View Full Version : Dutch statue for Wehrmacht-soldier?
SineJustitia
03-19-2008, 03:15 PM
In the Dutch town of Goirle, a local artist and a former city-council member have started a bid to raise money for a statue for an unlikely hero: a soldier of the Wehrmacht, who was stationed in Goirle during World War II.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/238/imagevb8.png (http://imageshack.us)
October 6th 1944, just three days after his 18th birthday, Karl-Heinz Rosch was stationed in a farm with his platoon, when they came under fire. A British artillery barrage strafed the farm, and the Wehrmacht soldiers took shelter in the basement.
Rosch however noticed that the two young children of the farmer, unaware of the danger, were still playing outside, in the courtyard. He left the basement, ran into the courtyard and took the children under his arms, dragging them into the safety of the basement.
When he ran outside again to take up post on the other side of the courtyard, Rosch was struck by a grenade, killing him instantly on the very spot he just withdrew the children from.
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8066/karlheinzwl5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Local artist Riet van der Louw has made a clay model of Rosch saving the kids, and former city-council member Herman van Rouwendaal has asked the city to pay the 9500,- euro's it would cost to cast it in bronze. Since the city has declined to pay, they are now raising money to fund a statue for what is probably The Netherlands' most unlikely war hero.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9088/wehrmacht146967ahi2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Bongopete
03-19-2008, 03:17 PM
Cool news. Like to see the finished work.
Dispatcher
03-19-2008, 03:28 PM
This is for sure going to be good for a lot of debate over here.
They'dd better make sure that the story is also told on a plaque if they display it.
Evil Scientist
03-19-2008, 05:00 PM
This is for sure going to be good for a lot of debate over here.
They'dd better make sure that the story is also told on a plaque if they display it.
Yep because without the story, it's gonna look like an whole other thing.
I like the idea, would do good on 4-5 May festivities.
Maybe the brits can put some money in, was their shell.
NavyTimes
03-19-2008, 06:10 PM
It is always good to see the small guy get the credit he deserves, it was a heroic act well worthy of a memorial.
Eugene Onegin
03-19-2008, 08:50 PM
I wish them luck, IMO if the artist would have depicted the German soldier running with the kids instead of just standing there it would have more impact.
Hypno85
03-19-2008, 09:33 PM
Yep because without the story, it's gonna look like an whole other thing.
I like the idea, would do good on 4-5 May festivities.
Maybe the brits can put some money in, was their shell.
It was a war he was the enemy, we payed our price in men. (Sorry sounds harsh but thats my view).
Any how your be lucky to get any money out of the British Gov.
miguelencanarias
03-19-2008, 09:59 PM
By the way, I think he was Luftwaffe. Fallschirmjäger?
benbach
03-19-2008, 10:22 PM
hmm, not sure, in the sculpture thats not a fallschirmjaegers helmet, but i dont know.
gaijinsamurai
03-19-2008, 11:41 PM
Perhaps he was in a Luftewaffe Field Division, or maybe an anti-aircraft (88?) gunner.
gaijinsamurai
03-19-2008, 11:43 PM
By the way, Rest in Peace, Herr Rosch.
Humanity in conflict is always deserving of recognition. Given this is being constructed by people of the occupied country it only makes the message more meaningful.
PrinzEugen
03-20-2008, 04:54 AM
Interesting story, hope they raise the money and make the statue. I'd like to hear the "childrens" view if they are still alive.
Thanks for posting.
oldsoak
03-20-2008, 09:49 AM
A good deed is agood deed regardless of who carries it out - I'm glad to see him recognised.
As to getting money for it from the Brits - not a chance - we wouldnt do it for a British soldier, never mind a German one !
Basillicus
03-20-2008, 10:37 AM
Nice gesture but on the other hand if there hadn't been German soldiers around there wouldn't have been grenades flying either.
oldsoak
03-20-2008, 01:50 PM
That is true. However, given the circumstances, he showed humanity and compassion and should be honoured as such. A great pity he did not survive the war.
Cdt.Hawkins
03-20-2008, 10:55 PM
I think it's great thing that a once occupied country can erect a statue/memorial to one of the people who helped in the occupation.
It shows that people are seeing beyond the idea of 'every German in ww2 being a nazi'.It really annoys me when you start talking about Germans in ww2 to some one some and they instantly think 'nazi'.
RIP
Sheikh Al Stranghi
03-25-2008, 09:29 AM
I fully agree. He gave his life to help the innocent, and he must be honored for that.
they'd better make damn sure that this guy's record was spotless before putting the statue on display in public regardless of how he died
don't want to find out in 2 or 3 or 10 years that we erected a statue for some butcher
Digital Marine
03-25-2008, 09:59 AM
Nice gesture, but i agree with sp2c.
Better dig through his history incredibly well.
gaijinsamurai
03-25-2008, 10:01 AM
they'd better make damn sure that this guy's record was spotless before putting the statue on display in public regardless of how he died
don't want to find out in 2 or 3 or 10 years that we erected a statue for some butcher
He was 18 and in the Luftewaffe, so chances are he was okay.
I'm not willing to take that chance
besides, the more I think about the more I am against the whole idea.
I say forward all the info we have to the Germans and if they want to do something posthumously then it's fine by me but it's not our job to honor enemy soldiers
I'll reconsider after every single allied soldier that died on Dutch soil not just for two little children but for every little Dutch child and his/her family got his own statue
Basillicus
03-25-2008, 01:30 PM
It shows that people are seeing beyond the idea of 'every German in ww2 being a nazi'.It really annoys me when you start talking about Germans in ww2 to some one some and they instantly think 'nazi'.
RIP
Though for example this case doesn't show whether or not this soldier was a nazi, it's not like even all nazis were baby eating monsters. It was the dominant ideology in the country back those days so certainly a lot of people were "nazis", especially kids who were grown up by this society, but naturally there were all kinds of nazies. Some were all bad, but others not necessarely. Maybe this guy was a fanatic nazi raised by Hilter Jugend, but was still ready to risk his life saving these kids. Or then he was a good guy who was fighting only because he was forced to, who knows.
Digital Marine
03-25-2008, 08:00 PM
I'm not willing to take that chance
besides, the more I think about the more I am against the whole idea.
I say forward all the info we have to the Germans and if they want to do something posthumously then it's fine by me but it's not our job to honor enemy soldiers
I'll reconsider after every single allied soldier that died on Dutch soil not just for two little children but for every little Dutch child and his/her family got his own statue
That's a very interesting point.
How many American/British/Canadian soldiers died trying to save Dutch people from getting killed by the Germans got their own statue? Not a whole lot if you ask me.
wilhelm
03-28-2008, 09:25 AM
For goodness sake people .... this is a private initiative by the people of a town to recognise the bravery shown in the rescue of 2 of their little ones.
The greater political field is probably rightly not even being considered by them in this ultimate isolated gift he gave to the childrens parents or family.
Is there so little humanity left here...?
I can go for a gift to friends and family alike but we are talking about a public statue for an individual wehrmacht soldier
he didn't get killed saving these children, he got killed taking up a defensive position in order to prolong the german occupation (or even prevent the liberation of) the Netherlands
screw this guy, I don't want it
wilhelm
03-28-2008, 10:19 AM
No problem sp2c. But the fact is that he did save those two kids, and the people of the town want to honour him for that deed. Do you live in Goirle?
Holycrusader
03-28-2008, 11:46 AM
I can go for a gift to friends and family alike but we are talking about a public statue for an individual wehrmacht soldier
he didn't get killed saving these children, he got killed taking up a defensive position in order to prolong the german occupation (or even prevent the liberation of) the Netherlands
screw this guy, I don't want it
I see good way of thinking here. Fully agree...
Pvt.Anderson
03-28-2008, 12:01 PM
Nice gesture but on the other hand if there hadn't been German soldiers around there wouldn't have been grenades flying either.
You're right, of course, but it wasn't HIS particular fault was it? I greatly welcome this statue, maybe it helps to change the general image of the wehrmacht being an organization made up only from criminal monsters, but many many good, human individuals like him being 18 and forced into a war for whose beginning they can't be held responsible for.
I can go for a gift to friends and family alike but we are talking about a public statue for an individual wehrmacht soldier
he didn't get killed saving these children, he got killed taking up a defensive position in order to prolong the german occupation (or even prevent the liberation of) the Netherlands
screw this guy, I don't want it
To be honest I'd say in a way he did. If he just stayed in cover the whole situation would never have happened that way.
It's quite sad to see that you equate this 18 year old guy with nazi crimes and the german "reign" over netherlands and are not able to see this deed of humanity
No problem sp2c. But the fact is that he did save those two kids, and the people of the town want to honour him for that deed. Do you live in Goirle?
no, do you?
how is this relevant?
To be honest I'd say in a way he did. If he just stayed in cover the whole situation would never have happened that way.
It's quite sad to see that you equate this 18 year old guy with nazi crimes and the german "reign" over netherlands and are not able to see this deed of humanity
I don't think I've even mentioned the word Nazi in this topic, let alone their crimes so please do not put words in my mouth and the sheer notion that I can't see the value of what he did is downright insulting
fact is, conscript or not he was an enemy soldier
he wasn't there to save little children he was there to occupy the Netherlands and fight off allied attacks to free the country, that's why he went back out and that's how he got killed
FriFraFro
03-28-2008, 02:24 PM
Still ...
For goodness sake people .... this is a private initiative by the people of a town to recognise the bravery shown in the rescue of 2 of their little ones.
The greater political field is probably rightly not even being considered by them in this ultimate isolated gift he gave to the childrens parents or family.
Is there so little humanity left here...? ill have to agree.
yeah well the allies wouldn't have been shelling the place if the germans weren't fighting so hard, I wonder if this guy killed any allied soldiers trying to liberate the place.
the royal Netherlands brigade "Princess Irene" was fighting in the region at that point as well I believe ... Market Garden was a month before this happened
again, his (combat) history needs to be researched very thoroughly ... and then I'd still be against putting the statue in a public spot
Indiana Jones
03-29-2008, 11:25 AM
yeah well the allies wouldn't have been shelling the place if the germans weren't fighting so hard, I wonder if this guy killed any allied soldiers trying to liberate the place.
the royal Netherlands brigade "Princess Irene" was fighting in the region at that point as well I believe ... Market Garden was a month before this happened
again, his (combat) history needs to be researched very thoroughly ... and then I'd still be against putting the statue in a public spot
Spec, first off, this boy was basically still a kid, even though on the day of his death he acted like a man. I presume you are not much older which is perhaps why you don`t understand. Whether he did indeed kill Allied soldiers, perhaps even your compatriots, is not pertinent to the moral features of his actions. Killing or otherwise neutralising enemy combatants is, of course, the primary duty of a soldier in wartime and not a priori damnable. Just to clarify the epistemological perspective: The capacity in which he was present, as a soldier of the Wehrmacht, which in turn served a criminal regime, and subjugated your homecountry, is not what is to be honoured. What is to be honoured is his decision, as an individual to expose himself to mortal danger in order to save two toddlers, which he was under no obligation whatsoever to do. These issues are separate. Whether you think that does warrant the erection of a statue or not is of course up to you, but perhaps you should ask the parents. They might be able to give you a more fitting outlook than any of us can.
Regards
Fine then honour him as an individual and leave the wehrmacht uniform out of the equasion
And then I'd still be against a public statue for reasons allready stated, no matter how you spin it he was still an enemy soldier. What's next a statue for the commander that decided not to fire at the bombers dropping food for operation Manna?
saved more innocent lives then this man did
and I am 10 years older btw
Indiana Jones
03-29-2008, 11:52 AM
Fine then honour him as an individual and leave the wehrmacht uniform out of the equasion
And then I'd still be against a public statue for reasons allready stated, no matter how you spin it he was still an enemy soldier. What's next a statue for the commander that decided not to fire at the bombers dropping food for operation Manna?
saved more innocent lives then this man did
and I am 10 years older btw
Whether the man carried a tutu or a spacesuit is irrelevant, but the statue would be quite absurd if it showed him in any of the former would`nt it ?
What is the point ? That somebody formally is an "enemy of your country" (again, just as a reality check, we are talking about an 18 year old Luftwaffe draftee) would be making him a different kind of human being, and precludee him from being honoured regardless of his actions ? Speaking of reciprocity: If future possible "enemies of one`s country" would have been the dominating mindset of the gentleman in question, what kind of action would he have taken, or rather not taken in the situation at hand ? All those factors are, under both moral and formal philosophical auspices arbitrary and ultimately meaningless.
Cheers
the point is that erecting a statue for a whermacht soldier that got killed in combat with people trying to liberate our country is insulting to the people doing the liberating
to me whatever he did prior to that is, wether he was conscripted or not and or wether he was a devoted nazi or not is irrelevant. He was still an enemy soldier fighting to keep our country occupied and he got killed for it
Indiana Jones
03-29-2008, 12:21 PM
the point is that erecting a statue for a whermacht soldier that got killed in combat with people trying to liberate our country is insulting to the people doing the liberating
to me whatever he did prior to that is, wether he was conscripted or not and or wether he was a devoted nazi or not is irrelevant. He was still an enemy soldier fighting to keep our country occupied and he got killed for it
I disagree entirely.
If you asked the liberators of your country whether they would take offence at erecting a statue for an 18 year old Wehrmacht soldier for having saved two kids what would the answer of the overwhelming majority probably be ? I do not think one needs to be much of a prophet to guess it.
As to your second paragraph, again, how is this pertinent with regards to the individual and his moral qualities or the lack thereof? Your statement is merely analytical. Yes, he was an enemy soldier, an occupant. Yes, that is why he got killed. So what ? None of this necessarily makes anybody a lesser man.
I disagree entirely.
If you asked the liberators of your country whether they would take offence at erecting a statue for an 18 year old Wehrmacht soldier for having saved two kids what would the answer of the overwhelming majority probably be ? I do not think one needs to be much of a prophet to guess it.
indeed ... it would be no
most would probably say "good shoot" in regards to the artillerymen and walk away
As to your second paragraph, again, how is this pertinent with regards to the individual and his moral qualities or the lack thereof? Your statement is merely analytical. Yes, he was an enemy soldier, an occupant. Yes, that is why he got killed. So what ? None of this necessarily makes anybody a lesser man.
it doesn't make him a lesser man but it does make erecting a statue in his honour in the country he was occupying less then desirable
Indiana Jones
03-29-2008, 12:59 PM
indeed ... it would be no
most would probably say "good shoot" in regards to the artillerymen and walk away
This is where we will have to agree to disagree, then. Some were undeniably vindictive, some xenophobic. Many, if not most, were not, at least not particularly.
it doesn't make him a lesser man but it does make erecting a statue in his honour in the country he was occupying less then desirable
Well perhaps. But if one has to weigh the alleged "guilt by association" of a juvenile being part of an occupation force with his very concrete deed of saving two children under mortal danger, than Imo the scales are heavily tipped in his favour. Some of your compatriots seem to share that view.
Digital Marine
03-29-2008, 02:33 PM
I am also against it.
He was still a part of the German war machine, this machine killed alot of people in my country. Hell, where didn't they kill people?
My grandma had to survive in the winter by eating tulips.. as did hundreds of thousands of other grandmas
I don't care whether he was part of the SS or the Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht and i do see the difference between those. But they were still Germans in the war. Thus making them the enemy and responsible for all the mess they created here.
Some of your compatriots seem to share that view.
what's that got to do with anything?
some share my view as well, neither does the city of Goirle ... now what?
I'm fairly sure this is a discussion forum where I can share my views & opinions regardless of what the majority thinks
Mackie
03-29-2008, 03:27 PM
I am also against it.
He was still a part of the German war machine, this machine killed alot of people in my country. Hell, where didn't they kill people?
My grandma had to survive in the winter by eating tulips.. as did hundreds of thousands of other grandmas
I don't care whether he was part of the SS or the Luftwaffe/Wehrmacht and i do see the difference between those. But they were still Germans in the war. Thus making them the enemy and responsible for all the mess they created here.
I am German and I would never justify the German war crimes in WW2.
Every reputable German answers for this dark history. And I am proud that
we have an never ending civil and political movement against racism.
Not every nation has worked up his (historical) (war) crimes or prosecuted the Nazis consequent. (von Braun, Barbie - The butcher of Lyon)
But in 1941 the SS killed my first great-grandfather in a concentration camp. Reason: He said in an restaurant that Hitler will destroy our country. In 1944 the Nazis hanged a second great-grandfather on the market place in the city. Reason: He hid a Jew. A SA member has betrayed him.
The brother of my grandfather suicided in 1943 after he returns from the eastern front.
I know that the Wehrmacht brings terror all over Europe.
It's an dutch decision to honor the soldier.
BTW:
You see the problem. A lot of people still think Germans = Nazis; and we try to show the world that the aggressive German exist no longer.
On the other side we are "the old Europe" because we don't support offensive strategies in Nato missions.
we don't think Germans = Nazi's, that's all in the past and we're good friends again (untill the next big soccer tournament) and it (at least in my case) has absolutely nothing to do with german involvement in NATO ops
and apperantly the Dutch decision was against it (the city isn't financing it in any case which makes a public display unlikely) so now they are raising funds for the statue that doesn't mean we can't discuss our respective points of view.
it's what the people the soldier in question fought against died for ...
Digital Marine
03-29-2008, 05:30 PM
I am German and I would never justify the German war crimes in WW2.
Every reputable German answers for this dark history. And I am proud that
we have an never ending civil and political movement against racism.
Not every nation has worked up his (historical) (war) crimes or prosecuted the Nazis consequent. (von Braun, Barbie - The butcher of Lyon)
But in 1941 the SS killed my first great-grandfather in a concentration camp. Reason: He said in an restaurant that Hitler will destroy our country. In 1944 the Nazis hanged a second great-grandfather on the market place in the city. Reason: He hid a Jew. A SA member has betrayed him.
The brother of my grandfather suicided in 1943 after he returns from the eastern front.
I know that the Wehrmacht brings terror all over Europe.
It's an dutch decision to honor the soldier.
BTW:
You see the problem. A lot of people still think Germans = Nazis; and we try to show the world that the aggressive German exist no longer.
On the other side we are "the old Europe" because we don't support offensive strategies in Nato missions.
I know not all Germans were Nazis, and i know that Wehrmacht is not SS. I have nothing against Germany in any way. Unless you mean the drunk tourists, but ok.
I respect the common WWII German soldiers as human beings and as militarymen. But i would never erect a statue of them in my country.
They were the enemy regardless if they shared the fascist ideas of their leader.
johanness
03-29-2008, 06:52 PM
They were the enemy regardless if they shared the fascist ideas of their leader.
I respect any soldier from any army who risks his life in rescuing a children on a combatfield, regardless what uniform he wore.
If that would be a problem for you, you are a sad a$$hole
Mackie
03-29-2008, 06:55 PM
I said not all. But as German you see Nazi-comments in every discussion an every media.
For a Nato mission you need the agreement of the population. Without that it is an political suicide. And a mission like Astan needs more than 4 years.
Endless Nazi comparisons on every media gives the Germans not the self-confidence to be an global player in security.
That's what I mean.
Examples:.
Some weeks ago, a house in Germany burned out and some turkish immigrants died. Before any results of the police research were released, the turkish press writes about Nazis, swastikas were shown on mainstream TV stations. Turkish published their propaganda on mp.com.
After the 8:0 against Saudi Arabia at the WC2002, British press write about "Blitzkrieg". I was in Stuttgart 2006 and hear the British "10 German bomber,......."
Only 2 examples. You can say that it is funny and we shouldn't take it seriously. But the mass and endless present of such international voices has an influence to the Germans. Not to me because I have an objective and clear look at international press. But to the mass.
In every other nation in the world, such influence would increase the nationalism. Not in Germany.
Mackie
03-29-2008, 07:05 PM
I know not all Germans were Nazis, and i know that Wehrmacht is not SS. I have nothing against Germany in any way. Unless you mean the drunk tourists, but ok.
I respect the common WWII German soldiers as human beings and as militarymen. But i would never erect a statue of them in my country.
They were the enemy regardless if they shared the fascist ideas of their leader.
I know. But often it feels like. Especially if press writes about it.
Difficult to explain.
And I know that every Wehrmacht soldier COULD be an criminal.
The Wehrmacht was not specialized in killing civilians, but they fought under the same rules. It was very different and depended on the stance of the commanding officer.
My grandmother was rescued by german officer during WWII. German soldiers surrounded square of streets and arrested everyone inside (normal thing in occupied Poland). But this officer took my grandmother and told, that she is his girlfriend, so german soldiers allowed her to go.
There were good and evil people in every army.
Digital Marine
03-30-2008, 06:48 PM
I respect any soldier from any army who risks his life in rescuing a children on a combatfield, regardless what uniform he wore.
If that would be a problem for you, you are a sad a$$hole
Ok, whatever.. Jerkoff.
I respect the soldier but he doesn't need a damn statue.
How many soldiers got killed trying to save a kid? want to built them all a statue? Why not just make a statue for all soldiers that did something heroic like that. Not just single one of them out.
SineJustitia
04-13-2008, 07:00 AM
Just a thought: would this kid have gotten a statue (or at least the initiative to erect one) if he had survived the war?
Somehow I don't think so; it feels like the initiators feel sorry for him because he died so shortly after rescuing those kids... Which makes the initiative a bit awkward, since his death had little to do with his heroic act (apart from illustrating the danger).
I personally think the Netherlands are way over "Ze Djermans = Nazi" stance, so this gesture to illustrate our new found friendship is meant in a good way, but it fails to take into account the broader picture.
Yes, the 18 year old LW-conscript was a hero for saving those kids.
No, given the circumstances and all those who died fighting him, liberating the country those two kids lived him, and not getting a statue, in this case a statue is simply overdone.
Give the guy a simple bronze plaque on the spot where it happened.
Hilbert
04-13-2008, 03:58 PM
While I don't sympathize with the army he fought for, his actions are nevertheless worthy of merit IMO; as one guy said, a good deed is still a good deed. As to what should be done to remember this man -- whether it be a statue, plaque, or otherwise, I'd say leave that to the people of the town where it's going to be placed.
R.I.P. to Karl-Heinz Rosch, regardless of whether or not he gets a statue or written in stone, he's a hero in my book.
gaijinsamurai
04-14-2008, 01:27 AM
Well said, Hilbert!
Polygon
04-14-2008, 03:13 AM
I hope enough is raised to get the statue casted, fascinating story!
wilhelm
04-14-2008, 08:35 AM
I personally think the Netherlands are way over "Ze Djermans = Nazi" stance,
Some of the posts here would suggest otherwise.:-(
Niels
04-14-2008, 09:00 AM
Some of the posts here would suggest otherwise.:-(
That's just silly, we're way past that. Some people just find raising a statue for a soldier that fought for a regime that occupied us and murdered tens of thousands of countrymen, hard to swallow. The bad deeds outweigh the good deeds, to put it simply.
Personally, I don't really care. It's a privately paid statue.
Some of the posts here would suggest otherwise.:-(
which ones?
we've allways liked the Germans, WW2 never really changed that ... but, I don't want to see statues of wehrmacht soldiers in public places, especially not if they (albeit technically) died in combat
as said, I'll reconsider after every allied soldier that died has got his statue
and yes I know it's not up to me, I don't live there and I'm definately not going to donate any money but I'm still entitled to my own opinion and that is an 'unfortunate' side effect of the army in question losing the war
Eztyga
04-14-2008, 10:55 AM
hmm, not sure, in the sculpture thats not a fallschirmjaegers helmet, but i dont know.
Toward the end of the war FJ were issued with either the FJ helmet or the normal Heer issue helmet. This mainly occured among the newer Divisions as more and more of their intakes were FJ in name only as many had never qualified for the jump badge.
Ezy
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.