Austrian camo??

[Trenk]

Hello, I know bundesheer uses now khaki uniform, are they planning to find out some kind of camo? I am not saying this one is not good, just asking. I like zippered pockets on austrian uniforms... nothing´s gonna get lost.
And in the desert, what kind of uniform do you use?? Thanks guys

[nickless]

The Austrian uniforms are olive in color (more precisely a brownish-grey color called "RAL 7013"), desert uniforms are a solid sand (tan/khaki) color:

http://www.doppeladler.com/oebh/tschad/uniformen1.jpg

[Trenk]

The Austrian uniforms are olive in color (more precisely a brownish-grey color called "RAL 7013"), desert uniforms are a solid sand (tan/khaki) color:

http://www.doppeladler.com/oebh/tschad/uniformen1.jpg

damn link doesn´t work but thanks anyway

[nickless]

Try copying the link address and pasting it in a new window.

[Trenk]

thanks... is it possible to buy that "hosen" via net?(of course it is, but where:-) )

[Chris]

we wont never get something else beside the ral 7013.

When the army decided to get new uniforms, couple of years ago, they thought about a new camo, but its too "militarily"...too militarily for the army..jep, welcome to Austria

[Trenk]

damn... not only one who´s military is not too "military". At least you got Glocks, that´s so good pistol...

[meatrabbit]

we wont never get something else beside the ral 7013.

When the army decided to get new uniforms, couple of years ago, they thought about a new camo, but its too "militarily"...too militarily for the army..jep, welcome to Austria

yeap, like in afghanistan they (the government) feared that the austrian soldiers on peacekeeping operations are mistaken as US soldiers if they wear the same camo (they use the old US pattern (3 colour) at the Golan heights but not in afghanistan as it would have been to dangerous (???)).

For reasons like this they decided to go on with one coloured camo. However...

[Trenk]

Austria is overall VERY antimilitaristic country, or at least I got that impression during my holidays in Vienna(beautiful city by the way). There are no military stores or armyshops, or just ones with mainly camping gear, no military books in bookstores(I tried like six of them), even it´s pretty rare to meet some guy in cargo pants or some kind of this fashion... I wanted to visit military museum, but they have only expositions older that WW1, and mostly facts about generals and rulers, not many weapons and stuff like that. But there is nothing wrong with that, people there are pretty happy I guess.

[Connaught Ranger]

Austria is overall VERY antimilitaristic country, or at least I got that impression during my holidays in Vienna(beautiful city by the way). There are no military stores or armyshops, or just ones with mainly camping gear, no military books in bookstores(I tried like six of them), even it´s pretty rare to meet some guy in cargo pants or some kind of this fashion... I wanted to visit military museum, but they have only expositions older that WW1, and mostly facts about generals and rulers, not many weapons and stuff like that. But there is nothing wrong with that, people there are pretty happy I guess.

Perhaps you should have looked around more while there:roll:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Heresgeschichtliches Museum http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/Heeresgeschichtliches_Entrance.jpg/200px-Heeresgeschichtliches_Entrance.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Heeresgeschichtliches_Entrance.jpg)

Established
Location Vienna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna), Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) Website http://www.hgm.or.at/ http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/HGM_Wien.jpg/180px-HGM_Wien.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HGM_Wien.jpg) http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:HGM_Wien.jpg)
Heeresgeschichtliches Museum (Overview)


The Heeresgeschichtliches Museum is a military history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history) museum located in Vienna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna), Austria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria). It claims to be the oldest and largest purpose-built military history museum in the world.



Its collection includes one of the world's largest collections of bronze cannon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon) and focuses on Austrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria) military history from the 16th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16th_century) to 1945 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945).


The museum is located in Vienna's Arsenal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_%28Vienna%29), in the Landstraße (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landstra%C3%9Fe) district, not far from the Belvedere palace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belvedere_%28palace%29).



It was constructed between 1850 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1850) and 1856 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1856) at the behest of Emperor Franz Joseph I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Joseph_of_Austria) as the new city garrison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garrison), after the old one was destroyed in the 1848 revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revolutions_of_1848_in_the_German_states).



The museum, at the Arsenal's center, was part of the original design and was to serve as both a historical museum and a shrine to the Empire's military victories and leaders. (According to the Museums' official website (http://www.hgm.or.at/eng/), it is the oldest museum in Vienna.)



It consists of five major parts: a main entrance hall containing the tomb-like Hall of Generals, and four large exhibit halls, in which the collections are kept.



The bronze cannon are arranged outside the museum, on the Arsenal grounds.


Each of the four exhibit halls is devoted to a segment of Austrian history, beginning with the Thirty Years' War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War) and the Ottoman Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Turks), continuing through the Napoleonic Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Wars), World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I), and World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II).



There is also a small special exhibition hall where the contents are changed regularly.



One of the most notable parts of the Museum's collection is located in the World War One hall, and pertains to the assassination of the Archduke Francis Ferdinand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_in_Sarajevo).



On display are the automobile in which the Archduke and his wife were riding when they were assassinated, the uniform he was wearing, the pistol he was shot with, and the chaise longue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaise_longue) on which he was declared dead.


Other notable exhibits include the original shipbuilder's model of the battleship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship) SMS Viribus Unitis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Viribus_Unitis), flagship of the Austro-Hungarian naval fleet during World War One, and the remains of the U.20, an Austro-Hungarian military submarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submarine) sunk in combat in 1918.

Connaught Ranger.

PS you might also care to take a look at:-

http://www.bunkermuzeum.hu/index_en.html?/Bunkermuzeum/tarsmuzeumok/ausztria2_en.htm

[Connaught Ranger]

Category:Museum of the Festung Hohensalzburg

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"Tiroler Kaiserjägermuseum"

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Things can be found its just a matter of looking.

Connaught Ranger:)

[Trenk]

Thanks buddy, but museum in Vienna you wrote about is really concerning only history BEFORE and during WW1. Other museums are not in Vienna.

[Connaught Ranger]

Thanks buddy, but museum in Vienna you wrote about is really concerning only history BEFORE and during WW1. Other museums are not in Vienna.


Yes but Vienna is not the whole of Ostereich:p but, if the mountain wont come to Mohamed, then Mohamed must go to the mountain.

In other words there is stuff there you have to look.

Here in Romania the biggest Military Museum is way over in Bucharest, and I happen to live on the opposite side of the country, but, I still manage to get in at least one visit a year.

Connaught Ranger:)

[Trenk]

cool... but anyway, it´s much more non-military country than any of its neighbours... no doubts about that

[domokun]

BTW. ConnaughtRanger I was about start naggin you about WTF are you posting here, but then I saw the partially bolded quote...

Back to topic.

That not-to-be-mistaken-as-American thing has been major consideration to Finnish desert camo's design too, that's major reason why there is so much green as there is. In my opinion it's bit funny... no it's actually silly as it reduces usefulness of camo pattern.

[Chris O`Crooh]

That may be interesting :)
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-1892

Prototypes of Austrian pixelflage shown at military exhibition in Poland. Intersting fact is that those uniforms are made for peacekeeping Austrian troops. Well, I hope that the whole Austrian Heer will be issued with that great camo!

[Aldo Penniconi]

The middle one which is seen at the background of the last photo looks like Tigerstripe camo at that point.

[Catch22]

That may be interesting :)
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-1892

Prototypes of Austrian pixelflage shown at military exhibition in Prague, Czech Republic . Intersting fact is that those uniforms are made for peacekeeping Austrian troops. Well, I hope that the whole Austrian Heer will be issued with that great camo!

fixed it for ya

[jaegerkommando]

Interesting - anyone got any more info about those?

[dersammler]

very interesting. i heard some stories about it i've never seen it before.

[meatrabbit]

Never seen it before and never heard about it before. When was this military exhibition?

[Catch22]

Last thursday&friday.

[Murmelmann]

The woodland camo looks a lot like the Swiss one.

[dersammler]

the taz90???

[Murmelmann]

Yes, at least colorwise, not exactly a digital TAZ90 but close.

[Blutarsky]

yeap, like in afghanistan they (the government) feared that the austrian soldiers on peacekeeping operations are mistaken as US soldiers if they wear the same camo (they use the old US pattern (3 colour) at the Golan heights but not in afghanistan as it would have been to dangerous (???)).

For reasons like this they decided to go on with one coloured camo. However...

They did that with good reason:
1. We produces our own destinctive uniform for a veeeeery long time (except WW2 were Austria did not exist). A lot of our uniform parts are cut in this tradition (field cap).

2. The danger of beeing mixed up was clearly given. US troops are the majority in Afghanistan and Austrias involvement was very little. I don't want to be the one who explains that something happend because of wearing another countries uniform. At Golan the situation is totally different to Afghanistan.


People at my age and above might remember that Austria did use Camo after WW2 based on Flecktarn. Before they go back to a pattern they have be sure it is better than OD (OD is maybe not very inovative but it works) and they have to get the funds to do it.

[Connaught Ranger]

They did that with good reason:
1. We produces our own destinctive uniform for a veeeeery long time (except WW2 were Austria did not exist). A lot of our uniform parts are cut in this tradition (field cap).

2. The danger of beeing mixed up was clearly given. US troops are the majority in Afghanistan and Austrias involvement was very little. I don't want to be the one who explains that something happend because of wearing another countries uniform. At Golan the situation is totally different to Afghanistan.


People at my age and above might remember that Austria did use Camo after WW2 based on Flecktarn. Before they go back to a pattern they have be sure it is better than OD (OD is maybe not very inovative but it works) and they have to get the funds to do it.


The post WW2 Austrian camo variation were based on SS pattern camo schemes from WW2, with a change of colour.

I believe "flecktarn" is a name used for the more modern Bundeswher camo scheme.

Connaught Ranger:)

[Eztyga]

The spotted pattern was designed for forest, with the base colour of 'brick red' to help conceal the wearer in urban areas.

The shelter half had two patterns, one the 'spots', which could nominally be said to be based on an WSS pattern, the other side was 'splinter', designed for use in high mountain areas.

Ezy

[Blutarsky]

The spotted pattern was designed for forest, with the base colour of 'brick red' to help conceal the wearer in urban areas.

The shelter half had two patterns, one the 'spots', which could nominally be said to be based on an WSS pattern, the other side was 'splinter', designed for use in high mountain areas.

Ezy
True for the one man tent thing. The smocks had the brownish spots on the one side and white wintercam on the other as far as I remember.
They were quite warm and cosy. The camo worked in forest especially in autumn. The real name is "Erbsentarn" translated in Peapattern.
Whole thing goes back to the "Flecktarn" of the Waffen SS. There is even a german Wiki article on it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erbsentarn#.C3.96sterreich.

[Connaught Ranger]

True for the one man tent thing. The smocks had the brownish spots on the one side and white wintercam on the other as far as I remember.
They were quite warm and cosy. The camo worked in forest especially in autumn. The real name is "Erbsentarn" translated in Peapattern.
Whole thing goes back to the "Flecktarn" of the Waffen SS. There is even a german Wiki article on it: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erbsentarn#.C3.96sterreich.

The person who submitted the article to Wiki is wrong in my opinion, the term "Flecktarn" was never used in the period of WW2 in any German Military Camo descriptions.

Even the Austrians themselves refered to it as:


Das österreichische Erbsentarnmuster, hergestellt von 1957 bis 1978

[Blutarsky]

The person who submitted the article to Wiki is wrong in my opinion, the term "Flecktarn" was never used in the period of WW2 in any German Military Camo descriptions.

Even the Austrians themselves refered to it as:

You mean Wikipedia is WRONG?????? Impossible! :)

To be honest I don't care if anybody called it back then Flecktarn. And we will never find out....

[dersammler]

The smocks had the brownish spots on the one side and white wintercam on the other as far as I remember.
they are not reversible.

the pattern is officially called M57 but also known as K4 or others...

[Blutarsky]

You got one of those smocks on your avatar don't you? Funny wit a Leo patch. There is no match on the timeline....
I thought they were reversible with the white inner stuff. At my time they were put down for use for "enemies" in exercises.

they are not reversible.

the pattern is officially called M57 but also known as K4 or others...

[dersammler]

i just put that patch on the jacket for the photo. looks better with a camo background ;)
and it's still used for opfor stuff...

[Connaught Ranger]

You mean Wikipedia is WRONG?????? Impossible! :)

To be honest I don't care if anybody called it back then Flecktarn. And we will never find out....

Well, sorry to be so pendantic, but, if you want to establish the correct history and connections to military items, (including camo) in the true course of events then you have to care what its called. By using a modern term such as "flecktarn" in conjunction with "Waffen ss" you are compounding a modern mistake as fact.

German Camo has been documented extensively in such books as "WAFFEN-SS UNIFORMEN IN FARBE" by Andrew Steven & Peter Amodio in the Europa Militaria No 6 Series.I did not see the word Flecktarn mentioned once, but such terms as:-

Tarnschlupfjacke,

Platanenmuster,

Palmenmuster,

Eichenlaubmuster,

Fleckenmuster,

Herbsttarnmuster,

Erbsenmuster,

Frühjahr/Sommer Eichenlaubtarnung,

are feeely used but not a single "Flecktarn" to be seen.

Connaught Ranger.:)

[Amethystfretchen]

The only known original name for a Waffen-SS pattern is "Leibermuster 1945'. All other names are made up post war. Flecktarn means 'camouflage trough speckles' and is thought to be designed after certain WW2 patterns (Platanentarn). The name describes not only the look of the pattern but also the principle how it works (like 'digi/pixel-camo'). So it's okay to backward designate the SS camo as "flecktarnish'...

[Amethystfretchen]

The linked german wikipedia-article counts even the modern digital patterns like CADPAT/MARPAT as sub-group of Flecktarn. In a way, it makes sense: They work after the same principle. The 'modern' touch are just the 'pixels'. And that just means that the edges of the structures which create the pattern are digital and not analog. That in turn seems to me has no additional effect for improving the functional effectivness of the patterns, but makes it just simpler to programm the software, with which the patterns are created on the computer. (But it's just my guessing, could be wrong...).

The 'Fleck' of Flecktarn' comes not from 'stain' but from 'speckle' (...'Lichtfleck-Tarnung' -?). This Prof. Schick when he designed the patterns in the 30's was looking how light/shadow and the leaves of vegetation are interacting in nature. The last Leibermuster pattern added black 'branches' (like shadows from trees') above it:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2322/2246422728_5824ddd112.jpghttp://www.nexternal.com/armynavy/images/woodland.jpghttp://jonathanmurray.com/images/MARPAT.jpg
post war chezlovakian Leibermuster left/ US woodland right, MARPAT bottom

wikipedia about speckles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speckle_pattern

[Amethystfretchen]

The polish 'Urban Flecktarn' is 'just' a "'pseudo'-flecktarn", because

"A speckle pattern is a random intensity pattern produced by the mutual interference of a set of wavefronts." (wiki)
The 'Urban Flecktarn' is just the same small pattern-area "copy&pasted to the power of whatever". But that means not, that it would be not functional.

[Connaught Ranger]

The only known original name for a Waffen-SS pattern is "Leibermuster 1945'. All other names are made up post war. Flecktarn means 'camouflage trough speckles' and is thought to be designed after certain WW2 patterns (Platanentarn). The name describes not only the look of the pattern but also the principle how it works (like 'digi/pixel-camo'). So it's okay to backward designate the SS camo as "flecktarnish'...

"Leibermuster 1945" a very rare type of Ss camo, is so named as its the only documented designation that survived specific to the 10 types of SS camo and was the subject of a report by a member of the U.S. Quartermaster Corps immediate post WW2.

But that does not explain:-

Reichswehr Splittermuster 31 (1931) mainly groundsheets

Luftwaffe Splitermuster 41 (1941)

Wehrmact Sumpmuster 44 (1944)

Heeres Splittermuster 45 (1945)

for example.

WW2 German Quartermaster's must have used some form of name to

identify their requirements, none of which would carry the designation

Flecktarn or Flecktarnish. :roll:

The Austrian pattern post WW2 was designated Erbsenmuster (Pea-pattern)

and in my opinion contained no design elements of "Platanentarn" in design.

Connaught Ranger:)

[Eztyga]

^ I'm sure that Splitternmuster 31 was the correct designation, as used by the German QM.

I was under the impression that it was the WSS camo that was 'un-named', though I find it hard to believe that they would be un-namedas the Germans are a bit anal about detail...:)

I don't have any of my reference books, so it is a bit hard to research, and there are so many inaccuracies with many web-sites.

It causes plenty of confusion, I have seen people ripped off buying what they thought was a para smock or the like, only to find that it was a post-war BGS 'marsh' pattern.

[Amethystfretchen]

@ Connaught Ranger:

Splittermuster etc. is all Heer.

Youself has listed "Fleckenmuster" as an example-designation from your book . ('Flecken' = plural of Fleck/'muster' = pattern). That's a post-war designation. At least it shows that there is a Waffen-SS pattern out there, named 'this way' before the creation of Flecktarn.

The austrian camo was offical called Erbsentarn/muster after the SS pattern.
The field nickname was - guess what - „Fleckerlteppich“. (again before creation of modern flecktarn)
That's Austrian dialect for "Fleckenteppich".
Again 'Flecken' is the plural from 'Fleck' and a 'Teppich' is just a carpet.
I call it Österfleck or Ötzifleck.

[lastdingo]

http://soldiersystems.net/2009/05/28/new-austrian-camo/

[SilentType]

I don't understand the concern over being "mistaken" for the U.S. Military.

If Austria deploys to Afghanistan and they are identified as soldiers from a nation other than the United States of America this will not give them some special pass. In fact, if Austrians can be easily identified as Austrians in Afghanistan it may only cause more Taliban and al Qaeda assets to be allocated to fight them. The French and other ISAF forces have all been tested and continue to be tested under the belief that it is easier to drive out ISAF by going after nations with less of a political commitment to the conflict.