Informations request : Antique machine-gun in use today ?

[Kragh]

I just read these two interesting articles about a danish machine-gun design:
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_madsen_machinegun
http://modern-war.suite101.com/article.cfm/madsen_machinegun_variants

They mention this very old gun is still being used in Souut America (Brazillian special police police units) as late as 2007.

http://images.suite101.com/314848_com_madsenbrazil.jpg


This made me wonder:
Why on earth would a modern army/police unit use such an old fashioned gun when they already have modern weapons available ?
Surely the guns must be worn-out and a nightmare to maintain but do they really represent an advantage over newer weapons other than alreay being in the arsenals ?

I have used google in search of more knowlegde about this weapon but found very little.

My questions are:

1.Does anybody know the real reasons for the guns being used by Brazil ?
2.Does anybody know for sure which countries stil use the guns officially today ?
3. China is being mentioned as a major user in the 1930'es and 1940'es and the guns should have been encountered in the Korean and Vietnames wars. Any hard evidence (links + photos) ?

thanks in advance :)

[Jarhead]

Whats antic?
We are using the MG 3, based on the MG 42

[Kragh]

Whats antic?
We are using the MG 3, based on the MG 42

So are Denmark/Norway/Turkey/Pakistan etc.

But the Madsen machine-gun design originates from around 1893 or so and the very last were built in 1955 :)

It is really an very old design

[Jarhead]

How about the 1911 Colt or the M2 Browning?

[rnaf]

old guns just kick more ass, thats why.

[Ought Six]

The Ma Deuce .50 HMG was introduced at the end of WWI. The M1919 is also still in use (rechambered for 7.62mm NATO) by Israel, if I am not mistaken. India, Pakistan and Nepal still have the .303 Vickers machine gun in reserve, and that is just a version of the 19th century Maxim design.

[kutter]

I think Kragh's talking more about an old gun that hasn't been produced in more than 50 years being used.

Weapons like the MG42, M2, 1911, etc. are old designs that are still being produced today and are easy to get spares for.

Maybe their continuing to use the Madsen b/c it serves their purpose well. It might be worth noting that MGs made at that time were often very precisely made with a majority of the parts made being machined and not stamped. If anything those guns were designed to last a very long time.

[Kragh]

I think Kragh's talking more about an old gun that hasn't been produced in more than 50 years being used.

Weapons like the MG42, M2, 1911, etc. are old designs that are still being produced today and are easy to get spares for.

Maybe their continuing to use the Madsen b/c it serves their purpose well. It might be worth noting that MGs made at that time were often very precisely made with a majority of the parts made being machined and not stamped. If anything those guns were designed to last a very long time.

You're right on spot :)
My point is that these old slow firing (approx 400-450 Rounds pr. minute) guns must be considered obsolete and difficult to maintain ( they are well-built but handmade, which makes replacing worn parts difficult)
Unlike many other designs this particular gun is no longer in production and it has never been produced using modern mass-producing techniques.

I have seen YOUTUBE videos of BOPE (The brazzilian police force), they are very well armed with automatic rifles such as M-16, FN FAL , G3 etc.

Could one reason be that they need a light machinegun for better suppressing fire (longer ranged and harder hitting than a M-16, better able to provide sustained fire than a FN FAL) and only had this old war-horse readily available until a modern type had been chosen ?

I think Heckler and Koch has a modern light 7.62 mm machine-gun which match the Madsen regarding weight and ease of use

[gaijinsamurai]

How about the 1911 Colt or the M2 Browning?

It's a great credit to John Moses Browning that his designs are still in use today.

[cmhm20]

FN FAL and G3 are less useful for full auto supressive fire than an LMG, properly designed for the purpose. I can imagine that the Brazilian cops don't have LMG's in inventory as they are considered a police force, not an army. Could it be that they are using a confiscated weapon on an...ahem...semi legal p-) ad hoc basis? The photo and the rusty mag suggests that it does not come out of the safe of the unit armorer.

[wicked_hind]

It's a great credit to John Moses Browning that his designs are still in use today.

John Browning is up there smiling, that's for sure.

[Kragh]

FN FAL and G3 are less useful for full auto supressive fire than an LMG, properly designed for the purpose. I can imagine that the Brazilian cops don't have LMG's in inventory as they are considered a police force, not an army. Could it be that they are using a confiscated weapon on an...ahem...semi legal p-) ad hoc basis? The photo and the rusty mag suggests that it does not come out of the safe of the unit armorer.

Guess you're right,and WIKIPEDIA says (For what it is worth):

"Continued use in Brazil
The Madsen continues to be used by the Military Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Police_%28Brazil%29) of Rio de Janeiro State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_de_Janeiro_%28state%29), Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil), in 7.62 calibre.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madsen_machine_gun#_note-2) Although some of the Brazilian guns were captured from drug traffickers and pressed into service (mostly old weapons originating from the Argentinian Army as well as some stolen from museums[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madsen_machine_gun#_note-3)), the majority of Madsens used by the Brazilian police were donated by the Brazilian Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Army). Those guns were .30 cal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-06_Springfield) weapons converted to fit 7.62 mm NATO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO). Official sources state that the Brazilian army retired the Madsen machine gun in 1996. The Brazilian police guns are, as of 2008, being substituted by more modern guns with faster rates of fire."

I have never heard of any other police force who uses machine-guns, wonder if this increase in firepower has been triggered by increased violence and more automatic weapons in the hands of the gangs of Rio de Janeiro ?

Still: the Madsen Light machine gun has been used officially from 1903 to at least 2007 in almost unaltered from, quite an achievement :)

[onefast93z28]

How's this for police using a MG?

http://www.rcsd.net/media/mar08/03-05-peacemaker.html

[cmhm20]

How's this for police using a MG?

http://www.rcsd.net/media/mar08/03-05-peacemaker.html

er... "crowd control"? p-)

[Digitalx]

looks like old british bren gun haha

[Kragh]

Seems I found the answer to my question

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42/21075-madsen-retired.html

Quote:
" http://www.pafoa.org/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif The Madsen is Retired
Century Old LMGs Retire (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20080407.aspx)
April 7, 2008

The world's first light machine-gun, the Danish Madsen [view PHOTO here (http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/2008040716280.aspx)], has finally been retired from service after over a century of use. The State Police of the Brazilian state of Rio De Janerio were the last users of the twenty pound weapon. The police got them from the Brazilian army about ten years ago. Some criminal gangs still use the Madsen, and many private collectors have them. The Danish Army used the Madsen until the 1950s.
The Madsen required some precise machining, but it was not exceptionally costly to make. It was reliable, although it used an awkward top loaded magazine, carrying 25, 30 or 40 rounds. Over its long career, it was equipped to fire ammunition from 6.5mm to 8mm. The Brazilian Madsens fired NATO 7.62mm (.30 caliber) ammo. It's rate of fire was 450 rounds per minute.

The Madsen entered service in the 1890s. It was adopted by the Russian Army, and some were used in the 1905-6 Russo-Japanese War (the Russians lost, perhaps because they only bought 1,250 Madsens, and gave them to the cavalry.) The Madsen saw use by several nations during World War I, and was eventually used by over thirty nations. Most were retired by the 1970s, after several dozen variants were produced.

The original design dates to the 1880s, but this was before smokeless powder was widely available, and the Madsen quickly jammed when used with black powder ammo. But in the 1890s, the design was tried with 6.5mm smokeless powder rounds, and worked very well. The basic design was by Danish Army officer, Theodor Schouboe, who built the first working model in 1890 (and got the patent for it in 1901). But it took the efforts of a Danish artillery officer, Vilhelm Herman Oluf Madsen, and a weapons technician at the Danish Arsenal named Rasmussen, to perfect Schouboe's design. By 1896, the Madsen "recoil rifle" was available for sale. It wasn't until World War I that the value of a light machine-gun was discovered, and it wasn't until after World War I that light machine-guns became widely used. Many other designs were easier to use, or were preferred to some foreign weapon. But the Madsen was always good enough, until this year, to find users. Then again, production of the Madsen ceased about half a century ago."

[jackehammond]

Folks,

The big surprise about the ancient Danish Madsen light machine gun is that uses a mechanism to load and eject similar to those rifles that the British regiments were equipped with they fought the Zulus in the late 1800s!!!

Finally, does anyone have any info on the South American nations that had the Madsen light machine gun? Especially if El Salvador did? Greatly appreciated any info.

Jack E. Hammond

.

[LineDoggie]

SOF's Peter Kokalis did an article on Salvo Madsens back in the 80's-90's timeframe. But you necro'd a year old thread for that?