Question on the holocaust repayments

[black mamba]

i know that this question has the potential of blowing up in my face but in light of the recent Belgian repayments to holocaust victims, i want to understand the Jewish point of view on one thing:

(and before this ends up being a flame bait, let me clarify that i am not a holocaust denier)

why do governments and tax payers in present times, have to pay for crimes committed against Jews by their forefathers 60 odd years ago? somehow, doesnt seem to be fair.

If this is going to create a mess, then, moderators, please feel free to block this thread. thanks

[Herrmannek]

because country is a warrant of continuity. It would suck if you would buy a bunch of land for a bunch of cash and after a war you learn it was all BS and you own nothing. Next it would suck if your mother country send you to camp to die and take all you stuff and give to poor. Thats why country have to pay for things happened 60 years ago. On other hand most of the Jewish claims made by "wholesale organizations" is baseless but thats the matter for other discussions...

[Danik]

Because those countries have in their possession the land and property of their citizens that they helped in sending to their deaths. Therefore it would make sense that they try to return some of whats owed to the people that rightfully own it. 60 years is nothing, the victims and the perpetrators are still very much alive. My history professor in Prague never had anything returned to him, when he came back from the war, both of his parents being dead, he tried to go home to his apartment and was promptly sent away to labor camp for 5 years. To this day he was not compensated in any way, and he does not seek it as he has moved on to a better life in the US.


During the communist revolution, the communists nationalized a lot of foreign assets withing Russia. Remember when that revolution occurred? Yeltsin reimbursed the countries who had their possessions taken away, now remember when Yeltsin was around? A tad over 60 years?

Same issue with Cuba, we might start lifting our embargo, but someone owes us a little something or other, namely our oil refineries.

[Calanen]

why do governments and tax payers in present times, have to pay for crimes committed against Jews by their forefathers 60 odd years ago? somehow, doesnt seem to be fair.

If this is going to create a mess, then, moderators, please feel free to block this thread. thanks

Because, the people this happened to, many of them or their immediate descendants are still alive (who may be claiming on their estates). The state of Belgium, exists as it always has since 1830. It has legal personality to sue, and be sued or at least be morally responsible for the acts it has done. Whether or not the people who were part of the Belgian hierarchy are still alive does not matter. The lady who owns the block of apartments I live in has the nazi number tattooed on her arm from the camps. I imagine it does not seem like it was too long ago for her.

[GazB]

Same issue with Cuba, we might start lifting our embargo, but someone owes us a little something or other, namely our oil refineries.

The cost of the sanctions with the added cost of the terrorism (ie sugar cane field burnings) and of course the Bay of Pigs invasion... and of course the fact that most of the American owned stuff confiscated was owned by the mob anyway... I think if you are not even you probably owe them by now.

[Eztyga]

The lady who owns the block of apartments I live in has the nazi number tattooed on her arm from the camps. I imagine it does not seem like it was too long ago for her.

Good point.

I believe that giving them money to 'keep the memory alive' is a waste, it could be put to better use.

I'm sick of having to change channel because of all the holocaust docos on SBS. :cantbeli:

Ezy

[Danik]

The cost of the sanctions with the added cost of the terrorism (ie sugar cane field burnings) and of course the Bay of Pigs invasion... and of course the fact that most of the American owned stuff confiscated was owned by the mob anyway... I think if you are not even you probably owe them by now.

I was unaware the mob owned oil refineries.

If I'm not mistaken the majority of the money coming into Cuba prior to the revolution was American money, sorry but getting on America's bad side and expecting the US to continue to trade with you is a little pretentious.

Even or not I don't think our business is invited any way.

[Danik]

Good point.

I believe that giving them money to 'keep the memory alive' is a waste, it could be put to better use.

I'm sick of having to change channel because of all the holocaust docos on SBS. :cantbeli:

Ezy

I don't think you understand. It is not about keeping the memory alive, its about a person who shows up to their house only to find it occupied by someone else, their possessions(wedding rings, paintings, silverware, dinning room table, etc) are all gone, stolen essentially by the state, the state acting voluntarily or under the threat of force. Sometimes they can prove that they owned these things, and the State gives them money for their stolen property and other losses.

Maybe you should stop watching the one channel that has a holocaust documentary.

[Moledet]

Simple. Let's say your country sends you to a war factory, takes all your belongings, makes you work in hard labor for one slice of bread a day, makes you sleep in a large and crowded container full of diseases, give you one piece of clothes for any weather (whether it's -20c or 25c). You watch people die right next to you, you become ill of diseases and malnutrition, and you are humiliated, beaten and suffer day in and day out.
After you've passed all that you suffer from psychological disorders and physical diseases that continue with you for the rest of your life, wouldn't you say you deserve compensations?

[Bia]

So... native American Indian have the right....to push me outta my Apt?


: P

[Moledet]

So... native American Indian have the right....to push me outta my Apt?


: P
You live in a mud hut or an ancient Indian stone building?
Jews as a nation can not claim territory in Europe, only individuals can if they can prove ownership. Since Indians had no ownership papers and no other type of documentation of a person's belongings they can't sue anyone for property.

[Ariha]

So... native American Indian have the right....to push me outta my Apt?


: P

Was your aparment and your wealth built by the American Indians?

Howewer it would be nice of the Americans to recognize American Indian rights,a nd offer them an historical reparation. After all you´re lucky, they have a very different point of view about land ownership.

[Bia]

You live in a mud hut or an ancient Indian stone building?
Jews as a nation can not claim territory in Europe, only individuals can if they can prove ownership. Since Indians had no ownership papers and no other type of documentation of a person's belongings they can't sue anyone for property.
I was speaking on a human level, rhetorical question......not some lawyering redtape BS.

[Ariha]

I was speaking on a human level, rhetorical question......not some lawyering redtape BS.

Yours´is not on "human level" but based on who has more brute force to impose its will. Better some lawyering redtape BS.

[Bia]

Yours´is not on "human level" but based on who has more brute force to impose its will. Better some lawyering redtape BS.
You are so far offbase as to what I am speaking of.


lmao

[Calanen]

So... native American Indian have the right....to push me outta my Apt?


: P

At some point all analogies break down. And yours is now beside the information superhighway with the hood up.

We are not talking about native americans. We are talking about victims of the Third Reich.

[Telmar]

In the case of France, I think that it was discovered in the mid nineties that some Paris flats belonging to the city were non reclaimed flats belonging to Jews sent to death camps.

As far as having been compensated by the French government, I think that even if the money has an uncomfortable taste to it, it was a French government that confiscated propriety and send my family to the death camps.

That goverment was not imposed by Germany...Elected parliament gave full powers to Petain...The French state was a legimitate french government...It holds accountability for its deeds. Even if the money will never compensate for the losses and sufferings. Maybe thats why the money has a sour taste to it.

[GazB]

I was unaware the mob owned oil refineries.

So most of the stuff owned by the US was oil refineries?
The Mob basically ran the place, fleecing visiting US citizens of money through gambling, prostitution etc etc. They didn't bother fleecing the Cubans because they had nothing... they worked in the sugar cane fields for the rich white owners.


If I'm not mistaken the majority of the money coming into Cuba prior to the revolution was American money,

And most of it went back to Americans... the ones in the mob or the rich white business men who owned the sugar fields etc.


sorry but getting on America's bad side and expecting the US to continue to trade with you is a little pretentious.


I am sure most cubans were happy to see the back of the white businessmen and the mob. They probably had a problem with the US sabotaging Cubas economy by threatening legal action against any company that did business with cuba and did business in the US. The US didn't even have such restrictions on the Soviet Union. The American treatment of Cuba showed the world what sort of "good guy" they were... you certainly played hardball with them.


After you've passed all that you suffer from psychological disorders and physical diseases that continue with you for the rest of your life, wouldn't you say you deserve compensations?

You probably do, but who should you get the compensations from? The children of those that did you wrong? If you hold on to the past you adopt a victim mentality and become more of a victim. Everyone has a hard life.

If the survivors need compensation then shouldn't those that did not survive deserve some too? Perhaps even more because they leave a gap that must be filled with another life, or may never be filled.
The problem with compensation is is your own house clean? Most European countries have long colonial pasts. In a sense even the state of Israel today has a similar historical past to Germany. Hitler wanted to rule the world and started with Europe. Problem was there were already people in Europe. Those in the West he considered civilised to a degree, though not as civilised as "his kind" of course. In the East was a different matter and the extermination of the Jews was matched with an equal attempt to exterminate the Slavs and the communists. Does a Jew deserve more or less compensation than a communist? Or a Russian? What about a Jewish Russian communist?
Do the purpetrating states even have enough money to compensate all their victims? Giving compensation for treatment and loss of property... does that apply when the entire village is gone and all the former inhabitants are dead? That happened a lot on the eastern front... areas were subject to scortched earth policies 5-6 times by both sides... how can you prove you lost your property as a result of, say the Nazis when after an allied bombing your property was levelled anyway and new buildings have been built there. How do you deal with damage to property? The current possessors of the property might have protected it from fire or total destruction. It might have been destroyed and they rebuilt it themselves. Doesn't that give them some rights to ownership too. Sounds like a huge can of worms to me.


You live in a mud hut or an ancient Indian stone building?


I think he means they owned the land that was taken for eventually his use. That makes him the receiver of stolen property. He is innocent, but the Indians certainly deserve compensation for the theft.


After all you´re lucky, they have a very different point of view about land ownership.

Sounds very australian... the australian aboriginies didn't have a concept of personal property or ownership of land. The white settlers used this to basically occupy land without negotiation. I think it was in 1967 that Australians stopped counting aborigines as flora and fauna.. :(

[Freedom-Fries]

So... native American Indian have the right....to push me I'm not touching that one

[Stan187]

Everyone has a hard life.

Yeah, I mean jeez, it was just the Holocaust. Those survivors should just get over themselves, their victim mentality isn't fooling anyone.

:roll::roll::roll:

:backhand:

[Calanen]

Sounds very australian... the australian aboriginies didn't have a concept of personal property or ownership of land. The white settlers used this to basically occupy land without negotiation. I think it was in 1967 that Australians stopped counting aborigines as flora and fauna.. :-(


That's rubbish. Australian Aborigines were never considered to be 'plants and flowers' or 'fauna'.

They were officially counted for the purpose of the distribution of electoral boundaries in 1967.

And fauna cant vote - and Aborigines depending on the state, had the ability vote long before then.

http://www.aec.gov.au/pdf/education/resources/history_indigenous_vote.pdf

I cant defend what happened to Aboriginal people. But I can defend Australia against things that are not true, and what you posted is misleading and incorrect.

[Eztyga]

Maybe you should stop watching the one channel that has a holocaust documentary.

I would, but alas, my thumb long ago stopped functioning and has since grown into the remote buttons, and I am doomed to lay ****e watching foreign language films and endless WW2 documentaries. :-(

On the bright side the dog has learned to dial for pizza and beer. :)

Ezy

[Danik]

You probably do, but who should you get the compensations from? The children of those that did you wrong? If you hold on to the past you adopt a victim mentality and become more of a victim. Everyone has a hard life.

If the survivors need compensation then shouldn't those that did not survive deserve some too? Perhaps even more because they leave a gap that must be filled with another life, or may never be filled.
The problem with compensation is is your own house clean? Most European countries have long colonial pasts. In a sense even the state of Israel today has a similar historical past to Germany. Hitler wanted to rule the world and started with Europe. Problem was there were already people in Europe. Those in the West he considered civilised to a degree, though not as civilised as "his kind" of course. In the East was a different matter and the extermination of the Jews was matched with an equal attempt to exterminate the Slavs and the communists. Does a Jew deserve more or less compensation than a communist? Or a Russian? What about a Jewish Russian communist?
Do the purpetrating states even have enough money to compensate all their victims? Giving compensation for treatment and loss of property... does that apply when the entire village is gone and all the former inhabitants are dead? That happened a lot on the eastern front... areas were subject to scortched earth policies 5-6 times by both sides... how can you prove you lost your property as a result of, say the Nazis when after an allied bombing your property was levelled anyway and new buildings have been built there. How do you deal with damage to property? The current possessors of the property might have protected it from fire or total destruction. It might have been destroyed and they rebuilt it themselves. Doesn't that give them some rights to ownership too. Sounds like a huge can of worms to me.


I will leave out any more responses on Cuba because this is not the thread to discuss it, my knowledge is limited to its cultural accomplishments, its literature and cinema, though I understand where you are coming from I simply don't know enough past the oil refineries, mob owned casinos, and sugar plantation to take a firm stand on who is right and wrong.

In response to your questions about the holocaust compensation. I think one key factor that you are missing is that the people receiving compensation were citizens of the state. The perpetrators children are not paying the victims children, in many cases it is the victims turning to their states and demanding some form of compensation for documented property, being anything from art to business to their homes.

I think in any event what compensation has been payed out is already the bulk of what will be payed out. There is no victim mentality that is found throughout the Jewish culture, for 2 millennium it was a fact of life, and the way to counter it has always been through education and success. Israel does not survive on compensation from Europe due to its role in the genocide, it has a diversified economy with a high number of skilled workers, what money it can get for the survivors it gets, despite all of it I believe around a third of holocaust survivors in Israel live in poverty.

[LRPV]

Yeah, I mean jeez, it was just the Holocaust. Those survivors should just get over themselves, their victim mentality isn't fooling anyone.

:roll::roll::roll:

:backhand:


The thread originator asked for intelligent debate. If you can't contribute why try to troll and ruin a thread that touches on nerves but apart from Bia has been doing fairly well?

I see by your post number you probably haven't familiarised yourself with the rules..do us all a favour and read them.

[Stan187]

The thread originator asked for intelligent debate. If you can't contribute why try to troll and ruin a thread that touches on nerves but apart from Bia has been doing fairly well?

I see by your post number you probably haven't familiarised yourself with the rules..do us all a favour and read them.

I found the argument he tried to use insulting and not in the spirit of intelligent debate. My comment did not ruin a thread, it only highlighted how silly the expounded logic of the argument was.