 100% true. Very, very few people that came through that office had CIBs or CARs.

[sgtoutback]

LT. COL. DAVE GROSSMAN, U.S. Army (Ret.)
has written some good articles on the subject and has some interesting techniques on dealing with some of the effects of both traumatic events as they happen and the aftermath.
http://www.killology.com/art_psych_casualties.htm and his book On Combat

[Hollis]

I also worked for the VA while attending college, it is 100% true. Very, very few people that came through that office had CIBs or CARs.


Do you know how many claims where accepted? Sorry I did not mean to doubt what you said. My thinking was claims that are accepted. I have been in the VA system for a long time. I have heard were people try to pull a fast one. One reason the claim process is slow is fraudulent claims and actual verification process.


Again, I apologize, I have not seen/heard of a accepted claim that the person did not have a CIB or CAR, but this was sometime back.

H

[Moose]

I was taught that it does not have to be a single shocking/traumatic event that triggers PTSD, prolonged exposure to stress can cause it too. Not only the "grunts" are affected, people sitting in HQ by the radio can also be under heavy stress etc. Is this something you have also heard?

[Hollis]

I was thought that it does not have to be a single shocking/traumatic event that triggers PTSD, prolonged exposure to stress can cause it too. Not only the "grunts" are affected people sitting in HQ by the radio can also be under heavy stress etc.


Any body who experiences abnormal trauma. Also the effects of PTSD can range from very mild to debilitating.

Again, it can be victims of crime, accidents, etc. At first the VA limited too just Combat people. According to Oregon grunt it seems to have open it up more. I am waiting for his reply. Next time I am at the VA I will ask.

[jimmytx3]

hi all, i thought i would post this, i went back to the falkland islands in november last year, and while i was there i met a friend and coleague gus hales, he wrote a very moving poem, which i thought was quite touching, the video is not very good but the audio is clear bear with till he reads the poem in church.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GtLlhuLhxw
By Gus Hales
Every year on Remembrance Sunday
I sit in the corner of the British Legion Bar,
Dressed in blazer, shirt, Regimental tie
And polished shoes, with my head held high.
But deep in my mind, where nobody goes,
I see a wooden cross where the wind of victory lies.
“Three Cheers for Victory,” I hear the politician say.
But you never asked me about my victory.
And, if they did, I would have explained it this way:
It isn’t your flags or emblems of war,
Or the marching of troops past the Palace’s door.
It isn’t Mrs. Thatcher on the balcony high,
Reaffirming her pledge to serve or die.
But it’s the look and the pain on a teenager’s face
As he dies for his country, In a far off place.
It’s the guns and the shells and the Phosphorus grenades
And the wounded and the dead in freshly cut graves
Or the grieving wife or the fatherless child
Whose young, tender life will be forever defiled.
Or the alcoholic soldier with a shattered mind
Who takes the suicide option for some peace to find.
Well, that’s my victory but no one knows
For its deep in my mind where nobody goes.