Q. on calibers

[jeffery7466]

I am new to all this so I dont know if this is a stupid question to ask...

I saw on some random website on cartridges, I clicked on .50 BMG (because i love it) on a fact table, it says the bullets (projectile) itself's diameter is .511 inch, and i thought the cartridge's name - .50 is the diameter of the projectile itself, can anybody explain this?

more examples:
.30-06 = .308
.404 Jeffery(LOL) = .422
.338 Winchester Magnum = .339

[HOLLiS]

Some times it is a close issue. It can designate bullet diameter (.308), or cartridge name (30-06).

30-06, was for 30 caliber rifle invented in 1906 (my understanding). The bullet is still .308 in both cases.

30-30, 30 (.308) caliber and 30 grains of black powder.

30 caliber could be a bullet whose diameter is .308 - .311, or so. For the same firearm a jacket bullet may not be the same diameter as a lead bullet.

Look at lands and grooves, Lands tend to dictate the caliber of the firearm. Bullets are sized to fit the grooves. so you have two different diameters for that specific rife.


There is no "standard" for naming cartridges. .357 Sig, uses a .356 bullet, same as a 9mm. 38 special and 357 Mag uses a .357 bullet (jacketed bullets) Sig made the cartridge to perform similar to the .357 Mag, thus the name .357 Sig, rather than 9mm Ultra Mag or 9mm Bass ass boy.

At one time pistols where name two caliber larger than their rifles equivalents, 38 Special VS .357 Mag.

The other countries have their methods.

[StukaJr]

Caliber is refered as a name for the entire cartridge - so the creator of the caliber can name if anything they want (I'm sure there are some guidelines set or we'd have "Federal l337 RoXorZ" by now). But that's why you can sometimes see odd names - like .30-06, .357 Magnum or "Aukley Improved" etc. Bullet diameter is... well, it's the diameter of the bullet.

For variety of cartridge calibers, there aren't too many bullets calibers - for instance, .311 diameter bullet can be loaded into a variety of older .30 calibers cartridges (like .303 Brit, 7.62x54R, 7.7x58mm Japanese).

Caliber is more descriptive than bullet diameter - .308 diameter bullet can be propelled at 30% + velocity out of some .30 cal Magnum cartridge than a .308 chambered cartridge. So think of bullet as a missile and cartridge as a complex delivery platform.

Looking at various cartridge schematics will explain the difference visually.

[James]

Europeans use the metric system too... candy asses... :roll:

[BillySing]

What everyone has said is pretty much on the money.........The thing you have to remember is the Nominal and Actual Cartridge Dimensions. Most companies tend to round off the number to make the name a bit more catchy. Aside from that, cartridge nonclemature is tricky and fraught with funny little names, like the example that you've used, the venerable .30-06 is a .30 calibre and it's got the date of acceptance tacked onto it, as Hollis has mentioned.


The .22-250 for instance started life as a wildcat version (wildcat is a term applied to common production cartridges that've been modified for some perceived benefit) of the then famed .250-3000 Savage, simply by necking down the cartridge to .22 rather than .25.

.250-3000 Savage gets it's name from the nominal bore diameter and the fact that it was one of the first cartridges to hit the magical 3000 Fps mark.

I'd think of more examples..........but I'm pretty lazy. p-)

[Mister_manji]

.30-'06 would be much easier to understand if people typed it correctly.

[jeffery7466]

So this is all about how the companies want to name them, correct?

[Ezekiel25:17]

.30-'06 would be much easier to understand if people typed it correctly.

you let an ' throw you off? you should tell that to most ammo manufacturer too

[Mister_manji]

you let an ' throw you off? you should tell that to most ammo manufacturer too
I didn't mean me, I meant others, who forget that it means .30 caliber, model of 1906, which evolved from the .30-'03. Most people don't even type it that way anymore.

[Tony Williams]

You'll find a list of common rifle and pistol calibres and their actual dimensions on my site in this article: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Cartridges.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[James]

So this is all about how the companies want to name them, correct?

Individuals too - 7x30 Waters for example - .30-30 necked down to 7mm for high power hunting pistols.

As others have stated, there isn't a definite industry standard. The .45-70, IIRC, had a .45 bullet and 70 grains of black powder. Modern .45-70 still carries that name, but now they use smokeless powder, and I seriously doubt it's 70 grains!

Check out the link from Tony Williams - it provides quite a bit of detail.

[Jippo]

Europeans use the metric system too... candy asses... :roll:

Yeah, the bastards make the matter so f''king complicated by naming their cartridges in a single method: diameter of the barrel/bullet x legth of the empty casing. Them a-holes should stick to the good old imperial dimensions. I mean 9x19, 5.56x45, 7.62x39 could be just as well hebrew. Bollocks I say!



Oh... then this one: ;)

[esquiar]

Yeah, the bastards make the matter so f''king complicated by naming their cartridges in a single method: diameter of the barrel/bullet x legth of the empty casing. Them a-holes should stick to the good old imperial dimensions. I mean 9x19, 5.56x45, 7.62x39 could be just as well hebrew. Bollocks I say!


What you talkin' Willis? Thats a great idea cause how else would you tell the difference between 7.62 X 39, 7.62 X 51, and 7.62 X 54?

[HOLLiS]

Yeah, the bastards make the matter so f''king complicated by naming their cartridges in a single method: diameter of the barrel/bullet x legth of the empty casing. Them a-holes should stick to the good old imperial dimensions. I mean 9x19, 5.56x45, 7.62x39 could be just as well hebrew. Bollocks I say!



Oh... then this one: ;)


LOL There are inconsistancy there too. 8 mm Mauser, late 1800 then the new "S" designated 8 MM Mauser

Look at the 1888 Commission or Turkish Mauser. The original 8 MM was a small diameter bullet. The look at 8mm Hungarian.

7.62 is not same diameter in 7.62 Nato of 7.62 x 39.

[Jippo]

LOL There are inconsistancy there too. 8 mm Mauser, late 1800 then the new "S" designated 8 MM Mauser

Look at the 1888 Commission or Turkish Mauser. The original 8 MM was a small diameter bullet. The look at 8mm Hungarian.

7.62 is not same diameter in 7.62 Nato of 7.62 x 39.

Well, yeah. It is a bogmire. :)

[James]

Thats a great idea cause how else would you tell the difference between 7.62 X 39, 7.62 X 51, and 7.62 X 54?

I've heard all of them re-named - 762AK, .308 and 762PK. Perhaps they aren't the most accurate names, but they work. p-)

[jeffery7466]

So lets say i am in the army, would i have to learn all the bloody cartridge names?

[HOLLiS]

So lets say i am in the army, would i have to learn all the bloody cartridge names?


Nope, actually, some supply Sgt, will give you what you need. 5.56 ball or 7.62 ball. Play on old names and new names.

A funny story, the US Army one time wanted everything in .45 caliber. When Schofield designed his S&W new model No. 3 for the Army in .45 Caliber it could not chamber the .45 Colt that the regular Army pistol was using. It was slightly shorter .45 S&W. The Soldier knew there was a short .45 and a Long .45, would ask for 45 Long Colt for their SSA pistols. The name still persist today even though technically wrong.

Unless a person is a rabid gun nut or a reloader, they won't bother to learn all the nuances.

[California Joe]

Nope, just the ones you'll be using or having shot at you. :) Or just so you can sound cool throwing out names like .257 Roberts, .44 Henry, .221 Fireball....

Here's a decent explanation...

http://www.newtoguns.com/book/export/html/10

[flanker7]

So lets say i am in the army, would i have to learn all the bloody cartridge names?

Nope. A soldier knows 4-5 calibers. His rifle ammo, his mg ammo, maybe a heavy mg and a GMG, and pistol ammo. Not much. p-)

[jeffery7466]

This is a bit off the subject, does every soldier need to know how to use the enermy's weapon, if not every, who need to?

[HOLLiS]

This is a bit off the subject, does every soldier need to know how to use the enermy's weapon, if not every, who need to?


No (regular type soldiers) and the more the enemy does not know how to use their weapons, the more fun a soldier will have.

[benbach]

Europeans use the metric system too... candy asses... :roll:

metric system owns

[GazB]

The main issue in naming cartridges is to make your name unique. The fact that the 7.62 x 39mm and the 7.62 x 54mm Russian rifle cartridges appear to have the same calibre can make for problems because when you need 30 cal ammo both seem to be 30 calibre. In actual fact both are .311 calibre, which in actual fact so is the British .303 ammo. Sometimes the round is named after the calibre of the projectile, sometimes it is named after the internal diameter of the barrel from the top of the groove to the top of the groove or from the base of the land to the base of the land. The 8mm Mauser round is actually 7.92mm because the Germans count from land to land and the west from groove to groove.

It doesn't just stop at ammo... the Browning High Power pistol uses a standard 9mm Parabellum round (ie 9 x 19mm). It was called high power because it was rather more powerful than the 6.35mm and 7.62mm pistol rounds they replaced.


Europeans use the metric system too... candy asses...

I would say the metric system makes the most sense... I mean what use is there in calling a rifle round .30-06... is it really useful to know when the round entered service... was it 1906, 1806, 2006?
The 7.62 x 54mmR and the 7.62 x 25mm served the Soviets well in WWII as a machinegun cartridge and rifle cartridge, and a pistol and submachinegun cartridge respectively. Later they added the 9 x 18mm pistol round for pistols and only very recently for SMGs, and of course the 7.62 x 39mm and 5.45 x 39mm rounds for assalt rifles. Giving the calibre and case length means you can immediately deduce what sort of round it probably is... a 14.5 x 114mm or 12.7 x 108mm round are hardly likely to be a pistol rounds for example.

Of course if you are desperate to stick to imperial measures you could just as easily include calibre and case length...

[HOLLiS]

And there are signature names.

357 Sig
45 AGP
450 Marlin

for firearm manufactures. Nothing new when you look at 22 WRF or 30 WCF

Problem is consistency, Metric is just as bad a 30-06, because a 30-06 if you know what it is, you know what it is for.

Biggest problems are rounds that have been around for a long time and has gotten meaner with age.

45-70 government (Group I)
45-70 Group II
45-70 Group III (will disassemble a 45-70 trap door if fired in it) 450 gr bullet is 500 FPS slower than a 458 Winchester Mag.


Outside specs are the same, Inside a completely different issue. Reason why Marlin came out with the 450 Marlin.

[Tony Williams]

The 8mm Mauser round is actually 7.92mm because the Germans count from land to land and the west from groove to groove.
Not so: the diameter of the 7.62x51 NATO bullet is actually 7.82mm, and the 5.56x45 NATO is 5.69mm. Military designations generally use bore diameter (between lands) rather than groove/bullet diameter, with the notable exception of most of the 9mm pistol rounds.

Commercial firms use whatever measurements they want.


Of course if you are desperate to stick to imperial measures you could just as easily include calibre and case length...

An old British tradition dating back to the 19th century, giving rise to cartridge designations such as the ".500/465 Nitro Express 3¼ inch", which tells you the calibre (.465"), the case it was derived from (.500"), the case length (3¼"), the fact that it is loaded with nitro rather than black powder, and that it uses an "Express" loading (lighter bullet at a higher velocity).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

[Jippo]

It doesn't just stop at ammo... the Browning High Power pistol uses a standard 9mm Parabellum round (ie 9 x 19mm). It was called high power because it was rather more powerful than the 6.35mm and 7.62mm pistol rounds they replaced.


I think HP refers to unprecented magazine capacity due to the double stack magazine. 9mm Para had been around for couple of decades before HP came to existance(1908-1935).

[GazB]

I think HP refers to unprecented magazine capacity due to the double stack magazine. 9mm Para had been around for couple of decades before HP came to existance(1908-1935).

No it was called High Power because the 9 x 19mm round it fired was significantly more powerful than the 6.35mm and 7.62mm pocket pistols it replaced in European service. If it was named because it carried 13 rounds instead of the more normal 8 rounds of other automatics of the period it would have been called high capacity, not high power. :)

[Jippo]

Well, you can most certainly have it your way, but Luger had been chambered for 9x19 ages before. It was adopted 1908 and served widely in WWI. FN GP-35 on the other hand was the first service pistol with double stack magazine.

Ps. Fuond this in wiki:
"The Hi-Power was designed in response to a French military requirement for a new service pistol, the Grand Rendement (French for "High Yield"), or alternatively Grande Puissance (literally "high power"). The French military's requirements were that the arm should be compact, have a capacity of at least 10 rounds, a magazine disconnect device, an external hammer, a positive safety, be robust and simple to disassemble and re-assemble, and be capable of killing a man at 50 metres; this last criterion was seen to demand a calibre of 9 mm or larger, a bullet mass of around 8 grammes, and a muzzle velocity of 350 m/s. It was to accomplish all of this at a weight not exceeding 1 kg (2.2 lb)."

[GazB]

Yeah, I looked at wiki and I think it is wrong.
The Browning HP was a name given to it by Browning to distinguish it from other pocket Browning models also sold in Europe.
The 45 Browning pistol was probably the most powerful Browning handgun design but it didn't sell well in Europe. Compared to the 45, the 9mm is not high power, but if the only other pistols you have sold in Europe are .32 auto, or .380 ACP or .25 ACP, then a 9 x 19mm round is a high power round.

Even looking at the pistol the French chose instead of the Browning, the Modele 1935, it had a 7.62 x 22mm cartridge that had a low velocity for its calibre, 304m/s is rather slow, so unless it had an exceptionally heavy projectile then it was probably less powerful than the 9 x 19mm too.
(note the 7.62 x 25mm round as used in the TT-33 Tokarev has a light bullet of about 108 grain but a high velocity of about 420m/s making it comparable to the 9mm.)

[Jippo]

European countries had been using 7.63 Mauser (of which Tokarev is a copy loaded slightly hotter) since 19th century, 1907 Husqvarna M07 was loaded to 9x20 long browning, Parabellum was taken in to service 1908 and many of the old venerable Mauser C96's were chambered in 9x19 already in the turn of the century.

Hi-power is not a pocket pistol, but full sized service pistol same size as Glock 17, CZ-75 or 1911. On top of that, 9x19 was very common and by all means not the most powerful pistol round in 1935. Hi-power was a marketing gimmick due to the magazine.

[GazB]

European countries had been using 7.63 Mauser (of which Tokarev is a copy loaded slightly hotter) since 19th century, 1907 Husqvarna M07 was loaded to 9x20 long browning, Parabellum was taken in to service 1908 and many of the old venerable Mauser C96's were chambered in 9x19 already in the turn of the century.

The Mauser broomhandle pistols were so popular that is why the calibre was chosen in the Soviet Union. They tend to like to make loads hotter when they adopt them... they also did the same recently when they adopted a very hot 9 x 19mm round.


Hi-power is not a pocket pistol, but full sized service pistol same size as Glock 17, CZ-75 or 1911.

Yes, I know, but most of the pistols in Europe were "pocket pistols". Most of the Browning pistols sold in Europe were pocket pistols. Compared to the pistols already in Belgian service the 9mm High Power was a high powered pistol. Americans will not agree because their 45 brownings were more high power, and the Brits with their .455 calibre Webley revolvers were also manstoppers in comparison but Browning didn't sell 45s or 455s to Europe.
Compared to the Baby Baretta that James Bond was issued with the 9mm Browning was high power. (or compared with the PPK he replaced it with it was still HP).

If it was a marketing gimmick then it would be the high capacity or high firepower, not the high power.

[Eztyga]

It really depends on wether or not the measurement in taken across the lands or the grooves. US tends to measure from groove to groove, Europeans traditionally measure from land to land.

Ezy

[Jippo]

If it was a marketing gimmick then it would be the high capacity or high firepower, not the high power.

I wonder if in seventy years time similar discussion is had on the meaning of "wonder nines". :)

[Tony Williams]

It really depends on wether or not the measurement in taken across the lands or the grooves. US tends to measure from groove to groove, Europeans traditionally measure from land to land.


See my post #26:

"Military designations generally use bore diameter (between lands) rather than groove/bullet diameter, with the notable exception of most of the 9mm pistol rounds.

Commercial firms use whatever measurements they want."

[Jippo]

manstoppers in comparison but Browning didn't sell 45s or 455s to Europe.

Btw. You are incorrect, 1911 was relatively popular by the 20's. In fact the metioned Husqvarna is a development based on the Browning model 1903. You are basing your assumptions on the situation of France and Spain, which in no way means Europe. Really sweeping generalisations, if I may add.

[GazB]

Btw. You are incorrect, 1911 was relatively popular by the 20's.

I am referring to countries adopting the weapons, not private sales. For most European countries a pistol was an officers weapon, more ornamental than actually being a weapon of war. It was certainly popular in the US and those countries the US was a great influence on, but how many countries in Europe were influenced by the US?

[Jippo]

M/1911 was in service use at least in USSR(1918), Britain(1919), and Norway(1915). I have certainly seen it in use by many other countries as well, and also those that had very little U.S. influence. But that isn't the point now is it.
We were talking about 9x19 in European service, which was by 1935 already the service round of many European countries. In fact it had been that for nearly 30 years. And many more nations were using more powerful cartridge instead the 9x19. (Britain & Russia being the most notable).

[boreal]

In the case of Spain, the war in Morocco made that we had to get a powerful cartridge in the handguns, the chosen one was the 9x23, we started with some bergman bayard pistols.



The cartridge was ok, the handgun had some troubles in Rif mountains, so we needed another one, the Campo Giro, in 9x23 mm




After that came the maginificent Astra 400, after that the Star Super A, and then we adopted the 9x19....because we wanted to be NATO compatible.

who wants a .45 when you can get a nice 9 mm Largo? :)

[GazB]

We were talking about 9x19 in European service, which was by 1935 already the service round of many European countries. In fact it had been that for nearly 30 years. And many more nations were using more powerful cartridge instead the 9x19. (Britain & Russia being the most notable).

The name High Power was not created by the customer, but by the Browning company that made the pistol. Their previous major sales to governments and to private citizens in Europe were small calibre pistols. The Browning HP was in comparison a high power weapon. By 1935 there were 32 round snail magazines for the Luger pistol and the Broomhandle Mauser pistol had 8 round, 10 round and 20 round models for sale already so claiming high power referred to magazine capacity does not hold either... there are exceptions to every rule.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. :)

[Jippo]

I guess so! Good discussion! :)

[HOLLiS]

Some thoughts, Smokeless powder were coming into their own by the end of the 1800's. High power back then held a slightly different meaning than to day. High power today is a 500 S&W, or some nasty rifle Magnum.

Black powder rounds where "low power" velocities where sub sonic to slightly more than sonic. The newer propellents, better metals allowed for higher pressure and faster velocities. When we, today, may look at 9mm being "45 ACP set on stun" (Quote from TS on PS.COM) in it's day it was "high power". As it has been mention 44 webley, 44 Russian, and other rounds where just not as "hot".

[GazB]

They had a term then for what we now call magnums, it was express... as in .600 nitro express round.
Not sure about the webley rounds, but the 45 colt was a subsonic round whereas the 9 x 19mm was supersonic, but as I have mentioned it is my understanding that the Browning High Power was so named because compared to previous small calibre browning pistols that had been sold to European armies up until that time it was high powered.


When we, today, may look at 9mm being "45 ACP set on stun" (Quote from TS on PS.COM) in it's day it was "high power".

I would not want to be shot by any calibre... but it is the old story... it is not what calibre you are using, but where you put your bullets that matters.

[Indiana Jones]

[...] When we, today, may look at 9mm being "45 ACP set on stun" (Quote from TS on PS.COM) in it's day it was "high power". As it has been mention 44 webley, 44 Russian, and other rounds where just not as "hot".
Interesting.
I would be glad if nobody would interpret this as an attempt to start a pissing contest because it is not, but I think this is purely an American perception that has a lot more to do with tradition than actual performance or the lack thereof.

I would not want to be shot by any calibre... but it is the old story... it is not what calibre you are using, but where you put your bullets that matters
Precisely.