Knesset (Israeli Parliament) panel to consider recognition of Armenian genocide.

[Ariha]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/968844.html

On January this year Turkish PM Mr Erdogan called Israeli anti-terror operations "genocide" and said that every time he asked his Israeli "friends" how many Israeli citizens got killed by kassam rockets "we do not get an answer". Obviously the last part of the sentence about his question is a blatant lie, but how´s that as an answer Mr. Erdogan?

[koalorka]

What goes around comes around.

[Ulytau]

Our Ambassador will visit to parliament and yours it will finish..

About Erdogan himself when he tryin play to some media and fans..Also when he startin to change agenda he doing big mistakes honestly we watchin him with havin fun about some issues..

PS : Also comments are enough to Haaretz for me too lol

[eskachig]

I don't really understand what exactly will change as a result of this recognition. Will UN sanction Turkey over something that happened a hundred years ago if enough countries recognize it as genocide?

[chris450]

nope,just more pressure on Turkey to recognise the Armenian genocide and everything that follows

[4X4Driver]

As long as Turkey does not recognize it...nothing will happen. It'll make Turks more nationalistic ...and maybe it'll (hopefully) teach Erdogan not to talk without thinking.

[gaijinsamurai]

Even if it's only symbolic, it's the right thing to do for the Israelis.

[LRPV]

nope,just more pressure on Turkey to recognise the Armenian genocide and everything that follows


??? As in financial claims by descendants of effected Armenians?

[deli_dumrul]

??? As in financial claims by descendants of effected Armenians?

Yes... First you:



11 New Plaintiffs Join $3 Billion Class Action Lawsuit Against New York
Life

Armenians from around the world are rallying support for the $3 billion
class action lawsuit against New York Life Insurance Company filed by
Glendale attorney Vartkes Yeghiayan. From Armenia, Argentina, France,
Australia, and other countries, Armenians around the world are volunteering
documents, information and support.

The 12 named Plaintiffs, led by Martin Marootian, filed suit against New
York Life on behalf of the thousands of Armenians whose grandparents and
great-grandparents owned New York Life policies that were never paid. In
the last two months, Yeghiayan and Marootian have ...


Then us. At least they will try. But it is not going to happen:



A $12 Billion history lesson

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/02/25/opinion/edryback.php

[chris450]

??? As in financial claims by descendants of effected Armenians?

maybe yes, i was reffering to the genocide of the rest of the Christian population mainly Greek Pontians
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Greek_Genocide)
speaking of which , a mass grave (http://www.iha.com.tr/haber/detay.aspx?nid=16188&cid=11) was discovered 3 days ago near Samsun ,someone has to answer for these atrocities

[4X4Driver]

maybe yes, i was reffering to the genocide of the rest of the Christian population mainly Greek Pontians

Mate...you also need to tell ppl that during the Greek invasion of Turkey, invading Greek forces asked the local Greek Pontians to create militias against the Turks in the country...so there was clashes due to this and ppl died from both sides.

Genocide - a cheap word

Greek genocide?

AFP further reported that "Greek historian Angelos Elefantis told AFP in Athens that he was shocked by the term "genocide," never used in official Greek history. 'This is stupidity,' he said."
Also the official Greek institute, the Asia Minor Historical Research Institute, for historical studies concerning Asia Minor, announced on February 18, that the events that took place during the 1920s "can never be termed as genocide. The incidents that took place at that time were due to the war."

http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/greek-gen.htm


speaking of which , a mass grave (http://www.iha.com.tr/haber/detay.aspx?nid=16188&cid=11) was discovered 3 days ago near Samsun ,someone has to answer for these atrocities

Older residents of that village says that there used to be a Greek church with a graveyard in that location.

But we should still wait for the invastigation results...after all, there were lots of Turks massacared in the same areas too.

Btw...can't we discuss anything without involving the Greek - Turkish issues here?

[4X4Driver]

Even if it's only symbolic, it's the right thing to do for the Israelis.

It will also become a very useful tool for already anti Israeli Erdogan in the domestic politics too...unfortunately..:-(

[chris450]

Mate...you also need to tell ppl that during the Greek invasion of Turkey, invading Greek forces asked the local Greek Pontians to create militias against the Turks in the country...so there was clashes due to this and ppl died from both sides.you need to check a map...Pontus is nowhere near the Aegean coast..we are talking about Amele Taburu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_battalion_%28Turkey%29) here a.k.a Labour Battalions ala Hitler structured on an ethnic base so dont you talk to me about "civilians form both sides"...preplaned ,carefully executed ,racial extermination..

check the pics here (http://www.network54.com/Forum/248068/thread/1206519055/last-1206588167/mass+graves+found+in+Pontos) and then tell me again this is a graveyard...very convenient

you live in denial,you should take example from the Germans and make peace with your history,millions of people died you cant keep hiding it under the carpet

USA Congress, Concurrent Resolution, September 9, 1997 (http://rs9.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.+Con.+Res.+148:)
on the systematic campaign to eradicate the ethnic Greek population in Asia Minor

[Ulytau]

Yeah yeah we livin in denial..Also every topics tryin to turnin this issues interestin isnt it? Isnt Erdogan invited and said lets establish a historical committe and open archives than going to Lahey.what Kocaryan said this issue is not historical but political.Also about the grave we seen this games again before there was a grave founded at Erzurum it was from Roman Empire times but some people tried to show this as a this issue..Its not about denial mate but Turkiye opened their archives about this issue also can i ask when Turkish Republic founded?Some deputies were laughing when they voting about this issues its easy to see how honest and serious they are..Maybe this link will answer to you right? http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/ about history my personal idea some people need to forget still about Megali Idea same for Armenians too did u check about their law constitution?Their plan is simple money openin border and wantin land from Turkiye..Sorry mate my ancestors from Black Sea region and i heard many things from them too..Still same typical games or words..We seen this before about PKK topics too..

[4X4Driver]

you need to check a map...Pontus is nowhere near the Aegean coast..we are talking about Amele Taburu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_battalion_%28Turkey%29) here Labour Battalions ala Hitler structured on an ethnic base so dont you talk to me about "civilians form both sides"...preplaned ,carefully executed ,racial extermination..

Plase don't put words in my mouth...no one said anything Pontus is being anywhere around the Aegean coast. What said was; invading Greek forces asked the Greek pontians to do their part in their areas (which was the Blacksea coast) while they advanced from the west coast towards the midts of Anatolia..


check the pics here (http://www.network54.com/Forum/248068/thread/1206519055/last-1206588167/mass+graves+found+in+Pontos) and then tell me again this is a graveyard...very convenient

That's what the older villagers says...it can still be the massacered Turks who lived in the area back then too. We'll see what the investigation results will say about it.


you live in denial,you should take example from the Germans and make peace with your history,millions of people died you cant keep hiding it under the carpet

Well...like the Greek scholars says in this article...it was a reaction to an action in a messy war and can not be compared with the Holocaust.

What happened to the Armenians and the Greeks because they took part in the attacks against Ottoman Empire, their own country, cannot be compared with what happened to the Jewish people, who were completely innocent. While most of the Armenian and Greek populations of the Ottoman Empire survived, almost all the Jewish population of Europe was wiped out.

http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/greek-gen.htm



USA Congress, Concurrent Resolution, September 9, 1997 (http://rs9.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c105:H.+Con.+Res.+148:)

on the systematic campaign to eradicate the ethnic Greek population in Asia Minor

Yes..we all know how powerful the Greek lobbies are in the USA.

[Migman]

Nonetheless, Simhon added that, "in the course of time this has become a politically charged issue between Armenians and Turks ? and Israel is not interested in taking a side."

I just loved that part of the article. Not interested in taking a side? Holocaust? Anyone? Has Simhon heard of a little concept called solidarity?

[gaijinsamurai]

Agreed. To a lot of Armenians, it is a total slap in the face that the government of Israel does not recognize the genocide inflicted upon them.

[Afro-European]

What difference 'd this recognition make?

[Migman]

What difference 'd this recognition make?

Using that logic, what difference does any recognition of a genocide/crime/massacre make? For that matter, why don't we just go ahead and "un-recognize" the Holocaust since according to your brilliant logic it just doesn't matter whether anyone recognizes it.

[chris450]

What difference 'd this recognition make?

a chap with a funny moustache once said : "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

historic memory prevents it from happening again...its not a coincidence that most of the times the same people that deny these hideous crimes advocate openly mass extermination ,"relocation" etc

Jews Armenians and Greeks (civilians in all cases) all "got was coming to them" for x reasons according to this logic

x beeing some bull**** excuse like they controlled the banks /trade/revolted/worked with the foreign enemy etc etc ..in reality being only persecuted because of their ethnic backround in pursuit of a "pure" nation ,a cleansed country

[4X4Driver]

Jews Armenians and Greeks (civilians in all cases) all "got was coming to them" for x reasons according to this logic



Ah..c'mon mate....It's obvious it's the hatered for the Turks that makes you benefit and get interested in these kind of things....nothing else.

Greek parliament speaker accuses Israel of 'genocide'
Sun Mar 31,11:16 AM ET

http://rd.yahoo.com/alerts/email/news/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl (http://rd.yahoo.com/alerts/email/news/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl)
=story&u=/ap/20020331/ap_wo_en_ge/greece_mideast_1


ATHENS, Greece - The speaker of Greece's parliament accused Israel Sunday
of committing genocide against the Palestinian people and called for
international intervention to protect them.

"This is a barbaric attack on a defenseless people, whose only wish is to
live on the land of their forefathers," Apostolos Kaklamanis said. "The
Greek people, the government, political parties and parliament condemn this
genocide taking place in Palestine."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/balkanhr/message/3775

[chris450]

good luck trying to divert the attention

[4X4Driver]

good luck trying to divert the attention

You've already done that asa you brought your "Historical Greek issues" into this thread that had nothing to do with it to begin with.

[KoTeMoRe]

For the Sake of sanity, it's SHOAH. Holocaut implies a guilt as it is a ritual sacrifice by immolation.

Welcome to power politics.

[chris450]

You've already done that asa you brought your "Historical Greek issues" into this thread that had nothing to do with it to begin with.

the Armenian genocide is interconnected with the extrermination of all Christian populations of Asia Minor ,they all suffered the same fate in the same exact way, death marches and labour battalions

and ofcourse the denial is the same too

[BPEL]

I hope it passes. Hats off on the recognition by Israel.

Glad to see the recognition is gaining more momentum.

[Ulytau]

the Armenian genocide is interconnected with the extrermination of all Christian populations of Asia Minor ,they all suffered the same fate in the same exact way, death marches and labour battalions

and ofcourse the denial is the same too


Hmmm we seen how they caring about populations at 1990s about ATAKA issue and Dead Island Belene too..There is an autonomous religious place in Greece cannot remember the name sorry but one day if you visit Priest of the Church will show you very important thing which signed from Fatih Sultan Mehmet..

I gave a website before also site have answers too about this issues..Cause easy to see many things tryin to turn about Muslim&Christian thing especially in these days its looking like it works..

When deputies are voting about this issue they were really having fun and laughing..Easy to see how serious they are..

But same dudes never speak about what they did aganist to Protestants..

My personal idea some people need to forget about Sevres..Cause it went to history garbage years ago.. :)

[4X4Driver]

the Armenian genocide is interconnected with the extrermination of all Christian populations of Asia Minor ,they all suffered the same fate in the same exact way, death marches and labour battalions

and ofcourse the denial is the same too

This Greek scholar and others says otherwise...and let's not forget the population exchange of up to a million ppl from each side...which I see you carefuly avoided to mention so far.



"The Christians, who were living in the area supported the Greek invasion of the Anatolia in 1919 and many of them joined the Greek army to fight against the Turks, when they realise that the Turks were wining the war they fled the country," Nakracas said.

Nakracas, referring to a study carried out by the Selanico Macedonian Studies Institute, also pointed out that it was not the Turkish government but it was Eleftherios Venizelos who insisted on a forced population exchange between the two countries.

Indeed the decision of Costas Simitis to remove the word genocide from the decree prepared by Evangelos Venizelos, saved the Greeks from a certain embarrassment because it is recorded in the 1923 Laussane Treaty how the Greeks paid compensation to Turkey for the horrific atrocities committed against the Turks by the Greek army during its invasion of Western Anatolia.

Taking advantage of the devastation that the Turkish nation was in, with the support of Britain, Greeks invaded Western Turkey. They pillaged and burned the villages in their path, thousands of Turkish civilians were massacred; burning people their homes and rape was a common practice.

As Dr. Nakracas said, the Christians living in the area joined the Greek army and took part in the fighting against the Turkish army defending its own country and took part in the untold atrocities committed during the Greek invasion. When, under the leadership of Ataturk, the Turkish army started to win the war against the Greek army, these Christians fled the country together with the Greek invaders, burning Izmir, the most westerly Turkish city, on their way out.

During the Lausanne negotiations, the atrocities by the Greek forces against the Turkish people and the damages caused were registered in international law. Compensation for the actions of the Greek army and troops were discussed in Lausanne for months. The Allies also agreed that Greece had to pay compensation to Turkey.

Greek negotiator Eleftherios Venizelos, claiming that his country did not have any money, requested this condition to be rejected. He discussed the issue over and over again with Ismet Pasha and even threatened the allies, led by Britain, by signing a separate peace agreement with Turkey. The issue of compensation was a cause for tough negotiations. For a while, reaching an agreement in Lausanne was in jeopardy due to the arguments concerning the compensation.

Greece penniless because of the war she caused left the Karaagac region in Edirne to Turkey. Karaagac is the compensation for the war. The protocol consisting of only one article is among the additional Lausanne protocols. Greece was pleased to exchange the high burden of compensation for Karaagac at the time.

http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/greek-gen.htm

[deli_dumrul]

This Greek scholar and others says otherwise...and let's not forget the population exchange of up to a million ppl from each side...which I see you carefuly avoided to mention so far.



http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/greek-gen.htm

Funny isn't it, how he tries argue how we tried to wipe out ALL Christians. We had Christians in the army, Christians all over the country (they did not even wore special identifiers and did not try to escape unless they were in a war zone) and it is compared to Holocaust.

Of the 5,191,000 total civilian deaths (Central Powers) during WW1, 4,200,000 are Ottoman civilians (including all minorities, Armenian, Assyrian, etc). Subtract the minority numbers and calculate the Turkish civilian losses. Somebody must have been running a meat grinder on the other side too. Genocide my a$$.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

[4X4Driver]

Funny isn't it, how he tries argue how we tried to wipe out ALL Christians. We had Christians in the army, Christians all over the country (they did not even wore special identifiers and did not try to escape unless they were in a war zone) and it is compared to Holocaust.

Of the 5,191,000 total civilian deaths (Central Powers) during WW1, 4,200,000 are Ottoman civilians (including all minorities, Armenian, Assyrian, etc). Subtract the minority numbers and calculate the Turkish civilian losses. Somebody must have been running a meat grinder on the other side too. Genocide my a$$.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Really...no one wonders what happened to the millions of Turks on those lands.

[KoTeMoRe]

Hmmm we seen how they caring about populations at 1990s about ATAKA issue and Dead Island Belene too..There is an autonomous religious place in Greece cannot remember the name sorry but one day if you visit Priest of the Church will show you very important thing which signed from Fatih Sultan Mehmet..

I gave a website before also site have answers too about this issues..Cause easy to see many things tryin to turn about Muslim&Christian thing especially in these days its looking like it works..

When deputies are voting about this issue they were really having fun and laughing..Easy to see how serious they are..

But same dudes never speak about what they did aganist to Protestants..

My personal idea some people need to forget about Sevres..Cause it went to history garbage years ago.. :)

Nothing goes to the history's dustbin...

[Ulytau]

Nothing goes to the history's dustbin...

About Sevres yes with Lousanne mate but easy to see some people are still dreaming i think.

[KoTeMoRe]

About Sevres yes with Lousanne mate but easy to see some people are still dreaming i think.

You might rethink about that...like Serbians did. Nothing is wasted.

[Ulytau]

You might rethink about that...like Serbians did. Nothing is wasted.

Its looking like we learned very much thing from our Freedom War than too..

I know nothing is wasted also if they dont forget,they will forget after some actions :)

[KoTeMoRe]

Its looking like we learned very much thing from our Freedom War than too..

I know nothing is wasted also if they dont forget,they will forget after some actions :)


I'm always flabbergasted by these statements. Haven't you heard you can't kill ideas with bullets. Or...wasn't this thread bout genocidep-).

[Ulytau]

I'm always flabbergasted by these statements. Haven't you heard you can't kill ideas with bullets. Or...wasn't this thread bout genocidep-).

Who said with bullet mate..

Also i gave link about this issue too Turkiye invited for historian committe for going Lahey and for openin archives why there is no serious answer to us about this issue if its historical issue than?

[Pars]

I hope this passes. The Armenians have my support and sympathy.

[deli_dumrul]

Who said with bullet mate..

Also i gave link about this issue too Turkiye invited for historian committe for going Lahey and for openin archives why there is no serious answer to us about this issue if its historical issue than?

The Armenians can not open their archives, they know what will happen if they do. Ours is open since the 80s. One of the avid supporters of these claims, Safarian, copied 6000-7000 documents before he was kicked out for abuse.

People trying to draw parallels between the Holocaust and these events do not even realize a state sponsored eradication of people requires allocation of funds, orders, etc just like the Nazis had. Turkish archives, on the other hand, are full of orders from Istanbul to protect the minorities. I would love to see what will come out from Armenian archives.

At the end of the day, I think it would be a mistake to discuss this stuff at all at Lahey. Instead, we should counter by other political means, if need arises.

[KoTeMoRe]

Who said with bullet mate..

Also i gave link about this issue too Turkiye invited for historian committe for going Lahey and for openin archives why there is no serious answer to us about this issue if its historical issue than?

Then excuse my hasty conclusions. Accept my sincere apologies.

However I should have kept my own line, historical disputes is what makes history. Thus in one sense or another the balance will swing.

Again sorry for my post.

[Peris]

Genocide my a$$.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties



it's a conspiracy against Turkey. The US consul in Smyrna says genocides happened, the French diplomatic archives say the same, the US ambassador in Turkey MORGENTHAU says the same, US missionaries in Smyrna testified the events.


CONSPIRACY
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7720/tinfoilhat2cy2.jpg

[deli_dumrul]

George Horton, US Consul to Smyrna:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Horton



Today, George Horton is best remembered for his book about the events leading up to and during the fire. The book was published in 1926, and its title, The Blight of Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blight_of_Asia), refers to what he considered the abominable behavior of the Turks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_people), and by extension, all of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam).


Now there is a connection.



By the time of publication Horton had resigned his diplomatic commission, and he wrote strictly in the capacity of a private citizen, drawing on his own observations and those of the people he quotes. His account remains as controversial as the fire itself.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Horton#_note-2) According to local London councilor Brian Coleman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Coleman): "George Horton was a man of letters and United States Consul in Greece and Turkey at a time of social and political change. He writes of the re-taking of Smyrna by the Turkish army in September 1922. His account, however, goes beyond the blame and events to a demonization of Muslims, in general, and of Turks, in particular. In several of his novels, written more than two decades before the events of September 1922, he had already identified the Turk as the stock-in-trade villain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villain) of Western civilization. In his account of Smyrna, he writes not as historian, but as publicist."[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Horton#_note-3)


:bash:

Note to self: to get a good and fair idea about the American culture, buy and read Osama's books.

[deli_dumrul]

I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are being detained for trial in Malta. The reports seen made mention of only two names of the Turkish officials in question—those of Sabit bey and Suleyman Faik Pasha — and even in these cases the accounts given were confined to the personal opinions of the writers; no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.

British Archives: PRO—F. 0. 371/
6504/E.8515 R.C. Craigie, British
Charge d’Affairs at Washington, to
Lord Curzon, Telegram No 722 of
July 13, 1921


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_Tribunals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malta_exiles

After failure to come up with any evidence, all 150 Ottoman officers were returned after 2.5 years.

[4X4Driver]

it's a conspiracy against Turkey. The US consul in Smyrna says genocides happened, the French diplomatic archives say the same, the US ambassador in Turkey MORGENTHAU says the same, US missionaries in Smyrna testified the events.


CONSPIRACY


hmm.."sources" which happenes to be the enemies of Turks back then...how convinient :)


Treaty of Sèvres

(Aug. 10, 1920), post-World War I (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9110198/World-War-I) pact between the victorious Allied powers and representatives of the government of Ottoman Turkey. The treaty abolished the Ottoman Empire (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9111081/Ottoman-Empire) and obliged Turkey to renounce all rights over Arab Asia and North Africa. The pact also provided for an independent Armenia, for an autonomous Kurdistan, and for a Greek presence in eastern Thrace and on…

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9066977/Treaty-of-Sevres

[deli_dumrul]

Did I tell you George Horton was married to a Greek...

[Peris]

Did I tell you George Horton was married to a Greek...


it took a little time and search but finally you came up with a serious argument:) . How about him? Married to a Greek too?


Pamuk's statements

The criminal charges against Pamuk resulted from remarks he made during an interview in February 2005 with the Swiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss) publication Das Magazin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Magazin), a weekly supplement to a number of Swiss daily newspapers: the Tages-Anzeiger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tages-Anzeiger), the Basler Zeitung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basler_Zeitung), the Berner Zeitung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berner_Zeitung) and the Solothurner Tagblatt (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Solothurner_Tagblatt&action=edit&redlink=1). In the interview, Pamuk stated, "Thirty thousand Kurds, and a million Armenians were killed in these lands and nobody dares to talk about it."



the way i see it we have three cases:


first some Turks don't believe that massacres were made

second, they know it happened but they are afraid to accept it so Turks won't be embarrased

third, they know it happened and silently justify the massacres.


i wish at least that the MP net Turkish friends are belonging to the first and secons cases.

[Peris]

we need a new thread with bibliography about the Greek and Armenian HOLOCAUSTS and the opposite bibliography from Turkish side.

[KoTeMoRe]

we need a new thread with bibliography about the Greek and Armenian HOLOCAUSTS and the opposite bibliography from Turkish side.


I don't remember cremations and gas chambers...

[Peris]

I don't remember cremations and gas chambers...


probably the most stupid comment ever said in MP NET:roll:

[KoTeMoRe]

probably the most stupid comment ever said in MP NET:roll:


Holocaust Peris read about it...the irony is that holocaust is greek as term.:roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

[chris450]

whats the difference? gas chambers or death marches ,the end result is still the same...racial extremination aka geno-cide

http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/feature_images/armenian_genocide2.jpg

[deli_dumrul]

whats the difference? gas chambers or death marches ,the end result is still the same...racial extremination aka geno-cide

http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/feature_images/armenian_genocide2.jpg

Incorrect. Only Armenians in the war zones (eastern region) were deported. Can you say the same thing for Jews during WWII in Germany?

[Ulytau]

whats the difference? gas chambers or death marches ,the end result is still the same...racial extremination aka geno-cide

http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/feature_images/armenian_genocide2.jpg

Changin location for making ''geno-cide'' also payin for it when we are in war and havin seriously economical problems also there is soldier for coverin them aganist who will attack to them from villages for revenge..

I said before..

Cause we seen about this some issue when its about us parliaments can write history..When it was about Algeria same person was saying ''Historian must care about history''

How honest is it right?

We invited everyone for openin archives..

Also for going LAHEY too..

Support terror,kill many civilians and after play as an innocent one interestin isnt it?

Still same thing and never changed in history i think...

http://www.youtube.com/v/PUf4y-0HC3Y&hl=en

This video will be useful for everyone too..

[deli_dumrul]

the way i see it we have three cases:


first some Turks don't believe that massacres were made

second, they know it happened but they are afraid to accept it so Turks won't be embarrased

third, they know it happened and silently justify the massacres.


I had read this 5-6 years ago in an Armenian forum. The original was like this:



There are three types of Turks:

1. Good: Turks who accept the genocide
2. Bad: Turks who accept the killings but argue it was not a genocide
3. Ugly: Turks who say they would act the same way

[Peris]

Holocaust Peris read about it...the irony is that holocaust is greek as term.:roll:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust


thanks for teaching me Greek.

the executed Jews by the Nazis are a part of the Jewish holocaust or you don't consider them holocaust victims because they were not exterminated in gas chambers?

btw the Greek word for the holocaust which is OLOKAFTOMA is commonly used by Greek fighters in their memoirs of the 1821 revolution.

[KoTeMoRe]

whats the difference? gas chambers or death marches ,the end result is still the same...racial extremination aka geno-cide

http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/feature_images/armenian_genocide2.jpg

The result is not the same, the logics were not the same. I've got no sympathy for the Turkish side on this aspect, but god gratious don't mix apples and oranges.



Racial extermination is one sort of genocide. And here the issue is that both sides are ethnically similar...hence the way armenians had blended.

One can have genocidary intents and fail, another may have a heavy handed policy, in specific conditions and be named genocidary.

Once again I'd like to recall the Kosovo case.

Please let's all keep our sense and stop throwing politically motivated arguments to eachother. After all even if they recognise it, the issue will not drastically change. The armenians consider these events as the Hebraic Community. A giant nightmare and the starting point of a communal entity, the turkish will still recall the same historical background...and so on.

If the Knesset recognizes it, or not, that's another matter. That I would like discussed (matter of on topic debate).

But I do thoroughly understand your viewpoint chris. As such I'm hesitant to "pick a side".

BTW good evening sir.p-)

[achilles]

probably the most stupid comment ever said in MP NET:roll:

quoted for truth.



Good to see that the Israeli Parliament is on a good direction on this one.

[KoTeMoRe]

quoted for truth.



Good to see that the Israeli Parliament is on a good direction on this one.


Thank you for insulting me.

Peris:

That's why the term Shoah is used by the Hebraic community and any knowledgeable person. As for being in agood direction, some really don't get it.

In a world of opinions and facades, human assesments don't really matter.

[chris450]

Incorrect. Only Armenians in the war zones (eastern region) were deported. Can you say the same thing for Jews during WWII in Germany?


lol ,mate an illegal immigrant catching a flight home is deported..Native inhabitants that are marched for 3000 km with no food or water until they drop dead are not deported ,they are assasinated

they ones that were slaughtered in their houses were much luckier ,their death was a quick one

@Kotemore

the above "deportation"comment demonstrates why this is not some minor legality issue , a problem of definition or a political debate..we would be having the exact same debate if a Nazi claimed that the Jews were only given a bath ,and its not their fault they were allergic to Zyclon B

both the result and the logic remain unchanged..the only thing that changes are the means

my greetings :)

[achilles]

Thank you for insulting me.

You insulted yourself. The term "Holocaust" is not exclusively tied to practices like gas chambers or cremations. Its the result that counts, not the means.

Do "death marches" sign up as genocidal practices to you? To me...absolutely, and when hunders of thousands of civilians die like this i am quite confident in calling that...a holocaust.

[Mackie]

Sorry to say that. But reading a Turkish-Greek discussions annoys like step in dog pooh.

Push Greek out of the EU and build an wall around the Turks and Greeks.
The just call it "Nationalistic zone" and wait some years. Then the kids should be friends.

The hateful debate between those, seems to be the basis of the next genocide. Think about it.

[KoTeMoRe]

You insulted yourself. The term "Holocaust" is not exclusively tied to practices like gas chambers or cremations. Its the result that counts, not the means.

Do "death marches" sign up as genocidal practices to you? To me...absolutely, and when hunders of thousands of civilians die like this i am quite confident in calling that...a holocaust.

The result? What result? Systematic extermination of armenians? By the very notion of genocide, they would have all been dead by now, if the Turkish policy was one of EXTERMINATION. No one halted it like in the Jewish case. The Armenian genocide was a very hard handed policy going wrong.

The SHOAH was a master plan made by a maximal Authority, to EXTERMINATE a whole religious community. Had the ongoing War turned into Germany's favor, we'd be here speaking of the Jewish community in the past tense.


Please keep in mind those realities, before simply stepping into Turkish hate posts.

Effing Region, even when you're trying your best people just start you on. I'm out for a coffie.

Pardon my loss of temper. Greetings none the less achilles.

[Afro-European]

Using that logic, what difference does any recognition of a genocide/crime/massacre make? For that matter, why don't we just go ahead and "un-recognize" the Holocaust since according to your brilliant logic it just doesn't matter whether anyone recognizes it.

Slow down man,don't exceed your speed.The US tried to recognize that same genocide 4 months ago but backed down when Turkey threatened to not allow US aircrafts to use its southern airspace(bordering Iraq).
What didn't the US forge ahead with that then?

[Afro-European]

a chap with a funny moustache once said : "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

historic memory prevents it from happening again...its not a coincidence that most of the times the same people that deny these hideous crimes advocate openly mass extermination ,"relocation" etc

Jews Armenians and Greeks (civilians in all cases) all "got was coming to them" for x reasons according to this logic

x beeing some bull**** excuse like they controlled the banks /trade/revolted/worked with the foreign enemy etc etc ..in reality being only persecuted because of their ethnic backround in pursuit of a "pure" nation ,a cleansed country

I got your point.But check this out: The US tried to recognize the Armenian genocide while there still are many states in the US that haven't recognized slavery.Do you understand that logic?

[chris450]

Sorry to say that. But reading a Turkish-Greek discussions annoys like step in dog pooh.

Push Greek out of the EU and build an wall around the Turks and Greeks.
The just call it "Nationalistic zone" and wait some years. Then the kids should be friends.

The hateful debate between those, seems to be the basis of the next genocide. Think about it.

words of wisdom coming from layed-back Central Europe..neighbouring France ,Holland Belgium and Austria..

you either condemn the mass extermination of civilians based solely on ethnic backround,or you dont...now think about that

infact think about it twice given the German involvement pre and during WWI,an excellent subject to contemplate upon inbetween beerwurst and saumagen

[achilles]

The result? What result? Systematic extermination of armenians? By the very notion of genocide, they would have all been dead by now, if the Turkish policy was one of EXTERMINATION. No one halted it like in the Jewish case.

I am afraid you got it wrong there. The very notion of genocide suggests the systematic ATTEMPT to eradicate whole groups of people. The very notion of genocide does not imply everybody must perish in order for a this attempt to be labelled as genocide.

14 years ago in Rwanda, not all Tutsis were massacred, but please go on and convince me that that was not a genocide.


The Armenian genocide was a very hard handed policy going wrong.

I am not sure what you mean here.


Please keep in mind those realities, before simply stepping into Turkish hate posts.

Dont play the "hatred" card on me cause it wont work. I am stating the obvious and praise the Israeli government for being more flexible regarding a historical fact: the Christian Holocaust inflicted by the Ottoman empire, part of which was the tragic Armenian Genocide.



Pardon my loss of temper. Greetings none the less achilles.

Greetings to you...

[achilles]

Sorry to say that. But reading a Turkish-Greek discussions annoys like step in dog pooh.

Push Greek out of the EU and build an wall around the Turks and Greeks.
The just call it "Nationalistic zone" and wait some years. Then the kids should be friends.

The hateful debate between those, seems to be the basis of the next genocide. Think about it.

You are a genious, buddy. You are wasting your talent by not being in charge of Europe's foreign policy.

[Peris]

build an wall around the Turks and Greeks.



i have one other proposal. Buy a dog cage and get inside. Then give your PC and mp net password to your dog to continue posting.:)

[m.i.t]

I don't remember cremations and gas chambers...


also no one has seen nazis in Turkey all times...

But we know some ones who assisted to nazis for ethnic jewish cleansing creamtions and gas chambers in ww2 in balcans...




http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/History/Portraits/Metaxas2.jpg

[achilles]

M.I.T this is a serious allegation, which, if not consolidated via credible historical sources, will be escalated to the moderators.


On edit: and you should be more careful, given that you are coming from a country whose past has been irrefutably genocidal against various groups of people.

[Ulytau]

Yeah yeah..

Whats about terror support to Achilles aganist Turkiye?

Said before and saying..Archives are ready and open but Armenian Government do not let openin archives especially which older than 50 years ago interestin isnt it?

Still same games same words oh i rememberin who makin propaganda about us was saying to at American Parliament ''Do not sell missiles to Turkiye they gonna use them aganist Kurds'' yup we gonna use land to air missile aganist land aims..Interestin isnt it?

Whats the next?

Van,Erzurum,Izmir,Istanbul or Thrace or something?

2-3 days ago Greece lost a LawSuit can you guys remember it was about what?

Cause about this issues we have a really easy thing..

We all ''governments'' can go to LAHEY with openin archives is it really hard issue if you trust your archives than?

Oh true..

If you dont trust your archives it will be really hard issue..

So sorry..

Or you guys can open a topic ''Lets Flame to Turkiye and Turks'' we all can be relax about it too i think right?

[chris450]

But we know some ones who assisted to nazis for ethnic jewish cleansing creamtions and gas chambers in ww2 in balcans.

ROTFL !

if i am not mistaken during the Metaxas period the Italians were kicked back into Albania (attempted invasion 1940)after fearce battles and the Nazis met some solid resistance up in the Metaxa line (p-)) forts... when in the same time others remained "neutral"....

i .e thanks for a good laugh! :-D

Metaxas Line: the Greek fortress that delayed the Nazi's (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78728&highlight=valtrex)
Operation Marita: The German invasion of Greece (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114936)
October 28, 1940 (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=122512&highlight=valtrex)
The Greeks in WWII (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=122630&highlight=valtrex)