Ukraine to join Nato with Bush's backing,says Yushchenko

[Afro-European]

KIEV, March 13 (RIA Novosti) - Ukraine's president said on Thursday that his country's moves toward membership of NATO would be discussed during U.S. President George W. Bush's visit in late March. Viktor Yushchenko was quoted by his press office as saying after talks with European Union leaders in Brussels that the Membership Action Plan that paves the way for membership in the military bloc would be discussed with Bush in Kiev.
The visit by the U.S. president will take place on March 31-April 1, ahead of a NATO summit in Romania in April.
Yushchenko said he was positive the NATO summit would back the Ukrainian leaders' request to allow the ex-Soviet state to join the action plan.
"I am positive we will realize our desire to join the Membership Action Plan," he said.
In January, Ukraine's pro-Western president, prime minister and parliamentary speaker sent a letter to the alliance's Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer saying they hoped that the country could join the plan.
Opposition parties recently blocked parliamentary work for over a month in protest against the move, demanding a referendum on the matter. Recent opinion polls showed that over 50% of Ukrainians would vote against joining NATO.
Parliament recently reopened for work after a compromise decision was reached on the possibility of holding a referendum on the issue.
Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, has threatened to target nuclear missiles on Ukraine if it joined NATO. Georgia is also seeking membership in the organization.
Western countries have been cautious about the two countries' NATO bids, unwilling to further anger Russia, already irritated by and wary of the alliance's ongoing eastward expansion.
Relations between Russia and the West have also been strained over Washington's plans to open new missile bases in Central Europe, recognition of Kosovo and other issues.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20080313/101274758.html

More than 50% of the population is against this plan yet he proceeds with it.Democracy?
This issue 'll tear Ukraine apart.

[Dextermination]

I hope that Ukraine doesn't join NATO, that would be a big mistake.

[Igor01]

More than 50% of the population is against this plan yet he proceeds with it.Democracy?
This issue 'll tear Ukraine apart.

Ukraine in its current political and ethnic make-up cannot and will not survive such a move. The "orange" polititians can only ignore half of more of the country's population for so long. The country will need decades if not longer to actually come together as one nation with a somewhat common identity, for now there at least two (or three if you count the South) Ukraines with very different mindsets and visions of the future.

Ukraine should stay neutral and try to capitalize on their unique geographical situation between Russia and EU.

[AlexMartin2]

Ukrainian parliament adopt a law about joining NATO recently. By this law decision could me made only after referendum. So, Mr Yuschenko can discuss it with anyone, but final judgement will be made by people.

BTW, Is NATO countries except US want Ukraine & Georgia to join?

[Bongopete]

Im not Europe, but I would prefer that the Ukraine and Georgia didnt get accepted.

[daily666]

Bush backing? He won't be in the office in 8 months and such process takes a lot more than this. And I agree, the whole thing could destabilize Ukraine for sure.

[muck]

I don't do want that as well. In my humble opinion, this step will only be taken to piss the Russians off and to grant the Ukraine access to more modern military equipment from the West.
But on the other hand, the Ukrainians will probably add some firepower, for example for Afghanistan.
NATO could throw us out then, we don't deserve the membership anymore.

[Bongopete]

I wish NATO would throw us out instead.

[daily666]

I wish NATO would throw us out instead.

You'd have to throw yourself out. Not possible.

[intelligenzija]

I don't do want that as well. In my humble opinion, this step will only be taken to piss the Russians off and to grant the Ukraine access to more modern military equipment from the West.
But on the other hand, the Ukrainians will probably add some firepower, for example for Afghanistan.
NATO could throw us out then, we don't deserve the membership anymore.

Does Ukraine have to be in NATO to do so? They could help out in Conflicts without being in NATO, NATO would just have to convince them. I mean they went to Iraq (before it turned to Orangistan)

Ok I know.. stupid comment :-/

But what should Ukraine join the NATO for? There is absolutely no need. Most people don't want it, Europe doesn't want it.
The major supporter are the USA of course :roll:

[Bongopete]

Russia wants it too. Gives them something to be angry about.

[Igor01]

... the Ukrainians will probably add some firepower, for example for Afghanistan.

No political power in Ukraine that has a even a semblance of sanity will advocate sending Ukrainian troops to Afghanistan. The memories of the Soviet campaign are too fresh and painful. Such move would be the end of that hypothetical political power. They may be greedy for handouts and eager to earn browny points but fools they ain't.

[Bongopete]

Hey, anyone know what the final word was on Yushchenko's poisoning? What was it and who did it?

[jennery587]

Russia wants it too. Gives them something to be angry about.

revenge russia will start back up hugo chavez in latin american selling nuclear warhead selling them more sukhoi more s-400 triumph more submarine. what would we do

[Bongopete]

revenge russia will start back up hugo chavez in latin american selling nuclear warhead selling them more sukhoi more s-400 triumph more submarine. what would we do

Doubt Russia would sell nukes to Chavez, as to the rest...let them.

[jennery587]

well let see

[Bongopete]

You make good points.

[conefire]

Its not my purpose to start a war here BUT, there are a few things I would like to ask.

First. Why do so many members posting on this thread wish the Ukraine to stay a vassal of Russia? The Ukraine has for the first time in modern history a chance to plot its own course as a free and independent country. This Independence is not something that has only been around since the "Orange" revolution, at least 2 other times in modern history has the Ukraine tried to break from Russia, once following WWI and again during WWII when Ukraine nationals fought both the Germans and the Russians to gain independence.

Second. Posters point to the fact that only 50% of the Ukraine want to join NATO, that is a figure that has been getting bigger since the idea of joining was first floated. I recall it being only 30% 2 years ago....so the trend seems to be going toward the favor of growing. I would also like to know who and were the 50% number came from. I would also point out that if a poll were taken in Spain or Greece, or Hungary I dare say the results would be very close to those of the Ukraine....but you don't see these nations running out of NATO.

Thirdly. Posters say is the US who is pushing the Ukraine into NATO.Well maybe the US is, but flip it and lets talk about Russia who's pushing and using threats of nuclear weapons, shutting off gas, and etc. to FORCE the Ukraine not to join NATO? Why would any country tie itself to a country that treats its little brother like that. NATO gives the Ukraine the OPTION to join, Russia TELLS the Ukraine not to join.

I agree with this post. Whatever the Ukranian choice will be in the end, it should be THEIR choice. Not the result of bullying by Russia or appeasing by us Europeans.

[Ceriy]

Does Ukraine have to be in NATO to do so? They could help out in Conflicts without being in NATO, NATO would just have to convince them. I mean they went to Iraq (before it turned to Orangistan)

Ukraine already helps NATO.
In Afghanistan: 1 officer in HQ, Kabul, 2 medical officers work with Lithuanian troops.
Iraq: 3 officers with NATO Training Mission in Iraq.
Kosovo: 184 in POLUKRBAT part of Multinational brigade “East”. 4 officers in HQ.
During last two years 3 Ukrainian Navy ships participated in Operation "Active Endeavor".

Ukrainians are still in Iraq, only 37 officers.

[Mamont]

Hey, anyone know what the final word was on Yushchenko's poisoning? What was it and who did it?
No final words, they of course knew, who was involved and how, for about 1,5 years, but this issue rise only when Ush needs to play his "oh, i was poisoned!" card. Stupid fag. Sometimes i sincerely wish that some god-guided brick would fall on his head..

[Flamming_Python]

Its not my purpose to start a war here BUT, there are a few things I would like to ask.

And I would be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge, which admittedly on the subject of Ukraine is not what it could be. Ukrainian/ex-Soviet forumers feel free to correct my mistakes.


First. Why do so many members posting on this thread wish the Ukraine to stay a vassal of Russia? The Ukraine has for the first time in modern history a chance to plot its own course as a free and independent country. This Independence is not something that has only been around since the "Orange" revolution, at least 2 other times in modern history has the Ukraine tried to break from Russia, once following WWI and again during WWII when Ukraine nationals fought both the Germans and the Russians to gain independence.What's this Ukraine you speak of? The Ukraine I know has always been a multi-ethnic entity, tied to Russia and Belarus. You have strong ethnic Ukrainian identity in the West coupled with a large amount of Polonised Ukrainians, strong Russian identity in the east coupled with a large amount of pro-Russian Ukrainians. The South-West contains the Gallician Ukrainians, and an increasing amount of Crimean Tatars in the Crimea. And the middle is a big mix of Russified Ukrainians, pro-West Ukrainians, and Russians. The problem is that Ukraine is not so much a country, but an area, and what's more, this area has changed over time. At the time of WW1, and again WW2 it was a considerably smaller entity, only getting to its current size when Khrushchev gave it Crimea. There are also a great many ethnic Ukrainians not only in Russia as a whole, but also in Russian lands bordering the Ukraine, as well as closely related groups like the Kuban Cossacks directly to the East of the Ukraine. Pridnestrovie's/Transdniestr's population is composed as much by Ukrainians as Russians.

Now when you say that The Ukraine wanted to tear away from Russia, I ask you which Ukraine, backed up by which people? The Nationalist organizations present in the West for the most part fought on the same side as the Germans. Some of them turned against the Germans later in the war, and a smaller number still were against both the Soviets and Germans from the beginning. You also had a number of those Ukrainians joining the SS legions responsible for guarding concentration camps. Interestingly, the largest of those very same nationalist organizations, resurrected following glasnost' and the fall of the USSR, sent men to fight against the Russians in Chechnya, some 50 years later. However, those guys represent the minority (i.e.extreme right wing) of peoples present in minority areas of the country. Most people have milder views, even with if they have a political inclination to Russia or the West.

There did exist a poltical entity called Ukraine after the Russian revolution. But when you look at the what territory it claimed to be its own, what territory it actually controlled, what people were in power, who they represented and how many people approved them among the general population, it all becomes a bit of a muddle. Much like the new Ukraine that came out of the USSR in '91.


Second. Posters point to the fact that only 50% of the Ukraine want to join NATO, that is a figure that has been getting bigger since the idea of joining was first floated. I recall it being only 30% 2 years ago....so the trend seems to be going toward the favor of growing. I would also like to know who and were the 50% number came from. I would also point out that if a poll were taken in Spain or Greece, or Hungary I dare say the results would be very close to those of the Ukraine....but you don't see these nations running out of NATO.Look again carefully at the article. Firstly it doesn't say only, it says over, which means that the actual figure could theoretically be anywhere from (50 + 100/population of Ukraine)% to 100%. Secondly, it doesn't say want to join NATO, it says would vote against joining NATO. Important difference, since generally in any opinion pole such as this, there is always going to be a good chunk of people who are neutral, their size being negatively correlated to the importance of the issue at hand to the general population. Even if there were only 51% or so opposed to joining NATO, the amount of people wanting to join NATO would not be larger than about 35-40%.

Of the opinion polls I have seen, usually anywhere from 55-70% of the population is against joining NATO, and the amount of people for joining NATO is rarely greater than 30%. All the polls use different methods, get different results, have different agendas so you just have to add em' all and get the average if you want to have a semi-good idea of how the population feels about the issue. And from what I have seen the amount of pro-NATO support in these polls hasn't increased significantly over the past few years. Nowadays it's in stagnation, doesn't change much, just oscillates a bit.


Thirdly. Posters say is the US who is pushing the Ukraine into NATO.Well maybe the US is, but flip it and lets talk about Russia who's pushing and using threats of nuclear weapons, shutting off gas, and etc. to FORCE the Ukraine not to join NATO? Why would any country tie itself to a country that treats its little brother like that. NATO gives the Ukraine the OPTION to join, Russia TELLS the Ukraine not to join.You are denying that NATO member countries pursue their own capitalist interests? Most of the arguments, conflicts of interests that any country has with another is rooted in economics, and equally economic pressure is used to get one's way. The USA to this day has still not lifted it's economic embargo on Cuba. The pressure over greater gas prices is happening as much with Russia's allies like Belarus and Armenia as with Ukraine. A few days ago, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan announced a hike of all their gas exports to Russia, and to Europe via Russia, to global prices by 2009. No doubt such a move helped Russia a great deal with it's negotiations with the Ukraine. Ukraine's populist politicians, instead of behind the door-wrangling with Russia as Armenia, Belarus, etc.. are doing, are instead taking advantage of their connections with the West to publicize these negotiations into a political issue, that way putting the blame on Russia, and avoiding Russia's economic arguments.

[Flamming_Python]

Hey, anyone know what the final word was on Yushchenko's poisoning? What was it and who did it?

I guess that depends on whose final word it is.

[Bongopete]

I guess that depends on whose final word it is.
I guess then it wouldnt be the 'final word'.
Ok, anyway that sort of answers my question.

[Kapitan]

And I would be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge, which admittedly on the subject of Ukraine is not what it could be. Ukrainian/ex-Soviet forumers feel free to correct my mistakes.


Very nice, accurate post.

To add, slightly, to this: my wife's Ukrainian. Born and lived in Ukraine (Kiev), but when USSR fell apart and she was able to choose which citizenship she wanted she chose ours (Russian) because she didn't want any part of the bull**** going over in Ukraine.

We never even go to the western parts of it anymore, like Lviv for instance.

Way too many nationalistic (yet very Polanized, I wonder if they are even aware..) idiots who spit on us (quite literally) whenever they hear the Russian language.

Eastern Ukraine is like day and night difference.. although a lot of those "westerners" have been coming to Kiev and the surrounding areas over the past few years.

[Bongopete]

Kapitan, after all these years, why the spitting on the part of the western Ukranians?

[Kapitan]

Kapitan, after all these years, why the spitting on the part of the western Ukranians?

They believe we were the evil occupants.

[Bongopete]

Even if so, wasnt that more than a few years ago? Why are they still holding on to this?

[Kapitan]

Even if so, wasnt that more than a few years ago? Why are they still holding on to this?

I've no idea, but even if they hold a grudge - why is it against us?

USSR was no more Russian than it was Ukrainian, the only difference being that Russian was the official language of USSR.

Russian people didn't get any special privileges over Ukrainians, Estonians, etc. And we didn't want/like USSR any more than they did.

[Flamming_Python]

I've no idea, but even if they hold a grudge - why is it against us?

USSR was no more Russian than it was Ukrainian, the only difference being that Russian was the official language of USSR.

Russian people didn't get any special privileges over Ukrainians, Estonians, etc. And we didn't want/like USSR any more than they did.

Same reason why Azerbaijan and Armenia started open war during late 80's, early 90's, why Uzbekistan and Tajikistan went to war in same sort of time period, Tajikistan's civil war, Georgia vs. Abkhazia, Georgia vs. South Ossetia, Russia vs. Chechnya, non-Moldovans vs. Moldovans in Pridnestrovie, not to mention troubles between North Ossetia and Ingushetia, Crimean Tatars vs. Russians in Crimea, Russians in Baltic republics, riots in Yakutia, Tuva...

Most of these are the result of populist politicians resurrecting old tensions among disillusioned populations, criminal organizations taking advantage of the chaos, radical ideologies, nationalism driven by poverty and instability of USSR collapse. Same happened in all countries and among all ethnic groups in the USSR. Some had worse troubles, some did better, but regardless we all got into the same mess together, which is why the same problems and trends, not only economical but also political, social, etc... can be found in Russia, Ukraine, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, etc...

[Flamming_Python]

Now for some more positive news woot



Russia, Ukraine put forward MS-21 aircraft engine proposal



21:22 | 14/ 03/ 2008 http://img.rian.ru/i/b_print.gif (http://en.rian.ru/business/20080314/101364836-print.html)
MOSCOW, March 14 (RIA Novosti) - Moscow's Salut aircraft component maker and Ukraine's only producer of plane engines came up with a proposal Friday to develop a new engine for Russia's ambitious MS-21 passenger airliner.
The single-aisle MS-21 family of passenger aircraft, due to enter service in 2012, is designed to seat between 130 and 170 passengers and to fly up to 5,000 kilometers (3,125 miles), or 6,350 kilometers (4,000 miles) for the longer-range model.
At a meeting in Moscow to outline the advanced engine concept for the MS-21 plane and create the project design and production team, the Salut CEO, Yury Yeliseyev, said if the joint Russian-Ukrainian project won the bid, the engine could be installed in the new aircraft in two and a half years. He said it would take a similar period to complete flight tests.
Salut and Motor Sich have already jointly developed a number of aircraft engines.
The cost of projects to develop 4+ and fifth-generation aircraft engines have been estimated at $4.5-6 billion dollars.
The MS-21 plane is being developed by Russia's major manufacturing companies - Ilyushin, Tupolev and Yakovlev - to replace the aging Tu-154, which currently services some 80% of Russia's passenger and freight traffic and also the Airbus A-320 and Boeing 737 aircraft.
The new jet is expected to be 10-15% more efficient than the Boeing and Airbus of its class. However, its target price will be just $35 million, $20 million below that of the similarly-sized Boeing 737-700.

[Kapitan]

Same reason why Azerbaijan and Armenia started open war during late 80's, early 90's, why Uzbekistan and Tajikistan went to war in same sort of time period, Tajikistan's civil war, Georgia vs. Abkhazia, Georgia vs. South Ossetia, Russia vs. Chechnya, non-Moldovans vs. Moldovans in Pridnestrovie, not to mention troubles between North Ossetia and Ingushetia, Crimean Tatars vs. Russians in Crimea, Russians in Baltic republics, riots in Yakutia, Tuva...

Most of these are the result of populist politicians resurrecting old tensions among disillusioned populations, criminal organizations taking advantage of the chaos, radical ideologies, nationalism driven by poverty and instability of USSR collapse. Same happened in all countries and among all ethnic groups in the USSR. Some had worse troubles, some did better, but regardless we all got into the same mess together, which is why the same problems and trends, not only economical but also political, social, etc... can be found in Russia, Ukraine, Armenia, Kyrgyzstan, etc...

That does not answer why us though.
Do those Ukrainian nationalists hate Armenians? May be Kazakhs? Perhaps they hate the Chechens, or Tadjiks?

No, they hate us. Why us?

[Bongopete]

That's what I was asking. It seems like so many of the problems are really age old and no one alive today was around whenever the original problem began.

[Kapitan]

That's what I was asking. It seems like so many of the problems are really age old and no one alive today was around whenever the original problem began.

Those happen to be the eternal Russian questions:

1. Кто виноват? (Who's at fault?)
2. Что делать? (What are we supposed to do now?)

[Sergei]

Its not my purpose to start a war here BUT, there are a few things I would like to ask.

First. Why do so many members posting on this thread wish the Ukraine to stay a vassal of Russia? The Ukraine has for the first time in modern history a chance to plot its own course as a free and independent country. This Independence is not something that has only been around since the "Orange" revolution, at least 2 other times in modern history has the Ukraine tried to break from Russia, once following WWI and again during WWII when Ukraine nationals fought both the Germans and the Russians to gain independence.

Ukraine was never a "vassal" of Russia in the first place. Had its own seat in UN from the very beginning. Krushev and Brezhnev are both ukrainians who were running the Soviet Union for better or worse.
Using the language like "vassals" is better applied to relationships between Poland and US, Baltic countries and US, Georgia and US - the "vassals" look hungrily at the possible food left-overs (read dollars) that might be thrown their way.



Second. Posters point to the fact that only 50% of the Ukraine want to join NATO, that is a figure that has been getting bigger since the idea of joining was first floated. I recall it being only 30% 2 years ago....so the trend seems to be going toward the favor of growing. I would also like to know who and were the 50% number came from. I would also point out that if a poll were taken in Spain or Greece, or Hungary I dare say the results would be very close to those of the Ukraine....but you don't see these nations running out of NATO.

The real number of those willing to join is around 25%. Hardly enough for the USchenko crew to get anywhere near admittance. You are right about the trend, though. At least 15 non-governmental and governmental brainwashing institutions have been very busy the last 4 years - brainwashing ukrainians that with joining of NATO they will get cheap sausage too. :)
But when the pResident goes against the wishes of people - this is called "democracy" in modern western euphemism.



Thirdly. Posters say is the US who is pushing the Ukraine into NATO.Well maybe the US is, but flip it and lets talk about Russia who's pushing and using threats of nuclear weapons, shutting off gas, and etc. to FORCE the Ukraine not to join NATO? Why would any country tie itself to a country that treats its little brother like that. NATO gives the Ukraine the OPTION to join, Russia TELLS the Ukraine not to join.
Russia is not pushing anybody, on the contrary it is being very passive in its foreign policy.
If it was to pursue its foreign policy as aggressively as US, USchenko would be having a gas at the price of GB and trade embargo like Cuba.
NATO gives Ukraine an only option supply cheap cannon fodder to fight wars in Afganistan and elsewhere with vague chances of ever sticking up for Ukraine if for example the Tatars decide to break away the Crimea "the Kosovo way".
Thanks, but no thanks.

[RomanS]

I love how westerners (no offence to many) and westerners like Trace have to put their 2 cents and throw down their expert on Russian, Ukrainian, Soviet history and interior affairs card on the table.

Dont you have your own worries? Ukraine and Russia are not your neighbors, stop worrying about them for once, you dont know much about them. You were never born there, grew up there or lived there.
You have your own history to critique and your own image that is not doing so well in many parts of the world, to hang on TO !

[He219]

Dont you have your own worries? Ukraine and Russia are not your neighbors, stop worrying about them for once, you dont know much about them. You were never born there, grew up there or lived there.
Isn't that what happened to Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal?

The US totally ignored Afghanistan instead of funding education, reconstruction of it's infrastructure and seeing to it's defense and security needs.
Instead we sat back and saw the Taliban rise to power and give shelter to the enemies that attack us.
We shoudn't allow the opportunities of self-determination wither under totalitarian rule, anywhere.

Isolationism doesn't work in a technologically globalized world.

[Berkut]

I guess telling another country to do something or ELSE we will target you with nuclear weapons is your idea of passive

thats the kind of play on words that manipulates opinions of westenerns. Putin said it times and times again: "We will target NATO bases in Ukraine/Poland, because we see them as a threat"

[Afro-European]

Not true.A total of 248 deputies out of 423 registered in the assembly hall voted for the resolution that the membership issue to be decided in a nationwide referendum.

KIEV, March 6 (Xinhua) -- The Ukrainian parliament passed on Thursday a resolution stipulating that the membership issue will be decided in a nationwide referendum.

A total of 248 deputies out of 423 registered in the assembly hall voted for the resolution.

Parliament Speaker Arseniy Yatsenyuk opened Thursday the parliamentary session after weeks of paralyzing.

"We have overcome one of the longest crises in the history of the Ukrainian parliament," Yatsenyuk told lawmakers.

The opposition lawmakers, who are against joining NATO, agreed to return to work after leaders of all parliamentary fractions signed a protocol of understanding.

President Viktor Yushchenko, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Parliament Speaker Arseniy Yatsenyuk sent a letter to NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer in January, expressing their hope that Ukraine could join the NATO membership action plan at a NATO summit scheduled for early April in Bucharest, Romania.

Since then, the opposition, which is calling on Ukrainian leaders to reverse the decision to request further NATO integration, has been blocking parliamentary work.
http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=584561






Ukrainian parliament adopt a law about joining NATO recently. By this law decision could me made only after referendum. So, Mr Yuschenko can discuss it with anyone, but final judgement will be made by people.

BTW, Is NATO countries except US want Ukraine & Georgia to join?

[Igor01]

So you are telling me I and others should not post on an open thread on this forum?

We are here to discuss things freely (as far as the forum rules will alow) but any such discussions can only be constructive if the parties expressing conflicting views don't take theirs as the supreme truth and try to argument their position with facts. We should also not dismiss a well argumented view simply because it's contrary to ours. I, for example, would not attempt to preach to you about issues you have a lot of first hand experience in while I am familiar with them only through accounts of others.

Similarily, you may want to consider the opinions of those who lived in USSR/post-USSR all or most of their lives. Having said that, I respectfully suggest that you re-read Pythons post with a less dismissive mindset, he's pretty much spot on. Your replies tell me that you do not truly understand the issues and your comparisons (nation vs territory etc.) seem to confirm that. Simplifying the issues is a good way to arrive at completely wrong conclusions.

Just for the record, I am half Ukrainian (Western) and half Russian and I've lived both in Russia and in Ukraine, for some strange reason most of my friends are Ukrainians as well.

[Afro-European]

Does it matter? Bush sr was the one that first persuaded ex-Warsaw pact members to join Nato after Gorbachev withdrew Soviet troops from those countries.Some of them joined in 1999 and the last(Baltic states in 2004).When it comes to Nato eastward expansion,all US presidents have had the same policy.
r

Bush backing? He won't be in the office in 8 months and such process takes a lot more than this. And I agree, the whole thing could destabilize Ukraine for sure.

[daily666]

Ukraine was never a "vassal" of Russia in the first place. Had its own seat in UN from the very beginning. Krushev and Brezhnev are both ukrainians who were running the Soviet Union for better or worse.
Using the language like "vassals" is better applied to relationships between Poland and US, Baltic countries and US, Georgia and US - the "vassals" look hungrily at the possible food left-overs (read dollars) that might be thrown their way.

The real number of those willing to join is around 25%. Hardly enough for the USchenko crew to get anywhere near admittance. You are right about the trend, though. At least 15 non-governmental and governmental brainwashing institutions have been very busy the last 4 years - brainwashing ukrainians that with joining of NATO they will get cheap sausage too. :)
But when the pResident goes against the wishes of people - this is called "democracy" in modern western euphemism.


Russia is not pushing anybody, on the contrary it is being very passive in its foreign policy.
If it was to pursue its foreign policy as aggressively as US, USchenko would be having a gas at the price of GB and trade embargo like Cuba.
NATO gives Ukraine an only option supply cheap cannon fodder to fight wars in Afganistan and elsewhere with vague chances of ever sticking up for Ukraine if for example the Tatars decide to break away the Crimea "the Kosovo way".
Thanks, but no thanks.

No? Really? Russia Passive?

From this thread:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27787

Don't worry, this is just the ugly face of russian fashism calling.

I can't stand the bull**** you're spewing on this site, so I shall quote your post from way back in 2004


..........we have THE WHOLE UKRAINE vs. a bunch of common criminals temporary in charge, but that will change soon. There are mass demonstrations in the east of Ukraine - Kharkov, Sumy, Dnepropetrovsk.
And yes, there is a bunch of russian spetsnas in the government building, I know a Moscow accent when I hear one. Those guys are ordered to shoot anyone who will penetrate the place. Now what they are doing there is a separate matter for an international inquiry and scandal that will cost Putin dearly. I wonder what would you say if ukrainian spetsnaz would be stationed in Kremlin?

This all stands in a great contradiction to what you're saying here. Including giving thanks for Polish support of free Ukraine, and to Canadian diaspora. Saying that thugs from Moscow try to give away your democracy and stuff. I mean, what the hell happened?

[Afro-European]

Positive news indeed.That's a very big deal if it goes through.
Thanx for posting it.Ukraine,as a buffer state,'d be a great link between Russia and the West.If their politicians were smart,they 'd have exploited the strategic position the have.
Ukraine relies on Russia for oil and gas and Russia relies on Ukraine for some of its military-industrial complexes.They really need to put those stupid sh!t aside and see what's good for both countries.



Now for some more positive news woot

[Afro-European]

thats the kind of play on words that manipulates opinions of westenerns. Putin said it times and times again: "We will target NATO bases in Ukraine/Poland, because we see them as a threat"

When did he say it? This is what he said:"Russian President Vladimir Putin has threatened to point the country's missiles at neighboring Ukraine IF it allows the United States to deploy its missile defense shield within its borders".
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0213/p99s01-duts.html
Any US president that cares for his country's national security 'd react that way too if Russia or China has to deploy "defensive" missiles in Canada,Mexico or Cuba.

[Afro-European]

Pfft I dont think the Warsaw countries that joined Nato needed to be persuaded, more like they Ran to Brussels and got in line at the Nato HQ.

Do more research before coming up with such statements.

[delio]

....
Pfft I dont think the Warsaw countries that joined Nato needed to be persuaded, more like they ran to Brussels and got in line at the Nato HQ.

ha, ha!

[Flamming_Python]

No? Really? Russia Passive?

From this thread:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27787


I can't stand the bull**** you're spewing on this site, so I shall quote your post from way back in 2004



This all stands in a great contradiction to what you're saying here. Including giving thanks for Polish support of free Ukraine, and to Canadian diaspora. Saying that thugs from Moscow try to give away your democracy and stuff. I mean, what the hell happened?

roflrofl

Classic...

[Danik]

Russia is not pushing anybody, on the contrary it is being very passive in its foreign policy.
If it was to pursue its foreign policy as aggressively as US, USchenko would be having a gas at the price of GB and trade embargo like Cuba.
NATO gives Ukraine an only option supply cheap cannon fodder to fight wars in Afganistan and elsewhere with vague chances of ever sticking up for Ukraine if for example the Tatars decide to break away the Crimea "the Kosovo way".
Thanks, but no thanks.

They are bringing Ukraine to market prices for gas shortly, I believe that last week Russia threatened to cut supplies to Ukraine by 1/4, the reason being debt, regardless, the pressure is countered by pressure from western Europe that demands that gas keeps flowing because ultimately they are affected by the cuts, probably more so than Ukraine. They can not enforce a full pledged embargo because Russia can not prevent anything from leaving or entering Ukraine, unlike Cuba, Russia is not the only market for Ukraine and they have a much more diversified economy, outside of tourism, sugar production, and oil refining which constituted Cuba's.

Whatever you feel the negative affects of joining are, the Ukrainian government feels its best to join NATO. Reason range from a possibility to enter the WTO and ultimately into some form of Free-Trade agreement with the EU. The economic and developmental benefits to the country are vast, right now a country which contains a quarter of the worlds most fertile land under utilizes more than half of it, its steel trade is coming under direct competition from China driving its price and ultimately the revenue of the state down. Ukraine stands to gain from foreign expertise, whether its economic or military.

Both Russia and Ukraine contain tremendous potential for development due to their physical and their intellectual resources. This **** measuring contest isn't good for anyone.

[GazB]

I wonder if those who starved to death during the Russian genocide of the Ukrainian peoples during the 30's feel the same as you.

I think those that starved to death in the 1930s are not really feeling very much at all, but if they could feel anything I would wonder why they would hate Russians when it was the Georgian Stalin that called the shots for the Soviet Union... not Russian people of today. BTW the 1930s included the great depression and there were problems everywhere at that time too.


I guess telling another country to do something or ELSE we will target you with nuclear weapons is your idea of passive

If your neighbour decides to join a gang that was created for the purpose of fighting what would you do? Would you still cut the part of his hedge that joins onto yours? Would you still happily lend him your lawn mower?

And the Russia didnt use Ukrainians in its war in Afganistan?


And the Russia didnt use Ukrainians in its war in Afganistan?

No. Tsarist Russia never invaded Afghanistan. The Soviet Union chose to invade Afghanistan, but Russia was part of the Soviet Union just like the Ukraine was.


And if I remeber correctly it was mother Russia who removed the Tartars from the Ukraine and is now very happy to see them moving back!

Pretty sure that was Stalin, so it is really Georgia that they should be angry with.


So all the things you say NATO could do to you Russia has already done over and over and over and over.

Russia? Russia was not a separate country during the period of all the "crimes against the Ukraine" that you mention. If Russia is to be blamed for all of the actions taken by the Soviet Union then the Ukraine, Georgia, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, and all the former republics of the Soviet Union also bear personal blame.


Isn't that what happened to Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal?

The US totally ignored Afghanistan instead of funding education, reconstruction of it's infrastructure and seeing to it's defense and security needs.
Instead we sat back and saw the Taliban rise to power and give shelter to the enemies that attack us.
We shoudn't allow the opportunities of self-determination wither under totalitarian rule, anywhere.

Isolationism doesn't work in a technologically globalized world.

Rubbish. The problem there was Pakistan. The US foolishly handed over all control to the Pakistani ISI and just kept giving them money, not caring what they did with it. After the Soviets left the pakistanis still had their network and all their connections and the experience of interfering in Afghanistan. The taleban were created and supported with Pakistani money and support. You can claim the afghans lost "self determination" because they were left to their own devices but the truth is they were left to the whim of Pakistan who thought the Taleban were a good idea... and secretly probably still do.


Saying that thugs from Moscow try to give away your democracy and stuff. I mean, what the hell happened?

Perhaps a year or two of the Orange revolution has changed his opinion... it is rather clear that the first decade of democracy in Russia was not the sunshine and happiness promised... become a democracy and be welcomed back into the fold of the international community... HA!

The communist chinese still get better press in the west than the democratic Russians...


Ukraine relies on Russia for oil and gas and Russia relies on Ukraine for some of its military-industrial complexes.They really need to put those stupid sh!t aside and see what's good for both countries.

Sounds like Russia needs to develop its own MIC in areas that it needs the Ukraine for now...


Don't you honestly think that Russia's response to a NATO base is provocative and overly heavy handed? Poland like the Ukraine is a free and independent country and has every right to act in its own interest.

Don't you think basing NATO forces in former WP and former Soviet republics after verbal promises that neither would happen is provocative? I'd personally put lots of tactical nuke delivery platforms in Kaliningrad myself... I mean if NATO is really defensive then they wont be used at all so what threat are they?


As it appears to the whole world, Ukraine goverment, elected by its people wants closer ties to the West, Russia threatens the Ukraine.

What it appears to the world is that ukraine wants to join a military alliance... NATO is not the EU... and if they choose to do that there will be consequences in its relationship with Russia. For Russia to spell these consequences out now allows the Ukrainian people to choose properly because they will know both the benefits and the costs of their decision.


Pfft I dont think the Warsaw countries that joined Nato needed to be persuaded, more like they Ran to Brussels and got in line at the Nato HQ.

The organisation that subsidised their military had dissolved and they needed a new a**** to hang from... Besides they can feel like a big country now that they a standing under the US's feet and pretend what they have to say is actually important to Russia.

[GazB]

Reason range from a possibility to enter the WTO and ultimately into some form of Free-Trade agreement with the EU. The economic and developmental benefits to the country are vast, right now a country which contains a quarter of the worlds most fertile land under utilizes more than half of it,

Hahahaha... I can see French farmers burning trucks as I read about all that fertile land in the Ukraine... infrastructure in the Ukraine and Russia is the main problem and needs a huge amount of investment. The real problem with that is that foreign investment results in foreign profits... They really need to solve these problems themselves... and BTW I don't care if the Ukraine does join NATO or not... it means nothing to me, and for Russia it means all those Ukrainian military products will eventually be replaced by Russian or even western ones. The Russians have a policy that if the local version is not up to scratch then a foreign substitute is acceptable. When the Ukraine joins NATO their products that can be replaced by Russian models likely will be... ie Illusion and Tupolev aircraft, and various Russian makers of trucks will also benefit, but with the Ukraine in NATO why favour a Ukrainian product over something they could buy from France or Germany? If the Ukraine does join NATO I wonder whether that will be good for the AN-70 or whether politics will kill it...

[RomanS]

Isn't that what happened to Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal?

The US totally ignored Afghanistan instead of funding education, reconstruction of it's infrastructure and seeing to it's defense and security needs.
Instead we sat back and saw the Taliban rise to power and give shelter to the enemies that attack us.
We shoudn't allow the opportunities of self-determination wither under totalitarian rule, anywhere.

Isolationism doesn't work in a technologically globalized world.

Oh actualy HE, im just giving the usual suspects some hard time. Honestly I dont care if Ukraine becomes Nato or part of other organizations. Its their business, im not even sure why Russia cares.


Plus Im not sure if we can compare Ukraine to Taliban of Afghanistan post Soviet war, unless this is how West sees it....

[intelligenzija]

OMG Trace,

You are talking so much bull****, people are not even able to follow you. Please stop that, please, I beg you

[He219]

Rubbish. The problem there was Pakistan. The US foolishly handed over all control to the Pakistani ISI and just kept giving them money, not caring what they did with it. After the Soviets left the pakistanis still had their network and all their connections and the experience of interfering in Afghanistan. The taleban were created and supported with Pakistani money and support. You can claim the afghans lost "self determination" because they were left to their own devices but the truth is they were left to the whim of Pakistan who thought the Taleban were a good idea... and secretly probably still do.
.
True on all points.
The American populus, however, remained ininformed and indifferent to what was happening until the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddha statues.

Oh actualy HE, im just giving the usual suspects some hard time. Honestly I dont care if Ukraine becomes Nato or part of other organizations. Its their business, im not even sure why Russia cares.

I realize what you were implying and I do see why Russia is concerned with ever increasing NATO expansion.
On this course there will only be suspicion and a continuation of Cold War brinksmanship.

Plus Im not sure if we can compare Ukraine to Taliban of Afghanistan post Soviet war, unless this is how West sees it....
Not comparing Russia with the Taliban, but advocating liberty over state domination and subjugation of individualism for post-soviet nations ..

Cheers.

[He219]

OMG no!234
Stick to intellible responses mate.
Discussion is welcome.

[DRA]

Whatever you feel the negative affects of joining are, the Ukrainian government feels its best to join NATO.

What you people can't seem to understand is that Ukranian "government" does not represent opinions and wishes of the general population.
Uschenko's approval rating is even lower than Bush's.
When several years ago an "orange revolution" was sponsored in Ukraine by the West, people didn't vote for Uschenko, people voted for a CHANGE from the era of Kravchuk and Kuchma.
A lot of Ukranians, just like our friend here Sergei and some members of my family, got very excited and emotional about the "new beginnings and brighter future". Others, including myself, could see right through all the bs and where it would fast and eventually lead to - guess who was right?
I could go on into lots of details with lots of examples but don't have time for all the that, so here are several key points:

-Ukranians are disillusioned in the group of people that refers to themselves as their government

-Ukranians are not confident in tomorrow

-Eastern Ukranians (educated, industrialised and russian speaking) hate/dislike western Ukranians (uneducated, unemployed because there is nothing but woods and mountains in the western Ukraine)

-In Crimea if you call somebody a Ukranian, there is a chance that you will get punched in the face

-Ukranians are becoming increasingly envious of Russians to whom, and I quote locals: "Putin gave back self respect and confidence"

-Ukraine is very fast becoming to Russia as what Mexico is to US - a source of cheap labor. To a lot of Ukranians, especially in the east, it is embarrassing, degrading and painful

-The idea that Ukraine can be successful a country of its own is not viable as the history proves. Ukranians, by large, have never wanted to be by themselves but always with somebody. To put it simply, as one of its ex prime-ministers said: "Ukranians are not a nation and country forming people"...

[RomanS]

Since its the Ukraines lawn I guess they have the right to do what they please with it, including having annual NATO picnics on it. None of the neighbors bussiness.


Trace,

Exactly, Im so glad Russia handled the Chechen conflict the way she wanted to. Since it was Russias lawn. But as I remember correctly west was calling Chechnya not Russias land. Funny how we choose friends and enemies these days, and especially decide who's land is who's.

[Rostov]

Not comparing Russia with the Taliban, but advocating liberty over state domination and subjugation of individualism for post-soviet nations ..

Cheers.

Actually there is no state dominations, there is only state desintegration. Kiev, Moscow and Novgorod all spoke same language at the dawn of a russian state.

[Bongopete]

Trace,

Exactly, Im so glad Russia handled the Chechen conflict the way she wanted to. Since it was Russias lawn. But as I remember correctly west was calling Chechnya not Russias land. Funny how we choose friends and enemies these days, and especially decide who's land is who's.


Uh hello :| actually here in the States, other than the leftist liberal press, most Americans, if they even knew about what was going on (Russia did not really seem to know how to get the word out over here) were more on the side of Russia rather than Chechnya...especially when there were terrorist acts that were done. Remember, the press in the States is more representative of a minority who know how to manipulate it than the populace at large.

[Danik]

What you people can't seem to understand is that Ukranian "government" does not represent opinions and wishes of the general population.
Uschenko's approval rating is even lower than Bush's.
When several years ago an "orange revolution" was sponsored in Ukraine by the West, people didn't vote for Uschenko, people voted for a CHANGE from the era of Kravchuk and Kuchma.
A lot of Ukranians, just like our friend here Sergei and some members of my family, got very excited and emotional about the "new beginnings and brighter future". Others, including myself, could see right through all the bs and where it would fast and eventually lead to - guess who was right?


I know all about it, its exactly what my family told me when I visited, that people were tired of the government and wanted change but knew it still the same old story with the new government.





I could go on into lots of details with lots of examples but don't have time for all the that, so here are several key points:

-Ukranians are disillusioned in the group of people that refers to themselves as their government

-Ukranians are not confident in tomorrow

I think other than the Swedes, Finns, Danes, and the Swiss most people are disillusioned with their governments all around the world. Given that Ukrainians may put less trust into their leaders.



-Eastern Ukranians (educated, industrialised and russian speaking) hate/dislike western Ukranians (uneducated, unemployed because there is nothing but woods and mountains in the western Ukraine)

Aha, so the ethnic Russians of the east are all bright educated workers while their unfortunate Ethnic Ukrainian cousins of the west are all farm dwelling peasants.



-In Crimea if you call somebody a Ukranian, there is a chance that you will get punched in the face


What if I call them Tatars?



-Ukranians are becoming increasingly envious of Russians to whom, and I quote locals: "Putin gave back self respect and confidence"

Again, our ethnic Russian friends are now a majority of the Ukrainian populace and provide opinions on their behalf. What self respect and confidence? If they have gained security, education, employment, infrastructure, and better lives than all the best. If by self respect you mean they feel better because Putin openly defies the West and they get to feel mega important then they should reconsider their definition of respect and confidence.



-Ukraine is very fast becoming to Russia as what Mexico is to US - a source of cheap labor. To a lot of Ukranians, especially in the east, it is embarrassing, degrading and painful

Ukraine has always been a source of cheap labor to Russia and cheap resources, just like the other republics of the old USSR. I was under the impression Russia now picks its imported labor from the former Asian republics of the USSR.


-The idea that Ukraine can be successful a country of its own is not viable as the history proves. Ukranians, by large, have never wanted to be by themselves but always with somebody. To put it simply, as one of its ex prime-ministers said: "Ukranians are not a nation and country forming people"...

I may not be an expert on Ukrainian history, but I can certainly doubt the validity of that statement. We are speaking of a population that doesn't even speak the same language as you. That is the problem of many ethnic Russians living in former Soviet republics, you consider yourselves a part of Russia and not the nations in which you live.

While discussing the gas situation with a girl from Crimea last Friday, I believe her sentiment sums it up: " A pochemu MI dolzhni IM deshovii gas davat?" this is coming from a holder of Ukrainian citizenship, you consider yourselves Russians first and foremost, not Ukrainian.

As someone who was made a refugee from Latvia by a government that saw its non native ethnic residents a threat to their culture and country, I can now full understand why this was done. The ethnic Russian minorities profess their loyalties to Russia, and no one else, by definition their interests can not ally with the interest of their respective countries unless only by chance.

[DRA]

Aha, so the ethnic Russians of the east are all bright educated workers while their unfortunate Ethnic Ukrainian cousins of the west are all farm dwelling peasants.
Ethnic Russians of the East??? Have you misread or purposefully misrepresenting?
What I have said is that Eastern Ukraine is the industrialized Ukraine. It is the part of Ukraine where are all the science, education, manufacturing, sports, cities, etc is in Ukraine. Western Ukraine, as I have mentioned in my previous post, are simply hillbillies with their own distinct culture and language.
To put it simply: Western Ukraine are a bunch of welfare counties, literally, as money that East earns are taken to Kiev and given as budget aid to the other bank of the Dnieper.



What if I call them Tatars?Some will not react as they are infact ethnic tatars and some will look at you as if you were an idiot as they consider themselves either crimeans (don't care about anybody outside the peninsula) or russians.




Ukraine has always been a source of cheap labor to Russia and cheap resources, just like the other republics of the old USSR.Always, except 1922 - 1991



I was under the impression Russia now picks its imported labor from the former Asian republics of the USSR.
Them too but they are mostly used in construction and unskilled labor.
Ukranians supply service industry.
Generally speaking there are legal and illegal immigrants and laborers in Russia from all over the former USSR.



I may not be an expert on Ukrainian history, but I can certainly doubt the validity of that statement. We are speaking of a population that doesn't even speak the same language as you.Check this out: appr. 70% percent of Ukraine's population use Russian or surjik to communicate at home. 70%!!!



While discussing the gas situation with a girl from Crimea last Friday, I believe her sentiment sums it up: " A pochemu MI dolzhni IM deshovii gas davat?" this is coming from a holder of Ukrainian citizenship, you consider yourselves Russians first and foremost, not Ukrainian.In case you didn't get it first time - Crimea doesn't consider itself Ukranian, it never was historically. Kiev has almost "0" power or influence in Crimea.
Don't take my word for it: drive through Crimea and tell me how many Ukranian flags you'll find.


As someone who was made a refugee from Latvia by a government that saw its non native ethnic residents a threat to their culture and country, I can now full understand why this was done. The ethnic Russian minorities profess their loyalties to Russia, and no one else, by definition their interests can not ally with the interest of their respective countries unless only by chance.You still don't get it: it is not about the "ethnic Russian minority", it is about two very very different cultures, mentalities and lifestyles.
Think of North and South during US civil war but even more different.

Now for some Bush & Uschenko cooperation according to oper (http://oper.ru/news/read.php?t=1051602351) (russian speaker only)

[non]

DRA, you type too much.
West of the Dnieper is "hillbilly" land. Crimea is...Crimea. East of the Dnieper speak mostly Russian on the street, and of all the shiny new novelties, Ukrainians seek employment in Russia. Ergo, Ukraine should not be a nation.:roll:
Shut up.

[Abu3ale]

If our president Yuschenko want he can join NATO...me a most of Ukranians dosent want:)ant THAT IS WHY he is afraid to make referendum on this question.

[GazB]

Your a very sick person, do you feel this way about all genocide? You have No respect. Using semantics like Stalin wasnt Russian is really pitiful way of glossing over the death of 8 million people. If you were trying to be funny about death you sir fell through your arse.


Where did I say their deaths were funny? I made a little bit of fun about you expecting the victims (ie people killed by Stalin) to not only being alive now but also to be reading this forum so they could give you a reply.
I also don't think Chechen dead are funny, nor Afghans, nor Vietnamese or Korean dead.


Since its the Ukraines lawn I guess they have the right to do what they please with it, including having annual NATO picnics on it. None of the neighbors bussiness.


Exactly right... they can invite anyone to their house and be friends with anyone, but I repeat if your neighbour invited a gang around so they could join and that gang was created to fight with you and your old gang, would you still be best buddies with your neighbour? I mean if they want to join this new gang they have got all new friends and obviously don't want to be your friend anymore...


More semantics, Tell you what Gaz you stand infront of the memorial in the Ukraine to the Afgan vets and you tell the grieving what you just told me. Jeez.....


No problem. There is no planet where the Soviet Union is Russia... you said Russia sent ukrainians to fight for them, when in actual fact it was Ukrainians, and Russians, and Belorussians, and all the other Soviet countries that sent all of the soviet countries to afghanistan. If what you said was considered true then stating that Ukrainians sent Russians to Afghanistan would also be true... and it is... as I have said.


Semantics its funny how you all hide behind Stalin was this or that so dont blame Russia but when it comes to Stalin victory during WWII you cant stop yourself from tounge kissing that fat Georgian, LOL, The whole world thinks Russia=Soviet Union, only the guys on this forum when backed into a corner find relief in hiding in semantics.


You are not very bright are you. You blame Russia for everything bad that happened in the Soviet Union yet the worst excesses the leadership of the Soviet Union were responsible for were under Stalin... a Georgian, and the whole idea for the Soviet Union was Lenin... who was, I believe Ukrainian. How can you blame Russia for the actions of Stalin or Lenin? Semantics have nothing to do with it... it is like blaming a specific state in the US for things the US does... is New York to blame for the nuclear bombing of Japan? Or perhaps it was New Yorks fault that the Vietnam war happened? Or maybe you could blame California for the attempt to irradicate the American Indian people.


pfft Semantics, semantics, your like a broken record, no facts just mirrors and smoke.


So if Russia is to blame for everything how did they benefit. How did they control Stalin to do the things he did to the Ukraine? I would like to hear a clear explaination that doesn't involve commies are evil and all ruskies are commies.


because I dont see eye to eye with the group think dosnt lessen my points if you even bothered to read them mate.

I have been reading your so called points and when I raise questions about their validity you claim I am just being picky. You are basically claiming all through the 30s the Ukrainians were apparantly being slaughtered in the fields by evil Russian civilians. Stalin probably even tried to save them because he was a nice friendly Georgian. The Russians never leapt to the defence of the Ukrainians but then neither did anyone else. I don't see how you can claim the Russians were the bad guys when the guy with the power that made all the decisions that led to starvation was Stalin... not the leader of Russia... he was the leader of the Soviet Union.



I think other than the Swedes, Finns, Danes, and the Swiss most people are disillusioned with their governments all around the world. Given that Ukrainians may put less trust into their leaders.


The Swedes, Finns, Danes, and Swiss had not been under the yoke of communism for about 90 years and had been promised all that time that if they just became democracies they would be welcomed into the international community... it has been almost 20 years and they are still waiting...


While discussing the gas situation with a girl from Crimea last Friday, I believe her sentiment sums it up: " A pochemu MI dolzhni IM deshovii gas davat?" this is coming from a holder of Ukrainian citizenship, you consider yourselves Russians first and foremost, not Ukrainian.


Wow... how Albanian of them... but that is OK Albanians get their own countries when they want them... thanks to the US/UK/Germany etc etc.

[non]

"So if Russia is to blame for everything how did they benefit. How did they control Stalin to do the things he did to the Ukraine? I would like to hear a clear explaination that doesn't involve commies are evil and all ruskies are commies."
Thought that was mostly policy engineered by Molotov. You're right, though. Soviet Union's crimes or policies ought not to be hung around Russia's neck.

[Doublethinker]

That does not answer why us though.
Do those Ukrainian nationalists hate Armenians? May be Kazakhs? Perhaps they hate the Chechens, or Tadjiks?

No, they hate us. Why us?

Probably, because in the first place Sovietism was brought (at least to Central Asia and the Baltics) mainly by the Russian soldiers.

And Russian men always amounted for the biggest amount of troops, simply because percent-wise, the USSR would have never survived had Russians not been there to enforce decisions. We,Russians, were the cerberus of the regime.

[Kilgor]

You are not very bright are you. You blame Russia for everything bad that happened in the Soviet Union yet the worst excesses the leadership of the Soviet Union were responsible for were under Stalin... a Georgian, and the whole idea for the Soviet Union was Lenin... who was, I believe Ukrainian. How can you blame Russia for the actions of Stalin or Lenin? .

And Hitler was Austrian, so that in no way lesses what "Germany" did.

Lenin was Russian FYI.

[Abu3ale]

Common guys this topic about NATO and Ukraine not "soviet crimes" or crimes was made by some people evryone know who r they...Russian Ukranians and Belorussian are brothers if u like or dont like...and USSR was UNION of 15 republics evryone had his chance and if u wnat so much to talk about this past go and talk about WWII where this huge union was fighting like one against the enemy.
Lets go back to the topic;)
"By the way Lenin was by name Russian but evryone knows that he was taken his money and money for revolution from the WEST!!!:)"

[Doublethinker]

What is there to say...

I believe, going West is the right direction for Ukraine. After years spent in-between, playing on the differences between Russia and the US, Ukraine needs to finally make a choice. And there's really no other choice for Ukraine, but going West, since Russia is really not even offering any alternative. Economically its still incredibly retarded, while politically speaking of any alternative union to NATO and EU in Europe at least is just laughable. Moreover, the more ex-USSR countries join the West, the bigger are the chances of the majority of ex-USSR to finally climb out out of the political deadend of Turkmenbashism/Putinism and all these tribal/kleptocratical petty semi-dictatorships established by first Secretaries of Soviet Republics and then independent 'Presidents' of respective countries.

And Perhaps Nato and EU could pressure Russia to a more pro-democratical path. Although that one is unlikely. Until the majority of Russians see the real changes for the best in Ukraine, our ex backyard, we will hardly wake up to reality.

So Let Ukraine become the showroom for what Russia can achieve as a democracy. That would be the biggest help.

[DRA]

DRA, you type too much.
West of the Dnieper is "hillbilly" land. Crimea is...Crimea. East of the Dnieper speak mostly Russian on the street, and of all the shiny new novelties, Ukrainians seek employment in Russia. Ergo, Ukraine should not be a nation.:roll:
Shut up.
Well, I speak out of personal experience/familiarity with the place and you speak....out your ass?

Btw, I have never said Ukraine should not be a nation what I said is that the gathering of the territories that is under the same flag now will neither last nor be successful. If you disagree - prove me wrong by presenting historical or modern day facts that would support you claim/opinion as I did.
I, personally, welcome and want Ukranian "government" to join NATO - it will speed up the resolve East/West/Crimea issue.

[Sergei]

And the Russia didnt use Ukrainians in its war in Afganistan? And if I remeber correctly it was mother Russia who removed the Tartars from the Ukraine and is now very happy to see them moving back! So all the things you say NATO could do to you Russia has already done over and over and over and over.

Is that what they tell in the "West", Trace? Russian genocide? Seriously?
Man, get out of that cave of yours and read good books on collectevization and famine in Soviet Union 32-33. You will find out that russians were dying just as often or not more often from famine than anybody else.

Ukraine was an inalienable part of Soviet Union and of course supplied its boys to Afganistan. But Russia use Ukrainians?
In that sense we can talk that Washington uses texans or people from the state of Oregon to fight wars in Iraq and Afganistan.

Not Russia removed the tatars but Soviet Union did, moreover the NKVD apparatus headed by georgian Beria and under directions of georgian Stalin aka Joseph Dzugashvili himself. A lot of prominent NKVD members were jewish and ukrainian.
Do I have to point to you this difference between Russia and Soviet Union every damn time or you will get it yourself?

[Afro-European]

To all guys that are posting on this topic,i beg you to calm down a lil a bit.HOLLIS is watchingp-).(I you understand what i mean).

[Afro-European]

Can you tell what 'd happen if Ukraine doesn't join Nato and the EU?
'd the world cease to exist or what?



What is there to say...

I believe, going West is the right direction for Ukraine. After years spent in-between, playing on the differences between Russia and the US, Ukraine needs to finally make a choice. And there's really no other choice for Ukraine, but going West, since Russia is really not even offering any alternative. Economically its still incredibly retarded, while politically speaking of any alternative union to NATO and EU in Europe at least is just laughable. Moreover, the more ex-USSR countries join the West, the bigger are the chances of the majority of ex-USSR to finally climb out out of the political deadend of Turkmenbashism/Putinism and all these tribal/kleptocratical petty semi-dictatorships established by first Secretaries of Soviet Republics and then independent 'Presidents' of respective countries.

And Perhaps Nato and EU could pressure Russia to a more pro-democratical path. Although that one is unlikely. Until the majority of Russians see the real changes for the best in Ukraine, our ex backyard, we will hardly wake up to reality.

So Let Ukraine become the showroom for what Russia can achieve as a democracy. That would be the biggest help.

[Flamming_Python]

Trace mate, I tried to answer your questions, but if you are going to assume that Russia = USSR (an allegation which to some extent can be justified, but for the most part, not), then there is little point in carrying on our conversation; we will never be able to agree since we base our arguments of different premises.

[Doublethinker]

Can you tell what 'd happen if Ukraine doesn't join Nato and the EU?
'd the world cease to exist or what?


Did you actually take the time to read what I wrote?

Nothing terrible would happen if Ukraine doesn't join. But if Ukraine does, the results will be only positive.

[WoW]

wow russia is loosing the alliance game if this continues to happen :oops:

[AlexMartin2]

But if Ukraine does, the results will be only positive.

For example?

I can predict some results:
1) European prices for gas. Which means ruining economy, and one isn't in a good state right now.
2) Stopping all military joint projects with Russia. Also means a lot of trouble for Mil industrial complex.
3) NATO standarts for military. Which means more expences. Of course US can help, giving or selling some obsolete equipment, but Ukraine must upgrade their military by oneself.
4) Troubles with eastern part, where a lot of people are Russians. Also big trouble with Crimea, because of their heavy resistance agains NATO. Just remember some joint US-Ukr military exercise, which was cancelled because of many protesters. People has blocked roads, personnel of hotel (where US soldiers intended to live) simply stopped all thier work and so on.

[Doublethinker]

For example?

I can predict some results:
1) European prices for gas. Which means ruining economy, and one isn't in a good state right now.
2) Stopping all military joint projects with Russia. Also means a lot of trouble for Mil industrial complex.
3) NATO standarts for military. Which means more expences. Of course US can help, giving or selling some obsolete equipment, but Ukraine must upgrade their military by oneself.
4) Troubles with eastern part, where a lot of people are Russians. Also big trouble with Crimea, because of their heavy resistance agains NATO. Just remember some joint US-Ukr military exercise, which was cancelled because of many protesters. People has blocked roads, personnel of hotel (where US soldiers intended to live) simply stopped all thier work and so on.


1. Russian-Ukrainian conflict all over again. Russia is very dependent on Ukraine, since thats where the main oilpipe, pumping oil to Europe lies.

Moreover, the Baltic countries already pay European price for gas. Can't say their economy is ruined.

2. That is not a given, since cooperation with NATO is actually one of primary military positions of Russia, despite all the moaning we hear from Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

3. If Georgia with its piss poor rag tag army manages to run up to NATO standards, Ukraine will manage.

4. Actually, as soon as Ukraine joins NATO, most of this 'trouble' will be gone, since Russia is artificially inciting all of these problems all over the ex-USSR, be it Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine.

NATO strength behind Ukraine would force Russia to withdraw.

[AlexMartin2]

I see your position. Seems that you don't know and understand situation there at all.

I dont want to explain any details, so lets finish this conversation.

[GazB]

1. Russian-Ukrainian conflict all over again. Russia is very dependent on Ukraine, since thats where the main oilpipe, pumping oil to Europe lies.

There are new pipelines being planned all over the place... do you think Russia will not make alternative arrangements... in fact when the Ukraine joins NATO (I personally think it is probably inevidible) they will hardly suddenly become vulnerable to blackmail over oil. I doubt the rest of Europe will approve of the Ukraine pinching their gas or oil supplies just because you can't afford to buy it legitimately.


If Georgia with its piss poor rag tag army manages to run up to NATO standards, Ukraine will manage.


With very small forces it is rather easy to reequip and retrain.


Actually, as soon as Ukraine joins NATO, most of this 'trouble' will be gone, since Russia is artificially inciting all of these problems all over the ex-USSR, be it Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine.

And what feature of NATO do you think will make that stop?


Economically its still incredibly retarded, while politically speaking of any alternative union to NATO and EU in Europe at least is just laughable.

Well now you have me scared... here I am in little New Zealand... a tiny island in the south pacific with barely 4 million people and enough sheep to satisfy australia for a week and we can never join the EU or NATO... I guess we are screwed... :rolleyes: ... I mean large powerblocks of military alliances where states guarantee to come to the military aide of other states in the event of an attack has such a successful history... what would WWII have been like if Germany, France, Britain and Russia had just said... we are not interested in your petty squabbles just deal with it yourselves... Would that Austrian Hitler have been peeved that Germany was largely blamed for a war it did not start and was never really defeated on the battlefield? With no humiliating versaille (spelling) treaty and no huge loss of life in europe... no germany supporting lenins activities to get tsarist russia out of the war maybe communism might not have come into power in the Soviet Union... or its delay might have changed it, but without WWI then WWII would not have been needed... a lot of advances in technology would have been delayed... a lot of nazi rocket technology might be just being developed now... we might still have propeller driven aircraft... computers would be a nice idea but there is no way it could be made that small!!! How could it be possible to justify 50 million dead in WWII and however many million dead in WWI just to get to the level of technology we have now... I am OT... sorry... it is late here...


And Hitler was Austrian, so that in no way lesses what "Germany" did.

Well personally I lay the blame not on germany, but on Hitler and nazism, which unlike communism is race based. Wasn't it Latvian nazis that killed 96% of Latvian Jews? Do I blame Hitler and Germany for that? They certainly started it but the dead jewish latvians were killed by Latvians so they bare the blame too.

I don't blame Austrians... but an austrian for starting it. But there were germans and austrians and french and british and Americans and Russians and ukrainians and many others that carried out hitlers orders.
Hitler like Stalin must bear the brunt of the blame because it was the choices they made that created the problems or made them so much worse than they should have been.


NATO strength behind Ukraine would force Russia to withdraw.

And then Europe will step into its place and tell you what you have to do...

[Sergei]

1. Russian-Ukrainian conflict all over again. Russia is very dependent on Ukraine, since thats where the main oilpipe, pumping oil to Europe lies.

There is no conflict between Russia and Ukraine. You are very ill-informed. There is a conflict between USchenko and Tymoshenko mafias on who gets the most profit from getting on the Gazprom pipeline and taking the profit margins (up to 200 US dollars per 1000 cubic meters of gas under Kuchma) from there. Gazprom is cutting the profit margins for those two mafias with every passing year. Therefore, all this bitching and moaning.


Moreover, the Baltic countries already pay European price for gas. Can't say their economy is ruined.
The baltic countries pay nowhere near the european price for gas. They pay about 1/2 of that price. Check how much Germany and France pay for gas, and we take Great Britain, than the balts get the gas for free in comparison.




3. If Georgia with its piss poor rag tag army manages to run up to NATO standards, Ukraine will manage.
Georgia receives annually around 500 million US dollars specifically for build-up of their armed forces. Ukraine needs about 4-5 times more than that.


4. Actually, as soon as Ukraine joins NATO, most of this 'trouble' will be gone, since Russia is artificially inciting all of these problems all over the ex-USSR, be it Georgia, Moldova or Ukraine.
What trouble? Occupational forces in Kiev? Are you serious? This is not going to be tolerated by half of Ukraine's population and NATO is not looking for armed rebellion.



NATO strength behind Ukraine would force Russia to withdraw.
NATO can't summon 3000 bloody grunts to fight in Afghanistan. And you want them to enter Ukraine? Are fecking serious?
Than there is Crimea issue, there is the eastern Ukraine issue, and then there is the Ukrainian Constitution which clearly states that Ukraine should be a neutral state. Actually the Ukraine came to be as a state in its present borders based on negotiations between USA and Russia which guaranteed its teritorial integrity if Ukraine were to remain the neutral state. Seems like this is going to be violated soon.

[Bongopete]

It really seems like Russians are finding more to get up in arms about than the West. Almost like Russia is just spoiling for arguments and troubles.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Russians should join too.

[Bongopete]

Russians should join too.


Join NATO? Yes, I agree with that. I am tired of all the animosity between the 'West' and Russia. Enough already. There are too many other problems out there.

[AlexMartin2]

Join for what? Return to Afganistan? Or fight in Iraq? NATO is just an appendage to US now, and I dont want to my country to join such organisation. Anyway, current level of co-operation is good enough.

As for animosity, west (especially USA) must learn how to respect Russian interests, there was a period of 9 years, when they didnt give a damn about it.
It useless to say "Russia must respect others", because we tired to do so and give only sht in return.

[Bongopete]

Join for what? Return to Afganistan? Or fight in Iraq? NATO is just an appendage to US now, and I dont want to my country to join such organisation. Anyway, current level of co-operation is good enough.

As for animosity, west (especially USA) must learn how to respect Russian interests, there was a period of 9 years, when they didnt give a damn about it.
It useless to say "Russia must respect others", because we tired to do so and give only sht in return.

NATO an appendage to the US? Not a very good appendage if so. Who said that Russia must respect others? Though you say the west must respect Russian interests...ok, what are they? and what is not being respected? For 9 years the west didnt give a damn about Russia? Yet they invested money in same?
Russia needs to stop blaming others or using others as a scapegoat for its problems..the more it does, the more it encourages 'youth groups' by demonizing...the more it sounds like 1930's Germany and the Nazis.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Join for what? Return to Afganistan? Or fight in Iraq? NATO is just an appendage to US now, and I dont want to my country to join such organisation. Anyway, current level of co-operation is good enough.

As for animosity, west (especially USA) must learn how to respect Russian interests, there was a period of 9 years, when they didnt give a damn about it.
It useless to say "Russia must respect others", because we tired to do so and give only sht in return.

Of course it is impossible. Even if Russians wanted to join nobody would ever let them. Thus I alluded to an anti-Russian nature of this alliance.

[Bongopete]

Of course it is impossible. Even if Russians wanted to join nobody would ever let them. Thus I alluded to an anti-Russian nature of this alliance.


Of course NATO when it was set up was established with Russia in mind as its enemy. Today it still seems that Russia sees the west as its enemy and perhaps reinforces that mindset in the west as well. Perhaps both 'sides' are guilty?

[AlexMartin2]

NATO an appendage to the US? Not a very good appendage if so. Who said that Russia must respect others? Though you say the west must respect Russian interests...ok, what are they? and what is not being respected? For 9 years the west didnt give a damn about Russia? Yet they invested money in same?


As for 9 years I mean 1991-2000.



Russia needs to stop blaming others or using others as a scapegoat for its problems..the more it does, the more it encourages 'youth groups' by demonizing...the more it sounds like 1930's Germany and the Nazis.

Unfortunately, US military bases, AMB shield in Europe is DIRECT threat to Russia.
And If you are not stupid, you understand, that any rhetoric from any side do not change that fact.When US will decide to stop such moves, well, than we can resume normal dialog.
I say again, Russia is tired to believe in good intentions from the west. Reality are different.

What do you think we must do? Please, share your thoughs.

[Bongopete]

As for 9 years I mean 1991-2000.



Unfortunately, US military bases, AMB shield in Europe is DIRECT threat to Russia.
And If you are not stupid, you understand, that any rhetoric from any side do not change that fact.When US will decide to stop such moves, well, than we can resume normal dialog.
I say again, Russia is tired to believe in good intentions from the west. Reality are different.

What do you think we must do? Please, share your thoughs.

Why do you assume that military bases and abm shield in Europe is directed at you? I call that Russian paranoia. Why does Russia feel a need to organize youth groups that use as a rallying point the hatred of the US? It seems to me that Russia isnt happy unless it has another country to blame things on. Russia doesnt want friends and its current sabre rattling perhaps shows to the west that it never really wanted to be 'friends' unless those 'friends' we in its orbit.

[AlexMartin2]

Why do you assume that military bases and abm shield in Europe is directed at you? I call that Russian paranoia.


You may call it anyway you want, but it doesnt change fact that these installations in a very serious potential threat to Russian security. You must understand, that your opinion, also as mine doesn't matter. Opinion of Russian chief of staff is matter.



Why does Russia feel a need to organize youth groups that use as a rallying point the hatred of the US? It seems to me that Russia isnt happy unless it has another country to blame things on. Russia doesnt want friends and its current sabre rattling perhaps shows to the west that it never really wanted to be 'friends' unless those 'friends' we in its orbit.

Probably you watch too much TV. "Nashi" movement was disbanded some time ago. And their actions were very unpopular among Russian people.

[Bongopete]

[quote=AlexMartin;3118108]You may call it anyway you want, but it doesnt change fact that these installations in a very serious potential threat to Russian security. You must understand, that your opinion, also as mine doesn't matter. Opinion of Russian chief of staff is matter. quote]


This might be true IF these installations are indeed against Russian ICBMs.
IF. On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the few missiles that are intended would be able to stop the majority of the other Russian ICBMs or the SLBMs. Just like I dont think that the abm system around Moscow causes any sleepless nights here.

[AlexMartin2]

Damn, this AMB issue was disscussed too much. Do you want to go for another 234th step? I dont :)

I personally doubt that these 10 interceptors can change anything too. But it may change very fast. 10 can grow to 100. Their range may impove. Their warhead may change to more dangerous.
It is work of military planners to foresee future changes. And take approrpiate measures to prevent future threats. So pressure on US is one of that measures. It is not blaming, not whining, not paranoia.

[jennery587]

What is there to say...

I believe, going West is the right direction for Ukraine. After years spent in-between, playing on the differences between Russia and the US, Ukraine needs to finally make a choice. And there's really no other choice for Ukraine, but going West, since Russia is really not even offering any alternative. Economically its still incredibly retarded, while politically speaking of any alternative union to NATO and EU in Europe at least is just laughable. Moreover, the more ex-USSR countries join the West, the bigger are the chances of the majority of ex-USSR to finally climb out out of the political deadend of Turkmenbashism/Putinism and all these tribal/kleptocratical petty semi-dictatorships established by first Secretaries of Soviet Republics and then independent 'Presidents' of respective countries.

And Perhaps Nato and EU could pressure Russia to a more pro-democratical path. Although that one is unlikely. Until the majority of Russians see the real changes for the best in Ukraine, our ex backyard, we will hardly wake up to reality.

So Let Ukraine become the showroom for what Russia can achieve as a democracy. That would be the biggest help.


ukraine is not for US neither for RUSSIA i believe is time to move on ukraine need leadership not puppet ukraine need indepent from russia and usa is to move on stop defend onside

[jennery587]

[quote=is to move on stop defend onside[/quote]

is time to move on and stop defend oneside

[Doublethinker]

ukraine is not for US neither for RUSSIA

I don't care about Ukraine in itself. To me it is only interesting as an example of how the situation may play out in Russia.

[Bongopete]

Yes, Ukraine is its own self, it can do what it wants. If that means join NATO that should be cool, if it wants to become an Islamic nation that is...er....well that wouldnt be cool.

[Doublethinker]

There is no conflict between Russia and Ukraine. You are very ill-informed. There is a conflict between USchenko and Tymoshenko mafias on who gets the most profit from getting on the Gazprom pipeline and taking the profit margins (up to 200 US dollars per 1000 cubic meters of gas under Kuchma) from there. Gazprom is cutting the profit margins for those two mafias with every passing year. Therefore, all this bitching and moaning.


It is good to have at least two mafias competing. Instead of one running the whole country. Not the best of a choice, but much more preferrable to Russian 'stability'.



The baltic countries pay nowhere near the european price for gas. They pay about 1/2 of that price. Check how much Germany and France pay for gas, and we take Great Britain, than the balts get the gas for free in comparison.


They pay absolutely the same money to RUSSIA as France or UK. The thing is, quite a lot of the final amount finds its way in local budgets of transit countries, who have no problem taxing the oil moving through their territory to death.



Georgia receives annually around 500 million US dollars specifically for build-up of their armed forces. Ukraine needs about 4-5 times more than that.


Not really something to be significant even for the US budget. Left alone the whole western economies taken together.

Moreover, Georgia receives most of the amount as a long-term loan, so US is losing nothing, only winning.



What trouble? Occupational forces in Kiev? Are you serious? This is not going to be tolerated by half of Ukraine's population and NATO is not looking for armed rebellion.


There would be no need for any occupation force. Just embracing Ukraine economically will convince even the biggest anti-western hardliners.

Something the West is currently doing.

Talk to you again in 5 years' time, when you change your opinion to an opposite one. Again. ;)




Than there is Crimea issue, there is the eastern Ukraine issue, and then there is the Ukrainian Constitution which clearly states that Ukraine should be a neutral state. Actually the Ukraine came to be as a state in its present borders based on negotiations between USA and Russia which guaranteed its teritorial integrity if Ukraine were to remain the neutral state. Seems like this is going to be violated soon.

There's no Crimea issue or Eastern Ukraine, its an issue only for Luzhkov. Russia has no official territorial demands towards Ukraine.

[Bongopete]

'Official' territorial demands? Hey, are there $5000.00 an hour hookers in the Ukraine? Just occured to me.

[Doublethinker]

'Official' territorial demands? Hey, are there $5000.00 an hour hookers in the Ukraine? Just occured to me.

What is that you don't understand?

For example,Argentina has official territorial demand for UK. Russia has no demands with regards to Ukraine.

And what's this about hookers? Some sort of strange joke?

[Bongopete]

What is that you don't understand?

For example,Argentina has official territorial demand for UK. Russia has no demands with regards to Ukraine.

And what's this about hookers? Some sort of strange joke?


Thats why I said 'official'.

No, it was a real question.

[delio]

Russia to ask itself why just about every European nation that was once part of the Warsaw Pact or the Soviet Union have decided to march towards alliances with the West. First was the hoard immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and then a trickle that still continues - Ukraine and Georgia are only the last of many.

[TeslaN]

NATO has already signed its own death warrant and I pity these new banana states such as Georgia that may find themselves a part of it when the whole ship goes down.

[Suicaine]

NATO only causes problems, with the end of the cold war went the operational requirement for NATO

but if NATO will continue to exist and the people of Ukraine want to be part of NATO why should people be against it? It's been over 15 years since the cold war ended.

- Alex.

[Igor01]

For whatever it's worth here are some poll results from Ukraine (conducted by Ukraine's Statistical Service) :

For joining NATO - 11%
Against - 35%
There's no data quoted as for the remaining 54%, they probably just showed the "emphatic yes" and "emphatic no" segments of the population, the rest is either undetermined or varying degree of "yes" or "no". So definetely not a complete study but give you an idea that overall a lot more people are against NATO membership than for it.

Another interesting set of data from a different study:
43.3% Ukrainians disapprove Yuschenko's request to join the action plan for NATO membership, 42% disapprove of Timoshenko for co-signing the request. According to the same poll, 21.6% positively viewed Ukraine joining the alliance while 56% opposed it.

Soure (http://lenta.ru/news/2008/03/17/nato/)(in Russian)

[FelixA9]

Of course it is impossible. Even if Russians wanted to join nobody would ever let them. Thus I alluded to an anti-Russian nature of this alliance.


Well there is the little problem of Russia supplying China with weapons. No way Russia would play ball with NATO as would be required for them to join.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Well there is the little problem of Russia supplying China with weapons. No way Russia would play ball with NATO as would be required for them to join.

Do you have exact figures what when and how much Russians sold to Chinese?

[FelixA9]

Do you have exact figures what when and how much Russians sold to Chinese?


Are you not aware that China has a few hundred Su-27s, S-300s, several Sovremenney class destroyers, a dozen or so Kilos, several types of Russian antiship missiles and so on?

[GodlessAmerica!]

Are you not aware that China has a few hundred Su-27s, S-300s, several Sovremenney class destroyers, a dozen or so Kilos, several types of Russian antiship missiles and so on?

Well foreign orders helped Russian military industry to survive.

[Igor01]

Are you not aware that China has a few hundred Su-27s, S-300s, several Sovremenney class destroyers, a dozen or so Kilos, several types of Russian antiship missiles and so on?

Didn't the flow of Chinese orders just about dry up in the recent years? I seem to recall a thread on this not too long ago.

[FelixA9]

Well foreign orders helped Russian military industry to survive.


Not disagreeing or debating the why. Simply pointing out that there's more to the problem of Russia joining NATO than them simply not wanting to. They couldn't even if they did want to.

[Flamming_Python]

Russia to ask itself why just about every European nation that was once part of the Warsaw Pact or the Soviet Union have decided to march towards alliances with the West. First was the hoard immediately after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and then a trickle that still continues - Ukraine and Georgia are only the last of many.

Because the Soviet economy completely collapsed, and along with it the Ideology, the influence, society, etc...

What else was there to march towards to during the 90's?

[Lokos]

Are you not aware that China has a few hundred Su-27

Most are produced under license in China.


Simply pointing out that there's more to the problem of Russia joining NATO than them simply not wanting to. They couldn't even if they did want to.

You're right, but for the wrong reasons.

Lokos