Muslim leaders want to curb 'Islamophobia'

[LaoSexMachine]

Muslim leaders want to curb 'Islamophobia' Summit report urges creation of 'legal instrument' against defamation
The Associated Press

DAKAR, Senegal - The Muslim world has created a battle plan to defend its religion from political cartoonists and bigots.
Concerned about what they see as a rise in the defamation of Islam, leaders of the world's Muslim nations are considering taking legal action against those that slight their religion or its sacred symbols. It was a key issue during a two-day summit that ended Friday in this western Africa capital.
The Muslim leaders are attempting to demand redress from nations like Denmark, which allowed the publication of cartoons portraying the Prophet Muhammad in 2006 and again last month, to the fury of the Muslim world.
Though the legal measures being considered have not been spelled out, the idea pits many Muslims against principles of freedom of speech enshrined in the constitutions of numerous Western governments.
"I don't think freedom of expression should mean freedom from blasphemy," said Senegal's President Abdoulaye Wade, the chairman of the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference. "There can be no freedom without limits."
Delegates were given a voluminous report by the OIC that recorded anti-Islamic speech and actions from around the world. The report concludes that Islam is under attack and that a defense must be mounted.
"Muslims are being targeted by a campaign of defamation, denigration, stereotyping, intolerance and discrimination," charged Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, the secretary general of the group.
The report urges the creation of a "legal instrument" to crack down on defamation of Islam. Some delegates point to laws in Europe criminalizing the denial of the Holocaust and other anti-Semitic rhetoric. They also point to articles within various U.N. charters that condemn discrimination based on religion and argue that these should be ramped up.
'Going through a difficult time'
"In our relation with the western world, we are going through a difficult time," Ihsanoglu told the summit's general assembly. "Islamophobia cannot be dealt with only through cultural activities but (through) a robust political engagement."
The International Humanist and Ethical Union in Geneva released a statement accusing the Islamic states of attempting to limit freedom of expression and of attempting to misuse the U.N.
Human Rights Watch said in a statement that objectionable depictions of the Prophet Muhammad do not "give them the right under international human rights law to insist that others abide by their views."
Hemayet Uddin, the lead author of the OIC report and head of cultural affairs for the group said legal action is needed because "this Islamophobia that we see in the world has gone far beyond a phobia. It is now at the level of hatred, of xenophobia, and we need to act."
A new charter drafted by the OIC commits the Muslim body "to protect and defend the true image of Islam" and "to combat the defamation of Islam."
Offensive acts posted
To protect the faith, Muslim nations have created an "observatory" that meets regularly to monitor Islamophobia. It examines lectures and workshops taking place around the world and prints a monthly record of offensive content.
But some of the summit's delegates said a legal approach would be over the top.
"My general view would be that the confrontational approach is one my country would avoid," said Bangladeshi Foreign Minister Iftekhar Chowdhruy. Bangladesh is 90 percent Muslim.
While the Muslim world worries about the image of Islam in the West, the U.S. envoy to the OIC attended the summit to try to tackle the thorny question of America's image among Muslim states.
Sada Cumber calls his campaign the "soft power" of the U.S. — an effort to find common ground with Muslim nations by championing universal values the U.S. holds dear like religious tolerance and freedom of speech.
"America has a deep respect for the religion of Islam," Cumber told The Associated Press. "The freedom of faith that we exercise, that we enjoy in America, that is also a very important aspect of the American core values. Anyone who wants to practice any faith is never stopped or discouraged."
Also during the summit, Chad and Sudan signed a peace agreement to stop incursions of rebels across each other's borders, and the summit delegates committed themselves to addressing the spiraling violence between Israelis and Palestinians.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23639629/


Two words: Bitch, please!

[msnger]

fack that! Freedom of Press do you know it?
blasphemy is exactly what freedom of speech is all about.

[Calanen]

The biggest offender as far as the defamation of Islam goes, would be Osama Bin Ladin and all who support him. Target the jihadis if you want to improve the image of the islamic world, not Danish cartoonists.

[Hilbert]

The biggest offender as far as the defamation of Islam goes, would be Osama Bin Ladin and all who support him. Target the jihadis if you want to improve the image of the islamic world, not Danish cartoonists.

My sentiments exactly, if you want to improve the image of your religion (in this case, muslims), why not start with the people who are killing innocent people, blowing themselves up, and the list goes on all for the sake of "Islam" and "Allah." Educate the children, get them to understand that how to help preserve their religion's image and not add fuel to the fire.

EDIT: And, it might also be a good idea to understand that the people preaching death to anyone who criticizes Islam isn't a good thing for public relations either; I don't know about other countries, but don't expect the U.S. to be changing the 1st Amendment to the Constitution just because some people can't handle seeing a cartoon. Shape up or ship out -- that's my philosophy.

[bryanleu2002]

after reading several books about AQ and OBL . I will say that this article is not from msnbc but from OBL.. alzwahri second in command to obl states in his book "knights under the prophret" that one of their greatest mistakes was not getting the masses (islamic) in sync.

This is their greatest blunder (admitiley) , and will ultimately lead to their doom..

[Bongopete]

I say GOOD, let them bring their out into the open and declare how opposed to western values they are. We need to have them come out and onto OUR ground and tell US what they want us to do, what they DEMAND that we do....and then we shall see what the people will stand for.

[Ought Six]

They are just taking a page from Scientology's play book. You do not have to win any of these frivious lawsuits. You just have to devote the money to file enough of them to bankrupt anyone who criticizes you, until you have terrorized everyone into silence. With a bunch of oil money behind them from their favorite oil shieks, there is no reason I can see why this tactic would not be quite successful for Islamists.

On the bright side, if they do succeed in using our own legal system to suppress our free speech, it may eventually lead to desperately needed tort reform. Stranger things have happened....

[Warlord]

These people (referring to those who attended that meeting and those of like mind) cannot smell their own sh!t.

[bryanleu2002]

They are just taking a page from Scientology's play book. You do not have to win any of these frivious lawsuits. You just have to devote the money to file enough of them to bankrupt anyone who criticizes you, until you have terrorized everyone into silence. With a bunch of oil money behind them from their favorite oil shieks, there is no reason I can see why this tactic would not be quite successful for Islamists.

On the bright side, if they do succeed in using our own legal system to suppress our free speech, it may eventually lead to desperately needed tort refenemyorm. Stranger things have happened....

Money has no enemy

You are quite wrong. They(AQ) are expecting you to do exactly what you just said... Its called "rate of return" . sure spend all your money on "fighting" "them".... this is their tactic and is a good tactic, generally speaking.. Its been done before... USSR 1979 1990 afhganistan..

Money has no enemy
Example: a few hundred thousand dollars to take down the twin towers..911

several billions(and ongoing) dollars to take down a few guys in a cave in afghanistan...

rate of return.... in you investment...

[oldsoak]

The biggest offender as far as the defamation of Islam goes, would be Osama Bin Ladin and all who support him. Target the jihadis if you want to improve the image of the islamic world, not Danish cartoonists.

- dont be silly. The way to combat those that defame Islam is to make them cower in the courts, in the streets, in public offices, in fact everywhere. The only way to counter a bad image is to force the infidel into seeing that it is a good image.

[Snoshi]

Funny thing is that many of the Muslim countries can spread hate about "Great Satan", Judaism, Christianity, but when someone in Denmark makes a cartoon of Mohamed then its suddenly a "unholy" act.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Yeah but thats different.

You know I'm lefty. I've got a muslim uncle and muslim inlaws.

But I'm starting to get pissed off with the whole deal. I'm actually getting to a point where I think the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope jointly issue a Crusade against the Middle East. **** it get Russia and China on side. Issue an ultimatum to Damascus, Tehran, Riyadh and Islamabad that states "Your got 48 hours to get the **** out of dodge or where gonna remove you ourselves"

The time has come. No more games.

[Rancid]

It's about time that Islam was declared a Terrorist organisation.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The religion itself is not a problem. Rather it's they way the religion is organized.

Church of England, Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox all have a central authority. Islam doesn't.

[khukuri]

What islamic leaders? We have no such central authority...

[helomech]

Two words: Bitch, please!


http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h278/Tallsonofagun/BitchPlease.jpg
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/b/4/8/b485254f75b24b5661d970eefcf16a64.jpg

The sh1tstirrers of Islam have distorted their religion long enough,send out some more dogs of war

[vinny_121_ND]

It's about time that Islam was declared a Terrorist organisation.

That's not a good thing to say.



Snoshi:

Funny thing is that many of the Muslim countriescan spread hate about "Great Satan", Judaism, Christianity, but when someone in Denmark makes a cartoon of Mohamed then its suddenly a "unholy" act.I agree with that. I myself, living in the lands of the 'Great Satan' is insulting to me.

[Afro-European]

What islamic leaders? We have no such central authority...

Don't you guys have Mullahs,Cheikhs and other "spiritual" leaders to whom you are held accountable? Whose words you have to blindly follow?

[3rdMillhouse]

"Muslim leaders want to curb 'Islamophobia' "

HAH, good luck with that. It'd be a good start by accepting the fact that in a democracy, that goddamned sharia is worth ****. You live in a democracy, then you abide by the rules of such democracy. Period, no arguing over that.

[Lambert58]

The sad part is that there are so many people that are ignorant to the fact that Islam has been the religion of terror for about four thousand years now.

Crack open a history book occassionally.

[Mr.Flint]

The sad part is that there are so many people that are ignorant to the fact that Islam has been the religion of terror for about four thousand years now.

Crack open a history book occassionally.huh?
where did you get the 4 thousand years?
Islam is about 1400 years old.

[FelixA9]

If they were really interested they'd stop with all the hate and intolerance speeches.

[Bongopete]

Funny thing is that many of the Muslim countries can spread hate about "Great Satan", Judaism, Christianity, but when someone in Denmark makes a cartoon of Mohamed then its suddenly a "unholy" act.


Exactly! I could even see their viewpoint if the person drawing the cartoons was IN their country (you know, when in Rome do as the Romans do)...but not when it is in a western country.

[sidman69]

they should first start off by condemning extremists instead of sitting on the sidelines.

[Ulytau]

This is from The Organisation of the Islamic Conference

First wanted give info to Snoshi normally we callin them ''Christianism,Judaism'' as a Ehl-i Kitap ''Religion which have holy book''.. I can imagine what Vahabists are thinkin they hate from us too..

I hope they didnt only speak at this Conference cause my personal idea they need to care about education,some so called leaders,tariqats who tryin to use religion for their own agenda..

Also time to speak about clashs ''sunni-shia in Iraq'',terror and other problems my personal idea they need to see about our phobias too...

Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu is really intellectual man and expert about this issues ''same for history,art etc too''

Time to be effective..

[Calanen]

I thought you might it interesting to know, that the Arab League signed on for a charter of human rights recently. This is a great thing, that should help stop 'Islamophobia' when the world comes to understand what a great commitment the Arabs in the Middle East have to human rights.

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/loas2005.html?msource=UNWDEC19001&tr=y&auid=3337655

But most importantly, this charter of Human Rights, commits the Arab league to stamp out...zionism.

Rejecting all forms of racism and Zionism, which constitute a violation of human rights and a threat to international peace and security, recognizing the close link that exists between human rights and international peace and security, reaffirming the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the provisions of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and having regard to the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam,

[3rdMillhouse]

The sad part is that there are so many people that are ignorant to the fact that Islam has been the religion of terror for about four thousand years now.

Crack open a history book occassionally.

4 thousand years???? Are you on drugs??? Read a history book once in a while. Islam was "created" sometime around 630AD. What was once a shining pinacle of progress has now declined into a hideous monster, that barely resembles it's former self.

[KB]

Think the leaders were a little slow to start to work on this initiative.

[3rdMillhouse]

Think the leaders were a little slow to start to work on this initiative.

Aye. They were.

[Abu3ale]

Common guys...its there world so let them decide how to control and live in there world..leave them in peace and they leave u in peace or the smell of black gold is so strong???

[3rdMillhouse]

Common guys...its there world so let them decide how to control and live in there world..leave them in peace and they leave u in peace or the smell of black gold is so strong???

Yeah, HAhahaha, right. Tell that to the nazis, who were left in peace and managed to conquer almost the entire western Europe in 2 years.

[Abu3ale]

Yeah, HAhahaha, right. Tell that to the nazis, who were left in peace and managed to conquer almost the entire western Europe in 2 years.
Ooouh interesting...u compare arab to the nazis???

[Calanen]

Common guys...its there world so let them decide how to control and live in there world..leave them in peace and they leave u in peace or the smell of black gold is so strong???

Yes. That has worked so very well for us until now.

It's interesting you say 'its there [sic] world.' I imagine many in the Islamic world believe, that the world is theirs. But we all have to live in it don't we. And submission of the whole world to the will of allah, for people who don't believe in allah - is going to cause a lot of problems, isn't it?

They leave us in peace huh - what a load of......

[Abu3ale]

Yes. That has worked so very well for us until now.

It's interesting you say 'its there [sic] world.' I imagine many in the Islamic world believe, that the world is theirs. But we all have to live in it don't we. And submission of the whole world to the will of allah, for people who don't believe in allah - is going to cause a lot of problems, isn't it?

They leave us in peace huh - what a load of......
Mayby u'll be surpriesed but yea i belive u SO WHAT?Jewish belive that they r the only choced people on the Earth from the God,Christians belives that who don't belive on Jesus will never be with God SO WHAT?and thousends of such examples SO WHAT???Dont tell me like ur friend that they r also like nazis!

[Abu3ale]

There r thousends of bad examples during the whole islamic history BUT we r not angels!!!And we have also so many bad examples in our history and one small example is Crusades to the midle east...pls count how many years arabs were occupated by us!Why u r surprised that they dont like us...and this is small very small example...

[Danik]

Is it wrong that I support pre-emptive bans?

[LaoSexMachine]

There r thousends of bad examples during the whole islamic history BUT we r not angels!!!And we have also so many bad examples in our history and one small example is Crusades to the midle east...pls count how many years arabs were occupated by us!Why u r surprised that they dont like us...and this is small very small example...

I don't like them. Does that mean I have the right to burn down embassies and blame all what's wrong in my world on them?

[Ought Six]

A3a:
"leave them in peace and they leave u in peace"Pure bullsh*t. Jihadis see their children wearing western clothes, listening to western music, eating western fast food, adopting western cultural and ****** mores, and abandoning fundie Islamism. For this reason Jihadis view the west as a cultural virus that must be eradicated at all costs, no matter how long it takes. They cannot tolerate our existence, as the success of western nations is an example that must not be allowed to stand. The only options for them are advance towards the eventual goal of Planet Isalm, or die trying and go to Paradise.
----------
"Ooouh interesting...u compare arab to the nazis???"No, I compare the Jihadis to Nazis. They are nearly identical. They are both extremely fascist (general, not specific political definition of the term here) in nature. There are many Jihadis that are not Arabs, and most Muslims are not Jihadis. But the Jihadis and Nazis are strikingly alike. They both rely on racism and false victimhood to sell their philosophy, with the Jews as the main enemy. They both seek total world domination and control of the world's population. They refuse to tolerate the existence any other system of belief other than their own. The both allow only members of their cabal into positions of power. They both set up carefully controlled economies with all important industries run by their cronies. They both exploit the weak minded and downtrodden as expendable recruits in their wars of domination. They both view women as chattel. They both use terror and murder to silence critics. The only main difference I can see it that Jihadis are more focused on religion as their central philosophy, while Nazis are more political. But otherwise, the differences are few and insignificant.
----------
"Mayby u'll be surpriesed but yea i belive u SO WHAT?Jewish belive that they r the only choced people on the Earth from the God,Christians belives that who don't belive on Jesus will never be with God SO WHAT?and thousends of such examples SO WHAT???Dont tell me like ur friend that they r also like nazis!"We will not tell you that, because it is just not true. If you look at the things I listed above, few if any apply to most westerners or Israelis.

[Calanen]

Mayby u'll be surpriesed but yea i belive u SO WHAT?Jewish belive that they r the only choced people on the Earth from the God,Christians belives that who don't belive on Jesus will never be with God SO WHAT?and thousends of such examples SO WHAT???Dont tell me like ur friend that they r also like nazis!

But neither the Jews, or the Christians, are likely to strap bombs on themselves to blow up civilians with suicide bombings or crash planes into office buildings..are they? The fact that the people who do this, say they are doing it for Islam is significant isnt it? If what they are doing is wrong, then it needs to be roundly condemned by the Islamic world, and people of importance in the Islamic world. More often there is only mild disapproval, but with justification based on whatever America is doing or Europe or whoever.

Making references to Christians and Jews - is more of this moral relativism stuff. There just is no comparison. The Crusades - I doubt you know anything about them, other than the word 'crusade = bad = christians responsible and are bad'. It was a far more complex series of conflicts, and in any event, the last one was about 800 years ago.

And as for Nazis, I wont break Godwins law. [Awright, I'll post a link where someone else did..]

[Calanen]

Dont tell me like ur friend that they r also like nazis!

http://www.meforum.org/article/1870#_ftn1

Mohamed Sifaoui: "I Consider Islamism to Be Fascism"
Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2008, pp. 13-17
Mohamed Sifaoui was born on July 4, 1967, and spent most of his childhood in Algeria. He holds a master's degree in political science and studied theology for two years at the University of Algiers and for two additional years at Zeitouna University's Institute of Theology in Tunis. In 1994, he began work for the Algerian daily Le Soir and survived a February 11, 1996 bomb attack at Le Soir's headquarters at the Maison de la Presse. In 1999, the French government granted him political asylum after he received death threats both from Algerian Islamists and the military. In Paris, Sifaoui works at the French weekly Marianne. Between October 2002 and January 2003, he infiltrated an Al-Qaeda cell in France in order to research his book, Mes frères assassins: Comment j'ai infiltré une cellule d'Al-Qaïda. (My assassin brothers: How I infiltrated an Al-Qaeda cell).[1] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1870#_ftn1)

Sophie Fernandez Debellemanière, a former intern at Le Figaro and The Weekly Standard, interviewed Sifaoui in Paris on September 12, 2007, after meeting him at a 9-11 ceremony on the Champ de Mars.


An Islamist and Fascist Nexus?

MEQ: Would you use the term Islamo-fascism to describe this threat?
Sifaoui: I certainly am one of the first Muslims to consider Islamism to be fascism. This is not a subjective decision but rather a serious, academic argument. Fascism and Islamism are comparable in many aspects: Fascism, without evoking all its particularities, bears similarities to trends also present in Islamism. I am, of course, making a reference to their will to exterminate the Jews. On this point, the Islamists may go even further in their doctrine than the Nazis did, considering that the end of the world could only occur when there are no Jews left on earth. In the three monotheist religions, apocalypse, end of the world, and doomsday exist and are liturgical events invested with a high degree of spirituality. Hence, the Islamists interpret the end of the world in a very special way. Whereas it is written nowhere in the Qur'an, exegetes describe the end of the world as the day when even the trees and rocks will be able to talk and tell the Muslims: "Come here, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him." And this would go on, until there would not be any Jew left on earth. This ideology is pure fascism.


http://www.meforum.org/img/meq_ttl.gif (http://www.meforum.org/meq/issues) SPRING 2008 • VOLUME XV: NUMBER 2

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Mohamed Sifaoui: "I Consider Islamism to Be Fascism"

Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2008, pp. 13-17
Mohamed Sifaoui was born on July 4, 1967, and spent most of his childhood in Algeria. He holds a master's degree in political science and studied theology for two years at the University of Algiers and for two additional years at Zeitouna University's Institute of Theology in Tunis. In 1994, he began work for the Algerian daily Le Soir and survived a February 11, 1996 bomb attack at Le Soir's headquarters at the Maison de la Presse. In 1999, the French government granted him political asylum after he received death threats both from Algerian Islamists and the military. In Paris, Sifaoui works at the French weekly Marianne. Between October 2002 and January 2003, he infiltrated an Al-Qaeda cell in France in order to research his book, Mes frères assassins: Comment j'ai infiltré une cellule d'Al-Qaïda. (My assassin brothers: How I infiltrated an Al-Qaeda cell).[1] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1870#_ftn1)
Sophie Fernandez Debellemanière, a former intern at Le Figaro and The Weekly Standard, interviewed Sifaoui in Paris on September 12, 2007, after meeting him at a 9-11 ceremony on the Champ de Mars.
In Islamism's Cross Hairs

Middle East Quarterly: Did you flee Algeria because of the terrorist attack on Le Soir?
Mohamed Sifaoui: No. Throughout the 1990s, I was determined to stay. I only left in 1999 when I was sentenced to one year in jail for insulting the head of state. I had criticized President Abdelaziz Bouteflika's reconciliation policy because I considered it unfair to grant amnesty to a terrorist without even judging him. The Algerian government talked about peace without ever recognizing there was a war. The terrorists suddenly got themselves released with the same rights as the victims' families. Bouteflika's behavior towards his people was criminal. They wanted to send me to jail at the same time they were releasing criminals.
MEQ: You stayed longer than most. Were people right to leave Algeria?
Sifaoui: The intellectuals and journalists who left Algeria when the murders started in 1992 were right to do so because the risk was real. Survival instinct is natural and legitimate. It would be indecent to judge them because fear is a legitimate human feeling. In this sense, I was the one being unreasonable by risking my life to stay.
MEQ: Why did you stay in Algeria?
Sifaoui: I didn't want to leave the country under pressure, because of the possibility of another terrorist attack. Nor do I believe that I was especially brave to stay. It is not a question of being brave or weak. The only thing that matters is the message and the values that you want to transmit. As a journalist, I felt that I had to stay. We never obtained press freedom in Algeria, but I wanted to struggle to get a small part of it. We made some progress, but then, Islamism took us backward. By staying, I wanted to show that I would not accept submission to Islamist censorship and its diktat.
MEQ: Are you still worried? After all, two bodyguards are supervising this interview.
Sifaoui: No, I am not worried. I have built sort of a shell around me. I keep calm, and I do not panic. Honestly, I prefer not to think about it; otherwise, I would worry too much.
MEQ: Are you proud today to have risked your life for your ideas?
Sifaoui: Yes, because I am lucky enough to be alive. It is a shame that those who died did not leave for safety. I stayed because I felt that I was able to accomplish this act of resistance. Each person resists in his or her own way; each does what he or she feels able to. Among the members of the World War II resistance, some hid other resisters; some hid Jewish families or helped them escape to Switzerland, and some failed only to denounce them. For me, at this time, my resistance to fundamentalism is based on a determination not to concede any ground to the Islamists but to keep on writing and to defy danger everyday.
MEQ: What was your reaction to Al-Qaeda deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahiri's appeal on September 20, 2007, "to wipe sons of France and Spain" out of the Maghreb?[2] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1870#_ftn2)
Sifaoui: I've been expressing the same warnings about Islamist terrorism for years. Zawahiri's statement doesn't surprise me. Since the GSPC [Salafist Group for Preaching and Combat] pledged its allegiance to Al-Qaeda in September 2006, Algerian terrorists and Al-Qaeda leaders expressed their objective very clearly: Intensify terrorist attacks against the Algerian regime and its institutions, as well as against lay and democratic people, targeting Western and especially French citizens.
MEQ: Do you believe that Zawahiri was referring to the descendants of former colonists in Algeria by using the expression "sons of?" Or was this the result of too literal a translation of the Arabic?
Sifaoui: No! This has nothing to do with any literal translation! Zawahiri is referring to all French and Spanish citizens by saying "sons of." Al-Qaeda's targets are all the French and Spanish citizens in the Maghreb.
MEQ: Less than twenty-four hours after the release of Zawahiri's message, a terrorist attack in Lakhdaria in northern Algeria, fifty miles southeast of Algiers, wounded two French citizens, one Italian, and six Algerians.[3] (http://www.meforum.org/article/1870#_ftn3) Is this attack a sign that the European presence in the Maghreb is in jeopardy?
Sifaoui: I would not be so pessimistic, but such a quick reaction indicates how organized and coordinated Al-Qaeda and the GSPC are. It also shows the Algerian regime's incapacity to deal with terrorism.
An Islamist and Fascist Nexus?

MEQ: Would you use the term Islamo-fascism to describe this threat?

Sifaoui: I certainly am one of the first Muslims to consider Islamism to be fascism. This is not a subjective decision but rather a serious, academic argument. Fascism and Islamism are comparable in many aspects: Fascism, without evoking all its particularities, bears similarities to trends also present in Islamism. I am, of course, making a reference to their will to exterminate the Jews. On this point, the Islamists may go even further in their doctrine than the Nazis did, considering that the end of the world could only occur when there are no Jews left on earth. In the three monotheist religions, apocalypse, end of the world, and doomsday exist and are liturgical events invested with a high degree of spirituality. Hence, the Islamists interpret the end of the world in a very special way. Whereas it is written nowhere in the Qur'an, exegetes describe the end of the world as the day when even the trees and rocks will be able to talk and tell the Muslims: "Come here, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him." And this would go on, until there would not be any Jew left on earth. This ideology is pure fascism.
MEQ: Are there other similarities?

Sifaoui: The will to exterminate or do harm to homo******s is another similarity between Nazism and Islamism. The Islamists, also, say that they are the best community in the world, a superior race thanks to their beliefs. They use political means to arrive at this erroneous exegesis. I do not fear to call it fascism. And there are many more similarities between fascism and Islamism.

[Johnny_H02]

I'm sick and tired of these ****in whiners, look freedom of speech and press is just that & its not up for debate (at least it had better not be).I'm sick of this ****.

Furthermore the word "Islamophobia" isn't really a bad one?
I've made this point before, you can be "Islamophobic" without being racist or prejudice.
Someone may have very valid reasons for fearing or disliking what the Quran says.

Just as someone is entitled to embrace what it says, that is freedom.
Live with it or don't but don't bloody tell those who do they have to conform to some sort of religious code which they do not follow.

Its retarded.

Lets consider this, why is it that Islam is the only faction that has its own brand word for any criticism on it?Where is "Christianophia" or "Judiaophobia" ( antisemitism we can agree is more than about faith its equal to being racist against an ethnic group of people and not based souly on religion)

I'll tell you why because for some reason, Islamic leaders think they are entitled to criticism immunity because "its an affront to my faith".

Its complete bollucks through and through.
Before anyone calls me a "Islamophobe" I think all religion is pretty much all assenine so I don't think anyone is better than the other. I have a bone to pick with the Intelligent Design & Creationism folks too(the good ol'Christians).

[WKD]

Mayby u'll be surpriesed but yea i belive u SO WHAT?Jewish belive that they r the only choced people on the Earth from the God,Christians belives that who don't belive on Jesus will never be with God SO WHAT?and thousends of such examples SO WHAT???Dont tell me like ur friend that they r also like nazis!

Don't think Jews did 9/11, regardless of what the internet says.

These guys don't seem to realise that no one is obliged to pussy-foot around their superstitions. Talk about a sense of ****ing entitlement. They're asking for the sort of special treatment that the christian religion doesn't even get in the west. Not quite sure how they figured that one, guess they think the world revolves around their religious ego. **** 'em all is what I say.

Minardieu or however you spell your name, I know exactly what you mean.

[seraosha]

You guys don't get it.

It's a meme that is highly successful, this Islam you speak of.
You are approaching it like it is a religion, or a form of government, or a difference of values, or a way of treating others...it has aspects that reflect those things, but thats not even close to the mark.

It is a mental virus, a self propagating idea that breeds more versions of itself.

Once a Muslim, you can't leave or you are killed.
If you marry a non-Muslim, you are expected to raise your children as Muslims, and convert your spouse.
If anyone insults Islam they are to be killed.
There is no innovation, no changing, no reformation of Islam allowed...what's been written is it...and ALL other versions or disagreeing canon was BURNED over 1,200 years ago.
Those that defend or fight for Islam are considered holy.
Those that die for it are rewarded for it in the after life.
And all it takes is to say a few simple phrases, and thats all it takes to be a Muslim...and be subject to everything under Islamic law.
And if you somehow keep your faith (Jewish and Christianity...all other faiths are destroyed), you have to pay a protection tax just to exist...and you are not allowed to practice your faith in public, you need to wear identifying clothing identifying you as a non-muslim, and are not allowed to spread the gospel, or the equivalent...because turning someone away from Islam is a crime punishable by death.

So you need to change how you look at Islam folks, if you want any chance of standing in it's way...because it is set to infect the world, and that's it's entire goal...a mind virus with a perfectly adapted host, one people, one faith, one supreme being, one prophet, one idea.

Read it for yourself, think of it as inoculation.
But be careful, there are good things in the Q'uran as well as evil, but that's up to you to decide.

Before the decision is made for you.

[Abu3ale]

I don't like them. Does that mean I have the right to burn down embassies and blame all what's wrong in my world on them?
And did u read from me something where i said that its good what they did?

[Abu3ale]

Ought Six"
Jihadis?Mayby it will be better when u will say fanatic wahhabies...bytheway most of them located in "democratic" arabic Gulf which is full of black gold...Jihad is something else..God is not saying in Quran go and kill the people but some fanatic organisations like Al qaeda by the way "US Made" and Hamas and some Wahhabi institutions in Saudi , Kuwait Qatar and Organisation of Islamic Brothers all of them yea they are nazis u r 100% right.

[Calanen]

Sorry guys, tried to fix the formatting on the above post - but the edit function keeps timing out so I cant do so.

[SBL]

Ought Six"
Jihadis?Mayby it will be better when u will say fanatic wahhabies...bytheway most of them located in "democratic" arabic Gulf which is full of black gold...Jihad is something else..God is not saying in Quran go and kill the people but some fanatic organisations like Al qaeda by the way "US Made" and Hamas and some Wahhabi institutions in Saudi , Kuwait Qatar and Organisation of Islamic Brothers all of them yea they are nazis u r 100% right.

Explain, please.

[Abu3ale]

Don't think Jews did 9/11, regardless of what the internet says.

These guys don't seem to realise that no one is obliged to pussy-foot around their superstitions. Talk about a sense of ****ing entitlement. They're asking for the sort of special treatment that the christian religion doesn't even get in the west. Not quite sure how they figured that one, guess they think the world revolves around their religious ego. **** 'em all is what I say.

Minardieu or however you spell your name, I know exactly what you mean.
And who was talking here about 9/11?p-)
I tell u what...A lot of Muslims in Gulf and north africa world if we take arabic world are generally easyly manipulated by the religion so leaders of Islamic organisations have to do something to make some storm around there religon to make Muslims like them and this is what they r doing and u help them u me europeans americans by bombing them accupating them etc...leave them alone and they leave us alone.

[Abu3ale]

Explain, please.
I will but could u pls tell me waht exactly?

[SBL]

I will but could u pls tell me waht exactly?

The part about Al Queda being US made. Also, where are you from?

[LaoSexMachine]

And did u read from me something where i said that its good what they did?

Keep bringing up the crusades and shyt. How long ago was that? And what is this "us" BS?

[Ought Six]

A3a:
"Jihadis?Mayby it will be better when u will say fanatic wahhabies..."There are Shia Jihadis as well, like Ahmadinejad and friends.
----------
"bytheway most of them located in "democratic" arabic Gulf which is full of black gold..."The only remotely democratic nation in the Gulf (other than Iraq) is Quatar, and 'remotely' fits. It is a monarchy with a veneer of democracy. But it is not exactly a mecca for Jihadis (no pun intended). Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE and Iran are the Jihadi strongholds. Egypt, Algeria, Yemen, Sudan, Pakistan and Indonesia seem to have more than their share as well.
----------
"Jihad is something else..God is not saying in Quran go and kill the people...."Your lips to other Muslims' ears.
----------
".... but some fanatic organisations like Al qaeda by the way "US Made"...."Your tinfoil hat is way too tight. It has cut off the oxygen to your brain.
----------
"..... and Hamas and some Wahhabi institutions in Saudi , Kuwait Qatar and Organisation of Islamic Brothers all of them yea they are nazis u r 100% right."At least we agree on something, but you forgot the Pali death cultists. So when are the rest of the Muslims going to stand up, say that, and tell these Nazi bastards to STFU and stop killing people? Most of their victims are other Muslims. You would think that would piss off the locals enough to compel them to deal with the problem once and for all. After all, there are a hell of lot more non-Jihadi Muslims than Jihadi ones. It sure makes you wonder.... :|

[Abu3ale]

The part about Al Queda being US made. Also, where are you from?
Oh common...u dont know that Qaeda was made and for so long supported by US?This started during the soviet invasion to Afghanistan.

[SBL]

Oh common...u dont know that Qaeda was made and for so long supported by US?This started during the soviet invasion to Afghanistan.

Well, that's certainly news to me. I was under the impression it was the brainchild of Osama Bin Laden and Co.

Also, you didn't answer the second part. Where are you from?

[LaoSexMachine]

Oh common...u dont know that Qaeda was made and for so long supported by US?This started during the soviet invasion to Afghanistan.

AQ didn't exist during The Soviet-Afghanistan conflict. They were organise afterwards. Oh common.:roll:

[Abu3ale]

Keep bringing up the crusades and shyt. How long ago was that? And what is this "us" BS?
Ooouh so how long...so it happend so long ago so we have to forget that right?Ok then why we have Israel in this world?Im not saying that it shouldnt be there but im answering ur question...There were a country called Israel before some thousend years its also so long...I dont know if u know that the history of modern Israel going to 1948.

[Abu3ale]

AQ didn't exist during The Soviet-Afghanistan conflict. They were organise afterwards. Oh common.:roll:
Ok mayby the was not AQ ... there is no problem to change the name this is not important BUT Usama Bin Laden was there????YES
He was supported by US???YES

[Abu3ale]

Well, that's certainly news to me. I was under the impression it was the brainchild of Osama Bin Laden and Co.

Also, you didn't answer the second part. Where are you from?
i think where im from is absolutly not connected to this thread:)

[SBL]

Ok mayby the was not AQ ... there is no problem to change the name this is not important BUT Usama Bin Laden was there????YES
He was supported by US???YES

Pakistani ISI was also there. Read about Operation Cyclone.

[Abu3ale]

A3a:There are Shia Jihadis as well, like Ahmadinejad and friends.

Ahmadnigad and jihad?:))wehere?and who is his friends...if u mean Hizballah then read
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130525

[SBL]

i think where im from is absolutly not connected to this thread:)

I think it is. Especially if you're going to be telling the rest of "us" how things ought to be handled.

[Abu3ale]

Pakistani ISI was also there. Read about Operation Cyclone.
Pakistan will be there forever becoz they share the same borders with afghanistan...but for a long long time it or he Laden was supported by US.

[SBL]

...but for a long long time it or he Laden was supported by US.

Proof please.

[Abu3ale]

I think it is. Especially if you're going to be telling the rest of "us" how things ought to be handled.
Read this topic from the begining pls and u will see that i came and started writting here yesterday and before so many colegs here were telling Muslims how to things to be handled...why u dont ask them that?
Im not teaching u we have here a dialog u give ur opinion i give mine that is all:)

[SBL]

Read this topic from the begining pls and u will see that i came and started writting here yesterday and before so many colegs here were telling Muslims how to things to be handled...why u dont ask them that?
Im not teaching u we have here a dialog u give ur opinion i give mine that is all:)


I already know where most of them are from. If you don't want to make it public that's cool. You can send me a PM. But I would like to know as I think it would help me get a better idea of where you're coming from and what you're trying to say.

[Abu3ale]

Proof please.
Here are some but i will try to find more:
http://archive.capecodonline.com/special/terror/binladen17b.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_supported_al_qaeda_cells_during_balkan_wars.html

[SBL]

Here are some but i will try to find more:
http://archive.capecodonline.com/special/terror/binladen17b.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_supported_al_qaeda_cells_during_balkan_wars.html

Aww Lawdy! How did I know you were going to post prisonplanet?

[Abu3ale]

I already know where most of them are from. If you don't want to make it public that's cool. You can send me a PM. But I would like to know as I think it would help me get a better idea of where you're coming from and what you're trying to say.
It dosent matter from where i am but what i think or u separate people by from they r?i dosent matter look Jews came from all over the world and they r happy living in Israel.

[Ought Six]

There are many who have tried to spin CIA support for the Afghan Muhajadeen into bin Laden being 'a CIA asset'. The man has his own agenda, and always has. It is not America's agenda. Stupid conspiracy theories are not going to change this obvious fact.

Oh, and using ridiculous conspiracy theory sites like Prison Planet as 'proof' does not exactly enhance what little credibility you had.

[LaoSexMachine]

Here are some but i will try to find more:
http://archive.capecodonline.com/special/terror/binladen17b.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_supported_al_qaeda_cells_during_balkan_wars.html

Hhahahaahhaah. Damn, can I get a witness?

[SBL]

It dosent matter from where i am but what i think or u separate people by from they r?i dosent matter look Jews came from all over the world and they r happy living in Israel.

You really need to work on your composition.
And for all intents and purposes, it does matter to me where you are from.
1) It lends me some insight into why you argue the way you do
2) I'm just curious.

Naturally, I'm not suggesting a certain person has to think one way or the other based on his origins. But in this case, it could help me decide if you're a straight-shooter or not. If you'd prefer to withhold it, that's totally cool. I'm just saying it doesn't help your case with me personally, though. Make sense?

[Calanen]

It dosent matter from where i am but what i think or u separate people by from they r?i dosent matter look Jews came from all over the world and they r happy living in Israel.

My best guess is Turkey.

The Jews also, originally, came from Israel.

[Laworkerbee]

Oh common...u dont know that Qaeda was made and for so long supported by US?This started during the soviet invasion to Afghanistan.

AQ came late in the Anti Soviet Jihad; the United States had lost interest and stopped sending funds by the time OBL's crew came on scene.

[Snoshi]

Ahmadnigad and jihad?:))wehere?and who is his friends...if u mean Hizballah then read
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=130525

Hmmm.. So Hezbollah was not a jihadist organisation from the start? They basically perfected suicide bombing.. What AQ and other terrorists are doing now Hezbollah already did long time ago. Hijacking of aircraft, suicide bombing etc.

[IDF_TANKER]

Hhahahaahhaah. Damn, can I get a witness?

What for??:roll: It's written on the internetz, white on black.

[Satellite Weapon]

Here's what is wrong - Islamo phobia isn't about race,
some of the Muslim extremists are Arab, some are African, some came from Asia, that California terrorist guy Adam Gadahn - he was a white dude !

If Muslims didn't have so many extremists in their society there would be no Islamo phobia
http://www.youtube.com/v/v4svbieXRk8
It is a battle of ideologies, one respects freedom while another one practices intolerance. Why was there almost a thousand supporters of Sharia law at Minneapolis Airport ?

[3rdMillhouse]

Ooouh interesting...u compare arab to the nazis???

No, I compare Terrorist-supporting islamic nations to the nazis. It's like that other member just said: "Shape up, or ship out."

If one can't accept the fact the our democratic ways overrules any religious beliefs, the one should get the **** out of our countries and get back to those primitive teocratic dictatorships in the middle east (africa). Like Iran for example.

PS: I have nothing against Islam; I have a thing against muslims who can't accept the fact that, in a democracy, the constitution overrules any religious laws.


Pakistan will be there forever becoz they share the same borders with afghanistan...but for a long long time it or he Laden was supported by US.

Michael Moore just called, he said he wants his arguments back.

US supported the afghani rebels in deafeating the soviets. That's it, they weren't supporting Bin Laden or Taliban, they supported afghanis interested in defeating the godless soviets and preventing them from forcing communism on Afghanistan.

[Ulytau]

4000, 1400 years makes no difference islam has not evolved one jot, it still wants all non muslims dead and is still committing barbaric acts of terrorism to attain this.

.

Dear Mr.
Can you tell me who supported political religion aganist Soviet Union and aganist Muslim countries until 11 september

I can give you every document what you want..

i'm %100 sure your age didnt reached 18 yet also you have no difference with extremists also easy to see you dont know any sh!t so go and get a brain plz..

Thank You..

[Trenk]

oh how I HATE this sh.t

[Sanat-e-naft]

I am a Muslim living in America. I am in the last year of law school and have come to love what the constitution stands for. If these people were true Muslims they would undertand that our religion is one of the most tolerant and peaceful out there. They preach hate and are intolerant of other opinions. That is not only un-American, but runs directly counter to the teachings of Islam. The best way to combat the small group of nut-bags whom have hijacked my religion is to allow free press to pick on us, just like they pick on Christians and other groups and show our flaws so that they can be fixed.

[WKD]

Ooouh so how long...so it happend so long ago so we have to forget that right?Ok then why we have Israel in this world?Im not saying that it shouldnt be there but im answering ur question...There were a country called Israel before some thousend years its also so long...I dont know if u know that the history of modern Israel going to 1948.

Some hundreds of years ago. And Israel exists because the arab states haven't been able to destroy it yet. Not for lack of trying.

Should probably note that christianity doesn't have the same power in the west that it did back then. Societies evolved. Funny that. It's a subtlety that many muslims around here seem to miss, even if they've been living here for years.


Dear Mr.
Can you tell me who supported political religion aganist Soviet Union and aganist Muslim countries until 11 september

I can give you every document what you want..

i'm %100 sure your age didnt reached 18 yet also you have no difference with extremists also easy to see you dont know any sh!t so go and get a brain plz..

Thank You..

Please, show us all these documents.

[Lazy Lob]

I am a Muslim living in America. I am in the last year of law school and have come to love what the constitution stands for. If these people were true Muslims they would undertand that our religion is one of the most tolerant and peaceful out there. ..........


Is it.......? Mmmmmkay.

[Sanat-e-naft]

If you were versed in the actual religion of Islam, and not what someone told you then you would be smart enough to discuss and not just be a smart a**.

[Lazy Lob]

If you were versed in the actual religion of Islam, and not what someone told you then you would be smart enough to discuss and not just be a smart a**.

So you are claiming to be a versed spokesperson for Islam. Please cure me from my smart arsery. I quivver at the prospect.

[Sanat-e-naft]

I am not sure where in my post you derived that I am the spokesperson for Islam? But I think that if you would take the time to learn a few things about Islam before you spoke it would serve you well. But I imagine it is easier to sit home and live in ignorance.

[WKD]

I am not sure where in my post you derived that I am the spokesperson for Islam? But I think that if you would take the time to learn a few things about Islam before you spoke it would serve you well. But I imagine it is easier to sit home and live in ignorance.

Please, do enlighten us, especially when it comes to apostasy and blasphemy. I want to hear all about it.

[Lazy Lob]

I am not sure where in my post you derived that I am the spokesperson for Islam? But I think that if you would take the time to learn a few things about Islam before you spoke it would serve you well. But I imagine it is easier to sit home and live in ignorance.

Please enlighten us. I hate being ignorant. You seem to know the truth, spill the beans.

[Laworkerbee]

I am a Muslim living in America. I am in the last year of law school and have come to love what the constitution stands for. If these people were true Muslims they would undertand that our religion is one of the most tolerant and peaceful out there. They preach hate and are intolerant of other opinions. That is not only un-American, but runs directly counter to the teachings of Islam. The best way to combat the small group of nut-bags whom have hijacked my religion is to allow free press to pick on us, just like they pick on Christians and other groups and show our flaws so that they can be fixed.

Good point.

Because once Muslim outrage stops appearing over smallish issues then the press will move on knowing it can't get a rise and ratings with a Muslim story when they are having a slow news day.

[Sanat-e-naft]

If you are really interested I would suggest reading (it is very short and to the point, though somewhat dated)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175987,00.html

The article was written by Karen Armstrong for TIME. She is very bright and this article sets forth some interesting points. I think that if you take an honest look at all religions, there are phrases in all holy books that can be distorted and taken out of context to make any religion sound bad. But I think that you are missing the point, I am saying an open discussion of religion is good and should be a way to point out problems in all religions, not a way to promote hatred and bigotry.

PS - If I claimed to have a monopoly on truth, that would be equally as un-American.

[WKD]

If you are really interested I would suggest reading (it is very short and to the point, though somewhat dated)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175987,00.html

The article was written by Karen Armstrong for TIME. She is very bright and this article sets forth some interesting points. I think that if you take an honest look at all religions, there are phrases in all holy books that can be distorted and taken out of context to make any religion sound bad. But I think that you are missing the point, I am saying an open discussion of religion is good and should be a way to point out problems in all religions, not a way to promote hatred and bigotry.

PS - If I claimed to have a monopoly on truth, that would be equally as un-American.

Awesome. You realise that in 'the west' everybody ignores those 'passages'?

Can't recall the last time someone was executed for apostasy, blasphemy, adultery, fornication, homo******ity or heresy around here. Hmmmmmm.

Can't do better than that? Try googling apostasy and see what you come up with.

[Hilbert]

If these people were true Muslims they would undertand that our religion is one of the most tolerant and peaceful out there.

It may well be, I'm no expert on Islam. All I can say is the people who are blowing themselves up in the name of Islam and who preach death to those for mere criticism of your religion aren't helping promote this. If more people were like you and would stand against this type of action instead of standing on the sidelines, I believe more people would be less suspicious of Islam.


They preach hate and are intolerant of other opinions. That is not only un-American, but runs directly counter to the teachings of Islam.

All the more reason I believe muslims should stand against this type of extremism.


The best way to combat the small group of nut-bags whom have hijacked my religion is to allow free press to pick on us, just like they pick on Christians and other groups and show our flaws so that they can be fixed.

I really wish more people took this attitude; I firmly believe that everything in our world short of God/Allah himself carries with it flaws, whether it be Muslims, Christians, or Buddhists. The problem is that the few do define the many, while some of my closest freinds are muslims and I'm not afraid they'll blow themselves up (hell, I have christian freinds I'm more afraid of doing this); just goes to show that there are good and bad people everywhere, regardless of nation or religion. It doesn't change the fact that because of those who do these things, the one's that don't are looked at suspiciously. From a third person perspective as a non-muslim, I would say more criticism and standing against extremists would help remedy the problem; drive a wedge between the extremists and you, don't let them hide behind and tarnish your faith, publically separate yourselves.

Just my two cents,
Hildebert

[Sanat-e-naft]

Thank god we arent executing people around here for things like that. I am not saying my religion is perfect, and I am not saying we are the most peaceful. Islam needs a change, many Muslims like myself love America and the freedoms it stands for. Not all Muslims are the same, much the same way groups like the KKK and Aryan Brothers dont represent Christians. And that is where most people miss the boat, not all muslims are from some cookie-cutter, a lot of Muslims are like me, more than happy for democracy and freedom to exist, and fully believe that religion and freedom can co-exist. Your battle is not with me my friend. It is with intolerance (no matter what their faith). Agreed?

[Lazy Lob]

If you are really interested I would suggest reading (it is very short and to the point, though somewhat dated)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011001-175987,00.html

The article was written by Karen Armstrong for TIME. She is very bright and this article sets forth some interesting points. I think that if you take an honest look at all religions, there are phrases in all holy books that can be distorted and taken out of context to make any religion sound bad. But I think that you are missing the point, I am saying an open discussion of religion is good and should be a way to point out problems in all religions, not a way to promote hatred and bigotry.

PS - If I claimed to have a monopoly on truth, that would be equally as un-American.

Your statement at my smart arsery must mean you have a more valid opinion. Then you refer it onto the very biased Karen Armstrong. Try Ibn Warraq.

[Hilbert]

Thank god we arent executing people around here for things like that. I am not saying my religion is perfect, and I am not saying we are the most peaceful.
All the more reason why peace loving muslims need to publically distance themselves from extremists and not let the extremists blend in with them; doing so only promotes suspicion.


And that is where most people miss the boat, not all muslims are from some cookie-cutter, a lot of Muslims are like me, more than happy for democracy and freedom to exist, and fully believe that religion and freedom can co-exist. Your battle is not with me my friend. It is with intolerance (no matter what their faith). Agreed?

No, don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you! As I said some of my own freinds are muslims and I'm not worried about them blowing anyone up; your right, there are good and bad people everywhere.
- Hilde

[Calanen]

Thank god we arent executing people around here for things like that. I am not saying my religion is perfect, and I am not saying we are the most peaceful.


Its not perfection we are striving for..just far less terrorism in the name of Islam. The problem is that there are people in your camp who believe this, and many others who support them. You have to stand up and own the problems of your community, and not keep trying to shift the blame onto the West. It will never get better if you keep wearing the Emperor's clothes and saying 'Oh but they are not REAL muslims...' They have a lot of financial and moral support from 'real' muslims however - dont they.

[Ulytau]

Its not perfection we are striving for..just far less terrorism in the name of Islam. The problem is that there are people in your camp who believe this, and many others who support them. You have to stand up and own the problems of your community, and not keep trying to shift the blame onto the West. It will never get better if you keep wearing the Emperor's clothes and saying 'Oh but they are not REAL muslims...' They have a lot of financial and moral support from 'real' muslims however - dont they.

Vahabi money..

Also they have problem with many muslims in the World too they dont like who arent member of Vahabism..

Also its lookin like reason of Sunni-Shia clashs..

at Devlet-i Ali ''Ottoman'' times Sultan declared them as an astray organization cause they tried to destroy Hz.Muhammeds relation graves..

Today who have great relationship with them mate?

An European leader who loving blaming to us''Turks'' was saying thank you to King about HUMAN RIGHTS in Saudi Arabia.

You guys can check about Ajax Operation in Iran too my personal idea just another reason of revolution..

[Calanen]

An European leader who loving blaming to us''Turks'' was saying thank you to King about HUMAN RIGHTS in Saudi Arabia.


I dont think anyone here is blaming Turkey, its the only true secular nation in that part of the world.

[Ulytau]

I dont think anyone here is blaming Turkey, its the only true secular nation in that part of the world.

No no no..

It is not about users in forum mate its about a politican i didnt write his name will be reason of flame war :D

[seraosha]

Then you refer it onto the very biased Karen Armstrong. Try Ibn Warraq.

Right123456

[E-2]

haha neke..

[Ought Six]

C:
"I dont think anyone here is blaming Turkey, its the only true secular nation in that part of the world."I do not think you can call a nation where insults to the Islamic religion are a serious crime "truly secular". I would go as far as "mostly secular", but no farther. Israel even bans some activities in some areas on Fridays to cater to the Jewish fundies. There are no "truly secular" nations in the Middle East that I am aware of.

[WKD]

Thank god we arent executing people around here for things like that. I am not saying my religion is perfect, and I am not saying we are the most peaceful. Islam needs a change, many Muslims like myself love America and the freedoms it stands for. Not all Muslims are the same, much the same way groups like the KKK and Aryan Brothers dont represent Christians. And that is where most people miss the boat, not all muslims are from some cookie-cutter, a lot of Muslims are like me, more than happy for democracy and freedom to exist, and fully believe that religion and freedom can co-exist. Your battle is not with me my friend. It is with intolerance (no matter what their faith). Agreed?

Unfortunately some of these Islamic groups are also national governments, not dope dealing white-trash.

When you let your sister go and choose her own ****** partners then I might start taking your statements on personal freedom seriously.

[Ariha]

And I want to curb Islamic terror that inspires the phobos (fear). Maybe if the OIC takes energetic action against the Islamic terror the phobia will disappear greatly, but I feel that somehow they are not interested in this course of action, exactly...

[Sanat-e-naft]

Unfortunately some of these Islamic groups are also national governments, not dope dealing white-trash.

When you let your sister go and choose her own ****** partners then I might start taking your statements on personal freedom seriously.


It is very unfortunate that some Islamic regimes are repressive. Wish it wasnt the case. But unfortunatly "me and what army" are gonna change that?

And if I had a sister I would let her sleep with whoever she wanted (which btw, you should know most of my friends with sisters who arent muslim are pretty protective of their sisters, not because of religion but pregnancy, aids, etc.). It is the freedom of other peoples sisters that made college so fun while it lasted. I am American, born and raised. My hypothetical sister would have as much freedom as I do. Of course I am not a fanatic, so that helps, and I think the best thing about America is the freedoms we have granted by the consitution. Now you gonna take me seriously? HAHA, just kidding about the taking me seriously part. I bet we could both talk till we were blue in the face and you wouldnt take me seriously. But thats the beauty of America. We dont havta see eye to eye. God bless.

[4X4Driver]

C:I do not think you can call a nation where insults to the Islamic religion are a serious crime "truly secular". I would go as far as "mostly secular", but no farther.

There is no such law that criminalizes insult to Islam in Turkish penalcode. No such punishment has taken place in the history of the republic...it simply can not happen in a secular counrty. The day that happens, Turkey will lose it's secularist understanding.

Let's please use facts...not assumptions in such claims.

[WKD]

It is very unfortunate that some Islamic regimes are repressive. Wish it wasnt the case. But unfortunatly "me and what army" are gonna change that?

And if I had a sister I would let her sleep with whoever she wanted (which btw, you should know most of my friends with sisters who arent muslim are pretty protective of their sisters, not because of religion but pregnancy, aids, etc.). It is the freedom of other peoples sisters that made college so fun while it lasted. I am American, born and raised. My hypothetical sister would have as much freedom as I do. Of course I am not a fanatic, so that helps, and I think the best thing about America is the freedoms we have granted by the consitution. Now you gonna take me seriously? HAHA, just kidding about the taking me seriously part. I bet we could both talk till we were blue in the face and you wouldnt take me seriously. But thats the beauty of America. We dont havta see eye to eye. God bless.

Well then, I guess I wouldn't have too many problems with you. You'd just have to keep your religion to yourself though, I can't stand people who preach.

[Sanat-e-naft]

I agree about preachy people, trust me man, I grew up in the Bible belt, I got preached to more than my fair share.

[Bongopete]

I agree about preachy in the bible belt. Some of those nuts are right up there with a bunch of others.

[Suicaine]

theres no problem with religion, even when religion dictates your way of life there is no problem, no true religion would advocate pointless killing, and torture, Islamic fundamentalists, aren't islamic at all, from what i can gather the Qu'ran doesn't support their views but the extremeists are trying to interperet bible codes that aren't there.

also these topics are shrouded by animosity so i would like to state my views.

I do not have a problem with other religions and other cultures so long as they do not dominate our own in our own country and that in public members of these cultures would try to assimilate as best they beleive that they can.

- Alex.