Ruso-Scandinavian alliance

[Rostov]

Anyone thinks that this alliance is possible?

[Erki]

Not at the moment. But if it was to happen in the future it wouldn't be the first time.

[daily666]

Anyone thinks that this alliance is possible?

And what made you to take this assumption?

[Rostov]

And what made you to take this assumption?

similarity of ideologies. socialism, eventual communism. scandinavians support marxism as did the soviets and russians.

[TopolA]

Soviets were not Russian, and regular Russians for the overwhelmingly large part despise Communism...


...Orthodox Russia has gotten back to its roots, and is gaining more power and influence every year...



On the alliance part...why not???

[Wildgoose]

Eventual communism, in Scandinavia??? Scandinavians supporting Marxism? Maybe this is a different Scandinavia than what I visited. Please explain further.

[Rostov]

Eventual communism, in Scandinavia??? Scandinavians supporting Marxism? Maybe this is a different Scandinavia than what I visited. Please explain further.

Scandinavians are ultra socialist. socialism is based on marx's ideas. communism is what evolves out of socialism.

[h22chen]

Maybe they have a something in common? like against the EU/Nato? Didn't the Scandinavian countries resisted integrating into the European economy (or some call it empire) the last few decades? nah, never mind, Finland and Sweden is in the European Economic Community and the EU now. Looks like East Rome is losing at the moment.

[Kragh]

Scandinavians are ultra socialist. socialism is based on marx's ideas. communism is what evolves out of socialism.

You have NO idea of what you're talking about !
Communist party in Denmark has been disbanded for many years, we have had an right wing goverment for several years.
Yes we pay a lot in taxes and V.A.T and yes we have a working social securty system and yes nobody has to pay if they get seriously ill and need hospital treatment.
Is that what you call marxism ?
People not dying in the strreets because of poverty ? low crime rate (compared to U.S.A and eastern Europe) ?

Get a life boy and do some research before you speak :bash:

I will not waste more time on a nut like you

[delio]

Maybe they have a something in common? like against the EU/Nato? Didn't the Scandinavian countries resisted integrating into the European economy (or some call it empire) the last few decades? nah, never mind, Finland and Sweden is in the European Economic Community and the EU now. Looks like East Rome is losing at the moment.

Not only that. Denmark is also a member of the EU, an both Denmark and Norway were two of the original NATO founding members. So you got all of Scandinavian countries either being founding members of NATO or members of the European Union, and then you actually have half being members of both.


...and Sweden has actually been a NATO member in pretty much everything but name. Don't believe me? Consult the Russian/Soviet archives, lol.

Norway is not an official EU member 'cuz it got lots of fish oil. But in reality, Norway pretty much is an EU member in all but name.

[Basillicus]

Alliance against who exactly and why? There's a centuries old if not ancient distrust towards Russians so I don't see that happening. Basically Scandinavia/Nordic countries just don't have much in common with the Russians.

And what comes to socialism and communism they are the same thing only in wet dreams of right wing Yanks. I know you love to polarize everything (liberalism/conservatism, communism/capitalism, atheism/fundamentalism, "you are with us or against us" etc.) but that's not how the world really works.

[Jaeger07]

Not gonna work. Marxist Scandinavia? Give me a break!

[naymeria]

Maybe they have a something in common? like against the EU/Nato?
Russia isn't against the EU, and Finland i would find it strange.
There's in progress since 2000 a slow, but constantly increasing, process of russia's integration in europe. The aim is not for it to become part of the EU, which putin doesn't want, but to instore sufficient economic, infrastructural, cultural and political bonds to be able to give stability and live in peace together. And Putin supports a politically strong EU because it's a guarantee of his own stability and of the world's. The main two bridges in this process are germany and italy. Western companies and finance want it and there's a strong political will to have it.

Russia is europe. We have history in common, culture in common, christiadom in common. And we also have certain severe problems in common which can't be solved without collaboration by both sides. It'll take time and it won't be exactly easy. There's a century of antagonizing and, for some countries, not pleasant history to break thru. But there's no reason to believe hat it *has* to fail beforehand.

Soviet comunism is dead. Full stop. The florishing and freedom of the russian orthodox church is the biggest proof of it. Russia needs time for its internal stability and democracy and in the meantime eu is pressing on putin for it. The EU does not want a new cold war. And it's time to move on. For everyone.


Didn't the Scandinavian countries resisted integrating into the European economy (or some call it empire) the last few decades?

They resisted adopting the euro, which does not mean that economic integration isn't there. But to this only a scandinav can reply.

An empire rules on every aspect. Imposing, instead, common policies on issues and problems we all have in common, like illegal immigration, organized crime and security, terrorism and extremisms, energy, financial transparency and defense is different. Plus a european court to enforce the parliamentary decisions in case they aren't respected.

As any governing body, it can become an overuling empire if it falls in the wrong hands. But it is up to europeans to watch out that this doesn't occur. Europeans elect their reppresentatives, have direct contact, make petitions, can bring directly a case or abuses to the european court and it's up to them to have the conscious responsability of who they are electing. In turn national gov't will have to inform theier citizens of everything that happens at the parliamentary level. This is the treay of lisbon, i'm speaking of. Not what the EU has been until last year.

That in a hypothetical future, it *might* become an empire, I couldn't care less. Noone has a crystal sphere or is born with the gift of foresight and i categorically refuse to not move on, due to the fear of something which may never even occurr. If mankind throughout history would have reasoned like this he would never have stopped living in caves.

Should italy be left as it is, pestered with mafia and conflicts of interests, when it has its hands tied, or albania, or serbia because we're afraid of something which might not even occur? To solve these problems europe has to have its political weight, as it has economically at the intenatinal stage, and legal authority to do so. Because those problems will affect all europe.
You know, it's easy to say 'ah, a country doesn't work. it'll always be that way,' when its people are aksing help.

Europe has a history, the last century, of big dictatorships, spain, italy, germany, greece and russia, and our politicians, diplomats, intellectual class know the signs, the underlaying philosophical aspects, the history and causes of all forms of both fascism and soviet communism. We have centuries of governing forms and this is a guarantee that it will not become a traditional overwhelming empire on all aspects, unles it's wanted.

For me, a united europe with russia as a collaborative and peaceful neighbor is a urgent historic need and i'm all for it, all the more if president putin is pushing for it. Otherwise europe and with it, us europeans, will be torn apart.
Political changes need their time to occur, if they want to be done in peace. Peaceful and collaborative with russia and peaceful and collaborative with the usa, as equals and true allies, but the latter is not up to europeans anymore. It's up to the american electorate and an internal political will.

Btw, it's not a federation and countries maintain their individual sovregneity on so many aspects, including on one's own armed forces, with the right of caveats and contributing according to their own national capabilities, resources and needs, that noone would probably even notice the difference between after and before.

Nay

[Afro-European]

Alliance against who and for what? Sweden has ever been a Nato member but has already had close ties to it.Finland was closer(unofficially)to the ex-USSR during the cold war now it's closer to the EU and Nato and Russia somewhat.Maybe increasing some economical and commercial exchange but other than that...
i

Anyone thinks that this alliance is possible?

[khukuri]

thread fails to deliver

[Afro-European]

What should it have delivered?


thread fails to deliver

[Flamming_Python]

Norway has forged very close ties with Russia in the last few years. In fact a Norweigian company (Statoil) was selected as a partner for Gazprom (along with French Total) for development of the huge gas reserves (and I mean HUGE) of the Shtokman field. Also plenty of cross-border projects with Murmansk in particular, Norwegian PM visits Murmansk practically every month or 2. There is talk of a new city/port zone; Pomor, which dates back to the trading route Norway had with Russia until 1917, which pretty much drove the development of Northern Norway.

http://www.barentsobserver.com/

Big things happening between Norway and Russia. Sweden and Russia have their traditional relations, i.e. cordial, and Finland is somewhere in the middle, although I would expect that they would have much to gain from co-operating with St.Petersburg, Murmansk, Archangelsk, Petrozavodsk, etc...

[NavyTimes]

similarity of ideologies. socialism, eventual communism. scandinavians support marxism as did the soviets and russians.

That would be the exact same thing as saying that yankees support fascism.




On an other page: It is imperative for Norway to have as tight a relationship with Russia as possible, because we need to have strong regulations on the harvesting of resources in the arctic area. We do not however need a general military alliance, because our defence needs are very different, but hopefully we will see the level of military cooperation between the two neighbours increase. With that, I am speaking about officer exchange programs, joint excercises and agreements for operational cooperation in the shared area of interest.

[Flamming_Python]

That would be the exact same thing as saying that yankees support fascism.




On an other page: It is imperative for Norway to have as tight a relationship with Russia as possible, because we need to have strong regulations on the harvesting of resources in the arctic area. We do not however need a general military alliance, because our defence needs are very different, but hopefully we will see the level of military cooperation between the two neighbours increase. With that, I am speaking about officer exchange programs, joint excercises and agreements for operational cooperation in the shared area of interest.

Military needs are of course different, but economic interests converge in a number of areas. Both have access to Barents Sea and it's huge natural resources, both are major suppliers of natural gas, both have interest in developing trade routes across the arctic ocean and far north, etc...

[Somalimafia]

One of the most worthless and idiotic threads in recent memory.

The OP has clearly no idea what he/she/it is talking about.

[delio]

There those Marxist ideals Scandinavian countries cherish - stuff like democracy, individual rights, rule of law, etc - in which I doubt they see themselves compatible with Russia.

Military wise, as all four Scandanavian armed forces countries that if the had to name a country they fear would try to invade them in the next fifty years, which country would that be. I can almost guaranteed you three of four would definitely say Russia, but the answer would probably be unanimous..

also,: The Danish and to a good extent Norwegian armed forces, both NATO founders, have historically been as pro-American as it gets in Europe, with the exception of the UK of course.

[vanreis]

Hehe..the thread probably should have been opened as Slavian-Russian aliance. Now that one is going to have legs for a long time..

[CouchCommando]

We've fought countles wars to keep you russkies out, have no doubt, we'll keep doing so in the future. Just stay on your side of the border :cantbeli:


ps. Might be wise to lock this thread before the inevitable happens.

[Flamming_Python]

We've fought countles wars to keep you russkies out, have no doubt, we'll keep doing so in the future. Just stay on your side of the border :cantbeli:


ps. Might be wise to lock this thread before the inevitable happens.

It just happened... thanks to you:bash::bash::bash::bash:

[Ozzy[NO]]

We've fought countles wars to keep you russkies out, have no doubt, we'll keep doing so in the future. Just stay on your side of the border :cantbeli:

ps. Might be wise to lock this thread before the inevitable happens.

Do I need to remind you that they've also been our allies in several wars?



Military wise, as all four Scandanavian armed forces countries that if the had to name a country they fear would try to invade them in the next fifty years, which country would that be. I can almost guaranteed you three of four would definitely say Russia, but the answer would probably be unanimous..


Yepp, that's probably true, at least speaking from a Norwegian point of view. I wouldn't say we fear the Russians would invade, but it's more or less the only country available as an option.

A tighter relationship between Russia and the Scandinavian countries will happen and is happening. But, I think a new alliance is a bit far-fetched unless we get a new major common enemy.

[CouchCommando]

It just happened... thanks to you:bash::bash::bash::bash:
Trust me, it happened way earlier.

[Herrmannek]

NOKIA is pure communism everyone knows that...

[Flamming_Python]

Trust me, it happened way earlier.

So where are you from that you need to repulse "evil russkies"?

With Finland I can understand.

Sweden; we haven't fought a war with for over 150 years, and at no time did Russian forces enter Sweden proper IMHO.

Norway, we liberated their northern provinces during WW2 when they were held by the Germans, and gave that land back to the Norwegian government when it was re-established.

[Nordmannen]

I don't see this happening. There's been an anti-russian sentiment in Scandinavia for centuries.


Norway, we liberated their northern provinces during WW2 when they were held by the Germans, and gave that land back to the Norwegian government when it was re-established.
Around here we learn that the russians turned back because the norwegian army managed to intercept them.

[Bongopete]

Maybe its time to...I dont know...stop making 'sides'. If you want to look at where any potential 'sides' should be drawn up, its when looking toward Islam and Islam wanting to impose its laws in western (including Russia) states that are organized on Christian beliefs or history.

[Somalimafia]

So where are you from that you need to repulse "evil russkies"?

With Finland I can understand.

Sweden; we haven't fought a war with for over 150 years, and at no time did Russian forces enter Sweden proper IMHO.

Norway, we liberated their northern provinces during WW2 when they were held by the Germans, and gave that land back to the Norwegian government when it was re-established.

Except the time they thought they were in Poland, but somehow accidentally hit the rocks inside a top secret weapons test site. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_137

http://compunews.com/s139/sp2.htm

There is a also a thread about this. There were other indicents like this as well.

[Erki]

Sweden; we haven't fought a war with for over 150 years, and at no time did Russian forces enter Sweden proper IMHO.

The thing with Sweden is that eventhough we've formally had peace with Russia or it's successor states for the last 199 years we for example spent the whole 20th century preparing for the great war for national survival which would start when the SU once more decided to take bites out of Fennoscandia.

Swedes in general don't trust the Russian state one bit. The 90s got people confused but now with Putins hardline foreign policy and agressive posture towards the Baltics lots of people are saying: "Ha, look, I told you this would happen!".

Before 1809 Finland was a part of Sweden proper and during our last war the russian imperial army occupied almost half of modern day Sweden.

[Flamming_Python]

The thing with Sweden is that eventhough we've formally had peace with Russia or it's successor states for the last 199 years we for example spent the whole 20th century preparing for the great war for national survival which would start when the SU once more decided to take bites out of Fennoscandia.

Swedes in general don't trust the Russian state one bit. The 90s got people confused but now with Putins hardline foreign policy and agressive posture towards the Baltics lots of people are saying: "Ha, look, I told you this would happen!".

I don't know. I severely doubt that you will encounter one bit of anti-scandinavian sentiment in Moscow, St.Petersburg, etc... In St. Petersburg in fact there are a great number of Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc... working, doing business, going for holiday, weekend trips for booze, etc...

But that's probably because Russia would hardly see those countries as a threat, as opposed to the other way 'round.

[Flamming_Python]

Around here we learn that the russians turned back because the norwegian army managed to intercept them.

Well the USSR lost 20,000 men liberating the Finnmark province in late 1944. I was under the impression the rest of Norway was still under Nazi control during this time. The primary objective was to secure Murmansk and Arctic shipping, and secure Finland from German troops, so the advance didn't progress beyond Finnmark.

AFAIK the reason it was given back, was because of the dividing of spheres of influence post-WW2. It was agreed that Norway should be with the West. Although in practise, it was already agreed between Norway and the USSR in mid-1944, that USSR-occupied territories would be returned to Norway.

[Erki]

I don't know. I severely doubt that you will encounter one bit of anti-scandinavian sentiment in Moscow, St.Petersburg, etc... In St. Petersburg in fact there are a great number of Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc... working, doing business, going for holiday, weekend trips for booze, etc...

But that's probably because Russia would hardly see those countries as a threat, as opposed to the other way 'round.

This phenomenon which i've described couldn't be labeled as a pure anti-russian sentiment.
It's more a kind of suspiciousness which is directed exclusively towards russian foreign policy, the intelligence services and russian politicians.

Individual russians would probably never come across or be affected by it.

[delio]

ha ha! ..as we contemplate Scandinavian country alliance with Russia, I come to find out, Finland, the Scandanavian country that has had the most clover relation with the Soviet Union and Russia, has apparently decided to join NATO's most recently formed door cracking force group:




Finland decides to join NATO rapid reaction force (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/07/content_7741117.htm)

http://www.yle.fi/news/left/id84696_1.jpg

HELSINKI, March 7 (Xinhua) -- The Finnish government on Friday decided to participate in the activities supplementing the NATO Response Force, the Foreign Ministry said in a press release. The decision was made by Finnish President Tarja Halonen and the cabinet committee on foreign and security policy on Friday.
Finnish Ambassador to NATO Aapo Polho has been authorized to deliver the organization a letter confirming Finland's willingness to take part in the activities of the NATO Response Force, said the release.
Finland is not a NATO member, but a member of NATO's partnership for peace scheme.
The 25,000-strong NATO Response Force is a technologically advanced crack force that can be quickly deployed wherever in need in five days
So now every Scandinavian country is either official NATO member since the founding of NATO, or NATO country in all but name.

..ditto the EU.

[Nordmannen]

I come to find out, Finland, the Scandanavian country that has had the most clover relation with the Soviet Union and Russia, has apparently decided to join NATO's most recently formed door cracking force group:

Finland is not Scandinavian...

[delio]

Finland is not Scandinavian...

It is for the subject of this thread. Iceland (the green land in the extreme northern pacific) is often considered part of Scandinavia too, but not really for the subject of this thread. In fact, as far as the topic of this thread is concerned Finland is more of a Scandanavian country than Denmark.


Scandinavia: A region of northern Europe consisting of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands are often included in the region.
...

2. Scandinavia - a group of culturally related countries in northern Europe; Finland and Iceland are sometimes considered Scandinavian



The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.

[ozumn]

The thing with Sweden is that eventhough we've formally had peace with Russia or it's successor states for the last 199 years we for example spent the whole 20th century preparing for the great war for national survival which would start when the SU once more decided to take bites out of Fennoscandia.

Swedes in general don't trust the Russian state one bit. The 90s got people confused but now with Putins hardline foreign policy and agressive posture towards the Baltics lots of people are saying: "Ha, look, I told you this would happen!".

Before 1809 Finland was a part of Sweden proper and during our last war the russian imperial army occupied almost half of modern day Sweden.

half of modern Sweden?

[NavyTimes]

I don't see this happening. There's been an anti-russian sentiment in Scandinavia for centuries.


Around here we learn that the russians turned back because the norwegian army managed to intercept them.


Attehæ?

This is obviously bull****. Norway only had a symbolic military contigent in the part of norway that the red army liberated. And that contigent didnt intercept anyone, they were put there long after liberation, and were mostly useless because they were so few.

[Rostov]

You have NO idea of what you're talking about !
Communist party in Denmark has been disbanded for many years, we have had an right wing goverment for several years.
Yes we pay a lot in taxes and V.A.T and yes we have a working social securty system and yes nobody has to pay if they get seriously ill and need hospital treatment.
Is that what you call marxism ?
People not dying in the strreets because of poverty ? low crime rate (compared to U.S.A and eastern Europe) ?

Get a life boy and do some research before you speak :bash:

I will not waste more time on a nut like you

Yea that's what socialism is. is Denmark not socialist?

[NavyTimes]

While socialism is an important principle in social democracy, that does not mean that social democracy is communism. Communist parties are completely marginalized here, we are talking below 2% of voters.

Your post reflects your age.

[Rostov]

Norway has forged very close ties with Russia in the last few years. In fact a Norweigian company (Statoil) was selected as a partner for Gazprom (along with French Total) for development of the huge gas reserves (and I mean HUGE) of the Shtokman field. Also plenty of cross-border projects with Murmansk in particular, Norwegian PM visits Murmansk practically every month or 2. There is talk of a new city/port zone; Pomor, which dates back to the trading route Norway had with Russia until 1917, which pretty much drove the development of Northern Norway.

http://www.barentsobserver.com/

Big things happening between Norway and Russia. Sweden and Russia have their traditional relations, i.e. cordial, and Finland is somewhere in the middle, although I would expect that they would have much to gain from co-operating with St.Petersburg, Murmansk, Archangelsk, Petrozavodsk, etc...

interesting.

[Rostov]

Before 1809 Finland was a part of Sweden proper and during our last war the russian imperial army occupied almost half of modern day Sweden.

Russia partitioned Sweden for trying to expand into it's territory. Russia could've kept Finland as part of its state, but decided to not be greedy and punish Sweden at the same time, thus creating Finland as an independent state.

[Rostov]

While socialism is an important principle in social democracy, that does not mean that social democracy is communism. Communist parties are completely marginalized here, we are talking below 2% of voters.

Your post reflects your age.

what is my age?
why are you mixing socialism with communism?

[Rostov]

half of modern Sweden?

yes. its Finland.

[h22chen]

yes. its Finland.
So, the Finns should be more afraid of an invasion from the Swedes to "liberate"/"retake" southern Sweden? p-)

[h22chen]

What should it have delivered?


Is it due to the lack of references to Gog and Magog? :oops:

[naymeria]

I have fully understood and will say no word, not to one. And i agree this thread should be totally scratched as all the others. The internet is land where already too many conspiracies breed. We don't want another one and totally unrealiable and defamating either. Not only generals have their reputation to safeguard.

I need an advice from a friend. I think my computer is bugged. I was thinking to reformat it. Probably best.

Nay

[Erki]

half of modern Sweden?

Yes, at one point during the Finnish war in 1809 the russians were operating inside the province of Ångermanland. Had they taken this province and Jämtland aswell they would have controlled half of what today makes up Sweden.

[kosse]

Russia partitioned Sweden for trying to expand into it's territory. Russia could've kept Finland as part of its state, but decided to not be greedy and punish Sweden at the same time, thus creating Finland as an independent state.

Your version of history is interesting.

[Erki]

It is for the subject of this thread. Iceland (the green land in the extreme northern pacific) is often considered part of Scandinavia too, but not really for the subject of this thread. In fact, as far as the topic of this thread is concerned Finland is more of a Scandanavian country than Denmark.


Scandinavia: A region of northern Europe consisting of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands are often included in the region.
...

2. Scandinavia - a group of culturally related countries in northern Europe; Finland and Iceland are sometimes considered Scandinavian



The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.

The thing is just that most people outside of Scandinavia can't tell the difference between Scandinavia (Denmark, Sweden and Norway) and the Nordic Countries (Norway, Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Iceland).

To confuse things further there is also the Nordic Council formed by the nordic countries and the autonomous regions of the Faeroe Islands, Åland Islands and Greenland.

[Jaeger07]

My 2c: A military Russo-Scandinavian alliance will not happen unless a major new world order appears. An ecconomic alliance (or more cooperation) is on the other hand happening and will increase in the future.

Concerning Soviet forces in norway during WW2:

The Norwegian people is very thankfull to the red army for liberating the northern parts of norway, and then pulling back. I did most of my service on the russian border and know for a fact that the people up there love the russians. That said, the only viable "threat" from any neighbouring country to Norway was and is - Russia.

---

@ Nordmannens post:


Around here we learn that the russians turned back because the norwegian army managed to intercept them.

Where the heck did you go to school?

---

Concerning the term Scandinavia:

Its no doubt that Scandinavia consist of only Norway Sweden and Denmark.

The Nordic countries however are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland (sometimes included: Faroe-islands, Aaland, Greenland and the Shetland isles).

[The Dane]

Concerning the term Scandinavia:

Its no doubt that Scandinavia consist of only Norway Sweden and Denmark.

The Nordic countries however are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland (sometimes included: Faroe-islands, Aaland, Greenland and the Shetland isles).


That's excactly right.

Scadinavia+Russia is simply a stupid idea!!

[Freedom-Fries]

Not gonna work. Marxist Scandinavia? Give me a break!


this thread is full of comedy

[daily666]

Where is Thor when you need him. :cantbeli:

[Flamming_Python]

My 2c: A military Russo-Scandinavian alliance will not happen unless a major new world order appears. An ecconomic alliance (or more cooperation) is on the other hand happening and will increase in the future.

Concerning Soviet forces in norway during WW2:

The Norwegian people is very thankfull to the red army for liberating the northern parts of norway, and then pulling back. I did most of my service on the russian border and know for a fact that the people up there love the russians. That said, the only viable "threat" from any neighbouring country to Norway was and is - Russia.

---

@ Nordmannens post:



Where the heck did you go to school?

---

Concerning the term Scandinavia:

Its no doubt that Scandinavia consist of only Norway Sweden and Denmark.

The Nordic countries however are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland (sometimes included: Faroe-islands, Aaland, Greenland and the Shetland isles).

Cool man, thanks for getting everything cleared up p-)


Where is Thor when you need him. :cantbeli:

:D

[delio]

---

Concerning the term Scandinavia:

Its no doubt that Scandinavia consist of only Norway Sweden and Denmark.

The Nordic countries however are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Iceland (sometimes included: Faroe-islands, Aaland, Greenland and the Shetland isles).

o, la, la. I gave you guys the exact dictionary definition, yet you keep insistingly Scandinavia never includes anything outside the countries of Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

Once again:


Scandinavia: A region of northern Europe consisting of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands are often included in the region.
...

2. Scandinavia - a group of culturally related countries in northern Europe; Finland and Iceland are sometimes considered Scandinavian



The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.

[Erki]

Well, your source is incorrect. Two real, live scandinavians have already told you so.

[delio]

Well, your source is incorrect. Two real, live scandinavians have already told you so.

No is not. In their particular mother language the word "Scandinavia" may mean something else than it means in standard American English and standard British/English English, but that would make them wrong and not me.

Standard American English:

A definition of the word "Scandinavia from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, ..

Denmark, Norway, Sweden —sometimes also considered to include Iceland, the Faeroe Islands, & Finland

Standard British/English English:

Show phonetics (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CLD2&key=HW*16869&ph=on)
noun
a region including the countries of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and sometimes Finland and Iceland

(from Cambridge Learner's Dictionary (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/cld/))

[Erki]

Actually the sources are not entirely wrong. Your way of interpreting them is.

"Sometimes also", together with "and sometimes" being key phrases.

The strict and well defined meaning is that Scandinavia consists of Sweden, Norway and Denmark. If one wishes to discuss this region with Finland or Iceland included without appearing to be an ignorant jackass who bunches up peoples and countries by random, one should use the term "the Nordic Countries".

[The Dane]

Wikipedias page on the matter is not bad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

[delio]

Actually the sources are not entirely wrong.



My sources are entirely correct. They are three of the most authoritative dictionaries of the English language after all.

Which makes your previous comment, i.e. "Well, your source is incorrect. Two real, live scandinavians have already told you so," entirely wrong.




Your way of interpreting them is.

"Sometimes also", together with "and sometimes" being key phrases.

.It also makes those too guys you site entirely wrong too, in saying that,
"Finland is not Scandinavian, (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3111205&postcount=37)" and " Its no doubt that Scandinavia consist of only Norway Sweden and Denmark"


If you actually look at my first post in this thread, (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=3110238&postcount=10)you'll see referred to Finland as part of Scandinavia in direct response to someone else doing so. My interpretation of Scandinavia, which allows for Finland to be included, is entirely correct. Yours and that of the guys you site is entirely wrong.




The strict and well defined meaning is that Scandinavia consists of Sweden, Norway and Denmark.

In standard American English, the well defined meaning allows for Finland to be included.




If one wishes to discuss this region with Finland or Iceland included without appearing to be an ignorant jackass who bunches up peoples and countries by random, one should use the term "the Nordic Countries".

Not really. The one that would give the appearance of an ignorant jackass would perhaps be the guy that think as you do.

[domokun]

My 2 cents for definition circle jerking....

Denmark isn't actually part of Scandinavian peninsula but northern Finland is... go figure. Still as finn i prefer nordic over scandinavian as my definition.

[delio]

My 2 cents for definition circle jerking....

Denmark isn't actually part of Scandinavian peninsula but northern Finland is... go figure. Still as finn i prefer nordic over scandinavian as my definition.


I understand that. I tend not to include Finland as part of Scandinavia in generic conversations. However, given that this is a specific conversation about a Scandinavian alliance with Russia I think I'm OK to do so. In fact, given its close historic dealing with both Russia and the Soviet Union, I believe Finland actually classifies more in this circumstance than Denmark itself.

[Erki]

Not really. The one that would give the appearance of an ignorant jackass would perhaps be the guy that think as you do.

Whatever, I tried to broaden your horizon but if you wan't to keep living in your little box it's just fine by me.

[delio]

Whatever, I tried to broaden your horizon but if you wan't to keep living in your little box it's just fine by me.


My horizon is very broaden actually. I mean, I do allow for Finland to be considered part of Scandinavia after all, :laugh:.

It is your horizon that needs to be broadened. I tried doing so, bu like you said, keep living in your little box it doesn't bother me much. You little box in which when an authoritative dictionary contradicts what you believe the definition of a word is, you along and call that dictionary "incorrect."

[Pars]

Scandinavia: Sweden, Norway & Denmark.

Get over it.

[p2pPower]

How hard is it to some ppl to belive that Finalnd is not part of Scandinavian countrys. Sweden, Norway and Denmark is. Finland is part of nordic countrys! damn stupid!

[delio]

He he, you guys just don't deal with authoritative sources do you.

Once again,

The American Heritage dictionary, ..

Scandinavia: A region of northern Europe consisting of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. Finland, Iceland, and the Faeroe Islands are often included in the region.
...

2. Scandinavia - a group of culturally related countries in northern Europe; Finland and Iceland are sometimes considered Scandinavian



The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/). All rights reserved.


Merriam-Webster's dictionary of the English language, ..

Denmark, Norway, Sweden —sometimes also considered to include Iceland, the Faeroe Islands, & Finland


Cambridge dictionary of the English language, ..


Standard British/English English:

Show phonetics (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CLD2&key=HW*16869&ph=on)
noun
a region including the countries of Sweden, Denmark, Norway, and sometimes Finland and Iceland

(from Cambridge Learner's Dictionary (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/cld/))

[delio]

Ha ha! ..check this one out, verbatim..

Scandinavia Tourist Boards - Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden (http://www.goscandinavia.com/)

Welcome to the Official Website of the Scandinavian Tourist Boards in North America. Please feel free to browse the country websites of Denmark (http://www.visitdenmark.com/usa/en-us/Menu/turist/turistforside.htm), Finland (http://www.gofinland.org/web/us/index.nsf/%28pages%29/homepage?OpenDocument), Iceland (http://www.icelandtouristboard.com/), Norway (http://www.visitnorway.com/) and Sweden (http://www.visitsweden.com/).

__-

The damn OFFICIAL website (http://www.finland.org/doc/en/about/travellers/maps.asp?&lan=) of Finland's embassy in Washington:

"Finland’s largest cities are Helsinki, the capital with over 500,000 inhabitants, Espoo, Tampere, Scandinavia’s largest inland town, and Turku, the former capital. The total number of inhabitants is approximately 5.1 million."

Tampere is in south of Finland,


http://www.visitfinland.com/ima/main/maps/finland_in_scandinavia_main_en.jpg

[Pars]

Even though Finland might want to make it appear Scandinavian does not make it Scandinavian even though some dictorinary states that sometimes Finland is considered Scandinavian.

How about you deal with the fact that Finland is not Scandinavian because its people is not of Scandinavian origin? Jesus Christ get over it already.

[Jaeger07]

BAHAHA. You are hillarious. Just give it up will you :)


Listen: "America" is sometimes used to name the United States of America.

Still everyone knows that America more correctely is the name of the continent in witch the United States of America is situated (hence the name United States of Amercia).

It's kinda the same with Scandinavia. Just b/c some people (mostly who are not from Scandinavia) incorrectely include Finland does not make it so.



To sum it up:

No, Finland is not included in Scandinavia.

Yes, sometimes some people (incorrectly) include Finland in Scandinavia





...

[Moose]

Oh man what a bad analysis of the political situation and history, i am amused but not surprised, it can be difficult to understand the situation by merely looking at political terminologies.

Scandinavia and Finland being socialist does nothing to bring them closer to Russia. The Scandinavian way differs greatly from other socialist experiments. The countries have been getting closer the past years but there is still a large amount of widespread (fear, resentment, hate, distrust are too powerful words) caution towards Russia. Economic and social contacts are extremely good but Russia is still seen as a possible liability in an extreme turn of events.

Ps. Finland is not part of Scandinavia even if they historically might have wanted to be associated with it to distance themselves from Russia and get closer to the EU Ds.

[pacifist]

Where is Thor when you need him. :cantbeli:

Thorism could become the official religion of scandislavia.

[Flamming_Python]

Thorism could become the official religion of scandislavia.

Time to dust off the long-boats, I say :)

[Basillicus]

Time to dust off the long-boats, I say :)

I bet the earlier raids would look like boy scouts on a field trip compared with what could be done today! This baby can carry 3500 angry Normans without need to compromize any modern comforts, countles litres of booze, and truckloads of booty: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Silja_Europa_2005.jpg

[delio]

How about you deal with the fact that Finland is not Scandinavian because its people is not of Scandinavian origin? Jesus Christ get over it already.

How about you deal with the fact Finland can be considered a Scandinavian country because part of Finland is geographically within the Scandinavian peninsula, ..just as Russia can be considered a European country because part of mother Russia is geographically withing the European continent.

[GodlessAmerica!]

Given how many troubles Europe is going to face in near future (climate changes, natural resources shortage, overpopulation, muslim dominance), Russia is predestined to become new cradle for European Christian Civilisation.

Just imagine new Germano-Romano-Slavic community. New Megapolises along Lena, Yenisey, Irtish and Ob, on the Pacific coast. Trans-Siberian maglev, thermonuclear power plants, cosmodromes, space colonies...and so on:)

[Bongopete]

Given how many troubles Europe is going to face in near future (climate changes, natural resources shortage, overpopulation, muslim dominance), Russia is predestined to become new cradle of European Christian Civilisation.

Just imagine new Germano-Romano-Slavic community. New Megapolises along Lena, Yenisey, Yertish and Ob, on the Pacific coast. Trans-Siberian maglev, thermonuclear power plants, cosmodromes, space colonies...and so on:)


Yes...just imagine.

[delio]

just imagine.

.....haha!

[GodlessAmerica!]

Yes...just imagine.


.....haha!

Dont you like the idea, guys? :)

All what Russia and Europe have to do is overcome their stupid pride and distrust and NEW HYPERPOWER WILL RISE!!!!!

[Cyclonite]

Even though Finland might want to make it appear Scandinavian does not make it Scandinavian even though some dictorinary states that sometimes Finland is considered Scandinavian.

How about you deal with the fact that Finland is not Scandinavian because its people is not of Scandinavian origin? Jesus Christ get over it already. Why would any Finn want to consider himself to be of the same origin as the Swedish? :S Just wondering..

Finland is a Nordic country, which is also geographically part of Scandinavia in the North. Scandinavia is a geographic term anyway. Most foreigners especially however, tend to think that Finland as a whole is part of Scandinavia.

[The Dane]

Dont you like the idea, guys? :)

All what Russia and Europe have to do is overcome their stupid pride and distrust and NEW HYPERPOWER WILL RISE!!!!!

And we all know who should be Emperor, right...:roll:


http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj21/HolDanAfg/russianelectionswc7.gif

[GodlessAmerica!]

And we all know who should be Emperor, right...:roll:


http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj21/HolDanAfg/russianelectionswc7.gif

Freedom or death?

[The Dane]

Satire..:)

Ditch EU and NATO and let's make a Scadinavian-Dutch-British union/alliance...:-P

[GodlessAmerica!]

Seriously why do you Europeans hate Russians so much(I know you will objet it, but thats how it is) ? Just because we are poorer?

[Cyclonite]

Hate is not the word, anymore anyway, rather 'healthy cautious' and quite justifiedly so one might say.

[AlexMartin2]

Propaply after a while, 20 years for example, when US will be in deepest recession, oil production is zero, Europe and Russian alliance against Chinese expansion will be good idea.

[Bongopete]

Oh this just gets better and better.......someone is doing drugs around here.

[Erki]

Satire..:)

Ditch EU and NATO and let's make a Scandinavian-Dutch-British union/alliance...:-P

Hear, hear.

I'll throw Finland, Poland, Czech Republic, the Baltic States, Canada and the US into the mix as well.

[delio]

Erki, why go through the trouble? Just have Finland and Sweden make their membership in NATO official, :lol: p-).

[The Dane]

Hear, hear.

I'll throw Finland, Poland, Czech Republic, the Baltic States, Canada and the US into the mix as well.

No, just the 5 NorthWestern Kingdoms.:)
We should of course have close relation with US, Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand.

[Erki]

No, just the 5 NorthWestern Kingdoms.:)
We should of course have close relation with US, Canada, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand.

Why don't we call it the Royal League.:lol:

[The Dane]

Yeah, cool name...p-)

[joka]

Satire..:)

Ditch EU and NATO and let's make a Scadinavian-Dutch-British union/alliance...:-P


Yeah, let's acknowledge there are benefits in pooling sovereignty and working together but narrow down the scope to a ~100 million union, just because, then pay for everything from scratch, exclude ourselves from the largest market in the world, only to still have to implement EU legislation. There's truly an idea for the hall of fame.

[Bongopete]

'Kingdoms'? So, who gets to be King?

[The Dane]

Well, it should of course still be 5 independed kingdoms but joint in a political and military union.

[Basillicus]

Well, it should of course still be 5 independed kingdoms but joint in a political and military union.

It's not a real Royal League if there aren't decadent royal families fighting over the throne and stabbing each others backs all the time.

[Bongopete]

So who gets to choose whos in charge?

[Basillicus]

So who gets to choose whos in charge?

Praetorian Guard?

[The Dane]

Odin and Thor will decide trough our Godi(temple-priest)..:)

[Bongopete]

Odin and Thor will decide trough our Godi(temple-priest)..:)


Cool! Sounds like a winner

[ting]

similarity of ideologies. socialism, eventual communism. scandinavians support marxism as did the soviets and russians.

I`m sorry to "beat a dead horse" but could you give me a clue of where you got these ideas from? I`m thinking it might be from one of the many right wing US talk show hosts I have heard of.

As for the meaning of these words, here is a quick rundown of How I interpret them.

Marxism: A Utopian dream with the point being that material wealth is no longer a necessity, and everybody lives happily ever after, etc.

Communism: On the road to Marxism. Hence communism is an attempt at creating a society which will eventually lead to Marxism.

I think a lot of people in the US think Communism = socialism. This leads to a lot of curious statements from our friends on the other side of the Atlantic:-D

As for the Russo Scandinavian thing: Russia is like a good friend who is an alcoholic. When he is sober he`s got all the qualities of a good friend. When he is drunk, you try to avoid him like the plague. During it`s history Russia/SU has been drunk for a lot of the time, however if Russia stays sober :hug:

Mind you I`m not talking militarily since I have a hard time seeing Norwegian soldiers defending Kamchatka from an invasion from whoever would invade it:roll:

[GodlessAmerica!]

Propaply after a while, 20 years for example, when US will be in deepest recession, oil production is zero, Europe and Russian alliance against Chinese expansion will be good idea.

In 10 years Russians will subsidize Americans to cut up their carriers. rofl

[Rostov]

Your version of history is interesting.

I can rephrase it:

Thus letting Finland become an independent state.

[Rostov]

So, the Finns should be more afraid of an invasion from the Swedes to "liberate"/"retake" southern Sweden? p-)

You think that Finns will indefinately fear that Russians will invade? Because supposedly Russians will never want to stop thinking about invading Finland?

[Rostov]

I`m sorry to "beat a dead horse" but could you give me a clue of where you got these ideas from? I`m thinking it might be from one of the many right wing US talk show hosts I have heard of.

As for the meaning of these words, here is a quick rundown of How I interpret them.

Marxism: A Utopian dream with the point being that material wealth is no longer a necessity, and everybody lives happily ever after, etc.

Communism: On the road to Marxism. Hence communism is an attempt at creating a society which will eventually lead to Marxism.

I think a lot of people in the US think Communism = socialism. This leads to a lot of curious statements from our friends on the other side of the Atlantic:-D



I didnt ask for interpretations, just look em up in a dictionary. I got those ideas from facts.

[Jippo]

....

As for the Russo Scandinavian thing: Russia is like a good friend who is an alcoholic. When he is sober he`s got all the qualities of a good friend. When he is drunk, you try to avoid him like the plague. During it`s history Russia/SU has been drunk for a lot of the time, however if Russia stays sober :hug:

Well done Ting! The problem is, that they are getting drinks on the table once more. This time it is not vodka, but fancy peacock color drinks with umbrellas. Problem is that they'll be drunk again! ;)

[pacifist]

You think that Finns will indefinately fear that Russians will invade? Because supposedly Russians will never want to stop thinking about invading Finland?

You have oil, we don't. We only have pines. Your future is propably brighter than ours.

[Lazarou]

How about you deal with the fact that Finland is not Scandinavian because its people is not of Scandinavian origin?
Care to elaborate?

[shaytan]

Care to elaborate?

Finns are of Finno-Ugrian origin. They are not Scandinavian. Probably that is what he ment to highlight.

[Lazarou]

Finns are of Finno-Ugrian origin. They are not Scandinavian.
How come?
.

[Basillicus]

How come?
.

Because Scandinavian != Finno-Ugric. :roll: Totally different language and different ethnic backround.

[Alexandr]

Fiino-Ugric ethnics is strong part of Russian nation - only part of Russians are pure Slavic,i am for exapmle Finno Ugrian Russian - native Mordvin :)
Heres a map of Finno-Ugrian tribes until Slavics are comes VI-VII century
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Изображение:Finno-ugrian-map.png
Brown on left - Slavics and Balts - yellow on south - Khozars,and green on east - Bulgars,others are Finno-Ugric.
And btw we are share atm same etnic minorities with Finland - Vepses and Karelians.

[Lazarou]

Because Scandinavian != Finno-Ugric. :roll: Totally different language and different ethnic backround.
The Finno-Ugric languages have coexisted with the Indo-European languages in Scandinavia since prehistory. Before the Indo-European languages spread further towards the North, Finno-Ugric languages were spoken in vast areas of Scandinavia. The Finno-Ugric speaking Sami people are considered the indigenous people of Scandinavia.

[ting]

The Finno-Ugric languages have coexisted with the Indo-European languages in Scandinavia since prehistory. Before the Indo-European languages spread further towards the North, Finno-Ugric languages were spoken in vast areas of Scandinavia. The Finno-Ugric speaking Sami people are considered the indigenous people of Scandinavia.

I`m not shure the Sami were here first. But on the language issue I can count to three in finnish. Yksi, Kaksi, kolme. In Norwegian it would be en to tre.

I know, I`m a genius:lol:

[Maskirovka]

The Finno-Ugric languages have coexisted with the Indo-European languages in Scandinavia since prehistory. Before the Indo-European languages spread further towards the North, Finno-Ugric languages were spoken in vast areas of Scandinavia. The Finno-Ugric speaking Sami people are considered the indigenous people of Scandinavia.

"The Finno-Ugric languages have coexisted with the Indo-European languages in Scandinavia since prehistory."

How long ago do you define pre-history?

"Before the Indo-European languages spread further towards the North, Finno-Ugric languages were spoken in vast areas of Scandinavia."

No, only in a small portion of Scandinavia, an area that was hardly populated.

The Finno-Ugric speaking Sami people are considered the indigenous people of Scandinavia.

No they are not. People from the the mainland europe immigrated to Scandinavia thousands of years before the Sami people settled in the most north and inland portion of Scandinavia...

You FAIL!1111 ;)

Finnish people are not Scandinavian and finnish/sami people don´t have european origin. If I were a finn I would be proud of that. That makes you (more so then the hungarians) unique in europe....

[delio]

This theoretical alliance would not be much about language, but mostly about general geopolitics. Geographically speaking, it is OK to consider Finland a Scandinavian country (much as it is OK to consider Russia a European country).

[Lazarou]

No they are not. People from the the mainland europe immigrated to Scandinavia thousands of years before the Sami people settled in the most north and inland portion of Scandinavia...
More or less hypothetical.

The Sami peoples have inhabited the northern regions of Fenno-Scandinavia and Russia for at least 2500 years. Since the Sami are the earliest of the contemporary ethnic groups represented in the area, they are consequently considered the indigenous population of the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

finnish/sami people don´t have european origin.
It's sad to see your education system has deteriorated to this level.

[Maskirovka]

More or less hypothetical.

The Sami peoples have inhabited the northern regions of Fenno-Scandinavia and Russia for at least 2500 years. Since the Sami are the earliest of the contemporary ethnic groups represented in the area, they are consequently considered the indigenous population of the area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people

It's sad to see your education system has deteriorated to this level.

Wow!11 A Wikipedia historian! Have you ever tried reading some real history books or at least taken some lectures in an university?
So Sami people in Scandinavia 2500 years ago.... Hmm, try to find out when the first people from Europe immigrated to Scandinavia following the decreasing ice-shelter was. I think you would be surprised :) (Don´t worry, you can find the sum of on wiki)
(For the rest of you, it was thousands of years before the Sami settled in the north and inlands)


As I said. All historians and scientists agree that finnish people heritage is from Ural and later on spread NW and NE (and a few to Hungary). They are unique in Europe. Except a finnish historian who thinks that Finn-Hungarians are the first people in Europe and the master race. The thing is, they were so superior they would not allow to mix with other races thats why they all speak such a unique language and has such unique looks (apperence). The rest of the worlds historians has off course considered this BS.

[MichaelF]

To drag the thread back on-topic:

Is there any concievable (realistic) situation that could align Russia and the Nordic States?

[cinoeye]

Yes, most people are suprised to find out that Finish and Hungarian language have the same root.
Same is when people hear Romanian is same as Italian, Spanish or French and acctualy closest to latin. :)

[joka]

To drag the thread back on-topic:

Is there any concievable (realistic) situation that could align Russia and the Nordic States?


Russia can align itself with The EU. This "Ruso-Scandinavian alliance" idea makes no sense and there is no realistic situation under which it could happen.

[MZKT]

Infact it's also not realistic that Russia will ever align with EU either.

[pacifist]

finnish/sami people don´t have european origin.


That's BS.

Is this some clever trolling?

[Flamming_Python]

That's BS.

Is this some clever trolling?

What BS? There is a reason why they are classified as Uralic tribes.

But then again, the European tribes, aren't originally from Europe either.

[Maskirovka]

That's BS.

Is this some clever trolling?

The finnish origin (The Ural) is in the border to europe, so off course you can say that they are european. But when your discussing pre-history origin they are not considered european due to the fact they are unique and don´t share DNA or language with the rest of europe. This is a fact and not BS.
(It´s a bit generalizing cause there are a few other people in europe that are not european (Basque?) but I have no studied that part so much I will not go into that)

BTW, this was confirmed already in the 19th century, before the DNA-techniques, by using language and looks studies only. It was the time of the race-research which later on brought Hiltler on to the stage. From Swedens point of view it was used to prove that finnish people were stupid and mentally handicapped in comparison to another european or something like that, at least what I´ve read in a schoolbook that dates from 1929. Tha book also says that the Chinese people smell bad cause they never clean themselves and that negroes are stupid and lazy but strong and therefor needs a harsh boss. OMG the **** kids learned in school in the 1930´s...

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

Infact it's also not realistic that Russia will ever align with EU either.

I hope it will.And also,joining NATO someday will be far more better for everyone instead of creating crapy alliances with China or some 3th World countries.

[kosse]

The finnish origin (The Ural) is in the border to europe, so off course you can say that they are european. But when your discussing pre-history origin they are not considered european due to the fact they are unique and don´t share DNA or language with the rest of europe. This is a fact and not BS.


I'd like the hear some sources for this. Because what I've read points to opposite.

According to a few studies quoted in Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_people):

Principal coordinate analysis shows that Lapps/Sami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people) are almost exactly intermediate between people located geographically near the Ural mountains and speaking Uralic languages, and central and northern Europeans. Hungarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarians) and Finns are definitely closer to Europeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_ethnic_groups). An analysis of genetic admixture between Uralic and European ancestors shows that Lapps/Sami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people) are slightly more than 50% European, Hungarians are 87% European, and Finns are 90% European. There is basic agreement between these conclusions and historical data on Hungary. Less is known about Finns and very little about Lapps/Sami (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people).[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_people#cite_note-40)

According to recent autosomal (genomewide, 10,000 markers instead of few looked at Y-DNA and MtDNA-studies) give distinct picture of Finnish genes. Finns are a genetic isolate. It could be said that all other Europeans have Finnish genes but Finns don't have all the genes found in other Europeans. Finns show very little if any Mediterranean and African genes but on the other hand almost 10% Finnish genes seem to be shared with some Siberian populations. Nevertheless more than 80% of Finnish genes are from single ancient North-European population, while most Europeans are admixture of 3 or more principal components.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_people#cite_note-41)

[Basillicus]

Not that it makes any difference IRL, but as far as I know we have been living in this corner of Europe at least for thousands of years, so it sounds kind of strange if someone says Finns are not "European".

[Lazarou]

So Sami people in Scandinavia 2500 years ago.... Hmm, try to find out when the first people from Europe immigrated to Scandinavia following the decreasing ice-shelter was.
Irrelevant.

Since the Sami are the earliest of the contemporary ethnic groups represented in the area, they are consequently considered the indigenous population of the area.

All historians and scientists agree that finnish people heritage is from Ural and later on spread NW and NE (and a few to Hungary).
The Finnish language originates in the European part of Russia northwest from the Urals, while yours came to Europe via the Caucasus. How does that make Finns "not European"?

Enough with the racism.

[Rostov]

You have oil, we don't. We only have pines. Your future is propably brighter than ours.


do you agree that Russia has no reason to invade Finland?

[kosse]

Enough with the racism.

Maybe he's just jealous. All the immigrants Sweden is taking are making their gene pool look pretty un-European soon enough. We'll see who gets the last laugh p-)

[Rostov]

To drag the thread back on-topic:

Is there any concievable (realistic) situation that could align Russia and the Nordic States?

This is only a hypothetical assumption, but if Russia revives Soviet culture (fully or partially), as it is doing it now, it should somewhat match the Scandinavian system.

[Rostov]

I hope it will.And also,joining NATO someday will be far more better for everyone instead of creating crapy alliances with China or some 3th World countries.

That probably wont happen, because it will mean that Russia would be under European influence.

[Flamming_Python]

This is only a hypothetical assumption, but if Russia revives Soviet culture (fully or partially), as it is doing it now, it should somewhat match the Scandinavian system.

Scandinavian Socialism is a system, and not so much Socialism as Welfare Nanny State.

Soviet Socialism is tied to Soviet identity, which isn't really Socialist either in the sense that it isn't internationalist, but rather applies exclusively to the ethnic groups residing on the territory of the former USSR.


The finnish origin (The Ural) is in the border to europe, so off course you can say that they are european. But when your discussing pre-history origin they are not considered european due to the fact they are unique and don´t share DNA or language with the rest of europe. This is a fact and not BS.

That is BS, not a fact. Hungarians mixed extensively with local Slavic tribes. As already mentioned, Russian core identity (originally a Slavic tribe) is heavily composed of Finno-Ugric peoples, and conversely there are many Finno-Ugric nations still inside Russia who mixed extensively with Slavs.

Estonian people will also have partly-Russian identity; if the current complexes and troubles die down. Only Finns managed to isolated themselves from everyone :)

[pacifist]

Only Finns managed to isolated themselves from everyone :)

Every country has inbred rednecks, but to claim that finns haven't mixed with any other people is ignorant. I myself have some russian, swedish and german in me.

[pacifist]

do you agree that Russia has no reason to invade Finland?

You don't need a reason.

[Basillicus]

Every country has inbred rednecks, but to claim that finns haven't mixed with any other people is ignorant. I myself have some russian, swedish and german in me.

Well, I think that it's a fact that Finns are more "inbred" than some other peoples. And I've heard that this homogenious genetic backround combined with extensive statistical data on healthcare makes Finns interesting reseach material for genetic study. Nowadays many people have some foreign blood in them but AFAIK this is relatively modern development that has happened only during the last few hundred years or so while during the ancient times nobody else was stupid enough to settle in a place with a climate like this. p-)

I myself have some Swedish and German blood also but that originates from the 18th and 19th century. Since my grandmother is from Karelia I'd be suprised if there wasn't some Russian blood also.

[joka]

Infact it's also not realistic that Russia will ever align with EU either.

If by align you mean join The EU, then no, Russia won't. I was talking more in the lines of close cooperation.

I think the issue here is that Russia doesn't want to align itself with anyone, she wants others to align themselves with her. Russians seem to want to become a superpower again, she can't just be big country in Europe. Hence ridiculous ideas like this Ruso-Scandinavian alliance.

I welcome an emerging and affluent Russia, now if she could only get with the program and stop being the neighbourhood bully so we can start having free trade and open borders it would greatly benefit us all.

[MichaelF]

That probably wont happen, because it will mean that Russia would be under European influence.

No more than the US is under European influence.

[ting]

This is only a hypothetical assumption, but if Russia revives Soviet culture (fully or partially), as it is doing it now, it should somewhat match the Scandinavian system.

Could you tell me what you think is similar between the Soviet system and the Scandinavian/Nordic system? I`m trying to understand your point of view, since despite having a good imagination I`m failing mizerably.

Is it aspects of the economy/governance/social services you mean?

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

That probably wont happen, because it will mean that Russia would be under European influence.

Better then be under chinese influence,in -lets say- 15-20 years.

[-Julik- 4.GdKp]

No more than the US is under European influence.

hehe,good joke!

[IMTT]

Scandinavia "Marxist", where does this stuff come from?

Putin would love this one;
Hey check it out, be our friend, great idea what were we thinking when we fought the Winter War. You have so much to offer us now. Love you babe.

"but if Russia revives Soviet culture (fully or partially), as it is doing it now, it should somewhat match the Scandinavian system."
Whhhaaaat, let me get off the floor here and dust myself off. Yea, in about a hundred years after a total change their entire GNP, laws, culture and government processes. Not to mention about a thousand other things.

Mannerhiem would roll over in his grave. Finland is part of the EU, I think Estonia, Sweden and several others would be real happy about this type of an alliance. Not to mention the opinion of the Finns. Wouldn't they have to work through the EU to accomplish this, that is if they wanted to? I must have missed the point completely on this one and be totally lost.

[Flamming_Python]

Mannerhiem would roll over in his grave. Finland is part of the EU, I think Estonia, Sweden and several others would be real happy about this type of an alliance. Not to mention the opinion of the Finns.

Just a bunch of raving Russophobes :D

[IronFinn]

sorry, reply to wrong comment.

[Wall]

Atleast Finland is member of NATO in couple of years, so i have hard time when im thinking this kind of alliance..

[IronFinn]

Well, I think that it's a fact that Finns are more "inbred" than some other peoples. And I've heard that this homogenious genetic backround combined with extensive statistical data on healthcare makes Finns interesting reseach material for genetic study. Nowadays many people have some foreign blood in them but AFAIK this is relatively modern development that has happened only during the last few hundred years or so while during the ancient times nobody else was stupid enough to settle in a place with a climate like this. p-)

I myself have some Swedish and German blood also but that originates from the 18th and 19th century. Since my grandmother is from Karelia I'd be suprised if there wasn't some Russian blood also.

I´m one of those inbred finns then since my family roots go down to 1600 and all of them are finnish of origin.

[Rostov]

No more than the US is under European influence.
It would be under European and US influence, thats basicaly going back to cold war rules.

[Rostov]

Could you tell me what you think is similar between the Soviet system and the Scandinavian/Nordic system? I`m trying to understand your point of view, since despite having a good imagination I`m failing mizerably.

Is it aspects of the economy/governance/social services you mean?

Well if you think about which country has successfully implemented marxism into its political system, and then realize that it's the countries that are on top of UN's "standard of living" chart. This means that Scandinavians understand marxism the best.
Since Russia is looking for an "identity" or a new ideology, it tries to copy other nation's ideals. US ideals did not work for Russia, so it looks for whatever is the next best system in line. Looking towards the Scandinavian system seems to be like a logical idea, and Russia already has experience in Marxism.

Unless Russia is developing it's own ideals.

[Flamming_Python]

Well if you think about which country has successfully implemented marxism into its political system, and then realize that it's the countries that are on top of UN's "standard of living" chart. This means that Scandinavians understand marxism the best.
Since Russia is looking for an "identity" or a new ideology, it tries to copy other nation's ideals. US ideals did not work for Russia, so it looks for whatever is the next best system in line. Looking towards the Scandinavian system seems to be like a logical idea, and Russia already has experience in Marxism.

Unless Russia is developing it's own ideals.

Rostov... what ARE you talking about? :|

[ting]

Well if you think about which country has successfully implemented marxism into its political system, and then realize that it's the countries that are on top of UN's "standard of living" chart. This means that Scandinavians understand marxism the best.
Since Russia is looking for an "identity" or a new ideology, it tries to copy other nation's ideals. US ideals did not work for Russia, so it looks for whatever is the next best system in line. Looking towards the Scandinavian system seems to be like a logical idea, and Russia already has experience in Marxism.

Unless Russia is developing it's own ideals.

Hmm, it is the the first time iwe heard the word marxism about the Scandinavian/nordic model;)

Here is the CIA`s take on the economies of the two countries at the top of the UN scale:

Iceland:
Iceland's Scandinavian-type economy is basically capitalistic, yet with an extensive welfare system (including generous housing subsidies), low unemployment, and remarkably even distribution of income. In the absence of other natural resources (except for abundant geothermal power), the economy depends heavily on the fishing industry, which provides nearly 70% of export earnings and employs 6% of the work force. The economy remains sensitive to declining fish stocks as well as to fluctuations in world prices for its main exports: fish and fish products, aluminum, and ferrosilicon. Substantial foreign investment in the aluminum and hydropower sectors has boosted economic growth which, nevertheless, has been volatile and characterized by recurrent imbalances. Government policies include reducing the current account deficit, limiting foreign borrowing, containing inflation, revising agricultural and fishing policies, and diversifying the economy. The government remains opposed to EU membership, primarily because of Icelanders' concern about losing control over their fishing resources. Iceland's economy has been diversifying into manufacturing and service industries in the last decade, and new developments in software production, biotechnology, and financial services are taking place. The tourism sector is also expanding, with the recent trends in ecotourism and whale watching. The 2006 closure of the US military base at Keflavik had very little impact on the national economy; Iceland's low unemployment rate aided former base employees in finding alternate employment.

Norway:
The Norwegian economy is a prosperous bastion of welfare capitalism, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. The government controls key areas, such as the vital petroleum sector, through large-scale state enterprises. The country is richly endowed with natural resources - petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals - and is highly dependent on its oil production and international oil prices, with oil and gas accounting for one-third of exports. Only Saudi Arabia and Russia export more oil than Norway. Norway opted to stay out of the EU during a referendum in November 1994; nonetheless, as a member of the European Economic Area, it contributes sizably to the EU budget. The government has moved ahead with privatization. Although Norwegian oil production peaked in 2000, natural gas production is still rising. Norwegians realize that once their gas production peaks they will eventually face declining oil and gas revenues; accordingly, Norway has been saving its oil-and-gas-boosted budget surpluses in a Government Petroleum Fund, which is invested abroad and now is valued at more than $250 billion. After lackluster growth of less than 1% in 2002-03, GDP growth picked up to 3-5% in 2004-07, partly due to higher oil prices. Norway's economy remains buoyant. Domestic economic activity is, and will continue to be, the main driver of growth, supported by high consumer confidence and strong investment spending in the offshore oil and gas sector. Norway's record high budget surplus and upswing in the labor market in 2007 highlight the strength of its economic position going into 2008.

surce:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

I don`t think equating the Nordic model with Marxism is a good use of Marx theories.

Russia following the Nordic model means a lot of changes would have to be made. The economy is one thing, but then you have to remember how huge and how many cultures/ethnic groups exist in Russia. The situation in chechnya is something that could not happen in the Nordic way of doing things. However if Russia would become a Nordic type society, I would think they would be friends with just about everybody, not just us Nordic countries.


I can see two scenarios where a millitary aliance is possible:
1. In a bipolar world the two superpowers The Nordic countries and China are at odds with each other. Russia fears China and seeks protection in an aliance with the Nordic countries.

2. Aliens invade and the rest of the world chickens out and their leaders agree to continuos anal probing in order to remain alive. We have that in common that we have an aversion to anal probingp-)


To sum it up a Ruso-Scandinavian millitary aliance is highly improbable.

However the term aryan-finno-ugric-slavic aliance is kind of interesting:lol:

[pacifist]

In a bipolar world the two superpowers The Nordic countries and China are at odds with each other. Russia fears China and seeks protection in an aliance with the Nordic countries.




China wouldn't mess with the mighty nordic countries.

[ting]

China wouldn't mess with the mighty nordic countries.

I don`t think so either. More likely they would pay us tribute in the form of a shipment of pandas. Those buggers are so cute:hug:

[Rostov]

Hmm, it is the the first time iwe heard the word marxism about the Scandinavian/nordic model;)

Here is the CIA`s take on the economies of the two countries at the top of the UN scale:

Iceland:
Iceland's Scandinavian-type economy is basically capitalistic, yet with an extensive welfare system (including generous housing subsidies), low unemployment, and remarkably even distribution of income. In the absence of other natural resources (except for abundant geothermal power), the economy depends heavily on the fishing industry, which provides nearly 70% of export earnings and employs 6% of the work force. The economy remains sensitive to declining fish stocks as well as to fluctuations in world prices for its main exports: fish and fish products, aluminum, and ferrosilicon. Substantial foreign investment in the aluminum and hydropower sectors has boosted economic growth which, nevertheless, has been volatile and characterized by recurrent imbalances. Government policies include reducing the current account deficit, limiting foreign borrowing, containing inflation, revising agricultural and fishing policies, and diversifying the economy. The government remains opposed to EU membership, primarily because of Icelanders' concern about losing control over their fishing resources. Iceland's economy has been diversifying into manufacturing and service industries in the last decade, and new developments in software production, biotechnology, and financial services are taking place. The tourism sector is also expanding, with the recent trends in ecotourism and whale watching. The 2006 closure of the US military base at Keflavik had very little impact on the national economy; Iceland's low unemployment rate aided former base employees in finding alternate employment.

Norway:
The Norwegian economy is a prosperous bastion of welfare capitalism, featuring a combination of free market activity and government intervention. The government controls key areas, such as the vital petroleum sector, through large-scale state enterprises. The country is richly endowed with natural resources - petroleum, hydropower, fish, forests, and minerals - and is highly dependent on its oil production and international oil prices, with oil and gas accounting for one-third of exports. Only Saudi Arabia and Russia export more oil than Norway. Norway opted to stay out of the EU during a referendum in November 1994; nonetheless, as a member of the European Economic Area, it contributes sizably to the EU budget. The government has moved ahead with privatization. Although Norwegian oil production peaked in 2000, natural gas production is still rising. Norwegians realize that once their gas production peaks they will eventually face declining oil and gas revenues; accordingly, Norway has been saving its oil-and-gas-boosted budget surpluses in a Government Petroleum Fund, which is invested abroad and now is valued at more than $250 billion. After lackluster growth of less than 1% in 2002-03, GDP growth picked up to 3-5% in 2004-07, partly due to higher oil prices. Norway's economy remains buoyant. Domestic economic activity is, and will continue to be, the main driver of growth, supported by high consumer confidence and strong investment spending in the offshore oil and gas sector. Norway's record high budget surplus and upswing in the labor market in 2007 highlight the strength of its economic position going into 2008.

surce:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

I don`t think equating the Nordic model with Marxism is a good use of Marx theories.

Russia following the Nordic model means a lot of changes would have to be made. The economy is one thing, but then you have to remember how huge and how many cultures/ethnic groups exist in Russia. The situation in chechnya is something that could not happen in the Nordic way of doing things. However if Russia would become a Nordic type society, I would think they would be friends with just about everybody, not just us Nordic countries.


I can see two scenarios where a millitary aliance is possible:
1. In a bipolar world the two superpowers The Nordic countries and China are at odds with each other. Russia fears China and seeks protection in an aliance with the Nordic countries.

2. Aliens invade and the rest of the world chickens out and their leaders agree to continuos anal probing in order to remain alive. We have that in common that we have an aversion to anal probingp-)


To sum it up a Ruso-Scandinavian millitary aliance is highly improbable.

However the term aryan-finno-ugric-slavic aliance is kind of interesting:lol:

I might agree with you that from the look of current world system such alliance is impossible, but Scandinavians did construct their governments on marxist ideas. Most of these countries have turned socialist (socialism is derived from marxism) after WW1, just like most of europe, and while mainland europe has also heavily relied on a capitalistic economic system, Scandinavians kept closer to socialist ideas of sharing rosources equally within the state.

[Rostov]

Rostov... what ARE you talking about? :|
What are you refering to exactly, the post you quoted or the original post?

[Maskirovka]

I might agree with you that from the look of current world system such alliance is impossible, but Scandinavians did construct their governments on marxist ideas. Most of these countries have turned socialist (socialism is derived from marxism) after WW1, just like most of europe, and while mainland europe has also heavily relied on a capitalistic economic system, Scandinavians kept closer to socialist ideas of sharing rosources equally within the state.

I fail to see what you mean. You really should read about what the differences between socialism/communism and socialdemocracy. Neither of the Scandinavian countries has ever been socialistic.

Almost every western country has had socialdemocratic governments during periods of time, does that make them socialists countries? Almost every country is more or less a welfare state, does that make them marxists/socialists?
Hell, welfare states even existed before Marx (Sweden for instance).

There is a HUGE difference between socialism and the western welfare state and socialdemocracy.

I can only speak for Sweden now but there is no way we would ever consider forming an alliance with Russia.
In Swedish history Russia has always been the big enemy. When the modern Swedish socialdemocracy party was founded their biggest object of hate was communism and there for Sovietunion. During WWII Sweden inprisoned swedish communists, just because of their political views. In the cold war the swedish federal police and a new secret "information agency" spied and kept records of swedish communists/marxists/socialists etc (like the Stasi in DDR) and recorded everthing they did, infiltrating their groups etc. The "information agency" BTW was created by the socialdemocrats with just this in purpose. They also worked close together with other western secret agencys, specially Mossad, CIA and MI6.

So you see, neither swedish governments, police/military or the people have ever had any love for the communist/socialist/marxist way of living.

Besides two completely different way of political and idelogical views of government there are just too many differences between Russia and Scandinavia. The people, culture, religion, langauge etc are from different worlds. Swedish vikings may have created Russia once and the name (Russia) it selves comes from a region in Sweden (Roslagen) we have just grown
to far apart and never really integrated (except on the battlefields) for the last 1000 years.

The only Russian thing that Swedes has ever adopted and taken to its hearts is the Vodka I guess...

[IMTT]

It appears as if some folks are trying to show some type of evidence in some way that Marxsism / Communism has worked somewhere, anywhere. Relax, it failed miserably without a doubt, move on. I don't think any of the native peoples from Norway, Finland or Sweden would l agree they have a Marxsist type government. It was and continues to be a bad idea to begin with. I surely don't think the Estonians would want to buy into that either for some reason.

Any success of the Scandinavian economy is in no way due to some greater utopian collective communist or marxist belief system. Yes, I would agree they are over taxed and over burdened by their system of government but that is a far cry from equal wealth distrubution and a great peoples collective republic. The only thing Russia did for Finland was make them a speed bump between them and Sweden several times. They paid them back in spades for that in the end. I don't think they will want to be breaking bread with the Russians anytime soon other than diplomatic lip service. Many Russians continue to escape Mother Russia by the droves to Finland or anywhere else for that matter they can get to for a better way of life. Thankfully the Finns held the line or they would be another developing nation formerly under Russian occupation.

[Rostov]

I fail to see what you mean. You really should read about what the differences between socialism/communism and socialdemocracy. Neither of the Scandinavian countries has ever been socialistic.

Almost every western country has had socialdemocratic governments during periods of time, does that make them socialists countries? Almost every country is more or less a welfare state, does that make them marxists/socialists?
Hell, welfare states even existed before Marx (Sweden for instance).

There is a HUGE difference between socialism and the western welfare state and socialdemocracy.

I can only speak for Sweden now but there is no way we would ever consider forming an alliance with Russia.
In Swedish history Russia has always been the big enemy. When the modern Swedish socialdemocracy party was founded their biggest object of hate was communism and there for Sovietunion. During WWII Sweden inprisoned swedish communists, just because of their political views. In the cold war the swedish federal police and a new secret "information agency" spied and kept records of swedish communists/marxists/socialists etc (like the Stasi in DDR) and recorded everthing they did, infiltrating their groups etc. The "information agency" BTW was created by the socialdemocrats with just this in purpose. They also worked close together with other western secret agencys, specially Mossad, CIA and MI6.

So you see, neither swedish governments, police/military or the people have ever had any love for the communist/socialist/marxist way of living.

Besides two completely different way of political and idelogical views of government there are just too many differences between Russia and Scandinavia. The people, culture, religion, langauge etc are from different worlds. Swedish vikings may have created Russia once and the name (Russia) it selves comes from a region in Sweden (Roslagen) we have just grown
to far apart and never really integrated (except on the battlefields) for the last 1000 years.

The only Russian thing that Swedes has ever adopted and taken to its hearts is the Vodka I guess...

Yea i guess you are right.

[The Dane]

Same thing for Denmark.
Being the 51th state únder US is more likely!

[wiking]

Norway is not an official EU member 'cuz it got lots of fish oil. But in reality, Norway pretty much is an EU member in all but name.

Which means we get all the laws and regulations, but none of the perks like free trade across the borders :fork: And we voted no twice, and if it comes up again i'll vote no as well. the EU is nothing but the realization of Hitlers Neuropa, it is dysfuntional and flawed and it will go down in flames.

Scary thing is, the chap sounds like he's out to make Norway into some evil, communist stronghold. we've got oil, no real armed forces any more and would really be a walkover for a US 'liberation'. *tin hat on* excuse me while i load up some brass and fortify my home

[IMTT]

Delio,

Norway is a full member of NATO, has US forces stationed on her soil and trains with them continuely. Yes, the EU would love to have them in and not for fish oil but petrolum oil and huge natural resources. No they are not a member of the EU because they are trying to hold on to the last reserves of "Fish Oil". Althought I'm not a fan of the body politic, immigration policies and or the government of Norway, it is not a member of the EU in order to remain an independent sovriegn nation and maintain their economy. From what I know and understand of Norway they are not begging anyone in the EU to become a member of their little club...nor do they want to. However the reverse does in fact remain true that the EU would love to have them on board if for no other reason then the GNP of this free nation and very wealthy little place. Of course this information is from local peoples, friends and military / Police personnel in Norway.

P.S. No communism there either!

[The Dane]

From my point off view:
The only reason that Norway isn't in EU yet is national pride.
An "young" indepented state that will follow the flock eventurally(?).

[IMTT]

Don't see it likely but could be, who knows.

[The Dane]

I think your smoking more than cigars :)

[delio]

Delio,

Norway is a full member of NATO, has US forces stationed on her soil and trains with them continuely. Yes, the EU would love to have them in and not for fish oil but petrolum oil and huge natural resources. No they are not a member of the EU because they are trying to hold on to the last reserves of "Fish Oil". Althought I'm not a fan of the body politic, immigration policies and or the government of Norway, it is not a member of the EU in order to remain an independent sovriegn nation and maintain their economy. From what I know and understand of Norway they are not begging anyone in the EU to become a member of their little club...nor do they want to. However the reverse does in fact remain true that the EU would love to have them on board if for no other reason then the GNP of this free nation and very wealthy little place. Of course this information is from local peoples, friends and military / Police personnel in Norway.

P.S. No communism there either!

I think Norway has made an excellent decision in so far not becoming a member of the EU.

P.s. 'Fish oil' was meant in a sarcastic matter.

[joka]

Delio,

Norway is a full member of NATO, has US forces stationed on her soil and trains with them continuely. Yes, the EU would love to have them in and not for fish oil but petrolum oil and huge natural resources.

Yes, because if Norway was to become a member, we would get their oil for free and/or for a cheaper price.

[IMTT]

Delio,
Sorry; Based on some of the comments I read on occasion I failed to see the sarcasim. My apologizes, no offense.

Danskeren
I retire in 2 years, so yea I will be smoking something other cigars then.


Basillicus
"I myself have some Swedish and German blood also but that originates from the 18th and 19th century. Since my grandmother is from Karelia I'd be surprised if there wasn't some Russian blood also."

The Karelians I know don't consider themselves Russians but Finnish Karelians. As I understand it Russia stole East Karelia and annexed it from Finland as payment at the end of the war. This is the birth place of the Kalevala and Finnish independence. The men I have spoken to that claim to be Karelians are not willing to accept the Russian blood line connection. I would hate to be in the room with the men I know and say they were of Russian stock. Many of these men still harbor some real hate for the folks next door. Most Finns I have met and more than likely you have had several family members that fought and died for Finland during the war years. Karelians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians) (Russian & Finnish) in Karelia treasured the Kalevala and its writings as nationalist poem text that lent pride to these people in their heritage. This document is partly responsible for the motivation of the national awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman) that led to Finland's independence from Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%27s_declaration_of_independence) in 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917) and came from Karelia. These folklores and stories came from Karelians who wanted a free Finland and independence...many died getting it. SISU, isn't that who you really are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala

Respectfully

[IMTT]

Joka,

Free? I would hope they are better at bussiness than that.

[Basillicus]

The Karelians I know don't consider themselves Russians but Finnish Karelians. As I understand it Russia stole East Karelia and annexed it from Finland as payment at the end of the war. This is the birth place of the Kalevala and Finnish independence. The men I have spoken to that claim to be Karelians are not willing to accept the Russian blood line connection. I would hate to be in the room with the men I know and say they were of Russian stock. Many of these men still harbor some real hate for the folks next door. Most Finns I have met and more than likely you have had several family members that fought and died for Finland during the war years. Karelians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians) (Russian & Finnish) in Karelia treasured the Kalevala and its writings as nationalist poem text that lent pride to these people in their heritage. This document is partly responsible for the motivation of the national awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman) that led to Finland's independence from Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%27s_declaration_of_independence) in 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917) and came from Karelia. These folklores and stories came from Karelians who wanted a free Finland and independence...many died getting it. SISU, isn't that who you really are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalevala

Respectfully

Yeah, but you'll have to remember that while they certanly are not of Russian origin they have been living right next to them since the ancient times, and I think the populations always mix at least a little in this kind of border zones. And according to my grand mother they actually had pretty good relations with the Russians; they had been doing good business with e.g. St. Petersburg for centuries and Russian travellers were passing through the area on daily basis. And it was a bit of a shock for the people when Finland gained independence, commies took the power in Russia and borders were closed. I've gotten the impression that the attitude towards the Russians changed hostile among these people only during the WW2 and after it. They had been dealing with the Russians frequently so they knew they were mostly just ordinary people while in the western Finland maybe the attitude had always been more hostile since their only experiences of the Russians were invading soldiers that were faced every now and then. Well, that certainly changed and I think most of these people who lost their homes in Karelia and relatives during the fight will carry their hate caused by this unjustice to the grave.

[The Dane]

Yes, because if Norway was to become a member, we would get their oil for free and/or for a cheaper price.

Wouldn't matter.
It's all ready an open market.

[joka]

No ****. What do you think my point was?

[Nordmannen]

Delio,

has US forces stationed on her soil

No, we don't.


An "young" indepented state that will follow the flock eventurally(?).
You fail. Norway was first unified in year 1000.

[IMTT]

Nordmannen,

You don't have a periment party US Marine contingent and rotating Marine Corps batt.(s) through Norway,annual exercies with them and provide cold weather trianing for the same? Our war ships don't do exercises annually there as well? Doesn't this country also send troops to training in the US at the War college, Ranger school, SFAS, BUDS and multiple other schools? I must be mistaken perhaps I was thinking of another Norway. My apologize for the incorrect information.

[Erik Sleivöks]

Ohhh… Norway will never be a “part” of the EU.

However if the EU cannot manage themselves, we can always take them under the protection of the Norwegian Crown. Like this; EU can be a "part" Norwayp-)

Naaahhh Just jokingwootwoot

[wiking]

Nordmannen,

You don't have a periment party US Marine contingent and rotating Marine Corps batt.(s) through Norway,annual exercies with them and provide cold weather trianing for the same? Our war ships don't do exercises annually there as well? Doesn't this country also send troops to training in the US at the War college, Ranger school, SFAS, BUDS and multiple other schools? I must be mistaken perhaps I was thinking of another Norway. My apologize for the incorrect information.

We host NATO exercises and hold cold weather training, but there is NO forign force permanently stationed in Norway. There is a USMC rapid deployment brigade with pre-stored equipment in Norway, but the troops themselves have never been stationed in Norway.

[Nordmannen]

Nordmannen,

You don't have a periment party US Marine contingent and rotating Marine Corps batt.(s) through Norway,annual exercies with them and provide cold weather trianing for the same?
"Periment"? If you mean permanent Us Marine contigent, then no. There's annual exercises and cold weather training, but they're not attended exclusively by the Us.

Edit: Too late :(

[Flamming_Python]

The Karelians I know don't consider themselves Russians but Finnish Karelians. As I understand it Russia stole East Karelia and annexed it from Finland as payment at the end of the war. This is the birth place of the Kalevala and Finnish independence. The men I have spoken to that claim to be Karelians are not willing to accept the Russian blood line connection. I would hate to be in the room with the men I know and say they were of Russian stock. Many of these men still harbor some real hate for the folks next door. Most Finns I have met and more than likely you have had several family members that fought and died for Finland during the war years. Karelians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelians) (Russian & Finnish) in Karelia treasured the Kalevala and its writings as nationalist poem text that lent pride to these people in their heritage. This document is partly responsible for the motivation of the national awakening (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennoman) that led to Finland's independence from Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland%27s_declaration_of_independence) in 1917 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917) and came from Karelia. These folklores and stories came from Karelians who wanted a free Finland and independence...many died getting it. SISU, isn't that who you really are?

Are these Karelians 'you know' from Russia or from Finland? I would imagine Russian Karelians (i.e. Orthodox Christians) are pretty much assimilated by now, it's ridiculous to imagine that they harbour resentment when they have been part of Russia for hundreds of years.

[IMTT]

East Karelia; former Finnish land they now live in Turku and surrounding areas. Thier famly homes were taken by them. Um, yea they are not fond of their Russian friends.

Yea bad spelling; you got me, permanent Us Marine contingent. Yes these exercises are attended by several NATO nations.

[Flamming_Python]

East Karelia; former Finnish land they now live in Turku and surrounding areas. Thier famly homes were taken by them. Um, yea they are not fond of their Russian friends.

Yea bad spelling; you got me, permanent Us Marine contingent. Yes these exercises are attended by several NATO nations.

I can understand that would be the case with West Karelian Lutherians, or those Karelians who found themselves on the wrong side of the border after the Revolution or Winter War.

But East Karelians? As in East Karliean Orthodox-Christian Russian speakers (read: not the Finnish speakers you chat with) who hold Russian citizenship, are more or less absorbed into Russian culture, society & people, have been part of Russia since the times of Veliky Novgorod and have much mixed blood and relatives all over Russia are not too fond of Russians, you say?

I personally have no idea; never met any, but somehow it just seems funny :)

[IMTT]

I would agree with your assertions however they wouldn't even if it was true and that was the point. And well put by the way. They don't consider themselves Russian they consider themselves Karelians whos land was stolen by the Russians and in fact has been poluted and trashed by them. This comes from occasional conversations involving them and their parents over a period of 15 years. You sound like you come from Central Finland around Kuupio I think that is how it is spelled?

[jokuvaan]

Scandinavia and Russia have totally different ideology, moral values, concept of justice, general agendas and so on.

Idea of their alliance is purely absurd.

Invisible frontline is there for a factual reasons.

[Flamming_Python]

I would agree with your assertions however they wouldn't even if it was true and that was the point. And well put by the way. They don't consider themselves Russian they consider themselves Karelians whos land was stolen by the Russians and in fact has been poluted and trashed by them. This comes from occasional conversations involving them and their parents over a period of 15 years. You sound like you come from Central Finland around Kuupio I think that is how it is spelled?

Me? Central Finland? No lol, although I am from close by... St. Petersburg :)

By the way send those Karelians a message from me - go to hell. The less separatist trash in my country; the better :)

[IMTT]

I knew you were from Socialist somewhere. Yea I'll pass that on for you. Of course this validates my first conclusions as stated.