Hiroshima/Nagasaki

[Toddy]

Venerated scholers of the militaryphotos.net forum what say you to the following suggestion:

Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been described by many as the result of action taken to enforce the quick resolution of the Empire of Japans involvment in WWII. Do you take this as the reason or do you think that this was a delayed reaction of revenge for the intial bombing of Pearl Harbour?

Cheers
Todd

[orange]

Enforce a quick resolution. No doubt about it. If they hadn't dropped atleast the one over Hiroshima they would have had to invade mainland Japan. And that would've cost ALOT of allied lives.

There's no way in hell that the Japanese would've surrendered without the dropping of the bombs or after a very long and costly invasion of the mainland.

[Laconian]

The former. We had been bombing the Japanese mainland, including a couple of strict fire-bombings of cities. The A-bombs were dropped in an attempt to bring the Japanese to the bargaining table before the invasion of Japan.

[clean]

I take this as a way for you, Toddy, to stir up some sh*t. Piss off, take the fence post out of your ass and present an opinion. Otherwise you're wasting everyones time.

[Hollis]

Might try Search, this has been discussed several times before.

[Indiana Jones]

Venerated scholers of the militaryphotos.net forum what say you to the following suggestion:

Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been described by many as the result of action taken to enforce the quick resolution of the Empire of Japans involvment in WWII. Do you take this as the reason or do you think that this was a delayed reaction of revenge for the intial bombing of Pearl Harbour?

Cheers
Todd
Todd, first off, never mind Clean, he is lacking in manners.
Secondly, this is the wrong place to discuss such an issue, as to be quite blunt, this board is overwhelmingly populated with clueless but opinionated laymen whose emotional involvement, and sometimes patriotic fervour, makes it nigh impossible to approach the subject matter sine ira et studio. Now I realize that this may sound both condescending and impolite, but that is just the way it is.

On the subject:
Simplistically said, scholarly consensus nowadays favours the thesis that "saving lives" was, at best, a marginal motive for dropping the bombs, and that the Empire of Japan would likely have surrendered - on the Allied terms- within a short timeframe anyway, and that an invasion of mainland Japan would not have been necessary in order to ensure said capitulation. It has also been argued, for example by Hasegawa, that the actual dropping of the bomb was not crucial to the Japanese surrender.
(For a discussion of aforementioned publication involving some of the most accomplished protagonists from across the spectrum, see here:
http://www.h-net.org/~diplo/roundtables/PDF/Maddux-HasegawaRoundtable.pdf )
I tend to largely share that opinion. That is not to say however that the opposite argument is without merit; Richard Frank for example has made a fairly convincing case for it in "Operation Downfall".
http://www.amazon.com/Downfall-End-Imperial-Japanese-Empire/dp/067941424X

For gaining an initial, synthetic overview of the subject, I would recommend you to take a look at Walker:
http://www.amazon.com/Prompt-Utter-Destruction-Truman-Against/dp/080785607X/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1
Also consider Alperovitz, who can be considered the Doyen of the controversy.
http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Use-Atomic-Bomb/dp/067976285X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206575319&sr=1-2
See here for a website with more pertaining information on the subject:
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm
In order to properly contextualise the debate and gain a broader perspective on racist motives and their influence on the general conduct of warfare in the Pacific, I would also recommend the following:
http://www.amazon.com/War-Without-Mercy-Power-Pacific/dp/0394751728

Regards,

[clean]

Todd, first off, never mind Clean, he is lacking in manners.
Secondly, this is the wrong place to discuss such an issue, as to be quite blunt, this board is overwhelmingly populated with clueless but opinionated laymen whose emotional involvement, and sometimes patriotic fervour, makes it nigh impossible to approach the subject matter sine ira et studio.

The mpnet is a 1914 powder keg. You open up something like this, it will end up in a flame war.

It's not a matter of manners, it's a matter of situational awareness.

[Toddy]

I was not intending to stir up **** as you suggest Clean, I am a Scot who now resides in Australia, I was merely curious as to the opinions of those whom I think would give an unbiased opinion of events. I personally have no clue on the subject and was merely trying to educate myself as to the motive, rather than Wiki, which is not always an unbiased reference tool.

Thanks to everyone who gave the opinion that it was a decision made to save more lives in the long run and to bring a swift resolution to the conflict, as this was my initial thought

Thanks Indiana for the links I will be sure to look at them.

Mods you can lock this now if you want, certainly do not want to poke a stick in the hornets nest and that seems to be the way this is going.

[Indiana Jones]

The mpnet is a 1914 powder keg. You open up something like this, it will end up in a flame war.

It's not a matter of manners, it's a matter of situational awareness.
Sir, I think that the very tone of your post rather than the subject itself was more contributive to bring about said "flamewar", but that is just me.
Whether such a discussion ends in a childish exchange of insults or not is up to us.
Cheers, and good night.

[deagle]

a little bit of both. and even 50/50. thats the best answer you'll get w/o getting flame, lol

[clean]

Sir, I think that the very tone of your post rather than the subject itself was more contributive to bring about said "flamewar", but that is just me.

Been too far and seen too much for you to call me "sir."

The war was won with the weapons we had. 2.1 million Japanese troops had already been killed, 580k civilians. The US had already lost 460k some odd troops in the war. Worlds were ravaged, lives ruined. A decision was made. And no one, Not Truman, not the architects of the war, not the developers of the bomb and not the pilot of the Enola Gay ever... for a second, took upon what they did, what they had to do, lightly. To even for a second, believe it was in revenge of Pearl Harbor, is obsurd.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Dropping the bomb was a show of force against the Soviet Union. The Japanese were already trying to find ways to end the war and would have done so irrespective of dropping the bomb or before the invasion.

Believe it or not more people died in Tokyo in a single night due to firebombing then Hiroshima.

[chuckster]

Believe it or not more people died in Tokyo in a single night due to firebombing then Hiroshima.

And, believe it or not more Chinese were killed in the city of Nanking by Japanese than Japanese killed by Americans in Hiroshima. Google 'Rape of Nanking'. Furthermore, more Chinese were killed by Japanese in reprisals for helping the American aircrews after the Doolittle Raid than Japanese killed by Americans at Nagasaki. Shortening the was was a good thing.

[clean]

6 months of heavy fire bombing preceeded the bombing of Hiroshima. The Soviets declared war on Japan that day.

Sorry, they declared war on Japan on the 8th. 2 days after Hiroshima.

[Kilgor]

Dropping the bomb was a show of force against the Soviet Union. The Japanese were already trying to find ways to end the war and would have done so irrespective of dropping the bomb or before the invasion.

Believe it or not more people died in Tokyo in a single night due to firebombing then Hiroshima.

Some of the Japanese were seeking a peaceful end to the war, not "The" Japanese. And these on terms favourable to them, not the unconditional surrender demanded by the allies.

[Toddy]

Been too far and seen too much for you to call me "sir."

The war was won with the weapons we had. 2.1 million Japanese troops had already been killed, 580k civilians. The US had already lost 460k some odd troops in the war. Worlds were ravaged, lives ruined. A decision was made. And no one, Not Truman, not the architects of the war, not the developers of the bomb and not the pilot of the Enola Gay ever... for a second, took upon what they did, what they had to do, lightly. To even for a second, believe it was in revenge of Pearl Harbor, is obsurd.

Hardly obsurd mate when Truman actually mentions it in his speech after the bombs were dropped? Nagasaki was also the birthplace for the torps used in the Pearl Harbour attack, seems like a rather unlikely place for randomly dropping a bomb, why not hit the heart of Japan at Tokyo if it had absolutely nothing to do with PH?

[clean]

SPEECHES

Harry S. Truman's Announcement Of the Dropping Of An Atomic Bomb On Hiroshima, 1945
By Harry S. Truman
Mar 17, 2006, 12:31pm

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On August 6, 1945, President Harry Truman released the awesome power of the atomic bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. This action helped to end the Second World War, but at a terrible price.


Two minutes after Hiroshima explosion.
Hiroshima, 6/8/45
149442 UN/DPI/M. Matsushige
HARRY S. TRUMAN'S ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE DROPPING OF AN ATOMIC BOMB ON HIROSHIMA

Address to the Nation, August 6, 194

"Sixteen hours ago an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese Army base. That bomb had more power than 20,000 tons of TNT. It had more than 2,000 times the blast power of the British "Grand Slam," which is the largest bomb ever yet used in the history of warfare.

The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repaid manyfold. And the end is not yet. With this bomb we have now added a new and revolutionary increase in destruction to supplement the growing power of our armed forces. In their present form these bombs are now in production, and even more powerful forms are in development.

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.

Before 1939, it was the accepted belief of scientists that it was theoretically possible to release atomic energy. But no one knew any practical method of doing it. By 1942, however, we knew that the Germans were working feverishly to find a way to add atomic energy to the other engines of war with which they hoped to enslave the world. But they failed. We may be grateful to Providence that the Germans got the V-1's and V-2's late and in limited quantities and even more grateful that they did not get the atomic bomb at all.

The battle of the laboratories held fateful risks for us as well as the battles of the air, land, and sea, and we have now won the battle of the laboratories as we have won the other battles

Beginning in 1940, before Pearl Harbor, scientific knowledge useful in war was pooled between the United States and Great Britain, and many priceless helps to our victories have come from that arrangement. Under that general policy the research on the atomic bomb was begun. With American and British scientists working together we entered the race of discovery against the Germans

The United States had available the large number of scientists of distinction in the many needed areas of knowledge. It had the tremendous industrial and financial resources necessary for the project, and they could be devoted to it without undue impairment of other vital war work. In the United States the laboratory work and the production plants, on which a substantial start had already been made, would be out of reach of enemy bombing, while at that time Britain was exposed to constant air attack and was still threatened with the possibility of invasion. For these reasons Prime Minister Churchill and President Roosevelt agreed that it was wise to carry on the project here

We now have two great plants and many lesser works devoted to the production of atomic power. Employment during peak construction numbered 125,000 and over 65,000 individuals are even now engaged in operating the plants. Many have worked there for two and a half years. Few know what they have been producing. They see great quantities of material going in and they see nothing coming out of these plants, for the physical size of the explosive charge is exceedingly small. We have spent $2 billion on the greatest scientific gamble in history--and won

But the greatest marvel is not the size of the enterprise, its secrecy, nor its cost, but the achievement of scientific brains in putting together infinitely complex pieces of knowledge held by many men in different fields of science into a workable plan. And hardly less marvelous has been the capacity of industry to design, and of labor to operate, the machines and methods to do things never done before so that the brainchild of many minds came forth in physical shape and performed as it was supposed to do. Both science and industry worked under the direction of the United States Army, which achieved a unique success in managing so diverse a problem in the advancement of knowledge in an amazingly short time. It is doubtful if such another combination could be got together in the world. What has been done is the greatest achievement of organized science in history. It was done under high pressure and without failure

We are now prepared to obliterate more rapidly and completely every productive enterprise the Japanese have above ground in any city. We shall destroy their docks, their factories, and their communications. Let there be no mistake; we shall completely destroy Japan's power to make war

It was to spare the Japanese people from utter destruction that the ultimatum of July 26 was issued at Potsdam.* Their leaders promptly rejected that ultimatum. If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth. Behind this air attack will follow sea and land forces in such numbers and power as they have not yet seen and with the fighting skill of which they are already well aware.

The secretary of war, who has kept in personal touch with all phases of the project, will immediately make public a statement giving further details

His statement will give facts concerning the sites at Oak Ridge near Knoxville, Tennessee, and at Richland near Pasco, Washington, and an installation near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Although the workers at the sites have been making materials to be used in producing the greatest destructive force in history, they have not themselves been in danger beyond that of many other occupations, for the utmost care has been taken of their safety

The fact that we can release atomic energy ushers in a new era in man's understanding of nature's forces. Atomic energy may in the future supplement the power that now comes from coal, oil, and falling water, but at present it cannot be produced on a basis to compete with them commercially. Before that comes there must be a long period of intensive research

It has never been the habit of the scientists of this country or the policy of this government to withhold from the world scientific knowledge. Normally, therefore, everything about the work with atomic energy would be made public

But under present circumstances it is not intended to divulge the technical processes of production or all the military applications, pending further examination of possible methods of protecting us and the rest of the world from the danger of sudden destruction.

I shall recommend that the Congress of the United States consider promptly the establishment of an appropriate commission to control the production and use of atomic power within the United States. I shall give further consideration and make further recommendations to the Congress as to how atomic power can become a powerful and forceful influence towards the maintenance of world peace." Harry S. Truman

You mean that one "mate." Speeches are speeches. Wars are wars. Nukes on cities are events we hopefully never see again. Tragedy beyond anything any of us can imagine. Events above and beyond a simple revenge for a sneak attack. The bombings of those two cities in Japan had one and only one purpose. To end the war. Once and for all.

[Toddy]

Thanks for the speech mate.

Do you personally think that PH had nothing whatsoever to do with the bombings in Japan?

I agree that no-one made the decision lightly, and I think it affected those involved more deeply than anyone could possibly comprehend.

[Toddy]

p.s. "mate"??

Its a colloquialism here in Oz to call everyone by mate, don't take it personally, it's not a dig like "champ", "tiger" or "son" etc

[Hollis]

I guess as the WWII Vets disappear we will hear more and more revisionism of this event.

My Dad was USN 1937 - 1957, he was in the China fleet when war broke out. I spent a number of years living in the South Pacific at Naval Bases. I would listen to the vets talk about the war.

I remember how people said they were so relieved that the bombs ended the war. They were to be on the invasion fleet.

I would say, Look at the battle of Okinawa. Look at the attitude of the people living there. Look at what it cost in human lives for both sides for the Allies to secure that Island.

Most events have multiple reason and we can on and on about those reason. I am sure the primary purpose was to prevent a Invasion of the Islands of Japan.

A lot of GIs, who fought on the Islands, a lot of the civilians conquered under the Japanese Army, if it was up to them they would have had whole Island of Japan bombed.

I find shifting the hate/blame to the US and Allies is nothing more than rabid anti-USA bigotry.

The are probably several million Japanese who survived the war because of the bombs ending that war, not to mention the huge loss of Allies soldiers who would have died in the invasion.

This rant is still going on today, how barbaric the US and Allies are. Ever look at the cost of munitions the US and Allies use to minimize the lost of innocent civilians who live in the battle zone.

[Toddy]

I guess as the WWII Vets disappear we will hear more and more revisionism of this event.

My Dad was USN 1937 - 1957, he was in the China fleet when war broke out. I spent a number of years living in the South Pacific at Naval Bases. I would listen to the vets talk about the war.

I remember how people said they were so relieved that the bombs ended the war. They were to be on the invasion fleet.

I would say, Look at the battle of Okinawa. Look at the attitude of the people living there. Look at what it cost in human lives for both sides for the Allies to secure that Island.

Most events have multiple reason and we can on and on about those reason. I am sure the primary purpose was to prevent a Invasion of the Islands of Japan.

A lot of GIs, who fought on the Islands, a lot of the civilians conquered under the Japanese Army, if it was up to them they would have had whole Island of Japan bombed.

I find shifting the hate/blame to the US and Allies is nothing more than rabid anti-USA bigotry.

The are probably several million Japanese who survived the war because of the bombs ending that war, not to mention the huge loss of Allies soldiers who would have died in the invasion.

This rant is still going on today, how barbaric the US and Allies are. Ever look at the cost of munitions the US and Allies use to minimize the lost of innocent civilians who live in the battle zone.

I agree with the dropping of the bomb as a necessity to finding a solution to a very big problem.

Being British I am also extremely proud of my heritage and therefore would never embark upon anti western anything...just to clarify that for anyone who thinks my post was a dig at the USA. It wasa just a statement based on something I had read and I wanted to get an informative answer, which I feel I have now received. So thank you all for being so candid with your responses.

Cheers
Todd

[California Joe]

Look, it's like this.

This was not a nice war. Pearl Harbor, Bataan Death March, Corregidor, Iwo...savage fighting against a dedicated, sometimes fanatical enemy not interested in surrender.

Years of dehumanization of the enemy Japanese. Even Bugs Bunny "Nipped the Nips". There was no political correctness. No anti war movement blaming the US for imperial aspirations. Only straight up hate for the architects of Pearl Harbor.

Remember, we have to base the decision to drop the bombs on what was "perceived" at the time. Not from hindsight. I doubt many Americans shed tears when they heard about Hiroshima.

I think it was the original "Shock and Awe". Payback may have factored into it but I don't believe it was the major consideration. I think Truman was anxious to end it now. Decisively. To make a statement, but I think his military advisors were predicting unbelievable casualties in a mainland invasion. The country was tired of war. JMO.

[gaijinsamurai]

X2 what CJ wrote ^.

[clean]

Do you personally think that PH had nothing whatsoever to do with the bombings in Japan?



I believe, whole heartedly, that Pearl Harbor was but a distant memory when the order was given. Tarawa, Iwo, Wake, Ok

Sorry to disappear mid-sentence. Connection problem. It's been a few years since 1945. Might as well debate if going into Iraq in '03 was payback for an assassination attempt on George Senior.

[BearInBunnySuit]

I know for a fact that if the U.S. hadn't bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I might not be here today. And even if I was, I might not be writing this as a Korean...

[wasser]

The Doolittle Raid was revenge for Pearl. If there was any "tit-for-tat" with respect to Pearl, that was it.

And I can relate to HOLLiS - my grandfather had completed a tour in Europe and was to begin training for the invasion of Japan when the war thankfully ended. That kinda gives this whole issue a direct and personal touch.

[Toddy]

I believe, whole heartedly, that Pearl Harbor was but a distant memory when the order was given. Tarawa, Iwo, Wake, Ok

Sorry to disappear mid-sentence. Connection problem. It's been a few years since 1945. Might as well debate if going into Iraq in '03 was payback for an assassination attempt on George Senior.

Nah, that was about Oil :)

[clean]

D. M. Giangreco, editor for the US Army's professional journal, Military Review


GIANGRECO: Thank you. It's great to be here today.

The sudden and unanticipated conclusion of the Pacific War with the dropping of atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was greeted with joy by all Americans, and especially by the more than three and a half million soldiers, sailors and Marines slated to invade Japan. These forces were not only to come from the Pacific; First Army, which had pummeled its way from Normandy to the heart of Germany, and Eighth Air Force, based in England, were on the way as well. But morale was not good among veterans of the Ardennes, Guadalcanal, and other campaigns. As James Jones later wrote: "What it must have been like to some old-timer buck sergeant . . . [knowing] that he very likely had survived this far only to fall dead in the dirt of
Japan's Home Islands, hardly bears thinking about."

MacArthur's staff had twice come up with figures exceeding 100,000 casualties for the opening months of combat on the southern island of Kyushu, a figure which some historians largely succeeded in contrasting favorably- and quite mistakenly- with President Harry Truman's much-derided post-war statement that Marshall had advised him at Potsdam that casualties
from both the Kyushu and Honshu invasion operations could range from 250,000 to one million men.

Truman and Marshall were intimately familiar with losses in the Pacific during the previous year: over 200,000 casualties from wounds, fatigue and disease, plus 10,000 American dead and missing in the Marianas, 5,500 dead on and around Leyte, 9,000 dead during the Luzon campaign, 6,800 at Iwo Jima, 12,600 at Okinawa, and 2,000 killed in the unexpectedly vicious fighting on Peleliu. Both also knew that, save for some operations around New Guinea, real casualties were routinely outpacing estimates and the gap was widening. They also knew that while America always emerged victorious, operations often were not being completed as rapidly as planned- with all the added cost in blood and treasure that such lengthy campaigns entailed.

Leyte is a perfect example. Leyte was to the Luzon campaign what the Kyushu invasion was to the capture of Honshu's Kanto Plain and Tokyo, a preliminary operation to create a huge staging area. Today, we can recall MacArthur wading ashore triumphantly in the Philippines. But what Truman and Marshall knew only too well was that MacArthur was supposed to have retaken Leyte with four divisions and have eight fighter and bomber groups striking from the island within 45 days of the initial landings. However, nine divisions and twice as many days into the battle, only a fraction of that airpower was operational because of unexpected terrain conditions (and this on an island which the United States had occupied for over forty years). The fighting on the ground had not gone as planned. The Japanese even briefly isolated Fifth Air Force headquarters and also captured much of the Burauen airfield complex before reinforcements pushed them back into the jungle.

[clean]

On 29 July 1945, there came a stunning change to an earlier report on enemy strength on Kyushu. This update set alarm bells ringing in MacArthur's headquarters as well as Washington because it stated bluntly that the Japanese were rapidly reinforcing southern Kyushu and had increased troop strength from 80,000 to 206,000 men, quote: "with no end in sight." Finally, it warned that Japanese efforts were, quote: "changing the tactical and strategic situation sharply." While the breathless "no end in sight" claim turned out to be somewhat overstated, the confirmed figures were ominous enough for Marshall to ponder scraping the Kyushu operation altogether even though MacArthur maintained that it was still the best option available.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/giangrec.htm

[siquq]

I was married in Hiroshima! Great place!

[clean]

There was a giant Typhoon in early Oct of 1945. This would've mess up Allied operations to no end. Putting off the invasion of Honshu as far back as April 1946. Which would've welcomed another giant Typhoon.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Some of the Japanese were seeking a peaceful end to the war, not "The" Japanese. And these on terms favourable to them, not the unconditional surrender demanded by the allies.

There was a major power struggle going on in Japan between the Emperor and those in cabinet who wanted peace on any terms and the military aligned who wanted to go down fighting.

Peace was on the cards before the invasion would have occurred. As fanatical as some elements of Japanese society were at the time they were not stupid. Debate had been raging since 43 on trying to get out of a war with the US. Unfortunately for the Japanese those that favored peace were not in the majority.

Debate continued on throughout 44 and by early 45 the Prince Higashikuni Naruhiko reported to the Emperor that the war could not be won. However those that favoured destruction of Japan still clung to power.

When Prince Higashikuni Naruhiko became prime minister he was charged specifically with ending the war, demobilisation of the Japanese Armed forces and to ensure the Japanese people the Imperial Family was secure from the War Faction.

Prince Higashikuni Naruhiko, Prince Asaka, Prince Takamatsu, and former Prime Minister Konoe were also the ring leaders in the removal of Tojo as prime minister in 44.

[Hawaii_Light]

there was an amazing little documentry on this on National Geographic awhile back, it had to be the most insightful peice of work on the Pacific Theater i had ever seen or heard of to date.

it was incredaible well done and asked alot of questions and look at alot of things that people are ignoring. in the end i think it gave a great summery of what was really going in the pacific which i remeber clearly as which the war had bypassed all respect for humanity and although had started out in a materialistical sense ended up being a massive racial war of which all sides became entangled in an almost unsurpassed neglect for humanity.

and i mean it got as bad as the Americans thinking that the Japanese were completely subhuman. the Japanese believed everyone to be barbarians (and still kind of do). the dropping of the Atomic Bombs on both Nagasaki and Hiroshima were acts against the civilian population of Japan as well as acts against humanity in general. there is nothing sicker, more dishonorable then killing civilians intentionally and that is exactly what happened.

[Sneeker]

Been too far and seen too much for you to call me "sir."

Yeah Its Mr. Clean to you!

[kitatatsumi]

I read somewhere, cant remember where, that some 500,000 Purple Hearts were 'minted' in anticipation of Operation Downfall, and since the operation never went off, the Purple Hearts are still being issued today.
When I think of the fact that we still haven't given away all the Hearts intended for that invasion, even considering all the military operations since then, I have to look at the bombings as saving the lives of the people that I care about...unfortunately, I'm not sure if the numbers are true, but the illustration is clear.

Then I consider that, someone was going to nuke somebody by the end of that war. I'm just glad it was the US and not the other way around.

[James]

I think everyone has had their say. I find myself in agreement with American veterans from World War Two, who thought that the atom bomb saved their lives.

[WARPIG]

there was an amazing little documentry on this on National Geographic awhile back, it had to be the most insightful peice of work on the Pacific Theater i had ever seen or heard of to date.

it was incredaible well done and asked alot of questions and look at alot of things that people are ignoring. in the end i think it gave a great summery of what was really going in the pacific which i remeber clearly as which the war had bypassed all respect for humanity and although had started out in a materialistical sense ended up being a massive racial war of which all sides became entangled in an almost unsurpassed neglect for humanity.

and i mean it got as bad as the Americans thinking that the Japanese were completely subhuman. the Japanese believed everyone to be barbarians (and still kind of do). the dropping of the Atomic Bombs on both Nagasaki and Hiroshima were acts against the civilian population of Japan as well as acts against humanity in general. there is nothing sicker, more dishonorable then killing civilians intentionally and that is exactly what happened.

Hate to say it.. but War was handled that way. Nations went to war with other nations. The ability to strike cities as well as tactical targets was how things were done. Our present "Wars" seem only to be fought by our soldiers. Our nation is not involved other than being inconvenienced by the constant media coverage. Japan and Germany were trying to strike US soil but were not as successful. We all know how terrible the A bomb was.

The self loathing attitude you seem to display in your post just doesn't cut it however. Not only do you sound ignorant in your position but come across as insulting. Probably not your intent.. but you might want to get some perspective on the issue before posting about it. Two quotes come to mind.

It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. ~Robert E. Lee

And several versions of this one:

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt . ~ George Eliot

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.~ Abraham Lincoln (also attr. Confucius)

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.~ Mark Twain

Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding. ~ Bible, 'Proverbs' 17:28