Helsinki "peacefull bombing" 1944.

[Alexandr]

I got a question espeshially for Finn members - intersting your point about "peacefull bombings" of Helsinki in 1944.
I readed Russian and English articles about it,but anyway situation looks strange,will be grateful if you add your opinion.
Summary as it presented in what i wrote -

In 1944,when blockade of Leningrad was broken,Soviet Airforses managed act of frightening on Finland to drow them from war.As it was reported by Soviet Airforse commanders,on Helsinki was dropped 2600 tonns of bombs,including 500kgs bombs.Than,after 2 weeks,Soviet delagation arrive at sity,they seen that only several buildings are damaged.Finlad observers told that Soviet planes dropeed almost all bombs in sea waters south from Helsinki.
Your version of event?

[Jippo]

Here's a wiki article in Finnish:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingin_suurpommitukset

From Finnish military magazine:
http://www.suomensotilas.fi/nettisotilas/NS_Pommari2.html

Locations of airdefences:
http://www.elisanet.fi/~d628809/sa-int/hkiframe.html

Short reference:
Stalin wanted to get Finland out of the war, and one method he chose was to level Helsinki for which he got acceptance in Teheran 1943.

As a result 2000 bombing flights with 2600 tonnes of bombs were directed against Helsinki on three nights of February 1944. Only 5% of bombs actually hit the city area, and of that number some hit parks etc. Mostly civilian targets got hit, but also of one garrison and USSR embassy in the city were hit. 109 buildings were completely lost. Among the 146 dead were 6 soldiers. 345 people were wounded. Small number of dead can be attributed to efficient defence along with excellent civil protection system.

City was covered with efficiently arranged and led AA-artillery which had radar guidance. AAA shot nearly 50 000 rounds during the attacks. Also nightfighters were utilised. Soviet losses were 25 planes for the three nights, from which 6 were lost to fighters.

Compared to Dresden bombings western allied used 1320 bomber flights which dropped 3900 tonnes of bombs, which totally anhillated the city killing tens of thousands of people.

[Alexandr]

Well,interseting,more damaged than i wrote,but 5 % still strange number.You cant blame pilots for incompetence or too much vodka in that case.Pilots can miss one sity with another,but they cant miss sity with sea water.

[Basillicus]

I guess one factor is also that the strategic bomber forces of the USSR weren't as well trained and equipped and experienced as their western colleques. Night bombing raids and aviation in general weren't too simple back those days, and Finnish air defences were well led.

[Jippo]

Well,interseting,more damaged than i wrote,but 5 % still strange number.You cant blame pilots for incompetence or too much vodka in that case.Pilots can miss one sity with another,but they cant miss sity with sea water.

I don't think 109 buildings destroyed is much, compared to number of bombs dropped (ca. 16500 pcs). If I remember correctly most of the misses came from bombs dropped short over the sea. This was caused (again IIRC) basically by two reasons: heavy AA fire caused the crews to drop them too early to get out (was also a problem with the Bomber Command), and some crews were fooled by the fake conflagrations on the islands in front of the city made by the Finnish defenders.

[Hecatonchiros]

Here's another good site about the Feb. 1944 bombings:

http://users.tkk.fi/~andres/m44/m44hki.htm (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44hki.htm)

The three February 1944 raids in general

The relatively small amount of damage caused to Helsinki by the three terror raids (Uusitalo 1988 (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#uusitalo88)) was due to effective anti-aircraft artillery. In February 1944 about 80 flak guns defended Helsinki, most of them over 75 mm in calibre. During the Winter War the number had been around 20. (Uusitalo 1988 (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#uusitalo88)) Another important factor was deception – about 15 kms east of Helsinki (at Vuosaari) the coastline resembles that of downtown Helsinki. After a plan by Col. Jokipaltio, several flak guns and searchlights were placed there, and large fires were lit to imitate fires in the town. Many aircraft approaching from east dropped their bombloads there. (Seppälä 1979a (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#ankarin), Uusitalo 1988 (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#uusitalo88)).
95% of bombs fell outside the target area; 10% of attacking aircraft flew on Helsinki; 5% of attacking aircraft dropped their bombs at Helsinki (Seppälä 1979a (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#ankarin)).
In all three raids only 799 bombs of the total of 10,980 dropped hit built-up areas (Geust 1994 (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#geust94)), that would make a mere 7.3%. 2,120 sorties were flown in the three raids (Geust 1994 (http://users.tkk.fi/%7Eandres/m44/m44sourc.htm#geust94)).

[wasser]

Well,interseting,more damaged than i wrote,but 5 % still strange number.You cant blame pilots for incompetence or too much vodka in that case.Pilots can miss one sity with another,but they cant miss sity with sea water.

In the dark of night it's easy to see how they could make a mistake, especially when they were deceived. Comparing these raids to the Dresden bombings is a bit unfair and a bit misleading. Doing so makes it seem as if Helsinki could have withstood an attack comparable to the raid on Dresden. The Soviets didn't have comparable equipment, tactics, or experience.

The reasons for the failing of these raids is more than the successes of the Finnish and German forces, the Soviets were also factors.

[pacifist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Helsinki_in_World_War_II

Quote:

The Finns managed to lure the pathfinders by lighting fires on the islands outside the city, and only using the searchlights east of the city, thereby leading the pathfinders to believe that it was the city. Only 530 bombs fell within the city itself.


I've heard that most of the bombs were dropped on log piles there.

[Alexandr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Helsinki_in_World_War_II

Quote:

The Finns managed to lure the pathfinders by lighting fires on the islands outside the city, and only using the searchlights east of the city, thereby leading the pathfinders to believe that it was the city. Only 530 bombs fell within the city itself.


I've heard that most of the bombs were dropped on log piles there.

Oh i forgot look at Wiki,thanks :) Thats explain situation.If it was so - great work by Finnland air defense.
But i think somehow what we didnt whant to complitely destroy Helsinki anyway.Stalin remember well that Mannerheim refuse to send troops on Leningrad siege.

[Jippo]

The reasons for the failing of these raids is more than the successes of the Finnish and German forces, the Soviets were also factors.

I think they are only comparing Dresden with Helsinki to show how big the actual numbers were (and what was the potential for damage), not to say that these cases are similar.

[wasser]

I think they are only comparing Dresden with Helsinki to show how big the actual numbers were (and what was the potential for damage), not to say that these cases are similar.

When comparing situations there must invariably be similarities otherwise the comparison makes no sense. In this case I think it makes less sense and is deceptive. Even if the differences in the forces involved is disregarded, IIRC, Dresden was a larger city with a greater population. As such, the potential for damage and casualties in Dresden far exceeds that of Helsinki.

Personally, I think the comparisons are made more simply for the greater familiarity of the destruction of Dresden.

[orange]

Oh i forgot look at Wiki,thanks :) Thats explain situation.If it was so - great work by Finnland air defense.
But i think somehow what we didnt whant to complitely destroy Helsinki anyway.Stalin remember well that Mannerheim refuse to send troops on Leningrad siege.
Yeah, Stalin was a very forgiving person that always sought the best for the Finnish people and therefor ordered his bomber crews to drop their payloads over the ocean and outside of the city. How very insightful of you... :roll:

As has been previously stated, the reasons for the bombers to miss was both the facts that the Finns used a good strategy for the airdefences plus the fact that nightbombings wasn't a cakewalk back then. Not to misscredit the Soviets but they didn't have anywere near the experince of nightbombings compared to the Brits. And the Brits owned the nightsky. And even they missed their targets from time to time.

Easy as that...

[Dercius]

Your version of event?

Patriotic action by Russian Strategic Bomber Crew. They wanted to preserve for mankind and future generations those good Finnish Vodka brands. So we have to respect their sacrifice and enjoy the legacy they preserved for usrofl

Very interesting story by the way. Another proof that sometimes deception is more important than the force you can mass for attack or defend.

[domokun]

This subject has been discussed to detail on axis history forum:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=112732

[Alexandr]

Yeah, Stalin was a very forgiving person that always sought the best for the Finnish people and therefor ordered his bomber crews to drop their payloads over the ocean and outside of the city. How very insightful of you... :roll:




Lol i dindt mean it.In that case Soviets just can send 10 bombers.As i said,now, knowing about false lights on islands - great air-defense work.Thats not a matter of some epic Pure-Love-Forgivnes anyway,just realistic point from both leaders during war.Imagn if Mannerheim will decide to join Germans in siege....

[GazB]

Sounds like the best result possible all round. The Finns kept their honour by having to be "bombed" into submission, and the Soviets got to practice bombing cities... something they would need to be able to do later on, with as little loss of life as seems possible. If you want to compare the bombing of dresden with this then go ahead... the bombing of Helsinki led to Finland changing sides basically... I am sure Germany might have wanted to change sides after Dresden was bombed but they certainly didn't. As the Blitz showed aerial bombing of cities was very imprecise... in fact practically random without guided bombs and rarely ever created the dispair it was supposed to amongst the targets.

[Jippo]

the bombing of Helsinki led to Finland changing sides basically...

No, it had neglible influence. There were negotiation during the winter, but Soviet conditions for peace were unacceptable, and negotiations stopped in March.

[IronFinn]

No, it had neglible influence. There were negotiation during the winter, but Soviet conditions for peace were unacceptable, and negotiations stopped in March.

Also, Finland never "changed sides". We signed truce agreenment with SU and according to that we had to drive German troops out of the country. There were never cooperation with finnish and allied forces regarding Germany.

[Teme]

I remember reading years ago from some book about Finnish radio intelligence that Finns caught a Soviet spy in Helsinki and made him to send a message saying City of Helsinki is completely destroyed. With this information and planes seeing big fires the conclusion was that the city was destroyed and ADD was assigned to other tasks.