Move to ban ruling Turkish party

[LaoSexMachine]

Move to ban ruling Turkish party
Turkey's chief prosecutor has asked the Constitutional Court to ban the governing AK Party, accusing it of anti-secular activities. Abdurrahman Yalcinkaya said he believed that there was enough evidence to show the party had been contravening Turkey's secular constitution.
The AK Party, which has Islamist roots, won last year's general elections.
So any move to close it will be extremely controversial, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says.
Headscarf controversy

The AKP is already locked in a battle with Turkey's secular elite, backed by the powerful military, over recent changes on the headscarf issue.
The Constitutional Court is reviewing an appeal by the main pro-secular opposition party on the validity of parliament's constitutional amendments in February to allow women wear Islamic headscarves at universities.


The AKP has argued that the headscarf ban unfairly bars large numbers of girls from higher education in a nation where about 66% of women wear the scarf.
Many secularists in the country equate the wearing of the headscarf with political Islam.
In a surprise announcement, Mr Yalcinkaya, the chief prosecutor at the Court of Appeals, said he had filed a court request for the closure of the AKP.
He also revealed that the party had been under investigation for six months.
Speaking on Turkish television later on Friday, an AKP lawmaker said he was shocked at the news.
The lawmaker said that senior party officials and lawyers were now holding an emergency meeting in the capital Ankara.
The AKP has its roots in an Islamist party that has been banned.
But the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan - which is negotiating for Turkey to join the EU - has always insisted that its political views have changed.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7297390.stm

[Mr.Flint]

Move to ban ruling Turkish party
Turkey's chief prosecutor has asked the Constitutional Court to ban the governing AK Party, accusing it of anti-secular activities. Abdurrahman Yalcinkaya said he believed that there was enough evidence to show the party had been contravening Turkey's secular constitution.
The AK Party, which has Islamist roots, won last year's general elections.
So any move to close it will be extremely controversial, the BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says.
Headscarf controversy

The AKP is already locked in a battle with Turkey's secular elite, backed by the powerful military, over recent changes on the headscarf issue.
The Constitutional Court is reviewing an appeal by the main pro-secular opposition party on the validity of parliament's constitutional amendments in February to allow women wear Islamic headscarves at universities.


The AKP has argued that the headscarf ban unfairly bars large numbers of girls from higher education in a nation where about 66% of women wear the scarf.
Many secularists in the country equate the wearing of the headscarf with political Islam.
In a surprise announcement, Mr Yalcinkaya, the chief prosecutor at the Court of Appeals, said he had filed a court request for the closure of the AKP.
He also revealed that the party had been under investigation for six months.
Speaking on Turkish television later on Friday, an AKP lawmaker said he was shocked at the news.
The lawmaker said that senior party officials and lawyers were now holding an emergency meeting in the capital Ankara.
The AKP has its roots in an Islamist party that has been banned.
But the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan - which is negotiating for Turkey to join the EU - has always insisted that its political views have changed.


Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/7297390.stm
I hope it will be successful.

[Vassago]

Not %66 of the women wear headscarf. According to researches only %1 of the girls that can not go to the college are victim of the headscarf ban. Their greatest problem is financial problems.

My biggest fear is that the result. If they dont get banned than they will play the victim role and this can cause them to get stronger.

[chris450]

I hope it will be successful.

civil war is no joke,cause ultimately thats what you get when you try to crack down on a party that got 46% in the latest elections...

and IMO decisions like this one only make it more popular

[9mmRifle]

Their greatest problem is....


I fear their greatest problem is that they might be mentally disturbed, if a religion forces it upon you to be ashamed of yourself in public then maybe its not the University that is at fault but then mental health of those who have forced this barrier upon themselves.

[Vassago]

Not %46, the real value is %36 or something like that but it is hard to explain the reason here. Also Why would that cause a civil war? The decision belongs to the court, whether we like it or nor we will have to obey it at the end. Ofcourse there will be some protest and some of them may get ugly but caliming that the closure of AKP will cause a civil war is a little overestimating. By the way this is not the first of a governing part faces enclosure.

Also you are right about these decisions. I'd rather see them lose an election and become a history but it seems like until next elections they may damage the economy, secularizm and especially democracy very badly.

[Doublethinker]

Like most of ex-Soviet/ex-secular countries (Albania, Bosnia, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Iraq), Turkey seems to be sliding once again into the abyss of muslim faith.

Undoing all Ataturk has achieved.

[deli_dumrul]

Not %46, the real value is %36 or something like that but it is hard to explain the reason here.

People who think they will join the EU.


Also Why would that cause a civil war?

Worst case, some civil unrest, demonstrations, etc. The most likely scenario is them visiting their pals in the EU parliament and b*tch.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Turkey is a secular,laic,democratic and state governed by the rule of law. If anyone is against to the system,will be eliminated. This is simple.

My personal opinion about banning AKP: AKP's some extreme polars force to people for more religionous way in the public area when laic system doesn't approve. They have to understand something that Turkish people is %99,8 muslim and living in a secular system peacefully.

We have never ever a desire to be a second mullah regime like Iran or something like that. No way to fabricated religionists. Ataturk (father of Turks)'s way is our main way.

Facts:

Turkey religion: %99,8 Islam, %0,02 Christians,Suryanies and Jews.
State religion: NO (not like Greece's orthodox state, or Iran's mullahs), LAIC,SECULAR
Democracy: YES
Market System: YES





regards,
CDTRF

[chris450]

not like Greece's orthodox state, or Iran's mullahslol what? is Denmark (http://www.denmark.dk/en/menu/AboutDenmark/GovernmentPolitics/TheChurchReligion/) Iran too? :D

even in the midst of an internal crisis,its never too late to spout some mud on Greece

[Moledet]

lol what? is Denmark (http://www.denmark.dk/en/menu/AboutDenmark/GovernmentPolitics/TheChurchReligion/) Iran too? :D

even in the midst of an internal crisis,its never too late to spout some mud on Greece
It's always good to spout mud on Greece.
So I see that our plan to remove Olympiakos from the top16 had worked :)

[chris450]

It's always good to spout mud on Greece.
So I see that our plan to remove Olympiakos from the top16 had worked :)

ha ha it was a good game ,i like Maccabi :)

[Afro-European]

This sh!t remember me of Necmettin Erbakan when he was forced to resign in 1998.Banning the APK will feed into the extremis' hands.Reversing the headscarf law 'd be a better solution imho.

[khukuri]

Whatever happened to letting people decide themselves. Interesting to see our nice democratic westerners here preaching crackdowns on elected parties, the hypocrisy is oozing in this thread...

There is a big difference between a theocracy were religion rules over man and religious freedom where people who ware scarf can attend uni and be treated as any other citizen.

[oxxi]

a possible Ban to AKP is the best news i have recieved in a long time, BUT if you ask me is it going to be good and peaceful for Turkey, well i dont think so.
AKP will not go down quietly. There are a lot of people that supports it and i believe banning a ruling country and also banning the current president (along with the prime minister) will eventually lead to chaos.

Even though i love seeing those backward arab-wanna be's out of our parliament, i still think this way is not the right way.

[Kradder]

If anyone is against to the system,will be eliminated.
You really stimulate military dictatorship over democracy, don't you want the Turkish people to be free in their desires?

[oxxi]

You really stimulate military dictatorship over democracy, don't you want the Turkish people to be free in their desires?

Firstly, get your own country to the point of Turkish democracy and then crititise it.
If you want, we can compare the civil rights/laws of Turkey and its arab neighbours..
:bash:

[4X4Driver]

Whatever happened to letting people decide themselves. Interesting to see our nice democratic westerners here preaching crackdowns on elected parties, the hypocrisy is oozing in this thread...

Democracy does not mean freedom to destroy it. All democracies protects itself against being destroyed by its users one way or the other. Once it's gone it can be very difficult/painful to return to it. These people have been changing the laws that protects secular const. and the democratic laws bit by bit and now, they've been charged for these actions. Not long ago, Erdogan himself said " Democracy is not an achivement, but it's an tool for us to reach our goals at the end" and "Democracy is like a train for us, we'll get off of it when we get to the station we want" (and this is only a couple of many examples). These people are simply out there for to counter Atatürk's reforms in Turkey.

Erdogan at the feet of Hekmetyar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQIZ7aLqzGc&feature=related

I wish this was in english but can't find one so far. Maybe a Turkish member will take the time to translate it for others...

İşte recep tayyip erdoğan (This is Recep Tayyip Erdogan)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKaO_dyKIpA&feature=related

[Nightsky]

Democracy does not mean freedom to destroy it.

What I REALLY don't get: isn't democracy mostly about freedom of choice ?

Now, as far as I was informed by the media, the law is not compelling anyone to wear a headscarf, it is merely ALLOWING it.

Now, in most of western Europe, people couldn't care less and women are ALLOWED to wear headscarfs, not forced.

So I think the law in question is perfectly democratic, much more than a law banning headscarfs, boots, bras or gloves.

In fact I do wonder, why the Turks on this board see this as a problem for democracy

[4X4Driver]

What I REALLY don't get: isn't democracy mostly about freedom of choice ?

Not an absolute freedom that'll destroy the democracy and its benefits for the people...if it was, then western countries would not have any problem recognizing Hamas...after all, they also used democratic means to come to power, But we all know, their aim is to replace demaocracy with Sharia.

I understand your confusion and that's mostly due to the new's source's decision to keeping the problem limited to headscarf problem and not detailing the whole situation. The gov't is actually being charged for underminding the secular laws of the const. over the years..the headscarf thing is only the last drop.


Now, as far as I was informed by the media, the law is not compelling anyone to wear a headscarf, it is merely ALLOWING it.

Yes...that's the new law the gov't changed recently (couple of weeks ago)


Now, in most of western Europe, people couldn't care less and women are ALLOWED to wear headscarfs, not forced.

So I think the law in question is perfectly democratic, much more than a law banning headscarfs, boots, bras or gloves.

In fact I do wonder, why the Turks on this board see this as a problem for democracy

In the western European countries, these people are in minority and they don't represent danger to your democratic system (as for taking over the country's democratic/secular institutions gradually and change the whole system from its roots) In our case, there is this danger since the population is over 90% muslim (although mostly moderate, religion can be very easly manupilated/abused)..there is always this specific threat for our society.

Let me put it like this for a better comparison; I don't know where you're from, but imagine that someone like pope (I'm sure you know his Christian values) is ruling your country and wants to rule your country with these values and wants to force people to obey these laws.

Now, if our country's leader in the past didn't openly declared that he wasfor sharia and referred to Islamic values as for an option to secular democracy, we wouldn't have much to worry..we'd only take him as someone conservative...but that isn't the case with him...unfortunatelly.

[Raven_gr]

You have a constitution right? what does it say about the whole situation?
Also wasn't the government VOTED in power, with overwhelming majority? It is a constitutional matter, maybe a legislative also, but not a judiciary one. Let the appropriate powers deal with it

[4X4Driver]

You have a constitution right? what does it say about the whole situation?
Also wasn't the government VOTED in power, with overwhelming majority? It is a constitutional matter, maybe a legislative also, but not a judiciary one. Let the appropriate powers deal with it

They've been messing with the const's irriversable amendments..which happenes to be the ones referring to secularism. So, they've been comitting a crimes against the const. therefore it's a judiciary one.

[vanreis]

Democracy does not mean freedom to destroy it. All democracies protects itself against being destroyed by its users one way or the other. Once it's gone it can be very difficult/painful to return to it.

True, all democracies have built in clauses in the constitution that allow checks and balances between powers. The judicial branch will often check political parties and governments in place by launching lawsuits based on the constitution.

[Raven_gr]

Can you provide some detais and please be specific.

Don't take me wrong, coming from a Greek, but it looks like the not so democratic military/ kemalist establishment is trying to hold on to power.

I wouldn't like a mullah run state near my country any more than any other westerner but aren't you been undemocratic in order to safeguard democracy?

Thanks for any and every info on the matter

[Ulytau]

First lets say about democracy..

Where was the our so called democrats from all around the world at 80s..

First i'm not extreme leftist or something or right wing always like beein balance at my political ideas but

When our youngs were dying still where was the so called democrats especially at Kenan Evren times?

About AKP's vote i said before i think this votes also about for showing reaction to Deniz Baykals CHP''Fellow party members and voters totally hate from him'' there was serious support from intellectual people to AKP before election,today we reading their comments..

Also there was serious demonstrations for protesting AKP about some changins from Workers,Workers who workin at AKP municipalities joined this demonstration too..

About myself of course i am not aganist to my religion ''Islam'' but i am always aganist who tryin to use religion for their own agenda its all about our background i think.

Still their past will follow them its not been big surprise for me,unimportant men at party been problem for them..

My personal idea its not all about this issue..

When operations are continue they tried to rise their salary,they tried show themselves as a Ghazi ''Veteran'' for having same rights with them ''free health service etc and SAME FOR THEIR FAMILIES TOO WHEN THEY ARE RICH''

But same time they tried to make a law cause IMF wanted..

Truth is the closing party not effective.

AKP,CHP,MHP,DSP etc. need to do serious meeting with jurists,generals,university profs etc for trust and especially about their sensitiveness..

And about closing honestly i dont think so but they need to be serious bout unimportant party members..

[4X4Driver]

Can you provide some detais and please be specific.

Don't take me wrong, coming from a Greek, but it looks like the not so democratic military/ kemalist establishment is trying to hold on to power.

I wouldn't like a mullah run state near my country any more than any other westerner but aren't you been undemocratic in order to safeguard democracy?

Thanks for any and every info on the matter

Of course it is a struggle between the Atatürk's secular democracy and the Islamic fundementalists.



There are thousends of speaches about their disbelief in secular democratic sytem and call for its demolition...I've already posted couple examples of them in my previous post...but they've been charged for their solid actions....which few happenes to be anything from; outlawing alcohol selling/consuming by force in many AKP municipalities to disagreeing with ECHR's approval of the headscarf ban and insisting on asking the none existing mullahs about it.

Democracy...esp. the one in Turkey should be protected at all costs.

[Vassago]

AKP uses democracy as a tool to reach their goals. This is not my opininon Erdoğan told this himself. He has a speech with the general idea of "democracy is like a bus, we will use it until we arrive our stop"
Also in another of hes speechs he said "mosques are our barracks and the minarets are our bayonets"
In an interview to an Australian radio he used the word "frag" for the killed soldiers by pkk.
Also it does not matter how many people voted to AKP. The majority does not give anyone the right to act against the laws of this country. They may have the %40 of the votes but there is a majority of %60 against them ofcourse the assumption of everyone voted to AKP is against secularism is not true either . My aunt voted them too but the only reason is their actions on the health program.


When i find time, i will translate the official reasons declared by the prosecutor.

[Clearday-TRForce]

AKP uses democracy as a tool to reach their goals.



Democracy does not mean freedom to destroy it. All democracies protects itself against being destroyed by its users one way or the other. Once it's gone it can be very difficult/painful to return to it.


These are best shots on disputed issue and explain what we usually think for them.

* Democracy will be protected against the people who want to destroy it.
* Turkey will stay secular,laic in any situation for ever.
* Constitution is the main protector.(1)
We (citizens) is the second protectors. (2)
Turkish Armed Forces is the third protector. (3)

If a chain limps, other chains will connect to each other. %47 of citizens voted AKP in the elections but it doesn't mean all them defence AKP policy in anytime. %50-60 of %47 will not allow to AKP for destroying regime. AKP uses these people's votes for their secret jobs like lifting headscarf, and it will continue if an institution can not stop them on process.



regards,
CDTRF

[Kradder]

Firstly, get your own country to the point of Turkish democracy and then crititise it.
If you want, we can compare the civil rights/laws of Turkey and its arab neighbours..



Most Turkish members here always state that Kurds are part of Turkey and do not have the right to 'get an own country', so if we haven't got the right to interfere with Turkish politics and do not have the right to separate, what right do we have?

[Clearday-TRForce]

Most Turkish members here always state that Kurds are part of Turkey and do not have the right to 'get an own country', so if we haven't got the right to interfere with Turkish politics and do not have the right to separate, what right do we have?


Kurdish brothers are our citizens, don't draw this situation for an independent one. What I have they already have,so what is your intention all time to mention these things in your side? why do our citizens must have another country while they have already got?


Note: 63 Kurdish tribes (also Barzani's tribe) in N.Iraq also announces to be a part of Turkey a.s.a.p.

This is a very good show how Kurdish brothers carefully think and not to be a puppet of foreign powers to eliminate and weaken all sides in the region.

The main protector of Kurdish brothers in Saddam regime is the Turkey. Turkey has always provided Kurdish brothers safe heaven.

[Kradder]

Note: 63 Kurdish tribes (also Barzani's tribe) in N.Iraq also announces to be a part of Turkey a.s.a.p.
Unless you do not provide a valid non-Turkish source for your statement, I can also tell that the majority of Turks want to live under the Kurdish flag where they are not subject to a military dictatorship.



The main protector of Kurdish brothers in Saddam regime is the Turkey. Turkey has always provided Kurdish brothers safe heaven.
Turkey and Saddam regime were the best anti-Kurd friends in history.

As we know, since Saddam is gone, Turkey's keeping a close eye on the Iraqi Kurds, because Saddam is not there anymore to crush them.

[4X4Driver]

Most Turkish members here always state that Kurds are part of Turkey and do not have the right to 'get an own country', so if we haven't got the right to interfere with Turkish politics and do not have the right to separate, what right do we have?

As non Turkish kurd, you have no legal rights in Turkey. Ask to the country you're living in(or citizen of) for your seperation rights..maybe they'll give you part of their own country..if not, then you have your kurdistan to practice your rights.


I can also tell that the majority of Turks want to live under the Kurdish flag where they are not subject to a military dictatorship.

people don't buy this kind of rhetorics any longer...esp. if it's coming from someone who's trying to paint a different picture of their way of practicing "democracy"


'Kurdistan': A Gangster State.

Dr. Kamal Said Qadir, also known as Kamal Berzenji, was kidnapped by the agents of the Kurdish Democratic Party's intelligence unit, Parastin, on Oct. 26, 2005, and jailed. His "crime": writing "insulting" articles about Kurdish Democratic Party high mucky-muck and Kurdish Regional Government (KRG) President Massoud Barzani. In short, he committed lese-majeste, i.e., Qadir wounded the dignity of the king. After a "trial" that lasted one hour, he was sentenced to 30 years in prison.

http://www.aina.org/news/2006019103654.jsp



Turkey and Saddam regime were the best anti-Kurd friends in history.

As we know, since Saddam is gone, Turkey's keeping a close eye on the Iraqi Kurds, because Saddam is not there anymore to crush them.

Again...you're being ungrateful and deniying the facts that up to a million of you seeked refruge in Turkey when Saddam forces attacked in 1991.

BTW, please don't derail the thread with irrevelant subjects...the thread is about AKP's recent situation.

[Kradder]

As non Turkish kurd, you have no legal rights in Turkey. Ask to the country you're living in(or citizen of) for your seperation rights..maybe they'll give you part of their own country..if not, then you have your kurdistan to practice your rights.


I do not identify myself as a Turkish Kurd. But I do come from a place which happens to be inside the borders of Turkey today, so I have the right to interfere with Turkish politics.
Be ready to defend the Turkey that I do not see as my home.

[deli_dumrul]

I do not identify myself as a Turkish Kurd. But I do come from a place which happens to be inside the borders of Turkey today, so I have the right to interfere with Turkish politics.
Be ready to defend the Turkey that I do not see as my home.

Good good. Last time I heard, you were having some issues. Is everything ok on Kandil mountain?

[4X4Driver]

Be ready to defend the Turkey that I do not see as my home.

So..you actually decided to join PKK at the end?

[chris450]

yeap he was trained in a kebab shop at Lavrio, double tzatziki souvlaki is his specialty - a deadly combo

code name : Barut Kiofte

[deli_dumrul]

Rozerin (Apo's b*tch) was captured in Germany a couple of days ago. All kebab shops that she had relations with, had a special meeting in Bremen to gather some money to get a lawyer. I think they are sh*tting rocks right now... Is Kradder one of them?

Here is the Turkish link:

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/dunya/8468508.asp?gid=229&sz=70214

Edit: Decided to translate a bit


Having captured Rozerin a couple days ago, German police now started to interrogate the kebab shops that Rozerin had relations with.rofl

[Vassago]

Is it possible to talk about Turkiye without being dragged into the Kurd issue? I think we are doing a big mistake, because as far as i see kradder can not support his calims with any official sources. His sources are always terrorist supportive web sites. If he was a rational guy he would not get banned after every Turk-Kurd related topic.

[Vassago]

Some speechs of Erdoğan causing this move (taken from the official declaration)

In 1997 in Siirt he said "mosques are our barracks, minarets are our bayonets, domes of the mosques are our helmets, this country has been ruled in a wrong way and we will struggle against them with our way... I proudly admit that my reference is Islam... After this speech he got banned from political life. When the AKP was founded he was declared as the chairman of the party. This situation was against the laws because a politically banned person could not become the chairman of a political party. The high court has opened a trial against this situation in order to close AKP but before the trial was ended AKP won the 2002 elections and they changed the law that can cause their enclosure to "loosing the financial government aids". Technically Erdoğan should not have been priminister and the AKP should not have existed.

In 2003 in Malesia to the news paper "News Straits Times" he said "As a modern Islamic country, Turkiye can be a rol model for the peace between civilizations". This sentence may seem innocent but according to the Turkish constitution Turkiye is a secular country which can not be described with a religion.

In another of his speechs (in Christchurch) he said, "there are several ethnicities in Turkiye, the bond that connects these ethnicities is Islam". Also when reporters asked him about this statement he again said "Islam is like a cement in Turkiye, it is the greatest force that unites us".

Several times he claimed that the Quran courses can not be illegal. The term "illegal Quran courses is non-sense" he said. At this point i need to make an explanation. In Turkiye children can learn to read Quran in their summer vacations in mosques, but these courses must be under the control of government, because it is a very useful way to use Quran courses to brainwash little children. Erdoğan claims that there is no need to control these courses and he says "what harm can bring to learn Quran"

A speech from 1994; ...Now we are on a road, i believe the green lights (the colour of Islam) are visible at this moment, but you should know that there many signs until we get there. I beleive at the end we will be victorious with the permission of Allah, because this the will of Allah. We will not be like Algeria, we are coming silently and steadly.

Again in the same speech; ... One can not be both Muslim and secular, these two can not be together at the same time. In this case it is impossible for a muslim to say "i am secular" because the creator of muslim is Allah and the sovereignty is his, but seculars say that "sovereignty belongs to the nation without any condition". (This is a saying of the Mustafa Kemal ATATÜRK)

In 2005 in Thailand about a decision of the European Court of Human Rights on the headscarf issue he said the following;
"Now i want to ask this question those who gave that decision. Did you consider your laws and checked out if your laws are in accordance with your beliefs or not? Did you wonder what this headscarf is? Did you ask this question to any Muslim theologians? You had to ask this to Muslim theologians before you gave this decision." About this subject he later stated that "the right to call a decision on this subject belongs to the theologians, not to the courts"

Last week during a speech he said these; "The right to forgive a murderer belongs to the relatives of the victim". This stament belongs to the sheria law. So he clearly revealed his desire of sheria.

Some of his sayings before he became the primisinter;

- Thanks to god i believe in sheria laws.
- I am the imam of the Istanbul (when he was the mayor of Istanbul)
- They say that i have opened the city council meeting with a prayer (Fatiha prayer). So what is wrong with it? The fatiha prayer means to bring light to the darkness and we are doing it.
- I am against the celebration of the new year.
- I find it non-sense to stand like a stick during the moment of silence in the memory of ATATÜRK.

Well i translated the most important ones, there are a toltal 71 of this kind of speechs belonging to him. I will try to translate speech of the other members of the government and the AKP later.

[WoW]

I do not identify myself as a Turkish Kurd. But I do come from a place which happens to be inside the borders of Turkey today, so I have the right to interfere with Turkish politics.
Be ready to defend the Turkey that I do not see as my home.
then go away we dont want you your either gonna get shot or your gonna have to leave you cannot call south eastern part of turkey ''kurdistan'' you have no right, there were nether a kurdistan and there would nether be one its just a trick. did you know that kurds are iranic? then go to iran you cannot be in our politics if you are in the mountains banging your own sister. im telling you watch your back you wont wanna be caught on the internet writting these things in school your teacher would ottoman slap you. :bash: you best be warned because i dont think this website gives you the right to sponser terrorism

[umutferhat]

Kradder Are u a paranoid?Whenever there is a discussion bout Turkey u show up and ruin everything.Pls just stay in topic....

[Canadian2urk]

Kradder is just pissed off the TSK destroyed his imbreeding camps in Kandil.. The last quote from him is pure PKK sentiments. rofl

[Satellite Weapon]

Secular society = Freedom from religious rule

[oxxi]

Most Turkish members here always state that Kurds are part of Turkey and do not have the right to 'get an own country', so if we haven't got the right to interfere with Turkish politics and do not have the right to separate, what right do we have?

Kurds are ofcourse part of our country and they have every right in terms of freedom and democracy , we are investing so much money on our kurdish regions, just to end the violence and let those brainwashed kurds came down from the mountains and go to schools, be teachers or doctors.

I thought you were an iraqi kurd and thats why i wrote take care of your own country and not ours, if you are a turkish kurd then i'm sorry for the previous msg, you have every right to make comments about OUR country.

Peace.

[4X4Driver]

I thought you were an iraqi kurd and thats why i wrote take care of your own country and not ours, if you are a turkish kurd then i'm sorry for the previous msg, you have every right to make comments about OUR country.

Peace.



I do not identify myself as a Turkish Kurd.

He's not a Turkish kurd (as he stated in his post above) He's a Iraqi kurd.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=110480

[Clearday-TRForce]

Kradder is a sympathizer of PKK terror organization. There is no need to communicate with him for ongoing issues.

[derkrieger]

On a side note, the chief prosecutor who initiated this probe is a Kurd from Urfa. So much for the oppression of the Kurds, while they are thriving in Turkey's secular and democratic atmosphere.

[chris450]

Good god lad! do you actually mean this?

The so called village guards are Kurds too working for the Turkish gov ,how exactly does that indicate that there is no opression for the Kurds?

you are fighting a guerilla war for the last 3 decades for gods sake

[derkrieger]

Nice flamebait Chris. Keep up the good work!!

[Rictor]

I hope it will be successful.

I too hope that the party elected by ~47% of Turkey's public will be banned. It will send a strong message to the Islamists.

[oxxi]

On a side note, the chief prosecutor who initiated this probe is a Kurd from Urfa. So much for the oppression of the Kurds, while they are thriving in Turkey's secular and democratic atmosphere.

shame on you to even talk about the chief prosecutors ethnicity like it has anything to with the topic. This is by itself shows your lack of sympathy for Kurdish people, you will use every thing you can to prove kurds are threated equal as turks but i m afraid its not the case because Turkey isnt just Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir. its also Harran, Cizre, Yukseova, and away from the major cities the kurds live in shameful conditions without proper care from their own government, this was going on for many many years.
I didnt even know he was a kurd and it makes him even a bigger role model for the future generations, i wish every citizen of my country would have been as patriotic and as that kurdish chief prosecutor.

[derkrieger]

Look you fake-Kemalist, have I ever mentioned sthg. bad about his legal action? Stop talking about stuff and people you dont really know.
If one person achieves to reach a high post in the bureaucracy as he does, given his roots, that means there is really not an ongoing discrimination, which allegedly is applied in Turkey.
I have been to the places you mentioned. One would be at pains to make others believe that situation in those places are severely worse than those of say Karaman, Rize or Yozgat.
Now go back and reflect a little bit on these.

[deli_dumrul]

.
I have been to the places you mentioned. One would be at pains to make others believe that situation in those places are severely worse than those of say Karaman, Rize or Yozgat.


Exactly, on a household level, Central Anatolian region is on par with Southeastern region when it comes to poverty.

Population wise Southeastern region is still higher but it is due to the fertility rate; which is more than Central Anatolian region.

When it comes to income disparity, Black Sea and Southeastern regions are the worst.


Regional income disparities show another dimension of income inequality. Aegean and Marmara regions have 39.1% of households but 54.9% of income. The greatest disparity between income and household number was in the Black Sea and Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia regions. The Black Sea region has 12.5% of the total households and 9.0% of the total income. The Eastern and Southeastern Anatolia regions have 18.3% of households and 8.6% of income

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2205969

For a region to flourish, it needs to be economically integrated with its surroundings. With hostile regimes like, Syria and Iran, and all the instability in Iraq, this is not possible.

Blaming your government for this is simply retarded particularly when poverty is a national issue.

[Hollis]

Some warnings have been given out. Keep it civil and stay on topic.

[Satellite Weapon]

I hope it will be successful.




X2



:)

[Holycrusader]

Whatever happened to letting people decide themselves. Interesting to see our nice democratic westerners here preaching crackdowns on elected parties, the hypocrisy is oozing in this thread...

There is a big difference between a theocracy were religion rules over man and religious freedom where people who ware scarf can attend uni and be treated as any other citizen.

*2

Recently Turkey do not act as democracy...

[derkrieger]

This oxxi guy is as fake as a person could get gents, watch out for him.

[Vassago]

Well we saw what happened in Iran because of the democracy. Also do not confuse democracy with dictatorship. Democracy does not give anyone to act against the laws of the country. If you act against the laws than you have to accept the consequences. Just because of they got %40 of the votes they can not act like the country is inharited to them.

[Mastermind]

Personally, I am deeply moved by the courage of the Turks attempts to control the radicalization of their Islamic citizens and thus save their national freedoms. The more I learn about Ataturk, the more I realize he was one of the greatest men who ever lived....right up there with Washington, Bolivar and Churchill.

[Vassago]

AKP is searching everyway to prevent their end. They are thinking to change the constitution in a way that AKP could not be banned or even if it is banned that Erdoğan still may be priministar. They are not obeying the laws instead they make laws according to their needs. I fear that, if they insist on playing with constitution as they wish, the army may intervene to them.

[deli_dumrul]

*2

Recently Turkey do not act as democracy...

Well if you downgrade the issue to a headscarf, then yes we are not acting as a democracy. But it is not that simple, read vasago's translation.

Let me tell you one thing, every time these people are taken to court, do you know what they do? Change the constitution! It does not matter you have 1% or 40% of the votes, same rules apply to you.

On a side note, Nazis had support too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party#Rise_to_power:_1925-1933



At the July 1932 Reichstag election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election%2C_July_1932) the Nazis made another leap forward, polling 37.4 percent and becoming the largest party in the Reichstag by a wide margin. Furthermore, the Nazis and the KPD between them won 52 percent of the vote and a majority of seats. Since both parties opposed the established political system and neither would join or support any ministry, this made the formation of a majority government impossible. The result was weak ministries governing by decree. Under Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin)’s directives, the KPD maintained its policy of treating the SPD as the main enemy, calling them "social fascists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascist)", thereby splintering opposition to the Nazis. Later, both the SPD and the KPD accused each other of having facilitated Hitler’s rise to power by their unwillingness to compromise.

Chancellor Franz von Papen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Papen) called another Reichstag election in November, hoping to find a way out of this impasse. The result was the same, with the Nazis and the KPD winning 50 percent of the vote between them and more than half the seats, rendering this Reichstag no more workable than its predecessor. But support for the Nazis fell to 33.1 percent, suggesting that the Nazi surge had passed its peak – possibly because the worst of the Depression had passed, possibly because some middle-class voters had supported Hitler in July as a protest but had now drawn back from the prospect of actually putting him into power.


*Nothing against German people, just wanted to make my point. Sometimes, 50% vote does not mean it is the right way to go*

[oxxi]

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/jan.jnp (http://www.uploadgeek.com)http://www.uploadgeek.com/uploads456/0/jan.jnp (http://www.uploadgeek.com)

[Clearday-TRForce]

Personally, I am deeply moved by the courage of the Turks attempts to control the radicalization of their Islamic citizens and thus save their national freedoms. The more I learn about Ataturk, the more I realize he was one of the greatest men who ever lived....right up there with Washington, Bolivar and Churchill.


Absolutely right !!!

You got the point what we think. Ataturk is one of the greatest leader in the world history.

God bless your soul father. Look at this photo, great really great !!!


http://www.egesegitim.com.tr/ataturk26.jpg


"Religion is an issue of conscience. Everyone is free to conform to the commands of their conscience. We show respect for religion. We are not against a way of thinking or thoughts. We are only trying not to mix religious affairs with the affairs of the nation and the state."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"The humankind is consisted of two sexes, woman and man. Is it possible that a mass is improved by the improvement of only one part and ignore other? Is it possible that if half of a mass is tied to earth with chains and the other half can soar into skies?"
-- M.K. Atatürk

"Mankind is a single body and each nation a part of that body. We must never say 'What does it matter to me if some part of the world is ailing?' If there is such an illness, we must concern ourselves with it as though we were having that illness."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"I am convinced that the exercise of social and political rights by women is necessary for mankind's happiness and pride. You can rest assured that Turkish women together with world`s women will work towards world peace and security."
-- M.K. Atatürk - 22 April 1935

"This nation has never lived without independence. We cannot and shall not live without it. Either independence or death."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"If war were to break out, nations would rush to join their armed forces and national resources. The swiftest and most effective measure is to establish an international organization which would prove to the aggressor that its aggression cannot pay."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"Everything we see in the world is the creative work of women."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"Unless the life of the nation faces peril, war is a crime."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"Peace at Home, Peace in the World."
-- M.K. Atatürk

"The death of Atatürk, who had saved Turkey during the war and revived the Turkish Nation after the war, is a great loss, not only for his country, but also for Europe as well."
-- Sir Winston Churchill

"My sorrow is that, there is no more possibility to fulfil my strong wish about the meeting with this man."
-- Franklin D.ROOSEVELT



Iran is the best real-world test of this hypothesis right now. A quarter century after the Khomeini revolution, Iran seems to be stuck in some indeterminate middle state. The forces of bottom-up secular democratic reform and top-down mullah control may be stalemated simply because there is no common ground whatsoever between their contending visions.

But there is no Ataturk in Iraq,Iran,Malesia,Endonozia,Suudi Arabia,......vs


regards,
CDTRF

[Rictor]

But it wasn't even Ataturk who banned head-scarves in universities. That's a recent decision, taken after the military coup in the 80s.

Why not put the matter to a simple referendum? Let the people decide for themselves.

[Vassago]

Actually they can not put it to a referandum. The headscarf is banned because it has become the symbol of antisecularism. According to the Turkish constitution laws can not be changed in a way against secularism.

[Rictor]

Then we obviously have different definitions of the word "democracy". In my mind, democracy means that the people get what the people want. And besides, who determines whether a particular item is "anti-secular", and to what extent? A judge? The parliament? A special committee of ministers? The entire definition of the topic we are discussing is subjective.

And you still haven't addressed the fact that the law is a recent law, not an integral part of the constitution. Was the government back then made up of smarter, wiser, better people, who had some special gift for determining right from wrong?

[4X4Driver]

Then we obviously have different definitions of the word "democracy". In my mind, democracy means that the people get what the people want.

Yes..in a society were it can be easly manuplated with religion, it is more fragile and it takes some extra efforts to protect it. While we're at it, let me ask you this then; Do you acknowledge the Hamas' way of coming to power and what they're doing with the sytem that brought them to power? do you think they'll allow anyone else come to power in the same manner as they once did?


And besides, who determines whether a particular item is "anti-secular", and to what extent? A judge? The parliament? A special committee of ministers? The entire definition of the topic we are discussing is subjective.

It is their actions which often doesn't make it to the international media...it's the teachings of their religious sects that makes them danger for the secular Turkey...don't need no higher authority to decide for such thing when they're openly demanding more religious regime.


And you still haven't addressed the fact that the law is a recent law, not an integral part of the constitution. Was the government back then made up of smarter, wiser, better people, who had some special gift for determining right from wrong?

Correct...it was never a law in the const. against the headscarf...and still isn't. Since these people couldn't take a job in the secular inst. of the country anyways, the universities didn't want take them...it was their rule and not const. law.

[4X4Driver]

Personally, I am deeply moved by the courage of the Turks attempts to control the radicalization of their Islamic citizens and thus save their national freedoms. The more I learn about Ataturk, the more I realize he was one of the greatest men who ever lived....right up there with Washington, Bolivar and Churchill.

Mastermind, I personally appreciate your appreciation of a man like Ataturk. I agree that Washington, Bolivar and Churchill were great men also, but if you consider what Ataturk had in his hands as a society almost a 90 years ago...and if you consider the resistence the Islamic world/countries showing today to adobt only the half...or even only the few of the things he did for Turkey...I think we'd understand how visionary he was and appreciate him even more.

ONLY the situation of these countries should show us how hard we should defend what we have in Turkey...it might not be on the same level as the western democracies, but its people are trying to defend and develop what Ataturk started for them.

[deli_dumrul]

Yes..in a society were it can be easly manuplated with religion, it is more fragile and it takes some extra efforts to protect it.

It just blows my mind how history just repeats itself. Have a look at this, people criticizing our democracy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Mustafa_Kemal_golden_scoop_political_caricature_of_single_party_system.png


Mustafa Kemal, being the leader of the single-party state, had the final say on who could be listed for the party ballot. A political satire cartoon of that period depicts him as he shakes the "golden scoop of Kemal"What he was actually doing was protecting the young republic using a single party system, while established countries like Germany and Italy were electing Nazis or being ousted by fascists like Mussolini.

The Army had to act similarly during the Cold War too.

We gotta do what we have to do as usual. Nothing new here, move on. p-)

[4X4Driver]

It just blows my mind how history just repeats itself. Have a look at this, people criticizing our democracy

Mine too...but I can't blame them. They have no idea about how balanced the things are in Turkey. Not many knew this side of Turkey untill recently...and it is difficult to understand the "Muslim, but secular" concept...after all..it is one of a kind...thanks to the great visionary man.

[Vassago]

Rictor, the antisecularism of headscarf is not dediced at one night. The decision is the consequences of some events. Let me give you an example; If head-scarf is just a tool of religion then how can we explain the headscarf fashion? Yes people are organising headscarf fahion shows in Turkiye and most of the VIP seats are taken by the wifes of the governments people. Can you imagine a fashion show in that different styles of nun or priest dresses are shown? By the way last month Erdoğan has accepted that he sees headscarf as a political symbol.

Also do you know that so-called muslims are acusing women not wearing headscarf with not being muslim? Do you know that the government admitted that businnes men whos wifes wearing headscarf are more likely to win the public contracts?

[Clearday-TRForce]

The chief prosecutor has done a good job on that and collected quite many quotes from AKP leaders, and especially Mr. Erdoğan. These quotes, he thinks, are enough to prove that this party is anti-secular and thus deserves eradication.

Such as look at latest Ilhan Selcuk case !!!

The only thing that can be said here is treating a 83-year old man whose health situation just started to get better as a terrorist deeply saddened me !!! he is the master writer of Cumhuriyet...why?

[Ulytau]

What kind of democracy people wish or CAPITAL :) ?

Hot,cold,with olive or sauce ?

Especially who love insultin to us or some news which shows clearly point of view about Islam totally changin about AKP issue interesting isnt it?

Also its not about headscarf issue too and there was no problem until 90s..Until some people using it for their own interests.Also where was the great democrats at 80s?When Turkiye have seriously left wave?

Especially after this issue Gerhard Schröder comments make me sick he was INSULTING to Judgment..Oh true it was only about democracy NOT ABOUT GAZPROM AND HIS OWN INTERESTS..

Also where was the this democracy lovers about Muhammed Musaddik ''Iranian PM elected with democratic election also he won aganist Shah too'' only was interest to use Iranian oil for his country and people..

Or about Salvador Allende..

About closing party i dont support this but there must be a warn also my personal idea still there must be serious meeting with parties,army,profs etc..We didnt seen any reaction at Ilhan Selcuk issue too he was journalist and i'm sure he dont have any ties with organizations but where is the freedom of speech guys?

We didnt seen this so called democracy about Bahriye Ucok''RIP' or Uğur Mumcu ''RIP''

Some infos about them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahriye_%C3%9C%C3%A7ok

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C4%9Fur_Mumcu

I am muslim myself too but my ancestors still stayed who tryin to use Islam for their own interests..

Like Muaviye and Yezit ''Yezit is the insult in Turkish he was the Muaviyes son,his father declared himself as a Caliph after Hz.Ali''

People will ask this why you saying this its all about historical background guys..About historical memories..

But which makes you angry this issue in our country but some DEMOCRACY LOVERS WHO DONT CARE THEIR OWN INTERESTS always tryin to be part of about some issues..Especially they tried to be part of when we chosing our General Staff,Turks give biggest answer to them with claim Yaşar Büyükanit.

About closing party its really long process for party making ready their defence..

[Vassago]

I think the reason of the western members do not getting the situation is their media. Look at the topics about the false statements of the western media about China. They are so ruthless that they can simply show scenes from another countries and say people that it is China.

[Peris]

Absolutely right !!!

You got the point what we think. Ataturk is one of the greatest leader in the world history.

God bless your soul father. Look at this photo, great really great !!!


http://www.egesegitim.com.tr/ataturk26.jpg


regards,
CDTRF




it would be nice to publish the memoirs of Ataturks wife so we could find more Ataturk quotes.:)


Ataturk diaries to remain secret


Turkish officials have decided against making public the letters and diaries of the wife of modern Turkey's revered founding father Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.


The issue over Latife Usakligil's documents had been hotly debated in the Turkish media as a 1980 court ban on their publication drew to an end.
Some Turks argued that the works would shed a more personal light on Ataturk and his short-lived marriage.
But others feared it might tarnish his image as a national hero.
The head of the Turkish History Foundation said Latife Usakligil's family have demanded that the documents continue to be kept secret.
"The issue is over. It is impossible for us now to release them," Yusuf Halacoglu told Anatolia news agency.

The decision not to release the letters and diaries is a relief to those who feared they would be used to tarnish Ataturk's image.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4235691.stm

[Ulytau]

Do you want to know about Latife Usakligils house;

She bought a house cause there was a Ataturk statue which was really lookin like Ataturk..

It will be enough answer about Latife Usakligil and Ataturk i think..

[Peris]

also i would like to point that this kind of hysteria towards a dead leader is unnatural. Remember some citizens of some totalitarian state far east?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zYsUqAYg6c



not comparing North Koreans and Turks but some obsession about the dead leader is there too.

[Peris]

Do you want to know about Latife Usakligils house;

She bought a house cause there was a Ataturk statue which was really lookin like Ataturk..

It will be enough answer about Latife Usakligil and Ataturk i think..



it's not the time or place to discuss the private life of Ataturk, might offend you and it's not our topic. But the issue is that a state decides posthoumusly to classify a statesman's private life by fear that the details will ruin his image.

[Ulytau]

it's not the time or place to discuss the private life of Ataturk, might offend you and it's not our topic. But the issue is that a state decides posthoumusly to classify a statesman's private life by fear that the details will ruin his image.

I had chance about hearin about this issues from Latife Usakligil and his relatives etc mate :)

Have enough documents for answerin about humors too..

Funny thing there is same things to

Churcill,Venizelos,Ghandi etc..

Interestin isnt it?

[Peris]

I had chance about hearin about this issues from Latife Usakligil and his relatives etc mate :)

Have enough documents for answerin about humors too..

Funny thing there is same things to

Churcill,Venizelos,Ghandi etc..

Interestin isnt it?


the difference is that neither UK, Greece or India banned any diaries about their private lives. p-)nothing will change in the UK if someone writes something bad about Churcill. Try this in Turkey with Kemal and you are in trouble.

[Ulytau]

the difference is that neither UK, Greece or India banned any diaries about their private lifes. p-)

Still there is book about life of Latife Usakligil and feature with her toop-)

Or Atatürk and his loves p-)

About Ataturk he is national leader of Turkiye..Still we know very well about who havin problem with him..

Funny thing this words are totally same with

Still who have Megali idea

PKK terror..

Or extremists..

So interestin mate..

[Peris]

i advise to go back to the original topic. I ask: if the Turkish people in a majority of 99% wake up one day and say ,we want an Islamic state will the army intervene to save the secular state?

[Peris]

[quote=Ulytau;3137367]

About Ataturk he is national leader of Turkiye..Still we know very well about who havin problem with him..

quote]



maby you mean the Germans because a German publishing house i read it will publish the Latife's memoirs this year.:)

seriously now i have a book about Kemal doings in Asia Minor which is called:'' My weapon is the gallows tree'' and is based on the foreign diplomatic archives. if you are not a natural born serial killer and you read it, you will have a problem with Kemal called a great leader too.

btw another book on the same subject with Kemal's quote as title:

http://www.aihgs.com/images/haris.gif

[Ulytau]

i advise to go back to the original topic. I ask: if the Turkish people in a majority of 99% wake up one day and say ,we want an Islamic state will the army intervene to save the secular state?

Maybe without knowin about Turkiye sayin similar things also when we showed documents enough lets turn to topic..

Okay than..

Also we know enough about people of Anatolia and they are the majority..About myself i have no problem with my religion i know many people who gave vote to AKP and they have no problem with secularism..It was serious warn from law court also we dont speakin about army there too right?

Easy to see how they making propaganda about us ''Turks'' still same politics..

25 years ago we gonna be commie..Today Islamist..

So interesting

About what Ataturk did

Funny thing there is some publishes too..

About some information services and who supported them ;)

In Menemen and Tunceli

And today Pontos issue

First about Pontos it founded from a Persian..

About my ancestors they are from Black Sea region and they seen enough think but especially after Armenian issue and European Union this word been funniest thing and deputies were laughin when they voting about it..

Easy to see about ur aim and topic lol

[Peris]

Maybe without knowin about Turkiye sayin similar things also when we showed documents enough lets turn to topic..

Okay than..

Also we know enough about people of Anatolia and they are the majority..About myself i have no problem with my religion i know many people who gave vote to AKP and they have no problem with secularism..It was serious warn from law court also we dont speakin about army there too right?

Easy to see how they making propaganda about us ''Turks'' still same politics..

25 years ago we gonna be commie..Today Islamist..

So interesting

About what Ataturk did

Funny thing there is some publishes too..

About some information services and who supported them ;)

In Menemen and Tunceli




my question is does the free will of the majority decides the political future of Turkey or a judge and a general? In our consitution for example says the the root of everything it's the people's wish and people's sovereingnty.

[4X4Driver]

i advise to go back to the original topic.

You first try to bring in his two year short marriage life into the thread for some reason and advise those who responses to you to go back to original topic...???:roll:

We all know Greeks hates him and why. So..no matter how hard you try to show your disrespect for him, he did lots of good for Turkey....that'll never change ;)

[Peris]

About some information services and who supported them ;)
In Menemen and Tunceli
topic lol


could you explain Menemen and Tunceli? what happened?

[Ulytau]

my question is does the free will of the majority decides the political future of Turkey or a judge and a general? In our consitution for example says the the root of everything it's the people's wish and people's sovereingnty.

About political future so there was a good thing it will change nobody will say anything about it..

But we are totally aganist some dreams..

Cause we will never forget when people called enemy armies as a Caliph armies and who called Turkish army as an infidel army..

But Turkish Villagers seen truth when this armies reach to their village..


There is no problem when my people loosin their life..There is no problem when civizilation killin them but when we won there is problem..

I know about some deputies about what they saying..

About Hagia Sophia,Istanbul,Izmir or other regions..

If people trustin their archives we invited them to Lahey..Why they didnt accept than?

[Peris]

You first try to bring in his two year short marriage life into the thread...for some reason and advice those who responses to you to go back to original topic...???:roll:

We all know Greeks hates him and why. So..no matter how hard you try to show your disrespect for him, he did lots of good for Turkey....that'll never change ;)


he made a lots of damage to Turkey too. You still pay his actions today if you follow me.

[Peris]

About political future so there was a good thing it will change nobody will say anything about it..

But we are totally aganist some dreams..

Cause we will never forget when people called enemy armies as a Caliph armies and who called Turkish army as an infidel army..

But Turkish Villagers seen truth when this armies reach to their village..


There is no problem when my people loosin their life..There is no problem when civizilation killin them but when we won there is problem..

I know about some deputies about what they saying..

About Hagia Sophia,Istanbul,Izmir or other regions..

If people trustin their archives we invited them to Lahey..Why they didnt accept than?



not sure i follow you:roll:

[Ulytau]

could you explain Menemen and Tunceli? what happened?

Tunceli

Shekh Said a group attacked to Turkish forces..It was after Mosul issue and so interesting right?

and i think you can imagine about their destiny after this..

Menemen..

A group attacked to Turkish soldiers again cut a soldiers head..Still you can imagine about their destiny..

Today we know who supported them about Aegan Issue and lands..


I am not aganist critize some issues also aganist to who using Ataturk for racism or other issues..

Cause i know about Ataturks and Venizeloss friendship

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=2046

Lets check who nominated Ataturk for NOBEL PEACE PRICE.

Good Night all

PS : I Feel so tired sorry if i did mistake too..

[4X4Driver]

In our consitution for example says the the root of everything it's the people's wish and people's sovereingnty.

Your const. is also not secular. Greek orthodox church has a lot of power in the Greek politics...

In Turkey, religion has/had no role in state politics...at least it didn't until the recent gov't started using religion to win votes and started shaping country's future according to Islam. State pros. has a power to complain to const. court for this kind of move of the gov't.

[Peris]

Tunceli

Shekh Said a group who tried to religion and attacked to Turkish forces..It was after Mosul issue and so interesting right?

and i think you can imagine about their destiny after this..

Menemen..

A group attacked to Turkish soldiers again cut a soldiers head..Still you can imagine about their destiny..

Today we know who supported them about Aegan Issue and lands..


I am not aganist critize some issues also aganist to who using Ataturk for racism or other issues..

Cause i know about Ataturks and Venizeloss friendship

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=2046

Lets check who nominated Ataturk for NOBEL PEACE PRICE.

Good Night all



now we Greeks support religious groups against Turkey?:roll: i thought that it was the Turks who train Albanians for future action inside Greece and this trainig=ng done under an official military agreement.


As for the Nobel prize Venizelos and the Nobel prize you are right. No wonder how many Greeks consider Venizelos a big traitor :


The political climate became more tense, and in 1933 Venizelos was the target of a second assassination attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleftherios_Venizelos

[Peris]

[quote=4X4Driver;3137433]Your const. is also not secular. Greek orthodox church has a lot of power in the Greek politics...
quote]


the Greek orthodox religion is reffered to our constitution as being the choice of the MAJORITY and for honoring the battles of the church to save the nation. Full religious tolerance is guaranteed and that's why we have about 500 various religions acting here from 12 Olympian Gods followers to Bahai.

[4X4Driver]

now we Greeks support religious groups against Turkey?:roll:

I think Ulytau is talking about the use of Islamic fundementalists against Atatürk's forces during the Greek invasion of Turkey.


i thought that it was the Turks who train Albanians for future action inside Greece and this trainig=ng done under an official military agreement.

yes..it's a part of NATO program...talk about paranoia :roll:



As for the Nobel prize Venizelos and the Nobel prize you are right. No wonder how many Greeks consider Venizelos a big traitor :


The political climate became more tense, and in 1933 Venizelos was the target of a second assassination attempt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleftherios_Venizelos

I think the anger against him was due to the loss of the war against Atatürk.

[4X4Driver]

[quote=4X4Driver;3137433]Your const. is also not secular. Greek orthodox church has a lot of power in the Greek politics...
quote]


[quote]the Greek orthodox religion is reffered to our constitution as being the choice of the MAJORITY

True...When a state refers to one religion in a const. that state can not be called secular. I'm not sure, but I think even priests can govern the state in Greece if they were to run in the elections ( it happened in Cyprus)



Full religious tolerance is guaranteed and that's why we have about 500 various religions acting here from 12 Olympian Gods followers to Bahai.

Well...sorry, but this is not all that true..:-(


RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE IN GREECE

Laws restricting freedom of religion were passed in Greece in 1938 and have never been repealed. 1 One requires that anyone wishing to operate a place of worship must first obtain two permits: one from the Ministry of Education and Religious Affairs, and the other from the local bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_greec.htm

[Ulytau]

I think Ulytau is talking about the use of Islamic fundementalists against Atatürk's forces during the Greek invasion of Turkey.

Sorry just wake up and need to be fast..

About Kubilay issue and Menemen bro..Normally same thing they tried to use religion for beein problem to young republic but their aim was different.. :)

Take Care all :D

[Peris]

[quote=Peris;3137468][quote=4X4Driver;3137433]Your const. is also not secular. Greek orthodox church has a lot of power in the Greek politics...
quote]

True...When a state refers to one religion in a const. that state can not be called secular. I'm not sure, but I think even priests can govern the state in Greece if they were to run in the elections ( it happened in Cyprus)

Well...sorry, but this is not all that true..:-(

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rt_greec.htm



i could discuss it further with you about our constitution - you will have a similar one in terms of democratic rights after 100 years, sorry to say this.

As for Greek clergy is forbiden to be elected in office.
In Cyprus it was the Turkish Sultan:) who recognised the Cypriot Archbishop as the leader of non Turkish population in 1660 and the British took over and continued this custom.

check this photo: it's a tribute to anonymous Greek clergy who went to the mountains like guerillas to fight the Germans in ww2. Your secular Turkey declared war against Germans some days before the war ends. :)




http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/720/hpim0449rg2.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hpim0449rg2.jpg)

[4X4Driver]

[quote=4X4Driver;3137613][quote=Peris;3137468]


i could discuss it further with you about our constitution - you will have a similar one in terms of democratic rights after 100 years, sorry to say this.

No thanks mate...I'd rather to have a secular const. and keep the religion out of state affairs...things gets messed up when religion is involved in such things. :)


As for Greek clergy is forbiden to be elected in office.
In Cyprus it was the Turkish Sultan:) who recognised the Cypriot Archbishop as the leader of non Turkish population in 1660 and the British took over and continued this custom.

It's good to hear that the Ottomans were pretty fair with the Greek Cypriots.


check this photo: it's a tribute to anonymous Greek clergy who went to the mountains like guerillas to fight the Germans in ww2. Your secular Turkey declared war against Germans some days before the war ends. :)


Good...good. We also had Muslim clerics on Ataturk's side against the invading Greek forces too, but that never ment that they should be awarded with having power in the rule of the secular republic.

[Ulytau]

Topic turned to WW2? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F

[Peris]

[quote=4X4Driver;3137613]

It's good to hear that the Ottomans were pretty fair with the Greek Cypriots.

.

yes they were fair :)

Between 1572 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1572) and 1668 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1668) AD about 28 bloody uprisings took place on the island and in many of these both Greeks and Turks woot(poor Turks were also exploited by the ruling class) took part. But all of them ended in failure.

The Sultan afterwards gave the right to Archbishop to be named as representative only to calm things. As you see the right was won with blood.

[Peris]

Topic turned to WW2? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Kurtulu%C5%9F


a good gesture ofcourse but does not equal things.

how do call someone who punches a guy already down beaten up by other guys? that's what you did in WW2

[4X4Driver]

a good gesture ofcourse but does not equal things.

how do call someone who punches a guy already down beaten up by other guys? that's what you did in WW2

Actually, the reason was not as childish as you think. It was " a necessary precondition for participation in the Conference on International Organization, held in San Francisco in April 1945, from which the United Nations (UN) emerged. Turkey thereby became one of the fifty-one original members of the world organization."

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/ww2timeline/turkey.html

So...if you're done with your off topic rant, can we go back to banning of the Islamic party of Turkey now??

Thanks :)

[Ulytau]

a good gesture ofcourse but does not equal things.

how do call someone who punches a guy already down beaten up by other guys? that's what you did in WW2

Lol..

Also Turkiye said to Bulgaria if you guys attack to Greece Turkiye gonna declare war to Bulgaria..

Just another thing..

You knew about Stalin idea about Turkiye i think also Greece naturally joined to war cause Axis forces invaded Greece..

Ismet Inonu continued a balance policy cause he seen what is the war before..

This memory from Cairo Lecture..

Inonu says to Churcill if Germans attack to Istanbul with incendiary bomb all of city will burn..

Churcill says ; there is no problem 1.5 fleet war plane will be enough for covering Istanbul..

So Inonu with changin subject askin to Churcill ''Here is really very hot,very much soldiers coverin this place ah..

Churcill : Oh!Not speak like that we cannot trust to Germans they will came from Crete and will bomb here so we have 10.000 soldiers and 20 fleet war plane..

Inonu smiles and says you coverin a little place ''nearly like a pitch'' with 10.000 soldiers and 20 fleet war planes how you will cover Istanbul with 1.5 fleet war plane..

Roosevelt : You got catched Churcill..


Honestly hard to understand who were..

Sometimes beeing zionist other day beein nazi just another day beeing extremist..Also you said urself about turnin to topic but you changed topic mate..

Easy to see your ideas also what u thinkin cause we seen about PKK issue before too..So dont imply somethings p-)


About this issue..

Abdullah Gul did serious meeting with CHP and MHP leaders just listened Deniz Baykal from news its looking like it was really good meeting and useful too..

But problem is they ate ''Kayseri Manti'' pic can seen from this link http://wowturkey.com/tr95/k_Nese_Demirhan_kayseri_mantisi.jpg (http://wowturkey.com/tr95/k_Nese_Demirhan_kayseri_mantisi.jpg)

if they dont wanna gimme or invite me for manti gonna start unrest soon rofl

[Vassago]

Lets get beack to the topic shall we?

There is something that i dont understand, for example Greek friends seem to be unhappy by the move against AKP. I understand their thoughts about democracy but i think they forget something. A great percentage of these anti-secular islamists are living with the dream of Ottoman empire. If Turkiye becomes an Islamic country i bet it wont take long to attack Greece to recover the Ottoman lands. Dont get me wrong i am not saying something like "we would crush you in war" but i am sure that no Greek would like the idea of a radicalic Islam force attacking their country.

[deli_dumrul]

Lets get beack to the topic shall we?

There is something that i dont understand, for example Greek friends seem to be unhappy by the move against AKP. I understand their thoughts about democracy but i think they forget something. A great percentage of these anti-secular islamists are living with the dream of Ottoman empire. If Turkiye becomes an Islamic country i bet it wont take long to attack Greece to recover the Ottoman lands. Dont get me wrong i am not saying something like "we would crush you in war" but i am sure that no Greek would like the idea of a radicalic Islam force attacking their country.

I think you are missing another aspect. In a recent poll, 75% of the Turkish people reported that they support the current policy towards Greece. (Sorry could not find link)

Believing that AKP (or any other party) is going to compromise in its bid to join EU, that's just naive.

Knowing the Turks realize (finally) where Turkey's future is, priceless.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=az3mrvNAaUFY&refer=europe

[Ulytau]

Also my personal idea its wasnt about only this issue too..

They tried to show themselves as a poor etc..

Still when there is Deniz Baykal we will see many issues like it too lol rofl

[Peris]

Lets get beack to the topic shall we?

There is something that i dont understand, for example Greek friends seem to be unhappy by the move against AKP. I understand their thoughts about democracy but i think they forget something. A great percentage of these anti-secular islamists are living with the dream of Ottoman empire. If Turkiye becomes an Islamic country i bet it wont take long to attack Greece to recover the Ottoman lands. Dont get me wrong i am not saying something like "we would crush you in war" but i am sure that no Greek would like the idea of a radicalic Islam force attacking their country.


The discussion is mainly academic and related to the functions of a govt.
When we talk about Greek Turkish relations and possible escalation we should remember that the Cyprus invasion and other incidents happened with the Turkish secular govt. As for the Ottoman mentality of the all mighty empire is still present to many Turkish officials. As for a radical Islamist Turkey attacking to our country what's the difference with secular Turkey attacking Greece? Now if you tell me that the secular govt is supporting a policy of friendship towards Greece i will tell you that the Turkish policy in the critical issues is the same. The so called Greek -Turkish friendship much publicised in Greek and Turksih media will vanish when the next military crisis erupts. The Greeks and Turks as individuals can have the best time and hope nothing will happened but there are a lot of issues that divide the two countries. We see relatives killing each other for property,think what happens in a war like situation when countries have territorial disputes.

This doesn't mean we should not try to get along and be civil. I think we are both enclosed due to the past conflicts and the past events.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Public prosecutor's case about closing AKP (government) accepted by the Supreme Constitutional Court.




regards,
CDTRF

[Peris]

Public prosecutor's case about closing AKP (government) accepted by the Supreme Constitutional Court.


regards,
CDTRF


tnx for the info.

what's the procedure after this?

[Clearday-TRForce]

tnx for the info.

what's the procedure after this?


According to the legal procedure now AKP will make a preliminary defence, and this will be sent to the Supreme Court of Appeals Chief Prosecutor's Office.

The constitutional court will examine the charges, launching a legal battle that will last for many months.

After the Chief Prosecutor states his views on the merits of the case, AKP will make a verbal defense in a month's time. This will be followed by verbal statements of the Chief Prosecutor.

Later the *******eur assigned by the Constitutional Court will prepare his/her report on the merits of the case. In this phase, the Chief Prosecutor can submit further evidence and AKP can submit additional defence material to the *******eur.

Then *******eur's report will be distributed to court members. Later Constitutional Court Chief Judge Hasim Kilic will set a date and the court will start seeing the case on its merits.

If AKP demands extra time for its defence, the court will also assess these demands. According to the Constitution, at least 7 of the 11 members of the court have to vote for closure in order for the court to shut down a political party.

[multani]

Lets get beack to the topic shall we?

There is something that i dont understand, for example Greek friends seem to be unhappy by the move against AKP. I understand their thoughts about democracy but i think they forget something. A great percentage of these anti-secular islamists are living with the dream of Ottoman empire. If Turkiye becomes an Islamic country i bet it wont take long to attack Greece to recover the Ottoman lands. Dont get me wrong i am not saying something like "we would crush you in war" but i am sure that no Greek would like the idea of a radicalic Islam force attacking their country.

This sounds more like a conspiracy theory than something handhold. I don't think they want to get Ottoman empire and conquer their old land again, unless u have some evidance...

[Clearday-TRForce]

I don't find a sense when I see the message like below (also quoted one). The matter that we discuss is to protect secularism. There is no desire to be an empire, it was an ex-work stuff. Some people in Turkey feels that the government has got a secret agenda using democracy, also prosecutor of Republic thinks same. That is it. Don't produce more conspiracies...

If you want to talk about an enemy,Ottoman can not be good one for Greece but the current modern army can be more dangerous for them due to high-level ability-capibility. But surely it is not on table.

Greeks are our friends, you can accept or not, we think that at least.

[multani]

Well, the sense of my message was to ask on what Vassagos claim was baseing on.

[koalorka]

I support the Islamic radicalization of Turkey, even a better reason to keep them the hell out of the EU.

[Clearday-TRForce]

I support the Islamic radicalization of Turkey, even a better reason to keep them the hell out of the EU.


I support you must be out of all,even Canada.

[chris450]

Lets get beack to the topic shall we?

There is something that i dont understand, for example Greek friends seem to be unhappy by the move against AKP. I understand their thoughts about democracy but i think they forget something. A great percentage of these anti-secular islamists are living with the dream of Ottoman empire. If Turkiye becomes an Islamic country i bet it wont take long to attack Greece to recover the Ottoman lands. Dont get me wrong i am not saying something like "we would crush you in war" but i am sure that no Greek would like the idea of a radicalic Islam force attacking their country.

no Greek would like the idea on a non-"radical Islam" force attacking his country either..its not like the Kemalist model is any less agressive or negotiable

for us the difference is inexistent,same goals different ideological cloak..as far as i am concerned Turkey can take any path its citizens chooce in free will..as long as it involves the notion "stay on your side of the border"

Fetulah Islam is getting stronger by the day with the blessings of uncle Sam( they want to propose it as the new wave Islam..) but my Kemalist friends are looking for support in this internal struggle in the wrong direction

[koalorka]

I support you must be out of all,even Canada.

I support Kurdish emancipation. Does the PKK accept PayPal donations?

[multani]

I support Kurdish emancipation. Does the PKK accept PayPal donations?

I doubt they even know what paypal is...


no Greek would like the idea on a non-"radical Islam" force attacking his country either..its not like the Kemalist model is any less agressive or negotiable

for us the difference is inexistent,same goals different ideological cloak..as far as i am concerned Turkey can take any path its citizens chooce in free will..as long as it involves the notion "stay on your side of the border"

Fetulah Islam is getting stronger by the day with the blessings of uncle Sam( they want to propose it as the new wave Islam..) but my Kemalist friends are looking for support in this internal struggle in the wrong direction

What has the Gulen Movement to do with Uncle Sam? Are u claiming they get suport from the american gov.?

[chris450]

Fetulah Gulen (ie the mentor of all Erbakan wanabees) has been living in the States for several years...his "schools" (moderate islam) have spread from Mozambike to the ex Soviet states ,sponsored by the US as an paradigm of moderate islam ,or as it should be according to Washington planning

i am not "claiming" anything,this is widely known,no news there i'm surprised you hear it for the first time

[multani]

Fetulah Gulen (ie the mentor of all Erbakan wanabees) has been living in the States for several years...his "schools" (moderate islam) have spread from Mozambike to the ex Soviet states ,sponsored by the US as an paradigm of moderate islam ,or as it should be according to Washington planning

i am not "claiming" anything,this is widely known,no news there i'm surprised you hear it for the first time

Actually I heard it a lot of times before, but I was just hopeing u could give me some facts about it and not just some rumors.
Well, there is another "widely known" version of this Story. Lots of Volunteers helping this movement financially and practically all over the world (predominantly Turks). These are the people who see this movement getting the money and don't see the Results, asking: Where does the Money flow to? The other Group sees the Result (esp. the schools) but don't see where they get the money and ask: Where does the Money come from?
Actually, these two groups answer themselves with these questions.

[chris450]

Actually I heard it a lot of times before, but I was just hopeing u could give me some facts about it and not just some rumors.
Well, there is another "widely known" version of this Story. Lots of Volunteers helping this movement financially and practically all over the world (predominantly Turks). These are the people who see this movement getting the money and don't see the Results, asking: Where does the Money flow to? The other Group sees the Result (esp. the schools) but don't see where they get the money and ask: Where does the Money come from?
Actually, these two groups answer themselves with these questions.

so we do have fetulahci here lol ,fine with me mate :)

aint getting involved in this (its none of my business i reckon,its between the Turks),and i dont have the time (nor the interest to be honest with you) to engage in debate of Gulens finances or motives ,but its widely documented ,the non-AKPsympathisers of this thread will be glad to provide more information on this (if they want ofcourse p-))

I think we'll both agree that he is the most loved and protected islamist in the West,and a red cloth for Kemalists back in Turkey...

[4X4Driver]

so we do have fetulahci here lol ,fine with me mate :)

aint getting involved in this (its none of my business i reckon,its between the Turks),and i dont have the time (nor the interest to be honest with you) to engage in debate of Gulens finances or motives ,but its widely documented ,the non-AKPsympathisers of this thread will be glad to provide more information on this (if they want ofcourse p-))

I think we'll both agree that he is the most loved and protected islamist in the West,and a red cloth for Kemalists back in Turkey...

You're 100% correct about Gülen movement Chris. The reason he has managed to attrack attention in US (also in EU) is that; he tells the things the westerners wants to hear (i.e being religious but moderate muslim). Since most of the western countries believes Turkey's secularism is too strict (and protected by the military) they like his version better. But the version he tells to his followers in the gatherings is totaly different than the version he preaches to the western world. Altough he has some hardcore followers in his org. he has also managed to fool many in Turkey also.


In 1999, footage was aired on Turkish television of sermons delivered by Fethullah Gulen to a crowd of followers, in which he revealed his aspirations for an Islamist Turkey ruled by shari'a as well as the methods that should be used to attain that goal. In the sermons, he said:


"You must move in the arteries of the system, without anyone noticing your existence, until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe, they [the followers] must continue like this. If they do something prematurely, the world will crush our heads, and Muslims will suffer everywhere, like in the tragedies in Algeria, like in 1982 [in] Syria… like in the yearly disasters and tragedies in Egypt. The time is not yet right. You must wait for the time when you are complete, and conditions are ripe, until we can shoulder the entire world and carry it… You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey… Until that time, any step taken would be too early - like breaking an egg without waiting the full 40 days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside. The work to be done is [in] confronting the world. Now, I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to you all - in confidence… trusting your loyalty and sensitivity to secrecy. I know that when you leave here - [just] as you discard your empty juice boxes, you must discard the thoughts and feelings expressed here."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019430.php

Here is the video of the things he said above..unfortunatelly only in Turkish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi3Z3qZ7Z4

[Rictor]

I've been doing a bit of reading, and it seems there's quite a history of banning political parties over the past 20-30 years. Whenever a non-establishment party becomes popular enough to start implementing an agenda, the courts can be counted on to slap it with a ban.

If that happened so repeatedly in, say, Holland or Spain, people would be screaming bloody murder. Well, whatever - to each his own.

[multani]

so we do have fetulahci here lol ,fine with me mate :)

Hehe, do i realy sound like that? :roll:

I'm just in search of some truth baseing on facts. Seen many debates in other forums about this matter. Mostly, the Debaters are getting aggressive and throwing insults at each other back and forth. Its hard to get objective insider informations anymore. Whatever...



I think we'll both agree that he is the most loved and protected islamist in the West,and a red cloth for Kemalists back in Turkey...

Yah i know that, and thats the point. I only see blind hatred against them. I know of the so-called "casset scandals" which turned out to be fakes or speeches taken out of context. Actually, this makes me curious...

[oxxi]

Fethullah Guven=Abdullah Ocalan
why?
well, one is a ethnic extremist and the other is a religious extremist, so NO i dont see a difference.

AKP is bringing Turkey to its knees, the country is in a economic crisis, not to mention the growing tensions among the modern secular majority and arab lover minority.
Turkey is suffering HELL from this presidency, army should intervene and at least make some noise but ofcourse Buyukanit is another issue.
He is the worst Army chief this country has seen, we need a stronger and braver secular general, along with a party that can bring back peace to Turkey's future.
So for now, Lets all do what AKP derin devlet does and kidnap some brave reporters from Cumhuriyet and ban drinking alcohol along the shores of Bosphorus. (again!)
God knows how much i hate all those "snakes" that were supposed to be leading this country into prosperity

[4X4Driver]

I've been doing a bit of reading, and it seems there's quite a history of banning political parties over the past 20-30 years.

Yes..and most of them were shut down because they've become inactive during the time by not doing political party routines.


Whenever a non-establishment party becomes popular enough to start implementing an agenda, the courts can be counted on to slap it with a ban.

...and which they happen to be Islamic agenda parties.


If that happened so repeatedly in, say, Holland or Spain, people would be screaming bloody murder. Well, whatever - to each his own.

In most of the European countries, the laws don't even allow Islamic political parties to be established to begin with..I wish our laws were as strict as yours also.

I can't help to ask...why does attempt of banning an Islamic party with a sharia agenda bothers you so much? can it be because it's in Turkey? would you like to see such party in your own country in the name of democracy?

[4X4Driver]

Hehe, do i realy sound like that? :roll:

I'm just in search of some truth baseing on facts.

If this isn't enough fact for you, than you must be a really devoted Fettullahci my friend.

In 1999, footage was aired on Turkish television of sermons delivered by Fethullah Gulen to a crowd of followers, in which he revealed his aspirations for an Islamist Turkey ruled by shari'a as well as the methods that should be used to attain that goal. In the sermons, he said:


"You must move in the arteries of the system, without anyone noticing your existence, until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe, they [the followers] must continue like this. If they do something prematurely, the world will crush our heads, and Muslims will suffer everywhere, like in the tragedies in Algeria, like in 1982 [in] Syria… like in the yearly disasters and tragedies in Egypt. The time is not yet right. You must wait for the time when you are complete, and conditions are ripe, until we can shoulder the entire world and carry it… You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey… Until that time, any step taken would be too early - like breaking an egg without waiting the full 40 days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside. The work to be done is [in] confronting the world. Now, I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to you all - in confidence… trusting your loyalty and sensitivity to secrecy. I know that when you leave here - [just] as you discard your empty juice boxes, you must discard the thoughts and feelings expressed here."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019430.php

Here is the video of the things he said above..unfortunatelly only in Turkish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNi3Z3qZ7Z4

[multani]

If this isn't enough fact for you, than you must be a really devoted Fettullahci my friend.

Devoted Fettullahci!!! Well if u don't get it, i have nothing further to say...