ARKAN teh terrible

[INAT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M5ELxedHnA&feature=related
part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGNPj-PGMa0&feature=related
part1


Sorry if this is a problem with mods but it is interesting.

[1911-a1]

Thanks, It's an interesting documentary.
I have a Srpska Dobrovoljacka Garda patch :)

http://uppladdning.com/uploads/20080317_08.22.04_sdg.jpg

http://uppladdning.com/uploads/20080317_08.19.08_sdg6.jpg

http://uppladdning.com/uploads/20080317_08.26.06_20030411000306003.jpg

[Knez Eru]

Doesn't this belong in General Discussions and/or Photos & Videos?

2ndly, =\ I don't see why so many people glorify this man. Mafiosi and murderers and are not my idea of heroes...

Granted, I haven't watched the videos (not my idea of fun), but this holds true for many people in the diaspora and Serbia/RS.

[SrB-23Q]

i my slef dont know why some people glorify this man...sine he done more damage then good to the Serbian people

[evang]

He is one of the reasons Serbia is in so much crap now.

[Sanat-e-naft]

Filthy criminal.

[TopolA]

"Fight is hunting..."


Good Man...

[Kowakian ML]

i my slef dont know why some people glorify this man...sine he done more damage then good to the Serbian people

He is one of the reasons Serbia is in so much crap now.

Filthy criminal.
True.

He and people like him are personalization of everything bad in Serbian nation today. Petty filthy criminals who with their actions degraded everything Serb soldiers earned bleeding in trenches in past century.

[TopolA]

True.

He and people like him are personalization of everything bad in Serbian nation today. Petty filthy criminals who with their actions degraded everything Serb soldiers earned bleeding in trenches in past century.



hehehe and its always the cowards who spent the wars hiding in their basements, who accuse the true fighters after the wars conclusion...rofl

[ssal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M5ELxedHnA&feature=related
part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGNPj-PGMa0&feature=related
part1


Sorry if this is a problem with mods but it is interesting.

This is exactly why Serbs do not deserve to govern Kosovo/a today. If men like these, who are responsible for ethnic cleansing, mass-killings and destruction are idolized and glorified by Serbs, what indication is that of how they will govern Kosovo/a? What message do they send about how they will treat the people there? If the Serbs see it as just to kill and cleanse in order to revoke the miority's rights why should Albanians subject themselves to that?

[ronnieraygun]

Guys, damn near everyone who has followed this from the start agrees that Arkan was a brigand and war criminal, regardless of what side he was on. I appreciate INAT's posts, but discussing Arkan can only end badly for our board.

[Raptus_regaliter]

hehehe and its always the cowards who spent the wars hiding in their basements, who accuse the true fighters after the wars conclusion...rofl

You deserve repeated **** slaps about the head and neck.

[shatro]

Arkan was mafioso connected with DB. People like him did a lot harm to our country. My good friend was member of Tigers. Lost his life at age of 18, in some muddy Slavonian trench. :-(

[Ender Wiggin]

He was an idiot. Period. He fought for himself, not for serbia. He just used 'serb cause' for excuse. His father was Montenegrin, also. As was Milosevic too. Ironical, isn't it?

[KninGrad]

hehehe and its always the cowards who spent the wars hiding in their basements, who accuse the true fighters after the wars conclusion...rofl

Who is a true fighter??? Do u even know anything about Arkan??? U said u were from Krajina therefore u should know that Arkan was exiled from Krajina due to his "actions".

[KninGrad]

He was an idiot. Period. He fought for himself, not for serbia. He just used 'serb cause' for excuse. His father was Montenegrin, also. As was Milosevic too. Ironical, isn't it?

Montenegrin ??? If u studied the history of Serbia/Montenegro u would know that there is no difference between the two.

[Kowakian ML]

hehehe and its always the cowards who spent the wars hiding in their basements, who accuse the true fighters after the wars conclusion...roflI spent entire war in Croatia with my family from 1991 - 1995. in city of Petrinja, living in building 5 km from frontlines, one my uncle and cousin were killed. But yeah, at the time I was 6 - 9 years old...

Not to mention that almost all Serbs that I know hated him (Arkan) back them... and the stories I've heard from veterans... just plain sick what that bastard did.

[TopolA]

Well, the reason why we (the Serbs,) got our asses kicked so hard by everybody, was not because of Arkan, and what he allegedly did...


....its because of what millions more who were right there, did not do....

[Ender Wiggin]

He was petty criminal turned murderer turned war criminal, depicting himself as serbian hero, fighter for serb cause. So people starded identifying serbs with Arkan, Kardzic, Mladic. That is what kicked your arses in the end and it keeps kicking you. Which is not fair for generations of intelligent, capable, educated and good people that will suffer for their misdeeds, made in the name of serbs. They took whole nation as their hostage.

Ender

[TopolA]

He was petty criminal turned murderer turned war criminal, depicting himself as serbian hero, fighter for serb cause. So people starded identifying serbs with Arkan, Kardzic, Mladic. That is what kicked your arses in the end and it keeps kicking you. Which is not fair for generations of intelligent, capable, educated and good people that will suffer for their misdeeds, made in the name of serbs. They took whole nation as their hostage.

Ender

"took whole nation as their hostage"

Only one person did that my friend, and his name was Zlobo Milosevic...


...and the sad thing is many old Commies would still support him if he were around....

[Ender Wiggin]

Yes, i know. But slobo took it literally and those criminals took it figuratively, psychologicaly. They, in a way, borrowed serbian history, patriotism and pride and abused them in the end for their own selfish benefits. And pretty much poisoned nation in the process. They used serbian nation only as a vehicle to their eternal fame (or notoriety).

Ender

[TopolA]

Yes, i know. But slobo took it literally and those criminals took it figuratively, psychologicaly. They, in a way, borrowed serbian history, patriotism and pride and abused them in the end for their own selfish benefits. And pretty much poisoned nation in the process. They used serbian nation only as a vehicle to their eternal fame (or notoriety).

Ender

Oh whao, now there's an original, using the nations history, to make themselves prominent....:roll:

[Ender Wiggin]

Yes. Serbs had history before 1990, too. They had friends, they had 'traditional' allies and people like slobo and arkan ruined that. If you mention 'serb' to someone today, what do you think comes in mind first?

Ender

[Indiana Jones]

Thanks, It's an interesting documentary.
I have a Srpska Dobrovoljacka Garda patch :)

Jolly good son !
Christ.
There are a lot of VS, VSK and VRS units that are far more deserving of "having their patches collected", you know.

[Indiana Jones]

Well, the reason why we (the Serbs,) got our asses kicked so hard by everybody, was not because of Arkan, and what he allegedly did...


....its because of what millions more who were right there, did not do....
Just for clarification: Do we have to infer from this that you consider Arkans "alleged" conduct as exemplary ?

[INAT]

This is exactly why Serbs do not deserve to govern Kosovo/a today. If men like these, who are responsible for ethnic cleansing, mass-killings and destruction are idolized and glorified by Serbs, what indication is that of how they will govern Kosovo/a? What message do they send about how they will treat the people there? If the Serbs see it as just to kill and cleanse in order to revoke the miority's rights why should Albanians subject themselves to that?

By that reasoning the KLA do not deserve Kosovo right? No flame just asking.At least he did protect Serbs. The Muslims have Oric we had him and the Croats hade Ceku now in Kosmet.:bash:

[Lokos]

Well, the reason why we (the Serbs,) got our asses kicked so hard by everybody,

I don't recall having our 'asses kicked so hard' by anybody, let alone everybody.

Lokos

[TopolA]

I don't recall having our 'asses kicked so hard' by anybody, let alone everybody.

Lokos


Don't know which rock you came from under, but in case you did not, where is Knin, where is Pristina, whats going on with RS???


Learn more about the war accounts in RSK 91-95, not many victories uh?? Losing almost everything, after holding most of Bosnia??? Bombed back into the 19th century, and then losing Kosovo...

Not many victories there buddy, actually NONE, all losses...people should learn to deal with this, and learn why it happened...

[Knez Eru]

:roll:

You do know that Lokos served in '99, right?

[Commander Shepard]

I don't recall having our 'asses kicked so hard' by anybody, let alone everybody.

Lokos

So we're just going to skip over Republika Srpska Krajina then eh?

[TopolA]

:roll:

You do know that Lokos served in '99, right?

First of all, so what??!!???


Second of all, Lokos is not even a Serb, if you don't understand what I mean, read some of his older posts...


Remember Lokos???:)

[Lokos]

So we're just going to skip over Republika Srpska Krajina then eh?

And what's RSK? Serbia? Who's 'we'? Training up a force over four years that outnumbers its badly supplied, badly led, poorly trained and infrastructurally unsound opponent by a factor of four - and then celebrating a great victory when the inevitable happens and your overwhelmingly stronger professional army runs over the militia arrayed against it - doesn't signal 'asskicking' to me.

Same goes for the VRS, which was only marginally higher quality. None of these states fought Serbia. They fought Serbian enclaves that were outmanned, outcast and, ultimately, outgunned.


Learn more about the war accounts in RSK 91-95, not many victories uh?? Losing almost everything, after holding most of Bosnia??? Bombed back into the 19th century, and then losing Kosovo...


How was the pathetic Serbian enclave in Krajina ever going to hold out against a concerted effort by the Croat state to retake it, if Serbia itself offered no support? Fully mobilized, VRSK could field maybe 50,000 men. At its zenith. Untrained, for the most part - excepting the half-assed training given to everybody during their vojni rok in the old Yugoslavia. The Croats fielded a largely professional army of 200,000 in 1995.


Losing almost everything, after holding most of Bosnia???

And how was VRS supposed to hold off the 120,000 man Bosniak army, in addition to the Guards Brigades of the Croatian army, and their local auxilliaries, considering how much territory they had to defend and occupy? I remind you that, at its height, the VRS numbered no more than 80,000 effectives. In the real world, when outnumbered two to one, and your opponent has both the initiative and the ability to use interior lines to concentrate forces, one does not expend all available resources holding on to territory uselessly.

The VRS, when pressed, withdrew in order to maintain combat effectiveness. It retained the ability (right up until the end of the war) to defeat Armija forces in a stand-up battle. However, the Croatian professional forces were more than a match for the badly undermanned VRS - there were no local reserves to plug gaps, and ammunition and heavy weaponry was dwindling by 1995. It should be noted that the Croatian auxilliaries could not cope in battle with average quality VRS units. But let's get something straight; it was a brutal, bloody war, and the VRS inflicted much higher casualties on its enemies than it suffered. There was no 'asskicking'.


and then losing Kosovo...

I fought in Kosovo. I don't remember having my ass kicked by anyone. None of the men who were there with me felt defeated. What do you think you know about Kosovo?


Second of all, Lokos is not even a Serb, if you don't understand what I mean, read some of his older posts...


Remember Lokos???

No, I don't remember. Of course I'm a Serb, you buffoon. Perhaps you're referring to my lack of religion. If that's a problem for you, go jump off a bridge. Unlike you, I gave something for my country. What were you doing in '99?

Lokos

[TopolA]

And what's RSK? Serbia? Who's 'we'? Training up a force over four years that outnumbers its badly supplied, badly led, poorly trained and infrastructurally unsound opponent by a factor of four - and then celebrating a great victory when the inevitable happens and your overwhelmingly stronger professional army runs over the militia arrayed against it - doesn't signal 'asskicking' to me.

Same goes for the VRS, which was only marginally higher quality. None of these states fought Serbia. They fought Serbian enclaves that were outmanned, outcast and, ultimately, outgunned.



How was the pathetic Serbian enclave in Krajina ever going to hold out against a concerted effort by the Croat state to retake it, if Serbia itself offered no support? Fully mobilized, VRSK could field maybe 50,000 men. At its zenith. Untrained, for the most part - excepting the half-assed training given to everybody during their vojni rok in the old Yugoslavia. The Croats fielded a largely professional army of 200,000 in 1995.



And how was VRS supposed to hold off the 120,000 man Bosniak army, in addition to the Guards Brigades of the Croatian army, and their local auxilliaries, considering how much territory they had to defend and occupy? I remind you that, at its height, the VRS numbered no more than 80,000 effectives. In the real world, when outnumbered two to one, and your opponent has both the initiative and the ability to use interior lines to concentrate forces, one does not expend all available resources holding on to territory uselessly.

The VRS, when pressed, withdrew in order to maintain combat effectiveness. It retained the ability (right up until the end of the war) to defeat Armija forces in a stand-up battle. However, the Croatian professional forces were more than a match for the badly undermanned VRS - there were no local reserves to plug gaps, and ammunition and heavy weaponry was dwindling by 1995. It should be noted that the Croatian auxilliaries could not cope in battle with average quality VRS units. But let's get something straight; it was a brutal, bloody war, and the VRS inflicted much higher casualties on its enemies than it suffered. There was no 'asskicking'.



I fought in Kosovo. I don't remember having my ass kicked by anyone. None of the men who were there with me felt defeated. What do you think you know about Kosovo?



No, I don't remember. Of course I'm a Serb, you buffoon. Perhaps you're referring to my lack of religion. If that's a problem for you, go jump off a bridge. Unlike you, I gave something for my country. What were you doing in '99?

Lokos


How pathetic you make your dumb arguments, remember that it does not matter if you win by an inch or a mile, all that matters is that you win...


So fighting outnumbered, and ultimately losing, is somehow a victory for you??!!?

And nobody really how you felt "fighting" in Kosovo, because ultimately your dear president signed the peace treaty, and Kosovo was LOST forever...

And in 99, I was 10, so thankfully I didn't waste time on a hopeless cause..


Now you Lokos, can jump around like the village idiot that you are, celebrating your delusional "victories".....

[Lokos]

And in 99, I was 10, so thankfully I didn't waste time on a hopeless cause..

And you have the audacity to call yourself a Serb. Would you have stayed at home in 1389, too? Serbia was built on lost causes.


So fighting outnumbered, and ultimately losing, is somehow a victory for you??!!?

Fighting outnumbered, fighting well, and yet ultimately losing is neither a victory, nor is it an 'ass kicking', which implies that one is defeated soundly, easily and decisively. A lot of good men gave their lives - and sold them dearly - so that you still have a country to call home (or India, in your case). They suffered so you can squawk here and now about how they could never measure up to the 'golden generation'.

I've got news for you, clown. That 'golden generation' was also defeated in 1915 - our entire country was subjugated. The army itself only survived by retreating (i.e. what you call giving inches, miles etc) to Corfu (a Greek island) for a year. They fought gloriously, and they still lost.


And nobody really how you felt "fighting" in Kosovo, because ultimately your dear president

My 'dear' President? Are you sane? Do you even have an inkling of reason behind your thick, nineteen year old skull?

Congratulations, you've just been reported as a troll.

Lokos

[INAT]

Hey Lokos Topola or whatever is a terd and do not wat your time on his.
He is a little kid that thinks he knows something but does not.

[sreto]

And in 99, I was 10, so thankfully I didn't waste time on a hopeless cause..


Hopeless cause?Since when did fighting for your home and the life of your family is a hopeless cause. Man youd get an asskicking from any Serb who lost anybody in the war, including me. You best be of having tea with Natasa Kandic.

[SrB-23Q]

i agree with Lokos 100% in the last few posts

[1911-a1]

Jolly good son !
Christ.
There are a lot of VS, VSK and VRS units that are far more deserving of "having their patches collected", you know.

I do know that, and i have a lot of other patches. I just posted this one because this thread is about him.

[Paya]

I have a story about his SDG. My uncle was a volonteer for the SVK since '92. During the fights around Maslenica, his platoon was waiting for the Croatian onslaught in some village. They knew they were badly outnumbered and out gunned, so they were, quite understandably, filling their pants. Suddenly, trucks with the insignia of the SDG appeared. Naturally, the village defenders cheered, naively thinking that they just received reinforcements. That is, until Arkan's masked "terminators" got off their trucks, emptied the village houses of all things valuable (jewelry, TV's, even fridges), loaded them on their trucks, and went their merry way. The Croatian Army eventually attacked, and the unfortunate platoon withdrew with half their men killed or wounded.

'Nuff said.

[ssal]

By that reasoning the KLA do not deserve Kosovo right? No flame just asking.At least he did protect Serbs. The Muslims have Oric we had him and the Croats hade Ceku now in Kosmet.:bash:


Protect the Serbs?? His shady dealing hurt Serbs as much as helped them. For your own good you should stop supporting this man. You can't call names a dead man but if you could there would be a list a mile long for this man. He is what is seen as wrong with Serbia, he gives all Serbs a bad name, and continuous support for him does nothing but prove you deserve the names you are getting.

I don't care what ethnicity you are, supporting war-criminals that fight a "dirty" war, be they Serbian, Croats or Albanian, shows lack of common sense. Soldier's business is with other soldiers, not civilians, there is no honor in fighting the defenseless.

[Peris]

''In August 1998, when tensions over Kosovo had already begun, Arkan tried to get close to the West (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_World), writing a letter of support to U.S. president (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._president) Bill Clinton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton) over the bombings of U.S. Embassies in Kenya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenya) and Tanzania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzania). In the letter he expressed condolences for the victims that died in the attack, and warned Clinton of the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_fundamentalism). An excerpt from his letter reads: "Mr President… do not allow that terrorism continues in this part of Balkan in the Serbian state, which is forever a friend of your state." Clinton ignored him and never responded to the letter.''

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BDeljko_Ra%C5%BEnatovi%C4%87#Early_life_and_Career







any chance to find and read this letter?

[KninGrad]

So we're just going to skip over Republika Srpska Krajina then eh?


Serbs did not get their asses kicked in Krajina...it is a shame to say but Croats took over Krajina without any fight...we had significantly bigger battles with Croats prior to that and they could not do **** to us...The reason for fall of Krajina is of political nature

[KninGrad]

And what's RSK? Serbia? Who's 'we'? Training up a force over four years that outnumbers its badly supplied, badly led, poorly trained and infrastructurally unsound opponent by a factor of four - and then celebrating a great victory when the inevitable happens and your overwhelmingly stronger professional army runs over the militia arrayed against it - doesn't signal 'asskicking' to me.

Same goes for the VRS, which was only marginally higher quality. None of these states fought Serbia. They fought Serbian enclaves that were outmanned, outcast and, ultimately, outgunned.



How was the pathetic Serbian enclave in Krajina ever going to hold out against a concerted effort by the Croat state to retake it, if Serbia itself offered no support? Fully mobilized, VRSK could field maybe 50,000 men. At its zenith. Untrained, for the most part - excepting the half-assed training given to everybody during their vojni rok in the old Yugoslavia. The Croats fielded a largely professional army of 200,000 in 1995.



And how was VRS supposed to hold off the 120,000 man Bosniak army, in addition to the Guards Brigades of the Croatian army, and their local auxilliaries, considering how much territory they had to defend and occupy? I remind you that, at its height, the VRS numbered no more than 80,000 effectives. In the real world, when outnumbered two to one, and your opponent has both the initiative and the ability to use interior lines to concentrate forces, one does not expend all available resources holding on to territory uselessly.

The VRS, when pressed, withdrew in order to maintain combat effectiveness. It retained the ability (right up until the end of the war) to defeat Armija forces in a stand-up battle. However, the Croatian professional forces were more than a match for the badly undermanned VRS - there were no local reserves to plug gaps, and ammunition and heavy weaponry was dwindling by 1995. It should be noted that the Croatian auxilliaries could not cope in battle with average quality VRS units. But let's get something straight; it was a brutal, bloody war, and the VRS inflicted much higher casualties on its enemies than it suffered. There was no 'asskicking'.



I fought in Kosovo. I don't remember having my ass kicked by anyone. None of the men who were there with me felt defeated. What do you think you know about Kosovo?



No, I don't remember. Of course I'm a Serb, you buffoon. Perhaps you're referring to my lack of religion. If that's a problem for you, go jump off a bridge. Unlike you, I gave something for my country. What were you doing in '99?

Lokos

I like reading your posts because unlike majority of people here u know a lot about Balkans.
Also what you forgot to mention is that NATO was militarily supporting both Croats and "Bosniaks".
I dont know if u are familiar with this event but Serbs in Krajina had to send all rocket systems and stuff like that to Serbia prior to Oluja. Also in many places where we managed to hold off Croatian forces it was ordered to retreat and every thought of bombing Zagreb was impossible. These are all instructions made by Belgrade. Lord Owen confirmed that Serbs in Krajina were betrayed by Milosevic who planned to keep Eastern Slavonija and Bosnia but give away Krajina to Croats.

ps At that time he was in diapers.

[V.I.D.]

Protect the Serbs?? His shady dealing hurt Serbs as much as helped them. For your own good you should stop supporting this man. You can't call names a dead man but if you could there would be a list a mile long for this man. He is what is seen as wrong with Serbia, he gives all Serbs a bad name, and continuous support for him does nothing but prove you deserve the names you are getting.

I don't care what ethnicity you are, supporting war-criminals that fight a "dirty" war, be they Serbian, Croats or Albanian, shows lack of common sense. Soldier's business is with other soldiers, not civilians, there is no honor in fighting the defenseless.
__________________________________________________________________

I completely agree, although it would be nice to know what do you think of Thaci and other "politicians" in charge of Albanian part of Kosovo today? Please, tell me that you don't think any better of him than of Arkan or any other piece of s...t like that.

Lokos, you're so much more intelligent and mature than that stupid & pathetic kid whose avatar tells me just about enough I need to know. He needs to learn a lot more about Serbian history to be able to call himself one. As I always say, the Serbs I'm proud of are the likes of Nikola Tesla, Borislav Pekic, Ivo Andric, Generals Misic and Putnik and not those who glorify scumbags such as Arkan, Milosevic, or Karadzic. I truly feel sad for those who think "well, their war criminal/heroes are at large, so should be ours, too". In my "dictionary" being a Serb is an honor and not a display of primitivism.

[Josip Broz]

Montenegrin ??? If u studied the history of Serbia/Montenegro u would know that there is no difference between the two.


Huh!!??!! Obviously you didn't study history or politics? Kind of a big differece between the two.

[Josip Broz]

Yes. Serbs had history before 1990, too. They had friends, they had 'traditional' allies and people like slobo and arkan ruined that. If you mention 'serb' to someone today, what do you think comes in mind first?

Ender


I would not agree. I would say everybody had something to do with it.

Actually, now that I look at it, I would almost be forthright and say, looks like there was no history between the end of WWII and the 1990's. Everyone hated each other all along, they just hid it real well because that foreign money was coming in in bucket loads. Once the money stopped, everyone showed their true colors.

[SrB-23Q]

Huh!!??!! Obviously you didn't study history or politics? Kind of a big differece between the two.

Obviously u didnt study history..if u did u might have found out that Montenegro was a Serbian state which with held Ottoman agression longer then all the other Serbian states...so KninGrad is right

[SrB-23Q]

and im surprised hearing this from someone who is from Serbia:roll:

[INAT]

[quote=SrB-23Q;3119665]and im surprised hearing this from someone who is from Serbia:roll:[/quot



don't mind him there are real and fake Serbs.Just how it is.

[Ender Wiggin]

don't mind him there are real and fake Serbs.Just how it is.


So, what constitutes real and what fake serbs? Who is real and who is fake?

[Royal]

TopolA has gone back preko puta to whichever part of the diaspora he crawled from. Permenantly.

Let's keep this on track - as, to my surprise with the expection noted above, it has stayed.

Just to cheer everyone up - the only good thing Zeljko Raznatovic did in his miserable life :)

http://www.jaunted.com/files/admin/ceca.jpg

[sreto]

Didnt he shave her head for signing in a bar owned by a muslim or something along those lines?


So, what constitutes real and what fake serbs? Who is real and who is fake?

Its not so much real and fake, but Josip Broz is clearly a Yugo nostalgic, rather than a Serb.

[Nebelwerfer.]

we had significantly bigger battles with Croats prior to that and they could not do **** to us...The reason for fall of Krajina is of political nature

And what battles would that be? Please do tell...

[SrB-23Q]

And what battles would that be? Please do tell...
Zeleni Rast for 1p-)

but this is all off topic so lets not go into this here
im sure theres another thread about the war in Krajina

[VRS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M5ELxedHnA&feature=related
part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGNPj-PGMa0&feature=related
part1


Sorry if this is a problem with mods but it is interesting.

Ne znam koji kurac postavljas ovo sranje??!!!:cantbeli:

Anyway, these videos are BS. I am not disputing that his units committed crimes, but cutting unborn babies out of their mothers' wombs, raping women in front of their familes...:roll: What is next? He was Attila reincarnated and SDG was an army of Huns bound on destroying any sign of humanity and civilization. Characters and units like Oric, Al-Mujahid and Gotovina were much worse yet there are no documentaries about them. I wonder why?:roll:

[Crna Strela]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion (hopefully thoroughly researched, not just CNN (Comedy News Network).

I signed Arkans book next to his grave and thanked him for being the last out of Bosanska Krajina while the Serbs withdrew from Mrkonjic Grad and Sipovo .. this saved my Grand Mothers life. My uncle was a captain in that region and never spoke a bad word about Arkans men and praised their actions in holding the line while civilians and the RS army (his unit included) withdrew as the Croats looted and burned everything they came across.

The RS army in that region were outgunned once the US gave Croats support, Chinooks were dropping tanks on hills around Sipovo pounding the city - Arkan held Mrkonjic Grad until all the civilians were evacuated and then pulled back to the canyon just before Banja Luka where they had the high ground and thats where the Croats stopped and Dayton was signed.

After Dayton and when the Serbs eventually returned to Sipovo - they found the croats left a video tape at the police station. On the tape they filmed themselves entering and taking those 2 towns without a shot fired in anger. As expected they didnt film any of the looting !

Just my 2cents

[Nebelwerfer.]

Zeleni Rast for 1p-)

but this is all off topic so lets not go into this here
im sure theres another thread about the war in Krajina

Zeleni what? With all my efforts I couldn't find single site talking about this battle. Could you provide me with a link, I'm very much interested...

As for KninGrad's nonsense, I can name at least 5 battles and operations that were carried out before Oluja which ended in Croatian victory.

[Nebelwerfer.]

The RS army in that region were outgunned once the US gave Croats support, Chinooks were dropping tanks on hills around Sipovo pounding the city

1) Chinook cannot carry a tank
2) Chinook's never saw action in those operations...

[VRS]

The RS army in that region were outgunned once the US gave Croats support, Chinooks were dropping tanks on hills around Sipovo pounding the city - Arkan held Mrkonjic Grad until all the civilians were evacuated and then pulled back to the canyon just before Banja Luka where they had the high ground and thats where the Croats stopped and Dayton was signed. Needles to say, as already pointed out Chinook cannot airlift a tank. Mi-24s were used in that operation, but very cautiously and unsuccessfully due to a great number of Pragas around. Arkan did not hold Mrkonjic. It was 7th. Mechanized Kupres Brigade, 3rd. Infantry Brigade and 11th. Light Infantry Brigade from Mrkonjic, with some additional units from MUP and 10th. Infantry Division. Nobody waited for civilians to pull back as they were all gone by the mid September. Those units organized a counterattack which was stopped partly by the retreat of 5th. Kozara Brigade from their right flank and partly because someone stopped the flow of ammo from Banja Luka. After that all went down the toilet and those spearheading the counterattack were caught without ammo. Some were captured and latter hammered in their heads and some managed to escape. Arkan was around Prijedor at the time.


After Dayton and when the Serbs eventually returned to Sipovo - they found the croats left a video tape at the police station. On the tape they filmed themselves entering and taking those 2 towns without a shot fired in anger. As expected they didnt film any of the looting !

Just my 2cents Sipovo and Jajce did fall almost with no shot fired. What is interesting is that VRS managed to stop a larger Muslim offensive from Gornji Vakuf just a month before that, and then these cities fell with almost no fight...I guess just another proof of the shady dealings of Karadzic and the scum in SDS. Too bad many good guys paid with their lives for that.:-(

[SrB-23Q]

Zeleni what? With all my efforts I couldn't find single site talking about this battle. Could you provide me with a link, I'm very much interested...

As for KninGrad's nonsense, I can name at least 5 battles and operations that were carried out before Oluja which ended in Croatian victory.

Zeleni Rast is the region called around the little town of Islam Latinski
ohh and theres Probijanje Koridora and Aerobaza near Zadar. Theres planty of battle on both sides but like i said before it is useless discuasing it at all let alone in this thread that has nothing to do with it

[Mastermind]

The war in that area between the Muslims and the Christians has been raging how long now? A thousand years? Longer?

I read a short history of what happened in Serbia just before WWII...ubelievable cruelty as the Muslims sided with the Nazis. Makes your stomach churn at the things they did. And looking back further, we see such cruelties exercised by both sides throughout the entire history...since the days of Sulemain and Vlad...I have absolutely no doubt, the Serbs were extraoridarily cruel and brutal. Everyone there believes in a payback philosophy. The trouble is, no one really knows now what they are exercising retribution for...it's devolved into a quagmire of inhuman horror.

I really do not see an end to the conflict. Not now, not ever....unless every human being is scraped off the land there.

[zg18]

A thousand years?


If you look this conflict from 1071 (Battle of Manzikert)-yes,but in Balkans about 600-700 years.

[E-2]

close this sh*t

[SrB-23Q]

i reckon its like totally off topic

[Andreas]

The war in that area between the Muslims and the Christians has been raging how long now? A thousand years? Longer?

I read a short history of what happened in Serbia just before WWII...ubelievable cruelty as the Muslims sided with the Nazis. Makes your stomach churn at the things they did. And looking back further, we see such cruelties exercised by both sides throughout the entire history...since the days of Sulemain and Vlad...I have absolutely no doubt, the Serbs were extraoridarily cruel and brutal. Everyone there believes in a payback philosophy. The trouble is, no one really knows now what they are exercising retribution for...it's devolved into a quagmire of inhuman horror.

I really do not see an end to the conflict. Not now, not ever....unless every human being is scraped off the land there.

Well spoken, this pretty much sums up my perception of the Balkan conflict(s)

[RWR]

I read a short history of what happened in Serbia just before WWII...ubelievable cruelty as the Muslims sided with the Nazis.What Nazi teror in Serbia before WWII?

As for Arkan...war criminal and terrorist.Only thing that his unit was capable for was killing and raping civillians and looting.

One picture is worth thousand words.
Arkan's unit in action...

http://www.unsentimiento.cl/imagenes/PoliticayFutbol/ARKAN2.JPG

http://www.bnbo.de/slikeporuke/dani%20zlocina%20u%20Bijeljini.jpg

http://www.zamislisrbiju.org/foto/idc_foto_03/images/2-Bijeljina%2092.jpg

[KoTeMoRe]

Well spoken, this pretty much sums up my perception of the Balkan conflict(s)

Muslim/Christian is a very peculiar viewpoint and a simplistic one.

Wars in Yugoslavia have more to do with a very extreme "esprit de clocher" rather than some civilization clash. The solution is very easy. And would mean a complete recognition of the neighbour as a very lasting reality.

That works pretty well with calm, wise and brave people. Works a tad less when the composite system is overthrown by chauvinism.

We're not worse than some back in the history. And coming from an atheistic passage could have been a great asset into the pacification process, but...beyond local stupidity outer ideas helped the snowball rolling downwards.

[1911-a1]

^

The first pic, it looks like the soldier is holding two guns and showing them to the camera. What if the "civilian" was armed and tried to shoot at them or something?

[KoTeMoRe]

^

The first pic, it looks like the soldier is holding two guns and showing them to the camera. What if the "civilian" was armed and tried to shoot at them or something?

Don't be stupid, what would you do when a dozen of armed men come towards your neighbourhood with a very specific intent.p-)

Those weapons could have been into his home...

[1911-a1]

Don't be stupid, what would you do when a dozen of armed men come towards your neighbourhood with a very specific intent.p-)

Those weapons could have been into his home...

Im not being stupid, and I understand if he tried to defend himself. But still, if he wants to defend himself with weapons, they should see him as a threat right? Im sure civilians got killed sometimes, but in that pic it looks like they found some armed guy.

[Commander Shepard]

How was the pathetic Serbian enclave in Krajina ever going to hold out against a concerted effort by the Croat state to retake it, if Serbia itself offered no support?
Lokos

I sure do appreciate being called pathetic. Unfortunately that attitude was typical among Serbians at the time, and foreshadowed what our treatment was going to be once in Serbia.

[RWR]

^

The first pic, it looks like the soldier is holding two guns and showing them to the camera. What if the "civilian" was armed and tried to shoot at them or something?

Yeah..sure.

:roll:

[KoTeMoRe]

Im not being stupid, and I understand if he tried to defend himself. But still, if he wants to defend himself with weapons, they should see him as a threat right? Im sure civilians got killed sometimes, but in that pic it looks like they found some armed guy.

Irregulars don't have any authority. Their actions were illegal period.

[RWR]

Im not being stupid, and I understand if he tried to defend himself. But still, if he wants to defend himself with weapons, they should see him as a threat right? Im sure civilians got killed sometimes, but in that pic it looks like they found some armed guy.

Photos are form Bijeljina.
Ron Haviv, the photorapher that shot this photos has this to say about them...


Bijeljina was the first town in Bosnia to come under attack by Bosnian Serb forces and Serbian paramilitaries, on April 1, 1992, and Haviv was there. His pictures were a warning to the world of what was about to unfold, and in particular the effort of a brave man to send the world testimony to the importance of documenting what is happening but shouldn't..

''They were going house to house, looking for fighters and things to take,'' Mr. Haviv remembered. ''Inside a mosque, they had taken down the Islamic flag and were holding it like a trophy. They had a guy, they said he was a fundamentalist from Kosovo. He was begging for his life.

''There was shouting outside. They had taken the town butcher and his wife, and they were screaming. They shot him, and he was lying there.

''The soldiers were shouting in Serbian, 'No pictures, no pictures.'

''I felt like I had to photograph it. There was a truck that had crashed nearby. I got between the cab and the body and turned my back so the soldiers couldn't see me. They shot the woman, then they brought out her sister and shot her.

''I was trying to think as clearly as possible. It was incredibly important for evidence to try to get the soldiers with the bodies in the same picture. I framed it, I was probably about 30 feet away.

''There were the two soldiers. Another came from my left, he had a cigarette in one hand and sunglasses on top of his head. When he kicked her, it was like the ultimate disrespect for everything.''

''I was very happy when the pictures were published,'' he said. ''It was a week before the first shots were fired in Sarajevo. There were lots of reports from journalists, diplomats, spies, everybody, that Bosnia was going to be very bad. I thought these pictures would provide a final push, so the world would stop this. But obviously nothing happened. It was really incredibly disappointing.

Bijeljina was the first warning of what was going to happen and Ron Haviv's insistence that he wasn't going to allow what had happened to him in Vukovar happen again here sadly wasn't echoed in Europe's response to the situation. Apparently Arkan ordered Haviv to hand over his films and Haviv managed to distract him and get away with only giving him the two films actually in his cameras.

http://photoarts.com/haviv/

[Pleonasm]

I sure do appreciate being called pathetic. Unfortunately that attitude was typical among Serbians at the time, and foreshadowed what our treatment was going to be once in Serbia.Come on, how would you characterize the RSK at that time?

[1911-a1]

RWR: Im not talking about the other pictures. I said that it looked like they found a guy with weapons, thats all. I didn't say that all civilians who got killed were armed.

[BW2]

Come on, how would you characterize the RSK at that time? Betrayed...

[AK70B]

What do you think with “Serbs don’t deserve to govern Kosovo”? Serbia won Kosovo from Byzantine Empire in 1208; Serbian history and culture were born there. In 1912 after brake of Ottoman Empire League of Ambassadors confirmed that Kosovo is integral part of Serbia. When they now say that they are majority it is because tens of thousands of Serbs were killed during and after WW2 and because average woman on Kosovo delivering one child a year. Average family has 7 – 8 kids. Like everywhere else they want to overpopulate other religions and they are not in rush, they live on different time line than rest of the world. All of this wouldn’t be possible without corrupted politicians from US and Western Europe: they have received lot of money from Albanian Mafia to push for Kosovo’s independence. Milosevic committed crimes against people on Kosovo and Serbia was brutally penalized for that; new government arrested Milosevic and sent to War Crimes Tribunal. What else had to be done? But did you ever heard about thousands of Serbian graves and monuments destroyed and about hundreds of Serbian Churches burned down in last 10 years and thousand of Serbian civilians killed or forced to leave land where they were born? Kosovo is Serbian land and that is no international law that can justified so called independence.


This is exactly why Serbs do not deserve to govern Kosovo/a today. If men like these, who are responsible for ethnic cleansing, mass-killings and destruction are idolized and glorified by Serbs, what indication is that of how they will govern Kosovo/a? What message do they send about how they will treat the people there? If the Serbs see it as just to kill and cleanse in order to revoke the miority's rights why should Albanians subject themselves to that?

[Lokos]

I sure do appreciate being called pathetic. Unfortunately that attitude was typical among Serbians at the time, and foreshadowed what our treatment was going to be once in Serbia.

Bitter, are we? I would be too. But, surely, one could sense that my usage of the term 'pathetic' was a matter of relative characterization. It was 'pathetic', because it was small, unable to offer concerted resistance and reliant on a stronger power (i.e. Serbia itself) that found itself unable to offer any serious support. There were no victories in 1995 in Krajina for a very simple reason; there couldn't be. Excepting small-scale, tactical successes, outright victories were made nigh-impossible by the opposing force being superior both quantitatively and qualitatively. This is not a recipe for success, barring a miracle.

I'm sorry you suffered from poor treatment in Serbia.

Here is a note of support from a group of patriots some of us know as Riblja Corba:


Gradimo Euro*****
Euro***** gradi nas

Beograde, Beograde
u bodljikave zice nek' te ograde
da ne udju izbeglice
velike su izelice

Izaci ce na ulice
pomerice nam guzice
Beograde, Beograde
nek' idu kuci, lepse je bez njih


Lokos

[The One and Only]

^

The first pic, it looks like the soldier is holding two guns and showing them to the camera. What if the "civilian" was armed and tried to shoot at them or something?

r u serious ?? we all know that those civilians were NOT ARMED, those pictures actually went ALL and AROUND THE WORLD, many people were disgusted by Arkan's actions.

[The One and Only]

http://www.unsentimiento.cl/imagenes/PoliticayFutbol/ARKAN2.JPG

The story behind this picture is that this Bosnian Muslim man was begging for his life, there were a total of 3 pictures of this man, this 1st one is this, the 2nd shows another Chetnik dumping a bottle of water on him, the 3rd one shows him laying on the ground face down dead after being thrown of a 10 story building, now do u think that this man was trying to protect himself ? damn right he was, look at what happend to him in the end ..... case closed...

[Lokos]

the 2nd shows another Chetnik dumping

What, exactly, is your definition of a Chetnik? I often see Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks using that term to describe all Serbs. If that is how you are using it, I suggest you refrain in the future. In that context, it's offensive, and will be reported.

Lokos

[sreto]

Well, Chetnik = Paramilitary soldier who is a Serb , therefore Chetnik = Serb soldier. We all know Serb soldiers are genocidal maniacs, so we can safely assume that Serb soldiers are indeed Serbs. That leads us to one conclusion that Chetniks = Serbs and Serbs are genocidal.

[RWR]

Well, Chetnik = Paramilitary soldier who is a Serb , therefore Chetnik = Serb soldier. We all know Serb soldiers are genocidal maniacs, so we can safely assume that Serb soldiers are indeed Serbs. That leads us to one conclusion that Chetniks = Serbs and Serbs are genocidal.

You are wrong...not all Serbs are chetniks, but all chetniks are Serb.
Don't insult honest Serbs.
These are chetniks and their "handiwork".

http://www.zamislisrbiju.org/foto/idc_foto_03/images/03_Srebrenica.jpg

http://www.zamislisrbiju.org/foto/idc_foto_03/images/09_Srebrenica.jpg

http://www.zamislisrbiju.org/foto/idc_foto_11/images/017_IMG.JPG

[Lokos]

These are chetniks and their "handiwork".

What if I say that I'm a chetnik, and I am insulted that you put me in the same category as certain individuals and formations fighting on the Serb side in the Yugoslav Succession Wars? For me - and many others - chetnik is not a term of abuse, nor is it derrogatory. You using it like a term of abuse is offensive. Refrain. Or you will be reported. That simple.


Don't insult honest Serbs.

And who are these 'honest Serbs'? Your nonsense is transparent and disgusting.

Lokos

[Pleonasm]

[...]
And who are these 'honest Serbs'?[...]The followers of Cedomir Jovanovic and Natasa Kandic, obviously.

[Pleonasm]

Betrayed...Sory, Bluewings, I didn't see your post. Betrayed? I.e. left unsupported in front of the Croatian offensive? Probably, but what was the alternative? The war for the Krajina was lost in 1995 anyway and any intervention by the then FRY would have made things only worse. The mistakes were done in 1989-1992 and not in 1995.

[sreto]

You are wrong...not all Serbs are chetniks, but all chetniks are Serb.Don't insult honest Serbs.

How am I insulting honest Serbs. The Bosniaks or Bosnian Muslims (whichever you prefer) and Croats, seem to label every Serb soldier as a 'chetnik'. When one says he fought for VRS or VJ he is automatically branded a 'chetnik' by freedom loving, human right advocating Bosniaks and Croats. But what you really dont seem to realize, most of those 'chetniks' dont really mind being called 'chetniks'. If you are going to try and use a derogatory term towards Serbs, you might aswell use 'vlah'.


The followers of Cedormir Jovanovic and Natasa Kandic, obviously.

Yep, I remember once Natasa Kandic (dog of a person she is) actually went to visit a Serb family who lost their son to Albanians in Kosovo and had the nerve to say that "it wasn't Albanians who killed your son, it was extremists on both sides". It didn't go down well for her.

[cinoeye]

If all Serbs are Chetniks, than it will be true to say all Croats ara NAzi Ustashe, and all Bosnian Muslims are Mujahedins?
(EVen tough I think some people have no idea where and how term CHetnik was created)

[KoTeMoRe]

What if I say that I'm a chetnik, and I am insulted that you put me in the same category as certain individuals and formations fighting on the Serb side in the Yugoslav Succession Wars? For me - and many others - chetnik is not a term of abuse, nor is it derrogatory. You using it like a term of abuse is offensive. Refrain. Or you will be reported. That simple.



And who are these 'honest Serbs'? Your nonsense is transparent and disgusting.

Lokos

Mhh remember you're a godless Serb...like i'm a non serb-hater Albanian. You're a paradox.

Furthermore don't get upset it's not good for your wrinkles.

[BW2]

Sory, Bluewings, I didn't see your post. Betrayed? I.e. left unsupported in front of the Croatian offensive? Probably, but what was the alternative? The war for the Krajina was lost in 1995 anyway and any intervention by the then FRY would have made things only worse. The mistakes were done in 1989-1992 and not in 1995. Oh I fully agree, no argument there. FRY was clearly to slow not to mention lack of planning and organization, it should have been instantaneous when RSK declared independence and shown full support of it. In fact any trace of Yugoslavia should have ended then and there, non of the FRY stuff after the wars. Instead RSK established a government and its own currency instead of integrating with FRY and RS.

As for the whole Chetnik thing, totally used in the wrong context. A Chetnik equals a rebel soldier who's loyalty lies with the king, unless I have been totally oblivious during the last decade what king has Serbia had exactly to fight for? Not one individual in the Bosnian war would qualify for that title no mater how much they were convinced they deserved it.

[RWR]

Not one individual in the Bosnian war would qualify for that title no mater how much they were convinced they deserved it.

Not even him?
Chetnik Duke (official title) Slavko Aleksic in Sarajevo suburb of Grbavica with his unit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzi8aHBZ4UI

[Commander Shepard]

Bitter, are we? I would be too.
Bitter? Hardly, I am quite happy to have left. My life right now is far better than it ever could have been in the Balkans, in any capacity. So I guess you could say I am in fact grateful. ;)


But, surely, one could sense that my usage of the term 'pathetic' was a matter of relative characterization. It was 'pathetic', because it was small, unable to offer concerted resistance and reliant on a stronger power (i.e. Serbia itself) that found itself unable to offer any serious support. There were no victories in 1995 in Krajina for a very simple reason; there couldn't be. Excepting small-scale, tactical successes, outright victories were made nigh-impossible by the opposing force being superior both quantitatively and qualitatively. This is not a recipe for success, barring a miracle.I was wrong about your comment, it is clear to me that you did not mean it in a derogatory sense. One can never be sure with these threads, you know?

As for the untenable situation of RSK during the war, frankly I am surprised anyone lived through that affair.


I'm sorry you suffered from poor treatment in Serbia.

Here is a note of support from a group of patriots some of us know as Riblja Corba:No need to apologize, what is done is done.

The song is quite appropriate, thank you.

[Pleonasm]

Oh I fully agree, no argument there. FRY was clearly to slow not to mention lack of planning and organization, it should have been instantaneous when RSK declared independence and shown full support of it. In fact any trace of Yugoslavia should have ended then and there, non of the FRY stuff after the wars. Instead RSK established a government and its own currency instead of integrating with FRY and RS.

As for the whole Chetnik thing, totally used in the wrong context. A Chetnik equals a rebel soldier who's loyalty lies with the king, unless I have been totally oblivious during the last decade what king has Serbia had exactly to fight for? Not one individual in the Bosnian war would qualify for that title no mater how much they were convinced they deserved it.
You forgot Crown Prince Alexander. p-)

[Skutatos]

What do you think with “Serbs don’t deserve to govern Kosovo”? Serbia won Kosovo from Byzantine Empire in 1208; Serbian history and culture were born there. In 1912 after brake of Ottoman Empire League of Ambassadors confirmed that Kosovo is integral part of Serbia. When they now say that they are majority it is because tens of thousands of Serbs were killed during and after WW2 and because average woman on Kosovo delivering one child a year. Average family has 7 – 8 kids. Like everywhere else they want to overpopulate other religions and they are not in rush, they live on different time line than rest of the world. All of this wouldn’t be possible without corrupted politicians from US and Western Europe: they have received lot of money from Albanian Mafia to push for Kosovo’s independence. Milosevic committed crimes against people on Kosovo and Serbia was brutally penalized for that; new government arrested Milosevic and sent to War Crimes Tribunal. What else had to be done? But did you ever heard about thousands of Serbian graves and monuments destroyed and about hundreds of Serbian Churches burned down in last 10 years and thousand of Serbian civilians killed or forced to leave land where they were born? Kosovo is Serbian land and that is no international law that can justified so called independence.


I would just like to point out that there wasn't a Byzantine Empire in 1208 as it was divided up by the 4th crusade into a number of individual states until the Byzantines were able to reconquer Constantinople and reclaim what was taken from them several decades later.

[BW2]

Not even him? Hardly, I hate Šešelj he's annoying, rude and utterly full of it, far from civilized to sum it up. As I said those so called Chetniks were fighting under a name for all the wrong reasons. Besides I despise irregulars, either let the army to deal with the situation and stay home or join the army and follow their rules.


You forgot Crown Prince Alexander. p-) LOL I admit but if I were in his shoes I would make myself known everyday and be totally active in Serbian affairs both the government and people. He has ties with other royal families in Europe, why hasn't he used that to help convince their countries to support Serbia on Kosovo? but hell we can pm ourselves about that, we don't wanna tread off topic.

[AK70B]

I would just like to point out that there wasn't a Byzantine Empire in 1208 as it was divided up by the 4th crusade into a number of individual states until the Byzantines were able to reconquer Constantinople and reclaim what was taken from them several decades later.
I understand what are you are saying and you are using correct historical facts but still the fact is that most historians consider that Byzantine Empire ended when Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople in 1453. Kosovo was conquered from Byzantine Empire by Serbian State named Raschka while under the rule of the Nemanjic Dynasty.

[valtrex]

I would just like to point out that there wasn't a Byzantine Empire in 1208 as it was divided up by the 4th crusade into a number of individual states until the Byzantines were able to reconquer Constantinople and reclaim what was taken from them several decades later.

The Despotate of Epirus (House of Dukas, 1204-1318), the Kingdom of Thessalonika (House of Dukas, 1230-1246), the Despotate of Thessaly (House of Dukas, 1271-1318), the Despotate of Moreas (House of Kantakuzenus, 1348-1383, House of Palaeologus, 1383-1460), the Empire of Trebizond (Grand Comneni, 1204-1461), the Empire of Nicaea (House of Lascaris, 1204-1261)

[AK70B]

r u serious ?? we all know that those civilians were NOT ARMED, those pictures actually went ALL and AROUND THE WORLD, many people were disgusted by Arkan's actions.
Many Serbs were and still are disgusted with Arkan’s, Seselj’s, Jovic’s and other criminals’ actions. At that time, unfortunately, most Serbs who didn’t support Milosevic and his criminals didn’t have a voice because these voices were suppressed and silenced. I am just curious why Croats and Bosnians never talk about their own crimes against Serbs. They were killing and torturing civilians on large scale as well but they do not want to talk about that. Why is that?
Because it is OK to kill Serbs on Bosnian or Croatian theritory?

[The One and Only]

What, exactly, is your definition of a Chetnik? I often see Bosnian Muslims/Bosniaks using that term to describe all Serbs. If that is how you are using it, I suggest you refrain in the future. In that context, it's offensive, and will be reported.

Lokos

Lokos i am sorrey that i offended u ??? but i wasnt trying to do that, when i ment Chetnik, i meant it as someone calling themselfs that, in that picture u see a SERB soldier with a patch on his right shoulder ??? can u tell us what that patch means ???? no flame bait here ok, just relax, i just wanna know what the meaning of it is, if i made u upset im sorrey...

[Lokos]

when i ment Chetnik, i meant it as someone calling themselfs that, in that picture u see a SERB soldier with a patch on his right shoulder ??? can u tell us what that patch means ????

You and I both know that some Bosniaks use Chetnik like some Serbs use 'balija'.

It is better that you refrain from using the term, altogether. If in doubt, you can use 'Serb paramilitary' or 'VRS personnel'. Personally, when discussing the Army of BiH, I call it Armija - as opposed to the Serbian VRS.

Lokos

[cinoeye]

when i ment Chetnik, i meant it as someone calling themselfs that, in that picture u see a SERB soldier with a patch on his right shoulder ??? can u tell us what that patch means ????


It is true, many Serbs call them self CHetniks, and even them did not have the real knowlige what does Cetnik means.

WHat pach are we talking about?
Term cetnik is created after armed irregulars who had organised to attack the Ottoman Turks in the XIXth century.
During the WW2 Serbian anti-nazi units named them selfs Chetniks again. The most important were those organized in the Ravna Gora district of western Serbia under Colonel Dragoljub (Draza) Mihailović. Mihailović directed his units to avoid large-scale fighting with the Germans (who exacted horrible reprisals for every act of resistance) and to wait for an Allied invasion that would liberate Yugoslavia and restore the monarchy. This cautious strategy soon led the Četniks into open conflict with the Partisans. Even after the Germans drove both forces out of Serbia, many Četniks occasionally joined German, Italian, and Croatian units in operations against their communist rivals. The Allies, who at first considered Mihailović the pillar of the Yugoslav resistance, eventually shifted their support to the Partisans. By the end of the war, the Četnik were greatly reduced in number. Some retreated north to surrender to Anglo-American forces; Mihailović and his few remaining followers tried to fight their way back to the Ravna Gora to continue the anticommunist struggle, but they were beaten and dispersed by the victorious Partisans. In March 1946 Mihailović was captured and brought to Belgrade, where he was tried and executed.
Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica (1999)

Chetnik symbol(FOTW)-
The flag used by the Četnik movement is a 2:3 black flag with a white skull and crossbones in the centre. Above and below the skull are arched writings in Cyrillic letters.
The writings on the flag say:

(above the emblem) Za kralja i otadzbinu - For the King and Fatherland
(below the emblem) Sloboda ili smrt - Freedom or DeathMotto is based on a anti-Ottoman Greece resistance with a same motto
ΕΛΕΥΘΕΡΙΑ Η ΘΑΝΑΤΟΣ (Freedom or Death)-
http://www.crwflags.com/FOTW/images/c/cs}chet.gif

[ssal]

If all Serbs are Chetniks, than it will be true to say all Croats ara NAzi Ustashe, and all Bosnian Muslims are Mujahedins?
(EVen tough I think some people have no idea where and how term CHetnik was created)

It's a shame because even amongst Albanians Chetnik is used as a derrogatory term for Serbians, complete result of missunderstanding or lack of knowledge. Labeling is very common in Balkans (including calling all Kosovan Albanians as nazi collaborators or muslims).

In any event Chetniks (to my understanding) were a resistance movement, centered in Sumadija, led by colonel Draza Mihajlovic since before WWII. They were Serbian Patriots whose strong anti-communist ideas led them into fatal compromises with the occupying Gremans, which in turn deprived them of Allied support and doomed them in defeat in the strugle for YU's future. (1)

If my understanding of them is wrong please someone correct me.

1- Louis Sell, 2003, pg 12.

[Billy No Mates]

It's a shame because even amongst Albanians Chetnik is used as a derrogatory term for Serbians, complete result of missunderstanding or lack of knowledge. Labeling is very common in Balkans (including calling all Kosovan Albanians as nazi collaborators or muslims).

In any event Chetniks (to my understanding) were a resistance movement, centered in Sumadija, led by colonel Draza Mihajlovic since before WWII. They were Serbian Patriots whose strong anti-communist ideas led them into fatal compromises with the occupying Gremans, which in turn deprived them of Allied support and doomed them in defeat in the strugle for YU's future. (1)

If my understanding of them is wrong please someone correct me.

1- Louis Sell, 2003, pg 12.

I read that one of the factors that lead to the British in particular favouring Tito and the Communists over Mihajlovic and the Nationalists was that one of the SOE communication bods in Cairo was a Communist and had been suppressing information that put the Chetniks in a good light .

[RWR]

Nothing honorable can be told about chetniks in WWII or in recent times.
They main goal was and is Greater Serbia and any amount of withewash won't clear their name and actions.I dont care how much Allied pilot's they rescued, they commited such monstrous act of enthic cleansing of Eastern Bosna, Lika and Sandjak in such scale and brutality that even Axis troops with wich they collaborated where horrified.

Photos of chetniks and Axis troops.

http://www.croradio.net/images/nazichetniks.gif
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/CetniciiNijemci.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/Zajedno.gif

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/djurisic.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/_1944__majevica__stevan_damjanovic.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/cetniksaNijemcima1.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c342/zvoncic/Hotchkiss.jpg


As for their crimes...


THE IMPLEMENTATION OF CHETNIK CRIMES OF GENOCIDE AGAINST CROATIANS AND BOSNIAKS FROM 1941 TO 1945

The actualization of genocidal crimes against Croatians and Bosniaks, according to the proposed plan by the Chetnik leaders and commanders, began immediately after the plans were drawn up and lasted to the end of the war. Their scope depended primarily on their military capabilities, their deployment and the strength of their opponents. From the documents we notice three periods which, according to the number of victims of genocide, were the most massive. The first was the commencement of the rebellion, from the end of July 1941 to February 1942. The second was from August to October 1942 and the third was from January to March 1943. These were the strongest military periods for the Chetnik movement on the territory of Bosnia and Croatia. It was also the time when the movement had the most intensive support of Chetniks from Serbia and Montenegro and the support of the Italian and to a lesser degree the German occupiers. We will mention several distinguishing examples from these periods.

A/ The first period (the end of July 1941 - February 1942

This period consists of two parts: the first, from the eruption of the rebellion until the autumn of 1941, when Chetniks and guerrillas participated in the rebellion together; and the second, which began at the same time as the division of the Chetnik and national liberation movement, namely, the division of the military into Chetniks and Partisans and crimes of Chetnik units may be observed.

In the first part, after the eruption of the revolt, in actions carried out jointly by the Chetniks and communists, the first massive crimes against Croatians and Bosniaks in Bosnia and Croatia were carried out. In this way, on July 27, 1941 and several days afterwards, in Bosansko Grahovo and the surrounding area, 62 Croatians, among whom were five women, nine children, and parish rector Ante Gospodnetic were killed by the rebels while their houses and five villages were burned after being looted. On July 2, in Krenjus and its surrounds, as well as in Vrtoci, several hundred Croatians, the majority being older individuals, women and children and the parish rector Kresimir Baric were massacred. They looted and burned houses and the Roman Catholic Church. Then followed the arrival of 2,500 Croatians from Boricevac and the surrounding area into Bihac. Boricevac itself was looted and completely burned and never rebuilt after the war. As a result, 19 Roman Catholic parishes on the right side of the Una River and ten on the left shore ceased to exist since there was no congregation left. Subsequently, on September 5, 1941, in Kulen Vakuf, 3,000 Bosniaks and a hundred Croatians were slaughtered and the area was looted and burnt. Also, 44 Bosniaks and 12 Croatians were killed in Varcar Vakuf and the surrounding areas. In Glamoc and its surrounds, 45 Bosniaks and two Croatians were killed. In Sanski Most the rebels killed Bosniaks and Croatian peasants and even their families: women and children.

It was the same in other areas. In this way, the "liberated territories" were soon "liberated" from Croatians and Bosniaks who were forced to leave so as not be slaughtered and killed. Their houses and villages were looted and burned. Soon, a river of 50,000 refugees began to flow into Bihac, Jajce, Knin, Sanski Most, Prijedor, Livno, and other towns. The share the Chetniks and their supporters took in executing these crimes was dominant. In eastern Herzegovina, massacres of civilians were carried by out rebels with assistance from Montenegro and this in Avtovac on June 28, 1941 when some 47 Bosniaks were massacred; in Berkovici (Dabar) on August 28, 300 Bosniaks were massacred, predominantly women and children, who were thrown into pits, and the majority into the "Cavkarica" pit, according to Partisan documents. According to the documents of NDH authorities, the number is considerably greater. Some Croatians were killed, while from the entire eastern Herzegovina region, colonies of refugees, flowed into neighbouring towns, predominantly Capljina, Mostar, and Dubrovnik. After being looted, many houses and villages were burned. It was in eastern Bosnia, where Chetnik units, established and assisted by Chetniks in Serbia, and active since the beginning of the revolt, that the first massacres of Bosniaks were recorded and this in Medjedja and Koraj in October and November 1941. Several hundred people were slaughtered.

Since the NDH powers were unable to suppress the rebellion and hinder its spreading, Italian and German occupying forces intervened. The Italians occupied Zones I and II and the Germans brought in new forces. The Italians enabled the organization and supplies for the Chetnik units and their close links from Serbia to Slovenia, who in turn organized, planned, and commenced the genocidal crimes against Croatians and Bosniaks. In this way, Chetniks around Knin and at the three border point started the terror against the Croatian population. On October 7 and 8, 1941, they slaughtered seven Croatians in Donji Ervenik. On July 3, 1941, they ordered "that all Catholics in the village of Stikova be converted to the Orthodox faith." In an attack 16 days later, 11 local Croatians and 1 gendarme were killed. On December 11, in the village of Velika Plana, by Lovinac, six Croatians were massacred and before that, on September 29, 1941, 44 Croatians of Brotinja by D. Lapac were captured and then slaughtered. The majority were women and children. This resulted in a new wave of Croatian refugees.

From December 1941 until February 1942, many massive killings of Bosniaks by Chetniks were carried out in eastern Bosnia where the Italians had handed over authority to them. In this way, 5,000 Bosniaks and a hundred Croatians were killed in Foca and Gorazde according to a statement by a Chetnik commander. At the same time, in the Srebrenica region, 1,000 people were killed, in Vlasenica 2 to 3,000, in Rogatica under 1,000, and in Visegrad over a 1,000 individuals were slaughtered, burned and killed. The situation was similar in the Nevesinje district where Bosniaks were also slaughtered and five villages were burnt to the ground. Most of the victims were tortured, women and young girls were raped, while many were slaughtered and thrown into the Drina River from Foca to Ustipraca. After the looting, many of the houses and villages were completely destroyed along with mosques, three in Foca alone. Thousands of refugees fled towards Sarajevo, Tuzla, and other towns so that the number of refugees increased to 100,000 in the entire NDH territory mostly due to Chetnik terrors and crimes. The arrival of Partisans in this territory temporarily hindered further Chetnik crimes, but made possible the transition of many Chetniks into Partisans, without punishment for the crimes committed.

B/ The second period (August - October 1941

In this period, the majority of Chetnik crimes were again carried out in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina. The Chetniks captured Foca on August 19,1942 in which 8,000 Bosniaks, both native inhabitants and some refugees, lived. Approximately 5,000 Bosniaks succeeded in escaping towards Sarajevo. Some smaller groups of Bosniaks went into hiding while the others were captured and killed. One of the survivors stated:"... As soon as the Chetniks occupied Foca, they captured and killed all the Bosniak men, as well as a great number of women and children, whilst almost all the girls and young women were raped. Altogether, men in hiding survived. Shops and houses were completely looted and some of them were burned". The same source also claimes that there had been about 2,000 innocent victims.On September 5, 1942, P. Bacovic reported to D. Mihailovic that in Foca: "...1,200 Ustasa in uniforms and approximately 1,000 Bosniaks who had compromised themselves have been killed, while we had four dead and five wounded.... We had an enormous booty. Our goal was to secure links with Serbia and this we achieved."

From August 29 until September 4, 1942, during the Italian military operation "Albia" against the Partisans on Biokovo, a group of 1,000 Chetniks from eastern Herzegovia carried out massive looting, arson, and crimes against the local Croatian civilian population. It was on the territory of the Cetina parish alone (in Rascani, Zupa biokovska, Kozica, and Dragljani) that 160 Croatians were slaughtered, shot, or burned. Among them were three priests, Ivan Condic, Josip Braenovic who was decapitated, and Ladislav Ivankovic. On September 5, 1942, Bacovic reported on the "punitive expedition" to D. Mihailovic, stating that the Chetniks had killed over "1,000 Ustasa", and that they themselves had "not one dead or wounded". He went on to state that en route from Ljubuski to Vrgorac, they had "skinned three Catholic priests alive", killed "all the men 15 years of age and older" and that "17 villages had been completely destroyed", after which, with songs and the Serbian flag, they "came to the shores of our Adriatic" to the south of Makarska "and positioned our flag". From May until September 1942, on the basis of an agreement with the Italians, the Chetniks took over power in eastern Herzegovina with the exception of the towns. Subsequently, they killed several hundred Croatians and Bosniaks and a massive exodus of the Croatian and Bosniak population from the left shores of the Neretva River followed. During this period, the exodus was primarily from the Stolac region, in which "from approximately 28,000 Croatians and Bosniaks" (with the exception of a few families in Stolac itself) not a single Croatian or Bosniak remained according to Chetnik documents. During the Italian military operation against Partisans on the territory of Prozor in October 1942, the Chetniks first killed around 200 Croatians and Bosniaks in the Mostar area and then in the Prozor area, they killed, slaughtered, and threw into pits or water 1,716 people (340 Bosniaks and the rest Croatian civilians). Upon their return, they killed twenty Croatians, in the Konjic district, looted their homes and villages, and burned many of them as well. Bacovic sent the following telegram to D. Mihailovic on October 23, 1942: stating that : In the Prozor operations, over 2,000 Croats and Bosniaks slaughtered,and (Chetnik) soldiers returned.

Meanwhile, in northern and central Dalmatia, Chetniks carried out more genocidal crimes against Croatians under directions from the Italians and under their auspices. In this way, at the beginning of October 1942, on the territory of the Cetina parish, Chetniks, under the command of commander M. Rokvic, killed 200 Croatians, looted and burned down houses in the villages of Gata, Naglice, Cisla, Ostrvica, Zvecanji, Dugopolje, Kolenice, Srijani and Dolac Gornji. The Italians reported: "Most of the people killed were the elderly, women and children, who had no ties with the Partisans". Every one was slaughtered when captured. During the killings, the Chetniks would sing: " Petar from London writes us, Oh Croatians, you are no more". On October 21, 1942, in Bitelic, near Sinj, Djujic`s Chetniks, under directions from the Italians, killed 29 Croats and 6 more in Otisic and then burned down 220 Croatian houses. According to the report of the Italian General Berardi from Knin, "every Catholic was tortured and slaughtered and afterwards most of the corpses were mutilated in the most horrible manner", but he did not react. Djujic sent a telegram to D. Mihailovic reporting: " My people killed all those we came upon" On October 3, 1942, Chetniks from Medak killed five Croatians from Ribnik." All documents illustrate that the victims in these massacres were civilians which may be seen by the number of Chetnik casualties. The consequence was a new wave of Croatian refugees from these territories towards the sea and deeper into NDH territories.

C/ The third period (January - March 1943)

Chetnik genocidal crimes against Bosniaks and Croatians in this period correspond with German and Italian operations against NOP forces which began on January 20, 1943, throughout the NDH territory (headquarters in Bihac). Chetniks from the NDH territory, Montenegro and Serbia participated in these operations. They used this for the pre-planned cleansing of the Bosniak and Croatian population, and so, from January 3 until February 7, 1943, Bosniaks were cleansed from the districts of Cajnice, Foca and Pljevlja. The Chetnik Commander P. Djurisic gave the following report to his commander-in-chief on February 13, 1943: "All Muslim villages in the three mentioned districts are completely burned, so that not one of their homes has remained unscathed... The complete destruction of the Muslim population, regardless of *** and age, has been carried out during this operation.
Victims. The number of our victims amounts to 22 killed, of whom two were accidents and 32 wounded.
Of the Muslims, approximately 1,200 combatants and up to 8,000 other victims: women, the elderly and children".The cleansing continued in Sandzak. According to the German General Luters, the aim of these Chetnik actions was "the extermination of the Muslim part of the population, especially in Sandzak and in Herzegovina", because that "Muslim wedge between Serbia and Montenegro must finally disappear". At the same time, he writes to his headquarters: "It is necessary to stress the characteristics of Chetnik warfare, their attacks on the unarmed weaker enemy... Their slaughter of helpless women and children (Bosniaks) is in itself, for the Chetniks, an understandable, honorable and brave act, and the executors consider themselves heroes". This was confirmed by a Chetnik leader, D. Jevdjevic from the time when they "who were heroes in looting and slaughtering women were cowards when the first gun was fired", fleeing 30 km ahead of the Croatian Partisans of Dalmatia. It was precisely the defeat of the Chetniks by the Partisans at the Neretva and the Drina Rivers where the contribution of the Croatian Partisans was most significant which influenced the breakdown of their plans to destroy the Bosniaks and Croatians. According to German verified data from the territory within their zone, in six east Bosnian and four central Bosnian districts, 8,400 Croatians and 24,400 Bosniaks were killed, making a total of 32,800 people.The small remaining groups of Bosniaks were forced by the Chetniks to convert from the Islamic to the Serbian Orthodox faith as was the case in the villages of Potpece and Vikoc near Foca.

At the same time, at the end of January 1943, the Chetniks in Dalmatia, taking advantage of the absence of stronger Partisan forces, engaged in an action, killing over 100 Croatians in the villages of Kijevo, Kosori, Maovice, Vrlika, Ruzic, Otavice, Gradac and Kricke, and raping women and girls, all under the slogan, "burn and slaughter everything Catholic". At that time, they impaled 68 year-old Niko Blazevic and roasted until he died. In Otavice, they threw 86 year-old Ilija Mestrovic, the uncle of the famous Croatian sculptor Ivan Mestrovic, into his burning house. Already on February 1, 1943, D. Mihailovic was informed: " In Kijevo and Vrlica, Bacovic shot 55 Ustasa and in Maovice and Otavice, Djujic killed 48 Ustasa. Afterwards, on February 3 and 4, 1943, Herzegovinian Chetniks, in the Imotski region, slaughtered and killed 32 Croatians, looted and destroyed their property, set their houses on fire and raped the young girls and women. In these actions, the only victims were Croatian civilians, who were all considered Ustasa by the Chetniks. Not one victim was Serbian and not one Serbian village was destroyed. Again, the consequence was the departure of 3,000 Croatians from Sinj alone."

In regard to the news of the horrific massacres of Bosniaks committed under the leadership of D. Mihailovic, on May 1, 1943, the British government brought to his attention that the Chetnik leadership should "moderate their attitude" towards Bosniaks. Meanwhile, C. de Gaulle, shortly afterwards, awarded several Chetniks with the French war cross, to their great satisfaction.

It is necessary to stress that Croatian and Bosniak anti-fascists, activists, fighters, and members of NOP were killed without exception if captured by Chetniks. In this way, from May 25 until June 15, 1942, the Dinara Chetnik division alone in the battle against the Partisans, counted "over 500 Partisan corpses, mostly Croatians". Some time later, in 1942, near Rujiste, the Chetniks captured 23 Croatian Partisans and shot them, for which deed they received 10,000 liras reward from the Italians; yet another method which the Italians used to instigate them to crime. Djujic`s report to D. Mihailovic of December 21, 1943, stated that in the battle against the Partisans, 140 Partisans had been captured, of whom seven were Serbian and the rest Croatian. The Serbians were released and the Croatians were all slaughtered and thrown into a pit. At that time, the commander of the Podrinje Chetnik Brigade wrote in his report, among other things, the following: "I shot 5 Partisans because they were "Turks"..."( that is, Bosniaks.). From other documents, it may be seen that the majority were representatives of various anti-fascist organizations of NOP, as well as the wounded who were without adequate military protection, which the Chetniks used to their advantage.

Outside of these periods and until the end of the war, the Chetniks continued to loot, violate and kill Croatians and Bosniaks, whenever they had the opportunity. We will only mention a few of these crimes. On June 7, 1943, in the Brnjic municipality, 42 Bosniaks were slaughtered, after which 1,060 refugees escaped to Zenica. In February 1944, Dalmatian Chetniks, in the villages of Dubrava, Danilo, Radonici and Goris killed 30 Croats. On April 4, they killed 10 in the Promin village of Necmen, 27 in the Skradin region on September 12, 1944, and 32 in December 1944 in Bribir, Grizani, and Tribalje near Crikvenica, burning 70 houses and the Bribir Church. In May 1944, Chetniks in Gorazde slaughtered about 50 Bosniaks, burning 2 mosques. In northeastern Bosnia, on October 8, 1944, the Trebavska Chetniks killed 25 Croatians in the villages of Tramosnica, Turic, Liporasce and Srednja Slatina. On January 3, 1945, Chetniks "captured, raped, and shot 27 women and children" (Croatians) in the villages of Kladari and Carevac, and ten days later massacred Croatians in the village Pecnik. On December 21, 1944, the Chetniks of Rogatic killed 23 Bosniaks in the village of Vinograd. Up to June 1944, on the territory of the Rogatic district alone, 3,677 homes were burned and 4,635 were Bosniaks killed (among whom were a small number of Croatians) by the Chetniks.

At the end of the war, the Chetniks were militarily defeated but many of them were given the opportunity during the war, most often after being imprisoned, to "voluntarily" join the Partisans.More than 80% took advantage of this opportunity and, almost as a rule, gained legal amnesty from their crimes. Only a few were convicted for their crimes. In this way, they were given the opportunity to plan the revenge which they had constantly stressed during the war, most frequently in the song: " Oh Croatians, are we ever going to slaughter you, when Pero returns from London", even though their King did not return. This was especially revealed during the final operations after the surrender at Bleiburg, with murders and firing squads during "Death Marches", in camps and in places of execution for members of the Croatian defense forces and NDH authorities, as well as civilians throughout the territory of the former Yugoslavia, namely Croatians and Bosniaks.

The number of Chetnik victims of genocide among Croatians and Bosniaks during the war from 1941 to 1945 has not yet been confirmed. The newest demographic research suggests that the possible exact number of casualties on NDH territory is 200,000 Croats and 100,000 Bosniaks. These numbers refer to those killed. According to V. Zerjavic, of this number, 32,000 Croatians (20,000 in Croatia and 12,000 in Bosnia) and 33,000 Bosniaks were victims of the Chetniks.31 To many, Zerjavic`s number appears too small, especially due to larger estimates in some sources and literature. It might be that this is possible, until future research, which is now being conducted, establishes concrete numerical data for these Chetnik genocidal crimes.

CONCLUSION
Chetnik crimes of genocide against Croatians and Bosniaks in Croatia and Bosnia during the Second World War (1941-1945) were not incidental, rather they were planned and an integral component of the military and political goals of the Chetnik movement. Their origins are in the comprehension of Greater Serbian nationalists and expansionists, of which the Chetnik movement was the most extreme, most organized and most operative part during the war. According to this comprehension, national and historical territories outside of Serbia are also "Serbian" because Serbians live there, regardless of their number. Areas in which there are no Serbians may also be considered "Serbian" if geostrategic or other reasons exist. In this respect, they considered Bosnia and the greater part of today`s Croatia to be "Serbian" and endeavored to "cleanse" them, through crimes of genocide, of Croatians and Bosniaks who formed the majority of the population and then annex them to the ethnically pure "Greater Serbia". It is precisely this constant effort of the Chetnik movement to establish this "Greater Serbia," on the mentioned territories, which is the real reason for the Chetnik terror and genocidal crimes and not religious and national differences, nor terror or counter-terror, as some would have us believe. The Chetniks displayed their genocidal comprehension at all opportunities in numerous documents, maps, speeches, statements and actions before, during and unfortunately even after the Second World War. During this war, they attempted to achieve their genocidal plans with the support of and under the protection of first the Italian occupiers and then the German occupiers, as well as the support of the exiled government of Yugoslavia, Great Britain, and the United States. This is why, along with the Chetniks, the above mentioned participants carry their share of the responsibility for these crimes. In this respect, as we have partially shown, Bosniaks and Croatians in many territories in Croatia and Bosnia, from Serbia, Montenegro to Slovenia were "cleansed". Wherever Chetnik units arrived, horrific crimes were committed, depending only on the relation of forces and the circumstances in a given territory and throughout NDH, Europe, and the world. This resulted in 300 villages and towns, numerous Muslim mosques, Catholic churches, and historical and cultural monuments burned and destroyed and tens of thousands of Croatians and Bosniaks killed. Among them were 67 Muslim imams and hafizs (keepers of the Koran), 52 Catholic priests, and several nuns of whom the most well-known are the so called Drina martyrs, five nuns who were taken by the Chetniks just before Christmas 1941 from the Pale convent to Gorazde where they were tortured, slaughtered, and thrown into the Drina River.

The Chetnik movement did not fulfill its genocidal intentions because it did not possess enough military units.The main reason was the self-organized defense and armed opposition of the Croatian and Bosniak people, which protected them from even more tragic Chetnik crimes in many places and brought about their military defeat. Following the war in 1945, all Chetnik criminals were given the opportunity to answer for their crimes of genocide against the Bosniak and Croatians and their historical, sacred and cultural monuments in court. Many were even given the chance to continue with these crimes under a different symbol (the communist red star?) For this reason, it is not coincidental that such genocidal crimes of greater Serbian nationalists and Chetniks occurred in even more appalling forms, with respect to the number of those killed, the number of refugees, and the destruction, against the Croatians and Bosniaks in the greater Serbian aggression upon the Republic of Croatia in 1991, and then, against the Republic of Bosnia until today. Historical experience shows that the military defeat of the Chetniks renders possible the return of the majority of the surviving Croatian and Bosniak population to their homes, but that is not sufficient. It is necessary to punish all the criminals, because until this is done, there will be no peace on these territories, and the threat of danger, new conflicts and new Chetnik crimes will always exist, which is something all international factors must be conscious of, if they truly want peace and if they do not wish to bear their share of the responsibility for Chetnik genocidal crimes.


WARNING.
GRAPHIC PHOTO!!!












http://forum.axishistory.com/files/foto101.jpg

http://afans.org/files/images/klanje%20bosnjaka%20cetnici.jpg


Chetniks today...


http://img314.imageshack.us/img314/1540/cetnici16wq.jpg

http://www.vecernji.hr/system/galleries/pics/050515/svi-cetnici-txt.jpg

http://www.blogger.ba/slike/10287.160750.jpg

[Sanat-e-naft]

Wait, what the hell are they doing taking pictures with Nazis? I thought they were fighting them?

[KoTeMoRe]

So what?

Yes, crimes were comitted, our own albanian nationalists committed the same crimes against what they saw as communist supporters, vendettas happened from both sides.

Do the current çetniks (sorry for the turkish spelling) support those acts, on a revival trip surely, as much as some albanians do support Ballist's acts against communists.

It's simply a revival, and as such, zealots tend to confound the spirit of a nation with some of its darkest periods.

It's funny in your link, the most endangered group is absent namely the communists. The Cold War sure did some damage.

Edit: Senat, classical situationnal awareness, ze germans were kicking the communist partizans very hard, as they did in Albania, so the Nationalists just tried to get ze germans do ze dirty work for them (like in Albania) and then restart the "national war".

Unfortunately, you can't gamble on an invasion.

[Lokos]

Nothing honorable can be told about chetniks in WWII or in recent times.

And who are the chetniks in 'recent times'? Again, what if I said I'm a chetnik? What did I do to you? Can you define chetnik for us?


they commited such monstrous act of enthic cleansing of Eastern Bosna, Lika and Sandjak in such scale and brutality that even Axis troops with wich they collaborated where horrified.

The hilarious thing is that they say the same when speaking of Bosniak/Croat Ustase during the same time period. Then again, I won't be the one to post photos of slain Serbs. Jasenovac and its ilk are remembered well enough.

Lokos

[RWR]

And who are the chetniks in 'recent times'? Again, what if I said I'm a chetnik? What did I do to you? Can you define chetnik for us?

I allready posted that clip with Duke Slavko Aleksic and his unit.There was more than dozen of such units in VRS and VRSK.
Chatniks are people that call themselsf chetniks and all those that call for establishment of Greater Serbia.
Very simple.


Then again, I won't be the one to post photos of slain Serbs. Jasenovac and its ilk are remembered well enough.

You don't have to.
I dont go around foregin military forums and post lies that Ustasa and SS Handzar where freedom fighters that fought for just cause on Allied side.

[zg18]

Folks ,folks are you not tired from these Chetnik,Ustasha ,Partisan disscussions?? I think that 60 years is enough already,we all know what happened and we all know the thruth and it`s not nice,that`s for sure.

[KoTeMoRe]

Folks ,folks are you not tired from these Chetnik,Ustasha ,Partisan disscussions?? I think that 60 years is enough already,we all know what happened and we all know the thruth and it`s not nice,that`s for sure.

No, are you?

That's who we are, the nemesis of humanity. Walking powderkegs. Thank god, I don't smoke.

[zg18]

No, are you?

Yep.



That's who we are, the nemesis of humanity. Walking powderkegs. Thank god, I don't smoke.

That`s pretty big successes considering that everybody from 7-77 smokes in the Balkans :lol:

p-)

[vuc]

The hilarious thing is that they say the same when speaking of Bosniak/Croat Ustase during the same time period. Then again, I won't be the one to post photos of slain Serbs. Jasenovac and its ilk are remembered well enough.
Lokos

This is exactly what I thought when I read that.

Find: 'Ustase' Replace: 'Cetnik'

[Sanat-e-naft]

People from the Balkans scare me. Also, I let a serb crash on my couch last weekend, now my house smells like an ashtray, you guys are as bad as Turks when it comes to smoking.

[zg18]

People from the Balkans scare me. Also, I let a serb crash on my couch last weekend, now my house smells like an ashtray, you guys are as bad as Turks when it comes to smoking.

We have saying "puši ko Turčin" ("smoke like Turk"),you should see how Bosnians smoke...two packs a day...terrible :oops:

[Sanat-e-naft]

I'm telling you Phillip-Morris should open outlet malls in Turky and all over the Balkans.

[RWR]

Folks ,folks are you not tired from these Chetnik,Ustasha ,Partisan disscussions?? I think that 60 years is enough already,we all know what happened and we all know the thruth and it`s not nice,that`s for sure.

I fully agree.
I don't have anything against Serbs or any other nation in the world buy I have a lot against history revisionism.Same people who today claim that chetniks where simple rural freedom fighters who run around forest saving Allied pilots, camping and nothing more, will claim tomorrow that Srebrenica genocide was justified battle against muslim terrorism.Also I dont like to see when someone glorifies terrorists and war criminals like Arkan.

[vuc]

People from the Balkans scare me. Also, I let a serb crash on my couch last weekend, now my house smells like an ashtray, you guys are as bad as Turks when it comes to smoking.

I read a book about the Serbian retreat in the World War (by some French diplomat) and there was a passage in there explaining how the soldiers were smoking and he wasn't able to stand there because the smoke was too severe. He stated.

'Serbs must be impervious to smoke'

[KoTeMoRe]

We have saying "puši ko Turčin" ("smoke like Turk"),you should see how Bosnians smoke...two packs a day...terrible :oops:

We have a similar saying, but it is of dubious relation with smoking...and it doesn't involve Turks.:)

[zg18]

We have a similar saying, but it is of dubious relation with smoking...and it doesn't involve Turks.:)


Ha ha ha Kotemore :) -you devil p-),is that "similar saying" involves womens and "karuci" ;-) ??

[KoTeMoRe]

Ha ha ha Kotemore :) -you devil p-),is that "similar saying" involves womens and "karuci" ;-) ??

What the...you know some albanians, don't you? It gave me the creeps when I read this, I was talking about it with my brother.p-)

[zg18]

What the...you know some albanians, don't you?


Yep, we have similar word for "karuci"="kara" and for the "action" itseplh "karanje" :)



It gave me the creeps when I read this, I was talking about it with my brother.p-)


Why?? p-)

[Mate]

Ha ha ha Kotemore :) -you devil p-),is that "similar saying" involves womens and "karuci" ;-) ??
Ha ha...."karuci" is the small one as the bosniaks and albanians call "Hadum" roflrofl

[zg18]

Ha ha...."karuci" is the small one as the bosniaks and albanians call "Hadum" roflrofl

Small one rofl !? You should use our word "kita" for big one p-)

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

He was an idiot. Period. He fought for himself, not for serbia. He just used 'serb cause' for excuse. His father was Montenegrin, also. As was Milosevic too. Ironical, isn't it?

Stalin was Georgian and Hitler was Austrian...funny how that works, right?

[V.I.D.]

......and Napoleon was Corsican. So many examples to choose from.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

......and Napoleon was Corsican. So many examples to choose from.

Alexander was Macedonian (not FYROM or whatever everyone gets pissed about)

OK, enough of that

[KoTeMoRe]

Yep, we have similar word for "karuci"="kara" and for the "action" itseplh "karanje" :)



Why?? p-)

Well I was taliking about it with my brother and you came in with your post, like you were here with us...I was like, Fation (my brother) you can't be zg18.

Hell we're not safe any where, from now on.

You evil other balkanics, stop opressing us.p-) Or I'll make fun of your ties...:oops:.

[sreto]

Also I dont like to see when someone glorifies terrorists and war criminals like Arkan.

It seems like who ever Serbs glorify, they are considered terrorists and war criminals to you. Yet people like your self have have no problem glorifying your own 'heroes', who killed the cetniks and aggressors. Thats all I gonna say, not even gonna bother arguing anymore. This topic has gone down hill, from third hand stories about Arkan to god knows what.

[AK-Lover]

It was a stupid topic to begin with. I am suprised it didnt get locked down within the first 3 pages.

[cinoeye]

Juist for fun, Serbian President was born in Bosnia and Commander of Serbian General Staff HQ was Born in Croatia.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Juist for fun, Serbian President was born in Bosnia and Commander of Serbian General Staff HQ was Born in Croatia.

Schwarzenegger is Austrian :)

[cinoeye]

Schwarzenegger is Austrian :)

And your other half...? :)

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Irish, Scottish, English...a little Native American and perhaps some Gypsy

My father was the dirty Polack

[cinoeye]

Irish, Scottish, English...a little Native American and perhaps some Gypsy

My father was the dirty Polack
wootp-)rofl:hug:

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

wootp-)rofl:hug:

Yeah fun growing up in Texas with the "foreign" last name. But there are a good number of people of Polish decent in my area of the state.

I lucked out though and don't have a ridiculously long surname with lots of consonants in a row and it DOESN'T end in -ski :)

Here is something interesting for Serbs...http://www.texasescapes.com/CentralTexasTownsSouth/SerbinTexas/SerbinTexasWends.htm

Although the people are Wendish who settled it, but the Serbian name carries on!

[cinoeye]

That's cool.
You should consider to move to NEO OH. ;)

Your last name ends with ow, icz, -wicz, -owicz, -ewicz, czak, -czyk, -iak, -ak, -ik, and -yk I bet ?

Mine is ić, but since is ic in english, I get a lot of IK. I should change it to ich
My last name also begings with J(like Y) and the second letter in my name is I but they read as ay instead of ee, because my forth letter in name is an A... p-)

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

That's cool.
You should consider to move to NEO OH. ;)

Your last name ends with ow, icz, -wicz, -owicz, -ewicz, czak, -czyk, -iak, -ak, -ik, and -yk I bet ?

Mine is ić, but since is ic in english, I get a lot of IK. I should change it to ich
My last name also begings with J(like Y) and the second letter in my name is I but they read as ay instead of ee, because my forth letter in name is an A... p-)

Ends in czak

Yeah the change to ich would be nice for us Americans! I filmed tennis in college and pretty much every team had a player with -ich or -vic from former-Yugo states. In fact my school even had a guy from Serbia (who played on the tennis team that is).

[AK-Lover]

You are complaining? Try growing up with a first name ending in A in Canada.

[Sanat-e-naft]

HAHA thats rough, try being Iranian in the Mid-West. People 1. couldnt find it on a map if they had to and 2. the only thing they know about it is via Fox news or "something about some hostages". Jergoffs.

[Lokos]

I dont go around foregin military forums and post lies that Ustasa and SS Handzar where freedom fighters that fought for just cause on Allied side.

So, you dispute the fact that the goal of Draza Mihailovic's chetniks was the eventual expulsion of German occupation forces following Allied landings in the Balkans (realizing that guerrilla resistance alone would be futile and costly for the Serbian people)? That certain factions of the chetniks entered into tactical alliances with the Germans and the Italians (especially), so as to fight the partizans who were causing problems for the Germans, who would then, in turn, take their rage and frustration out on Serbian civilians (the one hundred for one policy) - like in Kragujevac, where some seven thousand men, women and children were executed over a few score German fatalities in a partizan attack?

What is your revision of history? That they were allies of the Germans because they appreciated their philosophy? Because they were simple, blood thirsty killers? In Bosnia, was it the chetniks who began the cycle of murder?

This topic is stale. There is nothing to be gained from it, and I'm done talking to you.

Lokos

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

You are complaining? Try growing up with a first name ending in A in Canada.

haha, i actually love my state and didnt have a rough time, i was kidding about the name thing although its been mis****ounced/misspelled by every teacher/coach/employer i ever had or they manage to spell the first one wrong. so im screwed every time i know someone will misspell either my first, last or both names.

always have to do this when someone is trying to spell it...___czak...ok ok ok...c as in cat...z as in zebra...ak...no not ah, ak like the gun!!!

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

HAHA thats rough, try being Iranian in the Mid-West. People 1. couldnt find it on a map if they had to and 2. the only thing they know about it is via Fox news or "something about some hostages". Jergoffs.

touche........

[Mundzos]

So, you dispute the fact that the goal of Draza Mihailovic's chetniks was the eventual expulsion of German occupation forces following Allied landings in the Balkans (realizing that guerrilla resistance alone would be futile and costly for the Serbian people)? That certain factions of the chetniks entered into tactical alliances with the Germans and the Italians (especially), so as to fight the partizans who were causing problems for the Germans, who would then, in turn, take their rage and frustration out on Serbian civilians (the one hundred for one policy) - like in Kragujevac, where some seven thousand men, women and children were executed over a few score German fatalities in a partizan attack?

What is your revision of history? That they were allies of the Germans because they appreciated their philosophy? Because they were simple, blood thirsty killers? In Bosnia, was it the chetniks who began the cycle of murder?

This topic is stale. There is nothing to be gained from it, and I'm done talking to you.

Lokos


THat is very lame excuse.....Chetniks were choosing sides depending on who seems stronger at that point....They fought against real freedom fighters, they killed tons of civilians and they were on Axis side....Those are the FACTS, whatever his ultimate goal was is not irrelevant anymore and nobody knows it for sure...

[KninGrad]

Bitter, are we? I would be too. But, surely, one could sense that my usage of the term 'pathetic' was a matter of relative characterization. It was 'pathetic', because it was small, unable to offer concerted resistance and reliant on a stronger power (i.e. Serbia itself) that found itself unable to offer any serious support. There were no victories in 1995 in Krajina for a very simple reason; there couldn't be. Excepting small-scale, tactical successes, outright victories were made nigh-impossible by the opposing force being superior both quantitatively and qualitatively. This is not a recipe for success, barring a miracle.

I'm sorry you suffered from poor treatment in Serbia.

Here is a note of support from a group of patriots some of us know as Riblja Corba:



Lokos


LOL Lokos .....that song was made to mock Milosevic's government and attitude of some Serbians in Serbia that saw refugees as threat and not to insult Serbs ...... some people just dont get it I guess

[KninGrad]

Oh I fully agree, no argument there. FRY was clearly to slow not to mention lack of planning and organization, it should have been instantaneous when RSK declared independence and shown full support of it. In fact any trace of Yugoslavia should have ended then and there, non of the FRY stuff after the wars. Instead RSK established a government and its own currency instead of integrating with FRY and RS.

As for the whole Chetnik thing, totally used in the wrong context. A Chetnik equals a rebel soldier who's loyalty lies with the king, unless I have been totally oblivious during the last decade what king has Serbia had exactly to fight for? Not one individual in the Bosnian war would qualify for that title no mater how much they were convinced they deserved it.

Well actually Chetniks were something like special forces that were sent to Old Serbia and Kosovo during 1900s at the time when Serbia was only Beograd pasaluk.....Also RSK and Srpska wanted to unite with Serbia but Milosevic never allowed it....and yes at the end RSK was not supported by either Srpska or Serbia....all valuable defense/offense systems were sent to Serbia by order from Belgrade

[ssal]

So, you dispute the fact that the goal of Draza Mihailovic's chetniks was the eventual expulsion of German occupation forces following Allied landings in the Balkans (realizing that guerrilla resistance alone would be futile and costly for the Serbian people)? That certain factions of the chetniks entered into tactical alliances with the Germans and the Italians (especially), so as to fight the partizans who were causing problems for the Germans, who would then, in turn, take their rage and frustration out on Serbian civilians (the one hundred for one policy) - like in Kragujevac, where some seven thousand men, women and children were executed over a few score German fatalities in a partizan attack?

What is your revision of history? That they were allies of the Germans because they appreciated their philosophy? Because they were simple, blood thirsty killers? In Bosnia, was it the chetniks who began the cycle of murder?

This topic is stale. There is nothing to be gained from it, and I'm done talking to you.

Lokos


I have yet to find a published source (paper, online or otherwise) that does NOT list Chetnicks as nazi collaborators. All sources show that their main enemies were the Communists not the Germans, this ideology led them into compromises with the Germans, which in turn deprived them of assistance from the big powers when the war was over. This ment that in 1945 all aid was given to the Communists who retributed on the population and on the Chetnicks.30 thousand Ustashi and Slovenian soldiers (some of which have been handed over by the Allied forces) were killed. In 1945-1946 perhaps 100 thousand chetnicks were killed, including their leader, Mihajlovic.

[KoTeMoRe]

I have yet to find a published source (paper, online or otherwise) that does NOT list Chetnicks as nazi collaborators. All sources show that their main enemies were the Communists not the Germans, this ideology led them into compromises with the Germans, which in turn deprived them of assistance from the big powers when the war was over. This ment that in 1945 all aid was given to the Communists who retributed on the population and on the Chetnicks.30 thousand Ustashi and Slovenian soldiers (some of which have been handed over by the Allied forces) were killed. In 1945-1946 perhaps 100 thousand chetnicks were killed, including their leader, Mihajlovic.

One has to review post-WW2 literature to find out Communists despite being worst enemmies with çetniks, were not their principal issue.

There can't be ideological proximity with the Race of the Masters when you're a subhuman slav...merely tactical arrangements.

As for their collaboration with the germans, it was Yalta and the role of the USSR that kept them dry after WW2, not some ethical missmatch between the Western Allies and the Cetniks.

The very fact Franco, The Portugese regime, the Algerian authorities etc remained in power after WW2 should discard that option.

[Lokos]

LOL Lokos .....that song was made to mock Milosevic's government and attitude of some Serbians in Serbia that saw refugees as threat and not to insult Serbs ......

And that's exactly how I intended it to be seen by MacGyver.


.Those are the FACTS, whatever his ultimate goal was is not irrelevant anymore and nobody knows it for sure...

Your facts don't dispute mine, in case you were wondering. You are merely emphasizing a particular set of them.


I have yet to find a published source (paper, online or otherwise) that does NOT list Chetnicks as nazi collaborators.

Assuredly they co-operated at times with the Germans. Much like the Nedic regime in Serbia itself.


All sources show that their main enemies were the Communists not the Germans

Their main enemies were both the Germans and the Communists. I think I've already explained why.


In 1945-1946 perhaps 100 thousand chetnicks were killed, including their leader, Mihajlovic.

One hundred thousand Chetniks? There weren't that many to begin with... That figure is ridiculously overblown.

Lokos

[1911-a1]

I have yet to find a published source (paper, online or otherwise) that does NOT list Chetnicks as nazi collaborators.


Dude, there's a chetnik monument in Illinois, USA. Why would it be there if they were the enemy?

[KoTeMoRe]

Dude, there's a chetnik monument in Illinois, USA. Why would it be there if they were the enemy?

Ehem there is a monument of Enver Hoxha in Kosovo...monuments can be privately funded. It is of no relevance at all.p-)

[ssal]

One hundred thousand Chetniks? There weren't that many to begin with... That figure is ridiculously overblown.

Lokos

- Julie A. Mertus, "Kosovo: How Myths and Truths Started a War", 1999, pg 146-56.
-Luis Sell, "Slobodan Milosevich, 2003, page 14.

... any evidence of the contrary is welcome.

[KoTeMoRe]

- Julie A. Mertus, "Kosovo: How Myths and Truths Started a War", 1999, pg 146-56.
-Luis Sell, "Slobodan Milosevich, 2003, page 14.

... any evidence of the contrary is welcome.

You might give me the complete source list/index on the back of those books. Matter of methodology.

I'm currently at the KBR (Belgian Royal Library) might get a look at both.

Try: - Britain, Mihajlovic and the Chetniks 1941-1942, Macmillan Press, 1998.

[Royal]

As usual it's gone way off topic.

It's like cleaning the Augean stables - expect a new round of casualties if things don't stay on the straight and narrow.

Locked.